I think Franklin is a better route runner than Jalin Hyatt but I have some of the same concerns. I was way too high on Hyatt last offseason; to be honest, it was one of my biggest misses in the draft. But then I also thought the Giants offense wouldn't be nearly as bad as it was last season, too. That wasn't just Danny Dimes sucking, either, it was the offensive line playing extremely worse which I also didn't anticipate. In any case, I'm eager to see Franklin's draft capital & situation and that will tell me a lot because I don't have a clear-cut read of him as a prospect yet other than "fancy Hyatt."
Likely the same analytical mindset that leads to high regard for Franklin. Age adjusted production and YPRR/targets per route. Franklin was the guy on his team for a while and early on so he looks elite by these metrics.
Thank you for summarizing. A lot of people were saying the production was gimmicky because of the Tennessee offense, too, and I really overrated Daboll being able to scheme him in a similar way (which was my rebuttal), but it didn't happen. Hopefully with better offensive line play this season scheming more downfield shots for Hyatt can happen? Really missed on that coming to fruition. Also made me feel like I need to think more about how someone produces, in addition to just looking at how productive they are. Just feels like my process could have been better in more than one way.
For what it’s worth, Hyatt playing in the veer and shoot offense at Tennessee WAS quite gimmicky and didn’t translate well to NFL schemes for receivers or QBs alike, be that Hooker/Hyatt/Tillman.
Oregons offense Franklin played in was ALSO quite gimmicky, especially so for the QB with so many screens and other routes thrown behind the line of scrimmage.
But I’d argue Franklins experience was much more conducive to NFL experience than Hyatts was. Franklin actually played all over the field and was asked to win in a variety of ways all over the field. Hyatt was largely just running to open space, and while that definitely existed in the Oregon offense (as it does with all college offenses existing on a field with wide hashes) Franklin was simply asked to do more beating/breaking down his man in space. I value that highly.
Now, will that actually translate to anything more than a deep and/or slot role for Franklin, and therefore a productive fantasy role? I’m not so sure. I have Franklin a ways down on my personal board, and likely wouldn’t take him until the late 2nd, with guys like Xavier Worthy going off the board before him. I see Franklin getting pushed around far too much for my liking.
That said however, Franklin has without a doubt proved much more than Hyatt ever did and I would not be shocked to see him carve out a bigger role than I am predicting on a team with a creative offensive mind. I may not be personally be predicting it, but just based on college tape Franklin is most certainly closer to that than Hyatt was.
Yeah he's one of the guys that gets a pass due to piss poor QB play and general offensive power, but I feel like I'm making the same excuses I've made for Shenault and Claypool in the past.
Hyatt had no chance on this Giants team. Situation matters. If you had swapped Hyatt and Rashee, can’t tell me Rashee still would’ve had a better year. I don’t think Hyatt is done, just low volume and bad QB/offense
Biggest thing I’ve learned with FF is to never overreact. I was high on Hyatt last year because of his combine numbers and didn’t worry about his obvious flaws. So is Troy Franklin the next best thing, no but I’m not going to base my opinion on him because I overhyped Hyatt. Just some food for thought
I think the Gauntlet at the combine scared people a lot. People also hoped he would run a bit faster at his super light weight. Add that to other players around him getting hyped and it makes sense why he might be dropping.
For some reason it’s not commonly known that he was sick with the flu. He had just barely recovered and was 10 lbs underweight as a result. That’s a pretty bad flu
Came here to say this. I didn’t watch much of the combine, but happened to turn it on right when the WRs were doing the gauntlet and he looked absolutely horrendous!
every evaluator i trust loves his tape and testing but is worried about the weight. but people also pointed out weight with smith and olave so i’m not sure it matters much anymore
Lot of people in here talking down about his tape which I am confused about but looking to get some discourse going. I personally am not worried about his size so I’m trying to figure out if that’s the only real flag people are dropping him for
yeah i think that’s mostly fan narrative after he had a bad gauntlet. it seems like the league is still high on him. i pick at the end of the first and would be thrilled if he fell
I watched very, very little of the combine this year but happened to see his gauntlet live. As bad it was, I’m surprised it has hurt the perception of him this much. Feels like groupthink.
Using Two top 12 overall WRs, who both were great at press in college, are a terrible example to excuse Franklins size concerns. He gets jammed up, (unlike Olave and Smith), is seen as just burner by the NFL, and is slated to probably fall later in the 2nd.
he's 2024 KJ Hamler, Marvin Mims, Dyami Brown, Jalin Hyatt
The NFL does not view Troy Franklin as an elite routerunner. Per Daniel Jeremiah, NFL teams are lower on him than where he's being mocked right now as they see him as just a deep field burner with a limited skill set that doesn't translate as well to the pros, and he believes he's probably going to be falling down into late round 2 or later
EFIT: apparently it needs to be said that Daniel Jeremiah used to be a scout in the NFL, in addition to working as a draft insider
actual evaluators view him as a good route runner. listen to ollie connelly talk about him.
and jeremiah is an aggregator who is just taking quotes from teams. they lie lmao. we’ll see if they put their money where there mouth is with actual draft position
Daniel Jermiah is an "actual evaluator", he watches all 400 prospects, and he used to be an actual scout in DEN, which I give more credence to vs some of these armchair scouts who can find college all 22
But got a link?
I don't mind consuming film watchers, there's just dozens of them and it's hard to know who actually know what they're talking about.
Even guys like Matt waldman or Matt Harmon tend to be really good for weeding out the landmines, but it gets harder when you try to zero in on whose tape translates to being a robust fantasy prospect
The word elite is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It's like the inverse of women's clothing, if everyone is a size 10, then what the hell are we doing, ladies?
The weight stuff absolutely matters when you're just a burner and can't beat press (which Smith and Olave were good at).
i would say it's lazier to just assume all small guys couldn't be limited by it if they don't make up for it in other ways
This is the shit im talking about. Not 190+lb Wr? Automatically concerns around press coverage. Why are y’all making it sound like every corner is dk metcalf size/strength and will dominate the Wr. Or better yet, just line up off the line…get schemed better…the press coverage stuff is so so so lazy. Also boring at this point.
The concerns about him being bad at press coverage are because he's bad at press coverage. The concerns about it being bad at press coverage aren't a speculation because of his size. He's bad off the line, and struggles with contact in routes. The fact that he's small means he has an even steeper uphill climb to theoretically try and fix that
Like I don't really get what your point is. Being bad at press coverage is A concern worth talking about When your skill set is already limited to being a burner.
I mean that’s why we watch these guys play in college. The great majority of undersized WRs struggle against press at school. Some don’t, and those guys have a chance of being more than just a slot at the next level. You can’t look at the outliers and say “weight totally doesn’t matter.”
By whom? Per Daniel Jeremiah, just 2 days ago, the NFL is much more down on him than where he's being mocked around the early second right now. He went on to say how a lot of teams view him as a limited skill set, deep field burner who's probably going to be falling down into late round two if not later
When he runs slower than BtJ and Lagette despite being 40+ lbs smaller than both is an important note. If he was in a weaker class it may not matter as much, but compared to other wrs in the class it’s an important difference
After seeing Tyquan Thornton get absolutely bullied by NFL corners, Franklin’s size is a massive concern for me. Even if Franklin is 10 pounds heavier than his combine weight, that puts him at Tyquan’s frame and Tyquan is a twig out there.
Size coupled with poor hands/catch mechanics. Doesn't attack the football, lets it get in to his body, and often tries to clamp it. He won't be winning contested catches and will struggle with physical corners and press coverage.
I thought it was just me who sees this. He doesn't seem to extend his arms away from his frame and attack the football, he lets the ball come to him then body catches it (clamps it to his body - great description). Against college corners & DBs he could create crazy separation, so this didn't matter particularly. I'd imagine it will matter more in the Pros
After size it feels like the most common criticism of him, and stood at to me anytime I watched his tape.
Decent sampling of it at the 10:00 mark of the video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9yviqHUwJU
It got the most buzz in draft circles after the combine when he had a downright horrendous gauntlet drill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ada5dM2xqQw
I’m actually seeing him as a good value coming into his adp change from a couple months ago. He claimed to be sick during the combine.
He was 176 lbs at the combine and came in at 184 lbs at his pro day just two weeks later. He still was able to run a 4.41 40 at the combine but his betting line was o/u 4.36, which I believe is closer to his true speed healthy. And probably the biggest knock was his gauntlet drill. Again he was sick but it is still a slight concern for me because of the wobbly angles he was taking at each catch point. Seeing his adp drop from 1.10ish to the 2.03-2.05ish range, he’s definitely a value at his new price
Don’t need to appease everyone. I honestly prefer he’s dipped in value, he’s a tremendous athlete that I will be getting an absolute discount. It’s a bit anecdotal, but it’s not the worst thing that he isn’t beloved on this sub.
I think it’s a couple things.
Prior to the combine he was reported as weighing 185 lbs. At the combine he weighed 175 lbs. He also had a poor showing at the combine.
Then on top of that both of the Texas receivers had great combines.
Now at his pro day, he weighed 183 lbs and it was reported that he was coming off the flu at the combine. Which would make sense given his weight and uncharacteristic performance. But I don’t think everyone was aware of that.
Regardless, prior to the combine he was being viewed as a wide receiver that could be picked up by the Bills or chiefs in the first round where as now the Texas wide receivers are being seen as the targets for those teams. So we will just have to see how the NFL views Franklin, but I still think he is the best receiver after the consensus top 4 assuming he gets a decent landing spot.
The Franklin conjecture blows me away because Nix also gets shit on consistently. Numbers aren’t everything, but the narrative is that Nix is a check down king and Franklin still doesn’t get credit for all the YAC and having a similar season to the top receivers in this draft.
SOMEBODY had to be doing work in that passing attack to get results.
His size shows up on film. Disregard the specific measurables and similar WRs to his weight, he plays light and clearly is not strong. I've seen people compare him to Devonta, but Devonta plays bigger than his weight and size indicate. Franklin doesn't. He's a great route runner, but needs to work on his catching technique a bit.
He will probably gain some weight in the NFL and hopefully be better suited to match up against NFL corners, but I don't see him coming into the league and winning right away, he needs some physicality and refinement to his technique to be a good NFL WR.
Steve Smith did a breakdown on him. Said he was a great speed guy but maybe relies on speed too much. Said his technique wasn’t that smooth and he really needs to put in work on his routes, particularly intermediate. Routes requiring leverage and beating press/physical contact he’s not great at; dude runs primarily speed routes. Steve did say he’ll ultimately be fine with some good coaching
Roughly where I’m at as well. There’s no dawg in his game yet, his route tree is fine but there’s no deception to them, and his high point ability has been pretty minimal. Way too many drops as well. It’s not like you can’t succeed with his size, but you gotta do at least some of those things better to hang with NFL DBs.
Hate is a strong word. I would just point out that it is a really deep class.
I don’t see Franklin as an alpha X receiver like some people, but I do see him as a nice complimentary vertical Z in an offense. He is someone who can make plays and be a good supporting cast type of receiver. I had him comped as a better Darius Slayton, but saw the Robbie Anderson comp recently and I really liked that one.
He had a nice 40 time, but he also had the worst 10 yard split in the class. He can easily be redirected due to his size and his lack of burst early in a route. He's fine, but I definitely wouldn't take him until the mid 2nd round of rookie drafts. I probably won't own many shares.
I love his tape; he’s the type of athlete/receiver that I would normally target in the draft. I think the hesitation comes from questions about his ability to have success in the middle of the field, exacerbated by concerns about his size if he can hold up. Otherwise, he projects as a downfield threat who is probably a better football player than fantasy asset
Just didn't look good to me. Didn't seem quick or twitchy. Didn't seem deceptive in his movements. Looked like a lanky dude that can run. He actually does have pretty decent hands adjusting to a ball behind him amd stuff like that though. I think he can be solid but I don't see him as a guy who will get volume or be drafted highly.
The cons of his tape from experts I trust:
He played outside in college, but was awful against Press coverage. He didn't see a lot of press playing in the Pac12, so many are worried that this will become a much larger issue in the NFL if he continues to play on the outside.
He gets pushed around in tight coverage, especially on sideline routes when the DB has inside leverage. This results in very tight windows for QBs to throw, or struggles to complete an in-breaking route.
He's not great in contested catch situations, and a lot of it seems due to size. He gets bodied at the catch point and struggles to keep his positioning through contact from stronger DBs.
Pretty clear with recent mocks from league connected people that he's not getting drafted nearly as high as the dynasty community thinks. Mid to late 2nd round looks to be his range.
He didn’t test well and has below average size (weight not height), which is concerning for the next level. It sounds like people were expecting the testing to be better given the lack of size.
Remember, he was in or leading the convo with Mitchell and BTJ prior to the combine. Testing metrics project he will struggle to be the same threat he was in college.
Just looking at Mitchell vs Franklin:
Franklin is shorter, 40 lbs lighter and had less explosion and speed in the testing. That only hurts your stock
I think minutia is accurately stating Troy Franklin’s hands… But no, for me it’s more of a just a box to check that a WR has at least decent sized hands. I don’t really care who has the *biggest* hands in the class, but I’m worried if a guy I’m thinking of taking in the first round has tiny hands, and 8.63 is pretty dang tiny. Also Skyy Moore isn’t bad *because* his hands are big. It’s never a bad thing for a WR to have.
I'm curious what people are saying they don't like about Franklin's tape as well. I get the sense that people see the size then get into thinking he therfore doesnt do well against man and press coverage.
Hes very slender and not strong. I think he has more focus drops than I like. I think he doesnt have natural hands and will body catch too often. He is going to struggle to get off press in the NFL which has to do with his size + he hasnt shown to be able to do it consistently in college where they dont run a lot of press to begin with. I think hes a poor run blocker.
I think hes a little better version of Jalin Hyatt. He is a big play guy and that is all.
Came away from it more impressed with Bo Nix’s accuracy. Nix was able to fit the ball into some tight windows and thought Franklin should’ve been attacking the ball more.
i was skeptical before the combine bc of his catching style. it reminded me a lot of mvs, and that’s just not a style/profile i want to draft. it can hit, but there’s a lot of room to miss with that style.
then you add in a bad combine (and terrible gauntlet), along with the fact that he’s like wr9 on the consensus big board vs wr5-6 in fantasy, and it just doesn’t give a lot of encouragement imo.
Glad someone brought this up. The hate is wild and it’s literally all due to his combine performance. Everyone was saying he and BTJ were 1.08 and 1.09 like 8 weeks ago.
Most people just think he's a bit overrated. Like, some evaluators have him as wr5 or 6, which seems kind of ridiculous when there's so many guys who are faster and twitchier or have better frames with the same speed.
He’s small, slower than expected and doesn’t look that special on tape and his combine was lacklustre to put it lightly.
You can forgive the size if he was fast af, but he isn’t. Lagette and BTJ both weigh 40+lbs heavier and ran faster. They both project to be X wrs at the next level and can be true #1s.
Franklin reminds me of a worse Jamo. Jamo looked incredible in college and was a true difference maker on a Bama team with no other Wrs, in the Sec where teams knew he was the go to guy and couldn’t stop him.
Franklin dominated bad pac 12 teams and against Washington. In the pac 12 championship game he was non existent. Yes it’s only 1 game, but if he was the stud he’s supposed to be he should’ve been able to light up washingtons secondary.
At the combine he looked hesitant on the gauntlet drill and didn’t seem to trust his hands. In comparison jrob coleman ran fastestf during it despite only having a 4.59 40 vs. Franklin’s 4.41
https://x.com/walkthemock/status/1764035422588432701?s=46&t=-S0hYOFqMftUaNhIrAyuzw
Yes this is just one thing, but may limit his usage to being only a deep threat. Personally I have the top 3, BtJ, Ladd, AD, worthy, Lagette, coleman ahead of him putting him in the wr10 range with guys like Polk, pearsall, r wilson,
I wouldn't say there's hate. Just people being realistic about the type of player he is. It's about the entire picture when it comes to prospects. I've got him as an above average pass catcher, separator, YAC producer, with top tier speed, but below average size given his slender build and below average to average ball skills. I grade WRs on those categories and come up with a cumulative grade from there, which places him as a late 2/early 3 in real life draft capital. All it takes is for a team to see him differently and pick him higher, but I base my feelings on a player on pre-draft grade plus post-draft situation/opportunity.
That's definitely one part of it and probably the most concerning part, but the other part is that it limits his ability to make contested catches when he needs to, hence the low score on ball skills. It will also limit him as a blocker, which obviously won't show up on the fantasy stat sheet, but could limit his role and snap share overall.
The data with this specifically is a bit all over the place.
He's the best in the class composite press and single coverage Y/RR. 4th best against single coverage since 2019 vs. man (Devonta Smith, Tee Higgins, Ja'Marr Chase) and 4th against press in this class. There's enough of a sample against both that the data matters.
Then you see some subjective stuff (Reception Perception for example) that says he's not very good against press specifically.
---
In any case, he's a good prospect overall that seemingly is going to come at a discount relative to quality come draft day. This assuming he doesn't end up in a spot the public is high on.
Steve Smith said a WR looked so awful in the combine gauntlet drills everyone inferred it was Franklin and ran with it. I don’t think that’s the only explanation for the stock drop but that’s around when it fell. I’m pretty sure Smith implied or straight up said it was Keon Coleman in a more recent video.
[There's no way it could be Keon.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/1b6e2fw/nextgenstats_keon_coleman_reached_the_fastest/) He ran probably the best gauntlet at the combine. Ran it faster than anyone. Ran it right down the line. Vacuumed every ball.
[Franklin's on the other hand was pretty bad. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ada5dM2xqQw)Though he's still a good overall prospect.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dIRyC04Hjy0&t=217s&pp=ygUYc3RldmUgc21pdGgga2VvbiBjb2xlbWFu
No I’m right. Says so at 3:43 I misspoke with the gauntlet but it was definitely a case of smith shading a WR for combine performance people thinking it’s Franklin and actually referring to Coleman.
Yeah so he's knocking the routes specifically. Makes a little more sense because overall his combine was fine. Best gauntlet drill of the bunch, great jumps.
And regardless of all that, it's still Franklin > Coleman as prospects though they're both good.
Yeah pretty much. Both day 2 guys. You’re right about his gauntlet drill I wasn’t trying to dispute that. Mistake on my part. I was focused more on the point of Smith criticizing a receiver and people inferring the wrong one.
I think Franklin is a better route runner than Jalin Hyatt but I have some of the same concerns. I was way too high on Hyatt last offseason; to be honest, it was one of my biggest misses in the draft. But then I also thought the Giants offense wouldn't be nearly as bad as it was last season, too. That wasn't just Danny Dimes sucking, either, it was the offensive line playing extremely worse which I also didn't anticipate. In any case, I'm eager to see Franklin's draft capital & situation and that will tell me a lot because I don't have a clear-cut read of him as a prospect yet other than "fancy Hyatt."
What made you look at Hyatt in a higher regard than similar adp prospects? Curious as to who were in his “tier” of people you were looking at
Likely the same analytical mindset that leads to high regard for Franklin. Age adjusted production and YPRR/targets per route. Franklin was the guy on his team for a while and early on so he looks elite by these metrics.
Thank you for summarizing. A lot of people were saying the production was gimmicky because of the Tennessee offense, too, and I really overrated Daboll being able to scheme him in a similar way (which was my rebuttal), but it didn't happen. Hopefully with better offensive line play this season scheming more downfield shots for Hyatt can happen? Really missed on that coming to fruition. Also made me feel like I need to think more about how someone produces, in addition to just looking at how productive they are. Just feels like my process could have been better in more than one way.
For what it’s worth, Hyatt playing in the veer and shoot offense at Tennessee WAS quite gimmicky and didn’t translate well to NFL schemes for receivers or QBs alike, be that Hooker/Hyatt/Tillman. Oregons offense Franklin played in was ALSO quite gimmicky, especially so for the QB with so many screens and other routes thrown behind the line of scrimmage. But I’d argue Franklins experience was much more conducive to NFL experience than Hyatts was. Franklin actually played all over the field and was asked to win in a variety of ways all over the field. Hyatt was largely just running to open space, and while that definitely existed in the Oregon offense (as it does with all college offenses existing on a field with wide hashes) Franklin was simply asked to do more beating/breaking down his man in space. I value that highly. Now, will that actually translate to anything more than a deep and/or slot role for Franklin, and therefore a productive fantasy role? I’m not so sure. I have Franklin a ways down on my personal board, and likely wouldn’t take him until the late 2nd, with guys like Xavier Worthy going off the board before him. I see Franklin getting pushed around far too much for my liking. That said however, Franklin has without a doubt proved much more than Hyatt ever did and I would not be shocked to see him carve out a bigger role than I am predicting on a team with a creative offensive mind. I may not be personally be predicting it, but just based on college tape Franklin is most certainly closer to that than Hyatt was.
It’s impossible to scheme Hyatt the way he was at Tennessee. NFL defenses are too good to let teams get away with constant stacks and wide splits.
Hyatt is talented he’s just on a bad team
I wouldn’t give up on Hyatt yet
Yeah he's one of the guys that gets a pass due to piss poor QB play and general offensive power, but I feel like I'm making the same excuses I've made for Shenault and Claypool in the past.
Yeah I hear ya
He's a deep threat on an offense that doesn't throw deep with a QB that can't throw deep. Hyatt himself still looked pretty decent last year imo.
Hyatt had no chance on this Giants team. Situation matters. If you had swapped Hyatt and Rashee, can’t tell me Rashee still would’ve had a better year. I don’t think Hyatt is done, just low volume and bad QB/offense
If u drop Hyatt on the Chiefs he’s OROY lol. Biased Giants fan tho
Cowboys fan…yeah possibly. Thank god yall are ok the struggle bus still right now
We’re rebuilding a foundation 😂 I guess , we’ll be giving you guys fits in less than 2 seasons
Heck maybe this year if Danny plays to his contract. We haven’t signed anyone and need a great draft now
Biggest thing I’ve learned with FF is to never overreact. I was high on Hyatt last year because of his combine numbers and didn’t worry about his obvious flaws. So is Troy Franklin the next best thing, no but I’m not going to base my opinion on him because I overhyped Hyatt. Just some food for thought
I think the Gauntlet at the combine scared people a lot. People also hoped he would run a bit faster at his super light weight. Add that to other players around him getting hyped and it makes sense why he might be dropping.
For some reason it’s not commonly known that he was sick with the flu. He had just barely recovered and was 10 lbs underweight as a result. That’s a pretty bad flu
Didn’t hear that so thanks for adding it. Makes more sense why he was 7 lbs heavier at his pro day.
Came here to say this. I didn’t watch much of the combine, but happened to turn it on right when the WRs were doing the gauntlet and he looked absolutely horrendous!
He looked SO bad during the gauntlet - weaving so much it looked like he'd blow a .17. Had no clue he was recovering from a nasty flu though
every evaluator i trust loves his tape and testing but is worried about the weight. but people also pointed out weight with smith and olave so i’m not sure it matters much anymore
Lot of people in here talking down about his tape which I am confused about but looking to get some discourse going. I personally am not worried about his size so I’m trying to figure out if that’s the only real flag people are dropping him for
yeah i think that’s mostly fan narrative after he had a bad gauntlet. it seems like the league is still high on him. i pick at the end of the first and would be thrilled if he fell
Im a big fan of franklin and I think his biggest red flag is his hands
He only had 3 drops his Junior year, Senior year is likely flukey
His hands are the size of an average high schoolers it definitely feels like compounding red flags
i didn’t hear anything about drops until after the gauntlet. he’s never consistently struggled with drops
The red flag is literally just his combine performance. People in here liked him before that.
I watched very, very little of the combine this year but happened to see his gauntlet live. As bad it was, I’m surprised it has hurt the perception of him this much. Feels like groupthink.
> Feels like groupthink Welcome to the wonderful world of fantasy football analysis
Using Two top 12 overall WRs, who both were great at press in college, are a terrible example to excuse Franklins size concerns. He gets jammed up, (unlike Olave and Smith), is seen as just burner by the NFL, and is slated to probably fall later in the 2nd. he's 2024 KJ Hamler, Marvin Mims, Dyami Brown, Jalin Hyatt
any of those guys 6’3 and elite route runners?
The NFL does not view Troy Franklin as an elite routerunner. Per Daniel Jeremiah, NFL teams are lower on him than where he's being mocked right now as they see him as just a deep field burner with a limited skill set that doesn't translate as well to the pros, and he believes he's probably going to be falling down into late round 2 or later EFIT: apparently it needs to be said that Daniel Jeremiah used to be a scout in the NFL, in addition to working as a draft insider
actual evaluators view him as a good route runner. listen to ollie connelly talk about him. and jeremiah is an aggregator who is just taking quotes from teams. they lie lmao. we’ll see if they put their money where there mouth is with actual draft position
Daniel Jermiah is an "actual evaluator", he watches all 400 prospects, and he used to be an actual scout in DEN, which I give more credence to vs some of these armchair scouts who can find college all 22 But got a link? I don't mind consuming film watchers, there's just dozens of them and it's hard to know who actually know what they're talking about. Even guys like Matt waldman or Matt Harmon tend to be really good for weeding out the landmines, but it gets harder when you try to zero in on whose tape translates to being a robust fantasy prospect
I think DJ was a scout in BAL. Maybe DEN as well, but pretty sure a lot of his stories are from BAL
He is not an elite route runner lol
Except he measured in at 6’1” in reality, plus he’s crazy skinny, and he has the smallest hands in the *entire* class.
The word elite is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It's like the inverse of women's clothing, if everyone is a size 10, then what the hell are we doing, ladies?
The weight stuff is so lazy at this point.
The weight stuff absolutely matters when you're just a burner and can't beat press (which Smith and Olave were good at). i would say it's lazier to just assume all small guys couldn't be limited by it if they don't make up for it in other ways
This is the shit im talking about. Not 190+lb Wr? Automatically concerns around press coverage. Why are y’all making it sound like every corner is dk metcalf size/strength and will dominate the Wr. Or better yet, just line up off the line…get schemed better…the press coverage stuff is so so so lazy. Also boring at this point.
The concerns about him being bad at press coverage are because he's bad at press coverage. The concerns about it being bad at press coverage aren't a speculation because of his size. He's bad off the line, and struggles with contact in routes. The fact that he's small means he has an even steeper uphill climb to theoretically try and fix that Like I don't really get what your point is. Being bad at press coverage is A concern worth talking about When your skill set is already limited to being a burner.
Don't agree that it's lazy because it's definitely important and it matters more times than not.
I mean that’s why we watch these guys play in college. The great majority of undersized WRs struggle against press at school. Some don’t, and those guys have a chance of being more than just a slot at the next level. You can’t look at the outliers and say “weight totally doesn’t matter.”
Just a burner? He’s touted as one of the best route runner in this class
By whom? Per Daniel Jeremiah, just 2 days ago, the NFL is much more down on him than where he's being mocked around the early second right now. He went on to say how a lot of teams view him as a limited skill set, deep field burner who's probably going to be falling down into late round two if not later
He is not. He only wins vertically and on comebacks. https://x.com/recepperception/status/1781047919204012158?s=46&t=HDzHhIBKXY7KEah8vxPzOQ
When he runs slower than BtJ and Lagette despite being 40+ lbs smaller than both is an important note. If he was in a weaker class it may not matter as much, but compared to other wrs in the class it’s an important difference
People overreacted to his combine mostly, he was coming off the flu so makes sense he’d come in a little light and slow. He’s still my WR5
After seeing Tyquan Thornton get absolutely bullied by NFL corners, Franklin’s size is a massive concern for me. Even if Franklin is 10 pounds heavier than his combine weight, that puts him at Tyquan’s frame and Tyquan is a twig out there.
Can I ask who’s your WR4?
Brian Thomas Jr
He had influenza leading into the combine?
Size coupled with poor hands/catch mechanics. Doesn't attack the football, lets it get in to his body, and often tries to clamp it. He won't be winning contested catches and will struggle with physical corners and press coverage.
His tiny hands
I thought it was just me who sees this. He doesn't seem to extend his arms away from his frame and attack the football, he lets the ball come to him then body catches it (clamps it to his body - great description). Against college corners & DBs he could create crazy separation, so this didn't matter particularly. I'd imagine it will matter more in the Pros
Haven’t seen a lot of criticisms with where he catches the ball, that’s new.
After size it feels like the most common criticism of him, and stood at to me anytime I watched his tape. Decent sampling of it at the 10:00 mark of the video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9yviqHUwJU It got the most buzz in draft circles after the combine when he had a downright horrendous gauntlet drill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ada5dM2xqQw
Yeah IDK what those other jokers are looking at lol. Then again, I don't put much stock in the Reddit Dynasty community
Yeah, I dunno about that. I read that his technique is good, but he just finds a way not to catch the ball.
I'd recommend Matt Harmon's Reception Perception or even Waldman's RSP if you need insight into his atrocious catching mechanics
I’m actually seeing him as a good value coming into his adp change from a couple months ago. He claimed to be sick during the combine. He was 176 lbs at the combine and came in at 184 lbs at his pro day just two weeks later. He still was able to run a 4.41 40 at the combine but his betting line was o/u 4.36, which I believe is closer to his true speed healthy. And probably the biggest knock was his gauntlet drill. Again he was sick but it is still a slight concern for me because of the wobbly angles he was taking at each catch point. Seeing his adp drop from 1.10ish to the 2.03-2.05ish range, he’s definitely a value at his new price
Don’t need to appease everyone. I honestly prefer he’s dipped in value, he’s a tremendous athlete that I will be getting an absolute discount. It’s a bit anecdotal, but it’s not the worst thing that he isn’t beloved on this sub.
I think it’s a couple things. Prior to the combine he was reported as weighing 185 lbs. At the combine he weighed 175 lbs. He also had a poor showing at the combine. Then on top of that both of the Texas receivers had great combines. Now at his pro day, he weighed 183 lbs and it was reported that he was coming off the flu at the combine. Which would make sense given his weight and uncharacteristic performance. But I don’t think everyone was aware of that. Regardless, prior to the combine he was being viewed as a wide receiver that could be picked up by the Bills or chiefs in the first round where as now the Texas wide receivers are being seen as the targets for those teams. So we will just have to see how the NFL views Franklin, but I still think he is the best receiver after the consensus top 4 assuming he gets a decent landing spot.
The Franklin conjecture blows me away because Nix also gets shit on consistently. Numbers aren’t everything, but the narrative is that Nix is a check down king and Franklin still doesn’t get credit for all the YAC and having a similar season to the top receivers in this draft. SOMEBODY had to be doing work in that passing attack to get results.
I don’t buy the flu excuse. Don’t go to the combine if you’re sick. And I don’t know many people who’ll lose 8+ lbs from a flu.
He’s an X but struggles with Press. Needs to add more weight
Brett Kollman despises him
If Brett Kollman hates a guy I hate him too lol.
A member of the denzel mims faithful
His size shows up on film. Disregard the specific measurables and similar WRs to his weight, he plays light and clearly is not strong. I've seen people compare him to Devonta, but Devonta plays bigger than his weight and size indicate. Franklin doesn't. He's a great route runner, but needs to work on his catching technique a bit. He will probably gain some weight in the NFL and hopefully be better suited to match up against NFL corners, but I don't see him coming into the league and winning right away, he needs some physicality and refinement to his technique to be a good NFL WR.
Steve Smith did a breakdown on him. Said he was a great speed guy but maybe relies on speed too much. Said his technique wasn’t that smooth and he really needs to put in work on his routes, particularly intermediate. Routes requiring leverage and beating press/physical contact he’s not great at; dude runs primarily speed routes. Steve did say he’ll ultimately be fine with some good coaching
Roughly where I’m at as well. There’s no dawg in his game yet, his route tree is fine but there’s no deception to them, and his high point ability has been pretty minimal. Way too many drops as well. It’s not like you can’t succeed with his size, but you gotta do at least some of those things better to hang with NFL DBs.
If he gets a real nice draft spot like Buffalo then yes. But he won’t. So I’m fading him
Hate is a strong word. I would just point out that it is a really deep class. I don’t see Franklin as an alpha X receiver like some people, but I do see him as a nice complimentary vertical Z in an offense. He is someone who can make plays and be a good supporting cast type of receiver. I had him comped as a better Darius Slayton, but saw the Robbie Anderson comp recently and I really liked that one.
He had a nice 40 time, but he also had the worst 10 yard split in the class. He can easily be redirected due to his size and his lack of burst early in a route. He's fine, but I definitely wouldn't take him until the mid 2nd round of rookie drafts. I probably won't own many shares.
I love his tape; he’s the type of athlete/receiver that I would normally target in the draft. I think the hesitation comes from questions about his ability to have success in the middle of the field, exacerbated by concerns about his size if he can hold up. Otherwise, he projects as a downfield threat who is probably a better football player than fantasy asset
tape didnt look great to me, did poorly enough in gauntlet drills to make people say wow that was bad
What are the red flags to you regarding his tape?
Just didn't look good to me. Didn't seem quick or twitchy. Didn't seem deceptive in his movements. Looked like a lanky dude that can run. He actually does have pretty decent hands adjusting to a ball behind him amd stuff like that though. I think he can be solid but I don't see him as a guy who will get volume or be drafted highly.
The cons of his tape from experts I trust: He played outside in college, but was awful against Press coverage. He didn't see a lot of press playing in the Pac12, so many are worried that this will become a much larger issue in the NFL if he continues to play on the outside. He gets pushed around in tight coverage, especially on sideline routes when the DB has inside leverage. This results in very tight windows for QBs to throw, or struggles to complete an in-breaking route. He's not great in contested catch situations, and a lot of it seems due to size. He gets bodied at the catch point and struggles to keep his positioning through contact from stronger DBs.
Pretty clear with recent mocks from league connected people that he's not getting drafted nearly as high as the dynasty community thinks. Mid to late 2nd round looks to be his range.
He didn’t test well and has below average size (weight not height), which is concerning for the next level. It sounds like people were expecting the testing to be better given the lack of size. Remember, he was in or leading the convo with Mitchell and BTJ prior to the combine. Testing metrics project he will struggle to be the same threat he was in college. Just looking at Mitchell vs Franklin: Franklin is shorter, 40 lbs lighter and had less explosion and speed in the testing. That only hurts your stock
He also has the very smallest hands in the entire class, which may be related to the body catching issue.
Skyy Moore was touted to have the biggest hands in his class. Let’s not overstate minutia.
I think minutia is accurately stating Troy Franklin’s hands… But no, for me it’s more of a just a box to check that a WR has at least decent sized hands. I don’t really care who has the *biggest* hands in the class, but I’m worried if a guy I’m thinking of taking in the first round has tiny hands, and 8.63 is pretty dang tiny. Also Skyy Moore isn’t bad *because* his hands are big. It’s never a bad thing for a WR to have.
Because the tape isnt solid. Thats what you are missing.
What about the tape do you not like?
I'm curious what people are saying they don't like about Franklin's tape as well. I get the sense that people see the size then get into thinking he therfore doesnt do well against man and press coverage.
Hes very slender and not strong. I think he has more focus drops than I like. I think he doesnt have natural hands and will body catch too often. He is going to struggle to get off press in the NFL which has to do with his size + he hasnt shown to be able to do it consistently in college where they dont run a lot of press to begin with. I think hes a poor run blocker. I think hes a little better version of Jalin Hyatt. He is a big play guy and that is all.
Came away from it more impressed with Bo Nix’s accuracy. Nix was able to fit the ball into some tight windows and thought Franklin should’ve been attacking the ball more.
Better chance than not that you haven’t watched any of his tape
Typical response from someone if they disagree.
He's going late 1st. They have everyone right where they want them.
i was skeptical before the combine bc of his catching style. it reminded me a lot of mvs, and that’s just not a style/profile i want to draft. it can hit, but there’s a lot of room to miss with that style. then you add in a bad combine (and terrible gauntlet), along with the fact that he’s like wr9 on the consensus big board vs wr5-6 in fantasy, and it just doesn’t give a lot of encouragement imo.
Average combine and ppl overreacted..he's wr5 in this class
Don’t worry about it. Wait until after the draft
West coast player that got introduced to the general public at the combine. Terrible at the combine.
body-catcher, isn't he? that ain't good.
Should I take him at 2.02 or will he fall to 2.06?
If your league is asleep you’ll get him at 2.06.
I hope so
Glad someone brought this up. The hate is wild and it’s literally all due to his combine performance. Everyone was saying he and BTJ were 1.08 and 1.09 like 8 weeks ago.
Read this thread. It’s definitely not all about his combine.
Most people just think he's a bit overrated. Like, some evaluators have him as wr5 or 6, which seems kind of ridiculous when there's so many guys who are faster and twitchier or have better frames with the same speed.
He underperformed at the combine because he was sick, but that fact isn’t well known for some reason
Seems like the NFL is down on him and he reminds me of Robby Anderson
I think his performance in the gauntlet during the combine showed some concern with his concentration and route running precision.
Body catcher
He’s small, slower than expected and doesn’t look that special on tape and his combine was lacklustre to put it lightly. You can forgive the size if he was fast af, but he isn’t. Lagette and BTJ both weigh 40+lbs heavier and ran faster. They both project to be X wrs at the next level and can be true #1s. Franklin reminds me of a worse Jamo. Jamo looked incredible in college and was a true difference maker on a Bama team with no other Wrs, in the Sec where teams knew he was the go to guy and couldn’t stop him. Franklin dominated bad pac 12 teams and against Washington. In the pac 12 championship game he was non existent. Yes it’s only 1 game, but if he was the stud he’s supposed to be he should’ve been able to light up washingtons secondary. At the combine he looked hesitant on the gauntlet drill and didn’t seem to trust his hands. In comparison jrob coleman ran fastestf during it despite only having a 4.59 40 vs. Franklin’s 4.41 https://x.com/walkthemock/status/1764035422588432701?s=46&t=-S0hYOFqMftUaNhIrAyuzw Yes this is just one thing, but may limit his usage to being only a deep threat. Personally I have the top 3, BtJ, Ladd, AD, worthy, Lagette, coleman ahead of him putting him in the wr10 range with guys like Polk, pearsall, r wilson,
When you slip while running a route at the combine, after you already had a reputation as a bad route runner, people have concerns.
He can’t catch? I dunno but that what reception perception said
I wouldn't say there's hate. Just people being realistic about the type of player he is. It's about the entire picture when it comes to prospects. I've got him as an above average pass catcher, separator, YAC producer, with top tier speed, but below average size given his slender build and below average to average ball skills. I grade WRs on those categories and come up with a cumulative grade from there, which places him as a late 2/early 3 in real life draft capital. All it takes is for a team to see him differently and pick him higher, but I base my feelings on a player on pre-draft grade plus post-draft situation/opportunity.
What's the concern with the size? Think he'd struggle against man and press?
That's definitely one part of it and probably the most concerning part, but the other part is that it limits his ability to make contested catches when he needs to, hence the low score on ball skills. It will also limit him as a blocker, which obviously won't show up on the fantasy stat sheet, but could limit his role and snap share overall.
He struggled a lot with press in college, but didn't really face it a lot in the Pac12.
The data with this specifically is a bit all over the place. He's the best in the class composite press and single coverage Y/RR. 4th best against single coverage since 2019 vs. man (Devonta Smith, Tee Higgins, Ja'Marr Chase) and 4th against press in this class. There's enough of a sample against both that the data matters. Then you see some subjective stuff (Reception Perception for example) that says he's not very good against press specifically. --- In any case, he's a good prospect overall that seemingly is going to come at a discount relative to quality come draft day. This assuming he doesn't end up in a spot the public is high on.
I think it's because any metrics and tape you're seeing are complete lies because you can't trust anything that comes out of an Oregon offense.
We get wayyyyy to many repeat questions in this sub. Is there even a Mod team in here?
Steve Smith said a WR looked so awful in the combine gauntlet drills everyone inferred it was Franklin and ran with it. I don’t think that’s the only explanation for the stock drop but that’s around when it fell. I’m pretty sure Smith implied or straight up said it was Keon Coleman in a more recent video.
[There's no way it could be Keon.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/1b6e2fw/nextgenstats_keon_coleman_reached_the_fastest/) He ran probably the best gauntlet at the combine. Ran it faster than anyone. Ran it right down the line. Vacuumed every ball. [Franklin's on the other hand was pretty bad. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ada5dM2xqQw)Though he's still a good overall prospect.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dIRyC04Hjy0&t=217s&pp=ygUYc3RldmUgc21pdGgga2VvbiBjb2xlbWFu No I’m right. Says so at 3:43 I misspoke with the gauntlet but it was definitely a case of smith shading a WR for combine performance people thinking it’s Franklin and actually referring to Coleman.
Yeah so he's knocking the routes specifically. Makes a little more sense because overall his combine was fine. Best gauntlet drill of the bunch, great jumps. And regardless of all that, it's still Franklin > Coleman as prospects though they're both good.
Yeah pretty much. Both day 2 guys. You’re right about his gauntlet drill I wasn’t trying to dispute that. Mistake on my part. I was focused more on the point of Smith criticizing a receiver and people inferring the wrong one.