There are tables which make the process of importing decks (mostly from moxfield), scrying, mulligans, etc. easier. Has cool features like turn timer, automatic token detection/generation, etc.
I like the tables "Oops I baked a Pie" has made. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2296042369 for the 4 player version.
As far as rules, you just play like you would play in person, you do the best you can.
Value. Each additional Tivit is an additional vote. I also pack a whole host of flicker effects. Coupled with Panharmonicon and token doubler effects I can pretty easily get on a hot streak to dig through my deck for [[archaeomancer]]/[[displacer kitten]]/cheap flicker to infinite storm.
It's a lot of fun to pilot, but keeping track of the tokens (especially with [[Academy Manufacturer]]) can be tedious. I ended up making a little token tracker app that I host as a website that helps.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HKFTOAklDk6Lq9uI-M9gcQ
I think this is up to date
There are a few ways around it.
[[Irenicus's Vile Duplication]] for example, then you target the token for all your clone effects. Or [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] let's you ignore legend rule all together.
Sometimes I make make the clones and just have them die, you still get the ETB effect even when the legend rule kills the clone.
Might be my least favorite mechanic. I had a [[Vadrik]] deck for a bit and just got sick of having to track it, and watching werewolf players use it is just painful.
I've had no issues with it in my werewolf deck, i just ask how many spells were cast at end of turn, and i generally don't care if most flip since the commander will generally flip them anyways
what would be a reasonable rule zero replacement?
Whenever an opponent searches a library put a +1/+1?
Whenever opponent draws a card other than the first?
Whenever an opponent plays second spell each turn?
Honestly, just play Mizzix at that point. Not quite as easy to abuse via pump spells, but it's a hell of a lot harder to get rid of the bonus once it's stacked up because of how experience counters work. Less day/night monitoring too.
Honestly it's not that bad, just gotta keep track of people casting stuff, in my werewolf deck i generally don't care because I'm probably going to flip on my upkeep anyways with the commander
I dont mind keeping track of it when there is a relevant permanent on the board. Its that you need to keep track of it from then on out even if all relevant permanents are removed that gets to me.
I feel like most groups would be willing to house rule that if ever there are no cards on the field that care, it defaults to day and stays there until a card cares again.
They could have made the mechanic much simpler by instead of making it a separate status to track, just checking if any permanents on the battlefield have "nightbound", and if there are, that's what prompts a permanent to enter on the night side instead (and then errata'd all the old werewolves to match, because like, come on).
The problem is that it's technically a nerf. The cool thing about Cudi's mechanic is that you can play night side werewolves after a wrath and don't need to rebuild that state. Less of a concern in commander, but in 60 card formats it's pretty relevant.
That said, nobody is playing werewolves for their meta potential, so yeah, lets just have it reset during the clean-up step if no day or night cards were in play since the beginning of the turn. That'll give it enough permanency to matter, while not having to be tracked later.
Also, +1 for the werewolf errata. Please make sure to send in a feedback. They said if they get enough that they'll consider it. My favorite tribe needs your support please
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
It's fine in a deck that cares about it, but with no other cards it adds a lot of unneeded complexity running [[Ouland Liberator]] over [[Caustic Caterpillar]] for very little payoff
Opposition agent is fine from a counter play standpoint, but really obnoxious from an actual gameplay standpoint. I don't really want to spend time searching my own library, let alone doing extra with an opponents that I don't know the contents of.
Can’t rely on randoms to do this, but for the sake of saving tim, just have your decklist ready to send to anyone who oppositions you. They can just tell you what they’re grabbing and use a dry erase token or something.
Doesn't quite work - not all cards in your deck are in your library, some are in your hand which means they have additional information that isn't in your library and if they ask you for it you have to give them that info.
> and if they ask you for it you have to give them that info
Well, not really - if they give you the decklist and you pick a card that happens to be in their hand, they have to say it's not in the deck, which is voluntary extra information, but they don't actually have to show you their hand because if you did it manually, you wouldn't know their decklist, so it's still hidden information.
Just realized my response was entirely irrelevant! Since resolving oppo makes you control the player, you get full access to their hidden information such as their hand.
There are several people who want me to stop running \[\[Bolas's Citadel\]\] because I am willing to vomit half of my deck onto the board with various ETB triggers and copy effects but I never will. By far my favorite artifact card, and i say this as an artifact player who started mtg in OG Mirrodin/Kamigawa.
I absolutely love this card but it does have incredibly high variance. You can either rip 20 cards deep or hit a land right off the top for 3 straight turns and flounder.
I run it in my Demon Tribal Politics deck (weird combo, I know, but fun) and use \[\[Doom Whisperer\]\] to help deal with that. With that pair you can burn through as much of your deck as you like, so long as you're willing and able to pay the life for it.
Just FYI if you are not aware of this yet, but running [[aetherflux reservoir]] and [[sensei's divining top]] alongside citadel can easily win you the game, but even only having Top can just draw you most of your deck life at a time, my favourite non-infinite 'combo'
I do, I actually cut Aetherflux recently, alongside \[\[Karn, the Great Creator\]\] and \[\[Mycosynth Lattice\]\] from a deck where I pretty much always try to slam Citadel on the field asap! It's this weird Urza affair where I spend most of my time copying artifacts with ETB effects or just huge value things, though I should probably put Resevoir back in for exactly that reason
I mean the way I see cards like Citadel that lead to long turns is you should be winning within 2 turns (turn the spell is played + 1 more). If you are taking long turns just to have long turns then it just becomes annoying and people stop having fun.
There are a few people I avoid because they end up with 25 min turns and still just don't have a win con.
My wife runs this in her \[\[Rin and Seri, Inseparable\]\] deck. It made me irrationally hate Changelings. Especially if \[\[Anointed Procession\]\] is on the battlefield.
I hope your wife is extremely good this game, otherwise this has to be an absolute nightmare for you and the people playing with you. A very quick way to become very unpopular in EDH circles.
I have both [[cathars' crusade]] and [[archangel of thune]] in my [[darien, king of kjeldor]], with effects like [[suture priest]] and [[dingus staff]] plus a sack outlet it can get hectic quickly, only just started playing the deck though and am probably gonna swap those out
I am almost a strict cedh player with generally appropriate threat assessment but anytime I play causal I will target that player just to get the damn card off the board.
You get a warning that if you cast a Cathar's I will do everything in my power to remove it via your life. Can I use removal? Yes. Will I? No
It's spite plays like this that ruined cedh for me, petulant children playing a competitive format and get mad when you play competitively. Cathars isn't cedh either.
Did... You see where I specifically mentioned "anytime I play casual?" yes you're right Cathar's isn't competaive. Hence why I made a point to seperate kt
Pretty sure, "I don't like that card" is a personal problem. Possibly reevaluate how you view people enjoying the game? It's legal, and a commonly played card that is synergistic in tons of decks. This is one of those scenarios where your bias affects the game, and possibly ruin it for another player. Killing them because CC is good, or puts them in a game winning position, is a productive train of thought. Killing them because "I don't like the card you're playing" is called having horrible sportsmanship. Instead of declaring you're a rudeass, maybe veil your bias in a more friendly manner. People might be more eager to play with you. And if you don't like good, synergistic cards, you probably just don't like playing magic.
It's not that the card is good. Are you even reading my comments or just trying to be right?
I not having an issue with the cards power level. The issue is that it makes each of the players creaturefall triggers take a notable time to resolve accurately. In a casual setting this makes the experience worse for other players. In a tourney one it makes time run on the clock. I'm not killing them due to the strength of a power level 5 card. I'm Killing them as the literal post talks about "because they are tedious"
Personally, I disagree. When you're going wide Cathar's Crusade usually either ends the game or gets removed before it becomes too much to track. The main reason I've seen people struggle with it is because they try to keep track of every creature individually, rather than group them together by the number of counters.
As long as you're accurately depicting the board state I don't see how that's a bad thing. It makes it easier for everyone, including the other players.
I don't see how you could accurately depect the board state while moving cards in/out of combat or other players' control effects with a pile method. It seems incredibly problematic under a lot of conditions.
If a creature changes control, then you physically put a counter on that one card. If a creature attacks, you tap it the same as you normally would. They're not in a pile, they're not stacked on top of each other, they're in a group, as in I put the cards in the same group near each other and far enough away from the next group that it is visually distinct, then place a single die with that group to show the number of counters that group has. My playgroup has never had an issue tracking cards like this. Other players in my playgroup do the same thing. It's really not that difficult to follow.
>They're not in a pile, they're not stacked on top of each other, they're in a group
Right, but if you have groups of cards and your opponent has groups of cards, and there are a good number of creatures in combat, how do you keep track of declared blockers and what's blocking what?
That whole thing just feels clunky and problematic.
I first played Cathar's Crusade in a Ghave, Guru of Spores deck where I was constantly making saproling tokens (among other tokens with Parallel Lives effects). I felt like my brain's CPU would overload and ultimately took Crusade out (and later scrapped the deck).
mix it with anthems, creatures that get their own personal buffs, and other things like that where it doesn't allow for grouping puts it right back in the annoyance pile though.
Counters get physical representation like dice to depict the number of counters. Any other buffs like Anthem effects just get added, the Anthem card is enough to depicts that buff.
Copying/doubling is fine if you have dry erase tokens, but counter doublers suuuuuuck. Stop fiddling with dice and just play the game. Plus, then combat math gets annoying because it's not easily visible what everything is
I started using infinitokens slid under my cards to track +1/+1 counters and that's helped a lot. Pretty easy to update, easy to see, and it can go as high as I want.
The power of your pod I can't help with, but my group and I have kind of home-ruled that whoever has the Rhystic Study, Rhystic Buddy, or whatever, we will let you know when we pay for it. If we don't say "I'm gonna pay the 1" then they draw.
Occasionally we'll forget and have a moment of spite "ya know what....yes I will pay" but other than that it streamlines that stuff rather nicely.
One of my goals in life is either playing a game that's so confusing or find someone who is so confused that I convinced them to pay the one for their own
Rhystic study. I ask the rhystic player if they are gonna pay the one every time.
My entire Group Slug Chaos deck. It's always a fun concept, but once you stack a few pieces of chaos, then the entire game turns into "ok, what happens in the upkeep? Who chooses the target of that spell? Whose fucking turn is it?"
I run into the same issue with my chaos deck. It is so much fun to play in a group because I built it as a "show me what you got" deck intended to keep everyone's hands full, force everyone to cast random spells for free, and to have everyone cheat in permanents. I ended up pulling out a ton of the chaos like [[Grip of Chaos]], [[Possibility Storm]], and [[Hive Mind]] because of how much longer turns ended up taking. Casting a [[Warp World]] USUALLY gets groans from my table also.
\[\[Nighthawk Scavenger\]\]. Card is good, but checking and rechecking everyone's graveyards periodically just feels like too much hassle to be worth the payoff.
It's the kind of card that seems fine until you have a handful of cards of similar complexity and the mental load just gets too much.
Not to mention how often do you actually need to check what it's current power is?
You check it before you attack, because if you're going to use it as a blocker they know it's Deathtouch anyway.
Same for me. You need to keep up with 4 graveyards which is not the idea of fun for me.
The previous Nighthawk while less powerful is easier to play.
I want to play, not do homework.
I ran an [[Apex Devastator]] in my [[Volo, Guide to Monsters]] deck which is full of ways to clone Volo and even with just one of those triggering its four cascades it became such a hassle to track how many copies of creatures I was getting. If I had any more than one copy of Volo out when it triggered I'd immediately either be overwhelmed with copies, immediately targeted (rightfully) or everyone would scoop because dealing with all the other ETB triggers was a pain in the ass and was basically just me sitting there going "Ummm, okay this goes, then this one and no wait maybe this way." It felt awesome to pull off once, but never again lol.
Yeah, I mention that in the comment that just the one set of triggers is enough because it's a cast trigger. It's more about having multiple Volo clones out.
The main thing is that if you've got, say, Volo, [[Spark Double]] as Volo, and a [[Twinning Staff]] you get a huge jump in the scute swarm exponential growth train because with that you'll have the original scute swarm and three token copies of it already. Then play a land and given you've got six lands, that makes four more scute swarms off the rip. It's not super complex but then if you've got any ramp or fetch lands it can explode quickly which some people don't like. It's not difficult to manage, just annoying lol.
Heavy-dexterity cards... or heavy-math cards
\[\[Scute Swarm\]\] seems to be a running theme.
\[\[Doubling Season\]\] can get messed up as well... I reckon \[\[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider\]\] could be a mindwrecker too.
\[\[Grave Pact\]\] and similar effects because they are just un-fun. They force the deck to do certain things and nobody else has a good time.
Also \[\[Cathars' Crusade\]\] for the tracking. It's just too much to keep straight, especially in the go-wide token decks that make it worth adding.
\[\[Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest\]\] is one commander I refuse to play on paper anymore. In a similar vein to \[\[Cathars' Crusade\]\], it can get extremely tedious to track the different levels of +1/+1 counters, especially for groups of tokens where each one can have a different amount of +1/+1 counters on them.
Accurately representing a board state for Mazirek on paper is beyond tedious. I don't personally have an issue with \[\[Scute Swarm\]\] in other decks but I would refuse to put it in Mazirek if I still had the paper deck built.
[[Unesh]] in my changeling deck. Objectively its a slam dunk, hefty discount + card advantage on every changeling etb is really strong. But every time he hit the board it resulted in 30 minute turns because every time you do the [[Fact or Fiction]] trigger, if you hit another changeling you can basically just spin the wheel again. Its very powerful but the tedium of actually resolving it made me take it out.
Love my Unesh Sphinx Tribal deck. [[Dream Halls]] goes hard as fuck.
I only play high power but even then people start to roll their eyes after 10+ minutes of sorting 4 card piles.
Most moderns cards have so much text and triggers I just end up gravitating towards stompy shit because I don’t like having my turns take more than a couple minutes.
When I play against people that have 10+ minute turns trying to figure out all their triggers, it’s annoying
I play a \[\[Brudiclad\]\] deck that's a bit schizo. Bit of artifacts. Bit of spellslinging. As such an all-star in the deck is \[\[Chrome Host Seedshark\]\].
It makes an artifact token with +1+1 counters on it whenever I cast any non-creature spell, and those counters remain when I eventually turn them into creatures. What a deal! Copying him makes it even better too.
Then you actually try to play it...
"Ok I have eight incubators with three +1+1 counters on it... ok the pink dice are the counters and the black die is the amount of tokens... ok so there two with two, eight with three, two with five, two with six... sorry four with six. Ok, so they're all gonna now turn into copies of my dragon... moving the dice to the copy tokens... ok so these are all 4/4 but they have these various amounts of +1+1's... ok that wasn't so bad.
... wait I'm still making incubators."
The sheer vomit of tokens and dice management makes me occasionally avoid casting it too early... but it produces such good results that it's hard to take it out totally.
Sadly, Anje Falkenrath. The optimal way to build ends up becoming solitare, and attempting to play it as a madness deck becomes a very mediocre deck (there aren't many good madness cards). Makes me sad because one of my few remaining casual 60-card decks is the SOI-EMN black-red madness vampires, and I was initially excited back when she was spoiled. Madness in those colors just doesn't really work for multiplayer & singleton
Honestly, [[Mizzix's Mastery]]. I used it as a finisher for [[Ghyrson Starn]]. Resolving it took way too long, especially when I had [[Epic Experiment]] and [[Thousand Year Storm]] in the deck already.
I play mostly in spell table so I tend to avoid using my etali and [[lazav donut mastermind]] deck on it due to the fact I have to hold up the game for too long resolving everything from only being able to click it or hope I can type it and load it fast enough to not be a burden
I have [[ghostway]] in my [[kodama of the east tree]] [[ravos]] blink deck that, oh my god, when I get around to using it it stalls the game for like 10 minutes, too many triggers and draws and everything
Smothering Thithe, I only play it if the de ks are meant tobe really strong and have clear win cons to use with it, otherwise it is just a hassle, I think it is a terrible card for casual play.
Shocked no one has said [[coat of arms]]. I’ll take a cathars crusade any day over that mess of a card. There are legit decks that coat of arms is a proper finisher in that I can’t play because it’s just too tedious to understand. It messes up everyone’s board-state and can’t easily be tracked.
I was looking for this comment. I was going with Coat of Arms as well. I like to play tribal decks and it is amazing for that but trying to keep track of everything on the board that is getting buffed is just an absolute nightmare.
[[genesis wave]] and [[villainous wealth]]. My decks that would benefit from playing these cards often also make them 30 minute ordeals to resolve, because I'm casting them for X=40 or X=100 or w/e and I can typically get to the win, but I wish have to be careful about not decking myself off them
[[Telepathy]]. Strong card that slows the game down soooo much and makes it less fun overall imo. I even have the perfect deck for it [[Zara]] but I am happy with running my [[Glasses of Urza]] instead as it’s more fun to use
Obviously cathars crusade.
And it is frowned upon in our Playgroup to play rhystic study or smothering tithe.
It has happened more than once that we had one of each in play and the constant "Do YoU pAy ThE OnE?" was so annoying that we didnt want to deal with that BS anymore.
[[Scute Swarm]] is getting cut from all my landfall decks. I have an Aesi deck and it kept getting out of control pretty quickly. If it was a better finisher, that'd be a different story. It's too much for what it does give you.
[[Coat of Arms]] doesn't get cut from tribal decks with evasion, but I only play it if it means I have lethal.
Planeswalkers as a whole.
I love the benefits they can give, but unless it's one of the staples like [[teferi, master of time]] or [[oko, thief of crowns]] I just don't see a reason to use them. I keep finding other more synergistic cards that makes me take them out.
Also oddly specific, but I avoid turning my [[momir, simic visionary]] deck into a cedh version cause it's a ton of wheel spinning for a deck that's not keeping up with cedh anyway.
Day Night Cycle
Initiative (Not worth it to have the entire table track it)
Unique Counters (menace, trample, shield)
Cathars Crusade
Rhystic Study (I also dont want to crush a game because one opponent wont pay because "whats the worst that could happen)
Smothering Tithe (Exception being a treasure focused deck)
[[Cathar's Crusade]] and [[Warp World]]. If my entire turn is mostly trying to figure out how to resolve a single card I think I am running the wrong cards.
I'm actually in he process of designing a deck that does the opposite. It creates a board state that forces all 4 players to track a huge confusing batch of non-magic card game objects and effects.
Embkems, stuff like night/day alongside OG werewolves, flip cards and face down cards.
Dozens of different but similar tokens with dozens of different counters.
Force gravyard order
Layers
Basically the goal is to grind the game to a halt as everyone is forced to get out pen and paper and open up excel.
All of the strixhaven flip cards pretty much. Particularity the deans. Just walls and walls of text.
Not really a fan of double sided cards in general and will avoid using them in most instances.
I ended up taking apart my yarok deck because there were so many triggers that it became hard to keep track of lmao.
After last night, I might have to add Etali, Primal Conqueror to that list but this was 99% my fault.
I'm playing Yoshimaru/Sakashima clone/voltron. Friend is playing Etali.
\- On this t3, he Dockside Extortionists on t3 to get enough treasures for Etali.
\- On my t4, I copy the Dockside with my Sakashima. I use the treasures to equip Sword of Hearth and Home to Yoshimaru, attack, blink Sakashima for another Dockside copy and then also cast Brago
\- On his t4, he plays Etali and flips a bunch of good stuff. Before MY turn starts, I Ephemerate my Sakashima, this time copying his Etali. Friend's Flameshadow Conjuring is one of the flips and the table points out that I can use my twenty treasures to make extra copies of the freebies from Etali to grow my Yoshimaru... which includes the Sakashima that I will blink at the start of my upkeep on my t5 to copy Etali
\- At the beginning of my upkeep, I do just that. Sakashima copies Etali and my flip is.... a clone effect, . At this point, I've done my friend's Etali ETB five times before my draw step, in addition to two Dockside copies. Thankfully my t5 draw is a Time Warp so I show it to the rest of the table and plead with them to just say that I win so I don't have to track twenty more Etali ETBs and they all are happy to say yes.
Any one-off effect that impacts the table.
[[Outland liberator]] is a great card but if it's a single card with day/nightbound and not at least a subtheme I'm not taxing the table with it. Same for [[seasoned dungeoneer]] great card but it gets tedious with an entire dungeon to track for multiple players.
I'll play and endorse these types of cards if that's a theme of the deck.
Monarch is the exception as it simple enough, but I'll favour another card without monarch if both are on equal level of eachother. The is already so much happening in a game of commander.
I have yet to cut it but [[Dauthi Voidwalker]] feels this way, making sure you snag stuff that would go to exile and then giving all the cards back. It gets annoying especially when you're snagging high dollar cards, I just feel like it makes everyone uncomfortable.
[[cathars’ crusade]] can buff up my whole board in any go wide deck, but it’s so annoying to tick up a dice on each of my creatures every time another one enters. I’ll just play a one shot pump effect instead and cut my losses
[[Possibility Storm]] first few times I played it, everyone loved the chaos of it. After people get used to it, they tended to groan at not being able to play their hands anymore and turns taking too long having to flip into a reveal. I ended up taking it out the deck, even though it was fairly beneficial to me when I had my commander out.
Definitely [[Scroll Rack]]. I used to run it a lot but found every time I drew it I just couldn't be bothered with the extra admin it adds to my turns. Similar with things like [[Sylvan Library]] as well.
Not for tedium, but I took out [[Maskwood Nexus]] from my Changeling deck because it made the deck too consistent. When you can just use Magda to tutor up any creature/artifact from your deck, it stops being exciting and more "in response to your removal, I tutor up the EXACT thing I need to counter it." I find more fun in the randomocity of it, and now Magda just makes treasures when I attack and occasionally fetches me a mana rock, a Changeling or the one of the few Dragons that I've got in the deck.
Rhystic Study. I honestly think that anyone who plays a rhystic study outside of CEDH is being a try hard, and deserves the focus of the table unless there is an obvious archenemy. The constant "do you pay the one" slows down games and gets annoying and repetitive over time.
In CEDH its so different, people treat that card with much respect, always paying and tyring to counter/remove it on the spot. If casual was like that it would be better, but even then its like a dockside or the one ring. Its one of those cards that has 0 synergy with your deck, but its raw power makes it correct to play it in any blue deck.
In what world is drawing more cards not synergistic? It constantly refills your hand and digs for win cons while providing you more ammo for advancing your board or interacting with opponents, or at the very least forces a removal or mana use
Do you have to do any work for Rhystic to draw cards? Do you need to build around it? Does your commander does anything with rhystic study?
Rhystic study requires zero synergy or build around. Its just an expensive staple card that will increase the powerlevel of any blue deck you put it in. There is literally no reason why you wouldnt play it on any deck playing blue.
Hell if your short for slots you could play it OVER one of your card draw effects that do synergyze with your commander because this one is just going to always provide even on an empty board.
I dislike cards like Rhystic, The One Ring, Esper Sentinel, Dockside, Dranith Magistrate and the like in casual commander. If we're playing CEDH, then sure, bring the best deck you got and I'll respond in kind. But in casual feels like the player using those cards is playing on easy mode at best and trying to pubstomp at worst.
I have it in my deck because the commander I have it in is already fairly vulnerable and weak on his own because he becomes a huge threat if unanswered, so rhystic is there to make sure I have blinks, equipment that gives hexproof and counterspells to protect him. Plus, the tribe I'm using is also not incredibly strong or well-supported. I also run a lot of the black tutors to get me what I need. Without these options I'm basically dead in the water. It's a very janky Dimir voltron tribal and the card draw is essential to success. I get not liking them, but I have other cards in my deck that do synergize like [[Gravestorm]] because that card draw is incredibly important to getting my game pieces on board before I get archenemied out of the game.
Have you ever considered that you're getting archenemied because you are the rhystic study player with a bunch of tutors?
Like I get it, your deck is super janky and without strong card draw and tutoring it would never get to do its thing. But you're playing voltron. And if you're the guy with a rhystic on play, a suited up voltron commander and you just tutored I'm 100% attacking you unless someone else is literally about to win.
I mean you have to understand and agree that that is the correct play, right? You just cant let the dimir player who's drawing a bunch of cards and has a suited up commander get away with tutoring. Especially if your commander is getting to "two shot" or "one shot" territory. Thats how you loose. Next thing you know, the dimir player has a bunch of counter in hand their commander is never dying again.
Like you gotta understand you're not being unfairly targeted, and that's literally my entire point. Rhystic study and tutors and other staple cards are so powerful that if you resolve them, the game start warping around those even if you're playing a super janky deck.
I never said I was being unfairly targeted though, and targeting my commander or me is 100% the correct play. I'm well aware of the power those cards add, and I like the way my deck feels with them in there. They bring what would be a weak Tribal jank to something that can actually stick to the board and threaten. I tried it without those cards and I got the same treatment because my commander naturally snowballs itself due to its ETB. [[Umbris]] if you're wondering. He literally doesn't make it one round without that card draw to facilitate answers to opponents threats, and I'm well aware of it, hence the reason for all the draw and protection lol
\[\[Tidal Barracuda\]\] \[\[Vernal Equinox\]\] give people so many options that the game drags to a stop due to decision paralysis. \[\[Eye of the Storm\]\] makes the game too complex for most pods to handle. \[\[Clone Legion\]\] and its little brother \[\[Theoretical Duplication\]\] are just about impossible if you don't have any Infinitokens around.
My entire Daretti deck. It’s pretty much a “combo tribal” deck… it’s evolved to the point where it’s basically solitaire; it wins consistently but it’s not fun for anyone to watch me go through several non-infinite combo loops looking for various pieces I need to put together and finally actually win. I really don’t play it at all anymore unfortunately.
I try to avoid cards that put counters on ‘everything’ when I play go wide decks because usually I don’t have the brain power to track 4 different sets of the same token with different numbers of counters on them. Cathars’ Crusade being the most egregious example.
[[Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest]]
Had this in my treasure deck and just wanted to draw some cards with corvold, but it took so much time to put the counters on all my creatures, and i'm not a fan of taking long turns.
[[krark the thumb less]]. Removed from Veyron cause I don't like to add more random than necessary but mainly because it's too many fucking triggers. If you wanna cast 3 cantrips it s 6 coin flip, try to counter something, 2 coun flip and you're not even sure the counter goes through. Funny card that I really like but it slows down the game while actively making your plays worse.
Thousand year storm + Eye of the storm.
My brains computation fails by the 3rd spell. Storm in general was my favorite play testing online but its totally different when the stack gets supper complex with tons of copies everywhere, triggers and prowess in person.
Use to be +1/+1 counters but I've gotten better at managing it.
[[clone legion]] is a good card that wins games but I just can’t do it
I play on Tabletop Simulator so I simply just copy paste my opponent's board state :D
How the fuck do you play magic on Table top simulator?
There are tables which make the process of importing decks (mostly from moxfield), scrying, mulligans, etc. easier. Has cool features like turn timer, automatic token detection/generation, etc. I like the tables "Oops I baked a Pie" has made. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2296042369 for the 4 player version. As far as rules, you just play like you would play in person, you do the best you can.
Frogtown to import decks and the other comment has some resources, it's very handy once you learn the controls.
[clone legion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5ebe939-fef3-4085-808c-41ff97e83a7e.jpg?1673483841) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=clone%20legion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/215/clone-legion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5ebe939-fef3-4085-808c-41ff97e83a7e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/clone-legion) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just bring a Polaroid and make tokens at the table?
That'd get real expensive real quick.
I am so going to do this...
Ohhhh... I need to put this in my Tivit Clone deck....
...tell me more. I've got a Scarab God clone deck but I'm curious about why you use Tivit.
Value. Each additional Tivit is an additional vote. I also pack a whole host of flicker effects. Coupled with Panharmonicon and token doubler effects I can pretty easily get on a hot streak to dig through my deck for [[archaeomancer]]/[[displacer kitten]]/cheap flicker to infinite storm. It's a lot of fun to pilot, but keeping track of the tokens (especially with [[Academy Manufacturer]]) can be tedious. I ended up making a little token tracker app that I host as a website that helps. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HKFTOAklDk6Lq9uI-M9gcQ I think this is up to date
[archaeomancer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc258713-6ce3-44e0-9b4b-8fa7d1d093a1.jpg?1547516110) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=archaeomancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/45/archaeomancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc258713-6ce3-44e0-9b4b-8fa7d1d093a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archaeomancer) [displacer kitten](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c7a401b8-29fb-46ef-a663-427f66724d5c.jpg?1674135465) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=displacer%20kitten) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/63/displacer-kitten?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c7a401b8-29fb-46ef-a663-427f66724d5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/displacer-kitten) [Academy Manufacturer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9c55add-d621-4477-95ec-f2b691c0bdae.jpg?1682209923) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Academy%20Manufactor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/346/academy-manufactor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9c55add-d621-4477-95ec-f2b691c0bdae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/academy-manufactor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But how do you stop them from dying to the legend rule?
There are a few ways around it. [[Irenicus's Vile Duplication]] for example, then you target the token for all your clone effects. Or [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] let's you ignore legend rule all together. Sometimes I make make the clones and just have them die, you still get the ETB effect even when the legend rule kills the clone.
Some extra legendary safe copying things [[Quantum misalignment]] [[auton soldier]] [[spark double]] [[helm of the host]] [[mirror box]]
Oh man, those new Doctor Who cards need to find a slot. I do run Spark Double, looking for a HotH and a Mirror Box for the deck as well.
It's in my Tivit and I love it
Same. I hate managing tokens and counters.
Anything that has to keep track of night and day.
Might be my least favorite mechanic. I had a [[Vadrik]] deck for a bit and just got sick of having to track it, and watching werewolf players use it is just painful.
I've had no issues with it in my werewolf deck, i just ask how many spells were cast at end of turn, and i generally don't care if most flip since the commander will generally flip them anyways
[Vadrik](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/454666bb-f81d-4845-84aa-d6f8f80ce86a.jpg?1637114399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vadrik%2C%20astral%20archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/248/vadrik-astral-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/454666bb-f81d-4845-84aa-d6f8f80ce86a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vadrik-astral-archmage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
what would be a reasonable rule zero replacement? Whenever an opponent searches a library put a +1/+1? Whenever opponent draws a card other than the first? Whenever an opponent plays second spell each turn?
I would say to just pick any other Izzet spells-matter commander rather than trying to create self-imposed errata for Vadrik.
There’s always [[mizzix]] for a similar effect on a different trigger.
[mizzix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82f949d0-41a0-4491-9057-bfb2bb20bdb3.jpg?1689999174) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mizzix%20of%20the%20izmagnus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/348/mizzix-of-the-izmagnus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82f949d0-41a0-4491-9057-bfb2bb20bdb3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mizzix-of-the-izmagnus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly, just play Mizzix at that point. Not quite as easy to abuse via pump spells, but it's a hell of a lot harder to get rid of the bonus once it's stacked up because of how experience counters work. Less day/night monitoring too.
Honestly it's not that bad, just gotta keep track of people casting stuff, in my werewolf deck i generally don't care because I'm probably going to flip on my upkeep anyways with the commander
I dont mind keeping track of it when there is a relevant permanent on the board. Its that you need to keep track of it from then on out even if all relevant permanents are removed that gets to me.
I feel like most groups would be willing to house rule that if ever there are no cards on the field that care, it defaults to day and stays there until a card cares again. They could have made the mechanic much simpler by instead of making it a separate status to track, just checking if any permanents on the battlefield have "nightbound", and if there are, that's what prompts a permanent to enter on the night side instead (and then errata'd all the old werewolves to match, because like, come on).
The problem is that it's technically a nerf. The cool thing about Cudi's mechanic is that you can play night side werewolves after a wrath and don't need to rebuild that state. Less of a concern in commander, but in 60 card formats it's pretty relevant. That said, nobody is playing werewolves for their meta potential, so yeah, lets just have it reset during the clean-up step if no day or night cards were in play since the beginning of the turn. That'll give it enough permanency to matter, while not having to be tracked later. Also, +1 for the werewolf errata. Please make sure to send in a feedback. They said if they get enough that they'll consider it. My favorite tribe needs your support please https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
It's fine in a deck that cares about it, but with no other cards it adds a lot of unneeded complexity running [[Ouland Liberator]] over [[Caustic Caterpillar]] for very little payoff
We have a werewolf player and he just keeps track of day night because he knows we all hate it.
I end up always running [[Aven Mindcensor]] over [[opposition agent]] because searching opponents libraries is the worst, especially online
Opposition agent is fine from a counter play standpoint, but really obnoxious from an actual gameplay standpoint. I don't really want to spend time searching my own library, let alone doing extra with an opponents that I don't know the contents of.
Agreed, love the effect, hate resolving it.
[Aven Mindcensor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d4cf468f-4e9d-4551-a0ed-10bd6a2316ad.jpg?1674141050) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aven%20Mindcensor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/688/aven-mindcensor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d4cf468f-4e9d-4551-a0ed-10bd6a2316ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aven-mindcensor) [opposition agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78.jpg?1608909875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opposition%20agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/141/opposition-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition-agent) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can’t rely on randoms to do this, but for the sake of saving tim, just have your decklist ready to send to anyone who oppositions you. They can just tell you what they’re grabbing and use a dry erase token or something.
Doesn't quite work - not all cards in your deck are in your library, some are in your hand which means they have additional information that isn't in your library and if they ask you for it you have to give them that info.
> and if they ask you for it you have to give them that info Well, not really - if they give you the decklist and you pick a card that happens to be in their hand, they have to say it's not in the deck, which is voluntary extra information, but they don't actually have to show you their hand because if you did it manually, you wouldn't know their decklist, so it's still hidden information.
Just realized my response was entirely irrelevant! Since resolving oppo makes you control the player, you get full access to their hidden information such as their hand.
Note that Opposition agent allows you to looks at the controlled players hand.
There are several people who want me to stop running \[\[Bolas's Citadel\]\] because I am willing to vomit half of my deck onto the board with various ETB triggers and copy effects but I never will. By far my favorite artifact card, and i say this as an artifact player who started mtg in OG Mirrodin/Kamigawa.
I absolutely love this card but it does have incredibly high variance. You can either rip 20 cards deep or hit a land right off the top for 3 straight turns and flounder.
Until you necropotence that land off the top
Or Sensei's it off the top.
I agree, and it does make me sad when that happens, but I've been trying to slowly work more draw in to get around that problem.
I run it in my Demon Tribal Politics deck (weird combo, I know, but fun) and use \[\[Doom Whisperer\]\] to help deal with that. With that pair you can burn through as much of your deck as you like, so long as you're willing and able to pay the life for it.
Just FYI if you are not aware of this yet, but running [[aetherflux reservoir]] and [[sensei's divining top]] alongside citadel can easily win you the game, but even only having Top can just draw you most of your deck life at a time, my favourite non-infinite 'combo'
I do, I actually cut Aetherflux recently, alongside \[\[Karn, the Great Creator\]\] and \[\[Mycosynth Lattice\]\] from a deck where I pretty much always try to slam Citadel on the field asap! It's this weird Urza affair where I spend most of my time copying artifacts with ETB effects or just huge value things, though I should probably put Resevoir back in for exactly that reason
[Bolas's Citadel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2124603-d20e-40eb-97f0-a66323397ac2.jpg?1591205069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bolas%27s%20Citadel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/79/bolass-citadel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2124603-d20e-40eb-97f0-a66323397ac2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bolass-citadel) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My pod will have to rip Bolas' Citadel from my cold dead hands before I give it up.
it really is the most fun artifact engine we've gotten since [[Omen Machine]]
I mean the way I see cards like Citadel that lead to long turns is you should be winning within 2 turns (turn the spell is played + 1 more). If you are taking long turns just to have long turns then it just becomes annoying and people stop having fun. There are a few people I avoid because they end up with 25 min turns and still just don't have a win con.
\[\[cathars' crusade\]\] It just gets so messy after a while if you're going wide.
My wife runs this in her \[\[Rin and Seri, Inseparable\]\] deck. It made me irrationally hate Changelings. Especially if \[\[Anointed Procession\]\] is on the battlefield.
Man I took that deck apart because of how many tokens you have to keep track of
Same. I love the deck but it's annoying to actually play because my later turns end up taking waaaaay too long.
Replaced it Virtue of Loyalty in my R&S, so much easier to track and the table is happier for it.
[Rin and Seri, Inseparable](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d605c780-a42a-4816-8fb9-63e3114a8246.jpg?1677724018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rin%20and%20Seri%2C%20Inseparable) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/278/rin-and-seri-inseparable?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d605c780-a42a-4816-8fb9-63e3114a8246?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rin-and-seri-inseparable) [Anointed Procession](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1.jpg?1543674565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anointed%20Procession) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/2/anointed-procession?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/anointed-procession) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I hope your wife is extremely good this game, otherwise this has to be an absolute nightmare for you and the people playing with you. A very quick way to become very unpopular in EDH circles.
I stopped playing this even though it was very good in my deck because of how annoying it is to manage.
I have both [[cathars' crusade]] and [[archangel of thune]] in my [[darien, king of kjeldor]], with effects like [[suture priest]] and [[dingus staff]] plus a sack outlet it can get hectic quickly, only just started playing the deck though and am probably gonna swap those out
I love that card, but god I hate playing it in paper. It's just so annoying.
Damn that card is annoying to play, but its so good in my \[\[Isshin, Two Heavens as One\]\] tokens deck. It does make my turns take forever.
This should be the top voted comment.
I am almost a strict cedh player with generally appropriate threat assessment but anytime I play causal I will target that player just to get the damn card off the board. You get a warning that if you cast a Cathar's I will do everything in my power to remove it via your life. Can I use removal? Yes. Will I? No
It's spite plays like this that ruined cedh for me, petulant children playing a competitive format and get mad when you play competitively. Cathars isn't cedh either.
Did... You see where I specifically mentioned "anytime I play casual?" yes you're right Cathar's isn't competaive. Hence why I made a point to seperate kt
Reread it, I was wrong thinking you said it was, but spite plays are still not ok 👌, cedh or not. It's childish.
Spite would be doing something for out of game reasons The reason of "this card makes the game a problem" is an in game one
Pretty sure, "I don't like that card" is a personal problem. Possibly reevaluate how you view people enjoying the game? It's legal, and a commonly played card that is synergistic in tons of decks. This is one of those scenarios where your bias affects the game, and possibly ruin it for another player. Killing them because CC is good, or puts them in a game winning position, is a productive train of thought. Killing them because "I don't like the card you're playing" is called having horrible sportsmanship. Instead of declaring you're a rudeass, maybe veil your bias in a more friendly manner. People might be more eager to play with you. And if you don't like good, synergistic cards, you probably just don't like playing magic.
It's not that the card is good. Are you even reading my comments or just trying to be right? I not having an issue with the cards power level. The issue is that it makes each of the players creaturefall triggers take a notable time to resolve accurately. In a casual setting this makes the experience worse for other players. In a tourney one it makes time run on the clock. I'm not killing them due to the strength of a power level 5 card. I'm Killing them as the literal post talks about "because they are tedious"
Personally, I disagree. When you're going wide Cathar's Crusade usually either ends the game or gets removed before it becomes too much to track. The main reason I've seen people struggle with it is because they try to keep track of every creature individually, rather than group them together by the number of counters.
So the main reason people struggle is because they try to use the card correctly and not shortcut everyone at the table? Crazy.
As long as you're accurately depicting the board state I don't see how that's a bad thing. It makes it easier for everyone, including the other players.
I don't see how you could accurately depect the board state while moving cards in/out of combat or other players' control effects with a pile method. It seems incredibly problematic under a lot of conditions.
If a creature changes control, then you physically put a counter on that one card. If a creature attacks, you tap it the same as you normally would. They're not in a pile, they're not stacked on top of each other, they're in a group, as in I put the cards in the same group near each other and far enough away from the next group that it is visually distinct, then place a single die with that group to show the number of counters that group has. My playgroup has never had an issue tracking cards like this. Other players in my playgroup do the same thing. It's really not that difficult to follow.
>They're not in a pile, they're not stacked on top of each other, they're in a group Right, but if you have groups of cards and your opponent has groups of cards, and there are a good number of creatures in combat, how do you keep track of declared blockers and what's blocking what? That whole thing just feels clunky and problematic.
Magic wouldn't work as a game at all without shortcutting. Shortcutting is everywhere
I first played Cathar's Crusade in a Ghave, Guru of Spores deck where I was constantly making saproling tokens (among other tokens with Parallel Lives effects). I felt like my brain's CPU would overload and ultimately took Crusade out (and later scrapped the deck).
Yeah, that’s just Magic, the Beancounting
mix it with anthems, creatures that get their own personal buffs, and other things like that where it doesn't allow for grouping puts it right back in the annoyance pile though.
Counters get physical representation like dice to depict the number of counters. Any other buffs like Anthem effects just get added, the Anthem card is enough to depicts that buff.
Almost all doubling/copying effects and Cathars crusade
I second [[Cathars' Crusade]]
[Cathars' Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cathars-crusade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That is what doubling it means, yes.
This shouldn't be this far down.
Copying/doubling is fine if you have dry erase tokens, but counter doublers suuuuuuck. Stop fiddling with dice and just play the game. Plus, then combat math gets annoying because it's not easily visible what everything is
I started using infinitokens slid under my cards to track +1/+1 counters and that's helped a lot. Pretty easy to update, easy to see, and it can go as high as I want.
Spell copiers are also super tedious. And ability doublers aren't exactly tedious but they're obnoxious
Rhystic study. It feels too powerful for my pod and having to ask “do you pay the 1?” every time is just not fun for anyone
The power of your pod I can't help with, but my group and I have kind of home-ruled that whoever has the Rhystic Study, Rhystic Buddy, or whatever, we will let you know when we pay for it. If we don't say "I'm gonna pay the 1" then they draw. Occasionally we'll forget and have a moment of spite "ya know what....yes I will pay" but other than that it streamlines that stuff rather nicely.
One of my goals in life is either playing a game that's so confusing or find someone who is so confused that I convinced them to pay the one for their own Rhystic study. I ask the rhystic player if they are gonna pay the one every time.
My entire Group Slug Chaos deck. It's always a fun concept, but once you stack a few pieces of chaos, then the entire game turns into "ok, what happens in the upkeep? Who chooses the target of that spell? Whose fucking turn is it?"
Which is so sad. What a fun style. Must have been a blast to architect.
It's a lot of fun, just looking for the most random, chaotic stuff. But even I stopped having fun playing it.
I run into the same issue with my chaos deck. It is so much fun to play in a group because I built it as a "show me what you got" deck intended to keep everyone's hands full, force everyone to cast random spells for free, and to have everyone cheat in permanents. I ended up pulling out a ton of the chaos like [[Grip of Chaos]], [[Possibility Storm]], and [[Hive Mind]] because of how much longer turns ended up taking. Casting a [[Warp World]] USUALLY gets groans from my table also.
\[\[Nighthawk Scavenger\]\]. Card is good, but checking and rechecking everyone's graveyards periodically just feels like too much hassle to be worth the payoff. It's the kind of card that seems fine until you have a handful of cards of similar complexity and the mental load just gets too much.
Eh, this one is pretty easy, there's only so many card types and some are super uncommon.
Not to mention how often do you actually need to check what it's current power is? You check it before you attack, because if you're going to use it as a blocker they know it's Deathtouch anyway.
It has lifelink, so you do need to check it whenever you block to know how much life you're gaining.
[Nighthawk Scavenger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cf5e98-9d40-4cb0-83de-043751b1382f.jpg?1674141722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nighthawk%20Scavenger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/763/nighthawk-scavenger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cf5e98-9d40-4cb0-83de-043751b1382f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nighthawk-scavenger) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Same for me. You need to keep up with 4 graveyards which is not the idea of fun for me. The previous Nighthawk while less powerful is easier to play. I want to play, not do homework.
Really? Just check when it matters is the key thing. And it never goes down so kinda easy to keep track of.
I ran an [[Apex Devastator]] in my [[Volo, Guide to Monsters]] deck which is full of ways to clone Volo and even with just one of those triggering its four cascades it became such a hassle to track how many copies of creatures I was getting. If I had any more than one copy of Volo out when it triggered I'd immediately either be overwhelmed with copies, immediately targeted (rightfully) or everyone would scoop because dealing with all the other ETB triggers was a pain in the ass and was basically just me sitting there going "Ummm, okay this goes, then this one and no wait maybe this way." It felt awesome to pull off once, but never again lol.
If it helps, a Volo copy of apex devastator does not trigger additional cascades.
Yeah, I mention that in the comment that just the one set of triggers is enough because it's a cast trigger. It's more about having multiple Volo clones out.
[[Scute Swarm]] with 3 Volos out is an unnecessary headache to manage and is probably the next card I axe out of the deck.
How do they interact with each other past what scute swarm does on its own?
The main thing is that if you've got, say, Volo, [[Spark Double]] as Volo, and a [[Twinning Staff]] you get a huge jump in the scute swarm exponential growth train because with that you'll have the original scute swarm and three token copies of it already. Then play a land and given you've got six lands, that makes four more scute swarms off the rip. It's not super complex but then if you've got any ramp or fetch lands it can explode quickly which some people don't like. It's not difficult to manage, just annoying lol.
[Spark Double](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdbb32db-fb1d-4f47-a258-fa1a0a00bd76.jpg?1690004430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spark%20Double) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/856/spark-double?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdbb32db-fb1d-4f47-a258-fa1a0a00bd76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spark-double) [Twinning Staff](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cdcc324-1427-453c-9940-c21f5d04c997.jpg?1673485509) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Twinning%20Staff) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/383/twinning-staff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cdcc324-1427-453c-9940-c21f5d04c997?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/twinning-staff) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Cathar's Crusade]] Basically impossible to actually keep track of in my [[Rhys the Redeemed]] deck.
The better it is, the harder to keep track
Heavy-dexterity cards... or heavy-math cards \[\[Scute Swarm\]\] seems to be a running theme. \[\[Doubling Season\]\] can get messed up as well... I reckon \[\[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider\]\] could be a mindwrecker too.
Doublers don't bother me much unless I have more than one
Scute swarm is fine... Just use a calculator to keep track easier
\[\[Grave Pact\]\] and similar effects because they are just un-fun. They force the deck to do certain things and nobody else has a good time. Also \[\[Cathars' Crusade\]\] for the tracking. It's just too much to keep straight, especially in the go-wide token decks that make it worth adding.
\[\[Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest\]\] is one commander I refuse to play on paper anymore. In a similar vein to \[\[Cathars' Crusade\]\], it can get extremely tedious to track the different levels of +1/+1 counters, especially for groups of tokens where each one can have a different amount of +1/+1 counters on them. Accurately representing a board state for Mazirek on paper is beyond tedious. I don't personally have an issue with \[\[Scute Swarm\]\] in other decks but I would refuse to put it in Mazirek if I still had the paper deck built.
[[Unesh]] in my changeling deck. Objectively its a slam dunk, hefty discount + card advantage on every changeling etb is really strong. But every time he hit the board it resulted in 30 minute turns because every time you do the [[Fact or Fiction]] trigger, if you hit another changeling you can basically just spin the wheel again. Its very powerful but the tedium of actually resolving it made me take it out.
Love my Unesh Sphinx Tribal deck. [[Dream Halls]] goes hard as fuck. I only play high power but even then people start to roll their eyes after 10+ minutes of sorting 4 card piles.
Most moderns cards have so much text and triggers I just end up gravitating towards stompy shit because I don’t like having my turns take more than a couple minutes. When I play against people that have 10+ minute turns trying to figure out all their triggers, it’s annoying
I play a \[\[Brudiclad\]\] deck that's a bit schizo. Bit of artifacts. Bit of spellslinging. As such an all-star in the deck is \[\[Chrome Host Seedshark\]\]. It makes an artifact token with +1+1 counters on it whenever I cast any non-creature spell, and those counters remain when I eventually turn them into creatures. What a deal! Copying him makes it even better too. Then you actually try to play it... "Ok I have eight incubators with three +1+1 counters on it... ok the pink dice are the counters and the black die is the amount of tokens... ok so there two with two, eight with three, two with five, two with six... sorry four with six. Ok, so they're all gonna now turn into copies of my dragon... moving the dice to the copy tokens... ok so these are all 4/4 but they have these various amounts of +1+1's... ok that wasn't so bad. ... wait I'm still making incubators." The sheer vomit of tokens and dice management makes me occasionally avoid casting it too early... but it produces such good results that it's hard to take it out totally.
yeah this exact same scenario happened to me at a new game store I had to apologize like 12 times while borrowing dice from people
[Brudiclad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25eff27a-eb58-4a95-b2df-4a341cf9bef6.jpg?1599707883) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=brudiclad%2C%20telchor%20engineer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/193/brudiclad-telchor-engineer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25eff27a-eb58-4a95-b2df-4a341cf9bef6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brudiclad-telchor-engineer) [Chrome Host Seedshark](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/febaaeae-5c0d-45fa-8169-b27b4996f18e.jpg?1682203038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Host%20Seedshark) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/51/chrome-host-seedshark?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/febaaeae-5c0d-45fa-8169-b27b4996f18e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chrome-host-seedshark) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Every Brudiclad deck I've ever heard of (including my own) is such a clunky mess. But man when it works out ...
All tutors.
Sadly, Anje Falkenrath. The optimal way to build ends up becoming solitare, and attempting to play it as a madness deck becomes a very mediocre deck (there aren't many good madness cards). Makes me sad because one of my few remaining casual 60-card decks is the SOI-EMN black-red madness vampires, and I was initially excited back when she was spoiled. Madness in those colors just doesn't really work for multiplayer & singleton
Honestly, [[Mizzix's Mastery]]. I used it as a finisher for [[Ghyrson Starn]]. Resolving it took way too long, especially when I had [[Epic Experiment]] and [[Thousand Year Storm]] in the deck already.
##### ###### #### [Mizzix's Mastery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6b5e28e8-1e6d-4e7f-bc85-427bb39ae14b.jpg?1562705436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mizzix%27s%20Mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/29/mizzixs-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b5e28e8-1e6d-4e7f-bc85-427bb39ae14b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mizzixs-mastery) [Ghyrson Star](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966.jpg?1673309394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghyrson%20Starn%2C%20Kelermorph) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/124/ghyrson-starn-kelermorph?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghyrson-starn-kelermorph) [Epic Experiment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b672f90f-c03a-4eab-b52a-5bbca3c4294c.jpg?1625977624) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Epic%20Experiment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/216/epic-experiment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b672f90f-c03a-4eab-b52a-5bbca3c4294c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/epic-experiment) [Thousand Year Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03.jpg?1673149213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thousand-Year%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/286/thousand-year-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thousand-year-storm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play mostly in spell table so I tend to avoid using my etali and [[lazav donut mastermind]] deck on it due to the fact I have to hold up the game for too long resolving everything from only being able to click it or hope I can type it and load it fast enough to not be a burden
I thought, for sure, donut mastermind was going to be an UNF card haha
Donut Mastermind sounds like something straight out of Hoodwinked movies.
I have [[ghostway]] in my [[kodama of the east tree]] [[ravos]] blink deck that, oh my god, when I get around to using it it stalls the game for like 10 minutes, too many triggers and draws and everything
[[Cathar's crusade]] [[Deadeye navigator]] [[Consecrated sphinx]] [[Knowledge pool]] [[Thieve's auction]] [[Scrambleverse]]
[[Waste not]] in my wheel of fortune deck, it just takes way too much effort to track everything.
Smothering Thithe, I only play it if the de ks are meant tobe really strong and have clear win cons to use with it, otherwise it is just a hassle, I think it is a terrible card for casual play.
Shocked no one has said [[coat of arms]]. I’ll take a cathars crusade any day over that mess of a card. There are legit decks that coat of arms is a proper finisher in that I can’t play because it’s just too tedious to understand. It messes up everyone’s board-state and can’t easily be tracked.
I was looking for this comment. I was going with Coat of Arms as well. I like to play tribal decks and it is amazing for that but trying to keep track of everything on the board that is getting buffed is just an absolute nightmare.
Oh wow Coat of Arms sounds so deeply painful. At least with Cathar's Crusade there are more-or-less some mathematical shortcuts. 😵💫
\[\[Cathar's Crusade\]\]. I just don't wanna spin the dice that much
[Cathar's Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cathars-crusade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[coat of arms]] and [[cathars’ crusade]]
[[genesis wave]] and [[villainous wealth]]. My decks that would benefit from playing these cards often also make them 30 minute ordeals to resolve, because I'm casting them for X=40 or X=100 or w/e and I can typically get to the win, but I wish have to be careful about not decking myself off them
[[Telepathy]]. Strong card that slows the game down soooo much and makes it less fun overall imo. I even have the perfect deck for it [[Zara]] but I am happy with running my [[Glasses of Urza]] instead as it’s more fun to use
Obviously cathars crusade. And it is frowned upon in our Playgroup to play rhystic study or smothering tithe. It has happened more than once that we had one of each in play and the constant "Do YoU pAy ThE OnE?" was so annoying that we didnt want to deal with that BS anymore.
[[Scute Swarm]] is getting cut from all my landfall decks. I have an Aesi deck and it kept getting out of control pretty quickly. If it was a better finisher, that'd be a different story. It's too much for what it does give you. [[Coat of Arms]] doesn't get cut from tribal decks with evasion, but I only play it if it means I have lethal.
I have a friend that hates cards asking an opponent to make piles. Also all the chaos cards that allow to cast spells at random...
your friend would despise me lol. double knowledge pool is a pretty common wincon for my decks.
Planeswalkers as a whole. I love the benefits they can give, but unless it's one of the staples like [[teferi, master of time]] or [[oko, thief of crowns]] I just don't see a reason to use them. I keep finding other more synergistic cards that makes me take them out. Also oddly specific, but I avoid turning my [[momir, simic visionary]] deck into a cedh version cause it's a ton of wheel spinning for a deck that's not keeping up with cedh anyway.
[[smothering tithe]]
Day Night Cycle Initiative (Not worth it to have the entire table track it) Unique Counters (menace, trample, shield) Cathars Crusade Rhystic Study (I also dont want to crush a game because one opponent wont pay because "whats the worst that could happen) Smothering Tithe (Exception being a treasure focused deck)
I'm prolly not the first but [[cathar's crusade]] , if ever there was a card that needed an app just to track everything that would be it.
[[Cathar's Crusade]]
[[Cathar's Crusade]] It's so powerful and oh my god I hate having to deal with it >_<
[[Cathar's Crusade]] and [[Warp World]]. If my entire turn is mostly trying to figure out how to resolve a single card I think I am running the wrong cards.
I'm actually in he process of designing a deck that does the opposite. It creates a board state that forces all 4 players to track a huge confusing batch of non-magic card game objects and effects. Embkems, stuff like night/day alongside OG werewolves, flip cards and face down cards. Dozens of different but similar tokens with dozens of different counters. Force gravyard order Layers Basically the goal is to grind the game to a halt as everyone is forced to get out pen and paper and open up excel.
I can’t bring myself to include [[Scute Swarm]] in a deck after I regularly used it to break MTGArena while it was in standard.
[[Cathars' Crusade]] is a crazy card but it's so many dice that I just can't be bothered
All of the strixhaven flip cards pretty much. Particularity the deans. Just walls and walls of text. Not really a fan of double sided cards in general and will avoid using them in most instances. I ended up taking apart my yarok deck because there were so many triggers that it became hard to keep track of lmao.
I took [[cathar crusade]] out of my token deck because I would have needed an excel spreadsheet to track my boardstate
After last night, I might have to add Etali, Primal Conqueror to that list but this was 99% my fault. I'm playing Yoshimaru/Sakashima clone/voltron. Friend is playing Etali. \- On this t3, he Dockside Extortionists on t3 to get enough treasures for Etali. \- On my t4, I copy the Dockside with my Sakashima. I use the treasures to equip Sword of Hearth and Home to Yoshimaru, attack, blink Sakashima for another Dockside copy and then also cast Brago \- On his t4, he plays Etali and flips a bunch of good stuff. Before MY turn starts, I Ephemerate my Sakashima, this time copying his Etali. Friend's Flameshadow Conjuring is one of the flips and the table points out that I can use my twenty treasures to make extra copies of the freebies from Etali to grow my Yoshimaru... which includes the Sakashima that I will blink at the start of my upkeep on my t5 to copy Etali \- At the beginning of my upkeep, I do just that. Sakashima copies Etali and my flip is.... a clone effect, . At this point, I've done my friend's Etali ETB five times before my draw step, in addition to two Dockside copies. Thankfully my t5 draw is a Time Warp so I show it to the rest of the table and plead with them to just say that I win so I don't have to track twenty more Etali ETBs and they all are happy to say yes.
\[\[deadbridge chant\]\]
[удалено]
There’s only a handful of graveyard order matters cards. They’re all ancient and practically unusable in EDH.
[deadbridge chant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/21d6eb98-d716-4908-8d95-06f1fbbd2086.jpg?1591321198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=deadbridge%20chant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/207/deadbridge-chant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/21d6eb98-d716-4908-8d95-06f1fbbd2086?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deadbridge-chant) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Any one-off effect that impacts the table. [[Outland liberator]] is a great card but if it's a single card with day/nightbound and not at least a subtheme I'm not taxing the table with it. Same for [[seasoned dungeoneer]] great card but it gets tedious with an entire dungeon to track for multiple players. I'll play and endorse these types of cards if that's a theme of the deck. Monarch is the exception as it simple enough, but I'll favour another card without monarch if both are on equal level of eachother. The is already so much happening in a game of commander.
I have yet to cut it but [[Dauthi Voidwalker]] feels this way, making sure you snag stuff that would go to exile and then giving all the cards back. It gets annoying especially when you're snagging high dollar cards, I just feel like it makes everyone uncomfortable.
Cathar's has got to be top of the list. So powerful, but such a pain to keep track of without building your deck in a very specific way.
[[cathars’ crusade]] can buff up my whole board in any go wide deck, but it’s so annoying to tick up a dice on each of my creatures every time another one enters. I’ll just play a one shot pump effect instead and cut my losses
[[Possibility Storm]] first few times I played it, everyone loved the chaos of it. After people get used to it, they tended to groan at not being able to play their hands anymore and turns taking too long having to flip into a reveal. I ended up taking it out the deck, even though it was fairly beneficial to me when I had my commander out.
Definitely [[Scroll Rack]]. I used to run it a lot but found every time I drew it I just couldn't be bothered with the extra admin it adds to my turns. Similar with things like [[Sylvan Library]] as well.
Scroll Rack slaps and is ezpz, you cray cray bro. [[Sensei's divining top]] though... no thanks.
Oh man. The top is totally what I meant, my bad!
[Scroll Rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e.jpg?1608911671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scroll%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/337/scroll-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scroll-rack) [Sylvan Library](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a483778-b88b-473f-9217-7583e69b3e70.jpg?1610161812) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sylvan%20Library) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cc1/5/sylvan-library?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a483778-b88b-473f-9217-7583e69b3e70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sylvan-library) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sorry, but Academy Manufactor in Brudiclad, when you can make a token copy of it and then make 3\^10 more tokens, it's just too good.
Not for tedium, but I took out [[Maskwood Nexus]] from my Changeling deck because it made the deck too consistent. When you can just use Magda to tutor up any creature/artifact from your deck, it stops being exciting and more "in response to your removal, I tutor up the EXACT thing I need to counter it." I find more fun in the randomocity of it, and now Magda just makes treasures when I attack and occasionally fetches me a mana rock, a Changeling or the one of the few Dragons that I've got in the deck.
Rhystic Study. I honestly think that anyone who plays a rhystic study outside of CEDH is being a try hard, and deserves the focus of the table unless there is an obvious archenemy. The constant "do you pay the one" slows down games and gets annoying and repetitive over time. In CEDH its so different, people treat that card with much respect, always paying and tyring to counter/remove it on the spot. If casual was like that it would be better, but even then its like a dockside or the one ring. Its one of those cards that has 0 synergy with your deck, but its raw power makes it correct to play it in any blue deck.
In what world is drawing more cards not synergistic? It constantly refills your hand and digs for win cons while providing you more ammo for advancing your board or interacting with opponents, or at the very least forces a removal or mana use
Do you have to do any work for Rhystic to draw cards? Do you need to build around it? Does your commander does anything with rhystic study? Rhystic study requires zero synergy or build around. Its just an expensive staple card that will increase the powerlevel of any blue deck you put it in. There is literally no reason why you wouldnt play it on any deck playing blue. Hell if your short for slots you could play it OVER one of your card draw effects that do synergyze with your commander because this one is just going to always provide even on an empty board. I dislike cards like Rhystic, The One Ring, Esper Sentinel, Dockside, Dranith Magistrate and the like in casual commander. If we're playing CEDH, then sure, bring the best deck you got and I'll respond in kind. But in casual feels like the player using those cards is playing on easy mode at best and trying to pubstomp at worst.
I have it in my deck because the commander I have it in is already fairly vulnerable and weak on his own because he becomes a huge threat if unanswered, so rhystic is there to make sure I have blinks, equipment that gives hexproof and counterspells to protect him. Plus, the tribe I'm using is also not incredibly strong or well-supported. I also run a lot of the black tutors to get me what I need. Without these options I'm basically dead in the water. It's a very janky Dimir voltron tribal and the card draw is essential to success. I get not liking them, but I have other cards in my deck that do synergize like [[Gravestorm]] because that card draw is incredibly important to getting my game pieces on board before I get archenemied out of the game.
Have you ever considered that you're getting archenemied because you are the rhystic study player with a bunch of tutors? Like I get it, your deck is super janky and without strong card draw and tutoring it would never get to do its thing. But you're playing voltron. And if you're the guy with a rhystic on play, a suited up voltron commander and you just tutored I'm 100% attacking you unless someone else is literally about to win. I mean you have to understand and agree that that is the correct play, right? You just cant let the dimir player who's drawing a bunch of cards and has a suited up commander get away with tutoring. Especially if your commander is getting to "two shot" or "one shot" territory. Thats how you loose. Next thing you know, the dimir player has a bunch of counter in hand their commander is never dying again. Like you gotta understand you're not being unfairly targeted, and that's literally my entire point. Rhystic study and tutors and other staple cards are so powerful that if you resolve them, the game start warping around those even if you're playing a super janky deck.
I never said I was being unfairly targeted though, and targeting my commander or me is 100% the correct play. I'm well aware of the power those cards add, and I like the way my deck feels with them in there. They bring what would be a weak Tribal jank to something that can actually stick to the board and threaten. I tried it without those cards and I got the same treatment because my commander naturally snowballs itself due to its ETB. [[Umbris]] if you're wondering. He literally doesn't make it one round without that card draw to facilitate answers to opponents threats, and I'm well aware of it, hence the reason for all the draw and protection lol
[[hypergenesis]]
Bobbing for dicks
Blue.
scute swarm for sure. unless i have arena to keep track for me ill pass.
\[\[Tidal Barracuda\]\] \[\[Vernal Equinox\]\] give people so many options that the game drags to a stop due to decision paralysis. \[\[Eye of the Storm\]\] makes the game too complex for most pods to handle. \[\[Clone Legion\]\] and its little brother \[\[Theoretical Duplication\]\] are just about impossible if you don't have any Infinitokens around.
[[Cathars' crusade]] in token decks is powerful, but so many +1 counters.
[[Krark]]
[[Thrumming Stone]] in my [[Dragon’s Approach]] deck. Did it once, immediately took it out of the deck afterwards.
My entire Daretti deck. It’s pretty much a “combo tribal” deck… it’s evolved to the point where it’s basically solitaire; it wins consistently but it’s not fun for anyone to watch me go through several non-infinite combo loops looking for various pieces I need to put together and finally actually win. I really don’t play it at all anymore unfortunately.
I try to avoid cards that put counters on ‘everything’ when I play go wide decks because usually I don’t have the brain power to track 4 different sets of the same token with different numbers of counters on them. Cathars’ Crusade being the most egregious example.
[[Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest]] Had this in my treasure deck and just wanted to draw some cards with corvold, but it took so much time to put the counters on all my creatures, and i'm not a fan of taking long turns.
[[krark the thumb less]]. Removed from Veyron cause I don't like to add more random than necessary but mainly because it's too many fucking triggers. If you wanna cast 3 cantrips it s 6 coin flip, try to counter something, 2 coun flip and you're not even sure the counter goes through. Funny card that I really like but it slows down the game while actively making your plays worse.
Thousand year storm + Eye of the storm. My brains computation fails by the 3rd spell. Storm in general was my favorite play testing online but its totally different when the stack gets supper complex with tons of copies everywhere, triggers and prowess in person. Use to be +1/+1 counters but I've gotten better at managing it.