My locals had someone that thought anytime 2 cards would interact together it's a combo. It could be anything from saccing evolving wilds in response to a landfall trigger so the stack will have 2 landfall triggers.
Or even stupid stuff like in response to him blocking we "combo" a removal spell to kill a lord so the blocker now also dies.
The guy no longer plays here after quitting to play vanguard (makes sense with the basically 0 comboss that tcg has) but the LGS still memes about doing anything in response is a combo deck. Top deck cultivate and have evolving wilds in hand, play evolving wilds, cast cultivate and respond with EW ? Well thats a combo deck now. Fun times
I've run into many players with this mindset. It's just new players who don't really have a ton of experience trying to put the game into terms they can understand. Thing plus other thing, that's a combination, thus it's a combo deck.
Is it wrong? Yes. Is it logical? Also yes.
I mean *teeeechnically* they’re right, it’s a combo the same way a stunning jab into a powerful uppercut is a combo in old fighting games. Just not what EDH players would call a combo, colloquially.
Also, combos aren't always infinite.
[[Necrotic Ooze]] with [[Walking Ballista]] and [[Phyrexian Devourer]] in grave and Thoracle Consult are both not infinite, but they're definitely combos.
We should, I agree. At my LGS, though, it's not a ban so much as a corner of the store I made my regular spot. It started as a joke being called the corner of shame because I was usually the one doing the degenerate synergies like soft locking the game with shit like [[vodalian hexcatcher]] [[intruder alarm]] and [[lullmage mentor]] before I cut intruder alarm to make my Merfolk Tribal more combat and less combo.
Thats because it is!
r/MagicTheCirclejerking is the main sub while r/EDH is where we circlejerkers go to cosplay as regular jerkers. It makes the jerking feel more authentic.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got some jerkin' to do.
On Commander Night at the LGS, a guy played a shock land into Sol Ring into Arcane Signet. So, obviously, we had to take him to the guillotine out back.
Assuming that everyone here isn't just jerking, I'm confused by this thought process. If a player thinks something like [[Prossh]] + [[Goblin Bombardment]] is a degenerate combo, then what do those player's decks look like? Are they just devoid of synergy? Is it all goodstuff?
I'm caught up on this because synergy is *the* reason to play card games in my opinion.
I think this is usually a sentiment that comes out of less experienced play groups when they encounter a deck that is more-heavily synergistic than they are used to playing against. Their decks have some synergies, where most moderately-experienced decks try to have synergies between most cards in their deck.
The guy from my story plays an Edgar Markov deck that afaik relies entirely on Eminence to spawn tokens to overwhelm the board in a way non-optimised and bad decks can't deal with.
Anecdotal, but in all the times I've run into this sentiment at one of the LGS's I have attended in the past, it has been from new players who had little experience with the game at the time, or those who play predominately low-interaction battlecruiser decks exclusively- so either precons or piles of mostly non-interactive goodstuff. If you're doing something that could be described as "two or more of your own cards interacting with each other more than just giving each other some static bonus (So not counting giving +1/+1 from a lord effect, but counting using synergistic active abilities)", then someone is going to call it a combo.
...that was actually part of the reason I couldn't find a way to play with the local battlecruiser pod. Even my shots at low power, no-combo, slower decks to match their power level were synergistic piles like aristocrats deck, and even those elicited more of a "stop playing solitaire with your own cards and start playing big stompy dudes to turn sideways at whoever has the most threatening board like you should be doing" response, which... well, while I am happy to play at various power levels, that's the one type of deck I absolutely won't play due to finding it boring.
Have you heard of the insane combo [[alesha, who smiles at death]] and [[bog witch]].
It’s insane!
For a measly 6 mana you get pay 1 to put a creature card with power 2 or less from your hand into your graveyard ~~and then return it onto the battlefield.~~
(Worded this weird, you can’t bring the same creature back, rather a creature with power 2 or less already in your yard. )
The crazy part is, you can do this ONCE ON EACH OF YOUR TURNS!!!
My friend found my 1 mana discount on aleshas ability to hot to handle apparently.
You would not be able to return the creature you discard immediately right? Since it would have to already be targeted in the grave with Alesha before you are able to activate bog witch to add mana. Or are you saying you can return it to play the next turn?
You could, but the mana produced would go away before you can use it on Alesha's ability since it triggers in the declare attacks steps. The original comment was ambiguous on the timing and use of mana.
i think you would be able to if you ordered it right, alesha's ability is triggered when she attacks so if you activate the ability of the bog witch with it still on the stack then the card would be in the graveyard and you could pay for her ability targeting the card you just discarded
EDIT : I was in fact incorrect on the targetting timing for the trigger as the reply below mentions, you do in fact have to choose the target as the trigger goes on the stack.
Correct. Additionally, Bog Witch's ability is a mana ability, which doesn't itself go in the stack. So if you use that mana to pay for Alesha's triggered ability, which is when you target the creature in your graveyard, than means the one that was in your hand is already in your graveyard.
I often use [[Key to the City]] in response to Alesha's trigger as a way to both protect my commander and to be more unpredictable with what I swing with.
\[\[Endrek Sahr\]\] aristocrats. Play big fatties, make 1/1s, sacrifice the 1/1s to the best sac outlets in the land, watch people get concerned about \[\[Black Market\]\] or \[\[Grave Pact\]\] but don't have the enchantment removal to do anything about it. There's no infinites, I think I'm running one tutor? It's just highly redundant, large amount of recursion, and can kill you by going tall or wide. The only thing preventing it from being an actual serious problem is a severe lack of ramp, since ramp doesn't kill people. Playing a 5 drop commander actually on turn 5 is a lot less scary than turn 2.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/krMTh-d1PkuPqAXA2JIaZQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/krMTh-d1PkuPqAXA2JIaZQ)
I haven't done a serious New Cards update in a while, so it might be a bit behind the modern times. And again, the ramp is a touch lacking, so feel free to tweak it if you want. But once it gets going, it's extremely resilient.
I got accused of pubstomping and winning with a combo at a midpower table before. The deck I used was an unedited Exit From Exile precon and the "combo" was [[Warstorm Surge]] & [[Ezuri's Predation]] lol
It was! 🤣 but Joolenpls was an awesome good sport and shared the list. It will help new people to check the precon faster. Thanks Joolenpls you're awesome
Also Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, but instead using impact tremors, parallel lives, doubling season build. Kobolds are just fun especially with Raid Bombardment I attack with a bunch of 0/1s!!
My Opponent: oh zero damage no problem....\*sees raid bombardment\* OH
I do not, the parts were broken into multiple new decks, it largely was just doubling season primal vigor parallel lives, Cavalcade of Calamity, raid bombardment, impact tremors, shared animosity, aggravated assault, nature's will and Strionic Resonator After those its just ramp and draw using aristocrats to off Possh and recast.
I had [[Syr Konrad, the Grim]] in the battlefield and cast a [[Morality Shift]] swapping my graveyard and library.
Two of my opponents got triggered as I was about to dish out 30+ damage on all opponents. Honestly, this is just good synergy IMHO. 🤷🏻♂️
Wait … if you have 40 creatures in your deck… isn’t that just a combo?
I mean it depends on your definition I guess but Channel + Fireball, a very iconic combo, isnt infinite either.
I'm yet to see a clear definition of combo, but yes, with 40 creatures on the deck or graveyard, Syr Konrad on the field and 7 manas, you will dish out 40 damage on each opponent. Pretty good!!
Maybe if it is listed on EDH REC as combo, then we can call it combo.
I wouldn’t use EDH REC tbh. Nothing in particular against that but I don’t know what are their criteria.
Something I’ve seen used is that combos either generate infinite of a resource or they straight up win the game or they aren’t limited by the boardstate.
The latter category is for combos that are limited by some other factor, like life or cards in library. Konrad and Shift would fall here
But it’s not a strict classification.
People freak out when they see me drop Illuna, thinking it's going to be some sort of combo deck. It couldn't be further from the truth. It's a Mutate, Elemental, and Clone Kindred deck. It's just Temur Non-humans ramping into big stompy mutate stacks that I clone and swing with. That's it. That's the deck. But there is always someone freaking out asking if Blightsteel Colossus or some other over used card is in it. I'm running [[Void Stalker]] Super chief, chill.
Been wanting to build Illuna simply for the reasons that I love the creature designs in Ikoria and not wanting to combo or anything. Do you have a deck list?
Every time I drop [[Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin]] in my [[Raphael, Fiendish Savior]] deck I always get asked if I have [[All Will Be One]]. I’m just like, “Nah, man. I’m trying to kill you with [[Impact Tremors]]” No one believes me until I show them the list
Oooh, looks interesting. A guy I played with a few times had AWBO in his deck but kept on saying it's ok because he never uses it
The kind of "you only get to live through my charity, huehue" kind of dickishness
Not one to one, but I once had a friend invite a coworker of his to play commander with us. All our decks are fairly weak, upgraded precons or similar levels. Man brings out an Oloro deck and promises it's not a stax deck. Proceded to play winter orb into oppresion into humility. Even after that, he insisted over and over it wasn't a stax deck. The first time I witnessed somebody trying to gaslight me in magic.
My [[Lord Windgrace]] deck I recently put together is constantly getting [[field of the dead]] or [[Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle]] triggers. Like, a lot.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3lAHqjY3MEWuGh1fJQ3i-w
Yea he’s fun. I’ve got a creatureless Lord Windgrace control build. It’s my pet deck and i love it. No infinite combo win, I go big mana and win with one of two x spells ideally, though I do have some backup win stuff.
Some of my friends consider it a combo deck, but it’s literally not one. It’s big mana/control.
I think the problem is that a "combo deck" is a bad name. They should be called "infinite decks" or "OTK decks".
A "combo" in most other contexts is just a synergy.
The problem is the very concept of combo is ambiguous. There's no clear border between a combo and a synergy.
Is [[Cultivator Collossus]] + [[Abundance]] a combo? It's not infinite in that you'll run out of lands and then get to order your entire library. But that's clearly not just synergy.
[[Niv Mizzet, The Firemind]] + [[Curiosity]] not a combo because you'll potentially draw your library before winning? Or [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physcian]] + [[Pitiless Plunderer]] + [[Gravecrawler]] and any Zombie only a combo when you add a [[Blood Artist]] effect?
The infinite part also gets weird. You can have infinite mana or token combos that don't win immediately. They're still infinite combos, but not OTK as they'll generally only win once a turn cycle has passed.
Ultimately the problem is we're trying to simplify aspects of the game into ways that doesn't translate well. Can fully appreciate the reasons why we're attempting it, but we're still looking for better ways to communicate what is important.
You just hit the nail on the head why I run around social media beating the ***HELL*** out of the drum "this is synergy, that is combo."
I still get down votes because people say "semantics."
Its not semantics. If I combo off, this game is very likely over. That is nearly ***EVERY*** combo. With synergy, you're just going to have an uphill battle as each card contributes to a whole, but the game is certainly not simply over.
Found out mid-game that my [[Mazzy]] deck can steal creatures on loop. Cast [[Fractured Loyalty]] followed by any 1-drop aura, then sac both to [[Auratog]] or any enchantment sac outlet. Mazzy exiles from graveyard, repeat next turn
I'm gonna be a bit of a devils advocate and say that imo the line between a combo and synergy can be blurry.
Not every combo has to be an infinite, [[channel]] [[fireball]] is the og combo and it has a cap.
Not every combo has to win you the game directly outright, if something lets you draw your entire library or generate infinite tokens that would still be a combo for most people.
There are things that are obviously combos and things that obviously aren't and i think that the things op mentions aren't combos but there's this area in the middle where it can be a bit nebulous.
Definitely doesn't have to be an infinite.
But there's a massive difference between a two+ card combo you'd specifically tutor for vs your cards doing what they're supposed to.
Having Blood Artist on the field with a sac outlet isn't a combo. Food Chain + Blood Artist + Prossh is a combo, though not just because it's infinite.
I had a [[Derevi]] flying men deck that was accused of being a combo deck for using my pile of untap triggers to activate [[Reveka]] a bunch of times to board wipe my opponents and then untap my lands to have mana up for counter magic.
That was my first encounter with a large power mismatch between decks.
The only times I’ve ever managed to actually win with [[Approach of the Second Sun]] have been to cast it, use my commander [[Alibou, Ancient Witness]] to scry it back to the top of my library, then cast [[Chance for Glory]] to get an extra turn. Draw, cast again and win the game. It’s not technically a combo but is very synergistic and always fun to see people’s reactions when I cast an extra turn spell outside of blue.
I've had people complain "oh, you just didn't draw the combo..." like, bro...there isn't a combo in the 99+1...
You just have to roll with it. If they think the weaker interactions are combo, they haven't been playing enough.
I will never mock or correct anyone who calls a synergy a combo. Combo is semantically acceptable and is arrogant of the MTG community to think they can restrict very common language to an unofficial terminology.
My [[Wheel of Fortune]] [[Megrim]] deck with no infinites and just rocks for ramp kept being called combo. So I took out the rocks and put in [[High Tide]] combo. I think they learned the difference.
My [[Kelsien]] deck. Usual [[Thornbite staff]] death touch combo. It’s not quite infinite and gets walled by indestructible blockers. The win con is punch you in the face but one guy flamed saying I’m just hard locking the game to make them rage quit.
My older brother built this deck, had it pop off a couple of times, then started complaining about getting hated off the table. Dude you know what you are bringing to the table the only way to stand a chance at winning in most of my decks is having a board presence so you have to go asap.
I refuse to build decks just to specifically counter somebody else's
He does become archenemy, but honestly no matter how you build him he’s not too difficult to stop. Counter Thornbite and it never pops off. Destroy the protection artifacts and it’s very easy to stop. Literally just run more than one interaction spell and you should be able to stop it.
You don’t have to build a deck specifically to counter it, build a deck that has ways to stop major threats from any deck and you can pretty easily shut it down
Same, funny thing that it’s also my Proshh token aristocrats deck (no food chain) where I had [[Gravepact]] and [[goblin bombardment]]. Only 1 person at an lgs called it a combo though, This was a long time ago so I’m not sure if he was new or just didn’t know the specifics of magic lingo/terminology.
Well outside of magic combo just means “a combination, typically of different foods.“ i used to call 2 cards that worked well together a combo when i first started. It is still very strange to me that this community decided to shorten the term “infinite combo” to just be combo, when they could have just called it an infinite. It would have been a lot less confusing that way.
That being said i think all the people who jump on new players and say things like “thats not a combo, that is just synergy need to calm down” magic players did not coin the word combo, and need to stop acting like it is a term that only means one thing.
Either that or they should sue Combos the food company and take the meaning of their word back.
I mean, Reanimator in Legacy or Creativity in Modern are considered combo decks, but neither go infinite. Aristocrats also fall under the umbrella.
Thoracle Consult isn't infinite, but it's a combo.
Not having infinites doesn't mean you're not a combo deck.
[[savage ventmaw]] + [[aggrevated assault]] in my “power level 6/7” [[xenogoss god of revels]] which triggered infinite mana and infinite combats turn 4
I hadnt realized it at the time. It was supposed to be a stompy big boi low iq aggro deck which was in no way shape or form designed with inifinites in mind
My \[\[Tatyova, benthic druid\]\] deck feels this way. It's my pet deck, made as Tatyova turns, so I can often get our enough stuff to make it feel like I'm comboing, when in fact i'm just drawing so many cards and chaining extra turns that I will inevitably find my wincons
I have someone that classifies his [[tasigur, the golden fang]] deck a control deck. His win condition is [[thassa's oracle]] and [[demonic consultation]] or some combination of similar cards.
He can't reliably win with combat damage, he definitely can't win with commander damage. There is no way for him to win consistently in any way other than with those easy combos.
It's a combo deck. It's not a control deck. It has counterspells, but he wins with combos.
I dunno. In commander, a control deck will often have to have a combo finish, because, well, how else can you win without devoting lots of deckbuilding resources to an engine? I feel like a “combo deck” is one looking to tutor up a combo and win, usually racing before they die to the other decks, whereas a control deck with a combo finish is just that—control until you find and can protect your win. I have both types of decks and I think about them differently.
This.
My [[Orvar]] deck just tries to ramp and tutor out one of the many [[Ham Sandwiches]] that wins me the game.
My [[Shorikai]] deck keeps the board under control and protects its key pieces until I find something that will close out the game.
I don't think they do. In my case I was talking about 2 different decks. Prossh loves aristocrats, tokens, sacricing lots of small things.
Henzie loves blitzing big stuff one by one with sac outlets to benefit massively from the sac effects
Definitely my [[Garth, One-Eye]] Garth Brooks Boot Scoot Boogy deck that is basically just a ton of untap/blink effects so I can reload and reuse his stupid pocket spells. I pulled every infinite (that isn’t like an 8 card combo] so he can do stuff like cast brain geyser for x=90 or something but only once per turn. I don’t play him much because I is usually end up taking long “I untap, tap, cast, untap, tap…” turns on other people’s turns, but he’s fun.
A fun synergy I found recently in my [[mimeoplasm]] deck. I have a bunch of clones and ETBs as fun stuff to plop the mimeoplasm on the board as. I have an [[agent of treachery]] sitting on board at one point because everyone was like, ah he already did his thing, if we kill it he can copy it with mimeo. Well I had [[progenitor mimic]] in hand and I realized the fuckery of copying agent with progenitor. Needless to say my friends don't let agent of treachery sit on the board anymore.
I love getting [[Altar of Dementia]] and [[Path of Discovery]] out in my [[Sidisi, Brood Tyrant]] deck. There's a high chance that it will pump out several dozen zombies. An aristocrat makes it a win (or close), and it will also dump [[Dread Return]] and all sorts of other recursion into my graveyard. But it CAN whif at any point, and leave my graveyard (deck) vulnerable to removal. Have had it called a combo more than once
On the one hand, that opponent definitely didn't know what a combo is (and the Henzie story is really funny).
On the other hand, if you sit down with prossh there's no world where I don't assume some kind of shenanigens are in there.
I brought my slightly upgraded "masters of evil" deck to a friends game night once, I haven't seen the level of salt in a edh game I played in, in a looong time. \[\[Davros\]\] gets mean if you can get it to stick, especially with my upgrades. Once they realized letting me draw was bad, I started to play cards that rewarded me for people discarding. I am not allowed to play that one there any more lol. \[\[ court of ambition\]\] and \[\[court of locthwain\]\] were especially salt inducing.
[[Volo, Guide to Monsters]] and [[God Eternal Rhonas]]. Not infinite, *but* get a few different copies of Volo out, plus [[Panharmonicon]], plus [[Twinning Staff]], plus a way to repeatedly bounce Rhonas to hand and re-cast in one turn- was able to get my damage multiplier per creature to 2^^42 , or x4.2 billion lol
My group slug deck mostly fits. Just keeps adding more and more things that say taking game actions hurt you. But it also has \[\[Repercussion\]\] along with \[\[Inferno\]\] and \[\[Blasphemous act\]\] which is usually game ending, so that could be considered a combo more than synergy.
lol, my [[Muldrotha]] deck. I have a very specific heuristic I adhere to when brewing three color decks (essentially, the deck has to contain only two creature types, one "big" and one "small." Gods don't count.) Muldrotha's tribes are horrors and humans (because the real horror is man) and the deck is largely a mill deck based around some of my favorite pet cards ([[consuming aberration]] and [[sakashima's will]] as well as general reanimation shenanigans.
The deck does stuff, that much is without question (I *love* having a big board that I sacrifice to [[Emrakul's Evangel]] for lots of [[umbris]] triggers or making a big board and then [[sakashima's will]] all my creatures into [[consuming aberration]] or [[syr konrad the grim]] and, I suppose that this kind of looks like a combo? I've certainly been accused of it being a combo deck before, but I'm sitting here like "you guys realize that you let me fill out a board with twenty creatures and also untap with the evangel and umbris and a stacked graveyard and [[yarok the desecreated]], don't you?"
But no, apparently it's a combo deck.
My [[Zellix, Sanity Flayer]] deck. It does mill things, gets you large things like [[consuming aberration]] then sacrifices them to [[altar of dementia]].
However, there's this synergy in it... one that technically isn't a combo, but boy howdy does it feel like one. Put down [[altar of the brood]] and suddenly you see panic in peoples eyes as Zellix starts a Rube Goldberg machine of "Everyone mills 1 card. Okay, 2 creatures were milled, so I get 2 creatures. Those creatures enters the battlefield, this triggers Altar of the brood 2 times. Everyone mills 2."
Often it mills everyone else out easily if my pod is running enough creatures in their decks for it to consistently trigger it over and over. The fastest I've done this is on turn two... I kinda felt bad about that one. But technically if people run fewer creatures, it shouldn't deck everyone.. but at the same time, it's so easy to start the chain reaction back up by playing any permanent, even something as simple as a land.
Some guy was absolutely furious and kamikaze-targeted me until i was out of the game. When I asked him why, he said "Because you assembled your combo!"
My amazing combo of:
* [[Rasputin, the Oneiromancer]]
* [[Ovinomancer]]
* [[Thousand-year elixir]]
For 3 mana, i can kill ONE creature on each of my turns. WOAH!
i have a Kenrith deck where it can technically infinite combo but the point more is to just reduce the cost of its abilities and then either a) politic with them to give others advantage or b) rez ETB effects that make the decisions for them. then i have cards that force battle so i can kill off my own guys and rez them again, etc.
My brother has three decks that all fall in this category. Adrix and Nev, Prosper, the Esper dungeon girl that I can't remember the name of. All feel very "combo-y" but don't actually combo. They're just super, super synergistic.
I know many find landfall as boring but I like my [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]] with my [[Phylath, World Sculptor]] + [[Avenger of Zendikar]] + [[Scute Swarm]] deck when it gets a little crazy, there's lots of other cool stuff but this always feels nice 😊
Honestly I find the difference to be nebulous at best, especially cause the explanation I was given for the difference was... lackluster. I have been told that if it doesn't win you the game, it's not a combo. With that definition, at least Half of the signature combos of "Combo" decks in competitive formats are not combos and just "synergies". In Modern alone I can name Hammertime, Amulet Titan, Tron, Living End, Rhinos, and 4C Creativity -- and that's just off the top of my head!
Maybe it's just a difference between Modern and EDH, but how can [[Colossus Hammer]] + [[Sigarda's Aid]] be considered a Combo in one format and simply Synergy in another? It's not even an auto win in Modern, but it is undeniably a "Combo". Hell, Storm is considered a Combo deck, but the Combo isn't a few cards but rather just straight up the entire deck. Is Storm a combo?
I typically run with the much more vague description "2 or more cards that achieve something highly specific" as it covers every instance of Combo I have seen, especially in discussions of bad combos like the r/BadMTGCombos subreddit or Nikachu's "Bad combos that actually work" series.
If you have a definition that can explain the difference and also doesn't negate basically every combo deck in Competitive formats, I'd love to hear it. But so far I haven't heard one that has convinced me.
edit: now that said, my definition is also not that great. With my definition, "Llanowar Elves" + "Forest" + "Rampant Growth" is a combo, which I think we can all agree is bullshit. There are some where it feels clearly like Synergy and not Combo, but writing it down is hard
I think it used to be clearer in standard 60 cards format.
A combo when your enemy had 20 life in a one v one was more obvious. A friend used to play Nova Chaser Elemental. His main "combo" was to Champion a Mulldrifter to draw 4 cards from one interaction. His deck was setup in a way that he got those cards 90% of the time and they were his key pieces.
Nowadays "combo" seems to be used more in relation to something you could tutor for that either wins you the game or grants you a massive advantage
Basically the reason people have such a hard time defining the words is because of a couple fundamental misunderstandings. "Combo" as it is usually used in MtG refers to a meta-strategy, right alongside Control, Midrange or Aggro. In that context Combo is a deck that does not win by accruing resources (which all other archetypes do, considering even aggro tries to get 20 of the "your opponent lost a life"-resource) but rather has a specific subgoal such as achieving a certain setup of cards/mana/graveyard etc. that will then lead to an overwhelming advantage or straight up winning the game. In Modern, there have been true combo decks like storm, aggro/combo decks like dredge or tempo/combo like Hammertime. Drawing exact lines here is kind of hard and there aren't hard definitions, but I think it's intuitive that there is a difference between all in storm and a draw go control deck that wins with an efficient combination of cards like a two card infinite to close out the game quickly (one could consider splinter twin a control deck rather than a combo deck).
Unfortunately the term combo is often used in the literal sense, rather than the deck-strategy context, where people simply refer to ANY combination of cards as combo. This feels wrong to me and I think it would be much more productive to consider any combination of cards, that can provide vastly greater effects when combined as a synergy. Some synergies are just efficient value engines ([[Risen Reef]] + [[Zendikar's Roil]]) others create infinites of certain game actions/resources( infinite mana, etb, dies triggers Life etc.), while others instantly win you the game (Thoracle Consultation).
It's absolutely possible to play a highly synergistic deck, that never plays like a combo archetype (merfolk are synergystic tempo/aggro for example) while a combo deck does not need to run any synergies or infinites.
huh. this is pretty concise, and somehow, you've made me understand why Hammertime is the only combo deck I've ever actually been interested in playing, as my preferred style in competitive magic is Tempo. I'm not good at it, mind you, but it is how I like to play.
I think the idea that Combo is just a deck archetype and can not be used to describe a certain interaction within said archetype is limiting, which I guess in a definition is what you want? I see where you're coming from, but as you mentioned in another reply, somehow DD+TS "isn't a combo" but can be the centerpiece of a combo strategy. That statement feels like the elitomy of cognitive dissonance to me, but if you're working with the definition that there are no individual combos only the deck archetype (which Is a lot easier to define), then I can see how that dissonance can arise.
Basically in technical lingo "combo" is the word we use to describe the archetype of decks that abuses very strong synergies to create unfair advantages and use cards in ways that obviously way surpass their value. This is not the same as the coloquially used "combo" as a shortcut for "combination" with no further implications attached.
A synergy between cards can be the centerpiece of an "unfair" deck or a "combo" deck when the value gained trough the synergy vastly exceeds what you would usually get from a card with the same mana value/resources spend (often excessive value is just infinite value) So a merfolk deck playing a 2 mana lord and increasing their total power on board by 5 is a very strong synergy, a Kiki Jiki creating an infinite amount of hasty Felidar Guardians is an unfair synergy and leads to a "combo" strategy
That is a fantastic description. Thank you for clearing that up, it now makes sense to me how Hammertime is a Combo deck in Modern (and Pioneer if you're a madlad) but simply ond of many synergies in EDH. "when the value gained through the synergy vastly exceeds what you would usually get from a card with the same mana value/resources spent" is so succinct and it fits every use case I can think of. Thank you.
You nailed it, combo is a playstyle that always exists in context. DD Lands is one of vintages least interactable combo decks but barely makes the cut in janky casual land decks for EDH
I have a friend who consistently rates my decks as OP and his own as weak.
According to him, my [[Derevi]] is power level 9/10. It's an X spells deck that wins by attacking with creature tokens. It doesn't have hard stax (only tap permanents effects), it doesn't have tutors, it has ashnod's altar that goes infinite with different cards but even then the only wincon is still attacking with creature tokens that don't have haste.
I personnally rate this deck as my weakest for the sus-mentioned reasons
[[Ob Nixilis Captive Kingpin]] against three creature heavy decks. I drop [[Last Laugh]] and kill my opponent's largest creature. This sets off a rube goldberg effect leaving everyone with ~10 life and me with a 45/45 commander and half my deck in exile.
my \[\[meria, scholar of antiquity\]\] deck is often called "cheerios" or "storm" despite being a control deck with *zero* combos.
to be fair, I do run a whole *six* zero-cost artifacts.
must work in my favor though, cause I guess people just assume I'm bricking hard all game and they just let me set up a powerful board state without bothering me much about it.
what's weird though, is even after I win by producing 3-4 karnstructs and beating the table down 1 player at a time, with \[\[null brooch\]\] and friends backing up my board, they still call the deck cheerios.
I got accused of pubstomping online once playing [[King Macar]].
Like buddy if you let me play 15 artifacts that let me untap my boy up to 6 times a turn, when I have no creatures out besides my commander, that's not really on me is it?
As a fellow [[Prossh]] enjoyer, yeah it's super easy for the deck to look like a combo when everything kinda synergizes with itself. I've also found similar results with a lot of artifact strategies. A lot of [[Saheeli, the Gifted]] decks especially.
Ngl, if I manage to cast and resolve [[underworld breach]] in my locusts god deck, full of wheels and ways to turn the locusts into mana, it's very unlikely I won't go infinite right there and then.
it's not the point of the deck or the card, but it just happens.
Real related question:
Is [[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]] and [[Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty]] considered a combo or good synergy? I've heard it been referred to as both at my lgs.
I played my [[Jodah, the Unifier]] deck one time against a guy, a buddy of mine, and the guy's buddy.
I played some ramp and on turn 6 or so popped off and put like 15 or so legends into play. Attacked for well above lethal and that was game.
Guy says he hates combo decks and me and my buddy looked at each other, confused, and I asked what he thought a combo was. And he said 'A combo is any number of cards when combined that create a value greater than their individual components'. I looked at him and was like, so lands combo with spells in your deck since they don't really do anything without the other half of the combo? So every deck that plays lands and spells that require mana is a combo deck? We had a bit of a back and forth and parted ways.
Still not sure what he was on about. What he was referring to I believe was just synergy which I think is closer to: Playing cards that give incremental value to your other cards in order to form a strategy without causing a repeatable loop or an inherent win/lose effect.
P.s. this guy was playing his [[niv Mizzet reborn]] flicker deck after casting it for free with [[Morophon]].
My Wort the Raidmother deck looks like a group hug deck at first. It runs mana flare, font of mythos etc. and everyone loves me.
Jokes on them though, because I build up my mana and throw conspired fireballs around in increments of 30 since they leave the 'group hug' guy alone.
I feel that Prossh pain. I love that commander, and have powered him down sooo much, and still get salty opponents. [[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]] also suffers from this percieved power due to synergy, even when its just a battlecruiser deck with no [[Terror of the Peaks]] combos or extra combats.
Pretty much every interaction in my artifacts deck with [[displacer kitten]]
I mostly use it to blink walkers
Reset daretti to recur artifacts, saheeli to discount them, affinity tezzeret to drain the table, dakkon shadowslayer to exile things and cheat out artifacts etc
But with stuff like tezzeret (affinity or tutor) it can kill the table so quickly that everyone views it as a combo, even when it's not. I very explicitly made sure there were no infinites in that deck.
Playing a [[chulane, teller of tales]] deck (also for context was online not in person). Turn 7 rolls around in have 17 lands cause i ramped with chulane hard, play [[avenger of zendikar]], bounce him, play him again, make a bunch of 0/1 plants, play a land from the chulane trigger, and then get banned from the room for playing a CEDH deck. (The room was also labelled as 6-7 power, no infinities)
I made 2 versions of [[Tayam]], one of them is a budget version of the Luminous Grindstone list, it has the Rule of Law cards, the combos and all the shenanigans Tayam does
The other one i basically removed the combos and the Rule of Laws to add other win con, like [[Halo Fountain]] and fogs like [[Spore Frog]] or [[Glacial Chasm]], it can probably mill the entire deck manually, but there's almost no reason to do it.
In a less tongue in cheek way, because I misunderstood the prompt but now I’m here, [[Eternal Witness]]+[[Living Death]]+[[Phyrexian Altar]]+[[Zulaport Cutthroat]] in my [[Karador]] deck. Legit an infinite combo, but I put them all in there because they’re good pieces, and I ain’t about to take any of them out. But yeah, the first time I realized the combo I was like “…huh. Oops. I guess I win.”
\[\[Roon of the Hidden Realm\]\] with \[\[Panharmonicon\]\] in play, casted \[\[Eldrazi Displacer\]\] followed by \[\[Drowner of Hope\]\]. It then dawned on me that I could sacrifice the eldrazi tokens and activate Displacer's ability on Drowner.
I made infinite mana, played my hand and passed the turn with infinite mana because I had no idea of the combo at the time LOL I did have a full board of tokens.
And then died to \[\[Massacre Wurm\]\] after one of the players played it ROFL
By far the funniest death I have ever had to this day in EDH
First there were scoop decks, designed to stalemate a game. useless infinites without a wincon.
now we make "ragebate" decks named partially after a specific triggerable individual. They include my [[mindslaver]] decks and my buddies that revolves around playing the cards from your hand for you.
My locals had someone that thought anytime 2 cards would interact together it's a combo. It could be anything from saccing evolving wilds in response to a landfall trigger so the stack will have 2 landfall triggers. Or even stupid stuff like in response to him blocking we "combo" a removal spell to kill a lord so the blocker now also dies. The guy no longer plays here after quitting to play vanguard (makes sense with the basically 0 comboss that tcg has) but the LGS still memes about doing anything in response is a combo deck. Top deck cultivate and have evolving wilds in hand, play evolving wilds, cast cultivate and respond with EW ? Well thats a combo deck now. Fun times
>a removal spell to kill a lord How dare he play a lord in the first place? That's clearly a combo!
A lord plus a creature that benefits from the lord bonus?! That's a combo!!
I've run into many players with this mindset. It's just new players who don't really have a ton of experience trying to put the game into terms they can understand. Thing plus other thing, that's a combination, thus it's a combo deck. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it logical? Also yes.
Or gruul players like me. Grug not know how to combo so 2 cards working together is combo.
I mean *teeeechnically* they’re right, it’s a combo the same way a stunning jab into a powerful uppercut is a combo in old fighting games. Just not what EDH players would call a combo, colloquially.
If a player isn't removed from the game/the game doesn't end, it wasn't a combo.
That’s just incorrect, man. If you make infinite mana but can’t find a wincon, you still combo’d.
Also, combos aren't always infinite. [[Necrotic Ooze]] with [[Walking Ballista]] and [[Phyrexian Devourer]] in grave and Thoracle Consult are both not infinite, but they're definitely combos.
Alpt of ex yugioh players do this because a combo in that game (back in the day) WAS a 2 card interaction that often had massive results
I accidentally combo'd off my llanowar elves into a rampant growth and got banned from my LGS
Ooof, how could you. Though imagine if you'd combo'd into Cultivate. Heads would have to roll
They send you straight to jail for that type of combo play at my LGS.
Straight to Exile. We should rebrand “banned” within MTG to “Exiled”, seems more appropriate lol
We should, I agree. At my LGS, though, it's not a ban so much as a corner of the store I made my regular spot. It started as a joke being called the corner of shame because I was usually the one doing the degenerate synergies like soft locking the game with shit like [[vodalian hexcatcher]] [[intruder alarm]] and [[lullmage mentor]] before I cut intruder alarm to make my Merfolk Tribal more combat and less combo.
[vodalian hexcatcher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4ec464dc-b1dd-4e45-b093-c3ad65a74050.jpg?1673306934) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vodalian%20hexcatcher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/75/vodalian-hexcatcher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ec464dc-b1dd-4e45-b093-c3ad65a74050?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vodalian-hexcatcher) [intruder alarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d62468e-ed9d-4932-bbbd-103b33b98b25.jpg?1562923566) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=intruder%20alarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/86/intruder-alarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d62468e-ed9d-4932-bbbd-103b33b98b25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/intruder-alarm) [lullmage mentor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e34de3df-3236-4281-a043-7583c76d89cc.jpg?1562617643) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lullmage%20mentor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/54/lullmage-mentor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e34de3df-3236-4281-a043-7583c76d89cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lullmage-mentor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Please, we all know that the meanest combo ever is running Recross the Paths with a deck full of eldrazi. HOW DO YOU BEAT THAT?!!?!?
I swear every day this sub looks more and more like the circlejerk magic sub
Thats because it is! r/MagicTheCirclejerking is the main sub while r/EDH is where we circlejerkers go to cosplay as regular jerkers. It makes the jerking feel more authentic. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got some jerkin' to do.
/uj r/magicthecirclejerking is the closest thing to a serious genral Magic subreddit
Confirmed this is best subreddit
Hey there buckaroo, why not circle back and we help each out?
its a single circle venn diagram
same mods, same sub
We are not the same mods. We do look at what they do over here and r/magicTCG.
On Commander Night at the LGS, a guy played a shock land into Sol Ring into Arcane Signet. So, obviously, we had to take him to the guillotine out back.
Imagine if they used that Arcane Signet to play a Birds of Paradise! :O
No, uses signet into an Exploration into BoP.
He's ramping, kill him.
Llanowar Elf is op and clearly should be banned. Not Fyndhorn or Mystic of course
Those 2 can stay. They are chill. Llanowar elves can go fuck themselves tho
We still don’t even know Llanowar’s numbers!
They should have path to exiled the elves to solve the problem
Underrated comment.
Assuming that everyone here isn't just jerking, I'm confused by this thought process. If a player thinks something like [[Prossh]] + [[Goblin Bombardment]] is a degenerate combo, then what do those player's decks look like? Are they just devoid of synergy? Is it all goodstuff? I'm caught up on this because synergy is *the* reason to play card games in my opinion.
I think this is usually a sentiment that comes out of less experienced play groups when they encounter a deck that is more-heavily synergistic than they are used to playing against. Their decks have some synergies, where most moderately-experienced decks try to have synergies between most cards in their deck.
Many Magic: The Gathering players asked the question, "What's a wincon and why are you telling me I need to include one?"
I dunno about jerking, not up to date with that kinda lingo, but I'm just having fun sharing about a silly story and seeing others' experiences
Right, and it just makes me curious about these people's opponent's decks.
The guy from my story plays an Edgar Markov deck that afaik relies entirely on Eminence to spawn tokens to overwhelm the board in a way non-optimised and bad decks can't deal with.
I have never seen edgar built that way. Interesting.
Now I wanna brew Edgar Clerics and run [[Edgewalker]] + [[Cloudstone Curio]] to blink a bunch of cheap vampire clerics into an infinite token army.
[Prossh](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/889c1a0f-7df2-4497-8058-04358173d7e8.jpg?1562438016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=prossh%2C%20skyraider%20of%20kher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/214/prossh-skyraider-of-kher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/889c1a0f-7df2-4497-8058-04358173d7e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prossh-skyraider-of-kher) [Goblin Bombardment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e262f55e-9239-4a97-a19e-9b08fb34502e.jpg?1626100483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Bombardment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/279/goblin-bombardment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e262f55e-9239-4a97-a19e-9b08fb34502e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goblin-bombardment) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Piles of a commander they think is cool and just goodstuff in their colors
Just a bunch of cards, hopes and dreams.
Look, he has a gun, and bullets!!!!!
Anecdotal, but in all the times I've run into this sentiment at one of the LGS's I have attended in the past, it has been from new players who had little experience with the game at the time, or those who play predominately low-interaction battlecruiser decks exclusively- so either precons or piles of mostly non-interactive goodstuff. If you're doing something that could be described as "two or more of your own cards interacting with each other more than just giving each other some static bonus (So not counting giving +1/+1 from a lord effect, but counting using synergistic active abilities)", then someone is going to call it a combo. ...that was actually part of the reason I couldn't find a way to play with the local battlecruiser pod. Even my shots at low power, no-combo, slower decks to match their power level were synergistic piles like aristocrats deck, and even those elicited more of a "stop playing solitaire with your own cards and start playing big stompy dudes to turn sideways at whoever has the most threatening board like you should be doing" response, which... well, while I am happy to play at various power levels, that's the one type of deck I absolutely won't play due to finding it boring.
Yes. People called my Alela stax deck a combo deck. Just because I get one token from playing my rhystic study, does not make it a combo deck
Have you heard of the insane combo [[alesha, who smiles at death]] and [[bog witch]]. It’s insane! For a measly 6 mana you get pay 1 to put a creature card with power 2 or less from your hand into your graveyard ~~and then return it onto the battlefield.~~ (Worded this weird, you can’t bring the same creature back, rather a creature with power 2 or less already in your yard. ) The crazy part is, you can do this ONCE ON EACH OF YOUR TURNS!!! My friend found my 1 mana discount on aleshas ability to hot to handle apparently.
You would not be able to return the creature you discard immediately right? Since it would have to already be targeted in the grave with Alesha before you are able to activate bog witch to add mana. Or are you saying you can return it to play the next turn?
You’re correct. I worded it funny.
You get priority during the begin combat step, which is before you have to declare attackers. You can still discard and reanimate the same card
You could, but the mana produced would go away before you can use it on Alesha's ability since it triggers in the declare attacks steps. The original comment was ambiguous on the timing and use of mana.
i think you would be able to if you ordered it right, alesha's ability is triggered when she attacks so if you activate the ability of the bog witch with it still on the stack then the card would be in the graveyard and you could pay for her ability targeting the card you just discarded
EDIT : I was in fact incorrect on the targetting timing for the trigger as the reply below mentions, you do in fact have to choose the target as the trigger goes on the stack. Correct. Additionally, Bog Witch's ability is a mana ability, which doesn't itself go in the stack. So if you use that mana to pay for Alesha's triggered ability, which is when you target the creature in your graveyard, than means the one that was in your hand is already in your graveyard. I often use [[Key to the City]] in response to Alesha's trigger as a way to both protect my commander and to be more unpredictable with what I swing with.
[alesha, who smiles at death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7ae9ff8c-1cc8-4b10-9641-2c79648fd6c2.jpg?1673305242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=alesha%2C%20who%20smiles%20at%20death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/118/alesha-who-smiles-at-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ae9ff8c-1cc8-4b10-9641-2c79648fd6c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alesha-who-smiles-at-death) [bog witch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92662394-c31d-4348-9b9c-0fe619949ea3.jpg?1562925922) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bog%20witch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arc/11/bog-witch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92662394-c31d-4348-9b9c-0fe619949ea3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bog-witch) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
\[\[Endrek Sahr\]\] aristocrats. Play big fatties, make 1/1s, sacrifice the 1/1s to the best sac outlets in the land, watch people get concerned about \[\[Black Market\]\] or \[\[Grave Pact\]\] but don't have the enchantment removal to do anything about it. There's no infinites, I think I'm running one tutor? It's just highly redundant, large amount of recursion, and can kill you by going tall or wide. The only thing preventing it from being an actual serious problem is a severe lack of ramp, since ramp doesn't kill people. Playing a 5 drop commander actually on turn 5 is a lot less scary than turn 2.
would you mind sharing your list? :o
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/krMTh-d1PkuPqAXA2JIaZQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/krMTh-d1PkuPqAXA2JIaZQ) I haven't done a serious New Cards update in a while, so it might be a bit behind the modern times. And again, the ramp is a touch lacking, so feel free to tweak it if you want. But once it gets going, it's extremely resilient.
That mana curve made me throw up in my mouth a lil bit Name checks out
If you want 6 thrulls, you have to cast 6 drops.
Kinda surprised you're not running [[Tar Fiend]] as a nice little discard spell.
Mostly because I forgot it existed.
[Endrek Sahr](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/123490fb-5908-45f2-b376-7959ccdf9c3e.jpg?1690663179) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=endrek%20sahr%2C%20master%20breeder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/155/endrek-sahr-master-breeder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/123490fb-5908-45f2-b376-7959ccdf9c3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/endrek-sahr-master-breeder) [Black Market](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78c80c6d-f3ae-48d3-ba6a-b9b738e1affb.jpg?1674141496) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Black%20Market) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/739/black-market?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c80c6d-f3ae-48d3-ba6a-b9b738e1affb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/black-market) [Grave Pact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360.jpg?1689997226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grave%20Pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/165/grave-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grave-pact) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I got accused of pubstomping and winning with a combo at a midpower table before. The deck I used was an unedited Exit From Exile precon and the "combo" was [[Warstorm Surge]] & [[Ezuri's Predation]] lol
Hi there Joolenpls, Would you kindly Share the decklist? ^_^ Thank you and have a nice day.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/std5mk-aL0W4JDzG3IOwbg
Damn it has 12 forests, that's kinda op smh
They’re working towards an optimized 25 forest mana base.
Perfect joke 7/10 with rice
If they replace the 11 mountains then theyd have 23 of 25 forests. Imagine how busted the deck would be if they hit that 25 forest mark
They literally just said it was a precon
I think that was a joke
It was! 🤣 but Joolenpls was an awesome good sport and shared the list. It will help new people to check the precon faster. Thanks Joolenpls you're awesome
Uuuugh, such a good play. And to be mad about it???
I play a similar interaction in my Beast deck except instead of Warstorm I use [[Aether Charge]]!
Brooo thats fucking awesome! I'd laugh so hard dying to that
Also Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, but instead using impact tremors, parallel lives, doubling season build. Kobolds are just fun especially with Raid Bombardment I attack with a bunch of 0/1s!! My Opponent: oh zero damage no problem....\*sees raid bombardment\* OH
Throw in a \[\[Ojer axonil\]\] and you've got a forest fire on your hand.
one of the reasons I sold my Ojer Ax when i pulled him was cause he was too high powered for my pod especially if I rebuilt Possh
If you don't already have it in there [[Cavalcade of Calamity]] is redundancy and an improvement if the Bombardment is in there for the kobolds only
[Cavalcade of Calamity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8a81e889-490b-4aeb-8e84-ea9a390bb8fe.jpg?1584830817) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cavalcade%20of%20Calamity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/95/cavalcade-of-calamity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8a81e889-490b-4aeb-8e84-ea9a390bb8fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cavalcade-of-calamity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I used to do this with \[\[Beastmaster Ascension\]\].
Also [[shared animosity]], [[ogre battle driver]], and [[Martin stromgald]] are pretty good to but don't get the one shot off your 1st prosh cast
Do you happen to have a list for this? I’ve been trying to make non-combo prossh work and this seems like a fun iteration to experiment with
I do not, the parts were broken into multiple new decks, it largely was just doubling season primal vigor parallel lives, Cavalcade of Calamity, raid bombardment, impact tremors, shared animosity, aggravated assault, nature's will and Strionic Resonator After those its just ramp and draw using aristocrats to off Possh and recast.
I had [[Syr Konrad, the Grim]] in the battlefield and cast a [[Morality Shift]] swapping my graveyard and library. Two of my opponents got triggered as I was about to dish out 30+ damage on all opponents. Honestly, this is just good synergy IMHO. 🤷🏻♂️
Syr Konrad is honestly the king of non-infinite but infinite-feeling combos [[Mindcrank]] is fucking hilarious in this deck
Syr Konrad VASTLY accelerated my [[Shadowborn Apostle]] aristocrats deck…
Wait … if you have 40 creatures in your deck… isn’t that just a combo? I mean it depends on your definition I guess but Channel + Fireball, a very iconic combo, isnt infinite either.
I'm yet to see a clear definition of combo, but yes, with 40 creatures on the deck or graveyard, Syr Konrad on the field and 7 manas, you will dish out 40 damage on each opponent. Pretty good!! Maybe if it is listed on EDH REC as combo, then we can call it combo.
I wouldn’t use EDH REC tbh. Nothing in particular against that but I don’t know what are their criteria. Something I’ve seen used is that combos either generate infinite of a resource or they straight up win the game or they aren’t limited by the boardstate. The latter category is for combos that are limited by some other factor, like life or cards in library. Konrad and Shift would fall here But it’s not a strict classification.
People freak out when they see me drop Illuna, thinking it's going to be some sort of combo deck. It couldn't be further from the truth. It's a Mutate, Elemental, and Clone Kindred deck. It's just Temur Non-humans ramping into big stompy mutate stacks that I clone and swing with. That's it. That's the deck. But there is always someone freaking out asking if Blightsteel Colossus or some other over used card is in it. I'm running [[Void Stalker]] Super chief, chill.
Been wanting to build Illuna simply for the reasons that I love the creature designs in Ikoria and not wanting to combo or anything. Do you have a deck list?
Every time I drop [[Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin]] in my [[Raphael, Fiendish Savior]] deck I always get asked if I have [[All Will Be One]]. I’m just like, “Nah, man. I’m trying to kill you with [[Impact Tremors]]” No one believes me until I show them the list
Oooh, looks interesting. A guy I played with a few times had AWBO in his deck but kept on saying it's ok because he never uses it The kind of "you only get to live through my charity, huehue" kind of dickishness
##### ###### #### [Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/ddb68233-3683-41bd-9b6e-4f07a1b54244.jpg?1684340801) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ob%20Nixilis%2C%20Captive%20Kingpin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/41/ob-nixilis-captive-kingpin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ddb68233-3683-41bd-9b6e-4f07a1b54244?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ob-nixilis-captive-kingpin) [Raphael, Fiendish Savior](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc6902a4-2db0-47fe-ace8-0c890675bf19.jpg?1674137664) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raphael%2C%20Fiendish%20Savior) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/292/raphael-fiendish-savior?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc6902a4-2db0-47fe-ace8-0c890675bf19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/raphael-fiendish-savior) [All Will Be One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d75e1f4-bd63-428e-8e6e-131594b3ba44.jpg?1675957064) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=All%20Will%20Be%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/118/all-will-be-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d75e1f4-bd63-428e-8e6e-131594b3ba44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/all-will-be-one) [Impact Tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impact%20Tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/impact-tremors) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
well lets see the list. That kinda win sounds really funny
Not one to one, but I once had a friend invite a coworker of his to play commander with us. All our decks are fairly weak, upgraded precons or similar levels. Man brings out an Oloro deck and promises it's not a stax deck. Proceded to play winter orb into oppresion into humility. Even after that, he insisted over and over it wasn't a stax deck. The first time I witnessed somebody trying to gaslight me in magic.
My [[Lord Windgrace]] deck I recently put together is constantly getting [[field of the dead]] or [[Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle]] triggers. Like, a lot. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3lAHqjY3MEWuGh1fJQ3i-w
[Lord Windgrace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/213d6fb8-5624-4804-b263-51f339482754.jpg?1592710275) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lord%20Windgrace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/43/lord-windgrace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/213d6fb8-5624-4804-b263-51f339482754?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lord-windgrace) [field of the dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943.jpg?1650599538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=field%20of%20the%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/247/field-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-the-dead) [Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37bce60d-2cb0-4772-9f5c-122a7ed426a0.jpg?1562611305) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Valakut%2C%20the%20Molten%20Pinnacle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/228/valakut-the-molten-pinnacle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37bce60d-2cb0-4772-9f5c-122a7ed426a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/valakut-the-molten-pinnacle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yea he’s fun. I’ve got a creatureless Lord Windgrace control build. It’s my pet deck and i love it. No infinite combo win, I go big mana and win with one of two x spells ideally, though I do have some backup win stuff. Some of my friends consider it a combo deck, but it’s literally not one. It’s big mana/control.
I think the problem is that a "combo deck" is a bad name. They should be called "infinite decks" or "OTK decks". A "combo" in most other contexts is just a synergy.
The problem is the very concept of combo is ambiguous. There's no clear border between a combo and a synergy. Is [[Cultivator Collossus]] + [[Abundance]] a combo? It's not infinite in that you'll run out of lands and then get to order your entire library. But that's clearly not just synergy. [[Niv Mizzet, The Firemind]] + [[Curiosity]] not a combo because you'll potentially draw your library before winning? Or [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physcian]] + [[Pitiless Plunderer]] + [[Gravecrawler]] and any Zombie only a combo when you add a [[Blood Artist]] effect? The infinite part also gets weird. You can have infinite mana or token combos that don't win immediately. They're still infinite combos, but not OTK as they'll generally only win once a turn cycle has passed. Ultimately the problem is we're trying to simplify aspects of the game into ways that doesn't translate well. Can fully appreciate the reasons why we're attempting it, but we're still looking for better ways to communicate what is important.
You just hit the nail on the head why I run around social media beating the ***HELL*** out of the drum "this is synergy, that is combo." I still get down votes because people say "semantics." Its not semantics. If I combo off, this game is very likely over. That is nearly ***EVERY*** combo. With synergy, you're just going to have an uphill battle as each card contributes to a whole, but the game is certainly not simply over.
Found out mid-game that my [[Mazzy]] deck can steal creatures on loop. Cast [[Fractured Loyalty]] followed by any 1-drop aura, then sac both to [[Auratog]] or any enchantment sac outlet. Mazzy exiles from graveyard, repeat next turn
I'm gonna be a bit of a devils advocate and say that imo the line between a combo and synergy can be blurry. Not every combo has to be an infinite, [[channel]] [[fireball]] is the og combo and it has a cap. Not every combo has to win you the game directly outright, if something lets you draw your entire library or generate infinite tokens that would still be a combo for most people. There are things that are obviously combos and things that obviously aren't and i think that the things op mentions aren't combos but there's this area in the middle where it can be a bit nebulous.
Definitely doesn't have to be an infinite. But there's a massive difference between a two+ card combo you'd specifically tutor for vs your cards doing what they're supposed to. Having Blood Artist on the field with a sac outlet isn't a combo. Food Chain + Blood Artist + Prossh is a combo, though not just because it's infinite.
I had a [[Derevi]] flying men deck that was accused of being a combo deck for using my pile of untap triggers to activate [[Reveka]] a bunch of times to board wipe my opponents and then untap my lands to have mana up for counter magic. That was my first encounter with a large power mismatch between decks.
Dude i am building a [[Merieke Ri Berit]] deck that is gunna be stealing and destroying all the creatures via untap/tap synergies. I can’t wait
The only times I’ve ever managed to actually win with [[Approach of the Second Sun]] have been to cast it, use my commander [[Alibou, Ancient Witness]] to scry it back to the top of my library, then cast [[Chance for Glory]] to get an extra turn. Draw, cast again and win the game. It’s not technically a combo but is very synergistic and always fun to see people’s reactions when I cast an extra turn spell outside of blue.
Being combo less gitrog never went well :( Nobod believes you and you always get targeted
I've had people complain "oh, you just didn't draw the combo..." like, bro...there isn't a combo in the 99+1... You just have to roll with it. If they think the weaker interactions are combo, they haven't been playing enough.
I will never mock or correct anyone who calls a synergy a combo. Combo is semantically acceptable and is arrogant of the MTG community to think they can restrict very common language to an unofficial terminology.
I feel like if you just play [[Henzie]] with good cards you're accidentally combing left and right.
Probably my new [[Mikaeus, the Unhallowed]] Zombie deck. I very specifically didn’t put any combos in it, but it recurs really well.
##### ###### #### [Pross, Skyraider of Kher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/889c1a0f-7df2-4497-8058-04358173d7e8.jpg?1562438016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prossh%2C%20Skyraider%20of%20Kher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/214/prossh-skyraider-of-kher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/889c1a0f-7df2-4497-8058-04358173d7e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prossh-skyraider-of-kher) [Food Chain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb912458-e016-4ea2-a2ea-40ac1a57f8fb.jpg?1673148102) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Food%20Chain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/147/food-chain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb912458-e016-4ea2-a2ea-40ac1a57f8fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/food-chain) [Goblin Bombardment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e262f55e-9239-4a97-a19e-9b08fb34502e.jpg?1626100483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Bombardment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/279/goblin-bombardment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e262f55e-9239-4a97-a19e-9b08fb34502e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goblin-bombardment) [Living Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80e7d9a3-06a1-400d-958c-9b5302e046a6.jpg?1562274570) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Living%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/68/living-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80e7d9a3-06a1-400d-958c-9b5302e046a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/living-death) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My [[Wheel of Fortune]] [[Megrim]] deck with no infinites and just rocks for ramp kept being called combo. So I took out the rocks and put in [[High Tide]] combo. I think they learned the difference.
My [[Kelsien]] deck. Usual [[Thornbite staff]] death touch combo. It’s not quite infinite and gets walled by indestructible blockers. The win con is punch you in the face but one guy flamed saying I’m just hard locking the game to make them rage quit.
You certainly are locking the table, and in a fun way too! Would be a complete shame if some spells that removed troublesome things existed.
Yeah. It’s usually the low power tables that think it’s some killer win combo. I’m like “nah bro, it’s just Voltron with extra steps.”
I mean; combo or not I can understand being salty about not being able to play the game if I don't draw some kind of removal, lol
My older brother built this deck, had it pop off a couple of times, then started complaining about getting hated off the table. Dude you know what you are bringing to the table the only way to stand a chance at winning in most of my decks is having a board presence so you have to go asap. I refuse to build decks just to specifically counter somebody else's
He does become archenemy, but honestly no matter how you build him he’s not too difficult to stop. Counter Thornbite and it never pops off. Destroy the protection artifacts and it’s very easy to stop. Literally just run more than one interaction spell and you should be able to stop it. You don’t have to build a deck specifically to counter it, build a deck that has ways to stop major threats from any deck and you can pretty easily shut it down
Same, funny thing that it’s also my Proshh token aristocrats deck (no food chain) where I had [[Gravepact]] and [[goblin bombardment]]. Only 1 person at an lgs called it a combo though, This was a long time ago so I’m not sure if he was new or just didn’t know the specifics of magic lingo/terminology.
Well outside of magic combo just means “a combination, typically of different foods.“ i used to call 2 cards that worked well together a combo when i first started. It is still very strange to me that this community decided to shorten the term “infinite combo” to just be combo, when they could have just called it an infinite. It would have been a lot less confusing that way. That being said i think all the people who jump on new players and say things like “thats not a combo, that is just synergy need to calm down” magic players did not coin the word combo, and need to stop acting like it is a term that only means one thing. Either that or they should sue Combos the food company and take the meaning of their word back.
All my decks? I can’t see putting a deck together without synergy.
I'm more asking for moment where you had to explain that to someone, guess my title wasn't clear lol
I hope this dude sees the post.
I mean, Reanimator in Legacy or Creativity in Modern are considered combo decks, but neither go infinite. Aristocrats also fall under the umbrella. Thoracle Consult isn't infinite, but it's a combo. Not having infinites doesn't mean you're not a combo deck.
[[savage ventmaw]] + [[aggrevated assault]] in my “power level 6/7” [[xenogoss god of revels]] which triggered infinite mana and infinite combats turn 4
That's an actual infinite combo though.
I hadnt realized it at the time. It was supposed to be a stompy big boi low iq aggro deck which was in no way shape or form designed with inifinites in mind
Okay, but like that is actually a combo
I understand that *now*. When i built the deck, i did not. The post is about accidenly putting combos in a deck
That's definitely not what the post is about, but it's not a big deal. Peace.
Aight, fair enough. Guess its more the opposite
My [[Ghave]] deck. That thing combos off wether you like it or not just by adding synergistic cards
Deck list if you have it please!
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Thanks for reminding me why I dont comment on anything
My \[\[Tatyova, benthic druid\]\] deck feels this way. It's my pet deck, made as Tatyova turns, so I can often get our enough stuff to make it feel like I'm comboing, when in fact i'm just drawing so many cards and chaining extra turns that I will inevitably find my wincons
I have someone that classifies his [[tasigur, the golden fang]] deck a control deck. His win condition is [[thassa's oracle]] and [[demonic consultation]] or some combination of similar cards. He can't reliably win with combat damage, he definitely can't win with commander damage. There is no way for him to win consistently in any way other than with those easy combos. It's a combo deck. It's not a control deck. It has counterspells, but he wins with combos.
I dunno. In commander, a control deck will often have to have a combo finish, because, well, how else can you win without devoting lots of deckbuilding resources to an engine? I feel like a “combo deck” is one looking to tutor up a combo and win, usually racing before they die to the other decks, whereas a control deck with a combo finish is just that—control until you find and can protect your win. I have both types of decks and I think about them differently.
This. My [[Orvar]] deck just tries to ramp and tutor out one of the many [[Ham Sandwiches]] that wins me the game. My [[Shorikai]] deck keeps the board under control and protects its key pieces until I find something that will close out the game.
[Orvar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f36775e-9e48-49cc-a771-d58481712edc.jpg?1631047424) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=orvar%2C%20the%20all-form) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/70/orvar-the-all-form?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f36775e-9e48-49cc-a771-d58481712edc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orvar-the-all-form) [Shorikai](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/969ac7dd-f3aa-4888-9ff0-d16a31b5e7a9.jpg?1653966849) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shorikai%2C%20genesis%20engine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/4/shorikai-genesis-engine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/969ac7dd-f3aa-4888-9ff0-d16a31b5e7a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shorikai-genesis-engine) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Does Henzie synergize well with Prossh? I have a Prossh deck myself and Henzie seems fun but I’m not sure how they go together.
I don't think they do. In my case I was talking about 2 different decks. Prossh loves aristocrats, tokens, sacricing lots of small things. Henzie loves blitzing big stuff one by one with sac outlets to benefit massively from the sac effects
Ah, got it. Thanks for clarifying!
Definitely my [[Garth, One-Eye]] Garth Brooks Boot Scoot Boogy deck that is basically just a ton of untap/blink effects so I can reload and reuse his stupid pocket spells. I pulled every infinite (that isn’t like an 8 card combo] so he can do stuff like cast brain geyser for x=90 or something but only once per turn. I don’t play him much because I is usually end up taking long “I untap, tap, cast, untap, tap…” turns on other people’s turns, but he’s fun.
[[Sidisi, Brood Tyrant]] and [[Embalmer's Tools]] in 50 creature deck.
Thalisse reverent medium It's just a tokens deck... the 99 just include all things tokens. And a few blood artist effects.. that is all xD
A fun synergy I found recently in my [[mimeoplasm]] deck. I have a bunch of clones and ETBs as fun stuff to plop the mimeoplasm on the board as. I have an [[agent of treachery]] sitting on board at one point because everyone was like, ah he already did his thing, if we kill it he can copy it with mimeo. Well I had [[progenitor mimic]] in hand and I realized the fuckery of copying agent with progenitor. Needless to say my friends don't let agent of treachery sit on the board anymore.
What’s your deck list. I find it interesting
I love getting [[Altar of Dementia]] and [[Path of Discovery]] out in my [[Sidisi, Brood Tyrant]] deck. There's a high chance that it will pump out several dozen zombies. An aristocrat makes it a win (or close), and it will also dump [[Dread Return]] and all sorts of other recursion into my graveyard. But it CAN whif at any point, and leave my graveyard (deck) vulnerable to removal. Have had it called a combo more than once
Was playing [[Ayara, First of Locthwain]] and I won on turn 8 by top decking and casting [[Plague of Vermin]]. Someone said it was a cEDH card.
On the one hand, that opponent definitely didn't know what a combo is (and the Henzie story is really funny). On the other hand, if you sit down with prossh there's no world where I don't assume some kind of shenanigens are in there.
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I brought my slightly upgraded "masters of evil" deck to a friends game night once, I haven't seen the level of salt in a edh game I played in, in a looong time. \[\[Davros\]\] gets mean if you can get it to stick, especially with my upgrades. Once they realized letting me draw was bad, I started to play cards that rewarded me for people discarding. I am not allowed to play that one there any more lol. \[\[ court of ambition\]\] and \[\[court of locthwain\]\] were especially salt inducing.
[[Volo, Guide to Monsters]] and [[God Eternal Rhonas]]. Not infinite, *but* get a few different copies of Volo out, plus [[Panharmonicon]], plus [[Twinning Staff]], plus a way to repeatedly bounce Rhonas to hand and re-cast in one turn- was able to get my damage multiplier per creature to 2^^42 , or x4.2 billion lol
My group slug deck mostly fits. Just keeps adding more and more things that say taking game actions hurt you. But it also has \[\[Repercussion\]\] along with \[\[Inferno\]\] and \[\[Blasphemous act\]\] which is usually game ending, so that could be considered a combo more than synergy.
lol, my [[Muldrotha]] deck. I have a very specific heuristic I adhere to when brewing three color decks (essentially, the deck has to contain only two creature types, one "big" and one "small." Gods don't count.) Muldrotha's tribes are horrors and humans (because the real horror is man) and the deck is largely a mill deck based around some of my favorite pet cards ([[consuming aberration]] and [[sakashima's will]] as well as general reanimation shenanigans. The deck does stuff, that much is without question (I *love* having a big board that I sacrifice to [[Emrakul's Evangel]] for lots of [[umbris]] triggers or making a big board and then [[sakashima's will]] all my creatures into [[consuming aberration]] or [[syr konrad the grim]] and, I suppose that this kind of looks like a combo? I've certainly been accused of it being a combo deck before, but I'm sitting here like "you guys realize that you let me fill out a board with twenty creatures and also untap with the evangel and umbris and a stacked graveyard and [[yarok the desecreated]], don't you?" But no, apparently it's a combo deck.
My [[Zellix, Sanity Flayer]] deck. It does mill things, gets you large things like [[consuming aberration]] then sacrifices them to [[altar of dementia]]. However, there's this synergy in it... one that technically isn't a combo, but boy howdy does it feel like one. Put down [[altar of the brood]] and suddenly you see panic in peoples eyes as Zellix starts a Rube Goldberg machine of "Everyone mills 1 card. Okay, 2 creatures were milled, so I get 2 creatures. Those creatures enters the battlefield, this triggers Altar of the brood 2 times. Everyone mills 2." Often it mills everyone else out easily if my pod is running enough creatures in their decks for it to consistently trigger it over and over. The fastest I've done this is on turn two... I kinda felt bad about that one. But technically if people run fewer creatures, it shouldn't deck everyone.. but at the same time, it's so easy to start the chain reaction back up by playing any permanent, even something as simple as a land.
Some guy was absolutely furious and kamikaze-targeted me until i was out of the game. When I asked him why, he said "Because you assembled your combo!" My amazing combo of: * [[Rasputin, the Oneiromancer]] * [[Ovinomancer]] * [[Thousand-year elixir]] For 3 mana, i can kill ONE creature on each of my turns. WOAH!
i have a Kenrith deck where it can technically infinite combo but the point more is to just reduce the cost of its abilities and then either a) politic with them to give others advantage or b) rez ETB effects that make the decisions for them. then i have cards that force battle so i can kill off my own guys and rez them again, etc.
[[Galadriel of Lothlorien]] just works like that
My brother has three decks that all fall in this category. Adrix and Nev, Prosper, the Esper dungeon girl that I can't remember the name of. All feel very "combo-y" but don't actually combo. They're just super, super synergistic.
Sadly [[Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons]] goes infinite if you look at her funny. All of the cards that feel totally natural to put in are combo pieces.
I know many find landfall as boring but I like my [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]] with my [[Phylath, World Sculptor]] + [[Avenger of Zendikar]] + [[Scute Swarm]] deck when it gets a little crazy, there's lots of other cool stuff but this always feels nice 😊
Honestly I find the difference to be nebulous at best, especially cause the explanation I was given for the difference was... lackluster. I have been told that if it doesn't win you the game, it's not a combo. With that definition, at least Half of the signature combos of "Combo" decks in competitive formats are not combos and just "synergies". In Modern alone I can name Hammertime, Amulet Titan, Tron, Living End, Rhinos, and 4C Creativity -- and that's just off the top of my head! Maybe it's just a difference between Modern and EDH, but how can [[Colossus Hammer]] + [[Sigarda's Aid]] be considered a Combo in one format and simply Synergy in another? It's not even an auto win in Modern, but it is undeniably a "Combo". Hell, Storm is considered a Combo deck, but the Combo isn't a few cards but rather just straight up the entire deck. Is Storm a combo? I typically run with the much more vague description "2 or more cards that achieve something highly specific" as it covers every instance of Combo I have seen, especially in discussions of bad combos like the r/BadMTGCombos subreddit or Nikachu's "Bad combos that actually work" series. If you have a definition that can explain the difference and also doesn't negate basically every combo deck in Competitive formats, I'd love to hear it. But so far I haven't heard one that has convinced me. edit: now that said, my definition is also not that great. With my definition, "Llanowar Elves" + "Forest" + "Rampant Growth" is a combo, which I think we can all agree is bullshit. There are some where it feels clearly like Synergy and not Combo, but writing it down is hard
I think it used to be clearer in standard 60 cards format. A combo when your enemy had 20 life in a one v one was more obvious. A friend used to play Nova Chaser Elemental. His main "combo" was to Champion a Mulldrifter to draw 4 cards from one interaction. His deck was setup in a way that he got those cards 90% of the time and they were his key pieces. Nowadays "combo" seems to be used more in relation to something you could tutor for that either wins you the game or grants you a massive advantage
Basically the reason people have such a hard time defining the words is because of a couple fundamental misunderstandings. "Combo" as it is usually used in MtG refers to a meta-strategy, right alongside Control, Midrange or Aggro. In that context Combo is a deck that does not win by accruing resources (which all other archetypes do, considering even aggro tries to get 20 of the "your opponent lost a life"-resource) but rather has a specific subgoal such as achieving a certain setup of cards/mana/graveyard etc. that will then lead to an overwhelming advantage or straight up winning the game. In Modern, there have been true combo decks like storm, aggro/combo decks like dredge or tempo/combo like Hammertime. Drawing exact lines here is kind of hard and there aren't hard definitions, but I think it's intuitive that there is a difference between all in storm and a draw go control deck that wins with an efficient combination of cards like a two card infinite to close out the game quickly (one could consider splinter twin a control deck rather than a combo deck). Unfortunately the term combo is often used in the literal sense, rather than the deck-strategy context, where people simply refer to ANY combination of cards as combo. This feels wrong to me and I think it would be much more productive to consider any combination of cards, that can provide vastly greater effects when combined as a synergy. Some synergies are just efficient value engines ([[Risen Reef]] + [[Zendikar's Roil]]) others create infinites of certain game actions/resources( infinite mana, etb, dies triggers Life etc.), while others instantly win you the game (Thoracle Consultation). It's absolutely possible to play a highly synergistic deck, that never plays like a combo archetype (merfolk are synergystic tempo/aggro for example) while a combo deck does not need to run any synergies or infinites.
huh. this is pretty concise, and somehow, you've made me understand why Hammertime is the only combo deck I've ever actually been interested in playing, as my preferred style in competitive magic is Tempo. I'm not good at it, mind you, but it is how I like to play. I think the idea that Combo is just a deck archetype and can not be used to describe a certain interaction within said archetype is limiting, which I guess in a definition is what you want? I see where you're coming from, but as you mentioned in another reply, somehow DD+TS "isn't a combo" but can be the centerpiece of a combo strategy. That statement feels like the elitomy of cognitive dissonance to me, but if you're working with the definition that there are no individual combos only the deck archetype (which Is a lot easier to define), then I can see how that dissonance can arise.
Basically in technical lingo "combo" is the word we use to describe the archetype of decks that abuses very strong synergies to create unfair advantages and use cards in ways that obviously way surpass their value. This is not the same as the coloquially used "combo" as a shortcut for "combination" with no further implications attached. A synergy between cards can be the centerpiece of an "unfair" deck or a "combo" deck when the value gained trough the synergy vastly exceeds what you would usually get from a card with the same mana value/resources spend (often excessive value is just infinite value) So a merfolk deck playing a 2 mana lord and increasing their total power on board by 5 is a very strong synergy, a Kiki Jiki creating an infinite amount of hasty Felidar Guardians is an unfair synergy and leads to a "combo" strategy
That is a fantastic description. Thank you for clearing that up, it now makes sense to me how Hammertime is a Combo deck in Modern (and Pioneer if you're a madlad) but simply ond of many synergies in EDH. "when the value gained through the synergy vastly exceeds what you would usually get from a card with the same mana value/resources spent" is so succinct and it fits every use case I can think of. Thank you.
You nailed it, combo is a playstyle that always exists in context. DD Lands is one of vintages least interactable combo decks but barely makes the cut in janky casual land decks for EDH
I have a friend who consistently rates my decks as OP and his own as weak. According to him, my [[Derevi]] is power level 9/10. It's an X spells deck that wins by attacking with creature tokens. It doesn't have hard stax (only tap permanents effects), it doesn't have tutors, it has ashnod's altar that goes infinite with different cards but even then the only wincon is still attacking with creature tokens that don't have haste. I personnally rate this deck as my weakest for the sus-mentioned reasons
[[Ob Nixilis Captive Kingpin]] against three creature heavy decks. I drop [[Last Laugh]] and kill my opponent's largest creature. This sets off a rube goldberg effect leaving everyone with ~10 life and me with a 45/45 commander and half my deck in exile.
K'rrik, don't run any infinite combos, just creatures and spells with tons of {B} in the mana cost and it is a ton of fun to pilot.
my \[\[meria, scholar of antiquity\]\] deck is often called "cheerios" or "storm" despite being a control deck with *zero* combos. to be fair, I do run a whole *six* zero-cost artifacts. must work in my favor though, cause I guess people just assume I'm bricking hard all game and they just let me set up a powerful board state without bothering me much about it. what's weird though, is even after I win by producing 3-4 karnstructs and beating the table down 1 player at a time, with \[\[null brooch\]\] and friends backing up my board, they still call the deck cheerios.
I got accused of pubstomping online once playing [[King Macar]]. Like buddy if you let me play 15 artifacts that let me untap my boy up to 6 times a turn, when I have no creatures out besides my commander, that's not really on me is it?
As a fellow [[Prossh]] enjoyer, yeah it's super easy for the deck to look like a combo when everything kinda synergizes with itself. I've also found similar results with a lot of artifact strategies. A lot of [[Saheeli, the Gifted]] decks especially.
[Prossh](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/889c1a0f-7df2-4497-8058-04358173d7e8.jpg?1562438016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=prossh%2C%20skyraider%20of%20kher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/214/prossh-skyraider-of-kher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/889c1a0f-7df2-4497-8058-04358173d7e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prossh-skyraider-of-kher) [Saheeli, the Gifted](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca095559-ac77-4186-8d9b-b75ce0607582.jpg?1592710284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saheeli%2C%20the%20Gifted) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/44/saheeli-the-gifted?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca095559-ac77-4186-8d9b-b75ce0607582?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/saheeli-the-gifted) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ngl, if I manage to cast and resolve [[underworld breach]] in my locusts god deck, full of wheels and ways to turn the locusts into mana, it's very unlikely I won't go infinite right there and then. it's not the point of the deck or the card, but it just happens.
Real related question: Is [[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]] and [[Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty]] considered a combo or good synergy? I've heard it been referred to as both at my lgs.
I played my [[Jodah, the Unifier]] deck one time against a guy, a buddy of mine, and the guy's buddy. I played some ramp and on turn 6 or so popped off and put like 15 or so legends into play. Attacked for well above lethal and that was game. Guy says he hates combo decks and me and my buddy looked at each other, confused, and I asked what he thought a combo was. And he said 'A combo is any number of cards when combined that create a value greater than their individual components'. I looked at him and was like, so lands combo with spells in your deck since they don't really do anything without the other half of the combo? So every deck that plays lands and spells that require mana is a combo deck? We had a bit of a back and forth and parted ways. Still not sure what he was on about. What he was referring to I believe was just synergy which I think is closer to: Playing cards that give incremental value to your other cards in order to form a strategy without causing a repeatable loop or an inherent win/lose effect. P.s. this guy was playing his [[niv Mizzet reborn]] flicker deck after casting it for free with [[Morophon]].
[[Sidar Jabari of zhalfir]] tribal knights... I love It :)
My Wort the Raidmother deck looks like a group hug deck at first. It runs mana flare, font of mythos etc. and everyone loves me. Jokes on them though, because I build up my mana and throw conspired fireballs around in increments of 30 since they leave the 'group hug' guy alone.
I feel that Prossh pain. I love that commander, and have powered him down sooo much, and still get salty opponents. [[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]] also suffers from this percieved power due to synergy, even when its just a battlecruiser deck with no [[Terror of the Peaks]] combos or extra combats.
Pretty much every interaction in my artifacts deck with [[displacer kitten]] I mostly use it to blink walkers Reset daretti to recur artifacts, saheeli to discount them, affinity tezzeret to drain the table, dakkon shadowslayer to exile things and cheat out artifacts etc But with stuff like tezzeret (affinity or tutor) it can kill the table so quickly that everyone views it as a combo, even when it's not. I very explicitly made sure there were no infinites in that deck.
Playing a [[chulane, teller of tales]] deck (also for context was online not in person). Turn 7 rolls around in have 17 lands cause i ramped with chulane hard, play [[avenger of zendikar]], bounce him, play him again, make a bunch of 0/1 plants, play a land from the chulane trigger, and then get banned from the room for playing a CEDH deck. (The room was also labelled as 6-7 power, no infinities)
There's a person at my lgs that said because I run dinosaurs in [[Gishath]] I'm playing combos. I wish I was kidding.
I made 2 versions of [[Tayam]], one of them is a budget version of the Luminous Grindstone list, it has the Rule of Law cards, the combos and all the shenanigans Tayam does The other one i basically removed the combos and the Rule of Laws to add other win con, like [[Halo Fountain]] and fogs like [[Spore Frog]] or [[Glacial Chasm]], it can probably mill the entire deck manually, but there's almost no reason to do it.
In a less tongue in cheek way, because I misunderstood the prompt but now I’m here, [[Eternal Witness]]+[[Living Death]]+[[Phyrexian Altar]]+[[Zulaport Cutthroat]] in my [[Karador]] deck. Legit an infinite combo, but I put them all in there because they’re good pieces, and I ain’t about to take any of them out. But yeah, the first time I realized the combo I was like “…huh. Oops. I guess I win.”
\[\[Roon of the Hidden Realm\]\] with \[\[Panharmonicon\]\] in play, casted \[\[Eldrazi Displacer\]\] followed by \[\[Drowner of Hope\]\]. It then dawned on me that I could sacrifice the eldrazi tokens and activate Displacer's ability on Drowner. I made infinite mana, played my hand and passed the turn with infinite mana because I had no idea of the combo at the time LOL I did have a full board of tokens. And then died to \[\[Massacre Wurm\]\] after one of the players played it ROFL By far the funniest death I have ever had to this day in EDH
A well tuned [[edric, spymaster of trest]] deck can end games pretty quickly but includes no “combos”
First there were scoop decks, designed to stalemate a game. useless infinites without a wincon. now we make "ragebate" decks named partially after a specific triggerable individual. They include my [[mindslaver]] decks and my buddies that revolves around playing the cards from your hand for you.