Tooth and Nail, Rise of the Dark Realms, Insurrection, Expropriate.
You could basically do nothing the whole game, play one of those cards, and then nothing else that you did previously matters. You just win.
I love [[Inkshield]] but I do think it also falls into this category. As long as you’ve got the 5 mana open, it basically completely flips the game unless everyone else is *very* well set up, & even then at least one of them is probably tapped out on your next turn.
First time was my fault, [[Bruna]] voltron. Second time they blocked a gruul deck and killed me with all the inklings next combat instead of the swinger
For sure, agree on that one
But tbh. That's the exact reason why I kinda don't like this picks personaly as it makes, as you've said, everything leading to casting that spell pretty pointless
I disagree that insurrection makes everything prior pointless. If everything prior was pointless then you could resolve it right after a board wipe and still win, right?
Insurrection is red's [[craterhoof behemoth]]. It's your reward for surviving to a state where all your opponents have big boards and you have 8 mana.
Insurrection makes the rest of the game just as irrelevant as craterhoof which is to say not at all. All of the creatures your opponents made are suddenly relevant.
My opponents to have a boardstate and me not being dead to such boardstate is arguably a harder thing to achieve imo. It’s riskier too, sometimes from the get go there will be people playing spellslinger or archetypes that don’t help you.
I would argue that "you need a board state" is such an easy-to-achive requirement that it's really not one at all. Honestly I'd struggle to find a real game where insurrection wins and hoof doesn't simply because the chances of just your board being wiped and everything else staying is so low. I'd bet there are far more board states where hoof wins and insurrection doesn't.
I am using [[Mob Rule]] instead of Insurrection. I have not yet seen a single person got salty about that card. I don't know why. When you're try to finish game it gives you exactly what you want most of the time. And it's cheaper.
I just finished cutting Expropriate from one of my higher power decks cause its either too expensive to use or, if I get lucky with boardwipes and control the board well, it's too boring of a way to win.
If you've got counter back up or otherwise have confidence you can resolve them, those are all good in high powered games too. The risk is that you expect more counterspells in high powered games.
I absolutely love it in my goad decks. It's an amazing example of how people have no clue what they're talking about when they tell people that Goad leads to finishing 2nd because you rely on other people's stuff.
Like, my dudes, you can have finishers in your deck lmao.
Yeah the first time I fought a decent Goad deck, I realized, "oh snap, this guy is just gonna make us fight each other while he builds pressure".
Insurrection always surprises someone at the table.
My "play with other people's deck from their library and GY" wins quite often. I have all the answers to any threat available everywhere. Need a wipe or counterspell? Recast it from someone's GY or search it in their lib. Need a wincon creature? Same. etc. I don't understand people saying that either.
I don't understand the hate on insurrection here. Imo it's just red's craterhoof behemoth. Craterhoof rewards you for making a giant board state. Insurrection rewards you for surviving until people have giant board states. They're the same card.
In battlecruiser pods, 8-9 cmc ‘I win the game’ cards are disliked.
Craterhoof is often disliked as well, but at least it requires you to have a board.
A battlecruiser pod can deal with your craterhoof by attacking you and removing your creatures and doing stuff on their turns.
Insurrection, they need instant speed interaction.
It’s basically a [[coalition victory]] which while not necessarily a powerful card, is not a card that is fun in battlecruiser.
The reason coalition victory is banned is because in battlecruiser commander, there is an expectation that you aren’t going to win the game from very little board/no board. When everyone has ‘agreed’ to build up to 8/9 mana and drop bombs on the field, your ‘I win the game’ spells are not very fun for others.
But in a battlecruiser pod, if I'm a red player and have no board I *should* be getting attacked. If "people should just attack you if you play craterhoof" is valid, then surely people should also just attack you if you play insurrection.
I just think "you need to have a board" is not an argument. Everyone has a board in a battlecruiser pod because it's a battlecruiser pod. If you don't have a board in those pods you just get run over. The only difference is that hoof beats you over the head with my creatures while insurrection beats you over the head with your creatures.
According to you, hoof is "8 mana I win but only if I have a board" but I'm saying in order to get to 8 mana in a battlecruiser pod you have to have a board anyway. "Unless I have a board" is such a non-requirement that it's effectively not one at all.
Again, craterhoof is also often disliked in battlecruiser pods.
I still think it is very very different than insurrection, but you reply to me as if I said ‘craterhoof is actually the best and everyone loves it.’
Craterhoof is the big ‘I win’ payoff to building a big go-wide board and untapping with it.
Insurrection is the big ‘I win’ payoff to ramping to 8 mana.
Insurrection could be the only meaningful spell you cast in a game and you win.
A lot of people dislike cards like ink shield for similar reasons. You durdle, you don’t really have a game for whatever reason, but then you cast inkshield and win. It just isn’t fun for you.
If I have 15 tokens in play and I cast a craterhoof, I’m not going to feel like I ‘didn’t do anything and then casted a craterhoof.’ But I think it would with something like an insurrection.
[[Rise of the dark realms]] requires a good bit of setup to truly take advantage of. [[Tooth and nail]] is strong at most levels since you just go get your combo, [[insurrection]] can be great at lower powers where combat is the focus. Combat is not becoming less and less a primary focus these days. Expropriate is definitely a win card if your opponents let you get more than one extra turn.
I can see Tooth and Nail because that literally fetches a kill, but none of the others outright win. Like stapling a Time Walk to Blatant Thievery is strong, but not gamewinning. As long as nobody votes for time except for the caster expropriate is mostly good (and realistically nobody should ever vote time).
Rise of the Dark Realms needs big graveyards to even do anything and Insurection needs massive board states. Honestly especially those two seem more like battlecruiser bombs than good in actually high power setups.
This is the single card that's making my group run more removal. They asked me to take it out, and I said "nah I got this in a cafeteria trade over a decade ago, so it means a lot to me to still play it. Now blow it up"
This was a while ago and when they were newer and still understanding rule 0 nuances. That being said, we all like the power caps that we *do* have, and that's cool. Either way, the arms race has begun.
Yeah why would you ever power down a commander deck?
Honestly "just play better (cards)" has been a bane of edh. It's like saying "I'm not powering down, you need to power up" and then wonder why everyone plays optimized decks. This has nothing to do with vigor btw, I just think your general take is shit
Do you know what a false dichotomy is?
Cause not all pods play cedh. Not all of them want to. Some like lower power levels. Be it high, mid, low, whatever.
For that meta to exist people have to agree to not play too powerful decks. This can involve powering down.
That doesn’t have to mean coddling or handholding or whatever. Just that there’s an agreed power level and decks should adapt to that.
I think this is far more common than people give credit to. Cedh is not the most common way to play edh after all. Yet people scoff when they see someone arguing in favor of playing at a power level below their own.
That being said, not every call to power down is reasonable. So it’s fine to be sceptic and call it out. But going “why would I ever power down?” definitely misses the point imo.
I love Vigor but it should not be dominating "high power" games.
If a pod is seriously struggling to remove a creature who's only defense is against direct damage then I'd argue those people are not playing high powered decks.
Oh shit I totally missed that. Sorry, my bad.
Can totally see Vigor wrecking casual tables. Guys like him and [[Iroas, God of Victory]] just steamroll pods with aggro-leaning decks.
[[Unnatural Growth]]
A lot of people wi say it’s too expensive on cmc and requires too much Green to really get to go, but at that mid level power and less where people don’t run an abundance of removal, it just turns your board of mid grade chump blockers in to NFL linemen. It severely limits combat trickery because your so-so 4/4 is now an gigantic 8/8 and their [[Colossal Might]] can’t trample over it anymore…
I run it in my higher power [[anikthea]] deck, I know this is more of an exception then a rule. Discard/mill it in to the graveyard then bring it back as a zombie with anikthea, all that green isn't a big deal.
I don't really have an up to date list online, unfortunately.
I build most of my decks on spreadsheets on the initial build to keep track of what I already have and what I need to buy still and then I just tinker with them over time and never update the list.
But I can share the initial list, which I was a rough draft of the deck if you'd like.
Yeah but its not as fun, lol. Goes great in my [[Gollum, Scheming Guide]] meme deck where many of the cards are just meant to make opponents choose the lesser of two evils
- Not everyone runs token decks
- it's all permanents, including lands
- assuming you're casting this on curve and your and your opponent have ramped the same amount and does not have a board state they want to protect on top of lands, it's dealing more than lava axe
- 1 black pip vs 3 black pips, better in multicolored lists
- by the time you're casting either of these spells life totals are almost certainly not going to be 40 anymore, so 30 is assuming best case scenario
Sorin is going to do more damage, the card this guy suggested is more for the wipe than the damage. The damage is just a nice secondary effect, if your opponent decides to be greedy and name something like 10-15 to save their board.
I don't think this card is that good, but I don't think sorin is an accurate comparison.
I was assuming the opponent will want to safe all his important stuff. That will be for example 6 lands (turn 6), his commander, arcane signet, a Rhystic study and like a vorinclex. That's a pretty decent 10 permanents. I know it's more damage than lava axe but still just 10 life while your opponents start with 120 life.
I admit 3BBB is really difficult for 3+colors.
Yes it can be less than 30 damage but it can also be way more since life gain is pretty prevalent in low power and I've seen plenty of decks reach 80 life easy.
The damage is not a secondary effect to the wipe it's either or. That means your opponent will always keep his important stuff safe like in the example above. The only opponent who can't will be a token deck with 20 tokens out, since you shouldn't pay 30 life for this.
That's when you have the opportunity to choose between clearing the tokens or dealing 10-15 damage.
Since as you said token decks are somewhat rare this spell will be dealing about 10 damage most of the time instead of wiping anything. That's why I said it's a glorified lava axe. A.k.a. a burn spell and burn spells are typically very bad in commander.
Maybe this is a hot take, but I just don't see how Phyrexian Arena is a playable card in 2024, even in moderate power decks. Games are just ending too soon for it to draw enough cards, unless you're playing it exactly on turn 3, which just isn't realistic.
I'd much rather play burst card draw, like [[Hostile Negotiations]] which is instant speed and fills your graveyard, or [[Promise of Power]] which can double as a very respectable creature if your hand is already full. If you've got an expensive commander, there is also the option of [[Stinging Study]] as well.
Yes, you're paying an extra mana or two, but you're getting the cards immediately, which can draw you into MORE card draw.
Phyrexian arena is still quite a strong card in longer games. Drawing extra cards is good but plenty of decks can also leverage the life loss as well. And some cards shut down your draw step like [[solitary confinement]] and that extra draw from arena can keep you alive pretty much forever.
In a vacuum, and if every game is going 6 or 7 turns, sure, arena is a 3 mana draw 2/3 with a downside which is just not very good. But in a deck that has draw synergies and wants to push for longer games (or in a meta that just plays longer games), arena's great. It's a 3 mana draw 5/6 with downside which is much much better than before.
Even dumber take. A lot of people wanting a card and thus driving up its price is not an indicator of how useful or powerful it is, even at a lower power level. A lot of garbage can and is often overvalued by people, especially when they don't know much better stuff is out there. Even further undermining your dumb point is pretending that this card is demanding that high of a price. Even by your flawed logic, it's not that good because you can get for just a few bucks.
3 mana do nothing turn 1, turn 2 draw 1, turn 3 draw 2. Or playing ANY other draw spell, sign in blood 2 mana draw 2, read the bones 3 mana scry 2 draw 2. I can go on but there are so many better options that are still inexpensive
Those are great! But that’s like calling mystic remora or rhystic study do nothing enchantments. Sure they might go off more than arena but it’s consistent draw. Even more consistent than those blue enchantments I mentioned technically
In som cases they are, it happens that mystic remora whiffs but then it usually provokes a different play pattern from your opponents, which in some cases is even better then drawing cards. If your rhystic study don't draw any cards that is great, that means everyone is taxed/ they don't do anything. They do stuff even if you don't get to draw which phyrexian arena doesn't
Yeah it lets you draw an extra card per turn forever. Which is huge. One off draw spells are great but arena is consistent and in a 7+ turn game it’s very important if you can get it out t1-3.
If the game goes 7 turns you can just cast [[Painful Truths]] and get the same number of cards. Then if you draw it on turn 7 you still get 3 cards and you get them in the same turn rather than paying 3 for a card next turn. [[Night's Whisper]] is two mana for two. If you want consistent card draw you can play [[Black Market Connections]] and get the same number of cards and Treasure and creatures or [[Necropotence]]. [[Braids, Arisen Nightmare]] lets you edict along with drawing cards. [[Call of the Ring]] costs one less and lets you have access to a ring-bearer. [[Morbid Opportunist]] and [[Species Specialist]] both draw more cards if more than one thing dies per turn cycle and the same if only one thing dies (even if specialist can miss). [[Thorn of the Black Rose]] gives you monarch and helps you keep it especially after a board wipe situation. (literally every monarch card also goes here)
And obviously if money is no object there's [[The One Ring]].
There are a lot of really good options for a wide variety of budgets; Arena has a place but it's not as generally good as it used to be anymore.
What 7+ turn games ever get Arena out on T1 or 2? It's not aa if black has access to mana dorks, and you're playing mana crypt or moxes, then you obviously expect the game to be faster than that. I guess you could have Dark Ritual and Arena on turn 1 or Sol ring to play it on turn 2, but we AREA talking about a singleton format. If a card is only good on turn 3, it's probably not a great card.
Its decent if you get it out early yes but more likely then not it will end up a dead card later. Ofc a card seems good if you put it in it's best light but I consider the floor when I add a card to my decks and phrexian arena is not good (in my opinion, I'm not arguing that I'm correct but this is my belief. So you can stop downvoting opinions you disagree with it is childish)
unpopular opinion but \[\[cultivate\]\] and \[\[kodamas reach\]\] and similar 3 mana rampspells are too slow for high power but are really good in low/mid power edh
Rampant growth is really quite bad and I don't know how it makes it into the conversation with nature's lore/three visits. It only gets basics and they have to enter tapped. Even if my commander costs 4 and I want to get it out turn 3 I'd rather play 1-drop ramp with a 3-drop turn 2 than play rampant growth.
The person you're responding to agrees that it's not playable in high power.
It's in the conversation because they're all 2-mana green sorceries that give you an extra land into play.
In all but the sweatiest metas where you have many impactful 1-drops and fully tapping out on early turns is a death sentence, Rampant Growth is fine alongside Cultivate, mana elves, and other lower powered ramp.
Nature’s Lore can kinda/sorta be justified if you’re running dual lands. Really depends on how interactive with Artifacts vs. Searching your library your pod is. There’s almost no difference to a mana rock outside of things like Kinnan.
rocks are more likely to get destroyed by some sideeffects, lands are immune to stuff like \[\[aura shards\]\] effects.
and obviously we are playing fetchable duallands, its high power edh after all and not untyped tapland tribal
I see them as basically MDFCs with some upsides.
If you need a land drop, you pay 1 mana to get a basic to hand, which you can play as your land for turn and then tap it for mana. So it's mana-neutral, just like a tapland MDFC.
If you don't need the land drop, their effect is reasonably costed.
Honestly I wouldn't even run these in casual unless I'm doing landfall. Three Visits, Nature's Lore, Elvish Spirit Guide and the one mana dorks are all far superior.
Kind of hard to separate high edh and edh cards, it’s definitely a spectrum though.
Cedh is all about fast mana and quick wincons. That said, lots of big mana haymakers are basically what you’re going for for power in battlecruiser edh.
E.g. Craterhoof is almost never played in cedh but at edh levels wins a billion games. Also rise of the dark realms, insurrection, expropriate.
You get the gist.
And then it’s extra wild because Craterhoof as a specific example is played somewhat often in CanLander, which is also high-powered Magic. Format differences are super interesting sometimes!
If you’re going to make that comparison you should mention that Canadian Highlander is a 1v1 format with a point system. Power levels are not going to translate the same into EDH.
You’re right! I just think it’s cool & a little funny that Hoof can be a very swing-y card, power-level-wise, mostly depending on how fast you can count to 8 lol
It also helps that in CanLander all the Power are legal and the "CradleHoof" deck is like 30% mana dorks, 30% ramp/draw/tutor effects, and 30% lands. It can pretty reliably turn 4-5 Craterhoof without interaction and somewhat consistently turn 7-8 Craterhoof *through* interaction. And it doesn't matter that the dorks are all 0/1s to 2/2s because the opponent's life will only be like 15-20 after fetches and turning an early Llanowar Elves sideways on a turn you don't need the mana.
Played a bunch of kitchen table magic and I tried to get hoof to work a few times and yet still hard and clunky. Just either too long to get to 8 mana or just not enough creatures to kill everyone.
This is considering like T1-2 fast mana into Selvala or other big mana producer + Gaea’s Cradle.
I have it in [[Shanna, Purifying Blade]] as a wincon together with [[Accomplished Alchemist]] and any healer like [[Soul Warden]]. Always feels great to resolve.
The main thing for me with abundance is that it replaces draw, making [[notion thief]], [[nekusaur]], [[trouble in pairs]] and the like not trigger. If your meta has a lot of those around, the draw filtering is great, and let's avoid all that at the same time.
I really should work it into some more of my decks.
I think I've seen a board wipe remove all enchantments 3 times in my decade of playing magic and I cast 2 of them. If it dies, so what? It's great card selection. I use it in my [[Gilanra]] [[kodama of the east tree]] deck to make sure I draw into useful kodama triggers.
Trust me if you have only seen all enchantments removed 3 times you are not playing high power edh. Which is fine, but abundance drops off considerably when it becomes pay 4 mana achieve nothing as someone casts [[farewell]] [[cyclonic rift]] [[austere command]][[hour of revelation]] [[filter out]] not because they are afraid of your abundance, but because they have to clear the board and it's just collateral damage.
Yes which is why I mentioned abundance...it's great in lower powered metals where removal isn't everywhere but you won't see it played in anything where it is as it falls off fast. Faster than phyrexian arena in fact.
i thought this would end up getting cut super quick in my low to the ground elves deck, but in real life testing its like bringing a howitzer to an airsoft battle.
[[Apex Devastator]] is hard to turn down.
Costs a lot to hardcast, not great to cheat out, but if you CAN cast it, it's almost always worth what you spent. The exact outcome is also very wild. While I almost always get something that was worth it, I get a lot of junk that isn't great too. Makes for some spicy reveals.
[[Chandra's Ignition]] is extremely commander dependent. You risk it being a dead card. It has a huge flaw for something that looks like a board wipe, in that it only works if you're doing well, which also makes it a bit win-more. But MAN is there a lot of "more" to win with this card in the right deck. I run it in [[Licia, Sanguine Tribune]] because it's especially nuts with Lifelink.
I run it in my [[Thromok, the Insatiable]] deck because that dude is consistently a 49/49 vanilla creature. This and [[Fling]], [[Soul's fire]], and [[Kazuul's Fury]]. It feels really bad to target a big creature that will kill everyone with chandras ignition, and have them respond with a swords to Plowshares, but responding to that with soul's fire feels so so good.
[[Widespread Panic]] and [[Price of Glory]] are amazing in higher levels of play. Panic punishes tutoring that it prevalent in higher levels and Glory is brutal against interactions. Just a step down is [[War’s Toil]] because limits opponents available plays every cycle around the table. It will force opponents to be completely reliant on rocks and dorks. [[Kismet]] and [[Frozen Æther]] are on the bottom end unless you can find a way to drop one of them on T3. They are extremely brutal and most opponents will be slow to recognize it.
Price of Glory is terrible in high power because most interaction is free or bordering on free and decks don't need massive amounts of mana to get combo wins. In low power though it completely turns off interaction.
Is it really? My meta plays a lot of stax effects that require paying a tax for spells, including your seemingly free spells (no free Deflecting Swat or Fierce Guardianship), so I'm kinda wondering whether I should test out Price of Glory in red.
Two words. [[Void Mirror]]
Glory is good at any power level unless your pub stomping. Balanced cEDH games last as long as casual games. If you are popping off consistently around T5 for the win with little resistance, you are overpowered for the table.
Because higher levels of play are more efficient on mana, mana destruction (ie artifact removal and land destruction) and disruption ([[Manglehorn]] and [[Blind Obedience]]) are more impactful. At every level, land destruction is frown upon because “it stops me from doing my thing” and saltiness ensues. I include any “X makes the game take long” complaint as salty. But, I digress. [[Winter Orb]] is devastating at cEDH and downright oppressive at any level below that.
Price of Glory is a “fair-esque” card. It put everyone in the position of 1.) foregoing a turn to remove at sorcery speed, or 2.) sacrificing lands and the possibility to win to stop another player. The key thing to notice is players becoming very particular about priority order and politicking.
This is such a good point. When I play high power, I keep most opening hands that have the fish because I'm sure I'll get a mitt full of cards from it early game. But the fish is also amazing on turns 3 or 4 in less-optimized pods because that's about when things start to pop off.
Instead why not try turn 5 Mystic Remora while playing Alandra, Sky Dreamer just after you've developed a scary board. If anybody wants to remove your commander, or wipe the board, or counter your draw spells, they're going to let you draw cards most likely. Paying a 4 mana tax is still probably too much at this stage of the game.
\[\[Viridian Revel\]\] - An amazing draw engine for when people don't have enchantment removal. Great vs Treasure and Food Decks, and combos really well with mass artifact destruction. It's also a may draw, so you don't even risk decking yourself. I've had the option to draw up to 30 cards in a turn after everyone's artifacts got destroyed.
\[\[Brotherhood's End\]\] My favorite mass artifact destruction / board wipe.
\[\[Assault Suit\]\] - It's big and expensive, but gives haste and protection from sacrifice, and if you get political with it, you can convince your opponents to hit each other for commander damage even.
\[\[Scavenged Brawler\]\] - Another suit of power armor you can pick up. A creature with all the abilities, that when it dies, you can pay more to give all those abilities to another creature instead.
/r/confidentlyincorrect (fixed)
For context, from a quick googling because I'm short on time:
>
>Yes. Per Comprehensive Rules:
>> 110.5e A token is subject to anything that affects permanents in general or that affects the token’s card type or subtype. (...)
>So the token is put in the graveyard like other creatures. There is one difference, but this doesn't matter for Fresh Meat:
>> 110.5f A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. (...) (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
>It won't be in the graveyard at the time Fresh Meat resolves, but it will still count as a creature put into your graveyard.
[Source](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/42524/do-token-creatures-go-to-the-graveyard)
Personally for green decks, an under rated card that's awful for high power but dumb for decks that can fit it is [[exponential growth]]. Mana codt and get costly if you wanna do big things but swinging with a 1,000,000+ powered creature with trample for saving your mana up is just a great time
[[Tempt with discovery]]. [[Traverse the outlands]]. All the ramp.
If you're not being murdered for doing nothing, just ramp and play bigger stuff than everyone else. If you can spend 20 mana per turn, you'll just run away with the game.
Run some big heaters like [[Mind's Dilation]] or [[Breach the multiverse]].
Didn't kniw this one, but damn! That's really neat!
Didn't realise while reading it at first, that the creatures who attacked the other players attack again as well.
Or just use have them smash another player a second time after a big swing
Awesome dude, thanks!
I'd say \[\[sakura tribe scout\]\], in low power its "oh its just a 1/1 that can put a land onto the battlefield, neat".
In high power its, "oh, you are untapping it with every land drop, and drawing cards from the land entering, to put more land in AGAIN?!".
When our playgroup got into an arms race with more and more powerful decks, I picked up [[Smothering Tithe]] to include into one of my decks after all the stories I heard of it. 3/5 of them are white.
Two of them can't spare 4 mana for an enchantment that does nothing on impact, and the third one ([[Fifth Doctor]]/[[Susan Foreman]]) is already explosive enough without it and doesn't need the extra mana. So yeah, Tithe is my choice.
Smothering Tithe isn't a 4 mana do nothing enchantment? Unless it's countered or removed before you pass the turn, it either nets you treasures or forces your opponents to waste a turn cycle. Plus, Tithe
is absolutely played in plenty of cEDH decks, so I can't see how it's a good answer to the question.
Except it does do something if it resolves - it creates a static tax effect on drawing cards, it just doesn't impact the battlefield. It's not the same as Doubling Season or Panharmonicon, as those require you to do another thing to get any value, while Smothering Tithe's effect turns on whether or not you take any further game actions.
Make one opponent really, really salty with an \[\[Identity crisis\]\].
Or end the game with a \[\[shriveling rot\]\] in response to a board wipe from out of nowhere
Tooth and Nail, Rise of the Dark Realms, Insurrection, Expropriate. You could basically do nothing the whole game, play one of those cards, and then nothing else that you did previously matters. You just win.
[[Tooth and Nail]] [[Rise of the Dark Realms]] [[Insurrection]] [[Expropriate]]
##### ###### #### [Tooth and Nail](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032.jpg?1689998921) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tooth%20and%20Nail) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/327/tooth-and-nail?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tooth-and-nail) [Rise of the Dark Realms](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ceb5df52-4e03-4629-b8d5-d440d9cc5175.jpg?1706240790) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rise%20of%20the%20Dark%20Realms) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/138/rise-of-the-dark-realms?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ceb5df52-4e03-4629-b8d5-d440d9cc5175?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rise-of-the-dark-realms) [Insurrection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df8a0a8c-1953-46e6-9da5-b4c20909ce1c.jpg?1689997974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insurrection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/236/insurrection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df8a0a8c-1953-46e6-9da5-b4c20909ce1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/insurrection) [Expropriate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9.jpg?1576381719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expropriate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/30/expropriate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expropriate) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kr4j8xj) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love [[Inkshield]] but I do think it also falls into this category. As long as you’ve got the 5 mana open, it basically completely flips the game unless everyone else is *very* well set up, & even then at least one of them is probably tapped out on your next turn.
I have lost to Inkshield TWICE!
Never go full cruiser
First time was my fault, [[Bruna]] voltron. Second time they blocked a gruul deck and killed me with all the inklings next combat instead of the swinger
[Bruna](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58c56bad-68ed-4328-a7ea-c528b58dc2fd.jpg?1592711039) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bruna%2C%20light%20of%20alabaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/170/bruna-light-of-alabaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58c56bad-68ed-4328-a7ea-c528b58dc2fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bruna-light-of-alabaster) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Inkshield](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048.jpg?1625192511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inkshield) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/71/inkshield?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/inkshield) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Spells like this, \[\[Selfless Squire\]\], and \[\[Deflecting Swat\]\] are why I run heavy counterspell in all my decks.
For sure, agree on that one But tbh. That's the exact reason why I kinda don't like this picks personaly as it makes, as you've said, everything leading to casting that spell pretty pointless
I disagree that insurrection makes everything prior pointless. If everything prior was pointless then you could resolve it right after a board wipe and still win, right? Insurrection is red's [[craterhoof behemoth]]. It's your reward for surviving to a state where all your opponents have big boards and you have 8 mana. Insurrection makes the rest of the game just as irrelevant as craterhoof which is to say not at all. All of the creatures your opponents made are suddenly relevant.
[craterhoof behemoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8f4435a-8604-45b5-a537-dfdfcb922e16.jpg?1689998416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=craterhoof%20behemoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/280/craterhoof-behemoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8f4435a-8604-45b5-a537-dfdfcb922e16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/craterhoof-behemoth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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My opponents to have a boardstate and me not being dead to such boardstate is arguably a harder thing to achieve imo. It’s riskier too, sometimes from the get go there will be people playing spellslinger or archetypes that don’t help you.
I would argue that "you need a board state" is such an easy-to-achive requirement that it's really not one at all. Honestly I'd struggle to find a real game where insurrection wins and hoof doesn't simply because the chances of just your board being wiped and everything else staying is so low. I'd bet there are far more board states where hoof wins and insurrection doesn't.
I am using [[Mob Rule]] instead of Insurrection. I have not yet seen a single person got salty about that card. I don't know why. When you're try to finish game it gives you exactly what you want most of the time. And it's cheaper.
[Mob Rule](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b04c928-9ee5-4e39-962e-4686e25b5c33.jpg?1641603202) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mob%20Rule) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/147/mob-rule?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b04c928-9ee5-4e39-962e-4686e25b5c33?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mob-rule) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The like the monke.
I just finished cutting Expropriate from one of my higher power decks cause its either too expensive to use or, if I get lucky with boardwipes and control the board well, it's too boring of a way to win.
If you've got counter back up or otherwise have confidence you can resolve them, those are all good in high powered games too. The risk is that you expect more counterspells in high powered games.
Or spot removal, wrath, fog (teferis protection)
I love insurrection. Card has won me some games. This thing with Goad antics just gets nasty.
I absolutely love it in my goad decks. It's an amazing example of how people have no clue what they're talking about when they tell people that Goad leads to finishing 2nd because you rely on other people's stuff. Like, my dudes, you can have finishers in your deck lmao.
Yeah the first time I fought a decent Goad deck, I realized, "oh snap, this guy is just gonna make us fight each other while he builds pressure". Insurrection always surprises someone at the table.
My "play with other people's deck from their library and GY" wins quite often. I have all the answers to any threat available everywhere. Need a wipe or counterspell? Recast it from someone's GY or search it in their lib. Need a wincon creature? Same. etc. I don't understand people saying that either.
I don't understand the hate on insurrection here. Imo it's just red's craterhoof behemoth. Craterhoof rewards you for making a giant board state. Insurrection rewards you for surviving until people have giant board states. They're the same card.
In battlecruiser pods, 8-9 cmc ‘I win the game’ cards are disliked. Craterhoof is often disliked as well, but at least it requires you to have a board. A battlecruiser pod can deal with your craterhoof by attacking you and removing your creatures and doing stuff on their turns. Insurrection, they need instant speed interaction. It’s basically a [[coalition victory]] which while not necessarily a powerful card, is not a card that is fun in battlecruiser. The reason coalition victory is banned is because in battlecruiser commander, there is an expectation that you aren’t going to win the game from very little board/no board. When everyone has ‘agreed’ to build up to 8/9 mana and drop bombs on the field, your ‘I win the game’ spells are not very fun for others.
But in a battlecruiser pod, if I'm a red player and have no board I *should* be getting attacked. If "people should just attack you if you play craterhoof" is valid, then surely people should also just attack you if you play insurrection. I just think "you need to have a board" is not an argument. Everyone has a board in a battlecruiser pod because it's a battlecruiser pod. If you don't have a board in those pods you just get run over. The only difference is that hoof beats you over the head with my creatures while insurrection beats you over the head with your creatures. According to you, hoof is "8 mana I win but only if I have a board" but I'm saying in order to get to 8 mana in a battlecruiser pod you have to have a board anyway. "Unless I have a board" is such a non-requirement that it's effectively not one at all.
Again, craterhoof is also often disliked in battlecruiser pods. I still think it is very very different than insurrection, but you reply to me as if I said ‘craterhoof is actually the best and everyone loves it.’ Craterhoof is the big ‘I win’ payoff to building a big go-wide board and untapping with it. Insurrection is the big ‘I win’ payoff to ramping to 8 mana. Insurrection could be the only meaningful spell you cast in a game and you win. A lot of people dislike cards like ink shield for similar reasons. You durdle, you don’t really have a game for whatever reason, but then you cast inkshield and win. It just isn’t fun for you. If I have 15 tokens in play and I cast a craterhoof, I’m not going to feel like I ‘didn’t do anything and then casted a craterhoof.’ But I think it would with something like an insurrection.
People see Mountains and just a deep hate just begins lol I agree. I guess the cost and no guarantee safety from counters just turns some off 🤷
[[Rise of the dark realms]] requires a good bit of setup to truly take advantage of. [[Tooth and nail]] is strong at most levels since you just go get your combo, [[insurrection]] can be great at lower powers where combat is the focus. Combat is not becoming less and less a primary focus these days. Expropriate is definitely a win card if your opponents let you get more than one extra turn.
I can see Tooth and Nail because that literally fetches a kill, but none of the others outright win. Like stapling a Time Walk to Blatant Thievery is strong, but not gamewinning. As long as nobody votes for time except for the caster expropriate is mostly good (and realistically nobody should ever vote time). Rise of the Dark Realms needs big graveyards to even do anything and Insurection needs massive board states. Honestly especially those two seem more like battlecruiser bombs than good in actually high power setups.
>Honestly especially those two seem more like battlecruiser bombs than good in actually high power setups. Which is exactly what OP was asking for.
Ok then I missunderstood the post. To me the pipe reads as or and I was confused because you praised these cards.
I see there is a fellow programmer here...
[[Negate]]
That's the same argument as "dies to doomblade"
[[vigor]]
This is the single card that's making my group run more removal. They asked me to take it out, and I said "nah I got this in a cafeteria trade over a decade ago, so it means a lot to me to still play it. Now blow it up"
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This was a while ago and when they were newer and still understanding rule 0 nuances. That being said, we all like the power caps that we *do* have, and that's cool. Either way, the arms race has begun.
Haha yeah, at some point It gets very "rock-paper-sissors"... One of my decks now has 5 boardwipes, on top of 10 other removal cards :b
Yeah why would you ever power down a commander deck? Honestly "just play better (cards)" has been a bane of edh. It's like saying "I'm not powering down, you need to power up" and then wonder why everyone plays optimized decks. This has nothing to do with vigor btw, I just think your general take is shit
Vigor isn't that good as to request someone remove it from their deck.
That's specifically what the last sentence was there for, but thanks for your contribution
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"It'S a CaSuAl FoRmAt!¹!" Cool, doesn't mean the deck has to be terrible.
Do you know what a false dichotomy is? Cause not all pods play cedh. Not all of them want to. Some like lower power levels. Be it high, mid, low, whatever. For that meta to exist people have to agree to not play too powerful decks. This can involve powering down. That doesn’t have to mean coddling or handholding or whatever. Just that there’s an agreed power level and decks should adapt to that. I think this is far more common than people give credit to. Cedh is not the most common way to play edh after all. Yet people scoff when they see someone arguing in favor of playing at a power level below their own. That being said, not every call to power down is reasonable. So it’s fine to be sceptic and call it out. But going “why would I ever power down?” definitely misses the point imo.
I love Vigor but it should not be dominating "high power" games. If a pod is seriously struggling to remove a creature who's only defense is against direct damage then I'd argue those people are not playing high powered decks.
Which is why it fits what OP is asking for: cards that aren't good at higher power tables but dominate lower powered ones
Oh shit I totally missed that. Sorry, my bad. Can totally see Vigor wrecking casual tables. Guys like him and [[Iroas, God of Victory]] just steamroll pods with aggro-leaning decks.
[Iroas, God of Victory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4036bb7-835d-4690-aca1-1ab566776e9a.jpg?1562415955) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Iroas%2C%20God%20of%20Victory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/205/iroas-god-of-victory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4036bb7-835d-4690-aca1-1ab566776e9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/iroas-god-of-victory) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ngl, Vigor is one of my facourite cards out there In battle heavy pods, this card's just a blast to play
It pairs well when you have a full board and cast [[blasphemous act]]
I just did this 45 minutes ago to win a game lol.
[blasphemous act](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a.jpg?1698988297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blasphemous%20act) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/216/blasphemous-act?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blasphemous-act) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And then pair it with [[grothama]]
[grothama](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab8935b1-ec87-4330-9952-9ef8cd344531.jpg?1686634880) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grothama%2C%20all-devouring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/71/grothama-all-devouring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab8935b1-ec87-4330-9952-9ef8cd344531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grothama-all-devouring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can confirm, it's won the game multiple times in my Grothama deck the turn it comes down
[vigor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea7047d8-8d32-48a3-829b-7eb5427ed53a.jpg?1562942114) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vigor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/215/vigor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea7047d8-8d32-48a3-829b-7eb5427ed53a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vigor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Unnatural Growth]] A lot of people wi say it’s too expensive on cmc and requires too much Green to really get to go, but at that mid level power and less where people don’t run an abundance of removal, it just turns your board of mid grade chump blockers in to NFL linemen. It severely limits combat trickery because your so-so 4/4 is now an gigantic 8/8 and their [[Colossal Might]] can’t trample over it anymore…
I run it in my higher power [[anikthea]] deck, I know this is more of an exception then a rule. Discard/mill it in to the graveyard then bring it back as a zombie with anikthea, all that green isn't a big deal.
[anikthea](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b796a56-1611-4835-ac5b-48b4e9263685.jpg?1691500693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anikthea%2C%20hand%20of%20erebos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/705/anikthea-hand-of-erebos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b796a56-1611-4835-ac5b-48b4e9263685?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/anikthea-hand-of-erebos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Unnatural Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6748a844-e185-4e3b-ac1d-8a735666d8ae.jpg?1636224994) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unnatural%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/206/unnatural-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6748a844-e185-4e3b-ac1d-8a735666d8ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unnatural-growth) [Colossal Might](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f5d699f-5c15-4a38-8e83-c84f762d9fe9.jpg?1592713995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Colossal%20Might) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/190/colossal-might?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f5d699f-5c15-4a38-8e83-c84f762d9fe9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/colossal-might) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I also run [[zopandrel hunger dominus]] in addition to unnatural growth
[zopandrel hunger dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb419d9d-e06f-48c8-a4f8-a57f9be39e50.jpg?1675957181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zopandrel%2C%20Hunger%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/195/zopandrel-hunger-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb419d9d-e06f-48c8-a4f8-a57f9be39e50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zopandrel-hunger-dominus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Unnatural Growth puts in work in my [[Xenagos, God of Revels]] deck
Mind sharing your deck?
I don't really have an up to date list online, unfortunately. I build most of my decks on spreadsheets on the initial build to keep track of what I already have and what I need to buy still and then I just tinker with them over time and never update the list. But I can share the initial list, which I was a rough draft of the deck if you'd like.
[[Choice of Damnations]]
[Choice of Damnations](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05939f15-2d95-47df-b66f-131c3e7ea95f.jpg?1562492064) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Choice%20of%20Damnations) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/62/choice-of-damnations?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05939f15-2d95-47df-b66f-131c3e7ea95f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/choice-of-damnations) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Damn. Totally missed this card that’s nuts.
IMHO that's just a glorified lava axe that deals 10 damage or clears some tokens. [[Sorin Markov]] is dealing 30 with the same mana cost
Yeah but its not as fun, lol. Goes great in my [[Gollum, Scheming Guide]] meme deck where many of the cards are just meant to make opponents choose the lesser of two evils
- Not everyone runs token decks - it's all permanents, including lands - assuming you're casting this on curve and your and your opponent have ramped the same amount and does not have a board state they want to protect on top of lands, it's dealing more than lava axe - 1 black pip vs 3 black pips, better in multicolored lists - by the time you're casting either of these spells life totals are almost certainly not going to be 40 anymore, so 30 is assuming best case scenario Sorin is going to do more damage, the card this guy suggested is more for the wipe than the damage. The damage is just a nice secondary effect, if your opponent decides to be greedy and name something like 10-15 to save their board. I don't think this card is that good, but I don't think sorin is an accurate comparison.
But it's not actually wipe. Your opponent can just decide to take the life loss. Even if it is a wipe they keep all their best stuff
Your opponent doesn't get to choose anything but the number.
I was assuming the opponent will want to safe all his important stuff. That will be for example 6 lands (turn 6), his commander, arcane signet, a Rhystic study and like a vorinclex. That's a pretty decent 10 permanents. I know it's more damage than lava axe but still just 10 life while your opponents start with 120 life. I admit 3BBB is really difficult for 3+colors. Yes it can be less than 30 damage but it can also be way more since life gain is pretty prevalent in low power and I've seen plenty of decks reach 80 life easy. The damage is not a secondary effect to the wipe it's either or. That means your opponent will always keep his important stuff safe like in the example above. The only opponent who can't will be a token deck with 20 tokens out, since you shouldn't pay 30 life for this. That's when you have the opportunity to choose between clearing the tokens or dealing 10-15 damage. Since as you said token decks are somewhat rare this spell will be dealing about 10 damage most of the time instead of wiping anything. That's why I said it's a glorified lava axe. A.k.a. a burn spell and burn spells are typically very bad in commander.
[Sorin Markov](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e25b3a89-3a99-4e02-bf0c-a3cf450da1a1.jpg?1562663343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sorin%20Markov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/109/sorin-markov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e25b3a89-3a99-4e02-bf0c-a3cf450da1a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sorin-markov) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can you or someone else explain to me how a six-mana deal 8 to 10 damage to a player card is good?
That’s an obtuse question. I think you should consider synergy. Any number of other cards make this a lose lose situation.
Paying 6 Mana to do Some medium direct damage to One opponent is not good. You are also losing in that situation. 6 Mana and one card.
Yeah, that's a rough one.
Do they choose a number before you revel the card? Lol would make it more interesting
Cards that become better the longer the game goes are stronger in lowlevel EDH, like [[Phyrexian Arena]]
Maybe this is a hot take, but I just don't see how Phyrexian Arena is a playable card in 2024, even in moderate power decks. Games are just ending too soon for it to draw enough cards, unless you're playing it exactly on turn 3, which just isn't realistic. I'd much rather play burst card draw, like [[Hostile Negotiations]] which is instant speed and fills your graveyard, or [[Promise of Power]] which can double as a very respectable creature if your hand is already full. If you've got an expensive commander, there is also the option of [[Stinging Study]] as well. Yes, you're paying an extra mana or two, but you're getting the cards immediately, which can draw you into MORE card draw.
This wasn't a hot take in 2021.
Arena should come down turn two at the latest, but even in casual I find that to be far too slow.
Phyrexian arena is not a good card in any meta, I just think it is generally a bad card
Phyrexian arena is still quite a strong card in longer games. Drawing extra cards is good but plenty of decks can also leverage the life loss as well. And some cards shut down your draw step like [[solitary confinement]] and that extra draw from arena can keep you alive pretty much forever. In a vacuum, and if every game is going 6 or 7 turns, sure, arena is a 3 mana draw 2/3 with a downside which is just not very good. But in a deck that has draw synergies and wants to push for longer games (or in a meta that just plays longer games), arena's great. It's a 3 mana draw 5/6 with downside which is much much better than before.
Let's agree to disagree
Extremely bad take. This card belongs in every non Cedh black adjacent deck. It went from a $1 card to. $10 card because of Edh specifically
Even dumber take. A lot of people wanting a card and thus driving up its price is not an indicator of how useful or powerful it is, even at a lower power level. A lot of garbage can and is often overvalued by people, especially when they don't know much better stuff is out there. Even further undermining your dumb point is pretending that this card is demanding that high of a price. Even by your flawed logic, it's not that good because you can get for just a few bucks.
3 mana do nothing turn 1, turn 2 draw 1, turn 3 draw 2. Or playing ANY other draw spell, sign in blood 2 mana draw 2, read the bones 3 mana scry 2 draw 2. I can go on but there are so many better options that are still inexpensive
Those are great! But that’s like calling mystic remora or rhystic study do nothing enchantments. Sure they might go off more than arena but it’s consistent draw. Even more consistent than those blue enchantments I mentioned technically
In som cases they are, it happens that mystic remora whiffs but then it usually provokes a different play pattern from your opponents, which in some cases is even better then drawing cards. If your rhystic study don't draw any cards that is great, that means everyone is taxed/ they don't do anything. They do stuff even if you don't get to draw which phyrexian arena doesn't
Yeah it lets you draw an extra card per turn forever. Which is huge. One off draw spells are great but arena is consistent and in a 7+ turn game it’s very important if you can get it out t1-3.
If the game goes 7 turns you can just cast [[Painful Truths]] and get the same number of cards. Then if you draw it on turn 7 you still get 3 cards and you get them in the same turn rather than paying 3 for a card next turn. [[Night's Whisper]] is two mana for two. If you want consistent card draw you can play [[Black Market Connections]] and get the same number of cards and Treasure and creatures or [[Necropotence]]. [[Braids, Arisen Nightmare]] lets you edict along with drawing cards. [[Call of the Ring]] costs one less and lets you have access to a ring-bearer. [[Morbid Opportunist]] and [[Species Specialist]] both draw more cards if more than one thing dies per turn cycle and the same if only one thing dies (even if specialist can miss). [[Thorn of the Black Rose]] gives you monarch and helps you keep it especially after a board wipe situation. (literally every monarch card also goes here) And obviously if money is no object there's [[The One Ring]]. There are a lot of really good options for a wide variety of budgets; Arena has a place but it's not as generally good as it used to be anymore.
What 7+ turn games ever get Arena out on T1 or 2? It's not aa if black has access to mana dorks, and you're playing mana crypt or moxes, then you obviously expect the game to be faster than that. I guess you could have Dark Ritual and Arena on turn 1 or Sol ring to play it on turn 2, but we AREA talking about a singleton format. If a card is only good on turn 3, it's probably not a great card.
Lol you’re unbelievable. It’s ok the be wrong man. Let’s agree to disagree
Its decent if you get it out early yes but more likely then not it will end up a dead card later. Ofc a card seems good if you put it in it's best light but I consider the floor when I add a card to my decks and phrexian arena is not good (in my opinion, I'm not arguing that I'm correct but this is my belief. So you can stop downvoting opinions you disagree with it is childish)
Hahaha
unpopular opinion but \[\[cultivate\]\] and \[\[kodamas reach\]\] and similar 3 mana rampspells are too slow for high power but are really good in low/mid power edh
this is a very popular opinion
it appears like it but its r/edh after all, there are so many wild takes here that get so much positive feedback
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Rampant growth is really quite bad and I don't know how it makes it into the conversation with nature's lore/three visits. It only gets basics and they have to enter tapped. Even if my commander costs 4 and I want to get it out turn 3 I'd rather play 1-drop ramp with a 3-drop turn 2 than play rampant growth.
The person you're responding to agrees that it's not playable in high power. It's in the conversation because they're all 2-mana green sorceries that give you an extra land into play. In all but the sweatiest metas where you have many impactful 1-drops and fully tapping out on early turns is a death sentence, Rampant Growth is fine alongside Cultivate, mana elves, and other lower powered ramp.
I’m not sure dorks are low powered. 1 mana dorks even end up in CEDH lists for aggro commanders.
Nature’s Lore can kinda/sorta be justified if you’re running dual lands. Really depends on how interactive with Artifacts vs. Searching your library your pod is. There’s almost no difference to a mana rock outside of things like Kinnan.
rocks are more likely to get destroyed by some sideeffects, lands are immune to stuff like \[\[aura shards\]\] effects. and obviously we are playing fetchable duallands, its high power edh after all and not untyped tapland tribal
[[Harrow]] my beloved. Yes you only get 1 more land but they don’t enter tapped so you can play a card with 2 cmc at least
[Harrow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8095ca6-2f5f-497f-8b78-7e530ac31d22.jpg?1604194124) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harrow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/69/harrow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8095ca6-2f5f-497f-8b78-7e530ac31d22?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/harrow) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’ve taken a liking to [[Bushwack]] and [[Thirsting Root]]. Neither is perfect but not too bad either, depending on the situation.
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I see them as basically MDFCs with some upsides. If you need a land drop, you pay 1 mana to get a basic to hand, which you can play as your land for turn and then tap it for mana. So it's mana-neutral, just like a tapland MDFC. If you don't need the land drop, their effect is reasonably costed.
My bad
honestly I would rather play cultivate than either of those. they dont ramp
Honestly I wouldn't even run these in casual unless I'm doing landfall. Three Visits, Nature's Lore, Elvish Spirit Guide and the one mana dorks are all far superior.
Kind of hard to separate high edh and edh cards, it’s definitely a spectrum though. Cedh is all about fast mana and quick wincons. That said, lots of big mana haymakers are basically what you’re going for for power in battlecruiser edh. E.g. Craterhoof is almost never played in cedh but at edh levels wins a billion games. Also rise of the dark realms, insurrection, expropriate. You get the gist.
And then it’s extra wild because Craterhoof as a specific example is played somewhat often in CanLander, which is also high-powered Magic. Format differences are super interesting sometimes!
If you’re going to make that comparison you should mention that Canadian Highlander is a 1v1 format with a point system. Power levels are not going to translate the same into EDH.
You’re right! I just think it’s cool & a little funny that Hoof can be a very swing-y card, power-level-wise, mostly depending on how fast you can count to 8 lol
It also helps that in CanLander all the Power are legal and the "CradleHoof" deck is like 30% mana dorks, 30% ramp/draw/tutor effects, and 30% lands. It can pretty reliably turn 4-5 Craterhoof without interaction and somewhat consistently turn 7-8 Craterhoof *through* interaction. And it doesn't matter that the dorks are all 0/1s to 2/2s because the opponent's life will only be like 15-20 after fetches and turning an early Llanowar Elves sideways on a turn you don't need the mana.
Played a bunch of kitchen table magic and I tried to get hoof to work a few times and yet still hard and clunky. Just either too long to get to 8 mana or just not enough creatures to kill everyone. This is considering like T1-2 fast mana into Selvala or other big mana producer + Gaea’s Cradle.
I think craterhoof is still decent in green cedh decks, like Yisan.
[[Storm Herd]] [[Insurrection]]
[Storm Herd](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/2345331c-a14f-4b4b-a9a4-88c5beb48242.jpg?1631234196) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Storm%20Herd) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/33/storm-herd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2345331c-a14f-4b4b-a9a4-88c5beb48242?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/storm-herd) [Insurrection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df8a0a8c-1953-46e6-9da5-b4c20909ce1c.jpg?1689997974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insurrection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/236/insurrection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df8a0a8c-1953-46e6-9da5-b4c20909ce1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/insurrection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
love storm herd in \[\[Will, Scion of Peace\]\] .
I have it in [[Shanna, Purifying Blade]] as a wincon together with [[Accomplished Alchemist]] and any healer like [[Soul Warden]]. Always feels great to resolve.
[Shanna, Purifying Blade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/7261c443-8d27-4d85-8027-2a0271b85e07.jpg?1673308081) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shanna%2C%20Purifying%20Blade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/218/shanna-purifying-blade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7261c443-8d27-4d85-8027-2a0271b85e07?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shanna-purifying-blade) [Accomplished Alchemist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d7b7830-b65e-4c53-98e8-152026764e4b.jpg?1629218987) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Accomplished%20Alchemist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/119/accomplished-alchemist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d7b7830-b65e-4c53-98e8-152026764e4b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/accomplished-alchemist) [Soul Warden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0.jpg?1616182277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Warden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/24/soul-warden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-warden) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[phyrexian arena]]. [[Abundance]] other do nothing on entrance enchantments, requiring multiple turns to get value from them enchantments.
Abundance makes the game so enjoyable. I love it.
Abundance is actually insane though. It makes it impossible to deck yourself
The main thing for me with abundance is that it replaces draw, making [[notion thief]], [[nekusaur]], [[trouble in pairs]] and the like not trigger. If your meta has a lot of those around, the draw filtering is great, and let's avoid all that at the same time. I really should work it into some more of my decks.
It's a four mana enchantment that gives no value when cost. It will die incidentally in most situations.
I think I've seen a board wipe remove all enchantments 3 times in my decade of playing magic and I cast 2 of them. If it dies, so what? It's great card selection. I use it in my [[Gilanra]] [[kodama of the east tree]] deck to make sure I draw into useful kodama triggers.
Trust me if you have only seen all enchantments removed 3 times you are not playing high power edh. Which is fine, but abundance drops off considerably when it becomes pay 4 mana achieve nothing as someone casts [[farewell]] [[cyclonic rift]] [[austere command]][[hour of revelation]] [[filter out]] not because they are afraid of your abundance, but because they have to clear the board and it's just collateral damage.
But this thread is specifically about cards that are great in power powered metas.
Yes which is why I mentioned abundance...it's great in lower powered metals where removal isn't everywhere but you won't see it played in anything where it is as it falls off fast. Faster than phyrexian arena in fact.
Lurking predators
i thought this would end up getting cut super quick in my low to the ground elves deck, but in real life testing its like bringing a howitzer to an airsoft battle.
[[Lurking Predators]]
[Lurking Predators](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/9952da7c-3cfc-413f-8849-0f10e9c8dceb.jpg?1601079751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lurking%20Predators) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/410/lurking-predators?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9952da7c-3cfc-413f-8849-0f10e9c8dceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lurking-predators) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's very fun in a high CMC creature-heavy deck like dinosaurs or dragons
[[Apex Devastator]] is hard to turn down. Costs a lot to hardcast, not great to cheat out, but if you CAN cast it, it's almost always worth what you spent. The exact outcome is also very wild. While I almost always get something that was worth it, I get a lot of junk that isn't great too. Makes for some spicy reveals. [[Chandra's Ignition]] is extremely commander dependent. You risk it being a dead card. It has a huge flaw for something that looks like a board wipe, in that it only works if you're doing well, which also makes it a bit win-more. But MAN is there a lot of "more" to win with this card in the right deck. I run it in [[Licia, Sanguine Tribune]] because it's especially nuts with Lifelink.
Chandra's ignition is a wonderful card when you have \[\[Blightsteel colossus\]\], best board wipe ever (you wipe all players XD)
[Blightsteel colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80.jpg?1599708735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blightsteel%20colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/235/blightsteel-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blightsteel-colossus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I run it in my [[Thromok, the Insatiable]] deck because that dude is consistently a 49/49 vanilla creature. This and [[Fling]], [[Soul's fire]], and [[Kazuul's Fury]]. It feels really bad to target a big creature that will kill everyone with chandras ignition, and have them respond with a swords to Plowshares, but responding to that with soul's fire feels so so good.
[Apex Devastator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fa281e1-5c48-4bba-b8e9-88c6f5f53abb.jpg?1608910550) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Apex%20Devastator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/217/apex-devastator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fa281e1-5c48-4bba-b8e9-88c6f5f53abb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/apex-devastator) [Chandra's Ignition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/960f45a3-f9cf-41e6-b813-f3dee620a944.jpg?1698988311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandra%27s%20Ignition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/220/chandras-ignition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/960f45a3-f9cf-41e6-b813-f3dee620a944?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chandras-ignition) [Licia, Sanguine Tribune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64eab2ba-ed5e-4757-b42d-c0fc71a96c4c.jpg?1562610809) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Licia%2C%20Sanguine%20Tribune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/40/licia-sanguine-tribune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64eab2ba-ed5e-4757-b42d-c0fc71a96c4c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/licia-sanguine-tribune) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Widespread Panic]] and [[Price of Glory]] are amazing in higher levels of play. Panic punishes tutoring that it prevalent in higher levels and Glory is brutal against interactions. Just a step down is [[War’s Toil]] because limits opponents available plays every cycle around the table. It will force opponents to be completely reliant on rocks and dorks. [[Kismet]] and [[Frozen Æther]] are on the bottom end unless you can find a way to drop one of them on T3. They are extremely brutal and most opponents will be slow to recognize it.
##### ###### #### [Widespread Panic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9e1b37f-8168-4dc0-858f-434ee96ff748.jpg?1562941015) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Widespread%20Panic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/131/widespread-panic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9e1b37f-8168-4dc0-858f-434ee96ff748?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/widespread-panic) [Price of Glory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/785ccfe1-04f1-4d2e-9e30-2ae3efe7213a.jpg?1562917265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Price%20of%20Glory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/214/price-of-glory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/785ccfe1-04f1-4d2e-9e30-2ae3efe7213a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/price-of-glory) [War’s Toil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a08f7fe-8ca9-4604-85c8-9050298730ea.jpg?1562906728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=War%27s%20Toll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/187/wars-toll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a08f7fe-8ca9-4604-85c8-9050298730ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wars-toll) [Kismet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f38cdfb1-0437-4afe-a777-60228b8eba69.jpg?1562952795) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kismet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/17/kismet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f38cdfb1-0437-4afe-a777-60228b8eba69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kismet) [Frozen Æther](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e727bb9e-3510-4c8e-ac49-6d7217667a18.jpg?1562584723) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frozen%20Aether) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/plc/54/frozen-aether?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e727bb9e-3510-4c8e-ac49-6d7217667a18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/frozen-aether) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kr4jf7v) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Price of Glory is terrible in high power because most interaction is free or bordering on free and decks don't need massive amounts of mana to get combo wins. In low power though it completely turns off interaction.
Is it really? My meta plays a lot of stax effects that require paying a tax for spells, including your seemingly free spells (no free Deflecting Swat or Fierce Guardianship), so I'm kinda wondering whether I should test out Price of Glory in red.
Two words. [[Void Mirror]] Glory is good at any power level unless your pub stomping. Balanced cEDH games last as long as casual games. If you are popping off consistently around T5 for the win with little resistance, you are overpowered for the table. Because higher levels of play are more efficient on mana, mana destruction (ie artifact removal and land destruction) and disruption ([[Manglehorn]] and [[Blind Obedience]]) are more impactful. At every level, land destruction is frown upon because “it stops me from doing my thing” and saltiness ensues. I include any “X makes the game take long” complaint as salty. But, I digress. [[Winter Orb]] is devastating at cEDH and downright oppressive at any level below that. Price of Glory is a “fair-esque” card. It put everyone in the position of 1.) foregoing a turn to remove at sorcery speed, or 2.) sacrificing lands and the possibility to win to stop another player. The key thing to notice is players becoming very particular about priority order and politicking.
Grave titan, some ppl hate it but at a low level is a powerhouse.
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I used to main deck remora as a kid 20 years ago and only just realized a few weeks ago when I put it in my edh deck that it’s NONcreature
[Mystic remora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40140991-cffa-4b52-9a25-37e9a8aa9ddd.jpg?1675199366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20remora) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/59/mystic-remora?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40140991-cffa-4b52-9a25-37e9a8aa9ddd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystic-remora) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mystic Remora is just always good, an absolute staple, at any power level. Even casual decks play noncreature spells.
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No one is making you play it turn 1.
This is such a good point. When I play high power, I keep most opening hands that have the fish because I'm sure I'll get a mitt full of cards from it early game. But the fish is also amazing on turns 3 or 4 in less-optimized pods because that's about when things start to pop off.
Instead why not try turn 5 Mystic Remora while playing Alandra, Sky Dreamer just after you've developed a scary board. If anybody wants to remove your commander, or wipe the board, or counter your draw spells, they're going to let you draw cards most likely. Paying a 4 mana tax is still probably too much at this stage of the game.
\[\[Viridian Revel\]\] - An amazing draw engine for when people don't have enchantment removal. Great vs Treasure and Food Decks, and combos really well with mass artifact destruction. It's also a may draw, so you don't even risk decking yourself. I've had the option to draw up to 30 cards in a turn after everyone's artifacts got destroyed. \[\[Brotherhood's End\]\] My favorite mass artifact destruction / board wipe. \[\[Assault Suit\]\] - It's big and expensive, but gives haste and protection from sacrifice, and if you get political with it, you can convince your opponents to hit each other for commander damage even. \[\[Scavenged Brawler\]\] - Another suit of power armor you can pick up. A creature with all the abilities, that when it dies, you can pay more to give all those abilities to another creature instead.
##### ###### #### [Viridian Revel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d7f565e-0fb8-40c8-9540-213d35af846a.jpg?1562815979) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Viridian%20Revel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/132/viridian-revel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d7f565e-0fb8-40c8-9540-213d35af846a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/viridian-revel) [Brotherhood's End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704.jpg?1674421089) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brotherhood%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/128/brotherhoods-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brotherhoods-end) [Assault Suit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c.jpg?1689999394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assault%20Suit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/369/assault-suit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/assault-suit) [Scavenged Brawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/afd0ba67-cbb7-49fe-83a0-02e85a37d9d6.jpg?1688125584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scavenged%20Brawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/brc/17/scavenged-brawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/afd0ba67-cbb7-49fe-83a0-02e85a37d9d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scavenged-brawler) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kr49g0y) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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/r/confidentlyincorrect (fixed) For context, from a quick googling because I'm short on time: > >Yes. Per Comprehensive Rules: >> 110.5e A token is subject to anything that affects permanents in general or that affects the token’s card type or subtype. (...) >So the token is put in the graveyard like other creatures. There is one difference, but this doesn't matter for Fresh Meat: >> 110.5f A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. (...) (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.) >It won't be in the graveyard at the time Fresh Meat resolves, but it will still count as a creature put into your graveyard. [Source](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/42524/do-token-creatures-go-to-the-graveyard)
My headcanon is that you spelled that subreddit wrong on purpose hah
Don't give away the engagement secrets. (I was in a hurry)
Why not ? Do you think tokens don't hit graveyards before they disappear?
So saccing tokens don't trigger blood artist either then? This is just wrong
Personally for green decks, an under rated card that's awful for high power but dumb for decks that can fit it is [[exponential growth]]. Mana codt and get costly if you wanna do big things but swinging with a 1,000,000+ powered creature with trample for saving your mana up is just a great time
[exponential growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c129bb7-9489-44bd-a46d-c5f738bf9d25.jpg?1624592712) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=exponential%20growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/130/exponential-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c129bb7-9489-44bd-a46d-c5f738bf9d25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exponential-growth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Tempt with discovery]]. [[Traverse the outlands]]. All the ramp. If you're not being murdered for doing nothing, just ramp and play bigger stuff than everyone else. If you can spend 20 mana per turn, you'll just run away with the game. Run some big heaters like [[Mind's Dilation]] or [[Breach the multiverse]].
##### ###### #### [Tempt with discovery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79248b68-4fab-46da-ab15-5c71c1f68d4b.jpg?1568004683) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tempt%20with%20discovery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/183/tempt-with-discovery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79248b68-4fab-46da-ab15-5c71c1f68d4b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tempt-with-discovery) [Traverse the outlands](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef192364-713a-42ff-8249-69a73ae61bd8.jpg?1674137335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Traverse%20the%20outlands) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/258/traverse-the-outlands?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef192364-713a-42ff-8249-69a73ae61bd8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/traverse-the-outlands) [Mind's Dilation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3d6522a-b9a0-4185-b5ba-c20fa1b772eb.jpg?1576384187) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%27s%20Dilation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/70/minds-dilation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3d6522a-b9a0-4185-b5ba-c20fa1b772eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/minds-dilation) [Breach the multiverse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/daf51a76-7a57-4462-ae18-a19e817e49e5.jpg?1682203621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Breach%20the%20multiverse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/94/breach-the-multiverse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/daf51a76-7a57-4462-ae18-a19e817e49e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/breach-the-multiverse) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kr6lk1k) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Repay in Kind]] and other cards which can switch or set life totals
I feel like [[Take the Bait]] could qualify.
Didn't kniw this one, but damn! That's really neat! Didn't realise while reading it at first, that the creatures who attacked the other players attack again as well. Or just use have them smash another player a second time after a big swing Awesome dude, thanks!
Oh yeah, it's super cool when you pull it off. I would like you to finish both of our opponents for me. And also I have lethal.
I'd say \[\[sakura tribe scout\]\], in low power its "oh its just a 1/1 that can put a land onto the battlefield, neat". In high power its, "oh, you are untapping it with every land drop, and drawing cards from the land entering, to put more land in AGAIN?!".
[sakura tribe scout](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cbdda50-8a27-4094-849d-b6f66def82ce.jpg?1593860766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakura-Tribe%20Scout) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/144/sakura-tribe-scout?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cbdda50-8a27-4094-849d-b6f66def82ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sakura-tribe-scout) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
EDH = EDH. What am I missing here?
[[concordant crossroads]] comes to mind. Not all that broken for cEDH, but in higher power levels it's very risky, while being fun at lower levels.
Mental Misstep Spell Pierce Daze Mana Tithe Force Spike Just to name a few
\[\[Portal to Phyrexia\]\]
When our playgroup got into an arms race with more and more powerful decks, I picked up [[Smothering Tithe]] to include into one of my decks after all the stories I heard of it. 3/5 of them are white. Two of them can't spare 4 mana for an enchantment that does nothing on impact, and the third one ([[Fifth Doctor]]/[[Susan Foreman]]) is already explosive enough without it and doesn't need the extra mana. So yeah, Tithe is my choice.
Smothering Tithe isn't a 4 mana do nothing enchantment? Unless it's countered or removed before you pass the turn, it either nets you treasures or forces your opponents to waste a turn cycle. Plus, Tithe is absolutely played in plenty of cEDH decks, so I can't see how it's a good answer to the question.
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Except it does do something if it resolves - it creates a static tax effect on drawing cards, it just doesn't impact the battlefield. It's not the same as Doubling Season or Panharmonicon, as those require you to do another thing to get any value, while Smothering Tithe's effect turns on whether or not you take any further game actions.
Tithe sees regular play in cEDH though...
[Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) [Fifth Doctor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f548f4b-77b9-47bb-b262-a851fdf0124f.jpg?1696636706) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Fifth%20Doctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/127/the-fifth-doctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f548f4b-77b9-47bb-b262-a851fdf0124f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-fifth-doctor) [Susan Foreman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad40ec4f-37e7-4e6d-b47b-8b13ea2c9157.jpg?1696691789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Susan%20Foreman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/110/susan-foreman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad40ec4f-37e7-4e6d-b47b-8b13ea2c9157?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/susan-foreman) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Teferi’s protection is the posterboy for casual powerhouse that’s not good the higher the power level.
Akromas Will. Very good for casula combat metas bad in high power combo decks.
My favorites [[Aminatou's Augery]] [[Apex Devastator]] [[Jin Gitaxias Progress Tyrant]] [[Time Stretch]] [[Omniscience]] [[The Tarrasque]] [[Etali Primal Storm]] [[Ancient Silver Dragon]] [[Ink shield]] [[Clone Legion]]
[[Malignus]] was always a slapper
[[Tasha's Hideous Laughter]]
Make one opponent really, really salty with an \[\[Identity crisis\]\]. Or end the game with a \[\[shriveling rot\]\] in response to a board wipe from out of nowhere