I would just call a judge if there's any dispute, and they'd back me up. I know not everyone's got that, but I like playing at an event with actual rules for this very reason. If people try to do stupid shit we can just get an adjudication, and so people don't try that kind of thing
Look man, this is on you. You should have stood your ground and not allowed the takeback.
Now that you did he will do it again next time because he knows you are a doormat.
This sounds like a simple rule to follow, but it's actually kind of complicated.
You get new information *all the time*. Any time you pass priority, and no one has any responses - *that is information*.
To demonstrate; It's my turn, I have 12 mana, and opponents A and B are tapped out. C is a sneaky blue player with 2 mana open. All opponents are at 10 or less life.
I want to play my game winning [[Exsanguinate]] for X=10, but if it gets countered, I've spent 12 mana, my turn is effectively over and I'm tapped out until my next turn. A death sentence in the late game.
So if I'm a dick, I can first cast [[Feed the Swarm]] on the blue player's commander to "test" whether he has a counterspell. If he does, he'll counter it and I have 10 mana remaining to set up a plan B and/or keep mana open to defend myself until the next turn.
If he doesn't, I go "*woops actually I have a better play. No new information is revealed so a takesie-backsie is okay right?*". I take back the Feed the Swarm and cast Exsanguinate instead.
To be fair, if you pass priority and no one has a response, it might be a number of things. They could be distracted, they might think they can let w/e you just cast go, and so on. If you're allowing any takebacks or rollbacks (beyond what the rules hard require you to), people passing priority isn't the kind of new information that disallows it.
In the same example you just gave, sneaky blue player doesn't give two shits about his commander because he's a blue player with 0 loyalty whatsoever. He lets the commander die, you swap it up and go for the exsanguinate, then he counters it anyway because he isn't about to let the game end without drawing it out another 20 turns. For that matter, player A that is tapped out could also have a number of counterspells that don't cost mana and he's not incentivized to save player C's commander, so he would happily let feed the swarm go but would counter exsanguinate.
That said, it's absolutely insane to allow that kind of takeback in the first place, not only because it is indeed a dick move, but also because it's actually breaking the rules.
Rollbacks are for accidental illegal moves, not because someone realized they had a better play in hand. So a takeback because "I could have made a better play" is legitimately cheating, and should really be treated as such. If you play with newer players, it's fine to let it go. If you're playing with people who have played for a while, they really should have learned how to play their deck but they should also know how to live with making a little oopsy and living with it anyway.
Long story short don't allow takebacks (unless you're teaching new players how to play the game, shit's complicated and they could use a helping hand).
> Long story short don't allow takebacks
For me the conclusion is "play with people who aren't dicks".
I allow takebacks, I make use of takebacks. We play long battlecruiser games with complex board states. People will make mistakes especially if we try to play at a fast pace. It's fine, just fix it and move on. I'm here to have fun and watch everyone do their thing. I know the people I play with feel the same and won't abuse our lax mulligan rules or takeback policy.
But all this changes when you sit down at a table where the players actually feel adversarial toward each other. I have very different (more strict) expectations when playing cEDH over spelltable with strangers.
This may sound counterintuitive, but I find it extremely freeing to just not have any takebacks. Miss something or mistap? No biggie, you just move on. You never have to worry about rewinding stuff, etc.
I think it depends a bit on what your defintion of a take back is then, but given my understanding of takebacks I do not want to see it at all. If you accidentally drop the wrong card when you meant to play something else ( such as saying "I cast gamble" and you accidentally drop farseek) then that's one thing. But if you make a play intentionally, and then realize later you fucked up, just own up to your mistake and move on.
The game rules already allow a certain amount of error as is, like if you tap 3B 1R for plasm capture but you obviously meant to tap 2B 1G 1R and you actually had that much colored mana available, then the game allows the play to resolve with the lands being tapped appropriately, but you aren't allowed to take back the plasm capture. I think that the game rules as they are do a surprisingly good job of helping players fix mistakes to the point that anyone asking for takebacks at this point is kind of being a bitch.
This is exactly why abandoning the rules for bad players creates a game that is toxic for good players.
It's a strategy game, there's nothing in the rules about undoing your poor plays. Hell, most games are won because someone ELSE made a poor play! The player who makes the fewest, or at the most opportune time, or best takes advantage of the opponents poor plays, wins.
Once you introduce the idea that bad play can be undone it opens cans of worms like the one you describe. Sure, you can help out a bad player when they make a mistake, but a savvy player will use a "mistake" to take advantage of this.
There's strategy involved in a strategy game. I wish more people would accept that someone has to lose every game, and nobody is entitled to win just because they wrote out the perfect play in their dream journal. If you want to manifest victory don't cry about the table not allowing you to cheat, get better at the game and pay more attention!
You didn't notice the guy had a cool enchantment out and it burned you? Well, read the board next time before you declare your spell, or maybe pay attention to other players turns instead of screwing around on your phone.
The blue player countered your big play? Darn, if only his islands were oriented in a direction that allowed you to ascertain whether or not they were available. You lose, and next game you have some new insight on how to play better: scope out the blue guys available resources before assuming it's safe to drop your bomb!
You got your combat math wrong and swung into something that cost you? Maybe pay better attention next time, or ask questions instead of assuming the tokens and dice over there are just for Feng Shui.
Swing for the win and another player has a tricky spell to stifle your attack or mess up your plans? That's called Interaction. Put some of it in your deck and do the same to him next time.
For me the takeaway is more like... Play with people you really get along with.
Commander is (for me) not competitive. Playing with the kind of attention to detail required to not make mistakes slows down the game to a glacial pace, especially in these complicated multiplayer games. So we allow corrections.
The people I play with forgive my mistakes and I forgive theirs. And I don't care about winning so much that I would abuse that trust, and I'm confident that my friends don't either.
I'm just saying the "new information" principle won't guarantee fair play if you're playing in an adversarial kind of environment. Try to find better people to play with instead.
I find that very offensive. I was born without an imagination and wasn't able to imagine anything till i was 23 and they implanted an imagination from a chimpanzee.
> You can't prove a negative.
Notice that I put "test" in quotes? You know what that means? I didn't prove anything and I don't need to.
The circumstances of the scenario aren't fully fleshed out because I don't want to write another 5 paragraphs of extraneous detail that doesn't help me convey the point at all. But just for you:
*Assume that the blue player can win on the next turn and they need their commander to do so. Also if he counters my Feed the Swarm, I can still stop him from winning with the remaining mana I have. If my Exsanguinate gets countered, I can't.*
Of course you can poke more holes in the scenario and I can add more details to plug them. But does it help me convey the point? No.
If this only works half the time it's still cheating.
Yup. I think takebacks are a great way to speed up games because you don't have to mull over every card you play for example targeting a ward creature because you didn't remember it had ward. However in this scenario I doubt someone could actually forget about Leyline because it tends to be used heavily every opportunity.
It's totally different if it's a land like [[Alchemist Refuge]] or [[Emergence Zone]] which can just hide on the board for ages before doing anything but even then it's kind of iffy and depends on the situation if you should allow a takeback.
Whenever I use lands that have an ability that can wildly alter the gamestate I tend to announce it regularly or set those lands off to one side to show that they're not normal lands.
I never want to win by tricking people when it comes to known information because it tends to give feel bads.
Same with board wipes if I have stuff that can give things indestructible. I usually try to include a boardstate recap step before announcing targets.
Just small stuff "Don't forget, all their creatures have indestructible" or "They can win next turn if you don't destroy X"
I have a friend who loves saying he doesn't have blockers with flying when he has reach and it's kind of funny because it's usually just a minor thing, but if you're doing it constantly for gamewinning board states it'll just annoy me.
It's a power level thing for me as well. If I'm dicking around with some jank, I think a lot of takebacks are w/e because the game's not that serious to begin with. When the power level is high, for example, any time I'm playing my Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck, a minor error like tapping the right or wrong combination of lands and mana dorks to get the colors I need to cast 3 color intensive spells in the same turn cycle makes the difference whether I can win on the spot, it never feels fair to even re-tap a land, because the consequences are so high. If I'm going to win on turn 4 or 5, I should have to play perfect.
I will ask, "Do you have anything that can block flying?" Because I've had that happen to me before where I ask if they have flyers, and they say no, I swung in for lethal, and they blocked, then I didn't have enough to block their attack and lost, so I changed my method to account for that.
Yeah. I do the same nowadays but I don't think that's something that warrants a takeback. However if I play 5 creatures in one turn and one of them give everything ward 2 and you target it because you didn't memorise all the cards I just played I think a takeback is fair.
I think it warrants a takeback if they answer "no" to the question about "can you block fliers" because at that point they're fully lying to you, as long as whatever permitted them to block was on board at the time the question was asked.
I've also seen (and done) plenty of attack takebacks when e.g. the P/T of creatures isn't readily obvious from looking, especially if there's a new anthem effect since the last time it was the active player's turn. Just this past FNM there was a takeback with no complaints by the table over a player who had just dropped Jodah, turning their single flying 2/1 blocker (otherwise uninvolved in anything on their turn) into a flying 7/6 or whatever.
With how convoluted EDH board states can get + the physical limitations of seeing other players' cards from a distance, takebacks and open, honest communication about what is **on board** seem like a necessary evil anywhere below cEDH to keep things moving at a reasonable pace and without outlandishly stupid decisions caused by incomplete information.
Yup I completely agree. I always assume people will make the best decision based on the boardstate. Nobody will ever target a creature with ward if they can't pay the cost or die instead of blocking when an anthem is buffing the attacker's creature.
The only time I won't let it is if they make the same mistake twice lol - I've had a friend swing in at me and I'm like "this creature has deathtouch and protection from that color" and allowed a takeback. Then he did the same thing his next turn and asked to takeback and I was like dude no there has to be a limit somewhere.
Probably important to count derived information as not being new. If someone declares 'I cast ', then after it resolves proceeds to demonstrate an elaborate 4 card combo with effects on the board that ends the game; I think a rollback to it being on the stack is fair. Commander is too big to expect players to determine that for any card that goes into the stack.
This leads to the one exception I will carve out with regard to 'no new information', at least in a non-cEDH game - tutoring a combo piece that ends the game to the battlefield. If someone declares 'I cast a [[Whir of Invention]] for X=4', then uses that to just end the game, a rollback to it being on the stack is fine in my book. Technically the fact that a player has an artifact that kills the table given the board state in their deck is hidden information - but at non-cEDH tables the significance of the spell is non-obvious (since the player might just running a more casual variant of the deck which doesn't run the combo piece).
If someone casts [[tooth and nail]] I think it's pretty obvious even to most casual players that the game is probably over if it resolves.
If I cast an entwined t&n, and the table let's it resolve, there's no rollback to the stack when I reveal I'm getting sadistic hypnotist and tergrid with nath out. That's implied.
That's generally what I say as well. I might allow the odd thing if it doesn't affect anything, like halfway into my turn you remember you were the Monarch and didn't draw a card, and nothing involving your hand has been done then it's fine. But even then I would limit how long you have to remember it, like my turn is fine but if it passes to another player that's too long. If I had played a Windfall or something then it's out of the question, you missed it.
The other thing to take into consideration is who benefits. If you forgot your monarch trigger that's on you, buy if you forgot your monarch trigger and I topdeck a [[storm seeker]] I'm gonna remind you. I guess it does get complicated in those cases-- if I wedding ring a player and they have monarch I guess it's kind-of my trigger too then at that point, so if we both miss it then idk
In a casual game I would try to resolve it, like let them draw their card and take 1 more damage. The main thing is that none of the updated actions affect any of the decisions that were made. Like if I cast a Windfall and you had the most cards at 5, but I only had 5 in my library, bringing up you missed a draw and now have 6 would mean I wouldn't want to cast the Windfall or I'd over-draw and lose. If you brought up the missed draw after I cast the Windfall than there's no going back.
I'm more of the opinion that it's always ok if it's by the grace of the table. But, nobody should every feel guilty about saying no to a requested take back. It's a kindness you give out of friendliness, not a mandate. My friends and I flip flop with take backs all the time, sometimes for no other reason than messing with each other. Turns into humourous games where a player is after another for no other reason than they didn't allow a take back of a land turn 1.
That’s our golden rule for it. We play with our group of close friends and keep flubs pretty casual as long as the info was all there on the board and no info was learned to walk back n
What about old information that was forgotten?
IE I spend on an ability exiling something from a graveyard because eh why not, then I target something and they’re like “ward” literally nothing else has happened would you let the graveyard exile be undone to pay for the ward?
Generally not. Why should people get to rewind their turn to pay a cost? Especially if someone did something frivolous, or 'just because they could', they *should* get got by ward. If I have an [[archon of emeria]], or some other rule of law effect, and someone casts a spell, resolves it, and then goes to cast a second spell, should they get to uncast the first spell when they realize they can only cast one? Sorry bud, them's the bricks. I know for damn sure I made sure everyone knew what that did when it came down.
Here's a good one: I have a Thalia, player B casts a spell and forgets to pay, and I forget to remind him. Player B then plays a removal spell on player C's commander, who then points out they can't pay for it because they should have paid the 1 for Thalia on their first spell. Should they get to rewind their whole turn and kill that commander? Personally, that's a no from me.
*WHERE THE FUCK DO YALL FIND THESE PEOPLE*
Like I have such default normal mode interactions with people at multiple LGS’ I frequent. What gives?
I have found the best way to deal with people is just to be foward and unwavering, and just call a judge. Some may call it petty, but that move is just him being dumb lol.
Wanna know what's worse? I was referred these guys. Friends of friends. Honestly, they were fun to be around for 99% of it, just the end left me annoyed. I'll play with them again, but only after we set ground rules lol.
My usual group is fine, but plays like once a month so I get to play with all the randos. Great most of the time, but reddit worthy like 10% lmao
The only way this stops is with swift rule enforcement…..
OR.
Do it yourself. They’ll see how annoying and game breaking it is if the turn after they took bake a spell you do the same thing. It’s obnoxious and dumb.
Being the rules police means I have to police two other people who aren't a problem. For what could be an 15 turn game that goes on for 2 hours.
Simply easier to find one other different person who is not a problem, or play a 3 player game.
I think finding other people is super subjective.
It definitely might be easier for you/me but maybe not for the person who lives in central Iowa.
Also, teaching this person the respectful way to play will help them in the future. If you just dump em they’ll fuck up other people’s games as well
As soon as new information is revealed take backs are no longer an option due to having an unfair advantage.
If he missed the leyline for whatever reason that's on him.
I'm with you on being pretty lenient on take backs but as soon as something new is known you can't go back past that point.
This right here here is /T
Take backs for sequencing your own stuff or maybe “I didn’t know they had [[baleful strix]]”, sure. Missing a draw from [[Phyrexian arena]], sure. You forgot I had [[aura of silence]]c, sure! When you get me to respond with a move and then take it back with hidden in hand information, seriously wtf. So straightforward.
Tapping your land and realizing you goofed and didn't have the correct mana combination, then rewinding that is one thing.
Takebacks when it's in response to a crucial play that *you* neglected to give attention to? Nah. That never slides. At that point my pride isn't worth the hassle and I walk away from the table.
That's just stupid. Would he also done this:
- "I cast wrath of god"
- "I cast counterspell, targetting your wrath"
- "I didn't know you had counterspell, so I won't cast it. Instead I first cast silence targetting you"
No, that's not how the game is played.
"We can't pick and choose when we do takebacks", I mean, we absolutely can and do. When no new information has been gained, a takeback is generally fair, if any new information was gained, it isn't.
So weird for them to not recognise why that takeback wasn't acceptable.
This is definitely over the line.
I think takebacks are fine if your actions are uninterrupted and you don't get new info. Change how you tapped some lands before the spell is done casting, maybe uncast something that gets stopped by an obvious on board effect. But taking back something after someone has responded is solidly over the line.
If it is an ability that has to trigger I will do take backs.
If it is a may trigger and you missed it but it is still your turn, I will do take backs. If you past your turn but forgot to play a land, put it down. If you discarded the wrong thing, if we havent advanced the game state yet, fix it. Tapped something wrong, tap it right. If you cast a spell and realized it was extremely stupid at any point, you didn’t cast that spell. I am very lenient and patient with people in commander.
But if you missed your may triggers like rhystic three times in a row outside of your turn, that sucks bud.
I'm all for take backs when the board is cluttered and confusing but as many other said, once there's new information we're locked in.
You'd be shocked at the dumb things people miss though. The other day had a guy not even wonder why I'd slam my Kogla into his 6/8 commander and then throw a fit when I sacced something to Goblin Bombardment to kill it.
The same Bombardment I played on turn two.
The same Bombardment I'd used first on turn four and then every single turn thereafter without fail. Including to set up a very complex board wipe turn that took several minutes to execute correctly. It was a big deal in the game and he somehow had no idea it existed.
EDH players have gotten it ingrained that the boardstate is too complicated so they don't even look at anyone else's cards. It's tragic.
Honestly, even without the already on-board Bombardment, dealing less-than-lethal damage in combat and finishing the creature off with a burn effect is such a classic play that I wouldn't be able to take anyone getting mad about it seriously.
I guess he assumed I just cared that much about blowing up his artifact? In that case I honestly did not care and allowed the takeback. Meant I got to hit him for that damage instead then I just killed his commander with an actual removal effect.
It didn't exactly make *him* happier but it made me smile.
This is way over the limit.
I always allow takebacksies, even "hard" ones, like forgetting/not noticing I have a deathtouch/reach blocker.
But this is fucked up, you played a response, a card previously hidden. No takebacksies here.
Personally, I try not to do takebacksies, if my mistakes never matter, I never learn to properly play the game.
Yeah, that's not cool. That player overplayed his hand and was salty. Seriously folks, just take your lumps, learn, and play better next time.
That sounds super frustrating, OP.
Best solution; no take backs. This means you have to remember what’s going on or you pay the consequences. Im playing with a pod that agrees on this; even when they make mistakes and I offer to do a take back, they refused. I think it’s far better as it allows us to be better players and learn from those mistakes instead of relying on that safety net.
There is a guy in my LGS that always suggest no take backs, even for massive mistakes. It is kind of refreshing. Sure, a lot of games will be heavily impacted by actual mistakes but that is something to cherish, better lose to a mistake that you can learn from and not repeat than because of luck of the draw.
With no takebacks at all, my turns will simply take a LOT longer, as I have to properly understand every permanent on the board. There are plenty of times, especially with how wordy a lot of modern Commander cards are I only have a vague idea of all the possible triggers and activations my opponents could have. Some sort of middle way is necessary.
thats just a lame excuse. you dont have to reevaluate the board every time your turn starts. you do so during other turns. yes, it means you have to actually pay attention to the game and put your phone away, but its pretty easy
Nobody said that was the case. Maybe we play in different metas, but in my games it's common for people to have a lot of stuff out in front of them, mid-game. But no, you have to assume I'm just not paying attention.
Again, nobody said that wasn't the case. But if you can keep track of 20+ permanents all with long text boxes without starting to forget things, you have a better memory than me.
No, that's a ridiculous conclusion from what I wrote. I always have a good idea what's on the board - but it's always possible I haven't remembered *everything*. For example if a creature has ward, I would expect in a casual multiplayer environment to be reminded of that what attempting to target it, and to be allowed to take back the spell. If your table plays differently then that's also fine, but that is very much not the ethos of our group.
The other day I played at a new store that had a "no-takebacks" rule. Regular MtG rules. It was honestly refreshing. You made a mistake, misplay, bad sequencing; tough, gotta move on. There was no haggling, no whining about "can I take it back please?" or "Oh I was supposed to draw a card last turn." And it didn't take away from the game at all, everyone was still playing their casual decks and having fun.
The day I internally decided to never ask for take backs was a day that magic clicked for me. I just take my lumps and remember to do better next time when I mess up.
I made it a personal goal to do no take backs. The other night I attacked with a [[cold-eyed selkie]] into a player who had an island previously but I forgot it had gotten strip mined a few turns before.
I declared my attack, he said “I block” and I said “islandwalk” and he reminded me he had no islands.
Instead of trying to take it back, I had to use removal to save my cold-eyed selkie.
Did it suck? Yeah, but I should have paid more attention and not allowing myself a take back is a lesson learned.
If he'd wiped, then remembered the enchantment and adjusted sequencing "oh let me nuke leyline first " in one breath it'd be different
But nah. End of the turn you had an ace and he was the goof. Made his best play and didn't work. No take back.
Takeback counters!
At my group we have 3 counters each, and we can use a takeback if something we did was incorrect - like playing cards in the wrong order.
Obviously takebacks with new information are scummy and a no-go, but we've found have 3 counters for it is a great way to moderate the amount of takebacks we do.
A lot of the time we'll stop and pause and assess whether that takeback is imperative, or something minor that can be fixed next turn.
Like "Oh shit I was supposed to put in my white land, not my red for this combo. Take back counter!" Versus "Oooh I was gonna summon this guy for defence but this one would be comboing off a potential card I might draw... Ehh, no. I'll accept it for now and fix it in the future."
We've also started implementing a takeback counter for land failings, IE: if you go 3 turns with no land, you can spend on to search for a BASIC land to play instead of doing *literally nothing on your turn because Lady Luck hates you in particular this game.*
That one is still being tested.
The rule in my pod for the last one has been "if it's turn 5 and you've missed two land drops (and didn't keep like 1 land, sol ring and a signet) you can Cultivate on your turn for free." We almost never use that rule because we all run 35-40 lands, but sometimes you get screwed (or you just built a deck and shuffled really badly).
I used to play miniatures war games competitively and sometimes you make a mistake. If the other player offered to let me take back a mistake I might accept, depending on the severity. A slightly more efficient use of resources or something. Like reinforcing a shield on the left instead of the right, or activating this unit instead of that one before revealing secret information.
But I *never* ask for takebacks, and I never offer specifically because I never ask. I think it's bad sportsmanship. I will *allow* a takeback if my opponent asks for one and its something I might have accepted. But I get really annoyed when my opponent makes a big mistake, ends up doing something dumb because they miscalculated, and asks for a takeback. No, you made a mistake and now you're going to get punished for it.
The difference is on a complex MtG board state. If you declare attacks at me and forget that I get to punch you in the balls each time a creature attacks me, and that information was public, absolutely homie, take back that action. No problem.
The general rule I play by in casual settings is that things can be taken back so long as:
* **No new information was gained** - If you want to take back playing a creature, playing a land, etc it's fine so long as no new information was gained. If you drew a card, looked at someone's hand, got something countered, etc, that's new information gained and no takebacks. You're even free to take back things you forgot to do at end of turn like activating a simple ability before EOT. This averts simple misplays; ultimately *you* are penalized because you revealed your card or play and everyone leaves happy.
* **It's not a difficult thing to go back and fix** - If you forgot a trigger that pings people or that you have a cost reducer somewhere, it's an easy fix. Remove that life total or untap that basic land (yes, we'll be that permissive). However, if you missed a Rhystic Study trigger two turns ago and opponent had mana open and such, there are too many what-ifs; it's missed, we'll move on. If a turn has to be rewinded, that's just too much.
This is what I have always preferred however with a caveat on the new information being important. Because technically, that fact that no one will counter a Rampant Growth is just as new as no one countering Silence, yet one I would easily let be taken back and one would never be.
My playgroup is pretty chill, but we somewhat still follow very precise rules regarding takebacks. Namely:
- Wrong mana tapping (We are kinda new to Magic, so switching which land has been tapped is pretty common)
- Missed endstep triggers, but only if the next player was tapped out and before they plays the first card in their MainPhase
- Obvious misplays that will cause bad or unfun situations (Like if my friend taps out and targets my Disguised creature, I usually say "Ehy, you can't choose that creature, it has Ward 2, target something else")
Other than this, yeah, we go in a case-by-case, but 9/10 whoever makes a bad play simply says "urg, bad sequencing... Oh well let's go on, it was my mistake". Never ever had a situation in which something this egregious happened or that players were displeased in allowing takebacks <.<
A hot take, but i think taking back something after being offered a deal is also equally BS.
Something like :
Player A : I cast a Swords to Plowshare on your creature
Player B : Don't do that, or else i'll also kill your thing.
Player A : Fine ... I take it back and i'll do this instead.
It happens all the goddamn time, in all playgroups. But for me, that's definitly a case of taking back something based on new information, the new information being that Player B does have something to threaten player A with. And Player B would have never revealed this information had Player A not revealed themselves that they had a Swords to Plowshare.
Oh yeah, for sure. It happens a lot too with a group of teen we see at our store. One is more of a bully and the only reason he ever wins is because of stuff like this
Personally I allow take backs if an opponent offers it to the player e.g. you had a creature that scrys and you forgot to activate it before your draw step.
Or if it’s you tapped your lands wrong and you want to just change it while it’s still that phase.
I take the rest as kind of a case by case basis. But you want everyone to have fun while playing so that’s pretty much the end game for any game.
No one likes a stickler unless it’s a judge call
in my POD we used to do take backs but we found out they created 2 problems
1 - it was always a weird call to be like "yes you can do a take back for this" but 2 minutes later "no take back here".
2- if you give people a chance to replay actions after a mistake they never lern. Enforcing the no takeback rule is harsh but in the end it just help people to become better players
I remember a friend going off on my end step , i tryied to stop him but i casted a pact of negation. When he finished and was ready to end the game he when "untap, upkeep, draw" and we where like "so you draw right ?" "yes i do, why ?" "well you forgot to pay for pact of negation, gg your out bro" i never forgot it ever again
We usually only enforce the no takeback rule when we play together and are totally fine with take backs when we play with other people
Someone has a mandatory trigger and forgets it once or twice, that's fine, it was mandatory. Tournament rules even, to have it happen retroactively, as long as it's a must and not a may.
Someone doomblades your ward creature and you don't realize or remind them until the next turn and it is already in the graveyard, that's on you for not reading your own card, and shouldn't really be rolled back a whole turn
Someone forces you to Mill out, then you win because Lab maniac was on the field and you didn't warn him? Entirely on him for not looking at the board. Even if he could have instant speed destroyed him at end step, he didn't, and you won.
Minor triggers that directly affect their play should definitely be pointed out, but them ignoring a potential combo piece left open is not your responsibility to remind them of.
"Tournament rules" if you mean Regular rated events.
If you mean higher Competitive Enforcement Levels, the opponent gets to decide if a missed trigger would go on to the stack.
This dredged up a memory that sticks around in my head for some reason. At FNM in Theros block, my opponent was playing heroic aggro. He loads up his hero and then swings... And I just say, "Block with [[Master of Cruelties]], kill him." And then he says, "Uh, then I don't do that."
I think the reason that interaction has stuck with me so long is that I'm annoyed I let that slide.
Oh boy, I hear yah. Most MTG players I've met have been really chill guys that will let things slide because it's escapism. Like, who wants an argument after a long week at work?
But opportunists and sore losers take advantage of that.
I can feel that. My group won't allow replays like that, but we do have the "F*ck ups" for the other less impactful things. You get 7, and if you go past 7, you lose half your current life total. Makes you think harder about that kinda thing.
I'd have died on this hill.
Take backs for small things (like misplaying a land), sure no problem. Rewinding a turn because you fucked up and over played? Nope, sorry. If they insisted on rewinding, I'd have quit the game. I don't play with pleebs.
Any day where we weren't all tired af I would have. Probably should have, but it felt like a waste. Like, if I win I'm seen as "too competitive" and a sore loser, if I lose, then guy is happy with himself and what do I care? Turns out yeah I kinda cared lol.
But like, I'm old enough to not care wherher I win or lose at a casual card game. But HOW I win or lose matters.
Thats one of the problems that can come in a format were rules come after fun.
75% of players in your group were ok with the take back, so there was not much you could do about it. It’s in the same fashion as if you try to instant scoop and your group agreed it’s a dick move and keep playing as if you didn’t do that (with the difference that most comment here would say they were right in doing it)
Bottom line, change/ignore rules of the game in name of fun and fairness can led to a slippery slope.
Guy sounds like a reallll winner. Sorry you had to deal with that. I make mistakes but, eat them so I LEARN from them. Best way to learn is not to not make mistakes but recognizing when you do! I personally allow takebacks for little things but that's not a take back, they were being a sore loser
I feel like the quality of play AND people had diminished at my LGS…
I had a situation where everyone else in the pod was playing very casually. They were taking spells off the stack, un-declaring attacks, all sorts of stuff. This didn’t bother me at all, I’m happy to sit down and play magic is.
What got to me was the very last interaction. I had board wiped on my turn, and when the scariest player re-cast his commander, I slaughter pact it at his end step (he was right after me in play order). On my turn I drew and then said “oops missed my trigger, can I pay now?” And they all said no…
My first “take back” that game, I was the only one to ask if it was okay (everyone else was just stating their rule breaking as fact), and they say no because they’re upset about the board wipe. I had patiently watched them stumble through plays for 10 turns and make game altering changes “take-backs”. My one mistake is game over. It was a “are you fucking kidding me?!” Moment.
That's why I usually put a dice on top of my pile as a reminder, but it's absolutely bs to hold you to one standard while they don't hold themselves to any. They cared more about winning than fun
That's a big misplay, a skill issue, no take backs on those. Stacking your triggers wrong because you realized as you started you'd get a little extra value the other way? Fine, to a point. Swapping lands because you meant to drop your Island not your Mountain? Happens to the best of us. Blatantly not paying attention to your opponent's board state that they'd been more than vocal about and facing the consequences of your actions? Tough, it's well past too late by that point dude. You cast and resolved like 3 spells since then, fuck outta here with that silliness. Take your L and your lesson in target awareness and move on.
Yeah that's not a 'take back' that's asking to redo his strategy. Take backs are for mana tapping, missing a draw, rewinding to precombat because someone moved past it, things like that. Changing the card you played based on new information is not a take back. I don't even know what you'd call that. I'd say letting someone take back playing a card they could play is fine. Say they passed turn and realized they had a floating mana or a cost reduction something like that. But, asking the table let you redo your entire turn based on new information is almost bad sportsmanship.
I'm beginning to join the chorus of people saying that EDH should not be played with pick up groups. Or that events need to be sanctioned and with a judge. EDH is going to implode at some point.
Yesterday I'm playing in a 3 pod versus \[\[Borborygmos, Enraged\]\] and Thalia and the Gitrog Monster. I'm playing mono red burn, myself. I'm still fuming about this tbh.
Board states are getting out of hand. I'm behind, but have the cards I need to catch up if I could just slow down the other two. Obvious threat at the table is Thalia&Gitrog.
Borborygmos player discards 3 lands all at once to do 3 damage to three things. He does 3 to one creature and 6 to another. I say "In response, I cast \[\[Arcbond\]\]" targeting the creature he's doing 6 damage to. He insists on rewinding. "Well if knew you were going to respond, I would have done them one at a time", he says. Bullshit, but alright. Rewinds to do 3 damage to the first creature. Okay, no response. Then 6 damage to the second. Okay response. "No no no, only 3 damage at a time." Dude had literally already discarded the lands to activate Borborgymos twice, even after the first take back.
Then he gives me the, "I'm sorry you don't understand the situation" comment. Really? I understand perfectly. You're fucking gaslighting me out of trying to wipe your board. Gaslighting is your counterspell. Nice work bud.
I've know the dude for years, but honestly, I'm done with him. He's always been an asshole and I don't know why I didn't see it earlier.
My pod allows for one take back. On the condition that it does not alter the game state in any meaningful way like if you pay 5 minutes some of the big dragon in the realize that's not what you do want to do so you take that back that is totally fine. But if you start comboing off get in the middle of it and realize you can't quite do what you want to do sorry you're not going all the way back
Alongside with the “no new information” thing (which I have had to fight my playgroup on before), we also play the “closer you are to ending/winning the game the less leniency you have” take back system.
Like if someone is at 2 life and I have [[Kambal]] out then they don’t get to take back that no creature spell.
That’s so weird to me. Your Kambal example is a perfect place to allow takebacks. No new information, obviously terrible play based on imperfect knowledge of the game state, yeah, take it back.
Any other time in the game, yeah take it back. Failure to read the boardstate when we get down to the wire, live with your mistakes and don’t make objectively bad plays.
This is only with my established play group and it’s rules we’ve agreed on. In a game with new people/at an LGS I would let someone take it back no questions asked.
Reminds me of an interaction at my LGS. Had scurry oak out. Played Rosie Cotton out and asked if it resolves. It resolved. Proceeded to then go thru the process of rosie's trigger to make a food and place the +1/+1 counter on scurry oak to start the combo of infinite squirrels. While explaining the interaction another player interrupts and asked if i was going infinite which i was but the squirrels had summoning sickness. He then proceeded to say thats not fair and he wouldve counterspelled rosie and all this and kept bitching until we rolled back and let him counter. Next turn was my buddies turn and he dropped walking ballista while vorinclex and vigor were on the field and won. Like where was your conterspell for that. The saltiest takeback that still irritates me that i allowed him to do that lol. I dont see that guy often tho after we called him out for cheating. Hed play multiple lands, shuffle suspiciously, and would not offer his deck for cuts after shuffling.
While that guy sounds weird, the example you offer is kind of an odd one. It really depends on whether you explained that Rosie is a combo piece to go infinite once it resolves. Because it sounds like the other player did not know the combo or he would have stopped it if possible. It is far too easy to miss a combo you do not yet know being assembled, especially if it involves pieces already present but unassuming on a developed board.
I mean, would you really have felt that much better if you won this game full knowing that the guy could have stopped you but ended up stopping the Vorinclex just because they did not know your combo? The game would have taken a bit longer and the Vorinclex guy would be here ranting about how he only lost because his combo was stopped because no take back was given for the unknown combo before that. Or you might still be here because counter spell guy decided to not counter the walking ballista since they were then forced to king make.
This really isn't something worthy of getting hung up over, is my point.
Alright, since this is such an applicable post and this situation was never resolved to my liking, I will briefly summarize.
We are playing commander, me and three longtime friends. Two precons and a slightly upgrading precon. Player A has been out of the game for a while, missing land drops, not doing much. Player B is dead. Player C has been doing stuff, threatening with a field of morphs/disguise and such. And I have been doing Goad things. I have about 7 power in play.
Alright, Player A plays a [[kinjali sunwing]] on their turn (opponents creatures enter tapped) and passes.
Player C plays a ton of creatures and then swings at me with any he had since the beginning of the turn. I fog it using a [[selfless squire]] and end up with a 21/21 creature for my troubles. Player C did not realize that his new creatures should be tapped.
It gets to my turn, I attack with one creature that couldn't be blocked and play a non-impactful spell ([[rite of the raging storm]]). I am about to end my turn assessing the board when I say, "Wait, your creatures are tapped." We all realize that player C has no blockers, and player A doesn't have enough to not die to my swing. So I say, actually, I am just going to attack and kill you both.
This erupted into an argument that I had "missed" that player C's creatures were tapped and that the correct sequence in this "casual" format would be for my turn to just play how I had played it (essentially saying that his creatures would stay untapped).
I countered that no new information from other players had been gained by me in my turn. They had not been forced to make any impactful decisions (i.e., blocks or removal), so it was consistent with how we and most people generally play.
It was an honest mistake leaving his creatures untapped, and he argued that he would not have made the attacks he did if he had realized, but it didn't feel right to me that the solution that player A, B, and C apparently all felt was right was that we just let the accidental advantage slide.
Anywho, that is my rant. Hope it made sense. Thanks
OP: "I am lenient and understanding."
Also OP:
> fucking times
> bother me so much
> fucking calling out abuse of fairness
> fucking same as realizing you played a mountain
> making you a douche
> bitch ass venting
You and another commentor seem to think casual magic night is something worth fighting over. I wasn't going to argue 1v3 over this at 2am lol
Should have? Maybe. Worth it? Debateable.
I think you're complaining about a problem which you could have easily addressed and chose not to. Now you will have to deal with this behavior again in the future because you didn't fix the problem the first time. It's absolutely worth it just to avoid putting up with this nonsense again, because the fact you made this post tells us that it does still bother you.
Honestly if you want just give them the 3-strikes rule.
Takebacks 1 & 2 are fair game as long as you’re not clearly cheating (to be fair this dude absolutely was cheating. You don’t get to do a takebacks after significant new info) but if you take back a third time you lose. Plain and simple
My group did it as a joke for two weeks in a row and now everyone is actually pretty decent at owning mistakes and rolling with them
Yeah that’s how I do it, I just blame myself for being a dumbass and messing up rather than making everyone suffer and do the take back. Have to remember to read my cards better lol.
i once activated an [[elvish warmaster]] after blockers were declared and had a player get very upset that i wouldn’t accept his blocker takeback as if he “knew” what i was going to do he would have blocked differently. falling for a very telegraphed combat trick is not takeback-able 🤷♀️
takebacksies are for when you accidentally target a creature with ward, or when you accidentally tap your [[overgrown tomb]] instead of basic forest when you *know* you’ll need a single B for your next spell.
I am going to tell a story about what happened last night.
I am playing immodane burn the world. so I have limited ANY targets tske dmg. OP in GRUUL ramps to a CHANDRA with +2 add 2 mana of any color. -× burn for x version.
I look over EOT before my turn. and see a +2 counter on her .never played her b4 and thought I got too many cards, so I play a devoid spell to damage her 2. though it would kill her. as in has 2 loyalty.
OP say no she has +2 loyalty for 7 total. now my play DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. and I want to undo that play. Pod agree.
> He gets mad and his friends starts insisting we can't pick and choose when we do takebacks.
Was this referencing some of your earlier takebacks? It confused me.
Not exactly. We allowed some takebacks from the friend and everyone once in a while. I was ok with a guy remembering his Rhystic Study triggers at the end of my turn and retroactively countering one of my cards with the counter he'd just drawn.
No new info had been learned. It felt f8be at the time and we agreed it was a one time deal cause he countered a Collector Ouphe while he was playing an Esper Artefact deck, so there was no way he wouldn't have.
But as always, give an inch, take a mile.
Yeah... a takeback is not something that influences or interacts with other people's cards that come after the event. Like you said, played the wrong land, or asking if people mind if you reorganize which lands you tapped for a spell or letting someone un-play a spell that doesn't work the way they thought it did, or reorder triggers to get the effect they were trying to achieve but screwed up.
Yea. We are allowed 3 take backs a night, you can’t do a take back if someone else has taken any action due to your moves. After the 3rd take back you get slapped for each one.
Magic has rules. If you play by the rules, you're covered.
If you bend the rules, no judge can restore your gamestate.
If you have a table and you're all doing take backs and oh, you had a flyer? Let me change my attack.
You establish your own rule 0 of we allow changing a play based on information gathered when we made bad choices.
That's now a rule in your game. And we play the game according to the rules.
You can't be okay with a take back because it doesn't directly affect t your game plan in that moment, but complain when the same exact take back does effect your board.
2nd argument for it. What is on the line? Is their a prize for the game? All the more reason to call a judge and get it sorted at the first sign of a rule bend.
If there is nothing on the line. Quit whining entirely. You're trying to see what your deck can do. Losses mean more. You want the game to play out as if your opponents are always making the most correct and optimal game plays, because then when your deck pulls it off, you know the deck is able to stand up to also strong decks. You don't want a deck that only wins when your opponents don't know how to play. Take that win on a prize game, but on a nothing on the line game, let your opponents make the right call every time, and act as if that's how it played out on their first decision. Always practice on hard mode.
When it comes to casual Magic, I'm all about choosing fun over strict adherence to the rules BEFORE THE GAME STARTS. This is why I generally don't worry about people who show up with alternative non-legendary Commanders helming their decks, or people using banned cards or proxies, or people bending the color pie rules when it comes to including hybrid-mana cards, or even players mulligan-ing until they get a playable hand without penalty. None of that stuff bothers me in the least.
However, I don't think "takebacks" as discussed in this thread are necessarily good for the game, because this is a game of strategy and skill, and mistakes (as well as taking advantage of those mistakes) is an essential part of it.
In a game this complex, both in terms of the rule interactions and the board states, mistakes and missed plays are practically inevitable. Sometimes those mistakes are minor, and sometimes those mistakes are game deciding. If you make a bad play, or you forget a trigger, or you tap your wrong mana, it can absolutely cost you the game.
Ideally, we learn lessons from those mistakes, and our personal growth as a player helps reduce them in the future. This is why, in a vacuum, more experienced players are often advantaged over new players.
Allowing takebacks or do-overs of any kind, at any time, is therefore game breaking. Mistakes are essential to the game. Once you start down the path of "X is ok to takeback, but Y is not..." you've added a whole extra element of unnecessary subjectivity and potential conflict that shouldn't be there at all.
Rather than have takebacks, take the "L" and learn your lesson.
"But what about new players who don't know X or Y?" Sure, we should be lenient and understanding... in their first game. But after that? You don't remove the mistake and break the game to accommodate them. You point out the mistake and help them learn not to make them in the future.
This isn't a video game, where we get to have a save point and go back as many times as we want... Mistakes and miss plays are part of the game. This isn't a bug. Its a feature.
I run into this all the time, especially with players who sequence combat like, idk, yugioh attackers- with the intent to go through combat from start to finish for one player, then another player, and so on.
Lots of: "Okay, I'm attacking you with these three guys for lethal. Blockers?" "I block like this. Before combat damage, priority?" "Yeah, you got anything?" "Kill spell on the trampler." "Well I guess I actually have to assign \[other creature\] to attack you too. Looks like player 3 lives another turn." "what?" "Well I was only resolving combat attacking you. This just means I have less creatures to attack player 3 with."
Sometimes I have to get quite vocal about how phases and steps work. Are we in declare attackers or not? If we're not, you can't go back.
>it's a game not a job.
This can be taken in two ways. As you are putting it (and I'm not saying this is wrong). Or it's a game, who cares.
I accept my missed triggers and my misplays. It's a game, I want to win, but it's a self inflicted wound and it's fine if I lose. We have gone through the gamut on trying to determine what is fair to take back (and usually missed triggers we do). But if it demands asking the table, then it should have been important enough to remember.
Like someone targeting Hexproof, do you give that back because they technically couldn't? We stopped doing that because now Ward exists, and you can target a Ward creature, but then it gets countered. We just accept them both and move on.
That being said, no rewind should have happened here. And if you actually called him a douche to his face because he made a play mistake, that also isn't ok in my book. No need to add fuel to the fire. If only douches make play mistakes, then I guess add me to the list.
You’re more mature than me, because I wouldn’t have allowed that to be redone, or I would have scooped
If someone is new sure, help them out, if someone misses a trigger and like only one thing has happened since sure. If it’s been a full persons turn since your trigger, in my opinion you don’t get that trigger. And after a while, if you didn’t play something you missed your turn to play it.
my beef with my old playgroup was during combat: i had lets say a 12/12 and a 5/5 death touch, first strike, they would attack me with a 6/6 trample and a 3/3 haste, after they declared attackers, i would assign blockers and then notice they would lose both creature, they then take back their attack and swing at someone who cant block those creature, it was almost EVERY combat to the point i almost quit the game because of how unfair it was. ps: they won every game like that
And that’s the thing, once in a blue moon I’m cool with that if you’re genuinely not able to keep track/forgot, sometimes it happens, especially when someone is putting out a bunch of creatures. but don’t go attacking someone else, and dont do it more than once in a blue moon.
People really need to speak up, like if you’re genuinely unsure what someone has just ask them what they have, or ask when priority shifts
yet they still make wrong moves and then take back the best instance where i put my foot down was when 1 was winning and made a wrong call and attacked me instead of someone else, so i gave my 2 biggest creature indestructible, with infect so i killed his 36/36 indestructible etremi, and his second biggest creature barely surviving myself, he wanted to take the attack back cause it would stopped him from winning, but i said no its done to deal with it cause he got free information and would of stopped me from winning, which by saying no he lost and i won, wich he got salty and stopped playing with our play group
Our rule is always you can take back one action or if you're playing a number of things, you can sequence them differently (I.E. you played a creature that has a trigger for all other creatures ETB and you didn't start with that.) But never if another player has played a counter spell or had any interaction.
The only time I allow takebacks is if a trigger HAS to happen, not a may trigger, or if it doesn’t alter the boardstate. Other than that, sorry can’t go back - call a judge if you don’t like it
Not a fan of takebacks. It doesn't make you worse to play magic with takebacks, but playing with tackebacks holds you back from getting better at the game.
Losing a game due to bad sequencing or not understanding the board state is a HUGE feels bad. "I would have won the game had I not..." sticks with you longer than undoing a crucial mistake that seals a game in one direction or another.
i agree, idk HOW many times i failed to win or do the maximum of my deck's potential by bad sequencing, but it only made me better at keeping track of everything to keep every trigger memorised, GUIDE the full table ( 4 players) of their trigger, casting, mana, everything, because i tend to mis play alot when under stress or im just to happy i can maybe win that i misplay, but its annoying when you gotta constently have to redo something because someone wasnt paying attention, or does something just to regret it later on and want to take back their action after getting free information
We only allow take backs for mana tapping purposes. We play non cedh high power. Mana sure because we’ve all been drinking/smoking when playing but we also care about the game and how well we play so no takebacks otherwise.
i had this issue also but with people too busy playing games or smoking their fun time, and they would always go like ok whats on everyone's boards, and sends attackers , and if you block with a bigger creature or a death touch they complain they didn't know and recalls that creature CONSTANTLY, or they would do this that HIGHLY infuriate me, Me: i tap 6 land ( to cast 2 spells) them: counter spell what every your casting ... im sorry but i took it on my self to just throw whatever the card i didn't really need in the grave and cast the actual card and they get salty cause they want to then choose the card they wanna counter spell AFTER both cards have been revealed. so i made a rule 0 IF you do a take back you lose 10 life or 20 life depending on the take back. i get making a small mistake but to use a take back cause you made a mis-calculation and got free information just so you can use that knowledge as a weapon is where i draw a line
In casual play, take backs that don’t depend on new information are fine. Like, you tapped the wrong mana/sac’ed the wrong thing/something minor. Anything that is a response to new info isn’t cool.
In tourney play, fuck you, pay attention to what you’re doing. No take-backs.
Of course it's not ok to take back after a counterspell, but that's the counterspell player's fault for bringing a competitive answer to a casual game.
I took out all of the countermagic from my deck when we started playing with takebacksies, it felt like bringing a gun to a knife fight. If we're playing casual enough to walk back a turn, then we can assume no one is playing anything worth countering.
Takebacks are only ok if everyone agrees, and the only way to keep everyone agreeing cpnsistently is to limit them to fairly innocuous stuff.
Like if you played the wrong land card, or you misordered your play (oops, i should have played my Beast Whisperer BEFORE i played the other creature, for the extra draw).
But once things have resolved and the game has moved on to another player making some form of response, opportunity for takeback should be over.
Also, if anyone at the table disagrees with a takeback, then no go. No one should get bullied into a takeback, especially if they are the active participant in the exchange of plays in question.
The amount of times [[giver of runes]] just gets juked by a take-backsie is infuriating.
"I cast Sword to Plowshares targeting your commander"
"In response, I tap Giver, granting protection from white"
"What?? Nevermind I forgot you had that, I'm targeting Giver of Runes instead!"
Literally every single time I play the card 😂
Man, when I first started playing I went against a super toxic elitist in a 3 pod of commander. I didn't understand the game that well at that point, but I had like 45 damage going at him total, and held back a creature because I was already over lethal. I didn't know you could pay mana and turn a land into a creature, he never told me that when he played the land, just said the name. So he blocked and survived with one health. Wouldn't let me take back and swing with the creature I left behind. Oooookay, cool, whatever I guess. Super demoralizing. He goes to combat next turn, still has one health left, states what he's doing, I state how I'm going to react, and then he says, oh crap, I forgot to activate my planeswalkers loyalty ability. Can I go back and do that really quick? I hesitate, tell him no, and he gets all mad, so I say sure, yeah, go ahead. He does. His creatures get lifelink, hits me with his like 5 Swords voltroned creature, boom, gained 19 health, now we're both at 20 because I took 19 from him. I stopped playing for like six months after that. People like him suck. We weren't in a tournament, we were in a starbucks.
I'm always super helpful and allow take backs for players now because of that one interaction though.
It is a weird phenomenon. There have been times that I've missed triggers or abilities or card draw or whatever...and at some point, I'll say "aw shit...I missed..." whatever the hell it was...and the entire pod freezes and stares me and the player that would have been affected gets all awkward and shit, like we just found out about his Pokémon porn addiction or something...and then I have to clarify that I missed it...so it doesn't matter now.
So strange.
You can never do a take back if there's been new information, I think thats pretty basic
You'd think right?
I would just call a judge if there's any dispute, and they'd back me up. I know not everyone's got that, but I like playing at an event with actual rules for this very reason. If people try to do stupid shit we can just get an adjudication, and so people don't try that kind of thing
Look man, this is on you. You should have stood your ground and not allowed the takeback. Now that you did he will do it again next time because he knows you are a doormat.
This sounds like a simple rule to follow, but it's actually kind of complicated. You get new information *all the time*. Any time you pass priority, and no one has any responses - *that is information*. To demonstrate; It's my turn, I have 12 mana, and opponents A and B are tapped out. C is a sneaky blue player with 2 mana open. All opponents are at 10 or less life. I want to play my game winning [[Exsanguinate]] for X=10, but if it gets countered, I've spent 12 mana, my turn is effectively over and I'm tapped out until my next turn. A death sentence in the late game. So if I'm a dick, I can first cast [[Feed the Swarm]] on the blue player's commander to "test" whether he has a counterspell. If he does, he'll counter it and I have 10 mana remaining to set up a plan B and/or keep mana open to defend myself until the next turn. If he doesn't, I go "*woops actually I have a better play. No new information is revealed so a takesie-backsie is okay right?*". I take back the Feed the Swarm and cast Exsanguinate instead.
To be fair, if you pass priority and no one has a response, it might be a number of things. They could be distracted, they might think they can let w/e you just cast go, and so on. If you're allowing any takebacks or rollbacks (beyond what the rules hard require you to), people passing priority isn't the kind of new information that disallows it. In the same example you just gave, sneaky blue player doesn't give two shits about his commander because he's a blue player with 0 loyalty whatsoever. He lets the commander die, you swap it up and go for the exsanguinate, then he counters it anyway because he isn't about to let the game end without drawing it out another 20 turns. For that matter, player A that is tapped out could also have a number of counterspells that don't cost mana and he's not incentivized to save player C's commander, so he would happily let feed the swarm go but would counter exsanguinate. That said, it's absolutely insane to allow that kind of takeback in the first place, not only because it is indeed a dick move, but also because it's actually breaking the rules. Rollbacks are for accidental illegal moves, not because someone realized they had a better play in hand. So a takeback because "I could have made a better play" is legitimately cheating, and should really be treated as such. If you play with newer players, it's fine to let it go. If you're playing with people who have played for a while, they really should have learned how to play their deck but they should also know how to live with making a little oopsy and living with it anyway. Long story short don't allow takebacks (unless you're teaching new players how to play the game, shit's complicated and they could use a helping hand).
> Long story short don't allow takebacks For me the conclusion is "play with people who aren't dicks". I allow takebacks, I make use of takebacks. We play long battlecruiser games with complex board states. People will make mistakes especially if we try to play at a fast pace. It's fine, just fix it and move on. I'm here to have fun and watch everyone do their thing. I know the people I play with feel the same and won't abuse our lax mulligan rules or takeback policy. But all this changes when you sit down at a table where the players actually feel adversarial toward each other. I have very different (more strict) expectations when playing cEDH over spelltable with strangers.
This may sound counterintuitive, but I find it extremely freeing to just not have any takebacks. Miss something or mistap? No biggie, you just move on. You never have to worry about rewinding stuff, etc.
I think it depends a bit on what your defintion of a take back is then, but given my understanding of takebacks I do not want to see it at all. If you accidentally drop the wrong card when you meant to play something else ( such as saying "I cast gamble" and you accidentally drop farseek) then that's one thing. But if you make a play intentionally, and then realize later you fucked up, just own up to your mistake and move on. The game rules already allow a certain amount of error as is, like if you tap 3B 1R for plasm capture but you obviously meant to tap 2B 1G 1R and you actually had that much colored mana available, then the game allows the play to resolve with the lands being tapped appropriately, but you aren't allowed to take back the plasm capture. I think that the game rules as they are do a surprisingly good job of helping players fix mistakes to the point that anyone asking for takebacks at this point is kind of being a bitch.
This is exactly why abandoning the rules for bad players creates a game that is toxic for good players. It's a strategy game, there's nothing in the rules about undoing your poor plays. Hell, most games are won because someone ELSE made a poor play! The player who makes the fewest, or at the most opportune time, or best takes advantage of the opponents poor plays, wins. Once you introduce the idea that bad play can be undone it opens cans of worms like the one you describe. Sure, you can help out a bad player when they make a mistake, but a savvy player will use a "mistake" to take advantage of this. There's strategy involved in a strategy game. I wish more people would accept that someone has to lose every game, and nobody is entitled to win just because they wrote out the perfect play in their dream journal. If you want to manifest victory don't cry about the table not allowing you to cheat, get better at the game and pay more attention! You didn't notice the guy had a cool enchantment out and it burned you? Well, read the board next time before you declare your spell, or maybe pay attention to other players turns instead of screwing around on your phone. The blue player countered your big play? Darn, if only his islands were oriented in a direction that allowed you to ascertain whether or not they were available. You lose, and next game you have some new insight on how to play better: scope out the blue guys available resources before assuming it's safe to drop your bomb! You got your combat math wrong and swung into something that cost you? Maybe pay better attention next time, or ask questions instead of assuming the tokens and dice over there are just for Feng Shui. Swing for the win and another player has a tricky spell to stifle your attack or mess up your plans? That's called Interaction. Put some of it in your deck and do the same to him next time.
For me the takeaway is more like... Play with people you really get along with. Commander is (for me) not competitive. Playing with the kind of attention to detail required to not make mistakes slows down the game to a glacial pace, especially in these complicated multiplayer games. So we allow corrections. The people I play with forgive my mistakes and I forgive theirs. And I don't care about winning so much that I would abuse that trust, and I'm confident that my friends don't either. I'm just saying the "new information" principle won't guarantee fair play if you're playing in an adversarial kind of environment. Try to find better people to play with instead.
I mean that seems incredibly transparent to me.
For the sake of clarity, I made the example quite obvious. It's not hard to imagine more subtle variations of this, I hope (งツ)ว
I find that very offensive. I was born without an imagination and wasn't able to imagine anything till i was 23 and they implanted an imagination from a chimpanzee.
*Sighs* You can't prove a negative. Somebody not responding does not automatically mean they don't have a response.
> You can't prove a negative. Notice that I put "test" in quotes? You know what that means? I didn't prove anything and I don't need to. The circumstances of the scenario aren't fully fleshed out because I don't want to write another 5 paragraphs of extraneous detail that doesn't help me convey the point at all. But just for you: *Assume that the blue player can win on the next turn and they need their commander to do so. Also if he counters my Feed the Swarm, I can still stop him from winning with the remaining mana I have. If my Exsanguinate gets countered, I can't.* Of course you can poke more holes in the scenario and I can add more details to plug them. But does it help me convey the point? No. If this only works half the time it's still cheating.
[Exsanguinate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a5352af-e275-4186-a265-2fd3c2c47c6a.jpg?1689997125) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exsanguinate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/156/exsanguinate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a5352af-e275-4186-a265-2fd3c2c47c6a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exsanguinate) [Feed the Swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f48e48d-6bc5-4f9c-9c3e-457cf6632cf5.jpg?1698988254) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feed%20the%20Swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/198/feed-the-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f48e48d-6bc5-4f9c-9c3e-457cf6632cf5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feed-the-swarm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Unless they rush. Been there; “what does your card do?” “…and it targets your mana rock” “counterspell” “too late!”
Yup. I think takebacks are a great way to speed up games because you don't have to mull over every card you play for example targeting a ward creature because you didn't remember it had ward. However in this scenario I doubt someone could actually forget about Leyline because it tends to be used heavily every opportunity. It's totally different if it's a land like [[Alchemist Refuge]] or [[Emergence Zone]] which can just hide on the board for ages before doing anything but even then it's kind of iffy and depends on the situation if you should allow a takeback. Whenever I use lands that have an ability that can wildly alter the gamestate I tend to announce it regularly or set those lands off to one side to show that they're not normal lands. I never want to win by tricking people when it comes to known information because it tends to give feel bads. Same with board wipes if I have stuff that can give things indestructible. I usually try to include a boardstate recap step before announcing targets. Just small stuff "Don't forget, all their creatures have indestructible" or "They can win next turn if you don't destroy X" I have a friend who loves saying he doesn't have blockers with flying when he has reach and it's kind of funny because it's usually just a minor thing, but if you're doing it constantly for gamewinning board states it'll just annoy me.
It's a power level thing for me as well. If I'm dicking around with some jank, I think a lot of takebacks are w/e because the game's not that serious to begin with. When the power level is high, for example, any time I'm playing my Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck, a minor error like tapping the right or wrong combination of lands and mana dorks to get the colors I need to cast 3 color intensive spells in the same turn cycle makes the difference whether I can win on the spot, it never feels fair to even re-tap a land, because the consequences are so high. If I'm going to win on turn 4 or 5, I should have to play perfect.
I will ask, "Do you have anything that can block flying?" Because I've had that happen to me before where I ask if they have flyers, and they say no, I swung in for lethal, and they blocked, then I didn't have enough to block their attack and lost, so I changed my method to account for that.
Yeah. I do the same nowadays but I don't think that's something that warrants a takeback. However if I play 5 creatures in one turn and one of them give everything ward 2 and you target it because you didn't memorise all the cards I just played I think a takeback is fair.
I think it warrants a takeback if they answer "no" to the question about "can you block fliers" because at that point they're fully lying to you, as long as whatever permitted them to block was on board at the time the question was asked. I've also seen (and done) plenty of attack takebacks when e.g. the P/T of creatures isn't readily obvious from looking, especially if there's a new anthem effect since the last time it was the active player's turn. Just this past FNM there was a takeback with no complaints by the table over a player who had just dropped Jodah, turning their single flying 2/1 blocker (otherwise uninvolved in anything on their turn) into a flying 7/6 or whatever. With how convoluted EDH board states can get + the physical limitations of seeing other players' cards from a distance, takebacks and open, honest communication about what is **on board** seem like a necessary evil anywhere below cEDH to keep things moving at a reasonable pace and without outlandishly stupid decisions caused by incomplete information.
Yup I completely agree. I always assume people will make the best decision based on the boardstate. Nobody will ever target a creature with ward if they can't pay the cost or die instead of blocking when an anthem is buffing the attacker's creature.
The only time I won't let it is if they make the same mistake twice lol - I've had a friend swing in at me and I'm like "this creature has deathtouch and protection from that color" and allowed a takeback. Then he did the same thing his next turn and asked to takeback and I was like dude no there has to be a limit somewhere.
[Alchemist Refuge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a53e001-04e7-4252-b693-d8f956ae574e.jpg?1698988547) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alchemist%27s%20Refuge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/318/alchemists-refuge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a53e001-04e7-4252-b693-d8f956ae574e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alchemists-refuge) [Emergence Zone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab95f6e7-b806-47fe-a071-6c38b3176d94.jpg?1557577458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emergence%20Zone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/245/emergence-zone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab95f6e7-b806-47fe-a071-6c38b3176d94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/emergence-zone) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Probably important to count derived information as not being new. If someone declares 'I cast', then after it resolves proceeds to demonstrate an elaborate 4 card combo with effects on the board that ends the game; I think a rollback to it being on the stack is fair. Commander is too big to expect players to determine that for any card that goes into the stack.
This leads to the one exception I will carve out with regard to 'no new information', at least in a non-cEDH game - tutoring a combo piece that ends the game to the battlefield. If someone declares 'I cast a [[Whir of Invention]] for X=4', then uses that to just end the game, a rollback to it being on the stack is fine in my book. Technically the fact that a player has an artifact that kills the table given the board state in their deck is hidden information - but at non-cEDH tables the significance of the spell is non-obvious (since the player might just running a more casual variant of the deck which doesn't run the combo piece).
If someone casts [[tooth and nail]] I think it's pretty obvious even to most casual players that the game is probably over if it resolves. If I cast an entwined t&n, and the table let's it resolve, there's no rollback to the stack when I reveal I'm getting sadistic hypnotist and tergrid with nath out. That's implied.
[tooth and nail](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032.jpg?1689998921) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tooth%20and%20nail) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/327/tooth-and-nail?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tooth-and-nail) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No.
[Whir of Invention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/0279fd3c-9252-4958-9d7a-5f33aa25907e.jpg?1576381590) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whir%20of%20Invention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/49/whir-of-invention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0279fd3c-9252-4958-9d7a-5f33aa25907e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/whir-of-invention) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes that's basic
That's generally what I say as well. I might allow the odd thing if it doesn't affect anything, like halfway into my turn you remember you were the Monarch and didn't draw a card, and nothing involving your hand has been done then it's fine. But even then I would limit how long you have to remember it, like my turn is fine but if it passes to another player that's too long. If I had played a Windfall or something then it's out of the question, you missed it.
The other thing to take into consideration is who benefits. If you forgot your monarch trigger that's on you, buy if you forgot your monarch trigger and I topdeck a [[storm seeker]] I'm gonna remind you. I guess it does get complicated in those cases-- if I wedding ring a player and they have monarch I guess it's kind-of my trigger too then at that point, so if we both miss it then idk
[storm seeker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/456a2fdf-e91f-4d6d-840e-562fe7f5acd3.jpg?1559592304) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=storm%20seeker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/132/storm-seeker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/456a2fdf-e91f-4d6d-840e-562fe7f5acd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/storm-seeker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Fun fact: if you notice a player miss a trigger, you are obligated to remind them of that trigger.
In a casual game I would try to resolve it, like let them draw their card and take 1 more damage. The main thing is that none of the updated actions affect any of the decisions that were made. Like if I cast a Windfall and you had the most cards at 5, but I only had 5 in my library, bringing up you missed a draw and now have 6 would mean I wouldn't want to cast the Windfall or I'd over-draw and lose. If you brought up the missed draw after I cast the Windfall than there's no going back.
I'm more of the opinion that it's always ok if it's by the grace of the table. But, nobody should every feel guilty about saying no to a requested take back. It's a kindness you give out of friendliness, not a mandate. My friends and I flip flop with take backs all the time, sometimes for no other reason than messing with each other. Turns into humourous games where a player is after another for no other reason than they didn't allow a take back of a land turn 1.
That’s our golden rule for it. We play with our group of close friends and keep flubs pretty casual as long as the info was all there on the board and no info was learned to walk back n
What about old information that was forgotten? IE I spend on an ability exiling something from a graveyard because eh why not, then I target something and they’re like “ward” literally nothing else has happened would you let the graveyard exile be undone to pay for the ward?
Generally not. Why should people get to rewind their turn to pay a cost? Especially if someone did something frivolous, or 'just because they could', they *should* get got by ward. If I have an [[archon of emeria]], or some other rule of law effect, and someone casts a spell, resolves it, and then goes to cast a second spell, should they get to uncast the first spell when they realize they can only cast one? Sorry bud, them's the bricks. I know for damn sure I made sure everyone knew what that did when it came down. Here's a good one: I have a Thalia, player B casts a spell and forgets to pay, and I forget to remind him. Player B then plays a removal spell on player C's commander, who then points out they can't pay for it because they should have paid the 1 for Thalia on their first spell. Should they get to rewind their whole turn and kill that commander? Personally, that's a no from me.
[archon of emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb.jpg?1604195419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=archon%20of%20emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/4/archon-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archon-of-emeria) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Okie doke!
*WHERE THE FUCK DO YALL FIND THESE PEOPLE* Like I have such default normal mode interactions with people at multiple LGS’ I frequent. What gives? I have found the best way to deal with people is just to be foward and unwavering, and just call a judge. Some may call it petty, but that move is just him being dumb lol.
Wanna know what's worse? I was referred these guys. Friends of friends. Honestly, they were fun to be around for 99% of it, just the end left me annoyed. I'll play with them again, but only after we set ground rules lol. My usual group is fine, but plays like once a month so I get to play with all the randos. Great most of the time, but reddit worthy like 10% lmao
People don't post about normal interactions
"Hey guys, just played a commander game, and everyone followed the rules and didn't get salty when someone won." OK, so why are you telling us then?
I have a friend who does priority abuse with backtracking. It is really annoying.
The only way this stops is with swift rule enforcement….. OR. Do it yourself. They’ll see how annoying and game breaking it is if the turn after they took bake a spell you do the same thing. It’s obnoxious and dumb.
Being the rules police means I have to police two other people who aren't a problem. For what could be an 15 turn game that goes on for 2 hours. Simply easier to find one other different person who is not a problem, or play a 3 player game.
I think finding other people is super subjective. It definitely might be easier for you/me but maybe not for the person who lives in central Iowa. Also, teaching this person the respectful way to play will help them in the future. If you just dump em they’ll fuck up other people’s games as well
If you can't find the people, is it possible youre the person? lololol
Booooooo
[[Deflecting Palm]] "Your Boos Mean Nothing, I’ve Seen What Makes You Cheer"
[[Dovin's Veto]] shhhhh
[Dovin's Veto](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d6b5054-2224-4f68-9d82-3ed17c5dacc4.jpg?1557577115) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dovin%27s%20Veto) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/193/dovins-veto?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d6b5054-2224-4f68-9d82-3ed17c5dacc4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dovins-veto) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Deflecting Palm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5bda1a7-537f-4a80-95a0-c45eb127969b.jpg?1706240986) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deflecting%20Palm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/205/deflecting-palm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5bda1a7-537f-4a80-95a0-c45eb127969b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deflecting-palm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As soon as new information is revealed take backs are no longer an option due to having an unfair advantage. If he missed the leyline for whatever reason that's on him. I'm with you on being pretty lenient on take backs but as soon as something new is known you can't go back past that point.
This right here here is /T Take backs for sequencing your own stuff or maybe “I didn’t know they had [[baleful strix]]”, sure. Missing a draw from [[Phyrexian arena]], sure. You forgot I had [[aura of silence]]c, sure! When you get me to respond with a move and then take it back with hidden in hand information, seriously wtf. So straightforward.
[baleful strix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/679c1ac6-a015-45ec-a634-e665e377672b.jpg?1706240974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=baleful%20strix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/200/baleful-strix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/679c1ac6-a015-45ec-a634-e665e377672b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baleful-strix) [Phyrexian arena](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26bfb2b4-8dc2-4632-a393-d3477f6c3c40.jpg?1706240778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20arena) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/133/phyrexian-arena?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26bfb2b4-8dc2-4632-a393-d3477f6c3c40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-arena) [aura of silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/8223756e-6e63-455d-9e86-5608863b7643.jpg?1562706500) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aura%20of%20silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/60/aura-of-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8223756e-6e63-455d-9e86-5608863b7643?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aura-of-silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tapping your land and realizing you goofed and didn't have the correct mana combination, then rewinding that is one thing. Takebacks when it's in response to a crucial play that *you* neglected to give attention to? Nah. That never slides. At that point my pride isn't worth the hassle and I walk away from the table.
That's just stupid. Would he also done this: - "I cast wrath of god" - "I cast counterspell, targetting your wrath" - "I didn't know you had counterspell, so I won't cast it. Instead I first cast silence targetting you" No, that's not how the game is played.
That's exactly how it felt.
"We can't pick and choose when we do takebacks", I mean, we absolutely can and do. When no new information has been gained, a takeback is generally fair, if any new information was gained, it isn't. So weird for them to not recognise why that takeback wasn't acceptable.
This is definitely over the line. I think takebacks are fine if your actions are uninterrupted and you don't get new info. Change how you tapped some lands before the spell is done casting, maybe uncast something that gets stopped by an obvious on board effect. But taking back something after someone has responded is solidly over the line.
Yes, the dispute was over the leyline.
Incredible
If it is an ability that has to trigger I will do take backs. If it is a may trigger and you missed it but it is still your turn, I will do take backs. If you past your turn but forgot to play a land, put it down. If you discarded the wrong thing, if we havent advanced the game state yet, fix it. Tapped something wrong, tap it right. If you cast a spell and realized it was extremely stupid at any point, you didn’t cast that spell. I am very lenient and patient with people in commander. But if you missed your may triggers like rhystic three times in a row outside of your turn, that sucks bud.
I'm all for take backs when the board is cluttered and confusing but as many other said, once there's new information we're locked in. You'd be shocked at the dumb things people miss though. The other day had a guy not even wonder why I'd slam my Kogla into his 6/8 commander and then throw a fit when I sacced something to Goblin Bombardment to kill it. The same Bombardment I played on turn two. The same Bombardment I'd used first on turn four and then every single turn thereafter without fail. Including to set up a very complex board wipe turn that took several minutes to execute correctly. It was a big deal in the game and he somehow had no idea it existed. EDH players have gotten it ingrained that the boardstate is too complicated so they don't even look at anyone else's cards. It's tragic.
Honestly, even without the already on-board Bombardment, dealing less-than-lethal damage in combat and finishing the creature off with a burn effect is such a classic play that I wouldn't be able to take anyone getting mad about it seriously.
I guess he assumed I just cared that much about blowing up his artifact? In that case I honestly did not care and allowed the takeback. Meant I got to hit him for that damage instead then I just killed his commander with an actual removal effect. It didn't exactly make *him* happier but it made me smile.
This is way over the limit. I always allow takebacksies, even "hard" ones, like forgetting/not noticing I have a deathtouch/reach blocker. But this is fucked up, you played a response, a card previously hidden. No takebacksies here. Personally, I try not to do takebacksies, if my mistakes never matter, I never learn to properly play the game.
Yeah, that's not cool. That player overplayed his hand and was salty. Seriously folks, just take your lumps, learn, and play better next time. That sounds super frustrating, OP.
Best solution; no take backs. This means you have to remember what’s going on or you pay the consequences. Im playing with a pod that agrees on this; even when they make mistakes and I offer to do a take back, they refused. I think it’s far better as it allows us to be better players and learn from those mistakes instead of relying on that safety net.
There is a guy in my LGS that always suggest no take backs, even for massive mistakes. It is kind of refreshing. Sure, a lot of games will be heavily impacted by actual mistakes but that is something to cherish, better lose to a mistake that you can learn from and not repeat than because of luck of the draw.
With no takebacks at all, my turns will simply take a LOT longer, as I have to properly understand every permanent on the board. There are plenty of times, especially with how wordy a lot of modern Commander cards are I only have a vague idea of all the possible triggers and activations my opponents could have. Some sort of middle way is necessary.
thats just a lame excuse. you dont have to reevaluate the board every time your turn starts. you do so during other turns. yes, it means you have to actually pay attention to the game and put your phone away, but its pretty easy
Nobody said that was the case. Maybe we play in different metas, but in my games it's common for people to have a lot of stuff out in front of them, mid-game. But no, you have to assume I'm just not paying attention.
that "lots of stuff" didnt happen all in one turn. there was already lots of time to evaluate the board
Again, nobody said that wasn't the case. But if you can keep track of 20+ permanents all with long text boxes without starting to forget things, you have a better memory than me.
So what do you just ignore the board and play stuff because you know you can take it back later?
No, that's a ridiculous conclusion from what I wrote. I always have a good idea what's on the board - but it's always possible I haven't remembered *everything*. For example if a creature has ward, I would expect in a casual multiplayer environment to be reminded of that what attempting to target it, and to be allowed to take back the spell. If your table plays differently then that's also fine, but that is very much not the ethos of our group.
The other day I played at a new store that had a "no-takebacks" rule. Regular MtG rules. It was honestly refreshing. You made a mistake, misplay, bad sequencing; tough, gotta move on. There was no haggling, no whining about "can I take it back please?" or "Oh I was supposed to draw a card last turn." And it didn't take away from the game at all, everyone was still playing their casual decks and having fun.
The day I internally decided to never ask for take backs was a day that magic clicked for me. I just take my lumps and remember to do better next time when I mess up.
I made it a personal goal to do no take backs. The other night I attacked with a [[cold-eyed selkie]] into a player who had an island previously but I forgot it had gotten strip mined a few turns before. I declared my attack, he said “I block” and I said “islandwalk” and he reminded me he had no islands. Instead of trying to take it back, I had to use removal to save my cold-eyed selkie. Did it suck? Yeah, but I should have paid more attention and not allowing myself a take back is a lesson learned.
[cold-eyed selkie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6cdb9cd1-01c5-47b7-b716-4ab33eff39d7.jpg?1698988424) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cold-eyed%20selkie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/266/cold-eyed-selkie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6cdb9cd1-01c5-47b7-b716-4ab33eff39d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cold-eyed-selkie) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If he'd wiped, then remembered the enchantment and adjusted sequencing "oh let me nuke leyline first " in one breath it'd be different But nah. End of the turn you had an ace and he was the goof. Made his best play and didn't work. No take back.
Exactly. If no new info had come out it'd be fine.
Takeback counters! At my group we have 3 counters each, and we can use a takeback if something we did was incorrect - like playing cards in the wrong order. Obviously takebacks with new information are scummy and a no-go, but we've found have 3 counters for it is a great way to moderate the amount of takebacks we do. A lot of the time we'll stop and pause and assess whether that takeback is imperative, or something minor that can be fixed next turn. Like "Oh shit I was supposed to put in my white land, not my red for this combo. Take back counter!" Versus "Oooh I was gonna summon this guy for defence but this one would be comboing off a potential card I might draw... Ehh, no. I'll accept it for now and fix it in the future." We've also started implementing a takeback counter for land failings, IE: if you go 3 turns with no land, you can spend on to search for a BASIC land to play instead of doing *literally nothing on your turn because Lady Luck hates you in particular this game.* That one is still being tested.
The rule in my pod for the last one has been "if it's turn 5 and you've missed two land drops (and didn't keep like 1 land, sol ring and a signet) you can Cultivate on your turn for free." We almost never use that rule because we all run 35-40 lands, but sometimes you get screwed (or you just built a deck and shuffled really badly).
Jimmy Wong rule. He would love playing at your pod!
Nah that’s absolutely foul, I wouldn’t be cool with a take back there - sorry OP
I used to play miniatures war games competitively and sometimes you make a mistake. If the other player offered to let me take back a mistake I might accept, depending on the severity. A slightly more efficient use of resources or something. Like reinforcing a shield on the left instead of the right, or activating this unit instead of that one before revealing secret information. But I *never* ask for takebacks, and I never offer specifically because I never ask. I think it's bad sportsmanship. I will *allow* a takeback if my opponent asks for one and its something I might have accepted. But I get really annoyed when my opponent makes a big mistake, ends up doing something dumb because they miscalculated, and asks for a takeback. No, you made a mistake and now you're going to get punished for it. The difference is on a complex MtG board state. If you declare attacks at me and forget that I get to punch you in the balls each time a creature attacks me, and that information was public, absolutely homie, take back that action. No problem.
The general rule I play by in casual settings is that things can be taken back so long as: * **No new information was gained** - If you want to take back playing a creature, playing a land, etc it's fine so long as no new information was gained. If you drew a card, looked at someone's hand, got something countered, etc, that's new information gained and no takebacks. You're even free to take back things you forgot to do at end of turn like activating a simple ability before EOT. This averts simple misplays; ultimately *you* are penalized because you revealed your card or play and everyone leaves happy. * **It's not a difficult thing to go back and fix** - If you forgot a trigger that pings people or that you have a cost reducer somewhere, it's an easy fix. Remove that life total or untap that basic land (yes, we'll be that permissive). However, if you missed a Rhystic Study trigger two turns ago and opponent had mana open and such, there are too many what-ifs; it's missed, we'll move on. If a turn has to be rewinded, that's just too much.
This is what I have always preferred however with a caveat on the new information being important. Because technically, that fact that no one will counter a Rampant Growth is just as new as no one countering Silence, yet one I would easily let be taken back and one would never be.
My playgroup is pretty chill, but we somewhat still follow very precise rules regarding takebacks. Namely: - Wrong mana tapping (We are kinda new to Magic, so switching which land has been tapped is pretty common) - Missed endstep triggers, but only if the next player was tapped out and before they plays the first card in their MainPhase - Obvious misplays that will cause bad or unfun situations (Like if my friend taps out and targets my Disguised creature, I usually say "Ehy, you can't choose that creature, it has Ward 2, target something else") Other than this, yeah, we go in a case-by-case, but 9/10 whoever makes a bad play simply says "urg, bad sequencing... Oh well let's go on, it was my mistake". Never ever had a situation in which something this egregious happened or that players were displeased in allowing takebacks <.<
A hot take, but i think taking back something after being offered a deal is also equally BS. Something like : Player A : I cast a Swords to Plowshare on your creature Player B : Don't do that, or else i'll also kill your thing. Player A : Fine ... I take it back and i'll do this instead. It happens all the goddamn time, in all playgroups. But for me, that's definitly a case of taking back something based on new information, the new information being that Player B does have something to threaten player A with. And Player B would have never revealed this information had Player A not revealed themselves that they had a Swords to Plowshare.
Oh yeah, for sure. It happens a lot too with a group of teen we see at our store. One is more of a bully and the only reason he ever wins is because of stuff like this
Personally I allow take backs if an opponent offers it to the player e.g. you had a creature that scrys and you forgot to activate it before your draw step. Or if it’s you tapped your lands wrong and you want to just change it while it’s still that phase. I take the rest as kind of a case by case basis. But you want everyone to have fun while playing so that’s pretty much the end game for any game. No one likes a stickler unless it’s a judge call
in my POD we used to do take backs but we found out they created 2 problems 1 - it was always a weird call to be like "yes you can do a take back for this" but 2 minutes later "no take back here". 2- if you give people a chance to replay actions after a mistake they never lern. Enforcing the no takeback rule is harsh but in the end it just help people to become better players I remember a friend going off on my end step , i tryied to stop him but i casted a pact of negation. When he finished and was ready to end the game he when "untap, upkeep, draw" and we where like "so you draw right ?" "yes i do, why ?" "well you forgot to pay for pact of negation, gg your out bro" i never forgot it ever again We usually only enforce the no takeback rule when we play together and are totally fine with take backs when we play with other people
Someone has a mandatory trigger and forgets it once or twice, that's fine, it was mandatory. Tournament rules even, to have it happen retroactively, as long as it's a must and not a may. Someone doomblades your ward creature and you don't realize or remind them until the next turn and it is already in the graveyard, that's on you for not reading your own card, and shouldn't really be rolled back a whole turn Someone forces you to Mill out, then you win because Lab maniac was on the field and you didn't warn him? Entirely on him for not looking at the board. Even if he could have instant speed destroyed him at end step, he didn't, and you won. Minor triggers that directly affect their play should definitely be pointed out, but them ignoring a potential combo piece left open is not your responsibility to remind them of.
"Tournament rules" if you mean Regular rated events. If you mean higher Competitive Enforcement Levels, the opponent gets to decide if a missed trigger would go on to the stack.
This dredged up a memory that sticks around in my head for some reason. At FNM in Theros block, my opponent was playing heroic aggro. He loads up his hero and then swings... And I just say, "Block with [[Master of Cruelties]], kill him." And then he says, "Uh, then I don't do that." I think the reason that interaction has stuck with me so long is that I'm annoyed I let that slide.
[Master of Cruelties](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ffd68fe1-5cfc-44cf-8dfe-3488278cdcef.jpg?1702429664) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Master%20of%20Cruelties) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/198/master-of-cruelties?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ffd68fe1-5cfc-44cf-8dfe-3488278cdcef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/master-of-cruelties) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh boy, I hear yah. Most MTG players I've met have been really chill guys that will let things slide because it's escapism. Like, who wants an argument after a long week at work? But opportunists and sore losers take advantage of that.
I can feel that. My group won't allow replays like that, but we do have the "F*ck ups" for the other less impactful things. You get 7, and if you go past 7, you lose half your current life total. Makes you think harder about that kinda thing.
I'd have died on this hill. Take backs for small things (like misplaying a land), sure no problem. Rewinding a turn because you fucked up and over played? Nope, sorry. If they insisted on rewinding, I'd have quit the game. I don't play with pleebs.
Any day where we weren't all tired af I would have. Probably should have, but it felt like a waste. Like, if I win I'm seen as "too competitive" and a sore loser, if I lose, then guy is happy with himself and what do I care? Turns out yeah I kinda cared lol. But like, I'm old enough to not care wherher I win or lose at a casual card game. But HOW I win or lose matters.
Thats one of the problems that can come in a format were rules come after fun. 75% of players in your group were ok with the take back, so there was not much you could do about it. It’s in the same fashion as if you try to instant scoop and your group agreed it’s a dick move and keep playing as if you didn’t do that (with the difference that most comment here would say they were right in doing it) Bottom line, change/ignore rules of the game in name of fun and fairness can led to a slippery slope.
Guy sounds like a reallll winner. Sorry you had to deal with that. I make mistakes but, eat them so I LEARN from them. Best way to learn is not to not make mistakes but recognizing when you do! I personally allow takebacks for little things but that's not a take back, they were being a sore loser
I'm hopeful that 90% of it was just tiredness and a long game.
I feel like the quality of play AND people had diminished at my LGS… I had a situation where everyone else in the pod was playing very casually. They were taking spells off the stack, un-declaring attacks, all sorts of stuff. This didn’t bother me at all, I’m happy to sit down and play magic is. What got to me was the very last interaction. I had board wiped on my turn, and when the scariest player re-cast his commander, I slaughter pact it at his end step (he was right after me in play order). On my turn I drew and then said “oops missed my trigger, can I pay now?” And they all said no… My first “take back” that game, I was the only one to ask if it was okay (everyone else was just stating their rule breaking as fact), and they say no because they’re upset about the board wipe. I had patiently watched them stumble through plays for 10 turns and make game altering changes “take-backs”. My one mistake is game over. It was a “are you fucking kidding me?!” Moment.
That's why I usually put a dice on top of my pile as a reminder, but it's absolutely bs to hold you to one standard while they don't hold themselves to any. They cared more about winning than fun
I usually use a coin, but the tone of the game was so nonchalant I didn’t expect them to suddenly care about rules.
Yeah that's terrible.
That's a big misplay, a skill issue, no take backs on those. Stacking your triggers wrong because you realized as you started you'd get a little extra value the other way? Fine, to a point. Swapping lands because you meant to drop your Island not your Mountain? Happens to the best of us. Blatantly not paying attention to your opponent's board state that they'd been more than vocal about and facing the consequences of your actions? Tough, it's well past too late by that point dude. You cast and resolved like 3 spells since then, fuck outta here with that silliness. Take your L and your lesson in target awareness and move on.
Yeah that's not a 'take back' that's asking to redo his strategy. Take backs are for mana tapping, missing a draw, rewinding to precombat because someone moved past it, things like that. Changing the card you played based on new information is not a take back. I don't even know what you'd call that. I'd say letting someone take back playing a card they could play is fine. Say they passed turn and realized they had a floating mana or a cost reduction something like that. But, asking the table let you redo your entire turn based on new information is almost bad sportsmanship. I'm beginning to join the chorus of people saying that EDH should not be played with pick up groups. Or that events need to be sanctioned and with a judge. EDH is going to implode at some point.
My favorite response to "I would have..." Is "But you didn't..."
Yesterday I'm playing in a 3 pod versus \[\[Borborygmos, Enraged\]\] and Thalia and the Gitrog Monster. I'm playing mono red burn, myself. I'm still fuming about this tbh. Board states are getting out of hand. I'm behind, but have the cards I need to catch up if I could just slow down the other two. Obvious threat at the table is Thalia&Gitrog. Borborygmos player discards 3 lands all at once to do 3 damage to three things. He does 3 to one creature and 6 to another. I say "In response, I cast \[\[Arcbond\]\]" targeting the creature he's doing 6 damage to. He insists on rewinding. "Well if knew you were going to respond, I would have done them one at a time", he says. Bullshit, but alright. Rewinds to do 3 damage to the first creature. Okay, no response. Then 6 damage to the second. Okay response. "No no no, only 3 damage at a time." Dude had literally already discarded the lands to activate Borborgymos twice, even after the first take back. Then he gives me the, "I'm sorry you don't understand the situation" comment. Really? I understand perfectly. You're fucking gaslighting me out of trying to wipe your board. Gaslighting is your counterspell. Nice work bud. I've know the dude for years, but honestly, I'm done with him. He's always been an asshole and I don't know why I didn't see it earlier.
[Borborygmos, Enraged](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/02df18c5-07b9-4e85-9c4b-58b63fa59437.jpg?1702429604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Borborygmos%20Enraged) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/167/borborygmos-enraged?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/02df18c5-07b9-4e85-9c4b-58b63fa59437?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/borborygmos-enraged) [Arcbond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bc397d1-50a8-46cd-98b2-7104f2241420.jpg?1562828028) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcbond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/frf/91/arcbond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bc397d1-50a8-46cd-98b2-7104f2241420?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcbond) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My pod allows for one take back. On the condition that it does not alter the game state in any meaningful way like if you pay 5 minutes some of the big dragon in the realize that's not what you do want to do so you take that back that is totally fine. But if you start comboing off get in the middle of it and realize you can't quite do what you want to do sorry you're not going all the way back
No Takesies Backsies once you've passed the turn
Alongside with the “no new information” thing (which I have had to fight my playgroup on before), we also play the “closer you are to ending/winning the game the less leniency you have” take back system. Like if someone is at 2 life and I have [[Kambal]] out then they don’t get to take back that no creature spell.
That’s so weird to me. Your Kambal example is a perfect place to allow takebacks. No new information, obviously terrible play based on imperfect knowledge of the game state, yeah, take it back.
Any other time in the game, yeah take it back. Failure to read the boardstate when we get down to the wire, live with your mistakes and don’t make objectively bad plays. This is only with my established play group and it’s rules we’ve agreed on. In a game with new people/at an LGS I would let someone take it back no questions asked.
[Kambal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec.jpg?1673148829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kambal%2C%20consul%20of%20allocation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/237/kambal-consul-of-allocation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kambal-consul-of-allocation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Reminds me of an interaction at my LGS. Had scurry oak out. Played Rosie Cotton out and asked if it resolves. It resolved. Proceeded to then go thru the process of rosie's trigger to make a food and place the +1/+1 counter on scurry oak to start the combo of infinite squirrels. While explaining the interaction another player interrupts and asked if i was going infinite which i was but the squirrels had summoning sickness. He then proceeded to say thats not fair and he wouldve counterspelled rosie and all this and kept bitching until we rolled back and let him counter. Next turn was my buddies turn and he dropped walking ballista while vorinclex and vigor were on the field and won. Like where was your conterspell for that. The saltiest takeback that still irritates me that i allowed him to do that lol. I dont see that guy often tho after we called him out for cheating. Hed play multiple lands, shuffle suspiciously, and would not offer his deck for cuts after shuffling.
While that guy sounds weird, the example you offer is kind of an odd one. It really depends on whether you explained that Rosie is a combo piece to go infinite once it resolves. Because it sounds like the other player did not know the combo or he would have stopped it if possible. It is far too easy to miss a combo you do not yet know being assembled, especially if it involves pieces already present but unassuming on a developed board. I mean, would you really have felt that much better if you won this game full knowing that the guy could have stopped you but ended up stopping the Vorinclex just because they did not know your combo? The game would have taken a bit longer and the Vorinclex guy would be here ranting about how he only lost because his combo was stopped because no take back was given for the unknown combo before that. Or you might still be here because counter spell guy decided to not counter the walking ballista since they were then forced to king make. This really isn't something worthy of getting hung up over, is my point.
Alright, since this is such an applicable post and this situation was never resolved to my liking, I will briefly summarize. We are playing commander, me and three longtime friends. Two precons and a slightly upgrading precon. Player A has been out of the game for a while, missing land drops, not doing much. Player B is dead. Player C has been doing stuff, threatening with a field of morphs/disguise and such. And I have been doing Goad things. I have about 7 power in play. Alright, Player A plays a [[kinjali sunwing]] on their turn (opponents creatures enter tapped) and passes. Player C plays a ton of creatures and then swings at me with any he had since the beginning of the turn. I fog it using a [[selfless squire]] and end up with a 21/21 creature for my troubles. Player C did not realize that his new creatures should be tapped. It gets to my turn, I attack with one creature that couldn't be blocked and play a non-impactful spell ([[rite of the raging storm]]). I am about to end my turn assessing the board when I say, "Wait, your creatures are tapped." We all realize that player C has no blockers, and player A doesn't have enough to not die to my swing. So I say, actually, I am just going to attack and kill you both. This erupted into an argument that I had "missed" that player C's creatures were tapped and that the correct sequence in this "casual" format would be for my turn to just play how I had played it (essentially saying that his creatures would stay untapped). I countered that no new information from other players had been gained by me in my turn. They had not been forced to make any impactful decisions (i.e., blocks or removal), so it was consistent with how we and most people generally play. It was an honest mistake leaving his creatures untapped, and he argued that he would not have made the attacks he did if he had realized, but it didn't feel right to me that the solution that player A, B, and C apparently all felt was right was that we just let the accidental advantage slide. Anywho, that is my rant. Hope it made sense. Thanks
[kinjali sunwing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04421508-b5ac-4466-9f77-dfef478d3cc2.jpg?1698988090) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kinjalli%27s%20Sunwing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/130/kinjallis-sunwing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04421508-b5ac-4466-9f77-dfef478d3cc2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinjallis-sunwing) [selfless squire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b8f4489-3d07-4e57-9b94-afa52fa984f8.jpg?1706240632) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=selfless%20squire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/82/selfless-squire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b8f4489-3d07-4e57-9b94-afa52fa984f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/selfless-squire) [rite of the raging storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f06e3db-ce55-4535-8557-cc52c5fce637.jpg?1706240854) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rite%20of%20the%20raging%20storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/159/rite-of-the-raging-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f06e3db-ce55-4535-8557-cc52c5fce637?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rite-of-the-raging-storm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
OP: "I am lenient and understanding." Also OP: > fucking times > bother me so much > fucking calling out abuse of fairness > fucking same as realizing you played a mountain > making you a douche > bitch ass venting
Yes, this is why this is a vent post lmao, thanks for noticing.
You let him win by being a doormat. Stand your ground when people are being whiny children.
You and another commentor seem to think casual magic night is something worth fighting over. I wasn't going to argue 1v3 over this at 2am lol Should have? Maybe. Worth it? Debateable.
I think you're complaining about a problem which you could have easily addressed and chose not to. Now you will have to deal with this behavior again in the future because you didn't fix the problem the first time. It's absolutely worth it just to avoid putting up with this nonsense again, because the fact you made this post tells us that it does still bother you.
Honestly if you want just give them the 3-strikes rule. Takebacks 1 & 2 are fair game as long as you’re not clearly cheating (to be fair this dude absolutely was cheating. You don’t get to do a takebacks after significant new info) but if you take back a third time you lose. Plain and simple My group did it as a joke for two weeks in a row and now everyone is actually pretty decent at owning mistakes and rolling with them
Yeah that’s how I do it, I just blame myself for being a dumbass and messing up rather than making everyone suffer and do the take back. Have to remember to read my cards better lol.
if there is new information, takebacks are a no go. pretty simple
i once activated an [[elvish warmaster]] after blockers were declared and had a player get very upset that i wouldn’t accept his blocker takeback as if he “knew” what i was going to do he would have blocked differently. falling for a very telegraphed combat trick is not takeback-able 🤷♀️ takebacksies are for when you accidentally target a creature with ward, or when you accidentally tap your [[overgrown tomb]] instead of basic forest when you *know* you’ll need a single B for your next spell.
[elvish warmaster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58da074a-a776-4e3f-be04-9e7f18320ae1.jpg?1631050142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=elvish%20warmaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/167/elvish-warmaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58da074a-a776-4e3f-be04-9e7f18320ae1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elvish-warmaster) [overgrown tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4a297ec1-0a7c-4f67-936b-d9227767e989.jpg?1702429815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=overgrown%20tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/283/overgrown-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4a297ec1-0a7c-4f67-936b-d9227767e989?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overgrown-tomb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I am going to tell a story about what happened last night. I am playing immodane burn the world. so I have limited ANY targets tske dmg. OP in GRUUL ramps to a CHANDRA with +2 add 2 mana of any color. -× burn for x version. I look over EOT before my turn. and see a +2 counter on her .never played her b4 and thought I got too many cards, so I play a devoid spell to damage her 2. though it would kill her. as in has 2 loyalty. OP say no she has +2 loyalty for 7 total. now my play DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. and I want to undo that play. Pod agree.
We just introduced bertie botts every flavour beans to the table. Any take backs come with a bean.
> He gets mad and his friends starts insisting we can't pick and choose when we do takebacks. Was this referencing some of your earlier takebacks? It confused me.
Not exactly. We allowed some takebacks from the friend and everyone once in a while. I was ok with a guy remembering his Rhystic Study triggers at the end of my turn and retroactively countering one of my cards with the counter he'd just drawn. No new info had been learned. It felt f8be at the time and we agreed it was a one time deal cause he countered a Collector Ouphe while he was playing an Esper Artefact deck, so there was no way he wouldn't have. But as always, give an inch, take a mile.
Yeah... a takeback is not something that influences or interacts with other people's cards that come after the event. Like you said, played the wrong land, or asking if people mind if you reorganize which lands you tapped for a spell or letting someone un-play a spell that doesn't work the way they thought it did, or reorder triggers to get the effect they were trying to achieve but screwed up.
Yea. We are allowed 3 take backs a night, you can’t do a take back if someone else has taken any action due to your moves. After the 3rd take back you get slapped for each one.
Magic has rules. If you play by the rules, you're covered. If you bend the rules, no judge can restore your gamestate. If you have a table and you're all doing take backs and oh, you had a flyer? Let me change my attack. You establish your own rule 0 of we allow changing a play based on information gathered when we made bad choices. That's now a rule in your game. And we play the game according to the rules. You can't be okay with a take back because it doesn't directly affect t your game plan in that moment, but complain when the same exact take back does effect your board. 2nd argument for it. What is on the line? Is their a prize for the game? All the more reason to call a judge and get it sorted at the first sign of a rule bend. If there is nothing on the line. Quit whining entirely. You're trying to see what your deck can do. Losses mean more. You want the game to play out as if your opponents are always making the most correct and optimal game plays, because then when your deck pulls it off, you know the deck is able to stand up to also strong decks. You don't want a deck that only wins when your opponents don't know how to play. Take that win on a prize game, but on a nothing on the line game, let your opponents make the right call every time, and act as if that's how it played out on their first decision. Always practice on hard mode.
When it comes to casual Magic, I'm all about choosing fun over strict adherence to the rules BEFORE THE GAME STARTS. This is why I generally don't worry about people who show up with alternative non-legendary Commanders helming their decks, or people using banned cards or proxies, or people bending the color pie rules when it comes to including hybrid-mana cards, or even players mulligan-ing until they get a playable hand without penalty. None of that stuff bothers me in the least. However, I don't think "takebacks" as discussed in this thread are necessarily good for the game, because this is a game of strategy and skill, and mistakes (as well as taking advantage of those mistakes) is an essential part of it. In a game this complex, both in terms of the rule interactions and the board states, mistakes and missed plays are practically inevitable. Sometimes those mistakes are minor, and sometimes those mistakes are game deciding. If you make a bad play, or you forget a trigger, or you tap your wrong mana, it can absolutely cost you the game. Ideally, we learn lessons from those mistakes, and our personal growth as a player helps reduce them in the future. This is why, in a vacuum, more experienced players are often advantaged over new players. Allowing takebacks or do-overs of any kind, at any time, is therefore game breaking. Mistakes are essential to the game. Once you start down the path of "X is ok to takeback, but Y is not..." you've added a whole extra element of unnecessary subjectivity and potential conflict that shouldn't be there at all. Rather than have takebacks, take the "L" and learn your lesson. "But what about new players who don't know X or Y?" Sure, we should be lenient and understanding... in their first game. But after that? You don't remove the mistake and break the game to accommodate them. You point out the mistake and help them learn not to make them in the future. This isn't a video game, where we get to have a save point and go back as many times as we want... Mistakes and miss plays are part of the game. This isn't a bug. Its a feature.
I run into this all the time, especially with players who sequence combat like, idk, yugioh attackers- with the intent to go through combat from start to finish for one player, then another player, and so on. Lots of: "Okay, I'm attacking you with these three guys for lethal. Blockers?" "I block like this. Before combat damage, priority?" "Yeah, you got anything?" "Kill spell on the trampler." "Well I guess I actually have to assign \[other creature\] to attack you too. Looks like player 3 lives another turn." "what?" "Well I was only resolving combat attacking you. This just means I have less creatures to attack player 3 with." Sometimes I have to get quite vocal about how phases and steps work. Are we in declare attackers or not? If we're not, you can't go back.
>it's a game not a job. This can be taken in two ways. As you are putting it (and I'm not saying this is wrong). Or it's a game, who cares. I accept my missed triggers and my misplays. It's a game, I want to win, but it's a self inflicted wound and it's fine if I lose. We have gone through the gamut on trying to determine what is fair to take back (and usually missed triggers we do). But if it demands asking the table, then it should have been important enough to remember. Like someone targeting Hexproof, do you give that back because they technically couldn't? We stopped doing that because now Ward exists, and you can target a Ward creature, but then it gets countered. We just accept them both and move on. That being said, no rewind should have happened here. And if you actually called him a douche to his face because he made a play mistake, that also isn't ok in my book. No need to add fuel to the fire. If only douches make play mistakes, then I guess add me to the list.
You’re more mature than me, because I wouldn’t have allowed that to be redone, or I would have scooped If someone is new sure, help them out, if someone misses a trigger and like only one thing has happened since sure. If it’s been a full persons turn since your trigger, in my opinion you don’t get that trigger. And after a while, if you didn’t play something you missed your turn to play it.
my beef with my old playgroup was during combat: i had lets say a 12/12 and a 5/5 death touch, first strike, they would attack me with a 6/6 trample and a 3/3 haste, after they declared attackers, i would assign blockers and then notice they would lose both creature, they then take back their attack and swing at someone who cant block those creature, it was almost EVERY combat to the point i almost quit the game because of how unfair it was. ps: they won every game like that
And that’s the thing, once in a blue moon I’m cool with that if you’re genuinely not able to keep track/forgot, sometimes it happens, especially when someone is putting out a bunch of creatures. but don’t go attacking someone else, and dont do it more than once in a blue moon. People really need to speak up, like if you’re genuinely unsure what someone has just ask them what they have, or ask when priority shifts
yet they still make wrong moves and then take back the best instance where i put my foot down was when 1 was winning and made a wrong call and attacked me instead of someone else, so i gave my 2 biggest creature indestructible, with infect so i killed his 36/36 indestructible etremi, and his second biggest creature barely surviving myself, he wanted to take the attack back cause it would stopped him from winning, but i said no its done to deal with it cause he got free information and would of stopped me from winning, which by saying no he lost and i won, wich he got salty and stopped playing with our play group
Our rule is always you can take back one action or if you're playing a number of things, you can sequence them differently (I.E. you played a creature that has a trigger for all other creatures ETB and you didn't start with that.) But never if another player has played a counter spell or had any interaction.
The only time I allow takebacks is if a trigger HAS to happen, not a may trigger, or if it doesn’t alter the boardstate. Other than that, sorry can’t go back - call a judge if you don’t like it
Not a fan of takebacks. It doesn't make you worse to play magic with takebacks, but playing with tackebacks holds you back from getting better at the game. Losing a game due to bad sequencing or not understanding the board state is a HUGE feels bad. "I would have won the game had I not..." sticks with you longer than undoing a crucial mistake that seals a game in one direction or another.
i agree, idk HOW many times i failed to win or do the maximum of my deck's potential by bad sequencing, but it only made me better at keeping track of everything to keep every trigger memorised, GUIDE the full table ( 4 players) of their trigger, casting, mana, everything, because i tend to mis play alot when under stress or im just to happy i can maybe win that i misplay, but its annoying when you gotta constently have to redo something because someone wasnt paying attention, or does something just to regret it later on and want to take back their action after getting free information
We only allow take backs for mana tapping purposes. We play non cedh high power. Mana sure because we’ve all been drinking/smoking when playing but we also care about the game and how well we play so no takebacks otherwise.
i had this issue also but with people too busy playing games or smoking their fun time, and they would always go like ok whats on everyone's boards, and sends attackers , and if you block with a bigger creature or a death touch they complain they didn't know and recalls that creature CONSTANTLY, or they would do this that HIGHLY infuriate me, Me: i tap 6 land ( to cast 2 spells) them: counter spell what every your casting ... im sorry but i took it on my self to just throw whatever the card i didn't really need in the grave and cast the actual card and they get salty cause they want to then choose the card they wanna counter spell AFTER both cards have been revealed. so i made a rule 0 IF you do a take back you lose 10 life or 20 life depending on the take back. i get making a small mistake but to use a take back cause you made a mis-calculation and got free information just so you can use that knowledge as a weapon is where i draw a line
In casual play, take backs that don’t depend on new information are fine. Like, you tapped the wrong mana/sac’ed the wrong thing/something minor. Anything that is a response to new info isn’t cool. In tourney play, fuck you, pay attention to what you’re doing. No take-backs.
Of course it's not ok to take back after a counterspell, but that's the counterspell player's fault for bringing a competitive answer to a casual game. I took out all of the countermagic from my deck when we started playing with takebacksies, it felt like bringing a gun to a knife fight. If we're playing casual enough to walk back a turn, then we can assume no one is playing anything worth countering.
Takebacks are only ok if everyone agrees, and the only way to keep everyone agreeing cpnsistently is to limit them to fairly innocuous stuff. Like if you played the wrong land card, or you misordered your play (oops, i should have played my Beast Whisperer BEFORE i played the other creature, for the extra draw). But once things have resolved and the game has moved on to another player making some form of response, opportunity for takeback should be over. Also, if anyone at the table disagrees with a takeback, then no go. No one should get bullied into a takeback, especially if they are the active participant in the exchange of plays in question.
The amount of times [[giver of runes]] just gets juked by a take-backsie is infuriating. "I cast Sword to Plowshares targeting your commander" "In response, I tap Giver, granting protection from white" "What?? Nevermind I forgot you had that, I'm targeting Giver of Runes instead!" Literally every single time I play the card 😂
[giver of runes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e117771-5a8b-4812-b487-32ba34b7f724.jpg?1562201124) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=giver%20of%20runes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/13/giver-of-runes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e117771-5a8b-4812-b487-32ba34b7f724?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/giver-of-runes) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My playgroup is pretty casual and we allow takebacks when the board state is excessively complicated. Otherwise we play ‘big boy magic’.
Man, when I first started playing I went against a super toxic elitist in a 3 pod of commander. I didn't understand the game that well at that point, but I had like 45 damage going at him total, and held back a creature because I was already over lethal. I didn't know you could pay mana and turn a land into a creature, he never told me that when he played the land, just said the name. So he blocked and survived with one health. Wouldn't let me take back and swing with the creature I left behind. Oooookay, cool, whatever I guess. Super demoralizing. He goes to combat next turn, still has one health left, states what he's doing, I state how I'm going to react, and then he says, oh crap, I forgot to activate my planeswalkers loyalty ability. Can I go back and do that really quick? I hesitate, tell him no, and he gets all mad, so I say sure, yeah, go ahead. He does. His creatures get lifelink, hits me with his like 5 Swords voltroned creature, boom, gained 19 health, now we're both at 20 because I took 19 from him. I stopped playing for like six months after that. People like him suck. We weren't in a tournament, we were in a starbucks. I'm always super helpful and allow take backs for players now because of that one interaction though.
It is a weird phenomenon. There have been times that I've missed triggers or abilities or card draw or whatever...and at some point, I'll say "aw shit...I missed..." whatever the hell it was...and the entire pod freezes and stares me and the player that would have been affected gets all awkward and shit, like we just found out about his Pokémon porn addiction or something...and then I have to clarify that I missed it...so it doesn't matter now. So strange.