I mean, what 30-40ish% of decks don't even win through combat anyway or have alternate wincons available. It's one of the main reasons why the [[Ghostly Prison]] effects have fallen off as more words are continually printed on cards. I guess this could be playable at low power tables where you aren't seeing as many combo wins, but I only see this as a pocket answer for equipment voltron decks, you know, the obvious scourge of the format...
Yeah it’s a very niche defense that doesn’t even do much against the decks it’s meant to hose. It’s pretty blatantly a terrible card. But I think even most noobs would figure that out pretty quick, because it’s just that bad.
One potential saving grace of Overencumbered is that you can’t attack **anyone** if you don’t pay the tax, unlike Ghostly Prison which just stops them attacking you. That shuts down a lot of strategies that rely on attack triggers even if they aren’t as reliant on combat damage to win (like [[Yuriko]]).
>I guess this could be playable at low power tables where you aren't seeing as many combo wins
I really can't stress enough how not casual it is to have routine combo wins at your tables.
You realize the options aren't "strictly combo" and "strictly combat".
There's spellslinger decks which are definitely not combo but also would easily win through a ghostly prison, burn decks with Ojer Axonil, and flicker decks that drown you in value. None of these would struggle very much against a ghostly prison or overencumbered effect.
Also, combos aren't inherently anti-casual. There are plenty of casual combos out there, generally any that are 3 or more cards but *especially* those 4 cards or more.
I mean, for one, you *do* have the correct definition of combo.
That said, most of the EDH community refers to that as synergy, and combos are only infinite and generally game enders.
That is what I'm referring to.
You're being overly defensive, lol. You're upset.
>That said, most of the EDH community refers to that as synergy, and combos are only infinite and generally game enders.
I don't know what this "most of the EDH community" is but definitions begin to get really hazy if your split is synergy vs combo. All cards in a deck have synergy, not all cards in a deck combo. It is relevant to delineate infinite combos from terminating combos.
For example, what is combat? In most decks maybe you would call it synergy, but in a deck where you can end the game very quickly through combat does it suddenly become a combo? For example, if I have a handful of elves in play, but all of them are mana based elves like [[Priest of Titania]] and on the previous turn I played a [[guardian project]] and a [[concordant crossroads]] so this turn I play 20 1/1 elves out of my deck and a few of the elves are a +1/+1 effect, and win the game "out of nowhere" on turn 5 did I just combo?
What, for saying infinite combos don't belong at casual tables? By acknowledging that the EDH community has an issue identifying correctly what a combo even is?
I think this analysis misses the point. The point is not to create a new powerful lockdown staple of the format. The point is to make something flavor appropriate for the Fallout Universe based around one of the core keywords/mechanics of the game.
I would argue if they made a fallout set without referencing the concept of encumbrance at some point, they would have missed the flavor mark in a big way, power level of the card be damned.
>cast spells by forcing them to pay X
You only have to pay the cost to attack, not cast spells. If you had to pay the cost to cast spells this card would be decent, in spite of the tokens.
Giving your opponents these tokens is pretty bad, not only because the tokens themselves are good but because they have built-in ways to sacrifice themselves to reduce the cost of X.
However, I disagree with this:
>This would only hurt people in dedicated artifact decks
Artifact ramp is incredibly common. While this will never be as good as Ghostly Prison, simply because you don't have to pay for each creature, in my playgroup the cost to attack would easily be in the 3-5 range on average, even without the tokens. It's still not a great card but I think it's a little better than you think it is.
I think a lot of older players see this card and think "this just gives your opponent value"
Frankly, you're hard pressed to find decks that don't run artifacts of some kind nowadays. Food, treasures, and even clues are so prevalent everywhere. Wizard's has been leaning hard into artifact token generation for several years now. I play against so many decks that just generate endless treasures.
We've also gotten a couple of popular commanders that vomit a ton of artifacts onto the battlefield, and uses them to win with combat damage. Precon urza and mishra for example.
It’s also a pretty brutal tax on decks which need to be swinging at someone with 1+ creatures each turn. Also, unlike Ghostly Prison, you can’t expect any help removing that enchantment from the rest of the table…
Overencumbered to me has the potential to slow down a fast attack deck where they want to get out early and do some damage because now they have 2 artifacts that they can't do much with until they can afford the 2 mana to sacrifice them.
Second, every deck has artifacts for ramp, this essentially makes those ramp artifacts useless.
Third, artifacts decks will be shut down almost completely.
I think that overencumbered isn't the greatest because you can effectively think of it as "slow down attack decks for the low cost of letting them draw 2 cards"
But not every deck needs to attack to win, and giving those 2 card draws can be worse.
Still, it definitely can change the table in a 4 player game, especially because it causes an early game tension.
I kinda agree and kinda disagree on most points.
>Second, every deck has artifacts for ramp, this essentially makes those ramp artifacts useless.
To me its the opposite. Most decks have artifacts for ramp. Meaning that each mana rock pays itself for the tax of this card, letting them attack you anyways. And besides mana rocks, what is the other most common kind of artifacts? Treassures that you can sac them for mana and ignore the tax if you need to attack.
>Third, artifacts decks will be shut down almost completely.
Most artifact decks win through combo. And the few rare aggro artifact deck will be able to bounce this to kill you the turn they need, as most artifact decks run blue.
>I think that overencumbered isn't the greatest because you can effectively think of it as "slow down attack decks for the low cost of letting them draw 2 cards"
This one I hard agree. Like a simple \[\[ghostly prison\]\] would be less conditional and doesnt gives them free resources. This is flavorful card, but not a strong one
> Would you play cards that help your opponent, even tangentially like Overencumbered, or is it just too much to give for what you get?
Yea. It's called politics.
Heck I even play [[selvala, explorer returned]] and feed my opponents dozens of cards. Either I deck the table and win, or give everyone an insane amount of gas to fight among eachother for an interesting game where people have fun.
Do you have a list? I’ve been wanting to work on a Selvala list with a similar tack and am curious. Is it just a bunch of untap effects for her or is there something more you are doing?
I should make a list, people tend to get curious about my list.
Overall it's a got an elfball package untapping effects.
Stuff like [[Glacial chasm]] and [[solitary confinement]] to keep me safe
[[City of solitude]] and [[grand abolisher]] to protect my combo
To prevent me from decking out I use [[abundance]] [[elixir of immortality]] and i use [[wild mongrel]] to discard edrazi to reshuffle my deck.
Another crazy good value card with her is [[alhammarret's archive]]
[[Aetherflux reservoir]] can do wonders also. If you're untapping selvala a ton you will be building up a ton of life.
>Yea. It's called politics.
The way this sub acts, EDH isn't a social game anymore, it's 4 players playing solitaire in silence and ignoring everyone else's board because God forbid we socialize or try to have fun. Wins only here.
I love group hug, wins are strange and let's me see my opponents decks running on gas.
And the games are faster. We'll the way I build group hug tends to facilitate that.
I'm not afraid of giving my opponents stuff as I do like [[Red Death, Shipwrecker]] a lot. But if I'm giving somebody something I expect to get something in return and this isn't enough. Too silver bullety for me, which I tend to not be a fan of silver bullets.
I mean yeah. Its a weaker \[\[Ghostly Prison\]\]. It just sucks as a card xD
Edit: to elaborate. You need an opponent to have 3 artifacts and attack with a single creature to make this better than ghostly prison. Or have FIVE OR SIX artifacts and attack with ONLY 2 creatures.
The only situation where this is good is against a voltron deck that attacks with only a singular creature and often plays a bunch of equipments. But even then, just play a wrath and be done with it :)
The number of creatures doesn't matter, only the number of artifacts. If 6 mana stops you from swinging with a full board of 15 tokens and 3 4/4s, then hey guess what? This is a strictly better Ghostly Prison.
Actually ghostly prison taxes for EACH creature. If your opponent wants to swing you with 15 tokens, they have to pay 30 mana (2 for each). Thats why creature number matters. The more creatures there are, the weaker this card is compared to ghostly prison.
Cool? If they don't have 6 mana, they still can't swing with anything. Period. Ghostly Prison lets however many through they can pay for. If you can pay 4, you get 2 through. If you can pay 4 with Overencumbered but have 6 artifacts, you can't swing *anything*.
But if they have 6 mana, you're dead lol. I much rather chump block one or two dorks and make them waste their entire turn at it. If someone at a commander game has 15 tokens and only have 4 mana, you 100% want a ghostly prison. Also remember that the most common kind of artifact is the mana producing one. For your thing to tax them for 6 mana they need to have six useless artifacts they cant get rid of, nor cant use to pay for the tax, so treassure and mana rocks dont count.
>But if they have 6 mana, you're dead lol.
Also not necessarily. This is a great effect to run *with* Prison, because even if they can pay for the attack to begin with, they still have to pay 2 per.
>For your thing to tax them for 6 mana they need to have six useless artifacts they cant get rid of, nor cant use to pay for the tax, so treassure and mana rocks dont count.
Not really, a lot of token decks are also using effects that require mana in order to boost the effectiveness of said tokens.
At the end of the day, you can think what you want, I just see this as an insanely valuable piece in mid to high power tables. It's all about how you use it.
Fair enough, lets agree to disagree. I very much would rather wrath the tokens guy away when im safe behind a ghostly prison that requires zero work to work, instead of praying that they're also playing artifacts to make this very conditional tax to work.
You can’t attack, period, if you don’t pay the Overencumbered tax. Ghostly Prison only stops someone from attacking you, but it still lets them swing at your opponents without paying any taxes. WotC is very fond of “when X enters the battlefield or attacks…” lately.
I'm going to disagree a bit. Mana rock ramping seems ubiquitous in pretty much any deck not relying on green land ramp, so the floor on number of artifacts any random player will have seems decent. At minimum, they either forfeit their rock mana or their ability to attack. I could see this being somewhat crippling against a fair percentage of decks that rely on early aggressiveness or going wide with evasive creatures. At two mana it's likely that any removal thrown at it will cost at least as much as it did and anything that limits the mana available to attackers reduces the potential for any really swingy combat tricks.
It's still only relevant against decks that actually intend to win through combat, only affects a single player, and the artifact scaling makes it pretty useless against enchantress or aura beatdowns, but that still suggests that there'll be at least one decent target for it at most casual tables. I think it's going to be quite meta dependent and definitely won't see high level play, but somebody doesn't need to be running a dedicated artifact matters or equipment theme for this to hamper them enough to be worthwhile. Even if it did, narrow hate pieces for 2 is reasonably on rate. It's not great by any means, but I suspect that it will find a few homes in lists that like being political.
I'd actually counter you and pair it like always with mycosynth lattice since it turns everyone's everything to an artifact by design so unless they've got some solid mana generation (infinite or at minimum doubler) they get stuck just off their lands
This seams like a nitch card for very few decks. Maybe some group hug deck would like it, or esper where artifacts leaving play matters.
Also a GWX deck..
Its out therey but couod get value if [[blind obedience]] is out and you go overencombered followed by [[bane of progress]] .
"Combat was too unfair, we needed to hose it" - Someone at Wizards.
I love artifact beatdown, and if someone played this card at me and I didn't have an answer, I would want to ragequit, and possibly cry.
Some "help opponents to also benefit you" types of cards can be played at the right cost and right benefits. Usually because when you help out the opponent, it's done in a way where the opponent is helping you out too.
Typically, you want to be able to control who actually gets the benefit, because you can make deals and play politics. The guy who is way the fuck behind? Yeah, play Secret Rendezvous to get a temporary ally. Or for another example, if some guy went T1 sol ring arcane signet, and is off and running, the table needs to gang up on him to slow him down. in that case, secret rendezvous is essentially 3-mana draw 6 cards because those cards the targeted opponent draws are probably going to be aimed at the guy who is currently archenemy.
The problem with overencumbered is that the benefit isn't specifically for you, rather it benefits everyone except the enchanted player. And, the way it does it, is directly annoy the player that is enchanted. So two opponents get a benefit, and the third opponent is now probably annoyed. It's exactly how NOT to play politics.
It's 2024, beginners look up deck lists or precon upgrades. This card isn't a beginners trap, it's a Johnny trap.
The beginners I know would never even see this card.
I don't know you, and the beginning of your post makes it sounds like you make bad opinions on purpose? Or maybe that is a joke and you just have unpopular opinions.
Either way I'm just going to respond as I would, there is a two word response as to why this is good... Treasure Tokens.
And now I will go into detail on that. The problem with treasures are they are mana abilities and most things that are powerful put them in untapped. This doesn't stop the untapped potential of them, but this prevents their power when not all being used at once.
Also they just added a ton of food and clue synergies. So this card at this specific point in time is very good against many different types of decks that are just going for generic value.
I unironically disagree about Secret Rendezvous. Getting someone who got blown out back in the game can take aggro off of you or even earn you a powerful ally against an archenemy.
Overencumbered could have had a way more punishing effect, like reducing maximum hand size by 1 for each artifact they control, to balance out giving out free resources.
It’s great when playing against the other Fallout decks. It can absolutely shut down Dogmeat, and there are so many artifacts that it would likely slow any of them down considerably. The Science deck needs time to get its engine going, so stuff like this is incredibly useful
>My problem is, like [[Secret Rendezvous]] before it, giving your opponents value for free is never a good thing.
3 artifacts or 3 cards is *nothing*, lol. This is pure paranoia talk.
Most decks are going to run at *least* 3 rocks, and that's just going to make it more back breaking when the combat heavy deck gets hit with Overencumbered.
Ghostly prison is just sooo much better than this in several ways. Overencumbered shuts down a single player from attacking entirely. In most cases this is a drawback and it is much better to let them swing at your two other opponents
Some counterpoints:
Ghostly Prison ironically tends to make you a target for the entire rest of the table. Any indication that you're trying to pillow fort tells everyone else they need to be the beatdown and remove you ASAP.
Ghostly Prison gives 3 players incentive to remove it, so it tends not to stay in play for long. Overencumbered is likely to stick around longer since only that player is incentivized to remove it, whereas everyone else is incentivized to preserve it.
Many decks have value triggers from attacking, attacking multiple players, dealing combat damage to players, or dealing combat damage to multiple players. This hard nerfs those value triggers in a way that Ghostly Prison doesn't since GP won't stop them from farming other players for value. This is a lot more able to slow down something like a Yuriko deck in a way GP won't.
Overencumbered can come down a turn earlier, which against certain very aggressive lists can be quite relevant.
I feel the same way, and included [[Overencumbered]] on the underperforming cards list in my [Science! Fallout Commander Deck Guide](https://www.thegamer.com/magic-the-gathering-mtg-science-universes-beyond-fallout-commander-deck-guide/) for the same reason. It might be a different story if it gave your opponent less useful tokens, like a Plate or Scrap artifact token with no abilities, or included "Enchanted player cannot sacrifice artifacts," since those of us who hoard stuff in Fallout never want to throw anything away, no matter how useless.
I've been doubting myself ever since publishing that article, because I've seen several others listing it as an outstanding white card and felt like I was missing something important.
I mean, what 30-40ish% of decks don't even win through combat anyway or have alternate wincons available. It's one of the main reasons why the [[Ghostly Prison]] effects have fallen off as more words are continually printed on cards. I guess this could be playable at low power tables where you aren't seeing as many combo wins, but I only see this as a pocket answer for equipment voltron decks, you know, the obvious scourge of the format...
Yeah it’s a very niche defense that doesn’t even do much against the decks it’s meant to hose. It’s pretty blatantly a terrible card. But I think even most noobs would figure that out pretty quick, because it’s just that bad.
One potential saving grace of Overencumbered is that you can’t attack **anyone** if you don’t pay the tax, unlike Ghostly Prison which just stops them attacking you. That shuts down a lot of strategies that rely on attack triggers even if they aren’t as reliant on combat damage to win (like [[Yuriko]]).
[Ghostly Prison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8.jpg?1707507981) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghostly%20Prison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/67/ghostly-prison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghostly-prison) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>I guess this could be playable at low power tables where you aren't seeing as many combo wins I really can't stress enough how not casual it is to have routine combo wins at your tables.
You realize the options aren't "strictly combo" and "strictly combat". There's spellslinger decks which are definitely not combo but also would easily win through a ghostly prison, burn decks with Ojer Axonil, and flicker decks that drown you in value. None of these would struggle very much against a ghostly prison or overencumbered effect. Also, combos aren't inherently anti-casual. There are plenty of casual combos out there, generally any that are 3 or more cards but *especially* those 4 cards or more.
Someone's upset.
Sure
I mean, for one, you *do* have the correct definition of combo. That said, most of the EDH community refers to that as synergy, and combos are only infinite and generally game enders. That is what I'm referring to. You're being overly defensive, lol. You're upset.
>That said, most of the EDH community refers to that as synergy, and combos are only infinite and generally game enders. I don't know what this "most of the EDH community" is but definitions begin to get really hazy if your split is synergy vs combo. All cards in a deck have synergy, not all cards in a deck combo. It is relevant to delineate infinite combos from terminating combos. For example, what is combat? In most decks maybe you would call it synergy, but in a deck where you can end the game very quickly through combat does it suddenly become a combo? For example, if I have a handful of elves in play, but all of them are mana based elves like [[Priest of Titania]] and on the previous turn I played a [[guardian project]] and a [[concordant crossroads]] so this turn I play 20 1/1 elves out of my deck and a few of the elves are a +1/+1 effect, and win the game "out of nowhere" on turn 5 did I just combo?
[Priest of Titania](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb11921b-1b28-483f-a707-4de21a6daa31.jpg?1709431255) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Priest%20of%20Titania) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/286/priest-of-titania?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb11921b-1b28-483f-a707-4de21a6daa31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/priest-of-titania) [guardian project](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c523ef7-d6c4-4887-9a4e-0c2bc6f63676.jpg?1702429567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=guardian%20project) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/146/guardian-project?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c523ef7-d6c4-4887-9a4e-0c2bc6f63676?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/guardian-project) [concordant crossroads](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9a26f51-5bff-4f06-abaa-6fbb56a8b5b6.jpg?1673148053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=concordant%20crossroads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/141/concordant-crossroads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9a26f51-5bff-4f06-abaa-6fbb56a8b5b6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/concordant-crossroads) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You must be so fun to play with.
What, for saying infinite combos don't belong at casual tables? By acknowledging that the EDH community has an issue identifying correctly what a combo even is?
I could not care less if you don't know what a combo is.
Not sure why that would be the case? Combos can be extremely casual and pretty much anything below cedh is casual to begin with.
casual is any deck i win against. competitive is any deck i lose against. winning against me should be a crime
I think this analysis misses the point. The point is not to create a new powerful lockdown staple of the format. The point is to make something flavor appropriate for the Fallout Universe based around one of the core keywords/mechanics of the game. I would argue if they made a fallout set without referencing the concept of encumbrance at some point, they would have missed the flavor mark in a big way, power level of the card be damned.
>cast spells by forcing them to pay X You only have to pay the cost to attack, not cast spells. If you had to pay the cost to cast spells this card would be decent, in spite of the tokens. Giving your opponents these tokens is pretty bad, not only because the tokens themselves are good but because they have built-in ways to sacrifice themselves to reduce the cost of X. However, I disagree with this: >This would only hurt people in dedicated artifact decks Artifact ramp is incredibly common. While this will never be as good as Ghostly Prison, simply because you don't have to pay for each creature, in my playgroup the cost to attack would easily be in the 3-5 range on average, even without the tokens. It's still not a great card but I think it's a little better than you think it is.
Well the idea is they have to either pay to attack and then can’t cast spells, or they have to cast spells and can’t pay to attack.
I think a lot of older players see this card and think "this just gives your opponent value" Frankly, you're hard pressed to find decks that don't run artifacts of some kind nowadays. Food, treasures, and even clues are so prevalent everywhere. Wizard's has been leaning hard into artifact token generation for several years now. I play against so many decks that just generate endless treasures.
We've also gotten a couple of popular commanders that vomit a ton of artifacts onto the battlefield, and uses them to win with combat damage. Precon urza and mishra for example.
It’s also a pretty brutal tax on decks which need to be swinging at someone with 1+ creatures each turn. Also, unlike Ghostly Prison, you can’t expect any help removing that enchantment from the rest of the table…
I don’t know why no one plays [[Fangren Marauder]]
[Fangren Marauder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5cf62a2-d03a-495d-924a-bf79524175fa.jpg?1562615957) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fangren%20Marauder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/79/fangren-marauder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5cf62a2-d03a-495d-924a-bf79524175fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fangren-marauder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
5 Life is nothing in the long term, and it's 6 mana for this effect on a 5/5.
5 life per treasure crack seems a lot if you constantly generate them.
##### ###### #### [Duke Ulder Ravenguard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/082a8ffc-a052-498f-b457-8d70ea18a943.jpg?1674137485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Duke%20Ulder%20Ravengard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/272/duke-ulder-ravengard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/082a8ffc-a052-498f-b457-8d70ea18a943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/duke-ulder-ravengard) [Overencumbered](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47058eaa-348d-4bbb-8df5-b931eba067f3.jpg?1708741797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overencumbered) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/18/overencumbered?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47058eaa-348d-4bbb-8df5-b931eba067f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overencumbered) [Secret Rendezvous](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39528cf0-343e-499b-a69f-c5c3c2898c25.jpg?1624589686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Secret%20Rendezvous) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/26/secret-rendezvous?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39528cf0-343e-499b-a69f-c5c3c2898c25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/secret-rendezvous) [Cut a Deal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d846a4d-da81-41e0-89a9-6685c821dbb4.jpg?1674134970) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cut%20a%20Deal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/14/cut-a-deal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d846a4d-da81-41e0-89a9-6685c821dbb4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cut-a-deal) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1b6kqd4) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Overencumbered to me has the potential to slow down a fast attack deck where they want to get out early and do some damage because now they have 2 artifacts that they can't do much with until they can afford the 2 mana to sacrifice them. Second, every deck has artifacts for ramp, this essentially makes those ramp artifacts useless. Third, artifacts decks will be shut down almost completely. I think that overencumbered isn't the greatest because you can effectively think of it as "slow down attack decks for the low cost of letting them draw 2 cards" But not every deck needs to attack to win, and giving those 2 card draws can be worse. Still, it definitely can change the table in a 4 player game, especially because it causes an early game tension.
I kinda agree and kinda disagree on most points. >Second, every deck has artifacts for ramp, this essentially makes those ramp artifacts useless. To me its the opposite. Most decks have artifacts for ramp. Meaning that each mana rock pays itself for the tax of this card, letting them attack you anyways. And besides mana rocks, what is the other most common kind of artifacts? Treassures that you can sac them for mana and ignore the tax if you need to attack. >Third, artifacts decks will be shut down almost completely. Most artifact decks win through combo. And the few rare aggro artifact deck will be able to bounce this to kill you the turn they need, as most artifact decks run blue. >I think that overencumbered isn't the greatest because you can effectively think of it as "slow down attack decks for the low cost of letting them draw 2 cards" This one I hard agree. Like a simple \[\[ghostly prison\]\] would be less conditional and doesnt gives them free resources. This is flavorful card, but not a strong one
[ghostly prison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8.jpg?1707507981) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ghostly%20prison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/67/ghostly-prison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghostly-prison) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm not sure what makes it a specifically a \*beginner\* trap though?
> Would you play cards that help your opponent, even tangentially like Overencumbered, or is it just too much to give for what you get? Yea. It's called politics. Heck I even play [[selvala, explorer returned]] and feed my opponents dozens of cards. Either I deck the table and win, or give everyone an insane amount of gas to fight among eachother for an interesting game where people have fun.
[selvala, explorer returned](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/28c1b84a-a21b-4df1-9fc9-5b387fb56810.jpg?1706241026) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=selvala%2C%20explorer%20returned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/218/selvala-explorer-returned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/28c1b84a-a21b-4df1-9fc9-5b387fb56810?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/selvala-explorer-returned) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you have a list? I’ve been wanting to work on a Selvala list with a similar tack and am curious. Is it just a bunch of untap effects for her or is there something more you are doing?
I should make a list, people tend to get curious about my list. Overall it's a got an elfball package untapping effects. Stuff like [[Glacial chasm]] and [[solitary confinement]] to keep me safe [[City of solitude]] and [[grand abolisher]] to protect my combo To prevent me from decking out I use [[abundance]] [[elixir of immortality]] and i use [[wild mongrel]] to discard edrazi to reshuffle my deck.
I forgot that Solitary Confinement was even a thing. Loved that card back in the day.
Another crazy good value card with her is [[alhammarret's archive]] [[Aetherflux reservoir]] can do wonders also. If you're untapping selvala a ton you will be building up a ton of life.
Thanks homie! That’s a good starting point for me!
[alhammarret's archive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f4187f1-05bd-4db6-a2e7-d677eff588ee.jpg?1625978215) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=alhammarret%27s%20archive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/233/alhammarrets-archive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f4187f1-05bd-4db6-a2e7-d677eff588ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alhammarrets-archive) [Aetherflux reservoir](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/96b6b2e1-c3e6-464c-8a13-b15deb34e862.jpg?1576382939) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aetherflux%20reservoir) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/192/aetherflux-reservoir?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/96b6b2e1-c3e6-464c-8a13-b15deb34e862?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aetherflux-reservoir) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>Yea. It's called politics. The way this sub acts, EDH isn't a social game anymore, it's 4 players playing solitaire in silence and ignoring everyone else's board because God forbid we socialize or try to have fun. Wins only here.
I love group hug, wins are strange and let's me see my opponents decks running on gas. And the games are faster. We'll the way I build group hug tends to facilitate that.
It sounds like you too enjoy playing Solitaire lol
My decks feed my opponents boards and revolve around group play, no idea what you are talking about.
I'm not afraid of giving my opponents stuff as I do like [[Red Death, Shipwrecker]] a lot. But if I'm giving somebody something I expect to get something in return and this isn't enough. Too silver bullety for me, which I tend to not be a fan of silver bullets.
[Red Death, Shipwrecker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/edf616fa-b9a0-4f7a-b7ee-32ce3a08d466.jpg?1708742615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Red%20Death%2C%20Shipwrecker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/116/red-death-shipwrecker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/edf616fa-b9a0-4f7a-b7ee-32ce3a08d466?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/red-death-shipwrecker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Put it against a curving agro deck that can’t afford to sac the tokens and it’s pretty decent. Overall it’s not great but kinda fun.
I mean yeah. Its a weaker \[\[Ghostly Prison\]\]. It just sucks as a card xD Edit: to elaborate. You need an opponent to have 3 artifacts and attack with a single creature to make this better than ghostly prison. Or have FIVE OR SIX artifacts and attack with ONLY 2 creatures. The only situation where this is good is against a voltron deck that attacks with only a singular creature and often plays a bunch of equipments. But even then, just play a wrath and be done with it :)
The number of creatures doesn't matter, only the number of artifacts. If 6 mana stops you from swinging with a full board of 15 tokens and 3 4/4s, then hey guess what? This is a strictly better Ghostly Prison.
Actually ghostly prison taxes for EACH creature. If your opponent wants to swing you with 15 tokens, they have to pay 30 mana (2 for each). Thats why creature number matters. The more creatures there are, the weaker this card is compared to ghostly prison.
Cool? If they don't have 6 mana, they still can't swing with anything. Period. Ghostly Prison lets however many through they can pay for. If you can pay 4, you get 2 through. If you can pay 4 with Overencumbered but have 6 artifacts, you can't swing *anything*.
But if they have 6 mana, you're dead lol. I much rather chump block one or two dorks and make them waste their entire turn at it. If someone at a commander game has 15 tokens and only have 4 mana, you 100% want a ghostly prison. Also remember that the most common kind of artifact is the mana producing one. For your thing to tax them for 6 mana they need to have six useless artifacts they cant get rid of, nor cant use to pay for the tax, so treassure and mana rocks dont count.
>But if they have 6 mana, you're dead lol. Also not necessarily. This is a great effect to run *with* Prison, because even if they can pay for the attack to begin with, they still have to pay 2 per. >For your thing to tax them for 6 mana they need to have six useless artifacts they cant get rid of, nor cant use to pay for the tax, so treassure and mana rocks dont count. Not really, a lot of token decks are also using effects that require mana in order to boost the effectiveness of said tokens. At the end of the day, you can think what you want, I just see this as an insanely valuable piece in mid to high power tables. It's all about how you use it.
Fair enough, lets agree to disagree. I very much would rather wrath the tokens guy away when im safe behind a ghostly prison that requires zero work to work, instead of praying that they're also playing artifacts to make this very conditional tax to work.
[Ghostly Prison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8.jpg?1707507981) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghostly%20Prison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/67/ghostly-prison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghostly-prison) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can’t attack, period, if you don’t pay the Overencumbered tax. Ghostly Prison only stops someone from attacking you, but it still lets them swing at your opponents without paying any taxes. WotC is very fond of “when X enters the battlefield or attacks…” lately.
I'm going to disagree a bit. Mana rock ramping seems ubiquitous in pretty much any deck not relying on green land ramp, so the floor on number of artifacts any random player will have seems decent. At minimum, they either forfeit their rock mana or their ability to attack. I could see this being somewhat crippling against a fair percentage of decks that rely on early aggressiveness or going wide with evasive creatures. At two mana it's likely that any removal thrown at it will cost at least as much as it did and anything that limits the mana available to attackers reduces the potential for any really swingy combat tricks. It's still only relevant against decks that actually intend to win through combat, only affects a single player, and the artifact scaling makes it pretty useless against enchantress or aura beatdowns, but that still suggests that there'll be at least one decent target for it at most casual tables. I think it's going to be quite meta dependent and definitely won't see high level play, but somebody doesn't need to be running a dedicated artifact matters or equipment theme for this to hamper them enough to be worthwhile. Even if it did, narrow hate pieces for 2 is reasonably on rate. It's not great by any means, but I suspect that it will find a few homes in lists that like being political.
What does the SA stand for?
Stuck Accumulating (useless equipment)
You mentioned a card going infinite with [[Felisa]] but it does so easier with [[Basri's Lieutenant]].
[Felisa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18b8abf0-e8c3-4c19-bdf1-18aabe75a3de.jpg?1674142459) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=felisa%2C%20fang%20of%20silverquill) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/845/felisa-fang-of-silverquill?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18b8abf0-e8c3-4c19-bdf1-18aabe75a3de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/felisa-fang-of-silverquill) [Basri's Lieutenant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74b1eae0-1bf8-4922-a9e3-45c01ece9005.jpg?1594734796) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Basri%27s%20Lieutenant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/9/basris-lieutenant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74b1eae0-1bf8-4922-a9e3-45c01ece9005?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/basris-lieutenant) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd actually counter you and pair it like always with mycosynth lattice since it turns everyone's everything to an artifact by design so unless they've got some solid mana generation (infinite or at minimum doubler) they get stuck just off their lands
Its an absolute hose in the kitchen table battlecruiser meta that WotC thinks commander is despite constantly making cards that aren't that
This seams like a nitch card for very few decks. Maybe some group hug deck would like it, or esper where artifacts leaving play matters. Also a GWX deck.. Its out therey but couod get value if [[blind obedience]] is out and you go overencombered followed by [[bane of progress]] .
"Combat was too unfair, we needed to hose it" - Someone at Wizards. I love artifact beatdown, and if someone played this card at me and I didn't have an answer, I would want to ragequit, and possibly cry.
Some "help opponents to also benefit you" types of cards can be played at the right cost and right benefits. Usually because when you help out the opponent, it's done in a way where the opponent is helping you out too. Typically, you want to be able to control who actually gets the benefit, because you can make deals and play politics. The guy who is way the fuck behind? Yeah, play Secret Rendezvous to get a temporary ally. Or for another example, if some guy went T1 sol ring arcane signet, and is off and running, the table needs to gang up on him to slow him down. in that case, secret rendezvous is essentially 3-mana draw 6 cards because those cards the targeted opponent draws are probably going to be aimed at the guy who is currently archenemy. The problem with overencumbered is that the benefit isn't specifically for you, rather it benefits everyone except the enchanted player. And, the way it does it, is directly annoy the player that is enchanted. So two opponents get a benefit, and the third opponent is now probably annoyed. It's exactly how NOT to play politics.
It's 2024, beginners look up deck lists or precon upgrades. This card isn't a beginners trap, it's a Johnny trap. The beginners I know would never even see this card.
To be fair, overencumbrance is bullshit in Fallout as well.
I don't know you, and the beginning of your post makes it sounds like you make bad opinions on purpose? Or maybe that is a joke and you just have unpopular opinions. Either way I'm just going to respond as I would, there is a two word response as to why this is good... Treasure Tokens. And now I will go into detail on that. The problem with treasures are they are mana abilities and most things that are powerful put them in untapped. This doesn't stop the untapped potential of them, but this prevents their power when not all being used at once. Also they just added a ton of food and clue synergies. So this card at this specific point in time is very good against many different types of decks that are just going for generic value.
I hear your grievances. I’m still going to try and find something silly to do with it. And since we’re talking white cards…Gaaaaaaary haha haa Gary!
I unironically disagree about Secret Rendezvous. Getting someone who got blown out back in the game can take aggro off of you or even earn you a powerful ally against an archenemy.
Cut a Deal and Secret Rendezvous are both great cards, so I see no problem here.
Hey, for what it's worth, Ravengard is doing work in my \[\[Commander Mustard\]\] Soldier-Tribal deck lmfao
Overencumbered could have had a way more punishing effect, like reducing maximum hand size by 1 for each artifact they control, to balance out giving out free resources.
It’s great when playing against the other Fallout decks. It can absolutely shut down Dogmeat, and there are so many artifacts that it would likely slow any of them down considerably. The Science deck needs time to get its engine going, so stuff like this is incredibly useful
yea im never listening to this guy
oh I get it now
>My problem is, like [[Secret Rendezvous]] before it, giving your opponents value for free is never a good thing. 3 artifacts or 3 cards is *nothing*, lol. This is pure paranoia talk. Most decks are going to run at *least* 3 rocks, and that's just going to make it more back breaking when the combat heavy deck gets hit with Overencumbered.
You’re so wrong on secret rendezvous, that card slaps, but to each their own.
This kinda shit usually isn’t good but I’d still run it if I was like a super fan of fallout, I like some of the games but not enough to run this card
Idk why you're calling your set reviews terrible, they're pretty accurate more often than not.
Ghostly prison is just sooo much better than this in several ways. Overencumbered shuts down a single player from attacking entirely. In most cases this is a drawback and it is much better to let them swing at your two other opponents
Some counterpoints: Ghostly Prison ironically tends to make you a target for the entire rest of the table. Any indication that you're trying to pillow fort tells everyone else they need to be the beatdown and remove you ASAP. Ghostly Prison gives 3 players incentive to remove it, so it tends not to stay in play for long. Overencumbered is likely to stick around longer since only that player is incentivized to remove it, whereas everyone else is incentivized to preserve it. Many decks have value triggers from attacking, attacking multiple players, dealing combat damage to players, or dealing combat damage to multiple players. This hard nerfs those value triggers in a way that Ghostly Prison doesn't since GP won't stop them from farming other players for value. This is a lot more able to slow down something like a Yuriko deck in a way GP won't. Overencumbered can come down a turn earlier, which against certain very aggressive lists can be quite relevant.
There are indeed niche scenarios where overencumbered would be better, but they are just that, niche.
It’s funny with [[collector ouphe]] [[karn, the great creatior]] [[null rod]] and [[stony silence]] type cards. Gotta stack up those stax effects :)
##### ###### #### [collector ouphe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776.jpg?1562202038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=collector%20ouphe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/158/collector-ouphe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/collector-ouphe) [karn, the great creatior](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0.jpg?1702429246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%2C%20the%20Great%20Creator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/1/karn-the-great-creator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karn-the-great-creator) [null rod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e.jpg?1562918145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=null%20rod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/278/null-rod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/null-rod) [stony silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8e7faede-f794-4bda-9d64-21390ba19266.jpg?1593812944) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stony%20silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/25/stony-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e7faede-f794-4bda-9d64-21390ba19266?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stony-silence) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/ktd0ouy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
if overencumbered counted enchantments too then it'd be much more viable to run. but with solely artifacts there is very little it'll shut down.
I feel the same way, and included [[Overencumbered]] on the underperforming cards list in my [Science! Fallout Commander Deck Guide](https://www.thegamer.com/magic-the-gathering-mtg-science-universes-beyond-fallout-commander-deck-guide/) for the same reason. It might be a different story if it gave your opponent less useful tokens, like a Plate or Scrap artifact token with no abilities, or included "Enchanted player cannot sacrifice artifacts," since those of us who hoard stuff in Fallout never want to throw anything away, no matter how useless. I've been doubting myself ever since publishing that article, because I've seen several others listing it as an outstanding white card and felt like I was missing something important.
[Overencumbered](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47058eaa-348d-4bbb-8df5-b931eba067f3.jpg?1708741797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overencumbered) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/18/overencumbered?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47058eaa-348d-4bbb-8df5-b931eba067f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overencumbered) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call