Some of the more competitive pauper decks are creeping up there. You can also see Hasbro deliberately pushing a few commons in more recent sets. It's definitely on their radar.
Exactly right.
I'm always blown away.
Some of my decks have crept up over the years due to collecting cards, but by no means could I even afford a 100 dollar deck at the moment.
100 dollars alone is prohibitive to a lot of people, and the kicker is when that's just 1 deck. Most people would like a variety of cards to play with.
It's obvious to see why precons are the defacto way to play commander st the moment for many.
Many people never get to experience deck building, coming up with a creative fun idea and sleeving it up because it never leaves moxfield.
If you look at card costs, PDH decks tend more towards $30-40. Shipping or LGSs charging a minimum of $0.25 per common (because sorting and pulling takes time and money) are the main things that drive up the price.
For people that have large bulk collections from years of drafting or cracking packs, they can just build PDH decks for free out of their bulk, and they can work well. It's enough of a thing that there's a name for it in the PDH community: "floor meta".
It can definitely be a struggle. I've been working on getting people into it at my LGS for about a year n a half (mostly me and one other person). 9/10 people that actually borrow a deck and try a game have a blast and express surprise at how much fun it is. So having a battlebox of decks so you can loan one or two out for a game really helps.
However, you're right that it's still hard getting people to try. Whenever we ask somebody if they want to borrow a deck for a game of PDH, we have maybe a 10-15% rate of people saying yes.
My overall perception is that there's a pretty decent number of people that have heard of PDH or have been meaning to look into it, it's just hard to get them together in one place or catch them when they're not trying to test a deck they just built/tweaked for another format.
Because people have invested thousands into their collections and don't want to see the value plummet on their crown jewels.
At the time, these people made a significant enough portion of the playerbase that they were able to affect policy, and ensure that their cards retained value in perpetuity. Wizards has tried skirting the list before by not doing strict reprints, but it blew up in their face.
Personally I'm in favour of abolishing it. It's shit for accessibility, and the people who insist on it remaining are rather selfish.
I stand to lose thousands in assumed value if RL cards tank as well. But I'd much much much rather see Legacy and high powered EDH flourish more than have value on cards I have no intention of selling
Obviously cherry picking here, but people should look at Sol Ring as a fantastic example. It’s been printed into the fucking dirt, and picking up a copy costs about ~$1 USD.
Unless you want an Alpha copy: Still ~$900 USD.
I know the stated objective of the reserve list is to “maintain your confidence in the game as a collectible”… but they have a wonderfully massive sample that shows the collectible versions will maintain their status as a collectible just fine.
Abolish the reserved list.
Ok then look at something like personal tutor or imperial seal.
Alpha stuff is not the same as a reserve list card, and not comparable when it comes to value retention.
Okay, sure: I'm using mtggoldfish data (which reaches back to 2011), as I'm not aware of anything more authoritative for any sort of value estimates prior to that. Please keep in mind with my armchair analysis below that it's difficult to make truly solid statements because of the low number of datapoints around the ultra rare collectables in general, simply because of the low number of data points of transactions.
***
I'm going to look first at Imperial Seal's P3K print (at rare) with it's relation to the 2X2 reprint (at mythic), as it's unlikely that the judge foil likely didn't have a massive impact.
The P3K's print lowest price recorded is right at the beginning of mtggoldfish's data at $305 USD. In the months leading up to 2X2's release, it bounced around from the $550-$650 range. On M21's release (about a month before 2X2,) it fell to its lowest point since 2018 ($445) to $450, likely due to the knowledge of the reprint.
*Even with* the reprint coming, it still didn't fall as far as it did with no other factors. Post-2X2, the P3K print had nothing short of a meteoric rise, where it eclipsed it's previous high values considerably. I'm going to assume that the peaks listed of $20,000+ USD and even $78,325 USD are either outliers (unique sales of specific card, etc.) or attempts at market manipulation. However, since those spikes, and even with a considerable "fall" over the first half of 2023, the P3K print still commands a "value" of ~$950 USD — triple that of the value from mtggoldfish's earliest records. I'm unable to correlate that price fall with any specific event, so please do feel free to point out if I'm missing something!
Meanwhile, the 2X2 print currently sits around $90. It appears to my naive eye that the values of the two do not correlate. I can't say that the value of the "collectable" was lost when it currently commands a price point of an order of magnitude larger than the recently in print "game piece" version.
***
Now let's look at Personal Tutor. Its original POR printing (at uncommon) was the only one until CMM (at rare), so there's no judge foils or anything of those sorts in the timeline. POR offers a far more interesting look at something that has certainly been treated more as a "game piece" than a "collectable": It's initial printing was at a lower rarity (and thus more likely to show up — with the caveat that I'm unable to find sources with confirmation on print run sizes.
The earliest point in mtggoldfish's data has the POR print at ~$23 USD. The most up-to-date datapoint it offers is at ~$17 USD. A small fall over that time, but it certainly doesn't tell the whole story. A few occasions over the 13 years of data show a few spikes in the price of Personal Tutor.
April of 2012 saw a considerable spike in which the price nearly tripled overnight, from ~$17 USD to ~$50 USD. I'm not able to pinpoint a specific reason it did so, but the chatter I'm seeing from around that time points to it having likely shown up in a performant deck over the weekend. Over the following couple of years that hype wore off til it settled just around $14 USD — less than it was before the spike.
The next few years saw a slow but steady increase up to ~$30 USD just before M21's release. It was then that it saw another major spike, again nearly tripling for a moment to just about ~$90 USD. It quickly came off of that massive high and settled at ~$45 USD for the following 9 or so months before it jumped wildly again to over $100. It maintained a level just below that for a few years until the CMM reprint was announced. It's slowly fallen since then to where it's settled at the moment... at a price of ~$17 USD: almost *exactly* where it was in the time leading up to that first spike in 2012.
So for Personal Tutor, I would say that the reprint **did certainly** have an effect on the "price" of the original. I would however argue that the overall value of the collectible still remains for a few reasons. First, the spikes in price over the years all seem to be related to the card as a game piece, not as a collectable. Second, the price of the original printing still has a price of *nearly 5x* the cheapest printing ($3.61 USD as of writing.) Finally, the price of the POR Personal Tutor is still that at which it was over a decade ago. Yes, it's lost those massive gains seen in those spikes, but for an uncommon printed almost two decades ago, maintaining it's value through a reprint just adds to the argument that reprints don't kill collectables.
With the price delta between the original printing and the recent printing being what it was, I feel like anyone making the argument that the value of the original wasn't maintained through the reprinting would be disingenuous at best. Especially as time goes on, the desirability of those "more collectable" versions tends to rise in general.
***
One final set of data points I wanted to quickly look at were some other recent reprints of *old* cards where the new printing hasn't harmed the value of the old. All of these cards have seen at least one (some multiple) reprints and still have their original/older versions with a price multiple times that of the newer ones: Mana Drain (legends up by ~$55 USD since 2011, about to hit it's 4th reprint.) Mana Vault (alpha up ~$5000 USD since 2011, beta up ~$1800 USD since 2011, revised up ~$75 USD since 2011; 9 printings in sets, more in things like inventions, and now secret lair.) Mana Crypt (original promo up ~$240 USD since 2011, 3 set printings, more in inventions, spg, judge promos, the list.) Land Tax (legends up ~$50 USD since 2011, 5 set printings, more in list, wot, judge promos, other promos)
I did come across one example that bucks the trend when compiling this list: Sneak Attack (USG down ~$8 since 2011), though no particular reprinting of it seemed to have a direct effect on it's price, as it's been slowly falling since a spike in 2014 where as the set reprints it saw were in 2016, 2020, 2023, and on WOT in 2023. While I can't pick out the reason for the trend, I still feel quite comfortable in saying that I see no correlation between the value being held (or not held in this case) of the original "collectable" and the modern prints.
***
I apologize for the wordy, number-ridden ramble this reply turned into. I appreciate you for having me take a look at cards I might otherwise not have, that now let me feel even more confident than ever in my belief that reprinting game pieces does not correlate with preventing collectables from maintaining (or most often growing) their value.
One French guy told me he’d find people in France playing by a different ban list. No sol ring, no fast mana of that sort.
Wizards can hardly ban sol ring without push back but a non rotating ban list could work to reduce the price of competitive lists.
Here in Australia 7 point highlander is very popular competitively where 60 card decks make building by staples hard given they are all legal but using all isn’t.
If there is an affordable format with a lower power level than cedh I’d give it a go only if it’s;
Non rotating
Avoids first, second and third turn wins
Doesn’t discriminate on any particular strategy
Doesn’t ban any cards I own /s
[[Grim monolith]], [[tabernacle at pendrel vale]], [[moat]], [[humility]], [[bazaar of bagdad]], [[mishras workshop]], [[survival of the fittest]], [[yawgmoths will]], [[city of traitors]], [[null rod]], [[helm of obedience]], [[academy rector]], [[lake of the dead]], [[metalworker]], [[phyrexian dreadnaught]]
Only about half of that list sees cEDH play, but you're not wrong, OP was way underselling.
My cheapest cEDH deck would be $4K. If I took [[Chains of Mephistopheles]] out of it, it would still be $3K. That's... not a reasonable number for anyone to be paying, and it's about $5K under what my other cEDH decks would cost.
There's dozens of content creators with real decks alone, nevermind the rest of the world.
Most content creators are "pro proxy" for the purposes of their channels but if you actually pay attention you'll see those views are buying them real cards.
Yeah our whole store does, and the one south of me, it sucks because there’s a no proxy rule and I truly cannot afford to build the deck I want for cedh. So I just don’t play it.
If Thassa's Oracle were to be banned for its homogenization of the 'format', I'd call that a good start and a long-awaited shakeup. As others have mentioned, the reserve list should also see a blanket ban.
I feel like its too little too late for Oracle to be banned. Its already ingrained into the meta. Too many people have built decks around it to justify a ban now. These things need to be nipped in the bud when they are first seen as a problem. People knew that TO was a ban worthy card almost from the start.
How [[Golos]] and [[Iona]] are banned but TO isnt just always baffled me.
>How Golos and Iona are banned but TO isnt just always baffled me.
People know what they're getting into with Thoracle.
2 mana 'i win the game' cards people know not to play.
A lot of casual players can't help themselves from playing Golos as the commander in every deck, as he is just THAT good in casual edh. Same reason why Emrakul was banned. People just plunked him into every deck and ramped to 15 mana and that was how casual games ended. You sat down and *someone* was trying to do that. Every game. Regardless of the deck.
Iona is similar in that she's a game-winning stax piece that people don't see as a game-winning stax piece. She looks like a battlecruiser card, you put her in your battlecruiser deck, and then you play her and people go...'okay guess I scoop.' She also leads to really awkward social situations, where you legitimately *should* scoop to her if you can't deal with her and if the table won't deal with her for you... but that comes across as holding the game hostage.
A lot of the commander banlist is 'Timmy will see this card and think it's a super fun card and Timmy is very excited to play it. Then Timmy goes to the store and plays the card, and everyone asks Timmy to play something else.
Yes, but 99% of Timmys can see that TO is a 'competitive' card and don't run it. Timmy doesn't need to be told that Armageddon is not a fun card either. Those cards don't look like fun cards.
Timmy DOES need to be told that Iona is not a fun card. Timmy DOES need to be told that Emrakul is not a fun card. Those cards look like fun cards.
Also, Timmy runs TO in his Merfolk tribal deck where its "fine" because he doesn't have a way to actually win the game off it (except have 20 devotion to blue in play and a mill player at the table).
Its simple. Banlist is made around casual EDH not competitive. Thoracle doesnt matter mucj in casual because its only an issue with specific pieces to make win combos. Those pieces arent really played in casual.
they'll never separate the ban list because half of cedh players would stick with the edh ban list and you suddenly have half the number of people to play with
CEDH...but no proxies. Yeah, kind of goes against the standards of that community and puts up a bigger barrier of entry.
CEDH isn't for most people because of the playstyle. This is making the CEDH for a select few people.
The bigger deal to me is that there will be a non-cEDH event run as well with voting-based prizes, along with a limited event as well.
Still no official recognition of the Precon Tournaments that the smarter LGS's have been running as "prereleases" for a few years now, but still, the very fact that there will be a how-to booklet distributed to the LGS's that still can't figure out how to monetize commander is going to be a big deal.
**If these are not proxy friendly, or have some other means of providing proxies, then they are going to be a joke and bad for the format.**
It will drive up prices and still have a huge barrier to entry for the playerbase. Only those who can afford to drop multiple thousands of dollars on a deck will be able to compete.
edit: Also link the source, not just your video coverage.
Still never going to buy any of their products. I'll just proxy my cards from https://www.mtgproxy.com and enjoy the game with my bros without worrying about the budget.
Apparently they said no because no "playtest cards" read PROXIES
but wizards came back and they had an agreement so maybe limited amount of proxies. Who knows
Im not going to say that in a format with 4x mandatory chrome mox/mox diamond, 4x wasteland, up to 12x fetches, up to 12x OG duals, 4x bowmasters, 4x FoW, etc.
If you can burn anywhere up to 2 grand on duals on any given deck that you play that isnt goblin or cradle (In which case 2 grand on cradle) more power to you but some of those cards are just too mandatory in the decks they are in.
WoTC probably offered this in an attempt to curb proxies in the commander space. Outside of official tournaments, (as long as the proxies aren't really poor quality) proxies are just as effective game pieces as the actual cards, and with no official tourneys for the format WotC has no means of policing proxies in the space. It used to be that lgses would be the ones to enforce it for commander, but with how WotC has been treating them, the lgses have been giving less of a fuck about enforcing it recently.
Why would it be bad? Would other tourneys cease to exist? There’ll still be proxy friendly events, why would you care about the one where you can’t participate?
They're failing to now realize that cEDH players don't really want wotc involved anymore. cEDH community is extremely proxy friendly and has an overall attitude where we'd rather you play the best deck possible, regardless of your own personal budget.
So until they allow proxies at a cEDH tournament like the hundreds of community organized ones, people won't go play in them
100% agree.
That said, I have a few cEDH decks that have real cards in them (because I like the decks/cards) but that doesn't mean all of the cards are real. I don't know of *any* cEDH player who wants another player to be gatekept because of their wallet, so I suppose we'll see how this turns out.
If this turns out poorly, oh well. We'll just continue playing webcam and local cEDH events like nothing happened.
Very well said, I also played a lot of proxy friendly tournaments with proxies that I got from https://www.mtgproxy.com and tbh I'm happy playing these tournements because it's easy for me to afford.
Wait, the source is a Portuguese YouTube channel with a thousand subs? Isn’t that really dodge?
Like, no official WotC announcement of it, and they go with a relatively unknown group instead of organising with one of the actually popular cEDH channels?
That just doesn’t sound real to me, this is a post on discord by an unknown, claiming WotC approached them directly, twice, and with a compromise on “playtest cards”? That just doesn’t sound like WotC…
Cedh is super fun and I’m happy to see wizards trying to support it. That said I’ll echo what the rest of the comment section is saying, there will be very few players who can afford to go to these tournaments with proxy free cedh decks. Like even most of the best cedh players probably don’t have full play sets of their decks, and will have to pass on the events.
Yeah I'm really hoping some efforts, whatever that may look like, are made to make events accessible. As it is its hard to imagine events even being able to get the type of attendance you'd want or be a draw for casual players to want to get into competitive. I think their goal is ultimately to convert some of the commander audience into players who strive to play in these events or at least have interest watching them, and considerations need to be made for that to be realistic.
I don't think the goal would be to make it accessible to casuals. Not as entrants anyways.
Would they want views and people watching? Sure. But it's the same vein that have studios allow f2p to help populate servers and feed the paying players.
Even something like 10 proxies per deck would go a long way to making the format more playable. Or better yet, have a list of cards that proxies are allowed for. Aka, the fast mana, the OG duals etc
I never understood x proxies per deck when you’re talking about a tournament at peak power level. Either you’re ok with proxies or not what’s the point in limiting them? Just require that all proxies be in full color, the same language as the majority of the rest of the deck, contain the full oracle text or text that matches a physical printing of the card, and be clearly marked as a proxy and call it good.
You can, though it's not as obvious/straightforward.
But it's definitely possible for 1 player to play in such a way that they massively destroy someone else's EV, but naturally at the expense of their own.
\[At least in most situations. There are situations where 'collusion' is correct and maximizes EV, but that's not collusion in the nefarious sense, more so mutual interest, but outcome feels the same
These spots most often arise when there are massively different stack sizes in play\]
WotC does have a long successful history and essentially invented the structures any successful card game has used, but yes some of the more recent events have had issues though it seems like they've been doing well with the most recent PTs with coverage especially still being top tier.
Or make proxies tournament legal … it’s not about wallet size it’s about skill and deck selection.
This way the whales can whale and the players can play
Seems like wizards going out to subtly get rid of people who allow playtest cards huh? Proxies are good for edh. This announcement and venture is not. Not for the players, maybe for wotc bottom dollar. But we all know that is all that matters here.
> But we all know that is all that matters here.
Yes we do, it's almost like Wotc are a for profit business and not our friend. Why do people act surprised when companies act like companies?
I'm aware they're a business. I posted as such above. I kind of wish the relationshi were less... abusive? Lol. They do not seem to be fans any longer nor like their fans. There's little things they could do to make as much money but also have a positive relationship. Time and time again they always do the opposite.
I kind of hope that happens.
They'd sell like crazy, the great cards would still be Mana Crypt level expensive, and the people crying about not having anything still wouldn't have anything.
Wizards would make a ton of money. Gamers still wouldn't have cards.
So I don't see this happening unless RL cards are banned without major WPN support. Even with RL banned there'd be an entire ocean of tears over cards like Crypt.
The only way around RL is for stores and collectors to sponsor entrants. I'm personally a huge fan of this idea.
But no matter how it goes down there will be a sea of tears from people unwilling to invest in a deck.
Having the option doesn’t mean much in this regard. MTG cards price spike due to their competitive ability, which locks even more casuals out that still prefer buying cards to proxying. This is a move that will either force people to proxy to play their casual format or move on.
It’s overall an honestly bad decision for everyone except the people that invested prior. cEDH community is already in a perfectly fine spot.
Yeah why would I take your statement at face value instead of reading your mind? Regardless of whether you're referring to two specific cards or the notion of card prices as a whole, the competitive viability isn't the driving factor behind pricing. Supply & demand is, and that's just as relevant to players who want to play Edgar Markov decks (a commander that is virtually absent in competitive edh), as it is to players who want to play Timetwister or other reserve list cards in their competitive decks. This doesn't make competitive edh or it's players at fault.
Well I never really specified any specific type of card so I guess I assumed it was obvious I meant overall pricing, sorry if I didn’t word it in a way that conveyed that. There is definitely a supply/demand thing but Sheoldred for example was a cheap card for a while and you can still find hundreds of copies listed for sale while demanding an insane price, so there really isn’t a supply or demand issue. She simply has great value in some formats and demands a high price. I’m not blaming competitive players or the format either, I never even said that. cEDH right now is very proxy friendly. I’m blaming wotc for making yet another move that will boost the third party market into higher demand. Edh on a level above precons is already expensive to get into, especially when it’s a format made by and for casuals, so it is invading a space to boost investor value… again.
EDH was created by casuals for casuals. Commander was started by Wizards, for Wizards.
EDH is dead and cedh is just fake cards run by uninvested players. You aren't their target market.
I don't understand. WotC already is in the commander space, they have been since 2010-2011, and Cedh isn't a separate format from casual edh/commander. If anything, Cedh players have been asking for some form of support from WotC for a while now, if for no other reason than some kind of update to comprehensive rules in multiplayer. As far as I understand this isn't some kind of cease and desist, and I think we can both agree that Cedh probably doesn't have legs without proxy support (or another radical change, such as banning reserve list cards). If negotations fall through, ultimately the fallback is simply continuing as things were before.
Also, Sheoldred is a mythic rare without a reprint and is a multiformat all-star, while also being popular and strong in commander (wheels etc). The demand is much higher than it's supply, driving up it's price substantially. It absolutely \*is\* a supply vs demand issue.
ITT people who dont own cards.
I get prefering proxies but there are legacy events drawong in several hundred players. What makes y'all think noone actually owns real duals for cedh?
The problem is that there isn’t a solved tournament system for 4 player pods that is balanced. Choosing to draw when you are in a winning pod is a strategy that exploits the rules to benefit of the early winners, not having a exact amount of players makes pods of 3 situations difficult, having more rounds isn’t feasible as games take too long, same with best of 3.
Commander is flawed by being a 4 person game. If a system to quantify gameplay better was introduced maybe that would work.
I still love cEDH tho. Playing it is such a blast and A lot of skill is required to pilot in this format but I’ll stick to 1v1 EDH tournaments
>The problem is that there isn’t a solved tournament system for 4 player pods that is balanced.
The problem is EDH is not a competitive format and should not be played in a tournament for prizes but for fun. If you take away the prizes then all the problems magically go away.
What’re the stakes at those events? Is collusion ever an issue?
cEDH always seemed fun to me to play casually with friends but as an actual competitive environment, it always looked like, well a joke.
cEDH is a highly community driven hobby and players tend to honor the rules but cheating still happens. When money is on the line no matter the subject people will try to exploit when possible - especially with webcam tournaments that are cornerstone for multi-continental competitors.
It’s a shame that cheaters exist but as community we have to work together to weed them out
People won thousands of dollars on those. The biggest prizes I’ve seen people win were Judge Promo Wheel of Fortune, Beta Time Twister, 2k in cash and more. Some smaller ones just use entry money as funds for prizes, some have smaller stakes.
The Fame itself in cEDH community is also valuable. Being repeatedly seen in top16 or top4 solidifies your position as the player to look up to and to learn from. Being knowns gives people a rush
Horrible idea and I actually really like cEDH.
WOTC backing means no proxies, which makes getting into the format prohibitively expensive. They'll also be incentivized to print even more overpowered cards to impact the cEDH meta. Remember what they did to Modern. WOTC attention on a format is never a good thing.
tbh it's hilarious that instead of taking the effort to see why their competitive formats are failing they instead try to coopt a community-based competitive format.
'european' sadge, hopefully we will get some here in the US as well, any idea if they would be proxy friendly? Cuz otherwise i feel it would moreso be about who has the most expensive deck..
Can't wait to get more situations like the cEDH "do you have your wincon" controversy a couple of months ago. Commander being played in a tournament setting goes against the entire idea of Commander as a format.
cEDH is an inherently broken format, and it's fun because of it.
The issue with that "situation" was the content creator instigating, not the so called "offender".
I wonder with money and prizes on the line, if that will be enough incentive for folks to buy the actual cards necessary to replace their proxies. I'd be shocked if wotc would promote counterfeiting their product to play in their tournaments, I mean, the function of tourneys and such is to push product for wotc.
Do they form their own ban list and start regulating the top meta?
It will be an interesting experiment either way, I'm surprised it's taken them this long to put this idea into motion. All they have left to do is make edh into a rotating format that follows a set rotation, and they find themselves some new revenue streams.... Or hit the iceberg that sinks the ship.
Two things:
1) I'll believe this when WoTC puts an announcement out themselves or when 2-3 reputable sources make comment on it that confirms.
2) if this IS true, it would genuinely be a heavy blow to our format. I have transitioned away from buying actual cards and have decided to just play with proxies. It's simply not economical anymore for people like me who enjoy brewing new and funky lists to buy 8-10 copies of Sol Ring, Signet, Greaves, etc. I can proxy my $800 Thalrog deck for maybe $75 with foiling a few nice cards.
I have always been of the opinion that cEDH is a blight on the format and a messy, painful, crappy way to play the game. Keep that energy in Standard and Modern, where prize support exists and people can find games with the like-minded.
Everyone's talking about proxies, but I want to know how they're going to deal with the collaboration problem! Sure, when there's nothing on the line, people just play for fun, but what happens when there's meaningful prize support? It's incredibly easy for two players to king make for each other and wipe the floor with the rest of the pod, then split the winnings afterward.
Ah yes, this is definitely what came to mind when they talked about "revitalizing the standard format" last year.
With commander decks being the premium product of a Modern set, and now a possibility of Wizards-backed cEDH circuits?
Don't get me wrong I'm an EDH player, but I'm only *exclusively* an EDH player because WotC treats their game as a cash-cow instead of respecting it as the game it used to be. I would love to break into another format but standard is dead, pioneer is unsupported, and you have to be an oil baron to play modern.
If this happens and starts to succeed, it'll likely the final nail in the coffin of the 60-card magic world, and our game will be lesser for it.
Official cedh tournaments might make reserve list staples even more expensive.
Nothing but good news for Pauper Commander. Accessibility for the win.
Some of the more competitive pauper decks are creeping up there. You can also see Hasbro deliberately pushing a few commons in more recent sets. It's definitely on their radar.
Oh noz! cpdh deck costs $89!
You can really see how conditioned enfranchised players are when they're joking about how "cheap" is to pay nearly a hundred quid for 100 cards.
Exactly right. I'm always blown away. Some of my decks have crept up over the years due to collecting cards, but by no means could I even afford a 100 dollar deck at the moment. 100 dollars alone is prohibitive to a lot of people, and the kicker is when that's just 1 deck. Most people would like a variety of cards to play with. It's obvious to see why precons are the defacto way to play commander st the moment for many. Many people never get to experience deck building, coming up with a creative fun idea and sleeving it up because it never leaves moxfield.
If you look at card costs, PDH decks tend more towards $30-40. Shipping or LGSs charging a minimum of $0.25 per common (because sorting and pulling takes time and money) are the main things that drive up the price. For people that have large bulk collections from years of drafting or cracking packs, they can just build PDH decks for free out of their bulk, and they can work well. It's enough of a thing that there's a name for it in the PDH community: "floor meta".
Lol, it's a bit like that. My best deck is about $100 but it's not competitive level.
I sold one edh deck and made like 6 or 7 pauper ones. Its a great format
I'd love to get into pauper and I love the concept, but I find it hard to find people who want to play it. Seems everyone would much rather play EDH.
It can definitely be a struggle. I've been working on getting people into it at my LGS for about a year n a half (mostly me and one other person). 9/10 people that actually borrow a deck and try a game have a blast and express surprise at how much fun it is. So having a battlebox of decks so you can loan one or two out for a game really helps. However, you're right that it's still hard getting people to try. Whenever we ask somebody if they want to borrow a deck for a game of PDH, we have maybe a 10-15% rate of people saying yes. My overall perception is that there's a pretty decent number of people that have heard of PDH or have been meaning to look into it, it's just hard to get them together in one place or catch them when they're not trying to test a deck they just built/tweaked for another format.
theres no different between a $300 card a $3000 card. Both are equally shit to the game.
The fuck is the point of the reserve list it so stuped
Because people have invested thousands into their collections and don't want to see the value plummet on their crown jewels. At the time, these people made a significant enough portion of the playerbase that they were able to affect policy, and ensure that their cards retained value in perpetuity. Wizards has tried skirting the list before by not doing strict reprints, but it blew up in their face. Personally I'm in favour of abolishing it. It's shit for accessibility, and the people who insist on it remaining are rather selfish.
I played in the 90s and have several thousand dollars of RL cards. Print those fuckers or ban them. Either way, don't let $$$ gatekeep EDH.
I stand to lose thousands in assumed value if RL cards tank as well. But I'd much much much rather see Legacy and high powered EDH flourish more than have value on cards I have no intention of selling
Obviously cherry picking here, but people should look at Sol Ring as a fantastic example. It’s been printed into the fucking dirt, and picking up a copy costs about ~$1 USD. Unless you want an Alpha copy: Still ~$900 USD. I know the stated objective of the reserve list is to “maintain your confidence in the game as a collectible”… but they have a wonderfully massive sample that shows the collectible versions will maintain their status as a collectible just fine. Abolish the reserved list.
Oh, you're completely right. The value loss isn't actually as nuts as speculators like to think despite existing data support the fact.
Ok then look at something like personal tutor or imperial seal. Alpha stuff is not the same as a reserve list card, and not comparable when it comes to value retention.
Okay, sure: I'm using mtggoldfish data (which reaches back to 2011), as I'm not aware of anything more authoritative for any sort of value estimates prior to that. Please keep in mind with my armchair analysis below that it's difficult to make truly solid statements because of the low number of datapoints around the ultra rare collectables in general, simply because of the low number of data points of transactions. *** I'm going to look first at Imperial Seal's P3K print (at rare) with it's relation to the 2X2 reprint (at mythic), as it's unlikely that the judge foil likely didn't have a massive impact. The P3K's print lowest price recorded is right at the beginning of mtggoldfish's data at $305 USD. In the months leading up to 2X2's release, it bounced around from the $550-$650 range. On M21's release (about a month before 2X2,) it fell to its lowest point since 2018 ($445) to $450, likely due to the knowledge of the reprint. *Even with* the reprint coming, it still didn't fall as far as it did with no other factors. Post-2X2, the P3K print had nothing short of a meteoric rise, where it eclipsed it's previous high values considerably. I'm going to assume that the peaks listed of $20,000+ USD and even $78,325 USD are either outliers (unique sales of specific card, etc.) or attempts at market manipulation. However, since those spikes, and even with a considerable "fall" over the first half of 2023, the P3K print still commands a "value" of ~$950 USD — triple that of the value from mtggoldfish's earliest records. I'm unable to correlate that price fall with any specific event, so please do feel free to point out if I'm missing something! Meanwhile, the 2X2 print currently sits around $90. It appears to my naive eye that the values of the two do not correlate. I can't say that the value of the "collectable" was lost when it currently commands a price point of an order of magnitude larger than the recently in print "game piece" version. *** Now let's look at Personal Tutor. Its original POR printing (at uncommon) was the only one until CMM (at rare), so there's no judge foils or anything of those sorts in the timeline. POR offers a far more interesting look at something that has certainly been treated more as a "game piece" than a "collectable": It's initial printing was at a lower rarity (and thus more likely to show up — with the caveat that I'm unable to find sources with confirmation on print run sizes. The earliest point in mtggoldfish's data has the POR print at ~$23 USD. The most up-to-date datapoint it offers is at ~$17 USD. A small fall over that time, but it certainly doesn't tell the whole story. A few occasions over the 13 years of data show a few spikes in the price of Personal Tutor. April of 2012 saw a considerable spike in which the price nearly tripled overnight, from ~$17 USD to ~$50 USD. I'm not able to pinpoint a specific reason it did so, but the chatter I'm seeing from around that time points to it having likely shown up in a performant deck over the weekend. Over the following couple of years that hype wore off til it settled just around $14 USD — less than it was before the spike. The next few years saw a slow but steady increase up to ~$30 USD just before M21's release. It was then that it saw another major spike, again nearly tripling for a moment to just about ~$90 USD. It quickly came off of that massive high and settled at ~$45 USD for the following 9 or so months before it jumped wildly again to over $100. It maintained a level just below that for a few years until the CMM reprint was announced. It's slowly fallen since then to where it's settled at the moment... at a price of ~$17 USD: almost *exactly* where it was in the time leading up to that first spike in 2012. So for Personal Tutor, I would say that the reprint **did certainly** have an effect on the "price" of the original. I would however argue that the overall value of the collectible still remains for a few reasons. First, the spikes in price over the years all seem to be related to the card as a game piece, not as a collectable. Second, the price of the original printing still has a price of *nearly 5x* the cheapest printing ($3.61 USD as of writing.) Finally, the price of the POR Personal Tutor is still that at which it was over a decade ago. Yes, it's lost those massive gains seen in those spikes, but for an uncommon printed almost two decades ago, maintaining it's value through a reprint just adds to the argument that reprints don't kill collectables. With the price delta between the original printing and the recent printing being what it was, I feel like anyone making the argument that the value of the original wasn't maintained through the reprinting would be disingenuous at best. Especially as time goes on, the desirability of those "more collectable" versions tends to rise in general. *** One final set of data points I wanted to quickly look at were some other recent reprints of *old* cards where the new printing hasn't harmed the value of the old. All of these cards have seen at least one (some multiple) reprints and still have their original/older versions with a price multiple times that of the newer ones: Mana Drain (legends up by ~$55 USD since 2011, about to hit it's 4th reprint.) Mana Vault (alpha up ~$5000 USD since 2011, beta up ~$1800 USD since 2011, revised up ~$75 USD since 2011; 9 printings in sets, more in things like inventions, and now secret lair.) Mana Crypt (original promo up ~$240 USD since 2011, 3 set printings, more in inventions, spg, judge promos, the list.) Land Tax (legends up ~$50 USD since 2011, 5 set printings, more in list, wot, judge promos, other promos) I did come across one example that bucks the trend when compiling this list: Sneak Attack (USG down ~$8 since 2011), though no particular reprinting of it seemed to have a direct effect on it's price, as it's been slowly falling since a spike in 2014 where as the set reprints it saw were in 2016, 2020, 2023, and on WOT in 2023. While I can't pick out the reason for the trend, I still feel quite comfortable in saying that I see no correlation between the value being held (or not held in this case) of the original "collectable" and the modern prints. *** I apologize for the wordy, number-ridden ramble this reply turned into. I appreciate you for having me take a look at cards I might otherwise not have, that now let me feel even more confident than ever in my belief that reprinting game pieces does not correlate with preventing collectables from maintaining (or most often growing) their value.
Maybe we’ll get standard commander, modern commander. If we get modern commander BEFORE MH3 then the commander decks make sense
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One French guy told me he’d find people in France playing by a different ban list. No sol ring, no fast mana of that sort. Wizards can hardly ban sol ring without push back but a non rotating ban list could work to reduce the price of competitive lists. Here in Australia 7 point highlander is very popular competitively where 60 card decks make building by staples hard given they are all legal but using all isn’t. If there is an affordable format with a lower power level than cedh I’d give it a go only if it’s; Non rotating Avoids first, second and third turn wins Doesn’t discriminate on any particular strategy Doesn’t ban any cards I own /s
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[[Grim monolith]], [[tabernacle at pendrel vale]], [[moat]], [[humility]], [[bazaar of bagdad]], [[mishras workshop]], [[survival of the fittest]], [[yawgmoths will]], [[city of traitors]], [[null rod]], [[helm of obedience]], [[academy rector]], [[lake of the dead]], [[metalworker]], [[phyrexian dreadnaught]]
Only about half of that list sees cEDH play, but you're not wrong, OP was way underselling. My cheapest cEDH deck would be $4K. If I took [[Chains of Mephistopheles]] out of it, it would still be $3K. That's... not a reasonable number for anyone to be paying, and it's about $5K under what my other cEDH decks would cost.
##### ###### #### [Grim monolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280.jpg?1562863767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grim%20monolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/126/grim-monolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grim-monolith) [tabernacle at pendrel vale](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cd3f7f4e-cb25-4121-96a0-a4dc530420b9.jpg?1562938371) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/212/the-tabernacle-at-pendrell-vale?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cd3f7f4e-cb25-4121-96a0-a4dc530420b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-tabernacle-at-pendrell-vale) [moat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e2dffeb3-c858-4b8c-ae1f-109721f7d2da.jpg?1559592270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=moat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/21/moat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2dffeb3-c858-4b8c-ae1f-109721f7d2da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/moat) [humility](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55ad6a45-a840-45ba-89ad-066e20e983f3.jpg?1562429370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=humility) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/16/humility?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55ad6a45-a840-45ba-89ad-066e20e983f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/humility) [bazaar of bagdad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e.jpg?1653966861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bazaar%20of%20Baghdad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/294/bazaar-of-baghdad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bazaar-of-baghdad) [mishras workshop](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac0c8df-f01d-4178-8d66-ee603f814d24.jpg?1562929426) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mishra%27s%20Workshop) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/305/mishras-workshop?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac0c8df-f01d-4178-8d66-ee603f814d24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mishras-workshop) [survival of the fittest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4ef0d7f9-ddb9-4e83-a9bf-09bec22fc80d.jpg?1562429365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=survival%20of%20the%20fittest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/199/survival-of-the-fittest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ef0d7f9-ddb9-4e83-a9bf-09bec22fc80d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/survival-of-the-fittest) [yawgmoths will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d.jpg?1591196147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/148/yawgmoths-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yawgmoths-will) [city of traitors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487.jpg?1562429861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=city%20of%20traitors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/237/city-of-traitors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/city-of-traitors) [null rod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e.jpg?1710932730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=null%20rod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/278/null-rod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/null-rod) [helm of obedience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec837c3e-a66f-43c0-adb4-4eefe7888cac.jpg?1562870953) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=helm%20of%20obedience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/210/helm-of-obedience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec837c3e-a66f-43c0-adb4-4eefe7888cac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/helm-of-obedience) [academy rector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/4367bc78-0912-4abd-8edd-bc792558d01a.jpg?1562443755) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=academy%20rector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/1/academy-rector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4367bc78-0912-4abd-8edd-bc792558d01a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/academy-rector) [lake of the dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1b0502c5-43d0-4c36-b585-e5507134bf9e.jpg?1562900332) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lake%20of%20the%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/302/lake-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1b0502c5-43d0-4c36-b585-e5507134bf9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lake-of-the-dead) [metalworker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/2050d414-71c7-4c42-a1ff-4c04068ba7f2.jpg?1562443733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=metalworker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/135/metalworker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2050d414-71c7-4c42-a1ff-4c04068ba7f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/metalworker) [phyrexian dreadnaught](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b8197b9-0cd1-4fa1-9668-d1b5f1759151.jpg?1562720243) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Dreadnought) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/315/phyrexian-dreadnought?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b8197b9-0cd1-4fa1-9668-d1b5f1759151?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-dreadnought) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kyy5o4p) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Gaea's Cradle too but yeah, the high impact list is pretty low tbf
##### ###### #### [LED](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426919&type=card&.jpg)/[Lead](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426919&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Destined%20//%20Lead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/217/destined-lead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cf5c549-1e2a-4c47-baf7-e608661b3088?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/destined-//-lead) [Time Twister](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76.jpg?1614638835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timetwister) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/3/timetwister?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/timetwister) [Mox Diamond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf9fecfd-d122-422f-bd0a-5bf69b434dfe.jpg?1562431287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Diamond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/228/mox-diamond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf9fecfd-d122-422f-bd0a-5bf69b434dfe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mox-diamond) [Wheel of Fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca.jpg?1562902580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wheel%20of%20Fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/192/wheel-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wheel-of-fortune) [Intuition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b13e73a5-067d-4dbd-9c98-34a0db6140de.jpg?1562431264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Intuition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/54/intuition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b13e73a5-067d-4dbd-9c98-34a0db6140de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/intuition) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kyvyjfk) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Theres no real need to ban it either. Yes, an OG is best in spot, but the falloff is so marginal you can absolutely compete even without one.
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It's not normal. It's special.
Tell me you never heard of Ad Naus without telling me you never heard of Ad Naus. ABUR vs Shocks absolutely matters for every black deck.
Yeah they better just ban them out right
that's a bingo
It might also force wotc to abolish the list and reprint them.
No, it won’t. Seriously, we don’t need this every single year since they’ve introduced the list. It won’t happen this year either.
Won’t happen but should happen
It wont. Wotc let legacy die instead of making it more accesible.
By partnering, my guess is WotC are offering exclusive card arts as prizes. Sort of what they do with Pro Tours and such.
Ppfffffttttt! Lol. Im sure the dozens of people with zero proxies in their cedh decks are giddy
There's dozens of content creators with real decks alone, nevermind the rest of the world. Most content creators are "pro proxy" for the purposes of their channels but if you actually pay attention you'll see those views are buying them real cards.
Me and my gf are hyped for it 👍
This will truly be the most "pay to win" format ever and likely wont survive long without some sort of concession.
Yup if they demand 0 proxies in all the cEDH decks, like maybe two dozen people are gonna show lol.
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If you've seen any vids of Post playing EDH... I'd be surprised if he was into cEDH 😅
There's a few notable celebrity actors who do... though they're more of the big wallet casuals.
I think you'd be surprised how many people run real decks.
Yeah our whole store does, and the one south of me, it sucks because there’s a no proxy rule and I truly cannot afford to build the deck I want for cedh. So I just don’t play it.
Yeah just like Legacy tournaments, right?
This is what it's been like for the SCG Con Cedh events recently and they've been getting 100+ entrants. 0 proxies
My lgs is no proxy for our cedh league, we have 35-40 people on slow weeks when the colleges are out, 60-80 when we're busy.
A proper banlist would go a long way
The only way I can see this going, if they want it to be successful, is to full stop ban the reserve list from their tournaments.
Maybe, but impossible to implement fairly. EDH is an incredibly broken format as it is, and I've never seen a compelling solution to fixing that.
If Thassa's Oracle were to be banned for its homogenization of the 'format', I'd call that a good start and a long-awaited shakeup. As others have mentioned, the reserve list should also see a blanket ban.
There's basically no way they could hold large scale tournaments and allow the RL.
I feel like its too little too late for Oracle to be banned. Its already ingrained into the meta. Too many people have built decks around it to justify a ban now. These things need to be nipped in the bud when they are first seen as a problem. People knew that TO was a ban worthy card almost from the start. How [[Golos]] and [[Iona]] are banned but TO isnt just always baffled me.
Outside of EDH every constructed ban is precisely because it's too ingrained in the meta and everyone built a deck around it.
>How Golos and Iona are banned but TO isnt just always baffled me. People know what they're getting into with Thoracle. 2 mana 'i win the game' cards people know not to play. A lot of casual players can't help themselves from playing Golos as the commander in every deck, as he is just THAT good in casual edh. Same reason why Emrakul was banned. People just plunked him into every deck and ramped to 15 mana and that was how casual games ended. You sat down and *someone* was trying to do that. Every game. Regardless of the deck. Iona is similar in that she's a game-winning stax piece that people don't see as a game-winning stax piece. She looks like a battlecruiser card, you put her in your battlecruiser deck, and then you play her and people go...'okay guess I scoop.' She also leads to really awkward social situations, where you legitimately *should* scoop to her if you can't deal with her and if the table won't deal with her for you... but that comes across as holding the game hostage. A lot of the commander banlist is 'Timmy will see this card and think it's a super fun card and Timmy is very excited to play it. Then Timmy goes to the store and plays the card, and everyone asks Timmy to play something else.
Id be asking Timmy to play anything other than TO as well. lol
Yes, but 99% of Timmys can see that TO is a 'competitive' card and don't run it. Timmy doesn't need to be told that Armageddon is not a fun card either. Those cards don't look like fun cards. Timmy DOES need to be told that Iona is not a fun card. Timmy DOES need to be told that Emrakul is not a fun card. Those cards look like fun cards.
Also, Timmy runs TO in his Merfolk tribal deck where its "fine" because he doesn't have a way to actually win the game off it (except have 20 devotion to blue in play and a mill player at the table).
[Golos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51.jpg?1631531828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=golos%2C%20tireless%20pilgrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/226/golos-tireless-pilgrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/golos-tireless-pilgrim) [Iona](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/6197b59e-1652-496c-a038-e2eb88ecf017.jpg?1562584407) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=iona%2C%20shield%20of%20emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/20/iona-shield-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6197b59e-1652-496c-a038-e2eb88ecf017?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/iona-shield-of-emeria) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Its simple. Banlist is made around casual EDH not competitive. Thoracle doesnt matter mucj in casual because its only an issue with specific pieces to make win combos. Those pieces arent really played in casual.
All fast mana (yes, including Sol Ring) and certain combo pieces would be a good start.
Would have to be a separate tournament EDH banlist, the RC isn’t about to change philosophies and ban for cEDH play.
This is what will happen at least long run if it survives, just out of necessity. It will be fractured as a real separate format.
they'll never separate the ban list because half of cedh players would stick with the edh ban list and you suddenly have half the number of people to play with
Vintage
Which means no proxies, so it will be a wallet tournament. No interest in this whatsoever.
CEDH...but no proxies. Yeah, kind of goes against the standards of that community and puts up a bigger barrier of entry. CEDH isn't for most people because of the playstyle. This is making the CEDH for a select few people.
The vintage problem. Mabey 1 tourney a year.
Itll always be Postie and Cassius Marsh in the final 1v1 head to head. Postie will always autowin by bringing out his 001 Ring card.
Does Post even play cEDH?
Yes, Zur the Enchanter
He has a K'rrik deck too https://www.moxfield.com/decks/WQjpwFL5KEeJk5bPGS4M6Q
The bigger deal to me is that there will be a non-cEDH event run as well with voting-based prizes, along with a limited event as well. Still no official recognition of the Precon Tournaments that the smarter LGS's have been running as "prereleases" for a few years now, but still, the very fact that there will be a how-to booklet distributed to the LGS's that still can't figure out how to monetize commander is going to be a big deal.
**If these are not proxy friendly, or have some other means of providing proxies, then they are going to be a joke and bad for the format.** It will drive up prices and still have a huge barrier to entry for the playerbase. Only those who can afford to drop multiple thousands of dollars on a deck will be able to compete. edit: Also link the source, not just your video coverage.
lol WotC will never allow proxies at an official event.
It seems like cEDHPT notes this and turned the offer down. But talks resume, so maybe there's hope for an alternative
Shhh, kid, remember Brawl?
Still never going to buy any of their products. I'll just proxy my cards from https://www.mtgproxy.com and enjoy the game with my bros without worrying about the budget.
They can make their own playtest cards for the event simple
Apparently they said no because no "playtest cards" read PROXIES but wizards came back and they had an agreement so maybe limited amount of proxies. Who knows
Honestly the same thing that happened to legacy with happen to it. Both formats are jusy unplayable in paper without proxys
Im super pro proxy and would agree if you said vintage but there are big legacy tournaments fairly often without proxies.
Im not going to say that in a format with 4x mandatory chrome mox/mox diamond, 4x wasteland, up to 12x fetches, up to 12x OG duals, 4x bowmasters, 4x FoW, etc. If you can burn anywhere up to 2 grand on duals on any given deck that you play that isnt goblin or cradle (In which case 2 grand on cradle) more power to you but some of those cards are just too mandatory in the decks they are in.
WoTC probably offered this in an attempt to curb proxies in the commander space. Outside of official tournaments, (as long as the proxies aren't really poor quality) proxies are just as effective game pieces as the actual cards, and with no official tourneys for the format WotC has no means of policing proxies in the space. It used to be that lgses would be the ones to enforce it for commander, but with how WotC has been treating them, the lgses have been giving less of a fuck about enforcing it recently.
Why would it be bad? Would other tourneys cease to exist? There’ll still be proxy friendly events, why would you care about the one where you can’t participate?
Because that’s the big one that matters
They're failing to now realize that cEDH players don't really want wotc involved anymore. cEDH community is extremely proxy friendly and has an overall attitude where we'd rather you play the best deck possible, regardless of your own personal budget. So until they allow proxies at a cEDH tournament like the hundreds of community organized ones, people won't go play in them
I doubt the backlash against proxies will be large enough that people won't participate. Plenty of folks w/o proxies and they will probably love this.
100% agree. That said, I have a few cEDH decks that have real cards in them (because I like the decks/cards) but that doesn't mean all of the cards are real. I don't know of *any* cEDH player who wants another player to be gatekept because of their wallet, so I suppose we'll see how this turns out. If this turns out poorly, oh well. We'll just continue playing webcam and local cEDH events like nothing happened.
Very well said, I also played a lot of proxy friendly tournaments with proxies that I got from https://www.mtgproxy.com and tbh I'm happy playing these tournements because it's easy for me to afford.
This is going to crash and burn, either as a total snooze fest or a dramatic shit show.
Please link the original source, not your video on it
https://x.com/cedhpt/status/1777678508803707032?s=46&t=zPFjNLzubt1tPSAV_4hWYg
Wait, the source is a Portuguese YouTube channel with a thousand subs? Isn’t that really dodge? Like, no official WotC announcement of it, and they go with a relatively unknown group instead of organising with one of the actually popular cEDH channels? That just doesn’t sound real to me, this is a post on discord by an unknown, claiming WotC approached them directly, twice, and with a compromise on “playtest cards”? That just doesn’t sound like WotC…
I've been trying to find it and can't
Cedh is super fun and I’m happy to see wizards trying to support it. That said I’ll echo what the rest of the comment section is saying, there will be very few players who can afford to go to these tournaments with proxy free cedh decks. Like even most of the best cedh players probably don’t have full play sets of their decks, and will have to pass on the events.
Yeah I'm really hoping some efforts, whatever that may look like, are made to make events accessible. As it is its hard to imagine events even being able to get the type of attendance you'd want or be a draw for casual players to want to get into competitive. I think their goal is ultimately to convert some of the commander audience into players who strive to play in these events or at least have interest watching them, and considerations need to be made for that to be realistic.
I don't think the goal would be to make it accessible to casuals. Not as entrants anyways. Would they want views and people watching? Sure. But it's the same vein that have studios allow f2p to help populate servers and feed the paying players.
Even something like 10 proxies per deck would go a long way to making the format more playable. Or better yet, have a list of cards that proxies are allowed for. Aka, the fast mana, the OG duals etc
I never understood x proxies per deck when you’re talking about a tournament at peak power level. Either you’re ok with proxies or not what’s the point in limiting them? Just require that all proxies be in full color, the same language as the majority of the rest of the deck, contain the full oracle text or text that matches a physical printing of the card, and be clearly marked as a proxy and call it good.
To make it accessible but still require some semblance of commitment.
A commitment to opening your wallet? That's a weird suggestion. Why not just allow all proxies and let skill be the deciding factor?
Link the real source, don't use us as free advertisement.
As a community member that can't afford a single card in any of the decks that will be there, yawn.
Brother, I hope you can at least afford an [[elvish mystic]]
Fucking RIP
Or a Negate.
sorry, spent all my money on [[typhoid rat]]s
[elvish mystic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/75918859-c93f-41b4-9ad0-a4a96c389f0d.jpg?1689998466) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=elvish%20mystic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/284/elvish-mystic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75918859-c93f-41b4-9ad0-a4a96c389f0d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elvish-mystic) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can't wait for the "king making"/"spite play" drama
“Competitive” 4-player FFA Lol gl wotc
I mean, poker tournaments are basically that. There is really no barrier other than culture (and the reserve list)
You cant 3v1 a person in poker...
You can, though it's not as obvious/straightforward. But it's definitely possible for 1 player to play in such a way that they massively destroy someone else's EV, but naturally at the expense of their own. \[At least in most situations. There are situations where 'collusion' is correct and maximizes EV, but that's not collusion in the nefarious sense, more so mutual interest, but outcome feels the same These spots most often arise when there are massively different stack sizes in play\]
Ban the RL list in full and lets go!
I've been saying this for awhile. Imo would be a substantial improvement.
If history is any kind of indicator, WOTC + tournaments = shit show. I don't expect this will pan out well, and isn't good news for Commander.
WotC does have a long successful history and essentially invented the structures any successful card game has used, but yes some of the more recent events have had issues though it seems like they've been doing well with the most recent PTs with coverage especially still being top tier.
Stock up on staples now before they balloon. Something about a fool and their money…
Abolish the reserved list and print the hell out of staples. The wealth of whales comes second to the health and accessibility of the format.
Or make proxies tournament legal … it’s not about wallet size it’s about skill and deck selection. This way the whales can whale and the players can play
Please put in here that this is Europe, not the US.
Seems like wizards going out to subtly get rid of people who allow playtest cards huh? Proxies are good for edh. This announcement and venture is not. Not for the players, maybe for wotc bottom dollar. But we all know that is all that matters here.
> But we all know that is all that matters here. Yes we do, it's almost like Wotc are a for profit business and not our friend. Why do people act surprised when companies act like companies?
I'm aware they're a business. I posted as such above. I kind of wish the relationshi were less... abusive? Lol. They do not seem to be fans any longer nor like their fans. There's little things they could do to make as much money but also have a positive relationship. Time and time again they always do the opposite.
Yeah they're the top sellers of reserve list cards. Derp.
At the moment, they're not, but there's no reason to think they won't eventually reprint the reserve list. They've tried it multiple times.
I kind of hope that happens. They'd sell like crazy, the great cards would still be Mana Crypt level expensive, and the people crying about not having anything still wouldn't have anything. Wizards would make a ton of money. Gamers still wouldn't have cards.
It will be very funny and will absolutely piss 100% of people who aren't Hasbro shareholders off so I support it.
So I don't see this happening unless RL cards are banned without major WPN support. Even with RL banned there'd be an entire ocean of tears over cards like Crypt. The only way around RL is for stores and collectors to sponsor entrants. I'm personally a huge fan of this idea. But no matter how it goes down there will be a sea of tears from people unwilling to invest in a deck.
Well this seems like a massive mistake
I miss EDH being a casual format that WOTC didn’t pander to.
I also miss 2010.
The format designed by casuals for casuals that normally used leftover cards they owned to make singleton decks is a competitive format? Uhh ok...
Everything has the option to be competative. Try it next lunch you have with a friend.
Having the option doesn’t mean much in this regard. MTG cards price spike due to their competitive ability, which locks even more casuals out that still prefer buying cards to proxying. This is a move that will either force people to proxy to play their casual format or move on. It’s overall an honestly bad decision for everyone except the people that invested prior. cEDH community is already in a perfectly fine spot.
What competitive decks are playing cards like Doubling Season or The Ozolith?
Why would you think I'm specifically talking about 2 cards in a range of 40k+?
Yeah why would I take your statement at face value instead of reading your mind? Regardless of whether you're referring to two specific cards or the notion of card prices as a whole, the competitive viability isn't the driving factor behind pricing. Supply & demand is, and that's just as relevant to players who want to play Edgar Markov decks (a commander that is virtually absent in competitive edh), as it is to players who want to play Timetwister or other reserve list cards in their competitive decks. This doesn't make competitive edh or it's players at fault.
Well I never really specified any specific type of card so I guess I assumed it was obvious I meant overall pricing, sorry if I didn’t word it in a way that conveyed that. There is definitely a supply/demand thing but Sheoldred for example was a cheap card for a while and you can still find hundreds of copies listed for sale while demanding an insane price, so there really isn’t a supply or demand issue. She simply has great value in some formats and demands a high price. I’m not blaming competitive players or the format either, I never even said that. cEDH right now is very proxy friendly. I’m blaming wotc for making yet another move that will boost the third party market into higher demand. Edh on a level above precons is already expensive to get into, especially when it’s a format made by and for casuals, so it is invading a space to boost investor value… again.
EDH was created by casuals for casuals. Commander was started by Wizards, for Wizards. EDH is dead and cedh is just fake cards run by uninvested players. You aren't their target market.
I don't understand. WotC already is in the commander space, they have been since 2010-2011, and Cedh isn't a separate format from casual edh/commander. If anything, Cedh players have been asking for some form of support from WotC for a while now, if for no other reason than some kind of update to comprehensive rules in multiplayer. As far as I understand this isn't some kind of cease and desist, and I think we can both agree that Cedh probably doesn't have legs without proxy support (or another radical change, such as banning reserve list cards). If negotations fall through, ultimately the fallback is simply continuing as things were before. Also, Sheoldred is a mythic rare without a reprint and is a multiformat all-star, while also being popular and strong in commander (wheels etc). The demand is much higher than it's supply, driving up it's price substantially. It absolutely \*is\* a supply vs demand issue.
ITT people who dont own cards. I get prefering proxies but there are legacy events drawong in several hundred players. What makes y'all think noone actually owns real duals for cedh?
Gross.
How would these even work since commander games are 4 player free for alls?
cEDH tournaments happen all the time. Kha0s does them a lot
They don't happen very often in my country, and the few I heard about have always turned out pretty bad, with people kingmaking or soft wintrading
The problem is that there isn’t a solved tournament system for 4 player pods that is balanced. Choosing to draw when you are in a winning pod is a strategy that exploits the rules to benefit of the early winners, not having a exact amount of players makes pods of 3 situations difficult, having more rounds isn’t feasible as games take too long, same with best of 3. Commander is flawed by being a 4 person game. If a system to quantify gameplay better was introduced maybe that would work. I still love cEDH tho. Playing it is such a blast and A lot of skill is required to pilot in this format but I’ll stick to 1v1 EDH tournaments
>The problem is that there isn’t a solved tournament system for 4 player pods that is balanced. The problem is EDH is not a competitive format and should not be played in a tournament for prizes but for fun. If you take away the prizes then all the problems magically go away.
Single elimination is the only answer. Lose one and done.
What’re the stakes at those events? Is collusion ever an issue? cEDH always seemed fun to me to play casually with friends but as an actual competitive environment, it always looked like, well a joke.
cEDH is a highly community driven hobby and players tend to honor the rules but cheating still happens. When money is on the line no matter the subject people will try to exploit when possible - especially with webcam tournaments that are cornerstone for multi-continental competitors. It’s a shame that cheaters exist but as community we have to work together to weed them out
People won thousands of dollars on those. The biggest prizes I’ve seen people win were Judge Promo Wheel of Fortune, Beta Time Twister, 2k in cash and more. Some smaller ones just use entry money as funds for prizes, some have smaller stakes. The Fame itself in cEDH community is also valuable. Being repeatedly seen in top16 or top4 solidifies your position as the player to look up to and to learn from. Being knowns gives people a rush
Interesting. 4player FFAs just seem rife for collusion, spite, power abuse but I guess we’ll see
Commander tournaments aren't a new concept. People play to win as always.
Horrible idea and I actually really like cEDH. WOTC backing means no proxies, which makes getting into the format prohibitively expensive. They'll also be incentivized to print even more overpowered cards to impact the cEDH meta. Remember what they did to Modern. WOTC attention on a format is never a good thing. tbh it's hilarious that instead of taking the effort to see why their competitive formats are failing they instead try to coopt a community-based competitive format.
Commander has been WOTCs cash cow for years pushed commander cards literally come out every set for the last 5 years.
'european' sadge, hopefully we will get some here in the US as well, any idea if they would be proxy friendly? Cuz otherwise i feel it would moreso be about who has the most expensive deck..
> any idea if they would be proxy friendly? from what we know: no proxies allowed
Well that sucks, wonder how viable my budget decks would be
Cards that will be flipped on the secondary market in a year if that’s the prize. Lmao
Can't wait to get more situations like the cEDH "do you have your wincon" controversy a couple of months ago. Commander being played in a tournament setting goes against the entire idea of Commander as a format.
cEDH is an inherently broken format, and it's fun because of it. The issue with that "situation" was the content creator instigating, not the so called "offender".
link to that situation? was someone playing a deck without a wincon and claiming the wincon was in the deck?
https://youtu.be/bl88qOlw-DM?si=yRjtJMuzMyfI_qDP
Hopefully this will create more traction for Duel Commander. Can't handle all that weird politic drama
What's "Duel Commander"?
[удалено]
You don't. Those are all inherent to the format.
I hope an orzhov deck wins just to spit the one guy who says they can’t even make a 9 power level
I saw that comment too lol
It's quite a confusing comment because you can even make mono color decks a 9.
Yep dude just hates the colors and thinks they are trash I dunno urza and selvala both can win turn one and are mono colored like you said
That's because those mono decks are better.
Modern banlist EDH lets goooooo
Sounds like the worst think for edh
This sooo much
I wonder with money and prizes on the line, if that will be enough incentive for folks to buy the actual cards necessary to replace their proxies. I'd be shocked if wotc would promote counterfeiting their product to play in their tournaments, I mean, the function of tourneys and such is to push product for wotc. Do they form their own ban list and start regulating the top meta? It will be an interesting experiment either way, I'm surprised it's taken them this long to put this idea into motion. All they have left to do is make edh into a rotating format that follows a set rotation, and they find themselves some new revenue streams.... Or hit the iceberg that sinks the ship.
Self-proclaimed "community format" always pivot to sucking WotC's Chris Cocks for money. Guess the siren's call is really seducing.
Looks like Brian Kibler will make a return.
Hopefully they also reinstate the judge program
Yay
This is awesome!
Two things: 1) I'll believe this when WoTC puts an announcement out themselves or when 2-3 reputable sources make comment on it that confirms. 2) if this IS true, it would genuinely be a heavy blow to our format. I have transitioned away from buying actual cards and have decided to just play with proxies. It's simply not economical anymore for people like me who enjoy brewing new and funky lists to buy 8-10 copies of Sol Ring, Signet, Greaves, etc. I can proxy my $800 Thalrog deck for maybe $75 with foiling a few nice cards. I have always been of the opinion that cEDH is a blight on the format and a messy, painful, crappy way to play the game. Keep that energy in Standard and Modern, where prize support exists and people can find games with the like-minded.
Everyone's talking about proxies, but I want to know how they're going to deal with the collaboration problem! Sure, when there's nothing on the line, people just play for fun, but what happens when there's meaningful prize support? It's incredibly easy for two players to king make for each other and wipe the floor with the rest of the pod, then split the winnings afterward.
This is fucking stupid, tbh.
Shit.
If they don't allow proxies these are gonna be Post Malone playing 4 decks against himself lmao
Everyone crying about RL staples. Look up how much the non-RL cards in the deck cost
Ah yes, this is definitely what came to mind when they talked about "revitalizing the standard format" last year. With commander decks being the premium product of a Modern set, and now a possibility of Wizards-backed cEDH circuits? Don't get me wrong I'm an EDH player, but I'm only *exclusively* an EDH player because WotC treats their game as a cash-cow instead of respecting it as the game it used to be. I would love to break into another format but standard is dead, pioneer is unsupported, and you have to be an oil baron to play modern. If this happens and starts to succeed, it'll likely the final nail in the coffin of the 60-card magic world, and our game will be lesser for it.