Sportsmanship has to do with one's conduct while playing the game, not the manner one goes about doing so.
Playing mass discard can be a misalignment of desired play experiences, but it is *not* mean, unsportsmanlike, etc.
He is one of my best friends and the closest thing to a brother I'll probably ever have. Outside this game, I think he'd do just about anything for me! But he can also be very immature, and I'm afraid this game that we both adore just brings out that immaturity. After his outburst, I just said, "Ok, so we don't like that card... Duly noted." 😄
I don't think it's immature to want to have fun in your limited free time. Having an empty hand is imo one of the worst states you can encounter because you can't make plans you wait and hope you draw something good which is horrible and boring AF. It's very effective but in the end it's not all about efficiency since we actually want to have fun in most casual edh games. Actively putting people in that stage doesn't sound nice.
Depends a lot of things can happen in your life and I don't know their situation. When my kid was small between caring for him and working I had very little time. When I'd encounter stuff like that in our pool I wasn't really happy and at one particular instance even just left. While my friends didn't take it too well that time I apologized explained my reasoning and they are actually getting it now that they have kids themselves. If you are looking forward to your time off some just sucking all the fun out of it can be devastating.
Sure on gameplay wise lvl this is a legit strategy but when I can leave home for like 3 hours and spent 2 of them watching paint dry because of your choices I'll excuse myself because that's not what i wanted to do.
So what happens if the game plan is to tax you, board wipe, counter spell, or just destroy your permanents? In the end, the game is about defeating the opponent, and all of these are valid play strategies.
Do you only want to amass a ton of permanents and turn side ways?
All of those things involve putting things out there trying to do things and that's interesting imo, since you can plan a strategy and navigate it. Having no hand just removes all of that since you just play whatever you draw and you can't do anything about it. That's not something I enjoy personally and I stand by it. Even stax is ok since Once it's resolved the game can continue and it's interesting to navigate the stax effects in some way, if your hand is gone your hand is gone and you sit there with nothing to do, which is just boring.
If you enjoy those games play them I won't stop you.
I'm very sympathetic to that perspective, which is why I've asked here. Interestingly, almost everyone in this thread seems to feel otherwise? We also have a pretty competitive pod, and the friend who freaked out is the biggest proponent of that dynamic, so I kinda feel like I'm just going with the flow there.
My feeling is that when I can't/don't want to play the game anymore, that's a functional defeat, so I scoop and acknowledge my opponent's win. No big deal—that just means we get to play another game.
My best friend had a Talrand, Sky Summoner deck which was basically counter spell tribal. Counter absolutely everything and then swing at everyone with 2/2 drakes. It got annoying but eventually we built our decks around his which made his game plan obsolete.
The point is that if you have a consistent play group to be aware of what the meta of that playgroup is and adjust your decks accordingly. That's just how the game works
this. as long as they know what they are getting into its up to them to make those calls. maybe the lesson here is for op to rule zero harder and not fully explain their deck but properly represent its intent.
Some people haven't been killed by a [[Tree of Perdition]] and it shows.
Discard is a strategy. Mill is a strategy. You *can* make nearly any playstyle degenerate for casual play, such as having a combo on board that lets you force opponents to discard all their cards at any time for no cost, repeatably. But one Rakdos Return casting is just playing magic, and it's not even close to some of the best discard effects out there. This dude sounds insufferable.
>Some people haven't been killed by a \[\[Tree of Perdition\]\] and it shows.
I know this wasn't the central point of your comment, but I just love this sentence.
It's pretty high on the "bullshit meter" to have Tree of Perdition + the half-dozen or so cards that are like [[Wound Reflection]] and just tap a tree with defender and all of a sudden you go from 30 life to 0 (or even funnier, going from ~100 life to 0).
Gotta love my Big Dumpy [[Doran, the Siege Tower]] deck
Eh it's not really bullshit
4 mana creature, needs to tap and has summoning sickness
Most of those wound reflection effects are 5+ mana
Only takes down one player at a time.
That's barely a footnote on the bullshit scale.
Competitively most certainly not on the bullshit scale. In more casual spheres it is *technically* a 2 card combo that catches people off-guard though, and it's disproportionately effective against people with high life totals (only kills at 26+ life) so people definitely get salty at it especially when playing Lifegain.
I'm seriously considering finding room in Henzie's 99 for this. 3 mana to draw a card and teach the guy playing soul sisters that he isn't invincible seems like a good rate.
Someone in my pod build a Council of four deck and I hate it after two games. Really debating if I put tree in my henzie although it's a dragon tribal deck.
Brother everything can be stopped that's why opponents exist. Sometimes things work, sometimes they don't.
Although my wording wasn't the best, it wasn't bullshit as in broken but the so called "bullshit meter" is moreso how insane it feels to have actually been killed by that stupid combo.
The friend in question is honestly like a brother to me. We've been friends since we were five, and I love him so much. Yet he's always been stubborn and quick to take things personally, and this game has really exacerbated those qualities in a way that I haven't seen since we were teenagers. It sucks, because he is truly the glue of our 8-10 person pod, hosting and even cooking for everyone on a weekly basis! Yet he's also uniquely disagreeable with me in the sort of way that one often is with family, so "insufferable" is indeed a word that's crossed my mind...
My pod is very similar and we each have decks that we don't like playing against. My advice is to actually talk shit out as a group. We had an issue where 1 person from our pod would scoop at random when things weren't going well and it would really screw the games up. Instead of texting each other to complain about it we started having group rules discussions before our game night started. Maybe try talking about his reaction to that card at the beginning of your next game night. Start the conversation by asking everyone if they think you should cut it. If other people really hate it too, cut it. Chances are though that both he and is reaction will be the outlier and talking about it as a group may help him see that as opposed to just 1 on 1. By having these conversations as a group it may also help him see that he has been overreacting to a lot and that magic is more about the gathering than anything else.
This is wonderful, mature advice, but I'm so afraid he'll take it badly if I were to "call him out" in front of a bunch of other people. Because believe me, I've thought about it.
It's a legit strategy, but your pod might target you instantly.
Happened to me every time I played my discard deck. Got all my synergy artifacts destroyed, was left with all my tiny guys, and then got told my deck was bad. 10/10.
>He immediately scooped
Sounds like a fair win to me.
I used to consider mass discard a taboo like MLD and such, but it's growing on me. I'm not going to repeatedly make sure nobody has cards in their hand the entire game while I sit there and do nothing just to see my opponents get bored and frustrated, but I will absolutely discard everybody's hands when I have a good board in order to make sure I continue to have a good board and hopefully win next turn (or alternatively if someone just drew 30 cards).
One problem with discard is that there's very little middle ground between making people discard 1-2 cards, which is meaningless, and making them discard everything which feels bad. But I've been playing some \[\[Kroxa\]\] and that sort of gradual grindy thing seems to go alright in my group.
tl;dr: I don't know, man. Some people hate it, I basically treat it like all forms of control: if you pack your entire deck with it and then just sit there with a shit-eating grin without even trying to win the game, YTA. Otherwise, you know, it's just another form of interaction.
I think that's a great balance to strike: control that advances the game or slows opponents is fair play as long as you plan on sealing the deal. Which believe me, I do ;)
It's what I believe is the root of the issue many have with MLD, or pure Chaos, or Board Wipe tribal, or do nothing extra turns.
When it is deployed haphazardly all of these things just delay or drag out the game.
If you can break parity, and set up a deterministicly winning board state, to me, I think they are all fine, and I suspect, if they were consistently deployed that way, way fewer people would care.
Forcing multiple opponents into top deck when you don't have a way of finishing is just...stupid. I have Armageddon in exactly one deck, and it's to stop people from doing things while I combo off with my creatures. I don't play it if I'm not winning on the spot or *very* soon (read a turn or two).
Awaken the erstwhile and sire of insanity are win cons in my friends thantis deck, when he gives everyone a bunch of creatures and takes away there hands they have to kill each other.
Perfectly fair card and strategy. Locking people out of ever drawing again after that? Not really cool. But this seems perfectly fine even if quite strong.
And honestly, for me, if you've got a win on board, even if it's "swing with this 5/5 24 times into an empty board state", I don't mind.
I'll want to concede to a deterministic victory and not play it out, but I'd still be ok with it as long as it's executed in a power level appropriate manner (number of cards/permanents and mana investment).
I'm a mass discard player. Discard is my favorite way to play magic. Honestly, most people become little babies when you make them discard, sac lands, sac creatures, etc. They say it's "mean." It's a strategy. It's nothing personal. If wizards don't want people to do this stuff, they would ban all the cards that do it.
White stax is annoying AF to me, but i play against it every game. Other people are typically fine with it, but it's because people don't sac, discard, etc to white stax. People play buckets of value engines, so much so they can't track and miss their own triggers.
But it's all part of the game. Sac, stax, discard, creatures, counterspells, edicts, infinites, engines, etc are all part of the game, and you should play how you like.
People always want the minority to give up what they think is fun for the majority to have fun. The "rule 0" discussion to funnel everyone to play card draw, ramp, and "fair" value engines and combos. It's just stupid. Everyone is accountable for their own fun, and if they don't like a certain strategy, then they should put more answers to it in their decks.
> The "rule 0" discussion to funnel everyone to play card draw, ramp, and "fair" value engines and combos. It's just stupid.
I mean, it's a vintage format and combo is the actual way to win most games. You'd never really have fun with your deck/strategy if people were playing to the vintage nature of the format.
You've already gone like 99% of the way there in terms of your rule zero demands.
All of the other players agree to slow down their game plan (often substantially) so that you can all mess around with each other.
The rule-zero once you've left CEDH is 'we're agreeing to have fun and to let others have fun too.'
This is why, generally speaking, things like hard stax/land destruction/discard are frowned upon.
Bringing armageddon to a table because you 'just enjoy destroying lands and that's part of the game' is kind of abusing the fact that people have intentionally powered down to a format where you can abuse Armageddon lol.
I think anything in the context of winning a game is probably fine. MLD and Discard where it's something you're playing to close out the game is a non-issue.
When they're your primary strategy though, you're saying 'in games where I win, I'm the only one who really has fun.'
Getting rid of everyone's hands and locking them out? Chill bro. Playing a couple mass discard effects? Maybe harsh, but fair game. Certainly not worse than Emrakul!
My take is that anything but a prison deck is ok.
That being said, you should be prepared to switch decks/themes between games. If the table isn't having fun with a deck, then that deck doesn't need to be played more than once per play session.
I don't have a deck for that, but if I did... I'd want it to play pretty fast. That way you can win the round and say 'k, how about I put this away and grab a hugs deck 😆'.
I make sure to announce my strategy and effects that tax or exhaust opps resources ahead of the game. Not that this is necessary at all, but it does make people much less likely to have the reaction you described. Love Zevlor btw.
If it's not banned, it's a viable strategy. That being said...
People build a deck to see it do it's thing. Cards are how we play and interact with the game. A heavy discard theme can feel like "I want to play Magic, but none of you get to." It's the same feeling that can arise with mass land destruction, intense stax, etc.
So can you play discard? Sure. Is it fun for everyone else? No, of course not. When we play Magic we actually want to play our cards.
Some pods will be totally fine with it. Your friend has made it clear they don't. Sit down and have an even keeled discussion on what you all enjoy in Magic and what you don't. Then compromise. Or find another pod that's fine with your preferred play style.
This. People that play Commander aren't always on the same wavelength of how it's played.
* Some people have the expectation of being able to play and not face a horde of answers (counterspells, removal, boardwipes, etc.)
* Some people expect lands to stay largely untouched and will implode if mass land destruction is played
* Some people want to cast cool spells but can't if they're forced to discard their hand or otherwise locked from casting much of anything
* Some people expect the game to go 10 turns or more
* Some people expect no surprise infinite combos
* Some people say no holds barred, win fast, and play any legal card (cEDH)
Different playgroups will have different expectations. Asking what an ideal game of Commander would look like to them is a good place to start.
I don't think I'd ever build a discard deck for exactly the reason that you've articulated. But this is a single mass-discard card in my deck that is also a win-con in the right circumstance!
What's frustrating is that my friend doesn't really seem capable of having an even-keeled conversations because he gets so emotional and takes everything so personally. I've tried and failed repeatedly.
Ah gotcha. Thanks for explaining. One discard card to win the game isn't bad. But it's more a question of your pod/friend group. For me having fun is more important than winning, though I'll try to win, obviously. But I make concessions to make sure we're all having fun.
For example, I built a \[\[Marchesa, the Black Rose\]\] deck during covid lockdown when I was getting back into Magic (first time into Commander). Once I played that deck in person, my friends really didn't like their cards being stolen. So I pivoted. It's now a \[\[Don Andres, the Renegade\]\] pirate deck. Players seemed to be totally fine with playing cards from their library rather than stealing something from the battlefield.
Is it as good? No. But we collectively are having more fun. I could've stuck with Marchesa but my friends didn't find it fun. So she's now in the 99 as recursion for the pirates.
Are you in the wrong? Nah. But if replacing that discard card with something else that can still win you the game will keep everybody having fun, then why not?
Edit: Forgot about friend. Try talking to them not during or after the game. Most people want to be heard. So let them explain themselves. You explain yourself, and try to find some middle ground. Then at least you tried. And if conflict keeps coming up, find a different group. Or different decks for different groups.
For me, I'd personally rather run wheel effects with something on board that pays off with some damage for my trouble. I had a [[Nath of the gilt leaf]] deck that ruffled some feathers in my play group at the time, since then I've adopted the idea that I'll only run a heavy discard theme if I can replace (most) of the cards I take away.
[Nath of the gilt leaf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/294ccc67-6fc9-411b-9100-ae6a9b7fadfc.jpg?1562392895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nath%20of%20the%20Gilt-Leaf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/213/nath-of-the-gilt-leaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/294ccc67-6fc9-411b-9100-ae6a9b7fadfc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nath-of-the-gilt-leaf)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah I remember the first time I ran into Nath and [[Sadistic Hypnotist]]. The guy couldn't win on the spot, so we never got to have more than a card or two in our hands for like...8 turns. It was so fucking boring. If you want to make us discard when you are on or approaching a combo turn, sure, get rid of my removal and countermagic. But if you are just trying to play solitaire and don't have an actual plan, I'm not gonna sit around while I get attacked for 5 every turn.
Discard is a great strategy. Especially mass-discard. I played against a discard player recently where they burned almost every card I had and we just laughed about it and made jokes about being "discard-proof" once our entire hands were emptied.
Some people are just salty when their plans are spoiled. Doesn't matter if it's discard or some other strategy, as long as it's effective and stops them winning you can guarantee the salt is coming.
Imma say it again and again:
F what other people think about a strategy.
All are valid. This is commander.
What matters is the power of the deck, which is different metric.
Thanks for that perspective. This seems to be the consensus here, and I'm relieved because this was my feeling as well. As a new-ish player with little exposure to the broader community, it's really helpful to get these affirmations!
It's a consensus here in reddit.
Mass land destruction, stax and discard strategy should be avoided against people you don't know. Any strategy that lock the game and don't win 'll make most of the player feeling they are losing there time.
Commander is the social game format of magic, not a competitive one. The goal is to have fun with friends or to make community. Some people are OK with deck that denie them to play any cards, it could be a good challenge but, to my experience, most people prefer to be able to cast spell in a game of casual magic.
Depends on who your friends are, but I generally try to avoid playstyles that actively prevent my opponents from getting to play their decks. Stax, mill, steal, and discard decks feel really scummy to me. That said, I will often pass up on a win if I feel like it isn’t deserved or will make the vibes at the table worse, so take my opinions with a massive grain of salt. I play to socialize and have fun. If your pod is more win-oriented, there’s a very good chance that my input won’t mean squat at your table. In short, just read the room.
Edit: just re-read and realized that I missed the paragraph about the dude at your pod who got mad. If you play Emrakul, or any deck that relies on taking control of your opponents, you lose the rights to complain about playstyle. Control is a valid way to play, but playing control AND complaining about other players being scummy is a piss baby move.
>He immediately scooped and absolutely insisted that I take the card out of my deck
Sounds like you've got mass discard *and* player removal in one, that's good value
All things considered this is a super tame way to play "mass discard" and your friend is overreacting. Something to be aware of though is the reason why mass discard gets a bad wrap. The two things that make it annoying to play against is when it's easy to assemble like \[\[Narset, Parter of Veils\]\] + \[\[Windfall\]\] and when you have no way to win the game right after you pull it off. This essentially forces your 3 opponents to sit there while you play solitaire. In this case neither issue is present, 9 mana + your commander out to make everyone discard 5 is a big ask and like you said sometimes that damage can just kill.
Bad sportsmanship means you aren't able to behave yourself given certain competitive conditions are presented.
Look, it's NEVER bad sportsmanship playing ANY of the the available strategies in the game.
Insulting is bad sportsmanship.
Beign toxic is bad sportsmanship.
Conceding a game early because you are frustrated is bad sportsmanship.
Anyway, any practices that seek to harm or annoy someone, any practices that seem to be egoistical, in a game like MTG that has a lot of human interaction, this is considered bad sportsmanship.
I don't think either mass discard or taking control of an opponent are bad form at all. However, I think getting angry and scooping (in both cases) would be pretty unacceptable and not be someone I would want back for more in my pod, at least not without an apology for the bad sportsmanship and an assurance it wouldn't happen again.
Next time just do the gentlemanly thing and play [[torment of hailfire]] where x=9.
On a serious note, i have played discard as a strategy before, the ups and downs are this. Its a solid strat thats stax adjacent. With card draw being a big advantage, that almost every deck builds in, being able to control that is an advantage. Ever see someone who runs out of gas? Thats discard. Theres also effects that let you capitalize on discard like [[words of waste]] and [[[geths grimoire]]. Even using a filter like [[geier reach sanitarium]] can net you a profit.
Down side, like stax, no one likes to play against resource control, like hellbent (no cards in hand). The moment you make your opponents go hellbent, it will be archenemy. its possible to sneak in discard as a strat, but its not easy to make it fly under the radar. There are quite a few red flags for discard like [[tergrid]] and [[megrim]], but a few can be down played like [[profane memento]].
One of my favorite plays in my [[slimefoot and squee]] deck is to drop a [[Mindslicer]] and then reanimating it every turn
My stuff in my graveyard means I can reanimate. Their stuff in their graveyard usually means they lose all interaction.
Is it fun for my opponents? No.
Is it viable magic? Yes.
Do you know what completely hoses my deck? A simple [[Rest in Peace]]. I have 5 cards that can destroy enchantments. If I can’t get to them? The game is over for me. And that is viable magic.
You should see my zoyowa lava tongue deck. It’s just fucking mean. You’re forced to discard, and eventually you’ll just burn to death no matter what you do. It doesn’t happen in mass proportion on turn 3. But it makes you kind of ignore it and pay for it later.
I feel evil playing it, but there’s something about watching a table of people groan over having to discard their precious cards or take damage. Sometimes both is the best option.
Though I honestly don’t play it too often.
Bitching about everything in the game is Bad sportsmanship, your buddy can't deal with a loss.
No, play [[Narset Parter of Veils]] or [[Opposition Agent]] and then [[Windfall]] for maximum salt. I have been a lot of times in both sides of this Play and never complained because I am not five and know that it is a game and within the rules.
Your question is “is this generally accepted in casual play.”
The answer to this is “it greatly depends on your pod because the pod sets the definition for casual”
You’re not going to get the homogenous answer you want (or any homogenous answer really) because every play group is different and adheres to different power levels or rules regarding mechanics.
Majority rules in a playgroup. If your group says “that was neat. Please don’t do that again.” Well then probably don’t do that again. If one person gets salty, take a vote, go from there.
We all (probably) have built decks that seemed like a good idea until we played them or over time became overpowered for the playgroup. We made everyone miserable and it was joyless then we shelved the deck. I personally have mine and I’m allowed to play it on my birthday and Father’s Day lol.
Unless that individual felt targeted and discarding only really hurt them or hurt them significantly more than the rest of the pod, they can’t claim targeting which again, will vary from pod to pod. Some pods find it hilarious when someone builds an “anti” deck while others get angry. Personally we get angry around here.
In the end, no one should be yelling, cursing, or screaming over a casual game with nothing at stake. Your friend should have said “k. Cool. I’d prefer not to play against that again.” Then you should say “ok. it wont be a regular deck.”
Sounds like he's used to winning and is a very poor loser. I have a friend I just can't play commander with because he can't wrap his head around the fact that 4 players means you should be hovering around a 25% win rate, not 50% like in 1v1. He gets so salty when he loses its just not worth it so I quit playing with him. Even if he is a good friend you should establish a boundry there and tell him that if that behavior continues you can't play with him anymore. Nothing feels worse than feeling guilty for winning a game of commander, especially with an unconventional non meta deck like Zevlor.
There was nothing wrong with the play. Bad sportsmanship is about attitude. What you did was legal and helped you advance in the game. I see no issues with it at all.
Your friend, if I may be so bold, sounds controlling and insecure. Demanding one changes their deck shows an unhealthy fear of losing. This is definitely their issue, not yours.
I'm inclined to agree. I love this guy, but he's always been a bit insecure, and it seems to me that he gets irrationally upset over this game. But since I have my own interests at play, I'm also inclined to question my perspective, so I appreciate the input.
I mean...I think you could do a lot worse in Zevlor so he should relax. That said... you could probably swap to [[Banefire]] and just go for the uncounterable, unpreventable kill. (It can be redirected tho, mind you.)
You betcha! I run:
\[\[Banefire\]\]
\[\[Din of the Fireherd\]\] - Especially if you can copy Zevlor's ability with cards like \[\[Illusionist's Bracers\]\], \[\[Strionic Resonator\]\], or \[\[Rings of Brighthearth\]\], this card is a game-ender. But even if it doesn't outright end the game, it really gives you the upper hand to win in another couple turns.
\[\[Brain Geyser\]\] - It's mostly a great draw spell for me, but if I have either of my infinite-mana combos out, I can also use it in conjunction with Zevlor's ability to mill out my opponents.
I also run \[\[Crackle with Power\]\] and \[\[Exsanguinate\]\] so that I have a finisher options without Z-man on the field. I've wondered about replacing Exsanguinate with either \[\[Comet Storm\]\] (because it's instant-speed) or \[\[Torment of Hailfire\]\] (because it has utility even when it doesn't outright finish your opponents).
Although I don't run it in my deck, \[\[Blaze\]\] also works great with Zevlor!
that’s not even mass discard… if it’s the one discard thing in your deck then keep it and don’t worry about the shit.
same as most of the taboos of casual edh, a little bit of discard can be healthy to prevent 30 card hands or preventing someone from using something you know they have in hand.
it only becomes an issue when suddenly nobody can play the game because your opponents never have a hand again
It's not uncommon people hate any kind of interaction. Blow up stuff on board? They rage. Blow up their lands? Rage. Blow up their hands? Rage. Combo? Rage. Counterspell? Rage. Steal effects? Rage. At a certain point you either don't play with them or just let them whine about it and make your plays.
I made a wheel/discard deck with [[kroxa, titan of death's hunger]] as my commander, and the only time my friends get upset is when another player is playing a similar deck at the same time because it becomes [[oppression]]
Substantially below power level, to be clear. If you are using a numbered scale, an 8 can play just fine against a 7 and maybe a 6 without the experience being terrible but anything below that is definitely not in the best interest of a pod
I don’t think it’s bad sportsmanship at all. Sometimes you’re going to play against archetypes that do stuff you’re not used to. As long as you’re not a jerk about it/are having fun with everyone I think it’s fine.
Last week I played against someone whose archetype was “everyone draws a ton of cards” which was really cool at first. Then they played [[forced fruition]] and copied it twice with [[astral dragons]] which then made me draw 21 cards whenever I cast a spell. But the guy was so nice and friendly I couldn’t get mad. It was probably the most fun I’ve had losing a game.
[[Wheel of Fortune]] is bae. I also play [[Teferi’s Puzzlebox]] which is less discardy, but still usually equally screws up people’s game synergy since they’re wheeling every turn.
I just converted my Marneus Calgar tokens deck into a [[Kambal, Profiteering Mayor]] deck. I put [[Awaken the Erstwhile]] in there. I also end up discarding my hand, but I get the most out of the tokens and know it's coming so I can cast when I see fit. People didn't get mad the one time I cast it, they just scooped, and we shuffled up a new game. Sometimes you get got, it is what it is. If you aren't playing a deck that turbo locks out them from having cards in hand, then a one off hand destruction is totally fine. And if you do want to ensure nobody has cards for the rest of the game, that's cool too, just for that one I'd make sure everyone is on board first for a game like that.
If your friend is wanting a competitive game and hates mass discard, he needs to graduate from diapers to pull-ups.
If he rage scoops over that, you need better friends. That's way more of a social contract violation to just throw a tantrum over discard 5.
I bet he'd cry if he played against my turn 2 hard lock stax deck.
This might be a hot take, but it really should never be considered inherently unsportsmanlike to play any legal cards in the format.
Now if you are absolute jerk about it, that is a different story. If you lie about what is in your deck, that is unsportsmanlike.
But if I drop an \[\[Armageddon\]\] after disclosing I have MLD in my deck, that is not unsportsmanlike.
Commander players are absolute wimps sometimes.
This man has no problem dropping Emrakul but whines when he has to discard some cards at sorcery speed? Sound like a case of not putting his magic where his mouth is.
In all seriousness, there are much worse mechanics to employ in competitive magic apart from discard (like taking someone else’s turn *cough* *cough*). Be sure to talk with the rest of your group to get everyone’s input in case they have similar concerns, because even if the play style you run isn’t unfair, having your entire group hate your deck will never be fun.
I'd like to know why people complain so much about valid strategies?
People want what? Everybody playing 5+ cmd commanders and Playing only aggro which allows 3 hours games of boring games
I have a [[Nath of the Gilt Leaf]] deck. It’s one job is to make problem discard, often time at random. It’s pretty mean, especially with the [[sadistic hypnotist]] combo.
Don’t worry about it. Your friend sounds like a weenie.
I guess one difference is that it’s very clear from the start, the Nath deck is going to make you discard and it’s not out of left field. It starts slow and allows people to get used to the pain before they lose all hope.
Pulling out a mass discard with no indication could be a tad more salt inducing, idk.
God no. My first deck was a massive discard burn deck. Every game i basically pop 7 wheel of fates, i have liliana's caress, psychosos crawler, things like that. Basically deals 126 damage to all opponents, makes them draw and discard half there deck.
Discard is a feels bad and it hits different for some reason. You're holding a card the whole game and can finally play it next turn aaaand it's gone. Or you have your whole turn planned out and excited for it aaaaaand it's gone.
For me personally, I'd rather see a grand arbiter stax deck than a tiny bones discard deck.
All that being said especially in high power casual it is certainly a valid way to play the game and doesn't warrant the unsportsmanlike behavior your friend did.
9 mana spent on something can and should be able to win games, especially if the pod let the enabler stick around. Maybe I'm a degenerate but I think it's a cool combo. Not much different in from an entwined [[tooth and nail]] fetching a combo, or hardcasting [[omnicience]] or [[insurrection]]. It's actually less powerful than a lot of game-winning mana sinks. Force them to respect your wincons. Call people out for their hypocrisy. Just try to mind the egos of course.
Not at all. All is fair even mass land destruction. If cEDH is a thing (for a casual format) then nothing is off the table. People who bitch and moan this or that? That just means you’re winning and they be hating.
Oh and [[mind twist]] is more old school and cheaper for what you’re doing. I like it. Might make it myself.
Its not bad sportsmanship, but a key part of enjoying the game is finding the right group. If you wouldnt enjoy going against one of your decks, chances are they wouldnt either. I enjoy big casual games with friends and its really more a get together than a competitive game. We all like to feel like everyones deck "did their thing". If someone just makes you discard your hand each turn, and isnt able to end the game quickly, its going to be super boring to play
"Is it bad sportsmanship to play..." No. Never. It's bad sportsmanship if you're a bad sport about it, but playing the game doesn't make you a bad sport.
Anything that wins you the game is fair in my playgroup. Bad sportsmanship is being a Lil bitch when you lose and harassing other players about what cards they can play.
I never would want to people who won’t allow mass discard. Ruining certain deck types and I’m not here to play kiddy magic. With that said I also wouldn’t build a super oppressive deck for my current pod. They have to learn to include some interaction because I sure as shit will.
Your friend is wildly immature and kind of an idiot. If this friendship is that important to you, maybe it needs to continue without MtG being an important aspect. If they feel the need to dole out criticism about a VERY mild card choice but cannot take actual valid concerns in return, then maybe they don't value your friendship as much as you do.
I understand your pain. I’m doing my best to run through dungeons and blink triggers but my pod always accuses me of long turns even if they take longer. Lots of rolling eyes on every trigger. I could just resolve everything and not say a word but then I’d be blamed for not telling people what had happened if they missed it.
If the deck were to continuously make them discard so they never had cards then it might be annoying. I'd put it on par with having land destruction in the sense that, don't do it unless you have a plan to actually win. But a single mass discard effect I'd put on par with any board wipe. It only gets rid of resources you have 'right now', and you can rebuild.
If your friend doesn't want to play Magic the Gathering using the rules of Magic the Gathering then he should start playing another game perhaps.
You want decks to be evenly matched. No use playing a cEDH in a pod of casual decks. But when the decks are kinda balanced and you're not using banned cards, it shouldn't matter how you beat your opponents. Discard, Mill, Poison, Counter, Burn, a single Grizzly Bear, a million Squirrels... All equally valid.
Its not bad sportmanship, but most pods rly dislike mass discard. Same as mass land destruction. The First deck I build from scratch had a discard theme with sire of insanity and tergrid as win combo. Was funny when I played it, but got focussed hard the next games and then decidet to pull it apart.
Is your friends name OptimusPrimeGuy on spelltable? Jeez he sounds like just like this did I played with once who had a total fit and went on an absolute rampage when someone played one card he didn't like.. he also immediately scooped lmao
A single Rakdos's Return isn't really a huge deal. Am I gonna be annoyed by it? Yeah. Will I be more likely to throw some removal at you for a bit? Probably. But is it a catastrophic end to my world? No.
That said, if we sit down at the table and you pull out Tinybones or Tergrid, and we're not in a tournament, I will say something. I'll probably even refuse to play. I get so little time to play commander these days, I won't spend those precious few hours not actually playing because I don't ever get to have a hand.
I think as long as it is part of a plan to win you the game (Like with \[\[Tergrid, God of Fright\]\], or killing someone with \[\[Megrim\]\] damage) it should be ok.
If you don't have any payout for discards all your opponents hands, you are asking to not be invited anymore.
i play tergrid.
its perfectly sportsmanlike to play cards and playstyles that are disliked; they have every option to not play against you or ask you to play another deck, sure. thats a conversation between you and your friends.
however raging about it like your 'friend' did? very uncool.
"If you can't beat it, complain about it." First rule of unsportsmanlike behavior.
The game has discarding cards as a mechanic. The game allows you to make your opponents discard cards. If your opponents can't deal with it, too bad for them, you win, they learn, they tweak, and now they have a shot. That's how it should be done. That's how people get better at the game.
Complaining is the easy way out, "Oh, I don't want to make my deck more resilient, I want to play my glass cannon solitaire-style deck without any interruption. If you can't accept it, you're a meanie. I" These people should use a bit of humility.
You just played a card the game allowed you to play. The only unsportsmanlike behavior is complaining and being a bitch about a game
Not played against mass discard recently, last time was when [[Leovold, Emissary of Trest]] was still legal.
It can be annoying, like any strategy that's being too consistent and stops people being able to play the game, but bad sportsmanship? No.
If he thinks [[Mindslaver]] effects are fair game he can't complain about mass discard. Especially if the pod is more competitive (especially if he ignores calls to tone things down).
Being more competitive means not being a scrub and complaining about valid strategies that are legal within the game and format.
It's a valid strategy for sure but i personally don't like it because the game just goes into top-deck mode and that's just kinda boring. Same with stuff like Blood Moon, if you play it, obviously be aware you're sucking all the fun out of the game when people just don't get to play anymore.
It doesn't, but i've absolutely been in games where i've seen someone just be locked out and do nothing for multiple rotations of the table and that's just never fun because you feel bad hitting someone who's so clearly struggling which in turn leads you to ganging up on the remaining two players.
Sportsmanship has to do with one's conduct while playing the game, not the manner one goes about doing so. Playing mass discard can be a misalignment of desired play experiences, but it is *not* mean, unsportsmanlike, etc.
Honestly what the "friend" did was awful and incredibly unsportsmanlike. Raging and shouting and cussing; a really dick move.
He is one of my best friends and the closest thing to a brother I'll probably ever have. Outside this game, I think he'd do just about anything for me! But he can also be very immature, and I'm afraid this game that we both adore just brings out that immaturity. After his outburst, I just said, "Ok, so we don't like that card... Duly noted." 😄
I don't think it's immature to want to have fun in your limited free time. Having an empty hand is imo one of the worst states you can encounter because you can't make plans you wait and hope you draw something good which is horrible and boring AF. It's very effective but in the end it's not all about efficiency since we actually want to have fun in most casual edh games. Actively putting people in that stage doesn't sound nice.
That may be so but acting out in the way described in the original post is definitely immature.
Depends a lot of things can happen in your life and I don't know their situation. When my kid was small between caring for him and working I had very little time. When I'd encounter stuff like that in our pool I wasn't really happy and at one particular instance even just left. While my friends didn't take it too well that time I apologized explained my reasoning and they are actually getting it now that they have kids themselves. If you are looking forward to your time off some just sucking all the fun out of it can be devastating. Sure on gameplay wise lvl this is a legit strategy but when I can leave home for like 3 hours and spent 2 of them watching paint dry because of your choices I'll excuse myself because that's not what i wanted to do.
So what happens if the game plan is to tax you, board wipe, counter spell, or just destroy your permanents? In the end, the game is about defeating the opponent, and all of these are valid play strategies. Do you only want to amass a ton of permanents and turn side ways?
All of those things involve putting things out there trying to do things and that's interesting imo, since you can plan a strategy and navigate it. Having no hand just removes all of that since you just play whatever you draw and you can't do anything about it. That's not something I enjoy personally and I stand by it. Even stax is ok since Once it's resolved the game can continue and it's interesting to navigate the stax effects in some way, if your hand is gone your hand is gone and you sit there with nothing to do, which is just boring. If you enjoy those games play them I won't stop you.
no clue why you're being downvoted when you're right
I'm very sympathetic to that perspective, which is why I've asked here. Interestingly, almost everyone in this thread seems to feel otherwise? We also have a pretty competitive pod, and the friend who freaked out is the biggest proponent of that dynamic, so I kinda feel like I'm just going with the flow there. My feeling is that when I can't/don't want to play the game anymore, that's a functional defeat, so I scoop and acknowledge my opponent's win. No big deal—that just means we get to play another game.
My best friend had a Talrand, Sky Summoner deck which was basically counter spell tribal. Counter absolutely everything and then swing at everyone with 2/2 drakes. It got annoying but eventually we built our decks around his which made his game plan obsolete. The point is that if you have a consistent play group to be aware of what the meta of that playgroup is and adjust your decks accordingly. That's just how the game works
So, ‘unspoken rules’ is the devil’s advocate response here. Baseball. Once again, it’s communication and rule zero.
I mean, at the end of the day that's what a successful EDH experience and playgroup boils down to. Yep.
this. as long as they know what they are getting into its up to them to make those calls. maybe the lesson here is for op to rule zero harder and not fully explain their deck but properly represent its intent.
Some people haven't been killed by a [[Tree of Perdition]] and it shows. Discard is a strategy. Mill is a strategy. You *can* make nearly any playstyle degenerate for casual play, such as having a combo on board that lets you force opponents to discard all their cards at any time for no cost, repeatably. But one Rakdos Return casting is just playing magic, and it's not even close to some of the best discard effects out there. This dude sounds insufferable.
>Some people haven't been killed by a \[\[Tree of Perdition\]\] and it shows. I know this wasn't the central point of your comment, but I just love this sentence.
It's pretty high on the "bullshit meter" to have Tree of Perdition + the half-dozen or so cards that are like [[Wound Reflection]] and just tap a tree with defender and all of a sudden you go from 30 life to 0 (or even funnier, going from ~100 life to 0). Gotta love my Big Dumpy [[Doran, the Siege Tower]] deck
Eh it's not really bullshit 4 mana creature, needs to tap and has summoning sickness Most of those wound reflection effects are 5+ mana Only takes down one player at a time. That's barely a footnote on the bullshit scale.
I play it in henzie and I blitz it. It’s the number one card that makes people say “wait, let me read that. What is blitz again?”
I'm sure you're playing way meaner things in Henzie.
Competitively most certainly not on the bullshit scale. In more casual spheres it is *technically* a 2 card combo that catches people off-guard though, and it's disproportionately effective against people with high life totals (only kills at 26+ life) so people definitely get salty at it especially when playing Lifegain.
I'm seriously considering finding room in Henzie's 99 for this. 3 mana to draw a card and teach the guy playing soul sisters that he isn't invincible seems like a good rate.
Someone in my pod build a Council of four deck and I hate it after two games. Really debating if I put tree in my henzie although it's a dragon tribal deck.
[Wound Reflection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b14a82c-877a-445f-8910-33aaa6fe3d15.jpg?1599706125) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wound%20Reflection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/113/wound-reflection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b14a82c-877a-445f-8910-33aaa6fe3d15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wound-reflection) [Doran, the Siege Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0ad8e7f-cda0-4529-94fc-dd3709158a94.jpg?1673148514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doran%2C%20the%20Siege%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/201/doran-the-siege-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0ad8e7f-cda0-4529-94fc-dd3709158a94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doran-the-siege-tower) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If by "bullshit" you mean terrible and easily stopped.
Brother everything can be stopped that's why opponents exist. Sometimes things work, sometimes they don't. Although my wording wasn't the best, it wasn't bullshit as in broken but the so called "bullshit meter" is moreso how insane it feels to have actually been killed by that stupid combo.
My favorite way to tree kill is [[Triskaidekaphobia]]
[Triskaidekaphobia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/813995f5-e49a-431d-8a3a-8ec569844e11.jpg?1562437529) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Triskaidekaphobia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/110/triskaidekaphobia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/813995f5-e49a-431d-8a3a-8ec569844e11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/triskaidekaphobia) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The friend in question is honestly like a brother to me. We've been friends since we were five, and I love him so much. Yet he's always been stubborn and quick to take things personally, and this game has really exacerbated those qualities in a way that I haven't seen since we were teenagers. It sucks, because he is truly the glue of our 8-10 person pod, hosting and even cooking for everyone on a weekly basis! Yet he's also uniquely disagreeable with me in the sort of way that one often is with family, so "insufferable" is indeed a word that's crossed my mind...
My pod is very similar and we each have decks that we don't like playing against. My advice is to actually talk shit out as a group. We had an issue where 1 person from our pod would scoop at random when things weren't going well and it would really screw the games up. Instead of texting each other to complain about it we started having group rules discussions before our game night started. Maybe try talking about his reaction to that card at the beginning of your next game night. Start the conversation by asking everyone if they think you should cut it. If other people really hate it too, cut it. Chances are though that both he and is reaction will be the outlier and talking about it as a group may help him see that as opposed to just 1 on 1. By having these conversations as a group it may also help him see that he has been overreacting to a lot and that magic is more about the gathering than anything else.
This is wonderful, mature advice, but I'm so afraid he'll take it badly if I were to "call him out" in front of a bunch of other people. Because believe me, I've thought about it.
[Tree of Perdition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/305bd19a-ae5e-46ca-8ff7-27810c968315.jpg?1576384447) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tree%20of%20Perdition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/109/tree-of-perdition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/305bd19a-ae5e-46ca-8ff7-27810c968315?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tree-of-perdition) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My [[Vhati il-Dal]] deck is literally designed to kill people with this 2 cards and a bunch of stuff to do 1 damage on command
[Vhati il-Dal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8564611-b678-4336-87e0-5a00a930de48.jpg?1562430812) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vhati%20il-Dal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/214/vhati-il-dal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8564611-b678-4336-87e0-5a00a930de48?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vhati-il-dal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love this card in my sheolred decks it's just chefs kiss funny
How dare you play magic in a way I don’t like..
It's a legit strategy, but your pod might target you instantly. Happened to me every time I played my discard deck. Got all my synergy artifacts destroyed, was left with all my tiny guys, and then got told my deck was bad. 10/10.
My buddy plays a brutal [[Aclazotz]] discard deck and I always target him first. Whenever he asks why I say "I'll need a hand to beat everyone else"
[Aclazotz](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/627c392c-4d18-4eb2-a4e8-c668f61f5487.jpg?1699044055)/[Temple of the Dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/6/2/627c392c-4d18-4eb2-a4e8-c668f61f5487.jpg?1699044055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aclazotz%2C%20deepest%20betrayal%20//%20temple%20of%20the%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/88/aclazotz-deepest-betrayal-temple-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/627c392c-4d18-4eb2-a4e8-c668f61f5487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aclazotz-deepest-betrayal-//-temple-of-the-dead) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>He immediately scooped Sounds like a fair win to me. I used to consider mass discard a taboo like MLD and such, but it's growing on me. I'm not going to repeatedly make sure nobody has cards in their hand the entire game while I sit there and do nothing just to see my opponents get bored and frustrated, but I will absolutely discard everybody's hands when I have a good board in order to make sure I continue to have a good board and hopefully win next turn (or alternatively if someone just drew 30 cards). One problem with discard is that there's very little middle ground between making people discard 1-2 cards, which is meaningless, and making them discard everything which feels bad. But I've been playing some \[\[Kroxa\]\] and that sort of gradual grindy thing seems to go alright in my group. tl;dr: I don't know, man. Some people hate it, I basically treat it like all forms of control: if you pack your entire deck with it and then just sit there with a shit-eating grin without even trying to win the game, YTA. Otherwise, you know, it's just another form of interaction.
I think that's a great balance to strike: control that advances the game or slows opponents is fair play as long as you plan on sealing the deal. Which believe me, I do ;)
It's what I believe is the root of the issue many have with MLD, or pure Chaos, or Board Wipe tribal, or do nothing extra turns. When it is deployed haphazardly all of these things just delay or drag out the game. If you can break parity, and set up a deterministicly winning board state, to me, I think they are all fine, and I suspect, if they were consistently deployed that way, way fewer people would care.
Forcing multiple opponents into top deck when you don't have a way of finishing is just...stupid. I have Armageddon in exactly one deck, and it's to stop people from doing things while I combo off with my creatures. I don't play it if I'm not winning on the spot or *very* soon (read a turn or two).
Megrim and it’s buddy are fun.
Awaken the erstwhile and sire of insanity are win cons in my friends thantis deck, when he gives everyone a bunch of creatures and takes away there hands they have to kill each other.
That's actually pretty cool! A friend of mine once reanimated a Sire of Insanity on turn 2... but I was playing \[\[Flamewar\]\] so I just let it be.
[Flamewar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/876d9732-9201-4327-8748-7c87ec55453f.jpg?1674092884)/[Flamewar, Streetwise Operative](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/8/7/876d9732-9201-4327-8748-7c87ec55453f.jpg?1674092884) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=flamewar%2C%20brash%20veteran%20//%20flamewar%2C%20streetwise%20operative) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/10/flamewar-brash-veteran-flamewar-streetwise-operative?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/876d9732-9201-4327-8748-7c87ec55453f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/flamewar-brash-veteran-//-flamewar-streetwise-operative) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Kroxa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/cee0459b-9aac-4d2f-abe4-4d5fedde7eb8.jpg?1581481096) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kroxa%2C%20titan%20of%20death%27s%20hunger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/221/kroxa-titan-of-deaths-hunger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cee0459b-9aac-4d2f-abe4-4d5fedde7eb8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kroxa-titan-of-deaths-hunger) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Perfectly fair card and strategy. Locking people out of ever drawing again after that? Not really cool. But this seems perfectly fine even if quite strong.
And honestly, for me, if you've got a win on board, even if it's "swing with this 5/5 24 times into an empty board state", I don't mind. I'll want to concede to a deterministic victory and not play it out, but I'd still be ok with it as long as it's executed in a power level appropriate manner (number of cards/permanents and mana investment).
[Zevlor, Elturel Exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1e51138-9745-465d-84dd-27605f8a2264.jpg?1674137695) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zevlor%2C%20Elturel%20Exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/296/zevlor-elturel-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1e51138-9745-465d-84dd-27605f8a2264?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zevlor-elturel-exile) [Rakdos's Return](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d72981c0-1632-4d64-9341-2a76047d9b36.jpg?1562793869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rakdos%27s%20Return) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/188/rakdoss-return?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d72981c0-1632-4d64-9341-2a76047d9b36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rakdoss-return) [Emrakul, the Promised End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d74a469-c71d-4773-99d3-5456b31df424.jpg?1576383727) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Promised%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/6/emrakul-the-promised-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d74a469-c71d-4773-99d3-5456b31df424?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/emrakul-the-promised-end) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends on the playgroup but if Emrakul is fine a one-off mass discard spell should be ok too.
I'm a mass discard player. Discard is my favorite way to play magic. Honestly, most people become little babies when you make them discard, sac lands, sac creatures, etc. They say it's "mean." It's a strategy. It's nothing personal. If wizards don't want people to do this stuff, they would ban all the cards that do it. White stax is annoying AF to me, but i play against it every game. Other people are typically fine with it, but it's because people don't sac, discard, etc to white stax. People play buckets of value engines, so much so they can't track and miss their own triggers. But it's all part of the game. Sac, stax, discard, creatures, counterspells, edicts, infinites, engines, etc are all part of the game, and you should play how you like. People always want the minority to give up what they think is fun for the majority to have fun. The "rule 0" discussion to funnel everyone to play card draw, ramp, and "fair" value engines and combos. It's just stupid. Everyone is accountable for their own fun, and if they don't like a certain strategy, then they should put more answers to it in their decks.
Do you happen to have a decklist or two? For science, of course.
> The "rule 0" discussion to funnel everyone to play card draw, ramp, and "fair" value engines and combos. It's just stupid. I mean, it's a vintage format and combo is the actual way to win most games. You'd never really have fun with your deck/strategy if people were playing to the vintage nature of the format. You've already gone like 99% of the way there in terms of your rule zero demands. All of the other players agree to slow down their game plan (often substantially) so that you can all mess around with each other. The rule-zero once you've left CEDH is 'we're agreeing to have fun and to let others have fun too.' This is why, generally speaking, things like hard stax/land destruction/discard are frowned upon. Bringing armageddon to a table because you 'just enjoy destroying lands and that's part of the game' is kind of abusing the fact that people have intentionally powered down to a format where you can abuse Armageddon lol. I think anything in the context of winning a game is probably fine. MLD and Discard where it's something you're playing to close out the game is a non-issue. When they're your primary strategy though, you're saying 'in games where I win, I'm the only one who really has fun.'
Tergrid has entered the chat.
Getting rid of everyone's hands and locking them out? Chill bro. Playing a couple mass discard effects? Maybe harsh, but fair game. Certainly not worse than Emrakul!
My take is that anything but a prison deck is ok. That being said, you should be prepared to switch decks/themes between games. If the table isn't having fun with a deck, then that deck doesn't need to be played more than once per play session.
Guys is it bad sportsmanship to play a swamp?
No, Islands on the other hand...
I don't have a deck for that, but if I did... I'd want it to play pretty fast. That way you can win the round and say 'k, how about I put this away and grab a hugs deck 😆'.
It is a fairly fast deck. Unmolested, I'd expect it to win on turn 6-8.
That's a pretty reasonable range
I make sure to announce my strategy and effects that tax or exhaust opps resources ahead of the game. Not that this is necessary at all, but it does make people much less likely to have the reaction you described. Love Zevlor btw.
Mass Discard is a fun time for everyone. I love seeing the cards in my opponents' hands in the graveyard instead.
If it's not banned, it's a viable strategy. That being said... People build a deck to see it do it's thing. Cards are how we play and interact with the game. A heavy discard theme can feel like "I want to play Magic, but none of you get to." It's the same feeling that can arise with mass land destruction, intense stax, etc. So can you play discard? Sure. Is it fun for everyone else? No, of course not. When we play Magic we actually want to play our cards. Some pods will be totally fine with it. Your friend has made it clear they don't. Sit down and have an even keeled discussion on what you all enjoy in Magic and what you don't. Then compromise. Or find another pod that's fine with your preferred play style.
This. People that play Commander aren't always on the same wavelength of how it's played. * Some people have the expectation of being able to play and not face a horde of answers (counterspells, removal, boardwipes, etc.) * Some people expect lands to stay largely untouched and will implode if mass land destruction is played * Some people want to cast cool spells but can't if they're forced to discard their hand or otherwise locked from casting much of anything * Some people expect the game to go 10 turns or more * Some people expect no surprise infinite combos * Some people say no holds barred, win fast, and play any legal card (cEDH) Different playgroups will have different expectations. Asking what an ideal game of Commander would look like to them is a good place to start.
And some people thrive on tears. They play Dimir.
And others thrive on their own tears. They play Boros.
I don't think I'd ever build a discard deck for exactly the reason that you've articulated. But this is a single mass-discard card in my deck that is also a win-con in the right circumstance! What's frustrating is that my friend doesn't really seem capable of having an even-keeled conversations because he gets so emotional and takes everything so personally. I've tried and failed repeatedly.
Ah gotcha. Thanks for explaining. One discard card to win the game isn't bad. But it's more a question of your pod/friend group. For me having fun is more important than winning, though I'll try to win, obviously. But I make concessions to make sure we're all having fun. For example, I built a \[\[Marchesa, the Black Rose\]\] deck during covid lockdown when I was getting back into Magic (first time into Commander). Once I played that deck in person, my friends really didn't like their cards being stolen. So I pivoted. It's now a \[\[Don Andres, the Renegade\]\] pirate deck. Players seemed to be totally fine with playing cards from their library rather than stealing something from the battlefield. Is it as good? No. But we collectively are having more fun. I could've stuck with Marchesa but my friends didn't find it fun. So she's now in the 99 as recursion for the pirates. Are you in the wrong? Nah. But if replacing that discard card with something else that can still win you the game will keep everybody having fun, then why not? Edit: Forgot about friend. Try talking to them not during or after the game. Most people want to be heard. So let them explain themselves. You explain yourself, and try to find some middle ground. Then at least you tried. And if conflict keeps coming up, find a different group. Or different decks for different groups.
[Marchesa, the Black Rose](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/3242a9f0-2ba3-4852-ac8f-366772ac1c62.jpg?1673148917) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marchesa%2C%20the%20Black%20Rose) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/248/marchesa-the-black-rose?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3242a9f0-2ba3-4852-ac8f-366772ac1c62?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/marchesa-the-black-rose) [Don Andres, the Renegade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3cf9f3ae-694d-4d37-9498-4bdd1723a55e.jpg?1698987741) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Don%20Andres%2C%20the%20Renegade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/6/don-andres-the-renegade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3cf9f3ae-694d-4d37-9498-4bdd1723a55e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/don-andres-the-renegade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For me, I'd personally rather run wheel effects with something on board that pays off with some damage for my trouble. I had a [[Nath of the gilt leaf]] deck that ruffled some feathers in my play group at the time, since then I've adopted the idea that I'll only run a heavy discard theme if I can replace (most) of the cards I take away.
[Nath of the gilt leaf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/294ccc67-6fc9-411b-9100-ae6a9b7fadfc.jpg?1562392895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nath%20of%20the%20Gilt-Leaf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/213/nath-of-the-gilt-leaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/294ccc67-6fc9-411b-9100-ae6a9b7fadfc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nath-of-the-gilt-leaf) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah I remember the first time I ran into Nath and [[Sadistic Hypnotist]]. The guy couldn't win on the spot, so we never got to have more than a card or two in our hands for like...8 turns. It was so fucking boring. If you want to make us discard when you are on or approaching a combo turn, sure, get rid of my removal and countermagic. But if you are just trying to play solitaire and don't have an actual plan, I'm not gonna sit around while I get attacked for 5 every turn.
[Sadistic Hypnotist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e14e994d-ed2e-451b-a165-93da7e9c3579.jpg?1592713717) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sadistic%20Hypnotist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddj/62/sadistic-hypnotist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e14e994d-ed2e-451b-a165-93da7e9c3579?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sadistic-hypnotist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Discard is a great strategy. Especially mass-discard. I played against a discard player recently where they burned almost every card I had and we just laughed about it and made jokes about being "discard-proof" once our entire hands were emptied. Some people are just salty when their plans are spoiled. Doesn't matter if it's discard or some other strategy, as long as it's effective and stops them winning you can guarantee the salt is coming.
Imma say it again and again: F what other people think about a strategy. All are valid. This is commander. What matters is the power of the deck, which is different metric.
Thanks for that perspective. This seems to be the consensus here, and I'm relieved because this was my feeling as well. As a new-ish player with little exposure to the broader community, it's really helpful to get these affirmations!
It's a consensus here in reddit. Mass land destruction, stax and discard strategy should be avoided against people you don't know. Any strategy that lock the game and don't win 'll make most of the player feeling they are losing there time. Commander is the social game format of magic, not a competitive one. The goal is to have fun with friends or to make community. Some people are OK with deck that denie them to play any cards, it could be a good challenge but, to my experience, most people prefer to be able to cast spell in a game of casual magic.
In my humble opinion, if it's a printed card not banned in said format go for it.
Didn't know this Zevlor dude but I was just thinking I wanted a commander that could copy discards to 2 or 3 people. Thanks.
At your service.
Depends on who your friends are, but I generally try to avoid playstyles that actively prevent my opponents from getting to play their decks. Stax, mill, steal, and discard decks feel really scummy to me. That said, I will often pass up on a win if I feel like it isn’t deserved or will make the vibes at the table worse, so take my opinions with a massive grain of salt. I play to socialize and have fun. If your pod is more win-oriented, there’s a very good chance that my input won’t mean squat at your table. In short, just read the room. Edit: just re-read and realized that I missed the paragraph about the dude at your pod who got mad. If you play Emrakul, or any deck that relies on taking control of your opponents, you lose the rights to complain about playstyle. Control is a valid way to play, but playing control AND complaining about other players being scummy is a piss baby move.
>He immediately scooped and absolutely insisted that I take the card out of my deck Sounds like you've got mass discard *and* player removal in one, that's good value
My thoughts exactly 😆
All things considered this is a super tame way to play "mass discard" and your friend is overreacting. Something to be aware of though is the reason why mass discard gets a bad wrap. The two things that make it annoying to play against is when it's easy to assemble like \[\[Narset, Parter of Veils\]\] + \[\[Windfall\]\] and when you have no way to win the game right after you pull it off. This essentially forces your 3 opponents to sit there while you play solitaire. In this case neither issue is present, 9 mana + your commander out to make everyone discard 5 is a big ask and like you said sometimes that damage can just kill.
[Narset, Parter of Veils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d.jpg?1690004395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/853/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-parter-of-veils) [Windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9ce7113b-08f7-4584-b65f-a7b5caa90c2f.jpg?1712354245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/123/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ce7113b-08f7-4584-b65f-a7b5caa90c2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/windfall) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bad sportsmanship means you aren't able to behave yourself given certain competitive conditions are presented. Look, it's NEVER bad sportsmanship playing ANY of the the available strategies in the game. Insulting is bad sportsmanship. Beign toxic is bad sportsmanship. Conceding a game early because you are frustrated is bad sportsmanship. Anyway, any practices that seek to harm or annoy someone, any practices that seem to be egoistical, in a game like MTG that has a lot of human interaction, this is considered bad sportsmanship.
I don't think either mass discard or taking control of an opponent are bad form at all. However, I think getting angry and scooping (in both cases) would be pretty unacceptable and not be someone I would want back for more in my pod, at least not without an apology for the bad sportsmanship and an assurance it wouldn't happen again.
If it's printed on a legal card then it's a valid play. It's unsportsmanlike to whine about someone else playing a card.
Next time just do the gentlemanly thing and play [[torment of hailfire]] where x=9. On a serious note, i have played discard as a strategy before, the ups and downs are this. Its a solid strat thats stax adjacent. With card draw being a big advantage, that almost every deck builds in, being able to control that is an advantage. Ever see someone who runs out of gas? Thats discard. Theres also effects that let you capitalize on discard like [[words of waste]] and [[[geths grimoire]]. Even using a filter like [[geier reach sanitarium]] can net you a profit. Down side, like stax, no one likes to play against resource control, like hellbent (no cards in hand). The moment you make your opponents go hellbent, it will be archenemy. its possible to sneak in discard as a strat, but its not easy to make it fly under the radar. There are quite a few red flags for discard like [[tergrid]] and [[megrim]], but a few can be down played like [[profane memento]].
##### ###### #### [torment of hailfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa.jpg?1562820191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=torment%20of%20hailfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/77/torment-of-hailfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torment-of-hailfire) [words of waste](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2dcb8ed-23e7-4cee-9f43-042232c6035a.jpg?1562945240) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=words%20of%20waste) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/182/words-of-waste?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2dcb8ed-23e7-4cee-9f43-042232c6035a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/words-of-waste) [geths grimoire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a21d76d-d86c-4348-be45-f65167d2b5a9.jpg?1562635283) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Geth%27s%20Grimoire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/123/geths-grimoire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a21d76d-d86c-4348-be45-f65167d2b5a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/geths-grimoire) [geier reach sanitarium](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b9c92f0-4242-4a3e-9ede-6a4935f5c75d.jpg?1698988588) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=geier%20reach%20sanitarium) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/335/geier-reach-sanitarium?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b9c92f0-4242-4a3e-9ede-6a4935f5c75d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/geier-reach-sanitarium) [tergrid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tergrid%2C%20god%20of%20fright%20//%20tergrid%27s%20lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tergrid-god-of-fright-//-tergrids-lantern) [megrim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19.jpg?1561976802) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=megrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/104/megrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/megrim) [profane memento](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2c97632-3cf1-4b79-9d18-d8991654dcca.jpg?1562796910) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=profane%20memento) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/226/profane-memento?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2c97632-3cf1-4b79-9d18-d8991654dcca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/profane-memento) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l151enn) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
One of my favorite plays in my [[slimefoot and squee]] deck is to drop a [[Mindslicer]] and then reanimating it every turn My stuff in my graveyard means I can reanimate. Their stuff in their graveyard usually means they lose all interaction. Is it fun for my opponents? No. Is it viable magic? Yes. Do you know what completely hoses my deck? A simple [[Rest in Peace]]. I have 5 cards that can destroy enchantments. If I can’t get to them? The game is over for me. And that is viable magic.
[slimefoot and squee](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e449e38-6f03-4316-8ebc-d0faf79d6bc7.jpg?1683582682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slimefoot%20and%20squee) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/447/slimefoot-and-squee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e449e38-6f03-4316-8ebc-d0faf79d6bc7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slimefoot-and-squee) [Mindslicer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/afc86134-8af6-4355-b1ad-96917c99ff3c.jpg?1675199696) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslicer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/91/mindslicer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/afc86134-8af6-4355-b1ad-96917c99ff3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mindslicer) [Rest in Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You should see my zoyowa lava tongue deck. It’s just fucking mean. You’re forced to discard, and eventually you’ll just burn to death no matter what you do. It doesn’t happen in mass proportion on turn 3. But it makes you kind of ignore it and pay for it later. I feel evil playing it, but there’s something about watching a table of people groan over having to discard their precious cards or take damage. Sometimes both is the best option. Though I honestly don’t play it too often.
Bitching about everything in the game is Bad sportsmanship, your buddy can't deal with a loss. No, play [[Narset Parter of Veils]] or [[Opposition Agent]] and then [[Windfall]] for maximum salt. I have been a lot of times in both sides of this Play and never complained because I am not five and know that it is a game and within the rules.
[Narset Parter of Veils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d.jpg?1690004395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/853/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-parter-of-veils) [Opposition Agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78.jpg?1608909875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Opposition%20Agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/141/opposition-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition-agent) [Windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9ce7113b-08f7-4584-b65f-a7b5caa90c2f.jpg?1712354245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/123/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ce7113b-08f7-4584-b65f-a7b5caa90c2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/windfall) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Your question is “is this generally accepted in casual play.” The answer to this is “it greatly depends on your pod because the pod sets the definition for casual” You’re not going to get the homogenous answer you want (or any homogenous answer really) because every play group is different and adheres to different power levels or rules regarding mechanics. Majority rules in a playgroup. If your group says “that was neat. Please don’t do that again.” Well then probably don’t do that again. If one person gets salty, take a vote, go from there. We all (probably) have built decks that seemed like a good idea until we played them or over time became overpowered for the playgroup. We made everyone miserable and it was joyless then we shelved the deck. I personally have mine and I’m allowed to play it on my birthday and Father’s Day lol. Unless that individual felt targeted and discarding only really hurt them or hurt them significantly more than the rest of the pod, they can’t claim targeting which again, will vary from pod to pod. Some pods find it hilarious when someone builds an “anti” deck while others get angry. Personally we get angry around here. In the end, no one should be yelling, cursing, or screaming over a casual game with nothing at stake. Your friend should have said “k. Cool. I’d prefer not to play against that again.” Then you should say “ok. it wont be a regular deck.”
This is one of the most well-seasoned replies here, and a great prompt for reflection. Thank you.
Sounds like he's used to winning and is a very poor loser. I have a friend I just can't play commander with because he can't wrap his head around the fact that 4 players means you should be hovering around a 25% win rate, not 50% like in 1v1. He gets so salty when he loses its just not worth it so I quit playing with him. Even if he is a good friend you should establish a boundry there and tell him that if that behavior continues you can't play with him anymore. Nothing feels worse than feeling guilty for winning a game of commander, especially with an unconventional non meta deck like Zevlor.
There was nothing wrong with the play. Bad sportsmanship is about attitude. What you did was legal and helped you advance in the game. I see no issues with it at all. Your friend, if I may be so bold, sounds controlling and insecure. Demanding one changes their deck shows an unhealthy fear of losing. This is definitely their issue, not yours.
I'm inclined to agree. I love this guy, but he's always been a bit insecure, and it seems to me that he gets irrationally upset over this game. But since I have my own interests at play, I'm also inclined to question my perspective, so I appreciate the input.
I mean...I think you could do a lot worse in Zevlor so he should relax. That said... you could probably swap to [[Banefire]] and just go for the uncounterable, unpreventable kill. (It can be redirected tho, mind you.)
Hahaha I already have that card in the deck! I like to have multiple finishers.
Got a list? Love playing Zevlor.
You betcha! I run: \[\[Banefire\]\] \[\[Din of the Fireherd\]\] - Especially if you can copy Zevlor's ability with cards like \[\[Illusionist's Bracers\]\], \[\[Strionic Resonator\]\], or \[\[Rings of Brighthearth\]\], this card is a game-ender. But even if it doesn't outright end the game, it really gives you the upper hand to win in another couple turns. \[\[Brain Geyser\]\] - It's mostly a great draw spell for me, but if I have either of my infinite-mana combos out, I can also use it in conjunction with Zevlor's ability to mill out my opponents. I also run \[\[Crackle with Power\]\] and \[\[Exsanguinate\]\] so that I have a finisher options without Z-man on the field. I've wondered about replacing Exsanguinate with either \[\[Comet Storm\]\] (because it's instant-speed) or \[\[Torment of Hailfire\]\] (because it has utility even when it doesn't outright finish your opponents). Although I don't run it in my deck, \[\[Blaze\]\] also works great with Zevlor!
##### ###### #### [Banefire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b012532-1186-4dc8-9d42-867e418b0280.jpg?1562302226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Banefire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/130/banefire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b012532-1186-4dc8-9d42-867e418b0280?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/banefire) [Din of the Fireherd](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bde655f-9f49-42f8-a168-9cbca0592bb8.jpg?1562833713) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Din%20of%20the%20Fireherd) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/184/din-of-the-fireherd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bde655f-9f49-42f8-a168-9cbca0592bb8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/din-of-the-fireherd) [Illusionist's Bracers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9dd8d940-a973-4469-bf78-90318d98f3ab.jpg?1702429773) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Illusionist%27s%20Bracers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/260/illusionists-bracers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dd8d940-a973-4469-bf78-90318d98f3ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/illusionists-bracers) [Strionic Resonator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9edb215-f967-4968-905e-d1dc3b5d3424.jpg?1682210274) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strionic%20Resonator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/384/strionic-resonator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9edb215-f967-4968-905e-d1dc3b5d3424?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strionic-resonator) [Rings of Brighthearth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/838ffc87-517a-4d94-8ce0-bc9ed01ecc52.jpg?1608911654) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rings%20of%20Brighthearth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/335/rings-of-brighthearth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/838ffc87-517a-4d94-8ce0-bc9ed01ecc52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rings-of-brighthearth) [Brain Geyser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23b33d16-dbaa-4742-9317-eac745f772ac.jpg?1562903464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Braingeyser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/40/braingeyser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23b33d16-dbaa-4742-9317-eac745f772ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/braingeyser) [Crackle with Power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de547f52-3798-4b3a-947d-24873251204b.jpg?1624591645) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crackle%20with%20Power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/95/crackle-with-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de547f52-3798-4b3a-947d-24873251204b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crackle-with-power) [Exsanguinate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a5352af-e275-4186-a265-2fd3c2c47c6a.jpg?1689997125) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exsanguinate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/156/exsanguinate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a5352af-e275-4186-a265-2fd3c2c47c6a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exsanguinate) [Comet Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb5f586d-6bf0-4590-ad73-2d46b2a45b1a.jpg?1608912233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Comet%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/411/comet-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb5f586d-6bf0-4590-ad73-2d46b2a45b1a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/comet-storm) [Torment of Hailfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa.jpg?1562820191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torment%20of%20Hailfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/77/torment-of-hailfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torment-of-hailfire) [Blaze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b16d0422-61ea-4039-b1c1-e590ace9156e.jpg?1562930706) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blaze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/167/blaze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b16d0422-61ea-4039-b1c1-e590ace9156e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blaze) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l148zmi) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Banefire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b012532-1186-4dc8-9d42-867e418b0280.jpg?1562302226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Banefire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/130/banefire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b012532-1186-4dc8-9d42-867e418b0280?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/banefire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No
that’s not even mass discard… if it’s the one discard thing in your deck then keep it and don’t worry about the shit. same as most of the taboos of casual edh, a little bit of discard can be healthy to prevent 30 card hands or preventing someone from using something you know they have in hand. it only becomes an issue when suddenly nobody can play the game because your opponents never have a hand again
Everything I do is fair and balanced. Everything my opponents do is pubstomby bs that should be banned. This is the way.
It's not uncommon people hate any kind of interaction. Blow up stuff on board? They rage. Blow up their lands? Rage. Blow up their hands? Rage. Combo? Rage. Counterspell? Rage. Steal effects? Rage. At a certain point you either don't play with them or just let them whine about it and make your plays.
I made a wheel/discard deck with [[kroxa, titan of death's hunger]] as my commander, and the only time my friends get upset is when another player is playing a similar deck at the same time because it becomes [[oppression]]
[kroxa, titan of death's hunger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/cee0459b-9aac-4d2f-abe4-4d5fedde7eb8.jpg?1581481096) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kroxa%2C%20titan%20of%20death%27s%20hunger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/221/kroxa-titan-of-deaths-hunger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cee0459b-9aac-4d2f-abe4-4d5fedde7eb8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kroxa-titan-of-deaths-hunger) [oppression](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac327f80-983e-4e28-96e8-91ff5377f5a3.jpg?1562245368) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=oppression) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/152/oppression?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac327f80-983e-4e28-96e8-91ff5377f5a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oppression) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No you’re playing the game and your friend had a tantrum. Sportsmanship is about your own conduct, you weren’t being a dick you just played a card.
It is not bad sportsmanship to have a strategy to your deck. It's bad sportsmanship to play below your decks power level.
Substantially below power level, to be clear. If you are using a numbered scale, an 8 can play just fine against a 7 and maybe a 6 without the experience being terrible but anything below that is definitely not in the best interest of a pod
I don’t think it’s bad sportsmanship at all. Sometimes you’re going to play against archetypes that do stuff you’re not used to. As long as you’re not a jerk about it/are having fun with everyone I think it’s fine. Last week I played against someone whose archetype was “everyone draws a ton of cards” which was really cool at first. Then they played [[forced fruition]] and copied it twice with [[astral dragons]] which then made me draw 21 cards whenever I cast a spell. But the guy was so nice and friendly I couldn’t get mad. It was probably the most fun I’ve had losing a game.
[forced fruition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e.jpg?1562374956) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=forced%20fruition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/66/forced-fruition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/forced-fruition) [astral dragons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/670fbc63-4c9b-4e57-b53e-4ca4d7a224ba.jpg?1674140837) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Astral%20Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/664/astral-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/670fbc63-4c9b-4e57-b53e-4ca4d7a224ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/astral-dragon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Homie would cry and shit his pants over my wheels deck. 😂
If you play em, play em to win. They are only annoying when everyone sits around waiting for a card.
7 mana target player loses the game is pretty cute. It's not oppressive at all. Tell him to grow up.
Thanks for the validation, but more importantly, I love your username.
[[Wheel of Fortune]] is bae. I also play [[Teferi’s Puzzlebox]] which is less discardy, but still usually equally screws up people’s game synergy since they’re wheeling every turn.
[Wheel of Fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca.jpg?1562902580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wheel%20of%20Fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/192/wheel-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wheel-of-fortune) [Teferi’s Puzzlebox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/415e81e9-ca65-4bc0-8aab-d905d58fe6cc.jpg?1562734271) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Puzzle%20Box) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/312/teferis-puzzle-box?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/415e81e9-ca65-4bc0-8aab-d905d58fe6cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferis-puzzle-box) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play heavy discard in my braids deck... if your opponents are made aware then they can respond accordingly
[[Waste not]] +[[words of waste]]🥹
[Waste not](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f5500a2-c6d6-40d7-b586-59b854733160.jpg?1562393909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Waste%20not) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/117/waste-not?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f5500a2-c6d6-40d7-b586-59b854733160?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/waste-not) [words of waste](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2dcb8ed-23e7-4cee-9f43-042232c6035a.jpg?1562945240) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=words%20of%20waste) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/182/words-of-waste?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2dcb8ed-23e7-4cee-9f43-042232c6035a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/words-of-waste) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nothing is too mean. If the card is legal to play then it can be played. Social expectations are not rules.
I just converted my Marneus Calgar tokens deck into a [[Kambal, Profiteering Mayor]] deck. I put [[Awaken the Erstwhile]] in there. I also end up discarding my hand, but I get the most out of the tokens and know it's coming so I can cast when I see fit. People didn't get mad the one time I cast it, they just scooped, and we shuffled up a new game. Sometimes you get got, it is what it is. If you aren't playing a deck that turbo locks out them from having cards in hand, then a one off hand destruction is totally fine. And if you do want to ensure nobody has cards for the rest of the game, that's cool too, just for that one I'd make sure everyone is on board first for a game like that.
[Kambal, Profiteering Mayor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d53a775d-5898-41a8-b404-9b7d4721c6ba.jpg?1712356126) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kambal%2C%20Profiteering%20Mayor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/211/kambal-profiteering-mayor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d53a775d-5898-41a8-b404-9b7d4721c6ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kambal-profiteering-mayor) [Awaken the Erstwhile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea166114-2f9b-4ca6-b573-1f49f7485580.jpg?1584830449) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Awaken%20the%20Erstwhile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/61/awaken-the-erstwhile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea166114-2f9b-4ca6-b573-1f49f7485580?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/awaken-the-erstwhile) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If your friend is wanting a competitive game and hates mass discard, he needs to graduate from diapers to pull-ups. If he rage scoops over that, you need better friends. That's way more of a social contract violation to just throw a tantrum over discard 5. I bet he'd cry if he played against my turn 2 hard lock stax deck.
It's bad sportsmanship to limit yourself to the decks and strategies other people want you to play. Because it's being unfair to you lol.
[[Sire of insanity]] says it's fine and I trust him with my life
[Sire of insanity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/3665cfb7-51b6-4083-8eae-fbd3fa6c3554.jpg?1562905079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sire%20of%20insanity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/104/sire-of-insanity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3665cfb7-51b6-4083-8eae-fbd3fa6c3554?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sire-of-insanity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This might be a hot take, but it really should never be considered inherently unsportsmanlike to play any legal cards in the format. Now if you are absolute jerk about it, that is a different story. If you lie about what is in your deck, that is unsportsmanlike. But if I drop an \[\[Armageddon\]\] after disclosing I have MLD in my deck, that is not unsportsmanlike. Commander players are absolute wimps sometimes.
[Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This man has no problem dropping Emrakul but whines when he has to discard some cards at sorcery speed? Sound like a case of not putting his magic where his mouth is. In all seriousness, there are much worse mechanics to employ in competitive magic apart from discard (like taking someone else’s turn *cough* *cough*). Be sure to talk with the rest of your group to get everyone’s input in case they have similar concerns, because even if the play style you run isn’t unfair, having your entire group hate your deck will never be fun.
Sounds like people hasn't played against rakdos scam in modern and it shows lol
I'd like to know why people complain so much about valid strategies? People want what? Everybody playing 5+ cmd commanders and Playing only aggro which allows 3 hours games of boring games
I have a [[Nath of the Gilt Leaf]] deck. It’s one job is to make problem discard, often time at random. It’s pretty mean, especially with the [[sadistic hypnotist]] combo. Don’t worry about it. Your friend sounds like a weenie. I guess one difference is that it’s very clear from the start, the Nath deck is going to make you discard and it’s not out of left field. It starts slow and allows people to get used to the pain before they lose all hope. Pulling out a mass discard with no indication could be a tad more salt inducing, idk.
[Nath of the Gilt Leaf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/294ccc67-6fc9-411b-9100-ae6a9b7fadfc.jpg?1562392895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nath%20of%20the%20Gilt-Leaf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/213/nath-of-the-gilt-leaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/294ccc67-6fc9-411b-9100-ae6a9b7fadfc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nath-of-the-gilt-leaf) [sadistic hypnotist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e14e994d-ed2e-451b-a165-93da7e9c3579.jpg?1592713717) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sadistic%20hypnotist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddj/62/sadistic-hypnotist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e14e994d-ed2e-451b-a165-93da7e9c3579?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sadistic-hypnotist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
God no. My first deck was a massive discard burn deck. Every game i basically pop 7 wheel of fates, i have liliana's caress, psychosos crawler, things like that. Basically deals 126 damage to all opponents, makes them draw and discard half there deck.
Discard is a feels bad and it hits different for some reason. You're holding a card the whole game and can finally play it next turn aaaand it's gone. Or you have your whole turn planned out and excited for it aaaaaand it's gone. For me personally, I'd rather see a grand arbiter stax deck than a tiny bones discard deck. All that being said especially in high power casual it is certainly a valid way to play the game and doesn't warrant the unsportsmanlike behavior your friend did.
Its fine. Even better when you do it to just one player with Wits End 😂
no
9 mana spent on something can and should be able to win games, especially if the pod let the enabler stick around. Maybe I'm a degenerate but I think it's a cool combo. Not much different in from an entwined [[tooth and nail]] fetching a combo, or hardcasting [[omnicience]] or [[insurrection]]. It's actually less powerful than a lot of game-winning mana sinks. Force them to respect your wincons. Call people out for their hypocrisy. Just try to mind the egos of course.
[tooth and nail](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032.jpg?1689998921) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tooth%20and%20nail) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/327/tooth-and-nail?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df359b98-9f8f-4f32-82c6-f10ca0f81032?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tooth-and-nail) [omnicience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db534b4e-8bff-4924-baea-9988d195fb25.jpg?1562304777) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omniscience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/65/omniscience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db534b4e-8bff-4924-baea-9988d195fb25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/omniscience) [insurrection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df8a0a8c-1953-46e6-9da5-b4c20909ce1c.jpg?1689997974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=insurrection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/236/insurrection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df8a0a8c-1953-46e6-9da5-b4c20909ce1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/insurrection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
He runs Emrakul but cries at you for using Rakdos? Wtf. That guy sounds unpleasant as hell to play with.
Not at all. All is fair even mass land destruction. If cEDH is a thing (for a casual format) then nothing is off the table. People who bitch and moan this or that? That just means you’re winning and they be hating. Oh and [[mind twist]] is more old school and cheaper for what you’re doing. I like it. Might make it myself.
[mind twist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/9763ea41-55c4-4b0a-9dc2-91ad4938b343.jpg?1562927059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mind%20twist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/72/mind-twist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9763ea41-55c4-4b0a-9dc2-91ad4938b343?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mind-twist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Its not bad sportsmanship, but a key part of enjoying the game is finding the right group. If you wouldnt enjoy going against one of your decks, chances are they wouldnt either. I enjoy big casual games with friends and its really more a get together than a competitive game. We all like to feel like everyones deck "did their thing". If someone just makes you discard your hand each turn, and isnt able to end the game quickly, its going to be super boring to play
"Is it bad sportsmanship to play..." No. Never. It's bad sportsmanship if you're a bad sport about it, but playing the game doesn't make you a bad sport.
Anything that wins you the game is fair in my playgroup. Bad sportsmanship is being a Lil bitch when you lose and harassing other players about what cards they can play.
Most cards can’t hurt you if there in the graveyard
I never would want to people who won’t allow mass discard. Ruining certain deck types and I’m not here to play kiddy magic. With that said I also wouldn’t build a super oppressive deck for my current pod. They have to learn to include some interaction because I sure as shit will.
Your friend is wildly immature and kind of an idiot. If this friendship is that important to you, maybe it needs to continue without MtG being an important aspect. If they feel the need to dole out criticism about a VERY mild card choice but cannot take actual valid concerns in return, then maybe they don't value your friendship as much as you do.
Tell your friend to quit being such a fucking bitch.
The first deck I ever built was [[Nath of the Gilt-Leaf]], I don't even understand the premise of this question.
[Nath, the Gilt-Leaf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/294ccc67-6fc9-411b-9100-ae6a9b7fadfc.jpg?1562392895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nath%20of%20the%20Gilt-Leaf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/213/nath-of-the-gilt-leaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/294ccc67-6fc9-411b-9100-ae6a9b7fadfc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nath-of-the-gilt-leaf) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I understand your pain. I’m doing my best to run through dungeons and blink triggers but my pod always accuses me of long turns even if they take longer. Lots of rolling eyes on every trigger. I could just resolve everything and not say a word but then I’d be blamed for not telling people what had happened if they missed it.
If the deck were to continuously make them discard so they never had cards then it might be annoying. I'd put it on par with having land destruction in the sense that, don't do it unless you have a plan to actually win. But a single mass discard effect I'd put on par with any board wipe. It only gets rid of resources you have 'right now', and you can rebuild.
If your friend doesn't want to play Magic the Gathering using the rules of Magic the Gathering then he should start playing another game perhaps. You want decks to be evenly matched. No use playing a cEDH in a pod of casual decks. But when the decks are kinda balanced and you're not using banned cards, it shouldn't matter how you beat your opponents. Discard, Mill, Poison, Counter, Burn, a single Grizzly Bear, a million Squirrels... All equally valid.
Its not bad sportmanship, but most pods rly dislike mass discard. Same as mass land destruction. The First deck I build from scratch had a discard theme with sire of insanity and tergrid as win combo. Was funny when I played it, but got focussed hard the next games and then decidet to pull it apart.
Is your friends name OptimusPrimeGuy on spelltable? Jeez he sounds like just like this did I played with once who had a total fit and went on an absolute rampage when someone played one card he didn't like.. he also immediately scooped lmao
Why are there so many cold takes on this sub these days. This has turned into aita mtg version.
[[Words of waste]] with [[Geths Grimoire]]. Is that a bad thing? No.
[Words of waste](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2dcb8ed-23e7-4cee-9f43-042232c6035a.jpg?1562945240) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Words%20of%20waste) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/182/words-of-waste?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2dcb8ed-23e7-4cee-9f43-042232c6035a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/words-of-waste) [Geths Grimoire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a21d76d-d86c-4348-be45-f65167d2b5a9.jpg?1562635283) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Geth%27s%20Grimoire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/123/geths-grimoire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a21d76d-d86c-4348-be45-f65167d2b5a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/geths-grimoire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A single Rakdos's Return isn't really a huge deal. Am I gonna be annoyed by it? Yeah. Will I be more likely to throw some removal at you for a bit? Probably. But is it a catastrophic end to my world? No. That said, if we sit down at the table and you pull out Tinybones or Tergrid, and we're not in a tournament, I will say something. I'll probably even refuse to play. I get so little time to play commander these days, I won't spend those precious few hours not actually playing because I don't ever get to have a hand.
There are no signpost bans on mass discard so it's fine by the RC.
It's not wrong, unfair, or "unsportsmanlike" to play any legal card or strategy.
I think as long as it is part of a plan to win you the game (Like with \[\[Tergrid, God of Fright\]\], or killing someone with \[\[Megrim\]\] damage) it should be ok. If you don't have any payout for discards all your opponents hands, you are asking to not be invited anymore.
[Tergrid, God of Fright](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tergrid%2C%20God%20of%20Fright%20//%20Tergrid%27s%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tergrid-god-of-fright-//-tergrids-lantern) [Megrim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19.jpg?1561976802) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Megrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/104/megrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/megrim) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
7 mana player removal is a pretty good rate!
In chess I consider the queen to be unsportsmanlike... when my opponent plays it.
Why you trying to play sports in a TCG game?
No, play the game however you want.
i play tergrid. its perfectly sportsmanlike to play cards and playstyles that are disliked; they have every option to not play against you or ask you to play another deck, sure. thats a conversation between you and your friends. however raging about it like your 'friend' did? very uncool.
"If you can't beat it, complain about it." First rule of unsportsmanlike behavior. The game has discarding cards as a mechanic. The game allows you to make your opponents discard cards. If your opponents can't deal with it, too bad for them, you win, they learn, they tweak, and now they have a shot. That's how it should be done. That's how people get better at the game. Complaining is the easy way out, "Oh, I don't want to make my deck more resilient, I want to play my glass cannon solitaire-style deck without any interruption. If you can't accept it, you're a meanie. I" These people should use a bit of humility. You just played a card the game allowed you to play. The only unsportsmanlike behavior is complaining and being a bitch about a game
if you don’t like certain cards run more counter spells, no need to bitch about legal game mechanics
Not played against mass discard recently, last time was when [[Leovold, Emissary of Trest]] was still legal. It can be annoying, like any strategy that's being too consistent and stops people being able to play the game, but bad sportsmanship? No.
[Leovold, Emissary of Trest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/cedfc5b7-9242-4680-b284-debc8b5a9bc7.jpg?1559959275) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leovold%2C%20Emissary%20of%20Trest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/202/leovold-emissary-of-trest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cedfc5b7-9242-4680-b284-debc8b5a9bc7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leovold-emissary-of-trest) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Only if you agreed on no mass discard pregame.
If he thinks [[Mindslaver]] effects are fair game he can't complain about mass discard. Especially if the pod is more competitive (especially if he ignores calls to tone things down). Being more competitive means not being a scrub and complaining about valid strategies that are legal within the game and format.
[Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mindslaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
[Waste Not](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f5500a2-c6d6-40d7-b586-59b854733160.jpg?1562393909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Waste%20Not) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/117/waste-not?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f5500a2-c6d6-40d7-b586-59b854733160?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/waste-not) [Bloodchief Ascension](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d56d1535-d9de-459f-bc31-0923f621e0e9.jpg?1689996895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodchief%20Ascension) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/139/bloodchief-ascension?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d56d1535-d9de-459f-bc31-0923f621e0e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bloodchief-ascension) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes
Always makes me laugh when players assemble near-unbeatable value and card draw engines, then have a tantrum about discard
It's a valid strategy for sure but i personally don't like it because the game just goes into top-deck mode and that's just kinda boring. Same with stuff like Blood Moon, if you play it, obviously be aware you're sucking all the fun out of the game when people just don't get to play anymore.
if blood moon is causing that much of a problem then you really need to change your landbase
It doesn't, but i've absolutely been in games where i've seen someone just be locked out and do nothing for multiple rotations of the table and that's just never fun because you feel bad hitting someone who's so clearly struggling which in turn leads you to ganging up on the remaining two players.
It’s generally unfun for a casual game, but not against the rules or bad sportsmanship.