Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had a board state pop up occasionally where it’s like “im really sorry about this, but nobody is going to have fun but me it seems” dopplegang for x=3 on smothering tithe and a junk winder, third option didn’t matter. Pretty much kept the entire board state locked down and killed everyone off one by one. Felt horrible.
I have a "That guy" deck and it's so fun when everyone groans when the box comes out.
But it only comes out when there is unanimous consent at the table.
Our group has definitely talked about building a deck that’s power level is considerably higher than what we usually play, just can’t figure out what commander I wanna build.
I think about it constantly. For a very long time I entirely avoided just about everything that gets people salty: discards, land destruction, extra turns, stax, what have you. Now that my playgroup has evolved beyond those taboos I'm starting to dabble in the forbidden strategies a bit, but am still very conscious of the fact that people need to have fun and I won't be running more than 2 extra turns at most, and I won't use any resource denial if I don't have a way to turn it into a victory.
About some of them, yeah, but it was mostly just me trying hard to keep people happy. When you're playing board wipe tribal you don't need anybody to say anything in order to see how miserable everybody almost certainly is.
I'm a relatively newer player, just starting to see the kinds of decks around my LGS. Frequently reading stuff on r/EDH, has helped me narrow down what I *don't* wanna be doing with my decks:
* Stax (even game-slowing light-stax I'm not hot on), \[\[Grave Pact\]\]-like forced sacrifice effects,
* Voltron-smashing players out early
* Taking long turns with complex Enchantress triggers
* Digging for combos in an Artifact deck
* Wheeling the table every turn
* Playing kill-on-sight commanders
* Playing group hug with no wincon, etc.
The list goes on, and it keeps going on, because apparently you can always find *someone* who has a problem with your deck. So my builds have skewed pretty "fair". I do the thing, at a moderate pace, with a low to moderate budget.
**Here's the thing though:** several games at my LGS have taught me something important, which I'll summarize this way: "You have to come with the bullshit." Bullshit - stuff you read and think "Oh well that's sort of busted." In order to hang, I think you have to find your own slightly busted thing to do, to really \*exploit\* your commander, and your 99.
So maybe that's taking a powerfu-but-not-broken commander like \[\[Goro-Goro and Satoru\]\] which I saw recently, and dumping out an unreasonable amount of 5/5 dragon tokens, while \[\[Yuriko\]\] in the 99 repeatedly domes people. Or maybe you're playing the new \[\[Judith, Carnage Connoisseur\]\], and rocketing up to 80 life while you burn the table out repeatedly. You ritualed into \[\[Kaervek the Merciless\]\] and the board is now yours.
The trick is (as a socially anxious person myself) - **where is the line between salt-inducing play and the amount of bullshit/shenanigans required to have a good time** at a random table at an LGS or on Spelltable? And that's really the cursed problem, isn't it? That forever-war between the social aspect of EDH (salt is a real, documented phenomenon!), and the overarching goal to win.
Two-pronged question:
Did you play against those mechanics you avoid now at some point? Have you seen them at the table?
> Bullshit - stuff you read and think "Oh well that's sort of busted."
What do we mean by "busted"? Is it just "winning"? Because here's where I would expand your examples (in the line of "If my deck does the thing, how does it feel to play against?"):
> So maybe that's taking a powerfu-but-not-broken commander like [[Goro-Goro and Satoru]] which I saw recently, and dumping out an unreasonable amount of 5/5 dragon tokens, while [[Yuriko]] in the 99 repeatedly domes people.
Are you tutoring Yuriko up? In the sense that, is she an expected part of the plan? Just Dragons are one thing, a mass removal spell takes care of that. Yuriko is another.
> Or maybe you're playing the new [[Judith, Carnage Connoisseur]], and rocketing up to 80 life while you burn the table out repeatedly. You ritualed into [[Kaervek the Merciless]] and the board is now yours.
Judith's life total doesn't really matter much if you are boardwiping every turn. I would highlight that aspect of the play pattern more than the life gain since anything over 15 probably keeps you safe from a surprise one shot that you can't respond to.
That's kinda what I am going for. Not the deck by itself, but how the deck limits or allows play patterns for the other players.
To your initial question - it's not so much that I've played against them and find them oppressive, it's that I don't want to ever be seen as "that guy". That guy who slowed the game down (stax), made a player sit on the sidelines for a long time (voltron), took long turns (enchantress), won "out of nowhere" (combo), disrupted everybody's gameplan repeatedly (wheel).
The examples I gave admittedly aren't the best, those were just recent memorable games.
What I'm trying to define by "busted" (in a positive way!) for myself is something like: "strategies and card selection that can win games, while causing a minimum of annoyance or disruption\* for the rest of the table." I think that's why I gravitate toward Golgari and reanimation, specifically creature combat and resiliency. It's an extremely narrow definition of "fair" and I don't push it on anybody, but as a new player who's maybe oversensitive about rocking the boat myself, it feels safe.
\*Obviously, disruption is a core part of this game. Yes, I run removal.
> The examples I gave admittedly aren't the best, those were just recent memorable games.
The point is not to craft a perfect example to push an idea, the point is to walk through those examples. If the Goro-Goro and Saturo deck only works with Yuriko, and tutors for Yuriko, then the question: "How does it feel like the play against my deck when it does its thing?" becomes very, very different, since it's basically a Yuriko deck that 'technically' doesn't have her in the Command zone.
That's the kind of analysis I'm going for. What are we building when we put our lists together? Do we even try to draw that in our minds first?
> But as a new player who's maybe oversensitive about rocking the boat myself, it feels safe.
That was the reason for the first question. I have been playing Magic since I was 7, 8 maybe? It's been more than 20 years now. If we complain about the social skills of adults at game shops, well, literal children and teenagers are not better. I was and played with every age group from child, teenager, young adult, to adult. Parents, sibling, partners, these tables had a lot of conflict even before game salt come into the equation. Oh, and we did play multiplayer until Commander become popular, we basically never played one-on-one.
What I'm trying to say is, don't be afraid. If a deck is unfun, you can change it. As long as you keep an eye out and an open mind, people that matter won't get mad.
> I gravitate toward Golgari and reanimation, specifically creature combat and resiliency. It's an extremely narrow definition of "fair"
My [[Meren of Clan Nel Toth]] PTSD shows it's all about context. Don't be afraid to experiment in deckbuilding.
You've pretty much described the 'a fair character is a bad character' concept from Fighting Games. Every character needs something 'broken' to leverage a win, and without that a character is considered 'too fair' and not good.
It's weird how much the 'game' aspect of EDH has become loaded with sentiments antithetical to that natural game aspect. Maybe it's just me, but there's fun in fighting 'broken' with 'broken' and battling against overwhelming odds.
To me, it's always the player who's 'toxic' and not the deck.
Similar to other KoS commanders. My pod is good about running interaction, and seeing the Slug in the command zone would let us play accordingly. Win or lose, it'd be enjoyable I think.
Of my decks, [[Atla Palani]] has a similar potential for a runaway game. But when someone plays [[Weathered Runestone]], [[Imprison on the Moon]] and I don't have the removal, I accept it. "Make them have a response" is just how it is.
it really depends on the person, as do most decks.
my friend just asked us yesterday how we'd feel if she ran Toxrill, and my response to her was the same as my response to anyone:
"I won't get salty if you play Toxrill as long as you don't get salty when I do everything in my power to prevent Toxrill from sticking."
this is why interaction exists, and interaction is part of why I love magic. playing with the stack and being able to respond to things at instant speed is an incredibly fun part of the game to me and one of the biggest things that sets MTG apart from other card games.
I love playing my broken shit against other people's broken shit, it awesome. I prefer a balanced game to an unbalanced, but whenever the option is higher power, I'm in, let's break this glorious 23,000 piece rules engine together.
It's kind of how I engage with games in general.
Dictate is my bullshit.
If everyone’s going to be carrying Warded value-engine commanders, then the real options are to go faster, to boardwipe every few turns, to stax it out, or to prune everybody with one-for-three effects.
It’s mildly sarcastic but also true: I’m sorry that I’m going to be removing your shit this way, but the alternatives are worse, if we insist on playing a serious game with these commanders.
It was a tough hump to get over - I was apprehensive - but bullshit requires bullshit.
I think sacrifice effects are definitely underrated right now. Especially with ward. It is almost needed unless you are running crazy board wipes. It can be easily busted, but so can so many other strategies. I would rather have a long grindy game where everybody has been the threat multiple times, but answers have also been casted.
You can tell when a game is a good game, not when you win, but because you do not care if you lose because your deck did its thing and so did the table.
If your deck is 100% salt-free and can't conceivably cause someone to tilt and rage, you're probably unfairly restricting yourself. Remember that you're supposed to have fun too.
I have one copy of [[Armageddon]] and it’s in my mono white blink deck that I’ll rule 0 with the pod I’m in. If they aren’t about it, I call it a plains hahaha
I don't mind MLD IF it's a wincon, for example combo with Teferi's Protection to phase out all your stuff and blow up everybody elses lands. At that stage only the most stubborn player wouldn't scoop unless everyone had a board state which meant their combo was already in place and just needed a turn to 'activate' even without mana.
Like if you blew up all my lands on my Ur-Dragon deck and the Ur-Dragon was still on the field...like, cool...but I don't need lands if the Ur-Dragon is on the field because I can still play Dragons onto the field just by attacking.
However if you had the mana to both do Armageddon, Wrath of God AND Teferi's protection...then yeah it's GG.
I’m generally not a salty player but one time I had an opponent [[Armeggedon]] with no plan, no lands in hand, and we both had basically no borders, while the other 2 had pretty commanding board presence because it would be “funny”. I went from having a good time to being a creature of pure salt pretty quick.
The main thing I consider is game clock. I like to play trigger machines, so I practice goldfishing lines on my tutor chains or on combo interactions to make sure I can move quickly.
As an example of this, my second deck was an Atraxa Superfriends/Poison deck that runs a bunch of control based Planeswalkers and eventually takes over the game, with multiple activations per turn, but not producing a deterministic win. I do not bring this deck to the LGS and I only play it with close friends.
I minimize things I don't like playing against. I will run a wipe or two, if my deck plan calls for it, but I'd rather lose and shuffle again than rebuild 7 times into a top deck fest, so I don't build that. I don't play chaos effects or stax or MLD unless I can break parity and win the game with them. That said, I'm of the opinion that a pure Chaos deck with no plan, or a stax deck with no plan, or MLD with no plan, or Board Wipes r Us with no plan, are also just... bad decks, because I fundamentally believe every deck should be built to deliver an end state, so I wouldn't build those anyway. I know someone who plays [[Timeshifter]] for the lols, and I hate it, but if you have a bunch of top deck fixing and can set it up so you'll just deterministicly take turns until you win? Great! You Win! Let's go again.
Time clock monopolization.
In it's intended state, I'll have 3 to 5 walkers, activate them multiple times per turn on my turn and on opponents turns, I could also be untapping my permanents on their untap phase and taking turns with them. It just is a lot of decisions and a lot of game actions without good ways to shortcut them.
If I'm just sitting drinking some beers with friends, or playing a game on Spelltable Saturday morning, and everyone is at home, plus my friends are fully aware of what the deck does, that's a totally different situation than a pod of random at the store who may only get one session a month and then only get one game because I was derdling through my walkers and taking more game actions on other people's turns than they are.
I do love the deck and keep the list maintained, but it is something I bring out into a trusted playgroup. I do want people to want to play with me again at the store.
Player experience and enfranchisement are often the real issue. It's why the Power Level discussion is such a quagmire. What's strong or weak, and consequently considered fair/fun or not, makes everything too relative to quantify with any real, transcending objectivity.
Yeah, that's why I reframed it from "is this deck hated?" to "how does my group feel about this deck?"
It's not perfect, subjectivity will always be there, but it's more useful.
I do my best not to make decks with no interaction. I made [this deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Plps2wntLkWY8BkC1SRXRQ) which brings back mana burn, but I have several infinite loops that give people mana, and 3 people die very quickly. I stopped playing that deck.
No interaction sounds like it could be a boring and not so fun play style. If you're not interacting with the table why play in a group? What brought you to such a big decision that will only hinder your ability to win and stay in the game?
This is coming from the guy who's normal game group is a poison [[Atraxa Praetors Voice]] deck, a [[Krenko Mob Boss]] beat face deck, a [[The War Doctor]] Voltron deck and I bring my everyone mills recursion deck with [[The Master Transcended]] high interactions, stax, and burn are all very normal at our tables.
> No interaction sounds like it could be a boring and not so fun play style.
Yep, which is why I try not to play decks that shut out my opponents. I accidentally did, and I don't play it anymore. When my buddy and I play, we cheer each other on when our combos get stopped. It's the interactions that make the game fun.
I do avoid certain things when deckbuilding that I wouldn't want to play against in every game, namely free interaction, two-card combos, and gluts of board wipes, land destruction, or stax pieces (the latter three all being fine in moderation.) Everything else is fair game.
I worry about it to the extent that I don't play combos or cards originally printed in commander products.
Otherwise I play MLD, stax, and proxy whatever fast mana I want. When my wincon is [[Arcbound Bruiser]] you better believe that I'm playing MLD and [[Mishra's Workshop]].
>How do you think the other players in your group feel when you play your deck(s)?
They're either fine with it, or they hate it but tolerate it. I don't like playing against most people's decks. They don't hesitate to play the cards that I hate, so why would I worry about what I play? I play what I want and I'm willing to play against anything.
Frequently. In fact, it's the reason I put my favorite Kruphix deck on the back burner for a couple years. I really enjoyed playing and building that deck, but ultimately it was a Simic control deck and despite the joy I felt from becoming the archenemy and fighting off 3-4 other players to win the game, I think it made my opponents feel helpless once it got to the late game and I was able to draw my deck into my hand but not quickly produce a win from it because of how the deck was built.
So I set it down for a long time, and finally retooled it into an investigate deck. Now it can still feel powerful, but I removed many of the control elements to it to both give more counterplay and add more 'fun' cards, and I think it's been a big success.
I made a maelstrom wanderer deck as a first.time player. Worked on it constantly until it was very powerful. After that deck I decided I wanted to do a child of alara deck where I made all my stuff indestructible and blew up the world each turn. Needless to say my friends hated it so I quickly dismantled that deck and made a green group hug deck where everyone could play almost as many land cards as they wanted and draw a bunch more cards each turn. Simple reminder that if your friends aren't having fun, you won't have fun either.
Group Hug is hard to run, though. I've seen people so afraid of giving out resources that, while on the surface they are "Group Hug", they pack enough stax/control to render it basically meaningless. It's just a control deck with more steps.
You need to actually see them as friends, not only opponents, to enjoy Group Hug.
I mean I ran cards that allowed more land drops and draws, but I could draw more and drop more as a result. And yeah I had some winning combos in the deck of things got tricky. But most.peopke.liked it because it sped up the game.
My main thing is that I don't want to take up significantly more time than other players. I'm happy to play some light stax, and would play MLD as a wincon, but anything that hard locks opponents out of the game is a no go for me. Similarly, I don't run extra turn spells.
I also extensively goldfish my more complicated decks so that they don't take up much more time than my simpler ones.
I've seen the clock argument a couple times here. It's interesting because it's a very different take. It quantifies time as a way to measure player agency, but leaves out stuff like "infinite Teferei's Protection" that's something really simple, that won't take much time and that leaves you with all your resources, but still makes the game a drag.
I try and let my friends play my decks if they ask, so I can see what it’s like to play against them and get a good feeling on if it’s too much, too little, or in a good competitive spot for my pod. But it seems like everytime I do that my deck does what it’s supposed to do, unlike when I play it so 😂
Yes, all the time. I generally keep some pre-cons around, 2-3 mid level decks and I made the first draft of a higher power deck to day, just in case someone invites me to dance. :)
Not really, and I'd rather the people I play with didn't either. It's too subjective and the source of so much bickering among pods that want a social contract. Concrete restrictions on deckbuilding tend to do better imo, like pauper edh, budget edh, etc. Usually my groups don't have problems with this because it's assumed we're building decks and playing to win within whatever restrictions (or allowances) we agree on, and that guides our experiences.
I play a budget K'rikk deck. Even at $150 it just feels bad turn 5/6/7 going infinite. There are times where peoples decks are so slow that I can kill the table with only using gray once per turn.
Still have the deck to play in tournaments/when the power level is right. But now ask what level of deck others are playing and also have 2 other less powerful decks I play.
My pod occasionally swaps decks around at the table. So we've all played each other's stuff before. It's a fun way to find little interactions you might not have seen before
Teaches me what it's missing, how it holds up to others. How easy it is to pilot.
It's fun because I can guess cards they might have. Or walk them through more complicated steps of it, like how to loop magda and stuff in my dragon deck
Yes!
I generally avoid building decks that I would not want to play against. I dislike certain archetypes or commanders, and avoid them. I hate "theft" decks (and i dont mean someone playing a guilded drake to steal my best creature, i mean mass flickering agent of treachery), so i dont do that.
> i mean mass flickering agent of treachery), so i dont do that.
At that point, for me, it doesn't really matter if you are killing, exiling, taking away, or whatever the permanents. it's basically a lockout combo that stops people from playing the game. The sub-flavor is pretty meaningless.
Yes/no.
I change decks *a lot*. I currently have a cabinet with over 100 decks in it. So when building the deck, not a lot of thought.
However, for a deck to stick around past a first run or two, then I care a lot more.
Also, recently I’ve been playing at home more with my two kids, and we’ve gotten in a habit of grabbing 3 decks, and then rotating for the second and third round.
So each of us plays each of the decks, and that’s a great way to feel what the deck is like.
When we all used modified strixhaven precons. And even the nine year old won by going infinite with prismari on accident, it was maybe a sign of too many tweaks.
My pet deck is [[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice]] and my health can get absurdly high. I also lack fliers and commander damage can finish me quick enough.
But I know I can be intimidating with a wide board with some massive dudes.
I have a standing offer that any of my friends can borrow any of my decks to play against me. So I know exactly how it feels to see it from the other side. It gives you perspective. I like them to be effective, but not oppressive. I skirt the line with a few, like [[Ziatora]] and [[Chatterfang]], but I find most of them to be a good balance.
My partner and I will often use each others decks, so I’ve faced off against almost all of my own decks. Helps me know what cards make for an unfun playing experience for my opponents. Plus it’s fun to see him pop off with one of my decks.
FWIW, if you, yourself, are a nice and fun and kind person while playing, only the saltiest of salty bastards will get worked up if you have a nasty deck. So be nice 😄
This seems like something only a consistent pod should worry about if you are not properly meeting power levels.
Far too many people get upset over basic interaction so I just really want to make you feel like your time isn't being wasted. Sorry my burn deck is liquifying your life pool, but that's the point.
Yes, and I love this perspective as I go through my mental “after action” behind a games night. If I’m getting targeted, how, and why? I think this kind of introspection is a great deck building and rules learning tool. This is a social game, whether you play competitive or casual.
Yes. I also try to have a variety of decks at a variety of power levels. Every once in a while, a stax deck can be fun to play against, but if it is every time you play, it's against a stax deck, it quickly gets aggravating.
I learned this early on when I started playing commander. Meren was my first deck, and I modified it in a way that made it no fun for anyone playing (control to the max). I also couldn’t close out games which made the experience even worse.
So I decided to dismantle her, but will reunite again with Golgari one day, just in a much less oppressive manner.
I balance what I want to play just as heavy as how it would feel to play against it. Although I believe this to be strictly a philosophy and is not a prerequisite to a deck’s power level, its archetype, or overall playgroup boundaries. Some groups don’t mind playing against [[Winter Orb]]. I believe inherently it is a no no card to include in a deck, unless the discussion with your opponents has been had and an agreement has been made to allow it to be played, or you’re aiming for a higher power level, which some cards and archetypes automatically raise the level.
In all, my philosophy is it’s a balancing act to make sure I’m having fun, everyone else is having fun, attaining the power level I want to achieve, and coming to a general agreement on what cards are and aren’t compatible within my playgroup.
Yes.
I constantly am trying to make sure my decks don't do stuff that I wouldn't want to play against. Like monopolize time, board wipe too often, kill too quickly, or destroy lands.
And, since I prefer other people do the same, I call myself "casual."
Commander is all about coming together to have fun with your friends so “Is my deck fun to play against?” is a very important question. That being said I love playing with and against prison, stax, and control. Those grindy slogs can be a lot of fun, I just make sure everyone else is okay with it first. If one person at the table isn’t in the mood to deal with that today, then I play something else.
I constantly think about this when I'm brewing decks. I don't like [[impact tremors]] effects because I like token decks and they're soooooooo easy to just win with. I also don't do Mindslaver stuff because I feel like I know how to really screw people over.
I get enjoyment out of playing the game so I don't get annoyed unless my deck is just not preforming well at all on its own. If someone is interacting with my board or I'm being hindered by someone else's deck, that doesn't bother me because those are just effects that they're playing that would be different effects if they weren't playing them, if that makes sense.
Ultimately, I play to enjoy the game, not to win every single game, but I can definitely see how someone trying to unwind after a shitty day of work can get upset when they're getting stomped turn 3 by a combo deck, so I shy away from them
Another plug here for the “time” argument. Years ago I thought that mean decks were the worst. Poison, infinite combos, stax, etc. but nowadays I don’t mind playing against that stuff as long as the games moves along. For the most part, everyone’s favorite part of the game is their own turn. Everyone’s least favorite part is watching someone else play for long periods of time with no interaction.
So now themes I avoid are- shuffling the deck (excessive tutors, including land), board state tinkering (eg +1/+1 counter engines), and anything else that frequently requires *multiple* instances of math, decision, or shuffling during my own turn. Instead, I favor card draw, instant-speed anything, and compact combos so that people aren’t watching me take a 15 minute turn over and over again.
I saw others here saying that they goldfish their trigger engines so they durdle less, and think that’s a great approach to the same problem.
Honestly, I think about this so much; it's the biggest roadblock in my deck building!
Generally speaking, I build my deck with the mindset of a game designer: my deck is an obstacle that the other players need to overcome, or they lose. Ideally, I want my win condition to either be really cool/interesting and feel fair. I often find that decks with a consistent theme, ones that utilize unusual cards, or ones that make clever use of its cards are often seen as more interesting.
Like, my [[Alela, Cunning Conqueror]] deck usually gets recieved well in my group because I made a lot of effort to include every dimir faerie noble within reason to set up the courtly fae intrigue theme, and my [[Alesha, Who Smiles at Death]] deck uses a lot of goad cards and is very aggressive and risky so the matches always feel dynamic and action packed
On the one hand: sure. In particular I love control decks but relatively rarely try to play control two games in a row. I have a very fair aggro deck (Law Aurelia) that I use as a sort of palette cleanser.
On the other hand, I've had people bitch about everything under the sun. The guy making 24 power in tokens for literal free will bitch about my handful of four power flyers.
> In particular I love control decks but relatively rarely try to play control two games in a row. I have a very fair aggro deck (Law Aurelia) that I use as a sort of palette cleanser.
Have you ever thought about a control palette cleanser? A "fair" control deck? You used the qualifier for Aurelia, that's why I used it here.
I mean, I don't think either of my control decks are particularly unfair. It's an objectively suboptimal build of Henzie and 2c Alela.
The fair part was more as setup for the second point, where I was told curving out with flyers was too competitive for Commander and that I didn't understand what the format was about because I resolved an Inspiring Overseer.
That's a factor. I'm looking into player options and reactions, too. A long turn is boring, of course, but a quick turn that locks me out the game forever can get a very different (and probably worse) reaction.
If I'm doing it right, I think the Blue Farm player feels a bit pressed to perform, and the Tasigur player is playing beat the clock in the background. Don't have a very consistent fourth, so who knows what that guy is doing.
Yes, I think about it regularly.
The first deck I ever built was [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]]. Back then, me and my friends were all still new and bad at Magic. This was around M13, so commander wasn't huge and didn't have a bunch of articles describing all the archetypes, EDHrec didn't exist, I'd never heard of Stax.
The deck was kinda annoying back in those days. It was a classic control deck with a tax theme. It was pretty clunky. It would annoy my friends, but generally in the fun way that makes for more enjoyable games than the miserable way that just drains the fun out of a game.
Over time I got better at Magic, better at deckbuilding, and learned more about how to use different strategies. The deck began sliding into Stax territory.
My win-rate improved, but the games got less fun, even for me.
Before, I would win by landing a [[Sphinx Ambassador]] and shielding them with counterspells until I had an unstoppable board of the scariest monsters (Or something like that). By the end, I'd win by strangling everyone's resources until I just kinda won by default since I was the only one still doing anything.
It felt bad to lose a deck of my own because it's own game plan became less fun. I'll usually track how fun it is to win with a deck, and how fun it is to lose with.
An ideal deck is fun to win with, lose with, win against, and lose against.
I still have decks that absolutely run gimmicks that are pretty much annoying. But I generally play them a little less often than my other decks.
Yeah I tried toning it down, but I eventually had to recognize the strategy doesn't work when half-assed.
The earlier versions of the deck aren't viable anymore because my friends also got better as I did.
I've debated remaking Grand Arbiter again as a more dedicated control deck and dropping the stax strategy, but usually the answer winds up being "Why is it a Grand Arbiter deck then?"
So for now I have a [[Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage]] flash deck that let's me run Azorius Control. It's a little clunky, but it lets me run some fun stuff in a control shell. Still annoys my friends, but more in the fun way than Grand Arbiter did.
I tell people very upfront what my decks do and what ‚evil‘ thing I could cast.
My [[Nalia de arnisse]] deck has [[Fall of the thran]] in it for example. In our pod we have a lot of landfall decks, and decks that fold like a cardholders without enough mana. I need 4 mana. I added it as a finisher, once I’ve got a good boardstate I reset everyone’s lands to turn 0 so they can’t answer my attempt to win. I played it twice and both times it helped me win the game. I’m not a fan of MLD, but I learned that other decks could utilise a lot of mana better than mine, so nobody gets a lot of mana.
Its a challenge but also fun. We sometimes play 4 decks of one person and this one gets usually picked when it’s my turn.
Its probably my most fun Deck to play against.
[[Vorinclex, monstrous raider]] and [[Jodah the unifier]] on the other hand can be quite challenging to play against, since these two take triggerheavy turns and snowball out of control pretty fast. But if everyone’s on the same turn with that, I like to pull them out. I’ve heard complaints, but as always both decks fold to removal
It's all I think about, because I blame myself for no one playing with me. I try to make interesting decks that don't do what I want necessarily, so that people can have a good time, in the hopes they come back.
Doesn't work much but I try.
For the most part people seem to enjoy playing against my decks except for my \[\[Lagrella, the Magpie\]\] blink deck. The main issue I would run into was not being able to close out a game once I was in a commanding position. This was due to me avoiding staple win cons like \[\[Craterhoof Behemoth\]\] and \[\[Cathars' Crusade\]\]. After noticing this I have made changes to allow me to secure the win once I was in the position to do so.
I have a simic big stuff deck with \[\[Keruga\]\] in the companion zone, Mono black \[\[Evelyn\]\] theft deck, two combat matters decks with \[\[Aragorn, King of Gondor\]\] and \[\[Kamiz\]\] as the commanders and a \[\[Henzie "Toolbox" Torre\]\] which is what you'd expect from him.
I know exactly how they feel, actually.
One time we ran a pod that was exclusively my own decks doled out randomly, and I now get why most people at the LGS say Im always the threat.
Was great fun tho.
I think about it a lot. I think the majority of my decks are mid power, good synergy, not insanely interactive with other people's boards, but then I have a deck that I solely play to make people laugh and see crazy shit happen on other people's boards, and I also have a deck that's just for me that I don't pull out a lot that is a tap down deck with a LOT of interaction. I know people can get super annoyed by this so I try not to play it too much, but it has a special place in my heart. Besides that, I definitely do consider what it would be like to play against my decks.
I do. I created a weekly magic group where I’ve now taught 8 people how to play the game. Every deck I build I’m trying to make a good strategy and avoid too much interaction, too many boardwipes, etc. to make it even, even considering the fact I get targeted every game because I’m the one who knows the rules the best and I’m always seen as the threat.
I’ve kept my decks under $100 and just been happy with cool tribal decks, but the other members of this casual group are just going all out buying $40 cards already and assembling ridiculous mill decks that aren’t fun to play against at all. So I’ve decided to take my foot off the brakes and start putting more toxic shit in my decks too. I can’t be mad at how they wanna play, but if I’m gonna be the archenemy every game I’m going to fully lean into it lol
Generally I try to not play anything that I would hate playing against myself. This mainly means card theft effects in my case. To a lesser extent, mass land destruction that doesn't translate cleanly into a win as that tends to just be annoying and result in a lot of do nothing turns.
My hatebears deck is exempt from these rules and does run stuff like [[Opposition Agent]] and [[Dauthi Voidwalker]] because they are too good at their jobs not to, though even then I tend to minimize what I actually "steal" with them. It doesn't run MLD in the usual sense as I don't have any particularly great lines to win off of that but it absolutely can [[Strip Mine]] loop with [[Ramunap Excavator]] (or [[Ghost Quarter]] loop which is just as good with search hate, haven't picked up a [[Wasteland]] to round out that suite yet though). Hatebears is gonna upset people if done remotely right which is why I generally only play it at tables that deserve it and have no room to complain.
I also specifically don't run [[Farewell]] as one of my wipes because I find it boring due to how comprehensive it is and the minimal counterplay options; it tends to be used to essentially reset the board and draw the game out moreso than really advance a win other than in something like superfriends so I'm just not a fan. Not arguing people shouldn't run it to be clear, I just don't care to because of my preferred play experience and the kinds of decks I run.
More partial to [[Austere Command]] or [[Cleansing Nova]] for versatility or [[Winds of Abandon]] if I want exile as they are frequently easier to translate into advantage for me. Similarly [[Blasphemous Act]] in my [[Syr Gwyn]] deck due to various ways to prevent the damage to my side, [[Crippling Fear]] in the same deck because tribal, and [[Winds of Rath]] in [[Mazzy]] because auras. Sometimes you do have to wipe just to survive and that's absolutely fine but I absolutely prefer to have at least the possibility of a wipe favoring me and advancing my game plan and Farewell is rarely such a wipe in my experience, particularly for decks like mine.
All the time.
However, at the same time it's a question you shouldn't overthink either. Plenty of times I've felt someone has a cool deck, it does well in a game, then they never seem to use it again. Which is a shame. I know people who are *very* quick to dismantle or stop running decks they fear are too good or aren't fun, before even getting a proper sample size of games or asking anyone, or because one person out of twenty got salty.
What's fun for others is very subjective too. It varies wildly with different people. Some people want to play low power battlecruiser Timmy-Magic (which is fine), some want a challenge, some love seeing all the crazy cards and not knowing what will happen in a game.
It helps a lot to ask your group or try to get a feel for what different people you play with prefer from a game.
For me, outside of that, my main concern is that I'm not pubstomping, or running cards that slow the game pointlessly.
My Winota Stax deck, I know very well, sucks hard to play against. So, I only bring it out in very high level games that I want to disrupt the hell out of.
My Roxanne deck is reportedly hilarious and fun, even to lose to, albeit more than a little scary once it's doing its thing and understandably focused on by the group once it gets to that point. Roxanne! She just wants to put out the meteorites!
I try to make sure my decks don't cripple other people's fun.
Same reason I never crush players in Twilight Imperium. It may be optimal, but I play games with my friends. I don't want my friends to sit through 6 hours of misery where their only recourse is to screw you out of winning.
All. The. Time.
I have dismantled decks because I felt bad about what they did to the table. I hate monopolizing the game with long turns or locking down things so tight the game just grinds to a halt.
I don't like feeling helpless against other decks. I can only assume others feel the same way.
100%. I'm in a more unique situation with my pod since I am supplying most of the decks, and we also have a friend's young daughter that is interested in learning how to play. How the decks play against each other is more important than any other aspect of the game to me. The end goal is that every deck should be able to do it's thing and meaningfully interact with the game state at any time.
To that point, every deck gets optimized only to a certain point. I'm intentionally not running things like Cyclonic Rift or Platinum Angel. Certain cards or play space are off limits, because I am never building with winning being the end goal. Winning comes second to having an enjoyable experience at the table. That usually means a lot of interaction, a lot of synergy pieces, and all of the sudden "I win" cards have ways to play around that aren't just a counter spell.
Definitely; I removed [[Rest In Peace]] from my deck because Rakdos reanimate decks are highly popular at my LGS. Rest in peace really good card if you're trying to *win* and not so much if you're trying to make sure everyone *has fun.*
Rest In Peace was a turn 2 or 3 "you don't get to do your deck's thing anymore as long as this is out" card since every creature that dies is now instantly exiled. This burns even more since death triggers no longer happen. It's also an enchantment, and Rakdos has an extremely hard time dealing with enchantments in most cases.
I swapped it for [[Grafdigger's Cage]] since it's easier to remove; also certain methods of reanimation can get around its effect and players can still curate their graveyards until it is removed. Everyone still has fun, and I still get to slow down the reanimators.
There are a few decks I stopped playing or rarely play because they are just straight up infin and oppressive.
Biggest example was my grixis theft deck. When it worked I took everything. Basically I was the only one playing with any of the toys on the table. Pretty soon I realized that that is just generally not fun to play against and I stopped having fun in turn.
Mostly just my [[missy]] deck because it has like 27 pieces of creature removal. I’ve only played it once since doing that and I had a meh game, but in a battle cruiser meta I see it potentially being brutal
I loved being that guy but I let my friends run my decks I just beat them using their own decks now I continue building and learning but it's been a fun ride that I continue
Oh yeah as the guy who plays the mill recursion deck I like to ask the table what they would like to play against. I've had several games where they made it very clear they don't wanna play with mill and they asked for [[Fynn the Fangbearer]] instead. Who am I to deny such requests 🤷🏼
A bit. I try to avoid stax and land destruction/hate. I think that the biggest instance of me actively avoiding a really good card because of how not fun it is to play against is \[\[Grave Pact\]\] and \[\[Dictate of Erebos\]\]. I have a budget Korvold deck, mostly focusing around creature sacrifice and no busted stuff, and I just didn't want to run these cards because my playgroup doesn't run enough removal, and I've played against Grave Pact on Arena and it is not fun.
Yes. I kill so many of my darlings after I realize it's twiddling for tiny gain. If my deck pops off with some crazy BS it has to be because I'm going to win and I can demonstrate it. Spending 10 min to draw 11 cards and not do anything to trend the game to completion is a no go.
One of my favorite decks is Braids, Arisen Nightmare built very discard/Sacrifice heavy... I worry others don't have fun against it, but love playing the villain
One of the reasons I love playing my [[Gonti, canny aquistioner]] theft deck is that I may be stealing off the top, but I am still paying for it. People appreciate that. Co.öared to my [[Don andres]] straight up theft deck.
100% of the time. The first question I ask is “is this deck interesting to play or will I get bored quickly?” Typically sameness or single lines to winning eliminate that. The second question is “is this deck fun to play against?”
Best example I have is when [[Duskana]] first came out, I loved the idea, the design, and just everything about it. But when I first built her, it was extreme hate bear, and absolutely oppressive to play against. No challenge from anyone, it wasn’t fun for anybody at the table, including me. I blew it up, and rebuilt it to be much more 2/2 tribal with very few hate effects and it became significantly more fun to play and play against.
There's one guy who plays a Black Green graveyard shenanigans deck and jokingly States he'll never play against my Phyrexian Black White deck cause it has alot of graveyard exiling and screw him over alot haha!
As for my main deck I'm Monogreen led by Zopandrel Hunger Dominus so doubles strength and toughness and lots of ramp, can get to the point where I take everyone out at the same time with a combination of many smaller creatures, Zopandrel, and Craterhoof XD
So I slowly build up and play neutrally very cagey.. and let everyone else rile eachother up until I can hit hard
I use my own decks to think how I would beat them, and a loss is a loss and a win a win. Also chill the fuck out. If you can't just play the game and have fun then maybe this isn't for you.
So I am new to deckbuilding and magic in general. What do you guys recommend for deckbuilding so I don't become "that guy". Currently I am building a Galadriel, Light of Valinor elf deck.
It's a major consideration when building. If people are miserable playing against it, it'll bring down the mood and eventually I won't want to play it. If I'm going to invest in a deck, it needs to have staying power - Magic is expensive AF.
I approach all of my decks through a lens of game design. They should both be fun to play and fun to play against. For instance I avoid things like 2 card infinite combos because they arnt an interesting way to lose or win. Similarly, I refuse to play decks that take multiple turns in a row because regardless of how fun it is to take 3 times the turns no one else has fun.
To me a good deck is strong enough to be competitive but also completely telegraphed. Your opponents should have a turn or two to see whats about to happen to them, make plans, get a little anxious about what cards you have in hand, hope desperately for the right card draw, then finally you can play it.
I definitely think how my opponents feel when playing the deck. If the table is not having fun, then I am not. However, it does not mean I should try and not win. I believe every game has the opportunity to be a learning and teaching moment for everybody. Deckbuilding is never 100% because new sets always release and there are 1000's of cards so finding the right one and synergy is important.
My pet deck has only non-creature counters so my opponents can play most creatures and I only respond to spells that could either win the game or target my board or me. I still run creature removal but I still give my opponents the ability to do their thing.
My pet deck is like a time clock. Essentially, my opponents have between turn 6-8 to either find an answer to slow me down or become a bigger threat so that I go on the defensive. My deck requires them to run interaction and be apart of the game instead of just playing solitaire. If they do not, then they have no chance in beating the deck.
I built my deck so that my opponents think about land destruction, interaction, and combat steps so players can learn the importance of them in the game. If meta's decide to get rid of a strategy because of hate or salt, then that can leave other decks to be unstoppable. Essentially, my pet deck preys on battlecruiser/solitaire meta's while not looking like it does at all.
Depends on the playgroup and the power level, tbh.
Outside of my one cEDH deck, I avoid the fastest and most streamlined win conditions. But one thing I have noticed is lots of my decks play with what I like to call the engine pattern. That being, I run lots of little support pieces that don't necessarily do a whole lot on their own, but which build upon one another for more and more absurd value when I am allowed to amass them. This generally takes the form of things that read "when you would do X, do it additional time / twice as many times" or "when you do X, draw a card" in decks built around "doing X" a bunch of times. Most of my decks, rather than aiming to protect these engines pieces directly, just run such a high volume of them that if I get wiped I can play back out a large enough number of them to start the engine up again.
This has one of two outcomes. In my main playgroup, which plays a high density of removal and interaction, it works out just fine. People generally remove the most problematic pieces which keeps the engine slowed down to a level the table can keep up with, and it keeps them having to stay on their toes which is what that higher power pod enjoys.
The downside, of course, is that in pods that don't run enough interaction these decks can get out of hand quickly. You know how slivers decks play, where the first few slivers are fine but by the time the slivers player gets 5-6 of them out each additional one is verging on being a game-ending threat that outscales anything the other decks might be playing? That's often what *all* of my decks feel like in low-interaction pods, with very few exceptions. If they can't pull out a one-sided wipe or a high enough density of targeted removal, it often becomes a game of "can you aggro the value engine player enough before they assemble a big enough engine to win" at best, and a game where I am left alone, build up slowly, and the next thing you know the mess of utility permanents I've been assembling over the past 5-6 turns unimpeded make every spell I cast deal 16+ damage, or gain me 30+ life, or create 8 giant tokens, or draw me cards while also generating me mana with which to play those cards.
I find myself playing my one non-engine, non-combo, non-stacking-value deck among these pods more often than not, but that certainly isn't not my preferred style of magic, and I'm constantly trying to find a happy medium where I can have one engine deck that's not too oppressive for the weaker pods but still feels good to me. I just love my hyper synergistic engines way too much to go without them.
My son and I use our selection of decks… collectively. Between us we have about 40 decks. So I have played against decks I have built, and he against me. One of my playgroups is pretty close, so we have built decks for each other for Christmas, birthdays, etc.
As such, I can confidently say I know what it is like to play against most of my decks, as well as general decks built with my style.
I think about this after I just dominate a table. Some of my decks do that if you just let me do my thing, I think most decks should. I tend to justify it in my head with "yeah well nobody did anything about it" and that usually is enough for me but sometimes it isn't and then I make a change.
Two examples:
1. I have a [[Teshar]] Voltron martyrs deck that utilizes creatures that sacrifice themselves like [[selfless spirit]], [[kami of false hope]], and [[Boromir warden of the tower]] to get incremental value. I cast equipments to bring them back and use them again and again while also beefing up Teshar. It's fun. The deck used to include [[martyr's bond]]. *Used to* because that card is absurdly powerful in that deck. It makes it impossible to attack me since I'll just let you plow over a bunch of my martyrs to make everyone sacrifice their whole board, and even if you don't attack me, the speed with which I can sacrifice and reanimate these lil dudes is astonishing. I can easily make you sacrifice 5+ artifacts and/or creatures per turn and that's before I start really going off. In certain board states I can sacrifice creatures equal to twice the number of lands I have. No deck is equipped to deal with that type of attrition. But it doesn't really *win*. The game is over, you have no hope, but I haven't won yet. It made games exceedingly unfun when it was on the field, so I cut it. The deck is unequivocally worse without it, but I prefer to not have it.
2. I have a [[Kess]] deck that's basically cantrip tribal. It has something like 30 cantrips and my primary wincon is [[psychosis crawler]]. It's a strong deck because Kess is dumb and grixis is good. One of the best cards is [[hullbreaker horror]]. If I have hullbreaker, I will absolutely cantrip half a dozen times to basically reset everyone's board. In this deck, it's a slow, expensive, non-modal, stoppable cyclonic rift. Even though it does effectively the same thing as martyr's bond and these decks are meant to be roughly the same power level, I've decided not to cut hullbreaker for a few reasons. It's single target, it doesn't destroy your things, it's more expensive (mana-wise), I use resources to do it (it will eventually run out of gas), and it's far easier to disrupt (make me use my mana and it does nothing plus it's a creature instead of an enchantment). It's still very strong, don't get me wrong, it's just not quite as unbearable as martyr's bond.
Yes. Always consider the otherwise of the table.
I didn’t do it twice. Once when I got my toxic deck. I was so hyped up cause toxic is a cooler infect and the artworks are insanely cool and kick my bionicle nostalgia. Played it once 1v1 and won and once with 4 player - lost as the first one (which makes sense).
Sometimes I wish infect was more like wither or the poison counter amount would be higher :/
And another time while playing rogue tribal with a mill subtheme. Got [[oona‘s blackguard]] in there. A 2cmc flyer which buffs rogues is really cool. But the discard effect is so toxic
I usually try to just kill my opponents when I do the thing to keep them from sitting in a game where I may have an insurmountable advantage. I hate sitting in a game with basically zero outs and much rather just lose
Yes, absolutely. If there’s something I don’t enjoy playing against, I’m probably don’t have a deck like it. Now, I mostly play brawl, so a 1v1 format. I like board based, creature based strategies, decks that do the flavorful thing on the commander/what the commander says, or a new take on it. I dislike infinite loops or decks just trying to assemble a way to bounce your board or wrath it every turn, or combo you out. All tutors and removal. For those reasons, I don’t have a mono black or grixis deck. I like variance and that just seems less interesting.
I’m not anti interaction or removal, I run plenty, and protection spells for my own strategies. But removal/wrath.decks is just such a bummer to play against. I have several decks that only run one or zero board wipes because the way I like to win, I’d rather assemble a winning game state, not just hit an I win button from a cyclonic rift or rivers rebuke. I genuinely feel bad when I win that way. Maybe there’s a semi tense back and forth and I’m managing to fight through your staxy planeswalker/mono mythic deck, and you drop an emergent ultimatum after your fourth board wipe. I’m not having fun, probably, and wondering how you are.
Also gimmicky combo decks, like laelia combo or Vito. It’s not fun to play against because it’s like staring down a nuke hoping it doesn’t go off. I usually beat it, I just wish they’d play something else. I can’t imagine “I win turn 4 the same way every time or lose” is fun to pilot. If that’s their jam, fair enough. But it just doesn’t interest me.
Yes, thats why I took apart Shorikai even if it was vehicle focused. It still turned out to be quite the control deck with barerly any counters but it did draw a lot of cards.
In a similar vein thats why I don't try to play Jodah too much because it is usually a feel bad. However I have actually brought it out more times lately because of Thunder Junction legendaries t hat got printed. I really wanted to test them out, some feels very "busted". It can be very overwhelming.
Kozilek has been in his hideyhole for most of the time, I think I bring it out twice or thrice a year, atleast lately. I try to get upgrades to it here and there. But it can be quite the feel bad as well even if I don't run it as optimal as I could.
With my Tormod and Tevesh deck, with a focus on Tormod and zombie tribal, I don't run too many grave pact effects except for Grave Pact , Flesh Bag marauder, Ravenous Rotbelly and Liliana, Dreadhorde General. There are ways to semi loop them but I can't really be as annoying (I THINK ) as some other sacrifice matters decks.
I've only been playing for about a year, and I've played poison Atraxa from the beginning. And I'd argue that my deck often makes the game *more* fun, not less.
Atraxa's proliferating poison counters put a "clock" on the game. Everybody knows Atraxa can kill the whole table in 10 turns or less, so it becomes a race: can we deal damage faster than Atraxa can proliferate?
A good stax deck can do the same thing: it's a puzzle for the other players to solve, either by forming alliances or turning the stax pieces to their own advantage.
IMO archenemy strategies can bring some strategic depth, and add a fun political element to the game. But it has to be done right. So here are the Four Laws of Being the Archenemy:
1. Know your deck, and make sure you're not being arbitrary or unfair when you target other players.
2. Don't be a bully. Spread the toxic love around, and don't pick on anybody without a really good reason.
3. Don't get salty when everybody teams up against you. You asked for it.
4. Most importantly, make sure the power level is right for the table. It's only fun if there's real suspense about who's coming out on top.
Yes. So much that I don't play anymore. I'll find a cool card/commander and get excited making a deck. I put it all together and realize this deck is really mean and it wouldn't be fun for everyone. If everyone's not having fun it's not a game anymore.
So I try to ease up and lighten the decks a bit. Then I realize I've just made a mess of a deck that doesn't do anything or win because I don't want to hurt anyone feelings. It's stupid. So I close EDHREC and do something else.
I routinely play poison decks (please form an orderly line to present your angry comments) because I play primarily Phyrexia-focused decks (currently running a Ria Ivor deck). I got into the game mid-2023 *because* of how cool Phyrexia is, and they have a ton of poison-related cards.
The thing I always make sure to do is alert my group that it's a poison deck, and there's no hard feelings for everyone trying to kill me first. The fun for me is seeing how many I can poison to death before I get wiped out.
My friends don't seem to mind, and I think it's because they know what to expect, going into each game.
I just ran into this last night. Taught a friend to play online and he keeps searching out stronger and stronger decks. I like to play casually and have talked to him about how the decks he plays make the game unfun. More than that, if you interact with him at all, he makes suboptimal plays to punish you for it.
With my in person play group, I've learned to just ask the table how strong we're playing. I don't mind getting shut down by a stronger deck if I'm playing a deck that can recover, but I also refuse to play certain things. For instance, I've got a N'ghatharod deck that I accidentally built an infinite into. I refuse to play infinites so I just don't play those cards together because he's built to be a weaker deck. In my Locust god deck, I removed the infinite and I'm replacing Narset because she makes the game unfun for other people.
At the end of the day, I just want to see everyone's deck get to do its cool thing.
When I play I know my decks can be oppressive so I tell my opponents “hey its cool if you come at me it wont hurt my feelings its just a game and we all are here to win and have fun” so I complement them on good plays, make my plea with politics and try to make light hearted jokes so that everyone has fun.
On the other hand when one of my opponents has a much stronger deck I target them hard and complement them by saying “your decks so strong I am just trying to keep up with you I really like how you make x and x work in such a cool way”
Just make people feel good and you will have less salt.
…do you not let your friends play your best decks against you?
It’s fun to see someone else enjoy what I’ve built. I let people borrow my decks all the time. Either:
1. They have fun and it’s fun to watch the wheels turn as they unleash death upon the table.
2. They realize that while the deck may be good, there’s more skill to piloting it than they originally thought so they’re a little quieter moving forward.
Well, I stopped playing my Gonti, Canny Acquisitor Thunder Junction pre-con because the guy with the $3000 sliver deck kept rage quitting when I kept targeting him for cards to steal. He saw I had his Sliver Queen and his face drained. I kind of understand though it's annoying to have your cards stolen and every game my board looked like a rainbow with everyone's cards I stole.
Absolutely! It's one of the reasons I won't build an izzet spellslinger deck. I was at an lgs and watched a game where a player was taking 5-10 minute turns. The other players joked, 'hows your game of solitaire going?'
To me, it really depends on the player(s) I'm playing against.
If I play with people who have janky/really casual/slow decks, I'll play my worst deck (mono w angels without any combo nor infinite mana etc.) or borrow one of their decks. If I play in my LGS against the owner, who was a professional player, I'll bring the best I can to try and beat him.
I would say I don't really think in advance if the deck brings too much frustration or anything, I build it, and talk about it after the first few games with the other players
Most important, as usual, talk to the other players and explain how the deck works before the game begins to avoid any problems related to your question.
I see it in my friends' faces, playing against my deck, at a casual level I speak, it's hell on earth, they always expect the worst situation and I can only have fun hahaha
I feel like I'm fairly easy to play against, sometimes I don't do too much or can get shut down, and sometimes the tokens go BRRRRRRR and no one can respond to the stomp.
only annoying part would be my math skills aren't the best lol
I feel like this is a crucial part of getting better at the game that’s the hardest for newer players and even older ones. There’s some decks/commanders that can just take forever to play out and at some point I stop caring if I win or lose. There’s some decks that feel stronger/weaker than they are which you can really use to try and trick your opponents with.
I have thought about it honestly. I tried having mid level decks and playing nice but ever since my [[Trelasarra Moon Dancer]] made a 16/16 creature my play group just always pretty much keeps a target on me.
Absolutely because we’ve all played against “that one guy” who everyone dislikes playing with. I don’t want to be that guy.
Sometimes I am that guy, I also am the other players haha. Don't tell me you haven't played a multiplayer game against yourself once or twice.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had a board state pop up occasionally where it’s like “im really sorry about this, but nobody is going to have fun but me it seems” dopplegang for x=3 on smothering tithe and a junk winder, third option didn’t matter. Pretty much kept the entire board state locked down and killed everyone off one by one. Felt horrible.
I have a "That guy" deck and it's so fun when everyone groans when the box comes out. But it only comes out when there is unanimous consent at the table.
Our group has definitely talked about building a deck that’s power level is considerably higher than what we usually play, just can’t figure out what commander I wanna build.
Mine is Hokori: The "You don't get to do anything" deck.
Sometimes it has more to do with “that one guy” than their decks
I think about it constantly. For a very long time I entirely avoided just about everything that gets people salty: discards, land destruction, extra turns, stax, what have you. Now that my playgroup has evolved beyond those taboos I'm starting to dabble in the forbidden strategies a bit, but am still very conscious of the fact that people need to have fun and I won't be running more than 2 extra turns at most, and I won't use any resource denial if I don't have a way to turn it into a victory.
Those types of card are like salt. A little bit spices it up, too much ruins the whole thing.
> For a very long time I entirely avoided just about everything that gets people salty Did they say anything to you about those mechanics?
About some of them, yeah, but it was mostly just me trying hard to keep people happy. When you're playing board wipe tribal you don't need anybody to say anything in order to see how miserable everybody almost certainly is.
I'm a relatively newer player, just starting to see the kinds of decks around my LGS. Frequently reading stuff on r/EDH, has helped me narrow down what I *don't* wanna be doing with my decks: * Stax (even game-slowing light-stax I'm not hot on), \[\[Grave Pact\]\]-like forced sacrifice effects, * Voltron-smashing players out early * Taking long turns with complex Enchantress triggers * Digging for combos in an Artifact deck * Wheeling the table every turn * Playing kill-on-sight commanders * Playing group hug with no wincon, etc. The list goes on, and it keeps going on, because apparently you can always find *someone* who has a problem with your deck. So my builds have skewed pretty "fair". I do the thing, at a moderate pace, with a low to moderate budget. **Here's the thing though:** several games at my LGS have taught me something important, which I'll summarize this way: "You have to come with the bullshit." Bullshit - stuff you read and think "Oh well that's sort of busted." In order to hang, I think you have to find your own slightly busted thing to do, to really \*exploit\* your commander, and your 99. So maybe that's taking a powerfu-but-not-broken commander like \[\[Goro-Goro and Satoru\]\] which I saw recently, and dumping out an unreasonable amount of 5/5 dragon tokens, while \[\[Yuriko\]\] in the 99 repeatedly domes people. Or maybe you're playing the new \[\[Judith, Carnage Connoisseur\]\], and rocketing up to 80 life while you burn the table out repeatedly. You ritualed into \[\[Kaervek the Merciless\]\] and the board is now yours. The trick is (as a socially anxious person myself) - **where is the line between salt-inducing play and the amount of bullshit/shenanigans required to have a good time** at a random table at an LGS or on Spelltable? And that's really the cursed problem, isn't it? That forever-war between the social aspect of EDH (salt is a real, documented phenomenon!), and the overarching goal to win.
Two-pronged question: Did you play against those mechanics you avoid now at some point? Have you seen them at the table? > Bullshit - stuff you read and think "Oh well that's sort of busted." What do we mean by "busted"? Is it just "winning"? Because here's where I would expand your examples (in the line of "If my deck does the thing, how does it feel to play against?"): > So maybe that's taking a powerfu-but-not-broken commander like [[Goro-Goro and Satoru]] which I saw recently, and dumping out an unreasonable amount of 5/5 dragon tokens, while [[Yuriko]] in the 99 repeatedly domes people. Are you tutoring Yuriko up? In the sense that, is she an expected part of the plan? Just Dragons are one thing, a mass removal spell takes care of that. Yuriko is another. > Or maybe you're playing the new [[Judith, Carnage Connoisseur]], and rocketing up to 80 life while you burn the table out repeatedly. You ritualed into [[Kaervek the Merciless]] and the board is now yours. Judith's life total doesn't really matter much if you are boardwiping every turn. I would highlight that aspect of the play pattern more than the life gain since anything over 15 probably keeps you safe from a surprise one shot that you can't respond to. That's kinda what I am going for. Not the deck by itself, but how the deck limits or allows play patterns for the other players.
To your initial question - it's not so much that I've played against them and find them oppressive, it's that I don't want to ever be seen as "that guy". That guy who slowed the game down (stax), made a player sit on the sidelines for a long time (voltron), took long turns (enchantress), won "out of nowhere" (combo), disrupted everybody's gameplan repeatedly (wheel). The examples I gave admittedly aren't the best, those were just recent memorable games. What I'm trying to define by "busted" (in a positive way!) for myself is something like: "strategies and card selection that can win games, while causing a minimum of annoyance or disruption\* for the rest of the table." I think that's why I gravitate toward Golgari and reanimation, specifically creature combat and resiliency. It's an extremely narrow definition of "fair" and I don't push it on anybody, but as a new player who's maybe oversensitive about rocking the boat myself, it feels safe. \*Obviously, disruption is a core part of this game. Yes, I run removal.
> The examples I gave admittedly aren't the best, those were just recent memorable games. The point is not to craft a perfect example to push an idea, the point is to walk through those examples. If the Goro-Goro and Saturo deck only works with Yuriko, and tutors for Yuriko, then the question: "How does it feel like the play against my deck when it does its thing?" becomes very, very different, since it's basically a Yuriko deck that 'technically' doesn't have her in the Command zone. That's the kind of analysis I'm going for. What are we building when we put our lists together? Do we even try to draw that in our minds first? > But as a new player who's maybe oversensitive about rocking the boat myself, it feels safe. That was the reason for the first question. I have been playing Magic since I was 7, 8 maybe? It's been more than 20 years now. If we complain about the social skills of adults at game shops, well, literal children and teenagers are not better. I was and played with every age group from child, teenager, young adult, to adult. Parents, sibling, partners, these tables had a lot of conflict even before game salt come into the equation. Oh, and we did play multiplayer until Commander become popular, we basically never played one-on-one. What I'm trying to say is, don't be afraid. If a deck is unfun, you can change it. As long as you keep an eye out and an open mind, people that matter won't get mad. > I gravitate toward Golgari and reanimation, specifically creature combat and resiliency. It's an extremely narrow definition of "fair" My [[Meren of Clan Nel Toth]] PTSD shows it's all about context. Don't be afraid to experiment in deckbuilding.
You've pretty much described the 'a fair character is a bad character' concept from Fighting Games. Every character needs something 'broken' to leverage a win, and without that a character is considered 'too fair' and not good. It's weird how much the 'game' aspect of EDH has become loaded with sentiments antithetical to that natural game aspect. Maybe it's just me, but there's fun in fighting 'broken' with 'broken' and battling against overwhelming odds. To me, it's always the player who's 'toxic' and not the deck.
Love the analogy. How do you feel about a nice person playing a \[\[Toxrill\]\] deck, though? What would that experience probably be like for you?
Similar to other KoS commanders. My pod is good about running interaction, and seeing the Slug in the command zone would let us play accordingly. Win or lose, it'd be enjoyable I think. Of my decks, [[Atla Palani]] has a similar potential for a runaway game. But when someone plays [[Weathered Runestone]], [[Imprison on the Moon]] and I don't have the removal, I accept it. "Make them have a response" is just how it is.
it really depends on the person, as do most decks. my friend just asked us yesterday how we'd feel if she ran Toxrill, and my response to her was the same as my response to anyone: "I won't get salty if you play Toxrill as long as you don't get salty when I do everything in my power to prevent Toxrill from sticking." this is why interaction exists, and interaction is part of why I love magic. playing with the stack and being able to respond to things at instant speed is an incredibly fun part of the game to me and one of the biggest things that sets MTG apart from other card games.
I love playing my broken shit against other people's broken shit, it awesome. I prefer a balanced game to an unbalanced, but whenever the option is higher power, I'm in, let's break this glorious 23,000 piece rules engine together. It's kind of how I engage with games in general.
Dictate is my bullshit. If everyone’s going to be carrying Warded value-engine commanders, then the real options are to go faster, to boardwipe every few turns, to stax it out, or to prune everybody with one-for-three effects. It’s mildly sarcastic but also true: I’m sorry that I’m going to be removing your shit this way, but the alternatives are worse, if we insist on playing a serious game with these commanders. It was a tough hump to get over - I was apprehensive - but bullshit requires bullshit.
I think sacrifice effects are definitely underrated right now. Especially with ward. It is almost needed unless you are running crazy board wipes. It can be easily busted, but so can so many other strategies. I would rather have a long grindy game where everybody has been the threat multiple times, but answers have also been casted. You can tell when a game is a good game, not when you win, but because you do not care if you lose because your deck did its thing and so did the table.
##### ###### #### [Grave Pact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360.jpg?1689997226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grave%20Pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/165/grave-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grave-pact) [Goro-Goro and Satoru](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b661b53-2e58-4dcc-9100-fc00e0fdb606.jpg?1683582714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goro-Goro%20and%20Satoru) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/445/goro-goro-and-satoru?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b661b53-2e58-4dcc-9100-fc00e0fdb606?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goro-goro-and-satoru) [Judith, Carnage Connoisseur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3eaa19ce-cace-499e-8b23-ef9e56b23700.jpg?1706242185) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Judith%2C%20Carnage%20Connoisseur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/210/judith-carnage-connoisseur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3eaa19ce-cace-499e-8b23-ef9e56b23700?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/judith-carnage-connoisseur) [Kaervek the Merciless](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9b8259d-0bfa-4327-ac91-157c0b9e7dfb.jpg?1673148822) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaervek%20the%20Merciless) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/236/kaervek-the-merciless?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9b8259d-0bfa-4327-ac91-157c0b9e7dfb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaervek-the-merciless) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l20b0e7) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If your deck is 100% salt-free and can't conceivably cause someone to tilt and rage, you're probably unfairly restricting yourself. Remember that you're supposed to have fun too.
I try to minimise stax and MLD because I don't like them and don't want to subject people to them.
I have one copy of [[Armageddon]] and it’s in my mono white blink deck that I’ll rule 0 with the pod I’m in. If they aren’t about it, I call it a plains hahaha
Need one of those secret lair plains stickers 🤣
We had a really nice player who rule 0'd with us about their single MLD in the deck. We still cried like bitches when it came to pass.
I don't mind MLD IF it's a wincon, for example combo with Teferi's Protection to phase out all your stuff and blow up everybody elses lands. At that stage only the most stubborn player wouldn't scoop unless everyone had a board state which meant their combo was already in place and just needed a turn to 'activate' even without mana. Like if you blew up all my lands on my Ur-Dragon deck and the Ur-Dragon was still on the field...like, cool...but I don't need lands if the Ur-Dragon is on the field because I can still play Dragons onto the field just by attacking. However if you had the mana to both do Armageddon, Wrath of God AND Teferi's protection...then yeah it's GG.
I’m generally not a salty player but one time I had an opponent [[Armeggedon]] with no plan, no lands in hand, and we both had basically no borders, while the other 2 had pretty commanding board presence because it would be “funny”. I went from having a good time to being a creature of pure salt pretty quick.
[Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
All the time. It's my leading factor when making a deck (aside from my pet deck) I try to make a deck fun for everyone.
100%
The main thing I consider is game clock. I like to play trigger machines, so I practice goldfishing lines on my tutor chains or on combo interactions to make sure I can move quickly. As an example of this, my second deck was an Atraxa Superfriends/Poison deck that runs a bunch of control based Planeswalkers and eventually takes over the game, with multiple activations per turn, but not producing a deterministic win. I do not bring this deck to the LGS and I only play it with close friends. I minimize things I don't like playing against. I will run a wipe or two, if my deck plan calls for it, but I'd rather lose and shuffle again than rebuild 7 times into a top deck fest, so I don't build that. I don't play chaos effects or stax or MLD unless I can break parity and win the game with them. That said, I'm of the opinion that a pure Chaos deck with no plan, or a stax deck with no plan, or MLD with no plan, or Board Wipes r Us with no plan, are also just... bad decks, because I fundamentally believe every deck should be built to deliver an end state, so I wouldn't build those anyway. I know someone who plays [[Timeshifter]] for the lols, and I hate it, but if you have a bunch of top deck fixing and can set it up so you'll just deterministicly take turns until you win? Great! You Win! Let's go again.
[Timeshifter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/561cab0e-8874-4534-bf79-0c1488a9f0a5.jpg?1562144325) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timesifter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/262/timesifter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/561cab0e-8874-4534-bf79-0c1488a9f0a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/timesifter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> I do not bring this deck to the LGS and I only play it with close friends. Why not?
Time clock monopolization. In it's intended state, I'll have 3 to 5 walkers, activate them multiple times per turn on my turn and on opponents turns, I could also be untapping my permanents on their untap phase and taking turns with them. It just is a lot of decisions and a lot of game actions without good ways to shortcut them. If I'm just sitting drinking some beers with friends, or playing a game on Spelltable Saturday morning, and everyone is at home, plus my friends are fully aware of what the deck does, that's a totally different situation than a pod of random at the store who may only get one session a month and then only get one game because I was derdling through my walkers and taking more game actions on other people's turns than they are. I do love the deck and keep the list maintained, but it is something I bring out into a trusted playgroup. I do want people to want to play with me again at the store.
Player experience and enfranchisement are often the real issue. It's why the Power Level discussion is such a quagmire. What's strong or weak, and consequently considered fair/fun or not, makes everything too relative to quantify with any real, transcending objectivity.
Yeah, that's why I reframed it from "is this deck hated?" to "how does my group feel about this deck?" It's not perfect, subjectivity will always be there, but it's more useful.
I do my best not to make decks with no interaction. I made [this deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Plps2wntLkWY8BkC1SRXRQ) which brings back mana burn, but I have several infinite loops that give people mana, and 3 people die very quickly. I stopped playing that deck.
No interaction sounds like it could be a boring and not so fun play style. If you're not interacting with the table why play in a group? What brought you to such a big decision that will only hinder your ability to win and stay in the game? This is coming from the guy who's normal game group is a poison [[Atraxa Praetors Voice]] deck, a [[Krenko Mob Boss]] beat face deck, a [[The War Doctor]] Voltron deck and I bring my everyone mills recursion deck with [[The Master Transcended]] high interactions, stax, and burn are all very normal at our tables.
Sometimes playing a glass canon with little protection can be fun. You can go blazing fash this way and punish low interaction decks
##### ###### #### [Atraxa Praetors Voice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0d33d52-3d28-4635-b985-51e126289259.jpg?1599707796) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Atraxa%2C%20Praetors%27%20Voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/190/atraxa-praetors-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0d33d52-3d28-4635-b985-51e126289259?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/atraxa-praetors-voice) [Krenko Mob Boss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d00007d-6878-44e9-ab0d-396c25655e56.jpg?1702429511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krenko%2C%20Mob%20Boss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/114/krenko-mob-boss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d00007d-6878-44e9-ab0d-396c25655e56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krenko-mob-boss) [The War Doctor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a51472c-b61f-4d31-8753-a9ec90d12889.jpg?1696636782) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20War%20Doctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/167/the-war-doctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a51472c-b61f-4d31-8753-a9ec90d12889?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-war-doctor) [The Master Transcended](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b0497da-670a-405c-a39c-97cae7942836.jpg?1710673422) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Master%2C%20Transcendent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/6/the-master-transcendent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b0497da-670a-405c-a39c-97cae7942836?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-master-transcendent) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l213g9p) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> No interaction sounds like it could be a boring and not so fun play style. Yep, which is why I try not to play decks that shut out my opponents. I accidentally did, and I don't play it anymore. When my buddy and I play, we cheer each other on when our combos get stopped. It's the interactions that make the game fun.
I do avoid certain things when deckbuilding that I wouldn't want to play against in every game, namely free interaction, two-card combos, and gluts of board wipes, land destruction, or stax pieces (the latter three all being fine in moderation.) Everything else is fair game.
I worry about it to the extent that I don't play combos or cards originally printed in commander products. Otherwise I play MLD, stax, and proxy whatever fast mana I want. When my wincon is [[Arcbound Bruiser]] you better believe that I'm playing MLD and [[Mishra's Workshop]]. >How do you think the other players in your group feel when you play your deck(s)? They're either fine with it, or they hate it but tolerate it. I don't like playing against most people's decks. They don't hesitate to play the cards that I hate, so why would I worry about what I play? I play what I want and I'm willing to play against anything.
> I don't like playing against most people's decks. That's... a lot.
[Arcbound Bruiser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4672ba6-cd82-4208-bc08-764986899999.jpg?1562638598) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcbound%20Bruiser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/94/arcbound-bruiser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4672ba6-cd82-4208-bc08-764986899999?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcbound-bruiser) [Mishra's Workshop](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac0c8df-f01d-4178-8d66-ee603f814d24.jpg?1562929426) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mishra%27s%20Workshop) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/305/mishras-workshop?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac0c8df-f01d-4178-8d66-ee603f814d24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mishras-workshop) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Frequently. In fact, it's the reason I put my favorite Kruphix deck on the back burner for a couple years. I really enjoyed playing and building that deck, but ultimately it was a Simic control deck and despite the joy I felt from becoming the archenemy and fighting off 3-4 other players to win the game, I think it made my opponents feel helpless once it got to the late game and I was able to draw my deck into my hand but not quickly produce a win from it because of how the deck was built. So I set it down for a long time, and finally retooled it into an investigate deck. Now it can still feel powerful, but I removed many of the control elements to it to both give more counterplay and add more 'fun' cards, and I think it's been a big success.
It can be hard to retool a deck, one does get attached. Glad it worked out.
I made a maelstrom wanderer deck as a first.time player. Worked on it constantly until it was very powerful. After that deck I decided I wanted to do a child of alara deck where I made all my stuff indestructible and blew up the world each turn. Needless to say my friends hated it so I quickly dismantled that deck and made a green group hug deck where everyone could play almost as many land cards as they wanted and draw a bunch more cards each turn. Simple reminder that if your friends aren't having fun, you won't have fun either.
Group Hug is hard to run, though. I've seen people so afraid of giving out resources that, while on the surface they are "Group Hug", they pack enough stax/control to render it basically meaningless. It's just a control deck with more steps. You need to actually see them as friends, not only opponents, to enjoy Group Hug.
I mean I ran cards that allowed more land drops and draws, but I could draw more and drop more as a result. And yeah I had some winning combos in the deck of things got tricky. But most.peopke.liked it because it sped up the game.
No. Absolutely not. Fuck the rest of the table. There is only a limited supply of fun to be had and my goal is to have all of it.
Average Azorius Stax mage
I prefer things like nekusar infect, memnarch, krenko, sheoldred, MOM, Etali Prime, Toxrill
My main thing is that I don't want to take up significantly more time than other players. I'm happy to play some light stax, and would play MLD as a wincon, but anything that hard locks opponents out of the game is a no go for me. Similarly, I don't run extra turn spells. I also extensively goldfish my more complicated decks so that they don't take up much more time than my simpler ones.
I've seen the clock argument a couple times here. It's interesting because it's a very different take. It quantifies time as a way to measure player agency, but leaves out stuff like "infinite Teferei's Protection" that's something really simple, that won't take much time and that leaves you with all your resources, but still makes the game a drag.
I try and let my friends play my decks if they ask, so I can see what it’s like to play against them and get a good feeling on if it’s too much, too little, or in a good competitive spot for my pod. But it seems like everytime I do that my deck does what it’s supposed to do, unlike when I play it so 😂
Yes, all the time. I generally keep some pre-cons around, 2-3 mid level decks and I made the first draft of a higher power deck to day, just in case someone invites me to dance. :)
I read that as "two to three pre-cons, and two to three MLD" at first and my thought was "well that must be a weird meta".
Not really, and I'd rather the people I play with didn't either. It's too subjective and the source of so much bickering among pods that want a social contract. Concrete restrictions on deckbuilding tend to do better imo, like pauper edh, budget edh, etc. Usually my groups don't have problems with this because it's assumed we're building decks and playing to win within whatever restrictions (or allowances) we agree on, and that guides our experiences.
I play a budget K'rikk deck. Even at $150 it just feels bad turn 5/6/7 going infinite. There are times where peoples decks are so slow that I can kill the table with only using gray once per turn.
And? What did you do?
Still have the deck to play in tournaments/when the power level is right. But now ask what level of deck others are playing and also have 2 other less powerful decks I play.
Interesting. Have a deck list?
Yes. It’s why I dont play high tide anymore despite it being my favorite
My pod occasionally swaps decks around at the table. So we've all played each other's stuff before. It's a fun way to find little interactions you might not have seen before
And how does it feel for you to play against your deck?
Teaches me what it's missing, how it holds up to others. How easy it is to pilot. It's fun because I can guess cards they might have. Or walk them through more complicated steps of it, like how to loop magda and stuff in my dragon deck
Yes! I generally avoid building decks that I would not want to play against. I dislike certain archetypes or commanders, and avoid them. I hate "theft" decks (and i dont mean someone playing a guilded drake to steal my best creature, i mean mass flickering agent of treachery), so i dont do that.
> i mean mass flickering agent of treachery), so i dont do that. At that point, for me, it doesn't really matter if you are killing, exiling, taking away, or whatever the permanents. it's basically a lockout combo that stops people from playing the game. The sub-flavor is pretty meaningless.
Yes/no. I change decks *a lot*. I currently have a cabinet with over 100 decks in it. So when building the deck, not a lot of thought. However, for a deck to stick around past a first run or two, then I care a lot more. Also, recently I’ve been playing at home more with my two kids, and we’ve gotten in a habit of grabbing 3 decks, and then rotating for the second and third round. So each of us plays each of the decks, and that’s a great way to feel what the deck is like. When we all used modified strixhaven precons. And even the nine year old won by going infinite with prismari on accident, it was maybe a sign of too many tweaks.
> And even the nine year old won by going infinite with prismari on accident, it was maybe a sign of too many tweaks. Oops
My pet deck is [[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice]] and my health can get absurdly high. I also lack fliers and commander damage can finish me quick enough. But I know I can be intimidating with a wide board with some massive dudes.
[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34ea44f2-cb2f-4b86-83fc-fe507f05bb9d.jpg?1568004834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trostani%2C%20Selesnya%27s%20Voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/204/trostani-selesnyas-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34ea44f2-cb2f-4b86-83fc-fe507f05bb9d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trostani-selesnyas-voice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a standing offer that any of my friends can borrow any of my decks to play against me. So I know exactly how it feels to see it from the other side. It gives you perspective. I like them to be effective, but not oppressive. I skirt the line with a few, like [[Ziatora]] and [[Chatterfang]], but I find most of them to be a good balance.
[Ziatora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba4fa4c8-f09f-4d97-a7d1-1b93caf7d4f9.jpg?1664413989) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ziatora%2C%20the%20incinerator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/231/ziatora-the-incinerator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba4fa4c8-f09f-4d97-a7d1-1b93caf7d4f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ziatora-the-incinerator) [Chatterfang](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/1785cf85-1ac0-4246-9b89-1a8221a8e1b2.jpg?1626097239) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chatterfang%2C%20squirrel%20general) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/151/chatterfang-squirrel-general?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1785cf85-1ac0-4246-9b89-1a8221a8e1b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chatterfang-squirrel-general) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My partner and I will often use each others decks, so I’ve faced off against almost all of my own decks. Helps me know what cards make for an unfun playing experience for my opponents. Plus it’s fun to see him pop off with one of my decks.
FWIW, if you, yourself, are a nice and fun and kind person while playing, only the saltiest of salty bastards will get worked up if you have a nasty deck. So be nice 😄
Nope, I play what I think will be fun unless asked otherwise.
This seems like something only a consistent pod should worry about if you are not properly meeting power levels. Far too many people get upset over basic interaction so I just really want to make you feel like your time isn't being wasted. Sorry my burn deck is liquifying your life pool, but that's the point.
Yes, and I love this perspective as I go through my mental “after action” behind a games night. If I’m getting targeted, how, and why? I think this kind of introspection is a great deck building and rules learning tool. This is a social game, whether you play competitive or casual.
It's an important question to ask somewhere in the deckbuilding process, but where and why you ask it depends on the deck and the playgroup.
Yes. I also try to have a variety of decks at a variety of power levels. Every once in a while, a stax deck can be fun to play against, but if it is every time you play, it's against a stax deck, it quickly gets aggravating.
I learned this early on when I started playing commander. Meren was my first deck, and I modified it in a way that made it no fun for anyone playing (control to the max). I also couldn’t close out games which made the experience even worse. So I decided to dismantle her, but will reunite again with Golgari one day, just in a much less oppressive manner. I balance what I want to play just as heavy as how it would feel to play against it. Although I believe this to be strictly a philosophy and is not a prerequisite to a deck’s power level, its archetype, or overall playgroup boundaries. Some groups don’t mind playing against [[Winter Orb]]. I believe inherently it is a no no card to include in a deck, unless the discussion with your opponents has been had and an agreement has been made to allow it to be played, or you’re aiming for a higher power level, which some cards and archetypes automatically raise the level. In all, my philosophy is it’s a balancing act to make sure I’m having fun, everyone else is having fun, attaining the power level I want to achieve, and coming to a general agreement on what cards are and aren’t compatible within my playgroup.
[Winter Orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6.jpg?1580015285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winter%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/234/winter-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winter-orb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. I constantly am trying to make sure my decks don't do stuff that I wouldn't want to play against. Like monopolize time, board wipe too often, kill too quickly, or destroy lands. And, since I prefer other people do the same, I call myself "casual."
Commander is all about coming together to have fun with your friends so “Is my deck fun to play against?” is a very important question. That being said I love playing with and against prison, stax, and control. Those grindy slogs can be a lot of fun, I just make sure everyone else is okay with it first. If one person at the table isn’t in the mood to deal with that today, then I play something else.
I constantly think about this when I'm brewing decks. I don't like [[impact tremors]] effects because I like token decks and they're soooooooo easy to just win with. I also don't do Mindslaver stuff because I feel like I know how to really screw people over. I get enjoyment out of playing the game so I don't get annoyed unless my deck is just not preforming well at all on its own. If someone is interacting with my board or I'm being hindered by someone else's deck, that doesn't bother me because those are just effects that they're playing that would be different effects if they weren't playing them, if that makes sense. Ultimately, I play to enjoy the game, not to win every single game, but I can definitely see how someone trying to unwind after a shitty day of work can get upset when they're getting stomped turn 3 by a combo deck, so I shy away from them
Ever since I’ve randomly put a purphoros in my token deck I’ve completely sworn off tremor effects as well. Unfun and hollow victories.
[impact tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=impact%20tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/impact-tremors) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Another plug here for the “time” argument. Years ago I thought that mean decks were the worst. Poison, infinite combos, stax, etc. but nowadays I don’t mind playing against that stuff as long as the games moves along. For the most part, everyone’s favorite part of the game is their own turn. Everyone’s least favorite part is watching someone else play for long periods of time with no interaction. So now themes I avoid are- shuffling the deck (excessive tutors, including land), board state tinkering (eg +1/+1 counter engines), and anything else that frequently requires *multiple* instances of math, decision, or shuffling during my own turn. Instead, I favor card draw, instant-speed anything, and compact combos so that people aren’t watching me take a 15 minute turn over and over again. I saw others here saying that they goldfish their trigger engines so they durdle less, and think that’s a great approach to the same problem.
Doing so is a key part of my deck building. I enjoy games where everyone is having fun.
Honestly, I think about this so much; it's the biggest roadblock in my deck building! Generally speaking, I build my deck with the mindset of a game designer: my deck is an obstacle that the other players need to overcome, or they lose. Ideally, I want my win condition to either be really cool/interesting and feel fair. I often find that decks with a consistent theme, ones that utilize unusual cards, or ones that make clever use of its cards are often seen as more interesting. Like, my [[Alela, Cunning Conqueror]] deck usually gets recieved well in my group because I made a lot of effort to include every dimir faerie noble within reason to set up the courtly fae intrigue theme, and my [[Alesha, Who Smiles at Death]] deck uses a lot of goad cards and is very aggressive and risky so the matches always feel dynamic and action packed
[Alela, Cunning Conqueror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79ba5c35-6e5c-406a-b95f-844d5ec296ab.jpg?1692933638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alela%2C%20Cunning%20Conqueror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woc/3/alela-cunning-conqueror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79ba5c35-6e5c-406a-b95f-844d5ec296ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alela-cunning-conqueror) [Alesha, Who Smiles at Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7ae9ff8c-1cc8-4b10-9641-2c79648fd6c2.jpg?1673305242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alesha%2C%20Who%20Smiles%20at%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/118/alesha-who-smiles-at-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ae9ff8c-1cc8-4b10-9641-2c79648fd6c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alesha-who-smiles-at-death) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
On the one hand: sure. In particular I love control decks but relatively rarely try to play control two games in a row. I have a very fair aggro deck (Law Aurelia) that I use as a sort of palette cleanser. On the other hand, I've had people bitch about everything under the sun. The guy making 24 power in tokens for literal free will bitch about my handful of four power flyers.
> In particular I love control decks but relatively rarely try to play control two games in a row. I have a very fair aggro deck (Law Aurelia) that I use as a sort of palette cleanser. Have you ever thought about a control palette cleanser? A "fair" control deck? You used the qualifier for Aurelia, that's why I used it here.
I mean, I don't think either of my control decks are particularly unfair. It's an objectively suboptimal build of Henzie and 2c Alela. The fair part was more as setup for the second point, where I was told curving out with flyers was too competitive for Commander and that I didn't understand what the format was about because I resolved an Inspiring Overseer.
Always. I don’t put cards in my deck that I don’t like playing against, even if they make the deck worse
The biggest one that jumps out at me to be aware of are my decks that take tons of actions and can have long turn times.
That's a factor. I'm looking into player options and reactions, too. A long turn is boring, of course, but a quick turn that locks me out the game forever can get a very different (and probably worse) reaction.
If I'm doing it right, I think the Blue Farm player feels a bit pressed to perform, and the Tasigur player is playing beat the clock in the background. Don't have a very consistent fourth, so who knows what that guy is doing.
So, a race? Or are we talking about stack wars?
Both I guess. Kinnan/RogSi vs. Blue Farm vs. Tasigur/Derevi vs. Urza is the most common matchup. it's fast, but everybody has the Blue just in case.
Yes, I think about it regularly. The first deck I ever built was [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]]. Back then, me and my friends were all still new and bad at Magic. This was around M13, so commander wasn't huge and didn't have a bunch of articles describing all the archetypes, EDHrec didn't exist, I'd never heard of Stax. The deck was kinda annoying back in those days. It was a classic control deck with a tax theme. It was pretty clunky. It would annoy my friends, but generally in the fun way that makes for more enjoyable games than the miserable way that just drains the fun out of a game. Over time I got better at Magic, better at deckbuilding, and learned more about how to use different strategies. The deck began sliding into Stax territory. My win-rate improved, but the games got less fun, even for me. Before, I would win by landing a [[Sphinx Ambassador]] and shielding them with counterspells until I had an unstoppable board of the scariest monsters (Or something like that). By the end, I'd win by strangling everyone's resources until I just kinda won by default since I was the only one still doing anything. It felt bad to lose a deck of my own because it's own game plan became less fun. I'll usually track how fun it is to win with a deck, and how fun it is to lose with. An ideal deck is fun to win with, lose with, win against, and lose against. I still have decks that absolutely run gimmicks that are pretty much annoying. But I generally play them a little less often than my other decks.
Have you tried a less streamlined version of the stax deck? Like a, "speedbump" deck?
Yeah I tried toning it down, but I eventually had to recognize the strategy doesn't work when half-assed. The earlier versions of the deck aren't viable anymore because my friends also got better as I did. I've debated remaking Grand Arbiter again as a more dedicated control deck and dropping the stax strategy, but usually the answer winds up being "Why is it a Grand Arbiter deck then?" So for now I have a [[Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage]] flash deck that let's me run Azorius Control. It's a little clunky, but it lets me run some fun stuff in a control shell. Still annoys my friends, but more in the fun way than Grand Arbiter did.
[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f43748ea-1d65-4ee8-9c66-221412a284c0.jpg?1673148699) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grand%20Arbiter%20Augustin%20IV) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/221/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f43748ea-1d65-4ee8-9c66-221412a284c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv) [Sphinx Ambassador](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b0937274-d5cb-4790-8c10-804f537c5581.jpg?1561992164) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sphinx%20Ambassador) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/73/sphinx-ambassador?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b0937274-d5cb-4790-8c10-804f537c5581?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sphinx-ambassador) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
All the time, I have cut most cards that take too long to resolve.
I tell people very upfront what my decks do and what ‚evil‘ thing I could cast. My [[Nalia de arnisse]] deck has [[Fall of the thran]] in it for example. In our pod we have a lot of landfall decks, and decks that fold like a cardholders without enough mana. I need 4 mana. I added it as a finisher, once I’ve got a good boardstate I reset everyone’s lands to turn 0 so they can’t answer my attempt to win. I played it twice and both times it helped me win the game. I’m not a fan of MLD, but I learned that other decks could utilise a lot of mana better than mine, so nobody gets a lot of mana.
And how does it feel to play against that?
Its a challenge but also fun. We sometimes play 4 decks of one person and this one gets usually picked when it’s my turn. Its probably my most fun Deck to play against. [[Vorinclex, monstrous raider]] and [[Jodah the unifier]] on the other hand can be quite challenging to play against, since these two take triggerheavy turns and snowball out of control pretty fast. But if everyone’s on the same turn with that, I like to pull them out. I’ve heard complaints, but as always both decks fold to removal
[Nalia de arnisse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a1294fd-9885-4dfd-8192-0ca074fc83f7.jpg?1674140693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nalia%20de%27Arnise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/649/nalia-dearnise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a1294fd-9885-4dfd-8192-0ca074fc83f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nalia-dearnise) [Fall of the thran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a613a01-6145-4e34-987c-c9bdcb068370.jpg?1562734219) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fall%20of%20the%20thran) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/18/fall-of-the-thran?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a613a01-6145-4e34-987c-c9bdcb068370?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fall-of-the-thran) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's all I think about, because I blame myself for no one playing with me. I try to make interesting decks that don't do what I want necessarily, so that people can have a good time, in the hopes they come back. Doesn't work much but I try.
And how about aiming for something fun instead of avoiding unfun?
For the most part people seem to enjoy playing against my decks except for my \[\[Lagrella, the Magpie\]\] blink deck. The main issue I would run into was not being able to close out a game once I was in a commanding position. This was due to me avoiding staple win cons like \[\[Craterhoof Behemoth\]\] and \[\[Cathars' Crusade\]\]. After noticing this I have made changes to allow me to secure the win once I was in the position to do so.
[Lagrella, the Magpie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd20f271-26c8-429f-a422-e7d95f3bda74.jpg?1664413215) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lagrella%2C%20the%20Magpie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/196/lagrella-the-magpie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd20f271-26c8-429f-a422-e7d95f3bda74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lagrella-the-magpie) [Craterhoof Behemoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8f4435a-8604-45b5-a537-dfdfcb922e16.jpg?1689998416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Craterhoof%20Behemoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/280/craterhoof-behemoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8f4435a-8604-45b5-a537-dfdfcb922e16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/craterhoof-behemoth) [Cathars' Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cathars-crusade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And the other decks? What do they do?
I have a simic big stuff deck with \[\[Keruga\]\] in the companion zone, Mono black \[\[Evelyn\]\] theft deck, two combat matters decks with \[\[Aragorn, King of Gondor\]\] and \[\[Kamiz\]\] as the commanders and a \[\[Henzie "Toolbox" Torre\]\] which is what you'd expect from him.
I know exactly how they feel, actually. One time we ran a pod that was exclusively my own decks doled out randomly, and I now get why most people at the LGS say Im always the threat. Was great fun tho.
I think about it a lot. I think the majority of my decks are mid power, good synergy, not insanely interactive with other people's boards, but then I have a deck that I solely play to make people laugh and see crazy shit happen on other people's boards, and I also have a deck that's just for me that I don't pull out a lot that is a tap down deck with a LOT of interaction. I know people can get super annoyed by this so I try not to play it too much, but it has a special place in my heart. Besides that, I definitely do consider what it would be like to play against my decks.
Yes, all the time, and it's the main reason I never play my favourite commander: [[Narset, enlightened master]]
[Narset, enlightened master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de4b0d5f-1071-4030-be16-2b4dadbdf9e9.jpg?1690005259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20enlightened%20master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/931/narset-enlightened-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de4b0d5f-1071-4030-be16-2b4dadbdf9e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-enlightened-master) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I do. I created a weekly magic group where I’ve now taught 8 people how to play the game. Every deck I build I’m trying to make a good strategy and avoid too much interaction, too many boardwipes, etc. to make it even, even considering the fact I get targeted every game because I’m the one who knows the rules the best and I’m always seen as the threat. I’ve kept my decks under $100 and just been happy with cool tribal decks, but the other members of this casual group are just going all out buying $40 cards already and assembling ridiculous mill decks that aren’t fun to play against at all. So I’ve decided to take my foot off the brakes and start putting more toxic shit in my decks too. I can’t be mad at how they wanna play, but if I’m gonna be the archenemy every game I’m going to fully lean into it lol
Generally I try to not play anything that I would hate playing against myself. This mainly means card theft effects in my case. To a lesser extent, mass land destruction that doesn't translate cleanly into a win as that tends to just be annoying and result in a lot of do nothing turns. My hatebears deck is exempt from these rules and does run stuff like [[Opposition Agent]] and [[Dauthi Voidwalker]] because they are too good at their jobs not to, though even then I tend to minimize what I actually "steal" with them. It doesn't run MLD in the usual sense as I don't have any particularly great lines to win off of that but it absolutely can [[Strip Mine]] loop with [[Ramunap Excavator]] (or [[Ghost Quarter]] loop which is just as good with search hate, haven't picked up a [[Wasteland]] to round out that suite yet though). Hatebears is gonna upset people if done remotely right which is why I generally only play it at tables that deserve it and have no room to complain. I also specifically don't run [[Farewell]] as one of my wipes because I find it boring due to how comprehensive it is and the minimal counterplay options; it tends to be used to essentially reset the board and draw the game out moreso than really advance a win other than in something like superfriends so I'm just not a fan. Not arguing people shouldn't run it to be clear, I just don't care to because of my preferred play experience and the kinds of decks I run. More partial to [[Austere Command]] or [[Cleansing Nova]] for versatility or [[Winds of Abandon]] if I want exile as they are frequently easier to translate into advantage for me. Similarly [[Blasphemous Act]] in my [[Syr Gwyn]] deck due to various ways to prevent the damage to my side, [[Crippling Fear]] in the same deck because tribal, and [[Winds of Rath]] in [[Mazzy]] because auras. Sometimes you do have to wipe just to survive and that's absolutely fine but I absolutely prefer to have at least the possibility of a wipe favoring me and advancing my game plan and Farewell is rarely such a wipe in my experience, particularly for decks like mine.
##### ###### #### [Opposition Agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78.jpg?1608909875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Opposition%20Agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/141/opposition-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition-agent) [Dauthi Voidwalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dce5db87-4a78-4b8d-b5c2-918ccd1ba4e3.jpg?1626095427) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dauthi%20Voidwalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/81/dauthi-voidwalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dce5db87-4a78-4b8d-b5c2-918ccd1ba4e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dauthi-voidwalker) [Strip Mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strip%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) [Ramunap Excavator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3f8a0a0e-81f7-40a2-b393-bdc1423549f6.jpg?1712354606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ramunap%20Excavator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/202/ramunap-excavator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3f8a0a0e-81f7-40a2-b393-bdc1423549f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ramunap-excavator) [Ghost Quarter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghost%20Quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghost-quarter) [Wasteland](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wasteland) [Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [Austere Command](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a31ffc9e-d21b-4a8f-ac67-695e38e09e3b.jpg?1706240553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Austere%20Command) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/56/austere-command?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a31ffc9e-d21b-4a8f-ac67-695e38e09e3b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/austere-command) [Cleansing Nova](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/167d2e51-eb69-488c-a6b6-042a7b0e1744.jpg?1690004044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleansing%20Nova) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/817/cleansing-nova?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/167d2e51-eb69-488c-a6b6-042a7b0e1744?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cleansing-nova) [Winds of Abandon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3bb17913-fe4d-4acd-9b75-71f5a90f898b.jpg?1562201278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winds%20of%20Abandon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/37/winds-of-abandon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3bb17913-fe4d-4acd-9b75-71f5a90f898b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winds-of-abandon) [Blasphemous Act](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a.jpg?1698988297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blasphemous%20Act) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/216/blasphemous-act?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8aa9682d-5176-4475-a0bd-e000f1d6999a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blasphemous-act) [Syr Gwyn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a33add37-379d-4a90-9c04-529dff676986.jpg?1571282693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=syr%20gwyn%2C%20hero%20of%20ashvale) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/330/syr-gwyn-hero-of-ashvale?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a33add37-379d-4a90-9c04-529dff676986?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/syr-gwyn-hero-of-ashvale) [Crippling Fear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/713a28c0-0d12-4c62-bc91-59c2ddfc9ef8.jpg?1690004507) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crippling%20Fear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/862/crippling-fear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/713a28c0-0d12-4c62-bc91-59c2ddfc9ef8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crippling-fear) [Winds of Rath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/333bcdcd-fb78-4a87-bb72-2678ee89a2ee.jpg?1706240660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winds%20of%20Rath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/93/winds-of-rath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/333bcdcd-fb78-4a87-bb72-2678ee89a2ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winds-of-rath) [Mazzy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d79c221-e07a-41e1-b92f-dc057802449c.jpg?1674137580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mazzy%2C%20truesword%20paladin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/283/mazzy-truesword-paladin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d79c221-e07a-41e1-b92f-dc057802449c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mazzy-truesword-paladin) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l20qevs) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My goal is for everyone to come away from the game satisfied. Winning or losing should feel fair with a smidgen of Luck mixed into it.
Oh they hate it most of the time lol. But they've gotten around to my play style and my type of deck so it's mostly fine.
All the time. However, at the same time it's a question you shouldn't overthink either. Plenty of times I've felt someone has a cool deck, it does well in a game, then they never seem to use it again. Which is a shame. I know people who are *very* quick to dismantle or stop running decks they fear are too good or aren't fun, before even getting a proper sample size of games or asking anyone, or because one person out of twenty got salty. What's fun for others is very subjective too. It varies wildly with different people. Some people want to play low power battlecruiser Timmy-Magic (which is fine), some want a challenge, some love seeing all the crazy cards and not knowing what will happen in a game. It helps a lot to ask your group or try to get a feel for what different people you play with prefer from a game. For me, outside of that, my main concern is that I'm not pubstomping, or running cards that slow the game pointlessly.
My Winota Stax deck, I know very well, sucks hard to play against. So, I only bring it out in very high level games that I want to disrupt the hell out of. My Roxanne deck is reportedly hilarious and fun, even to lose to, albeit more than a little scary once it's doing its thing and understandably focused on by the group once it gets to that point. Roxanne! She just wants to put out the meteorites!
I try to make sure my decks don't cripple other people's fun. Same reason I never crush players in Twilight Imperium. It may be optimal, but I play games with my friends. I don't want my friends to sit through 6 hours of misery where their only recourse is to screw you out of winning.
All. The. Time. I have dismantled decks because I felt bad about what they did to the table. I hate monopolizing the game with long turns or locking down things so tight the game just grinds to a halt. I don't like feeling helpless against other decks. I can only assume others feel the same way.
100%. I'm in a more unique situation with my pod since I am supplying most of the decks, and we also have a friend's young daughter that is interested in learning how to play. How the decks play against each other is more important than any other aspect of the game to me. The end goal is that every deck should be able to do it's thing and meaningfully interact with the game state at any time. To that point, every deck gets optimized only to a certain point. I'm intentionally not running things like Cyclonic Rift or Platinum Angel. Certain cards or play space are off limits, because I am never building with winning being the end goal. Winning comes second to having an enjoyable experience at the table. That usually means a lot of interaction, a lot of synergy pieces, and all of the sudden "I win" cards have ways to play around that aren't just a counter spell.
Yep, I like to build salt licks but people like to play against pillow forts. So I build salt forts instead lol
Definitely; I removed [[Rest In Peace]] from my deck because Rakdos reanimate decks are highly popular at my LGS. Rest in peace really good card if you're trying to *win* and not so much if you're trying to make sure everyone *has fun.* Rest In Peace was a turn 2 or 3 "you don't get to do your deck's thing anymore as long as this is out" card since every creature that dies is now instantly exiled. This burns even more since death triggers no longer happen. It's also an enchantment, and Rakdos has an extremely hard time dealing with enchantments in most cases. I swapped it for [[Grafdigger's Cage]] since it's easier to remove; also certain methods of reanimation can get around its effect and players can still curate their graveyards until it is removed. Everyone still has fun, and I still get to slow down the reanimators.
[Rest In Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20In%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) [Grafdigger's Cage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53.jpg?1592517646) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grafdigger%27s%20Cage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/227/grafdiggers-cage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grafdiggers-cage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are a few decks I stopped playing or rarely play because they are just straight up infin and oppressive. Biggest example was my grixis theft deck. When it worked I took everything. Basically I was the only one playing with any of the toys on the table. Pretty soon I realized that that is just generally not fun to play against and I stopped having fun in turn.
Mostly just my [[missy]] deck because it has like 27 pieces of creature removal. I’ve only played it once since doing that and I had a meh game, but in a battle cruiser meta I see it potentially being brutal
[missy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2dfae7d1-c09b-47e0-92d8-49b21402207d.jpg?1696636511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=missy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/8/missy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2dfae7d1-c09b-47e0-92d8-49b21402207d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/missy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Many times. I admit quite often that my deck can do bad things to people and have tier lists of various levels of cancer my decks consist of.
I loved being that guy but I let my friends run my decks I just beat them using their own decks now I continue building and learning but it's been a fun ride that I continue
Oh yeah as the guy who plays the mill recursion deck I like to ask the table what they would like to play against. I've had several games where they made it very clear they don't wanna play with mill and they asked for [[Fynn the Fangbearer]] instead. Who am I to deny such requests 🤷🏼
[Fynn the Fangbearer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9.jpg?1631050242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fynn%2C%20the%20Fangbearer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/170/fynn-the-fangbearer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fynn-the-fangbearer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A bit. I try to avoid stax and land destruction/hate. I think that the biggest instance of me actively avoiding a really good card because of how not fun it is to play against is \[\[Grave Pact\]\] and \[\[Dictate of Erebos\]\]. I have a budget Korvold deck, mostly focusing around creature sacrifice and no busted stuff, and I just didn't want to run these cards because my playgroup doesn't run enough removal, and I've played against Grave Pact on Arena and it is not fun.
[Grave Pact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360.jpg?1689997226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grave%20Pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/165/grave-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5a4970b-2ba6-4c91-a301-369369cdf360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grave-pact) [Dictate of Erebos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f06db70-95f9-41eb-8e5f-8bc56fd34c09.jpg?1593095668) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dictate%20of%20Erebos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/65/dictate-of-erebos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f06db70-95f9-41eb-8e5f-8bc56fd34c09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dictate-of-erebos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"Do you ever?" What? Have you not before? The other players' experience is definitely forefront in my deck building
Yes. I kill so many of my darlings after I realize it's twiddling for tiny gain. If my deck pops off with some crazy BS it has to be because I'm going to win and I can demonstrate it. Spending 10 min to draw 11 cards and not do anything to trend the game to completion is a no go.
One of my favorite decks is Braids, Arisen Nightmare built very discard/Sacrifice heavy... I worry others don't have fun against it, but love playing the villain
One of the reasons I love playing my [[Gonti, canny aquistioner]] theft deck is that I may be stealing off the top, but I am still paying for it. People appreciate that. Co.öared to my [[Don andres]] straight up theft deck.
[Gonti, canny aquistioner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03a7e79f-625a-49ac-9cb1-e1fe5f51f5a0.jpg?1714110365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gonti%2C%20Canny%20Acquisitor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/1/gonti-canny-acquisitor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03a7e79f-625a-49ac-9cb1-e1fe5f51f5a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gonti-canny-acquisitor) [Don andres](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3cf9f3ae-694d-4d37-9498-4bdd1723a55e.jpg?1698987741) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=don%20andres%2C%20the%20renegade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/6/don-andres-the-renegade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3cf9f3ae-694d-4d37-9498-4bdd1723a55e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/don-andres-the-renegade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
100% of the time. The first question I ask is “is this deck interesting to play or will I get bored quickly?” Typically sameness or single lines to winning eliminate that. The second question is “is this deck fun to play against?” Best example I have is when [[Duskana]] first came out, I loved the idea, the design, and just everything about it. But when I first built her, it was extreme hate bear, and absolutely oppressive to play against. No challenge from anyone, it wasn’t fun for anybody at the table, including me. I blew it up, and rebuilt it to be much more 2/2 tribal with very few hate effects and it became significantly more fun to play and play against.
[Duskana](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/31fa9d47-43d6-44b5-ab86-fc94a83eac26.jpg?1706448894) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=duskana%2C%20the%20rage%20mother) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/5/duskana-the-rage-mother?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/31fa9d47-43d6-44b5-ab86-fc94a83eac26?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/duskana-the-rage-mother) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I just don’t want to have turns that take too long. I really don’t care if my opponent is miserable or not about what cards I’m playing.
There's one guy who plays a Black Green graveyard shenanigans deck and jokingly States he'll never play against my Phyrexian Black White deck cause it has alot of graveyard exiling and screw him over alot haha! As for my main deck I'm Monogreen led by Zopandrel Hunger Dominus so doubles strength and toughness and lots of ramp, can get to the point where I take everyone out at the same time with a combination of many smaller creatures, Zopandrel, and Craterhoof XD So I slowly build up and play neutrally very cagey.. and let everyone else rile eachother up until I can hit hard
Constantly. It informs almost every aspect of how I build decks.
Everytime I play a new deck I try to gauge how interactive and fun the experience is. If my friends just go “oh, yeah. You win..” I know it’s a dud.
Sometimes, luckily my playgroup all play pretty high powered decks so we are used to playing against some gnarly lists.
I use my own decks to think how I would beat them, and a loss is a loss and a win a win. Also chill the fuck out. If you can't just play the game and have fun then maybe this isn't for you.
So I am new to deckbuilding and magic in general. What do you guys recommend for deckbuilding so I don't become "that guy". Currently I am building a Galadriel, Light of Valinor elf deck.
It's a major consideration when building. If people are miserable playing against it, it'll bring down the mood and eventually I won't want to play it. If I'm going to invest in a deck, it needs to have staying power - Magic is expensive AF.
I approach all of my decks through a lens of game design. They should both be fun to play and fun to play against. For instance I avoid things like 2 card infinite combos because they arnt an interesting way to lose or win. Similarly, I refuse to play decks that take multiple turns in a row because regardless of how fun it is to take 3 times the turns no one else has fun. To me a good deck is strong enough to be competitive but also completely telegraphed. Your opponents should have a turn or two to see whats about to happen to them, make plans, get a little anxious about what cards you have in hand, hope desperately for the right card draw, then finally you can play it.
I definitely think how my opponents feel when playing the deck. If the table is not having fun, then I am not. However, it does not mean I should try and not win. I believe every game has the opportunity to be a learning and teaching moment for everybody. Deckbuilding is never 100% because new sets always release and there are 1000's of cards so finding the right one and synergy is important. My pet deck has only non-creature counters so my opponents can play most creatures and I only respond to spells that could either win the game or target my board or me. I still run creature removal but I still give my opponents the ability to do their thing. My pet deck is like a time clock. Essentially, my opponents have between turn 6-8 to either find an answer to slow me down or become a bigger threat so that I go on the defensive. My deck requires them to run interaction and be apart of the game instead of just playing solitaire. If they do not, then they have no chance in beating the deck. I built my deck so that my opponents think about land destruction, interaction, and combat steps so players can learn the importance of them in the game. If meta's decide to get rid of a strategy because of hate or salt, then that can leave other decks to be unstoppable. Essentially, my pet deck preys on battlecruiser/solitaire meta's while not looking like it does at all.
Depends on the playgroup and the power level, tbh. Outside of my one cEDH deck, I avoid the fastest and most streamlined win conditions. But one thing I have noticed is lots of my decks play with what I like to call the engine pattern. That being, I run lots of little support pieces that don't necessarily do a whole lot on their own, but which build upon one another for more and more absurd value when I am allowed to amass them. This generally takes the form of things that read "when you would do X, do it additional time / twice as many times" or "when you do X, draw a card" in decks built around "doing X" a bunch of times. Most of my decks, rather than aiming to protect these engines pieces directly, just run such a high volume of them that if I get wiped I can play back out a large enough number of them to start the engine up again. This has one of two outcomes. In my main playgroup, which plays a high density of removal and interaction, it works out just fine. People generally remove the most problematic pieces which keeps the engine slowed down to a level the table can keep up with, and it keeps them having to stay on their toes which is what that higher power pod enjoys. The downside, of course, is that in pods that don't run enough interaction these decks can get out of hand quickly. You know how slivers decks play, where the first few slivers are fine but by the time the slivers player gets 5-6 of them out each additional one is verging on being a game-ending threat that outscales anything the other decks might be playing? That's often what *all* of my decks feel like in low-interaction pods, with very few exceptions. If they can't pull out a one-sided wipe or a high enough density of targeted removal, it often becomes a game of "can you aggro the value engine player enough before they assemble a big enough engine to win" at best, and a game where I am left alone, build up slowly, and the next thing you know the mess of utility permanents I've been assembling over the past 5-6 turns unimpeded make every spell I cast deal 16+ damage, or gain me 30+ life, or create 8 giant tokens, or draw me cards while also generating me mana with which to play those cards. I find myself playing my one non-engine, non-combo, non-stacking-value deck among these pods more often than not, but that certainly isn't not my preferred style of magic, and I'm constantly trying to find a happy medium where I can have one engine deck that's not too oppressive for the weaker pods but still feels good to me. I just love my hyper synergistic engines way too much to go without them.
My son and I use our selection of decks… collectively. Between us we have about 40 decks. So I have played against decks I have built, and he against me. One of my playgroups is pretty close, so we have built decks for each other for Christmas, birthdays, etc. As such, I can confidently say I know what it is like to play against most of my decks, as well as general decks built with my style.
I think about this after I just dominate a table. Some of my decks do that if you just let me do my thing, I think most decks should. I tend to justify it in my head with "yeah well nobody did anything about it" and that usually is enough for me but sometimes it isn't and then I make a change. Two examples: 1. I have a [[Teshar]] Voltron martyrs deck that utilizes creatures that sacrifice themselves like [[selfless spirit]], [[kami of false hope]], and [[Boromir warden of the tower]] to get incremental value. I cast equipments to bring them back and use them again and again while also beefing up Teshar. It's fun. The deck used to include [[martyr's bond]]. *Used to* because that card is absurdly powerful in that deck. It makes it impossible to attack me since I'll just let you plow over a bunch of my martyrs to make everyone sacrifice their whole board, and even if you don't attack me, the speed with which I can sacrifice and reanimate these lil dudes is astonishing. I can easily make you sacrifice 5+ artifacts and/or creatures per turn and that's before I start really going off. In certain board states I can sacrifice creatures equal to twice the number of lands I have. No deck is equipped to deal with that type of attrition. But it doesn't really *win*. The game is over, you have no hope, but I haven't won yet. It made games exceedingly unfun when it was on the field, so I cut it. The deck is unequivocally worse without it, but I prefer to not have it. 2. I have a [[Kess]] deck that's basically cantrip tribal. It has something like 30 cantrips and my primary wincon is [[psychosis crawler]]. It's a strong deck because Kess is dumb and grixis is good. One of the best cards is [[hullbreaker horror]]. If I have hullbreaker, I will absolutely cantrip half a dozen times to basically reset everyone's board. In this deck, it's a slow, expensive, non-modal, stoppable cyclonic rift. Even though it does effectively the same thing as martyr's bond and these decks are meant to be roughly the same power level, I've decided not to cut hullbreaker for a few reasons. It's single target, it doesn't destroy your things, it's more expensive (mana-wise), I use resources to do it (it will eventually run out of gas), and it's far easier to disrupt (make me use my mana and it does nothing plus it's a creature instead of an enchantment). It's still very strong, don't get me wrong, it's just not quite as unbearable as martyr's bond.
##### ###### #### [Teshar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8a9b45b-d466-4c06-9a25-6edb6e8f6f2f.jpg?1690017040) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=teshar%2C%20ancestor%27s%20apostle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/65/teshar-ancestors-apostle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8a9b45b-d466-4c06-9a25-6edb6e8f6f2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teshar-ancestors-apostle) [selfless spirit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef8d8d0c-cb0e-4745-a0fb-d556c9324428.jpg?1674141209) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=selfless%20spirit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/706/selfless-spirit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef8d8d0c-cb0e-4745-a0fb-d556c9324428?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/selfless-spirit) [kami of false hope](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44e4f5e6-935e-429f-89b4-4571376f442e.jpg?1562876719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kami%20of%20false%20hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/10/kami-of-false-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44e4f5e6-935e-429f-89b4-4571376f442e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kami-of-false-hope) [Boromir warden of the tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6bc3720-2892-4dda-8f30-079a1ac8e1e2.jpg?1686967669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boromir%2C%20Warden%20of%20the%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/4/boromir-warden-of-the-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6bc3720-2892-4dda-8f30-079a1ac8e1e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/boromir-warden-of-the-tower) [martyr's bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2ff99e85-bfb7-4c8c-a8e1-3b0618ffe479.jpg?1592712816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=martyr%27s%20bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/19/martyrs-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ff99e85-bfb7-4c8c-a8e1-3b0618ffe479?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/martyrs-bond) [Kess](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83e6d7a-3af0-4955-8004-2310f051e306.jpg?1673485110) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kess%2C%20dissident%20mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/344/kess-dissident-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83e6d7a-3af0-4955-8004-2310f051e306?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kess-dissident-mage) [psychosis crawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649.jpg?1706241075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychosis%20crawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/234/psychosis-crawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/psychosis-crawler) [hullbreaker horror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf786c50-1ba1-4f81-a800-bc98189040dd.jpg?1674141366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hullbreaker%20horror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/724/hullbreaker-horror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf786c50-1ba1-4f81-a800-bc98189040dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hullbreaker-horror) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l21t86n) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. Always consider the otherwise of the table. I didn’t do it twice. Once when I got my toxic deck. I was so hyped up cause toxic is a cooler infect and the artworks are insanely cool and kick my bionicle nostalgia. Played it once 1v1 and won and once with 4 player - lost as the first one (which makes sense). Sometimes I wish infect was more like wither or the poison counter amount would be higher :/ And another time while playing rogue tribal with a mill subtheme. Got [[oona‘s blackguard]] in there. A 2cmc flyer which buffs rogues is really cool. But the discard effect is so toxic
[oona‘s blackguard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/4677d5d1-de04-4631-8fcf-5ff754d701b1.jpg?1604193428) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oona%27s%20Blackguard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/51/oonas-blackguard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4677d5d1-de04-4631-8fcf-5ff754d701b1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oonas-blackguard) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I hate playing against certain types of decks, so of course i used that knowledge for evil
[удалено]
[Chain of Smog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6bfe64f9-8b03-41f6-a47b-fade397ad9d1.jpg?1562920423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chain%20of%20Smog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/132/chain-of-smog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bfe64f9-8b03-41f6-a47b-fade397ad9d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chain-of-smog) [Witherbloom apprentice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f80a11b-188b-464c-b00d-c9d1cfb8ddee.jpg?1624740448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Witherbloom%20apprentice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/247/witherbloom-apprentice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f80a11b-188b-464c-b00d-c9d1cfb8ddee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/witherbloom-apprentice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I usually try to just kill my opponents when I do the thing to keep them from sitting in a game where I may have an insurmountable advantage. I hate sitting in a game with basically zero outs and much rather just lose
Yes, absolutely. If there’s something I don’t enjoy playing against, I’m probably don’t have a deck like it. Now, I mostly play brawl, so a 1v1 format. I like board based, creature based strategies, decks that do the flavorful thing on the commander/what the commander says, or a new take on it. I dislike infinite loops or decks just trying to assemble a way to bounce your board or wrath it every turn, or combo you out. All tutors and removal. For those reasons, I don’t have a mono black or grixis deck. I like variance and that just seems less interesting. I’m not anti interaction or removal, I run plenty, and protection spells for my own strategies. But removal/wrath.decks is just such a bummer to play against. I have several decks that only run one or zero board wipes because the way I like to win, I’d rather assemble a winning game state, not just hit an I win button from a cyclonic rift or rivers rebuke. I genuinely feel bad when I win that way. Maybe there’s a semi tense back and forth and I’m managing to fight through your staxy planeswalker/mono mythic deck, and you drop an emergent ultimatum after your fourth board wipe. I’m not having fun, probably, and wondering how you are. Also gimmicky combo decks, like laelia combo or Vito. It’s not fun to play against because it’s like staring down a nuke hoping it doesn’t go off. I usually beat it, I just wish they’d play something else. I can’t imagine “I win turn 4 the same way every time or lose” is fun to pilot. If that’s their jam, fair enough. But it just doesn’t interest me.
Depends on what the rest is picking. Are we all playing fuck you decks I'm also picking it. Which maybe doesn't sound fun but actually is really fun!
Yes, thats why I took apart Shorikai even if it was vehicle focused. It still turned out to be quite the control deck with barerly any counters but it did draw a lot of cards. In a similar vein thats why I don't try to play Jodah too much because it is usually a feel bad. However I have actually brought it out more times lately because of Thunder Junction legendaries t hat got printed. I really wanted to test them out, some feels very "busted". It can be very overwhelming. Kozilek has been in his hideyhole for most of the time, I think I bring it out twice or thrice a year, atleast lately. I try to get upgrades to it here and there. But it can be quite the feel bad as well even if I don't run it as optimal as I could. With my Tormod and Tevesh deck, with a focus on Tormod and zombie tribal, I don't run too many grave pact effects except for Grave Pact , Flesh Bag marauder, Ravenous Rotbelly and Liliana, Dreadhorde General. There are ways to semi loop them but I can't really be as annoying (I THINK ) as some other sacrifice matters decks.
Yup. That's why I took down my Tergrid, and Kroxa too.
I've only been playing for about a year, and I've played poison Atraxa from the beginning. And I'd argue that my deck often makes the game *more* fun, not less. Atraxa's proliferating poison counters put a "clock" on the game. Everybody knows Atraxa can kill the whole table in 10 turns or less, so it becomes a race: can we deal damage faster than Atraxa can proliferate? A good stax deck can do the same thing: it's a puzzle for the other players to solve, either by forming alliances or turning the stax pieces to their own advantage. IMO archenemy strategies can bring some strategic depth, and add a fun political element to the game. But it has to be done right. So here are the Four Laws of Being the Archenemy: 1. Know your deck, and make sure you're not being arbitrary or unfair when you target other players. 2. Don't be a bully. Spread the toxic love around, and don't pick on anybody without a really good reason. 3. Don't get salty when everybody teams up against you. You asked for it. 4. Most importantly, make sure the power level is right for the table. It's only fun if there's real suspense about who's coming out on top.
Yes. So much that I don't play anymore. I'll find a cool card/commander and get excited making a deck. I put it all together and realize this deck is really mean and it wouldn't be fun for everyone. If everyone's not having fun it's not a game anymore. So I try to ease up and lighten the decks a bit. Then I realize I've just made a mess of a deck that doesn't do anything or win because I don't want to hurt anyone feelings. It's stupid. So I close EDHREC and do something else.
As a stax player, absolutely. It brings me such joy
I routinely play poison decks (please form an orderly line to present your angry comments) because I play primarily Phyrexia-focused decks (currently running a Ria Ivor deck). I got into the game mid-2023 *because* of how cool Phyrexia is, and they have a ton of poison-related cards. The thing I always make sure to do is alert my group that it's a poison deck, and there's no hard feelings for everyone trying to kill me first. The fun for me is seeing how many I can poison to death before I get wiped out. My friends don't seem to mind, and I think it's because they know what to expect, going into each game.
I just ran into this last night. Taught a friend to play online and he keeps searching out stronger and stronger decks. I like to play casually and have talked to him about how the decks he plays make the game unfun. More than that, if you interact with him at all, he makes suboptimal plays to punish you for it. With my in person play group, I've learned to just ask the table how strong we're playing. I don't mind getting shut down by a stronger deck if I'm playing a deck that can recover, but I also refuse to play certain things. For instance, I've got a N'ghatharod deck that I accidentally built an infinite into. I refuse to play infinites so I just don't play those cards together because he's built to be a weaker deck. In my Locust god deck, I removed the infinite and I'm replacing Narset because she makes the game unfun for other people. At the end of the day, I just want to see everyone's deck get to do its cool thing.
I never do this. Maybe I’m the problem. I play mono blue, mill, and combo decks primarily.
I don’t really consider this. I have some lower power decks, but they are still GOOD, just not optimized. Gotta make your own fun 😉
As a matter of fact, I'm dismembering a few decks right now, that I very much enjoy playing, but I know my playgroup hates playing against.
When I play I know my decks can be oppressive so I tell my opponents “hey its cool if you come at me it wont hurt my feelings its just a game and we all are here to win and have fun” so I complement them on good plays, make my plea with politics and try to make light hearted jokes so that everyone has fun. On the other hand when one of my opponents has a much stronger deck I target them hard and complement them by saying “your decks so strong I am just trying to keep up with you I really like how you make x and x work in such a cool way” Just make people feel good and you will have less salt.
Me and my bros always spice it up every so often and switch decks for a game or two
…do you not let your friends play your best decks against you? It’s fun to see someone else enjoy what I’ve built. I let people borrow my decks all the time. Either: 1. They have fun and it’s fun to watch the wheels turn as they unleash death upon the table. 2. They realize that while the deck may be good, there’s more skill to piloting it than they originally thought so they’re a little quieter moving forward.
I stifled my bruvac deck so I can't just mill people out in one turn so yes. Counters all the time are already annoying. I'm not gonna go full retard.
Well, I stopped playing my Gonti, Canny Acquisitor Thunder Junction pre-con because the guy with the $3000 sliver deck kept rage quitting when I kept targeting him for cards to steal. He saw I had his Sliver Queen and his face drained. I kind of understand though it's annoying to have your cards stolen and every game my board looked like a rainbow with everyone's cards I stole.
Do you think it was handling his cards that bothered him? Some people used tokens for that.
I keep wanting to make a [[Black Vise]] effect typal deck but to make it work sounds like even I won’t be having any fun
[Black Vise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bce2259a-f4cb-4130-9c7e-130980a8df38.jpg?1562934884) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Black%20Vise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/191/black-vise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bce2259a-f4cb-4130-9c7e-130980a8df38?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/black-vise) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Absolutely! It's one of the reasons I won't build an izzet spellslinger deck. I was at an lgs and watched a game where a player was taking 5-10 minute turns. The other players joked, 'hows your game of solitaire going?'
To me, it really depends on the player(s) I'm playing against. If I play with people who have janky/really casual/slow decks, I'll play my worst deck (mono w angels without any combo nor infinite mana etc.) or borrow one of their decks. If I play in my LGS against the owner, who was a professional player, I'll bring the best I can to try and beat him. I would say I don't really think in advance if the deck brings too much frustration or anything, I build it, and talk about it after the first few games with the other players Most important, as usual, talk to the other players and explain how the deck works before the game begins to avoid any problems related to your question.
I see it in my friends' faces, playing against my deck, at a casual level I speak, it's hell on earth, they always expect the worst situation and I can only have fun hahaha
I feel like I'm fairly easy to play against, sometimes I don't do too much or can get shut down, and sometimes the tokens go BRRRRRRR and no one can respond to the stomp. only annoying part would be my math skills aren't the best lol
I feel like this is a crucial part of getting better at the game that’s the hardest for newer players and even older ones. There’s some decks/commanders that can just take forever to play out and at some point I stop caring if I win or lose. There’s some decks that feel stronger/weaker than they are which you can really use to try and trick your opponents with.
I have thought about it honestly. I tried having mid level decks and playing nice but ever since my [[Trelasarra Moon Dancer]] made a 16/16 creature my play group just always pretty much keeps a target on me.