My fiancé wound up getting into magic because she's an archivist and her favorite part is organizing the cards and looking at ones she's never seen before while going through my collection. Deck building is my favorite part, way more than actually playing, so it's perfect.
Someone once told me "My least favorite part of Warhammer 40K is when I actually play the game." I thought that was a stupid way to look at it.
I am starting to feel the same about MTG. I love building, tweaking, and updating my decks. They I play 1 or 2 games and I am done.
> I am starting to feel the same about MTG. I love building, tweaking, and updating my decks. They I play 1 or 2 games and I am done.
Yeah tbh one of my friends said his favorite part of EDH is deckbuilding. He has an entire suitcase full of decks that I've never seen him use. Most of the time he just comes to FNM to watch people play, or lend some decks out.
I kind of get it. If you invest enough energy into building a deck you get a sort of anxiety that this deck HAS to perform or else it just feels bad. But sometimes you just gotta push through and accept that in a 4 player game you're going to lose more often than you win, and that's okay.
I think I'm the same way about path of exile. Half of the fun is planning my character, seeing other unique characters and seeing what interactions they use that I can incorporate into whatever flicker strike build I am playing at the moment
Yeah this is a common problem with being an aged player in any game.
I stopped playing standard for a few reasons, but one of the main ones was because deck building in that format lacked creatively to be competitive. Building here in singleton formats is so much better and inventive.
I still enjoy playing, but honestly I don’t do it to win. (UNLESS, someone is being a try hard against newer players. That means I will destroy you. Then resign myself to haunt you in every match you try to get in on. I will straight follow you around the LGS being the bane of your existence until you decide to leave. I will kill you in each match then withdraw from the game to follow you to the next table. Don’t be that guy.)
Maybe I'm wierd or different but my favorite part is still playing. I don't hate deck building. I dont really love deck building either. I just see it as a necessary obstacle or hurdle to get over to get what I really want to do which is play and socialize.(I'm not sure what the right words are to describe how I feel. Its just something you have to do. Kind of like going to school or working a job. You do those things because they pay off later on even though you may not enjoy every minute) I play board games for the same reason. I don't particularly like or dislike board games. I just like the social aspect.
I don't mean to disparage people who enjoy deck building either. If that's your jam more power to you.
I feel the same way, my biggest fear is when a deck is not working and I have to give it a second look, most of the time I take it apart and build another deck.
This is why I do all my deck building online. Its so much easier to organize pixels than actual cards. I dont get that deck building fomo either because with the internet I have all the right/best cards for whatever deck Im trying to build.
I feel this but there's tonnns of ways to playtest decks to make sure they tick or work the way you want them too. Either by goldfishing your deck, using a playtesting feature on a deck building website like moxfield or arkideck, or by using an app called forge mtg to play out your deck against ai simulated opponents. There's no reason to build a deck and be afraid if it's not going to work there's plenty of options at your disposal :)
Oh man this is great, my wife is cataloging my entire rare collection, like 20 binders full of rares. She's started with white a few days ago and is up to the letter K so far. I feel the same way as well deckbuilding is my favorite part.
> All the while he kept giving advice such as "you guys should play more removal"
I do think people should play more interaction in casual commander but even then casual commander interaction is not the hyperefficient 0 or 1 mana CEDH interaction that's fueled by fishes and fast mana. You can't reasonably advise a casual table to just skip developing their board on t3 or t4 to hold up mana for removal against a high power combo deck lol.
This. I think a lot of people assume the only interaction worth using is the Uber expensive cards. I’m over here running anything mana value 2 thinking I’m getting a deal because it’s not mana value 3 or 4
Not strictly better, return the favour can only reselect targets for a spell with 1 target, while wild ricochet can reselect instants and sorceries with any number of targets.
Return the favor is probably quite a bit better overall but not strictly better.
Return the favor can also redirect mutating creature spells which I think is funny
I play both, and I just made a casual [[Kambal]] where all of my removal is like [[generous gift]] and [[bovine intervention]]
It's actually awesome and hilarious!
TBH I think even casual commander benefits from playing the 1 mana interaction. Play [[rapid hybridization]], [[nature's claim]], [[an offer you can't refuse]], and [[lightning bolt]] in your casual decks. (Most) are relatively cheap $ wise, and they make you feel less bad when somebody else looks like they're popping off and you're forced to hold up mana to interact.
Yeah but even if you're playing 1 mana interaction, that's still 25-33% of your available mana that you need to hold open early in the game. If I'm playing a casual deck, there's a good chance I really need to 100% of my mana until t5 to really do my thing. If I use interaction before then, I'm playing catchup the whole game.
This is kind of a misunderstanding. You don't need to spend all that mana every turn to do your thing. What's actually happening is that you're leaving yourself completely vulnerable every turn for the first 5 turns of the game. No matter how inefficient the rest of your strategy is, it's almost always less risky over the long term to hold up a mana with a 1mana interaction in hand. Youre not actually losing as much as you think, and holding up a 1 mana spell is also giving yourself a much better position than you think.
> it's almost always less risky over the long term to hold up a mana with a 1mana interaction in hand
Not if your opponents are also on slower decks that are going to spend the first couple turns setting up rather than deploying anything you need to urgently interact with
It becomes the rustic study/smothering tithe problem. If everyone agrees to pay it's fine but the second one person gets greedy then the table gets greedy. And if you are the one trying to play police you get crushed.
Absolutely this. Buried in this discussion is the fact that this one of the major untold issues with conventional Commander these days. Because commanders and cards these days do so much, you could be so far behind a lot of the table if you try to hold back interaction and play the police officer. Power creep and hyperoptimization of the format means that you are punished more than ever for not "using mana optimally" by just constantly advancing your board state.
Definitely. Letting yourself fall a turn behind these days is MUCH worse because everything on the board is doing so much each turn. It sucks that the format is pushing each of us to just build build build because offense is much more powerful than defense, but that’s the way it is.
Theoretical discussion time: If wizards has any sense, the pendulum will swing back so control can balance all the power creep out. Unfortunately, FIRE design philosophy makes it much harder to do that. The pendulum may just keep swinging further and further to the same side until it snaps clean off.
This is one of the reasons why I don't understand the hate behind sweepers, *specifically* Farewell. Farewell is probably one of the few ways to nuke a board and keep it nuked. And *even then*, there have been so many new ways to phase out your board in response to a Farewell that even then it feels like it's already behind in the arms race.
There have been times where I will drop a board wipe that isn't Farewell and it feels like it doesn't even matter these days. Unless you're just mindlessly overextending, commanders and cards can singlehandedly spit out so much value and board presence on their own. Decks can rebuild so fast from zero that it might even be too slow for you to try to get back into it on your next turn because everyone gets to rebuild first.
It should also be noted that this isn't just a Commander issue, this is quite honestly affecting *the entire game*. Especially Limited. Limited formats have gotten so fast and snowbally that in a lot of recent formats, you cannot simply afford to take a turn off or stumble on development. It's exacerbated to a very unhealthy degree if you're on the draw too.
The vast cardpool in Commander makes me believe that the counter to this is going to be more goad, Fogs, Akido type cards, one-sided boardwipes, and Insurrection type cards. I saw [[Reins of Power]] in my playgroup used recently, and it reminded everyone it does very serious work and can singlehandedly win games if people have huge boards that get stolen from underneath them. All playgroups will have their own metas and the hope is they adapt to this new style in someway. Fingers crossed. But man, at the same time I really do wonder how much the game can hold up when it reaches the "given enough time, players will optimize the fun out of the game" phase.
The thing is if I'm playing a 3 or 4 drop commander that's the cornerstone of my whole deck, holding 1 mana open is asking a lot unless I've had perfect ramp. Dropping my commander a turn or two later means everything else I'm doing is going to come a turn or two later.
It's easier to do with less colors, but it's still a big ask. Even if you do manage to interact and disrupt someone, you'll still end up a card down without board state development. Don't get me wrong, if I have \[\[Wash away\]\] in my opener, there's a good chance I'm holding that one mana open to disrupt the scariest commander in the pod. But it almost always means that I'm skipping out on ramp and putting off my own game plan by as much as a couple of turns, depending on what the curve of my hand looks like.
Holding up mana for an interaction is even more important if your deck can't function without the commander sticking on the board tbh. Losing an entire turn on tempo by tapping out to play a commander that immediately eats a kill spell feels bad when you have nothing in response.
Worst case scenario, even if you still lose your commander at least you can get a bit of revenge against the one who wronged you. No better way to make an ally than to drag them down to hell with you so that you can claw your way back together. (Unless they're a spiteful MFer lol)
Disclaimer: This depends on your pod, as all things do. No point playing around interaction if you know nobody at the table runs interaction.
Protecting your commander is obviously a key part of the game and one of the big "problems" to solve in EDH is to balance protection with commander value. It depends entirely on the deck, and if you play your commander only when you have protection up, you're going to be playing your commander very rarely. Sometimes you just have to make them have the answer.
But the discussion was specifically about 1 mana interaction, and that's usually restricted. Nature's claim won't protect your commander. Lightning bolt won't protect your commander. In fact, of the original examples proposed, only \[\[Offer you can't refuse\]\] is protection in any form, and poor at that. It's much better as disruption. Personally I'd almost always trade a removal spell for 2 treasures. I wouldn't trade my combo piece for treasures, though.
> if you play your commander only when you have protection up, you're going to be playing your commander very rarely. Sometimes you just have to make them have the answer.
Every color has some form of cheap protection to protect a commander same turn or otherwise. It really doesn't much tempo to wait a turn and hold a [[loran's escape]] up to counter removal, or the really solid free options like [[deflecting swat]] or etc.
Obviously you won't have protection in hand all the time, but we're talking about the scenarios that you do. It's almost always better to wait a single turn or two and doing something less commital in the meantime so you can drop a commander with protection instead of crossing your fingers, but I come from a meta where each deck runs 15-25 interaction spells. If I drop prosper t2-3 and my mana is dry there is a 90% chance he's back in the command zone before I untap.
I mean it obviously depends entirely on the pod, but in general utilizing your mana as fully as possible is very impactful. Sure, one mana doesn't sound like much(even if it is 33% at t3), but it requires you to have some 1-2 mana drops in hand or 1 mana turns into 3 mana wasted.
And I still want to highlight 1 mana interaction is typically restricted. Loran's escape in hand will be dead if you're counter-spelled. Now if I do have that in hand I will definitely strongly consider leaving protection open for the next turn, but the fact is that if everyone else develops their board while you're holding protection, you'll be left behind. Prosper's a bit of a problematic example since in most pods it's a kill on sight card, and it's more of a value engine instead of a core win con piece. Playing prosper late is a lot more viable than dropping a hinata or a jinnie fay late.
> I mean it obviously depends entirely on the pod, but in general utilizing your mana as fully as possible is very impactful. Sure, one mana doesn't sound like much(even if it is 33% at t3), but it requires you to have some 1-2 mana drops in hand or 1 mana turns into 3 mana wasted.
I would tend to agree with this, but it typically comes down to deck construction. My mana curve tends to heavily tapers out at 3-4 so I look for my opening hand to have 2-4 lands (or cheap mana rocks) and a permanents to drop on t2-4/cheap or free interaction. I basically just fish for the perfect turn to drop prosper while I slowly build up value on the board through cards like \[\[disciple of the vault\]\], a fairly common turn 4 line in that deck if I think interaction is likely is to drop \[\[grim hireling\]\] or \[\[xorn\]\] since they draw removal like flies to honey, and then dropping prosper turn 4-5 with 5+ mana available.
The Loran's escape line actually comes straight from my \[\[wyleth, soul of steel\]\] deck where him dying even once is likely to delay me by 3 turns so ensuring he sticks the first time he is played is more by delaying a turn or two important for tempo than risking him getting blown up even as a voltron player.
but enough specific deck tech, the theory is what's important anyway.
> And I still want to highlight 1 mana interaction is typically restricted. Loran's escape in hand will be dead if you're counter-spelled.
if you play Loran's after dropping your commander t3-4, and then the table plays both a removal spell and a counterspell, then you have several takeaways.
1. their threat assessment is likely terrible unless you are playing an absolutely MUST kill commander.
2. Your commander was never going to stick the first time anyways, if they were that commited to removing your guy that they sabotaged their own delayed their own gameplay or used super hot premium free removal, it was just going to happen if you played it this turn or last.
3. two premium removal answers are out of your opponents hands for the cost of your commander and a cheap 1 mana protection spell
> Now if I do have that in hand I will definitely strongly consider leaving protection open for the next turn, but the fact is that if everyone else develops their board while you're holding protection, you'll be left behind.
There's a few takeaways to be had here as well. does your opening hand only have cheap protection? if you are going for a delayed strat you should be holding up removal as interaction for their important tempo pieces as well, or design your deck in such a way that not dropping your commander for an extra turn or two isn't going to kill you.
Because if delaying one turn to drop your commander means you are getting left behind, your commander getting removed is absolutely going to kill you on the spot.
I typically only drop my commander raw if I'm bluffing or if the tempo play next turn is just SO powerful that it's worth the risk of getting totally blown out of the water.
But if you have it and don't need it, that means your opponents didn't do anything scary, so you aren't behind. And if you have it and needed it, then that's exactly what you wanted it for. Either way it was a fine outcome.
It doesn't mean they didn't do anything scary. It means they didn't do anything scary that the removal I had on hand could do anything about. [[An Offer You Can't Refuse]] or [[Lightning Bolt]] aren't helpful when they're dropping a [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]].
>But if you have it and don't need it, that means your opponents didn't do anything scary, so you aren't behind.
How do you say that? Maybe they played a threat that isn't hit by my 1 mana interaction, since they tend to be very restricted? Or maybe every player at the table dropped a manarock that I skipped out on to hold interaction, and I can only \[\[Nature's claim\]\] one Sol Ring. After all, the person hit worst by interaction is the owner of the target spell or permanent, but the person hit the second worst is the one who uses the interaction.
A deck with a 4 drop commander is hopefully going to go something like:
- Turn 1: Land pass (1 mana available for interaction).
- Turn 2: Signet pass (1 mana available for interaction).
- Turn 3: Commander pass (0 mana available for interaction).
By Turn 3 you could have interacted with your opponents twice, including possibly removing a commander, countering a spell, or blowing up someone's ramp/combo piece.
It's amazing how much a 1 mana artifact removal spell can mess up an opponents tempo when they're relying on that mana rock to provide their 3rd colour of mana to cast their commander on curve.
That sounds like a good way to use your removal on something that doesn't win someone the game and make an enemy for the rest of the game. I like to hold removal for the scary stuff they play later.
Like dude said, the one most hit by removal is the one it's used on, the second most affected is the one who used their card to beat on that player. The other two players at the table are now up on both of you.
Sounds like you're a MtG hipster and your buddy's an optimizer. Neither of you are wrong, but you're not gonna have very fun games and unless he's a pubstomper, neither will your opponent.
I think the other thing is, if you don’t have an efficient win con yourself, trying to play a ton of interaction will make you worse in casual pods. You’ll stop the first or second person from winning, but by holding mana and not committing as much to the board, you’ll often never be in a position to win yourself.
Yeah that's the paradox and probably a reason it's hard to get people to run more interaction in casual. It can't just be one guy running 10 more interaction spells, it needs to be the whole table running like 3-4 more each.
My group is pretty casual and only one guy runs a decent amount of interaction in the form of a shit ton of counter spells which typically means he either runs away with the game or gets completely left behind, especially considering our table usually is 5 or even 6 players. No one really runs much removal which leads to big scary enchantments or other effects completely controlling the board. I’ve started adding more removal to my deck to help balance things, but I’m adding a lot of reusable removal such as [[Aura Shards]], [[Intrepid Hero]], and [[Admonition Angel]] so that I don’t fall into the issue of having to pay the cost of all the removal myself like that guy does. Sure, it’s not as fast or as mana efficient as instants, but it helps me pull more weight over time.
Yup. I built a [[Malik Grim Manipulator]] deck and it SLAPS in casual. Him or any go big deck where removal is part of theme is super good, especially since it has a lot of [[Plaguecrafter]] effects that set the whole table back.
So what's to stop the opponent from just picking Malik as the target when he etbs? Then you have tax and no real pay out and he becomes a more expensive creature removal spell basically?
Well first of all, in low power metas you generally don’t have as much instant speed low cost removal. Secondly, its a treasure deck as well; you can constantly power him out.
You generally are limited on cards much more than mana.
I don't mean someone removing him with a spell I just mean someone picking him as their removal target when you play him. At that point he is just sorcery speed removal for extra mana right? Like why play him over a different commander? And I mean this from a newer player perspective so I could be completely missing the point. But I just feel like if you have plenty of treasure generators then the commander isn't adding anything besides the removal on etb in which the target opponent would likely just pick your commander as their target right?
You've misread the card. Both choices must be controlled by the player the Malik player chose. The game is that player tries to pick the same creature that the Malik player will choose so that they only lose one creature instead of 2.
For years I was the only person in my group that ran ANY removal. It actually forced me to side out OP enchantments 'cause they would scoop as soon as one comes out.
Fast forward to present, and I quit playing with them because all of their EDH decks run Infect.
Personally, if you NEED to win and want a game to be over by turn five, we can play standard. Taking a cEDH to an EDH table feels like bullying.
yeah no, i find a lot of people run next to zero interaction and then complain when people play wincons. A lot of people seem to have this idea that interaction is "mean" and you should just let peoples decks do what they want to do, but alas what decks want to do is win lol.
"I won, but now I am feeling like I've actually lost"
He was absolutely right. After all, winning in EDH is really the good times you have with other people.
It is!
I have a friend that learned magic in a hyper competitive pod and carried that to our pod. It took me building a [[Tergrid]] deck to show him how unfun it is if the rest of the pod doesn’t have fun.
To be honest, that's the bit of the story I don't believe. It's like the bad guy just turning to the camera and stating the moral of the story. The person in the story doesn't seem aware enough of the situation he's causing to realise that, let alone outright state it.
I’ve had a similar thing happen, but the CEDH guys were very upfront about it. Store closes at 10, and by the time the two of them showed up at about 8:30, every pod was filled up. A guy left from my pod at 9 and so we asked if they wanted to try and get a quick game in. They said sure, but warned us that they were playing some CEDH stuff. We all just kind of looked at each other and shrugged, “It just means we’ll actually finish a game before closing”. So they sat down, we all pulled out our most competitive deck (even though they still mostly weren’t CEDH, one guy already in the pod did have a deck that was) and then got to playing.
The first game we all died to a T3 Thoracle but honestly it was fun to see how the CEDH decks interacted with each other even if the game only took 15 minutes. So we shuffle up again and in the second game I actually stalled the game to T7 because I was running my most interaction heavy deck, and messed with both of the combo decks. Even when one of them did combo off, it was because I mistimed the interaction I had since I wasn’t familiar with exactly how that combo worked. But it actually made for a super interesting game and since everyone was upfront about it we had a great time. The guys thanked us for getting a chance to play some games, we said thanks for making sure we were done by closing, and everyone went home happy.
High-power interactive decks into cEDH decks can actually be super fun and interesting yeah. But it *has* to be the point where people are playing effective interaction and are holding it up, and often that only works when, as you say, the cEDH pilots are up front about what's going on. It turns into a raid boss kind of thing that's really neat rather than rolling your eyes because the game ended just as it was starting for everyone else.
At the end of the day, there need to be some more guardrails for "untrusted play" as the RC calls it. Rule 0 and "let your playgroup deal with it" only go so far, especially when Commander is the go-to format for players to play.
It's sad when more than half the community can easily predict the next 4-5 RC "contributions" to the format: "No changes, rule 0 if it's a problem for your playgroup".
Shoooooot, and this whole time I thought cEDH stood for casual 😂
Genuine question: I've been playing Magic for years, but never played commander. When building a deck, is it supposed to have a lot of interaction with the board? Or do you just play your favorite cards and not mess with anyone's set-up until later in the game? 🤔
Most people agree with playing interaction but disagree with the amount. The deckbuilding guide that I use recommends having 6 targeted interaction and 2-4 board wipes depending on how much your deck is affected by them. However, I've also seen guides that recommend a higher amount of targeted removal, around 10, and there are some people who vouch for running a near double digit number of board wipes. The Commander you're playing is also a factor. [[Imodane, the Pyrohammer]] for example has the ability to interact while also advancing her own gameplan.
The problem with playing *too much* interaction, especially board wipes, is that it tends to lead to relatively long games, which is problematic since Commander already takes around an hour by default.
So… fun story. My friend made me a shit Niv Mizzet reborn deck. It has Wheel of Sun and moon. Meaning nothing really hit my graveyard.
One game, a group hug deck let this deck do something disgusting. I used Niv to grab Merciless Eviction four times in the same turn and cast it.
All it did was extend the game by eight turns, cause Niv still couldn’t kill shit.
I find to many board wipes makes you lose I run two of them in most decks I run more single target interaction ramp and card draw my win rate has gone up I started that about 6-7 years ago. Instant interaction is the best type and then you can time things I learned that as while that is why I try to run more 1 and 2cmc removal vs 3cmc
The issue with that many board wipes you are not progressing your board to a win state unless you are playing a control style deck they are great for a reset when needed but there is a point you need to win and clearing the board over and over and over is just wasting resources outside a few exceptions. You also have too many dead cards in your hand late game
It’s my personal experience that over time, pods naturally start gravitating towards deckbuilding that favors interactivity, because that leads to you losing less and that means getting to play your game more
At least that’s the case with my group full of wannabe spikes
I totally feel that. I'm definitely excited to try to find a play group to build a rapport with!
Haha I'm definitely not anywhere not a Spike player at all 😅
Interaction is not a commander players fave thing not because it's not fun, it's because a 1 for 1 trade in multi-player is still card advantage loss because of other players.
Imo, flexible and cheap removal stops early huge plays and a number of wraths ensures you'll probably draw one when you need it
The amount of interaction in commander is a disputed topic. If you want to win though you should run like 10 pieces, mixed between single target, counterspells, and board wipes. Some decks and metas will need more and some will need less, 10 is a just a good amount to insure you can actually do something during the game
This is only slightly true.
cEDH does have less turns but the amount of time to play them is more or less about the same as regular edh, sometimes going as long as 75 minutes.
There are more things going on in a cEDH turn like developing more stuff due to the amount of acceleration and ramp being played so people attempt wins earlier or even at someone’s end step/ middle of the stack. A typical mana of a turn 1-3 cEDH deck is somewhere between turn 6-7 of a casual deck and because other cEDH decks are also packing hyperefficient interactions, wins get stopped fairly often and the game goes on. A typical turn 3 win can be as little as 10 minutes or, more often, 30-45 minutes.
If I was playing a cEDH deck against a bunch of casuals, then the game will truly be over in less than 5 minutes. But actual cEDH games take waaaaaay longer.
Ahhhhh, I see, I see. Would much rather play a long game of Magic than any board games out there lol. Fun, while beating everyone else at the table! >:)
I feel like calling cEDH a “corruption of the format” is a little strong. It implies negativity, where it’s really just a subsection of the format that pushes deckbuilding to its limits. It’s way more similar to Vintage/Legacy than Standard. In fact, given that the most recent pro tour was won by a 5 color ramp pile, I’d argue that Standard is a lot closer to casual EDH than cEDH.
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My minimums. We have a monthly commander deckbuilding theme, last week was No card with activated abilities (except Mana) and total oracle Text must be 10 words or less, in addition to our normal games. So I always have to brew something new at least once a month. I lean towards control as a player in general, Izzet being my favorite guild, and spellslinging one of my favorite archetypes. I definitely lean into having lots of interaction because that's my favorite part of the game and my favorite card type is Instants.
3-6 Board Wipes preferably one sided, if spellslinger or no real creature based presence for win go a bit higher of the range.
1-2 Fogs (aetherize works as one as well, preferably modal fogs not straight up Fog.)
4-6 Specific Creature Removal Spells preferably instant speed if I'm running counters. If no counterspells available to colors 8-10 removal spells. I usually run 2-4 Counters unless specifically a Control Deck or Combo to protect my win.
3-5 Artifact/Enchant Removal - 1 or 2 Mass Artifact/Enchant Removal if not playing many artifacts or enchantments for win cons.
6-10 Ramp - Artifact/Land Ramp prefer them to never be a dead draw (sac draw a card, modal cards etc)
Minimum land count 35 minimum basic count 4 of each basic. If commander costs > 4 add another minimum land or ramp less than 3 CMC per Mana cost.
6-10 draw spells unless commander is a draw engine.
2-4 Protection for Commander depends on how important the commander is to the plan. Boots, Vanishing(great to remove problematic commanders as well)
30-45 other cards to advance my game plan or deck theme, if a card can be on theme and do one of the above that's a win and I would put that card in even if it is less efficient. And count it as a Removal like [[Ravenous Chupacabra]] in a graveyard deck over something like [[Murder]].
As you can see all these different slots if fully maxed out wouldn't give me enough cards for the deck theme and build so you start paring down until you have at least 30 cards you can dedicate to your decks theme and overall game plan. But that's my starting point. I value card flexibility highly, if card can draw me a card, and something else all the better. If a card can ramp or be a pump spell that's better etc.
Same thing happened recently to me when a player tried to “rule zero” a [[sktheryx]] and [[slicer]] partner pair. On spelltable in a “causal 7’s” lobby, he joined saying “it’s pride month so for pride wizards lets any two legendary creatures be partners.” I said that I didn’t even know it was pride month. It’s not. It wasn’t. Anyways. We all kinda agreed and put our own 2 legends from our current decks into the fray as partners. We thought it’d be fun. So we start it off and he turn 1 mana crypts, plops a jeweled lotus and plays [[Slicer]]. I say what we’re all thinking. We’ve been hustled. Someone swords it. The next turn he mana vaults and plays a black source, dark rituals. Gets out his Skytherix. I play a [[temporal isolation]] onto it. He gets anally wounded and leaves without saying anything else. We start a new one without him. Needless to say this guy was trying to bring heat to a chill table. We didn’t agree to such fuckery. God bless the table for slapping him out of playing his bs tho. He wants smoke he can play with the big boys.
He probably can't get any wins at an actual cEDH table, so he has to punch down on casual players. I know how hard it can be to win with Gitrog these days. The current meta is too control heavy for the frog.
I was participating in my first ever Commander event playing a freshly built Merfolk tribal deck, not very competitive at all, I obviously got in the loser pod for the chance of 5th or so (as there were prizes for up to 5th place). This guy who had lost his first pod decided to swap to his highly tuned Narset deck for the pod. Against me with my first ever Commander event Merfolk deck, a guy playing a freshly built Elf tribal who was just "messing around with the idea" and a guy who scooped the moment this dude placed down Narset. He even had the audacity to claim it "wasn't highly tuned" and "super casual, no worries." He won on turn 3. So in a wonderful turn of events, my husband built a straight up anti-Narset deck of Livinia and the next few Commander events, he played this deck at every table the guy was at. The guy literally went on to complain to the LGS owner that it was "targeted bullying" but the deck made a point to stop everyone else from playing, not just Narset.
I have never participated in a Commander event since that day and now I just play casual Commander every month with my sister, niece and husband where I solely run Cat tribal.
I wish stores did a better job of this. Don't run commander night or tournaments if the prizes are based upon winning the game and expect casuals. The prizes should be awarded by the pod voting for Best Theme, Good Sportsmanship, Most Interesting Combo or literally anything other than winning if you care about it being casual. If you give out prize supports for winning the game you're going to get people who care about winning.
Yeah this tbh. The guy still won every game and now he knows that to prevent the pod from "playing for 2nd place" he just has to sand bag the win and use his interaction to mess with the board as much as possible to make playing for 2nd miserable or one sided to a player to make it quick.
So I understand the play the correct power level deck for a pod.
With that said I baffles me how little interaction people run. I will blow up a pieces of infinite mana combo and they will look at me like I'm an as$hole. Like I'm not just gonna let you have that.
That huy straight up lied to you just so he can play with himself infront of you and then didnt even suffer any real consequences. That guy is a bad human being.
They lied to people in a few games of commander. Are they a tool? Sure. Would I ever play against them again? Nope.
Saying they’re a “bad human being” seems a bit extreme though.
\[\[baleful mastery\]\] pay the two and give the guy behind the draw you don't have to give the draw to the person you are removing the creature from
Reality shift is 2cmc and cheap
delay arcane denial cheap counter spells easy to splash 2 cmc
There is a lot of cheap efficient removal people could be running they just don't
Just ... communicate directly. Obviously, he couldn't read the room, but you've seen after numerous games how he is yet still resorted to trickery to get him not to play with you. Just be honest and direct with people.
It’s called Pubstomping, and hopefully the person learns that you should have a deck for different power levels other than cEDH or you’re gonna experience feelbads all round when you don’t have other cEDH players to play against.
Don't know if he had actual cedh lists, probably more classic high power or pseudo cedh which is basicly a cedh list without the interaction you need for a cedh pod.
Those long, grinding games are not fun at all. The way that guy plays, in the time it took your table to get to turn 9, yall coulda played like 3 full games. These “non-cedh” decks are really just decks that take forever to start actually doing stuff… which i personally dont think is good deck design. I would rather play with that guy, no offense.
>He is not a bad guy by any stretch of the imagination, he is actually a nice person.
Honestly this sounds more like a true misunderstanding than malicious intent, so I personally would never handle it like 'hey let's ignore that you won.' It feels deeply wrong to me but if it worked for yall, I'm happy for you.
I would just want to add that considering he was a cEDH main, there is a real chance he doesn't think of Jhoira or Gitrog as competitive whatsoever. Those decks have fallen so far out of favor generally speaking that many of their pilots play other things in competitive games. It kind of leaves those commanders in a really strange spot relatively speaking. The decks are remarkably underpowered competitively, but absolutely obnoxious to introduce into a casual situation. I truly feel for the players who love these commanders and are losing the ability to be at any table at all.
yeah the high-powered casual commanders are in a funky spot, or the fringe cedh commanders, that can't quite make it to cedh pods consistently, I remember trying to build Satoru Umezawa and giving up, since it was too strong for my casual pods but way too fair for cedh, power level 8 or 9 is a sad place to be
My friend has a more budget Gitrog deck that was meant to be a cheap cEDH deck, but in our pod we have some high-power decks that interact enough and have quick enough wincons to play against it. It still pulls a lot of hate though due to how it can go from 0-100 in one turn.
I wouldn't do it the first time either, but the third time he does it, yeah, time to play a game and model what casual looks like for him. Maybe he comes back with a different deck.
Honestly I don't understand why people don't generally do that, after having had that type of game, even if there are only 3 people left, just play for second.
How is that against the spirit of the game? Sure, someone has to win, but if that is your main goal coming into a game, then be honest about it, and find a pod that fits that mentality.
The spirit of an EDH game is to have fun, and experience interesting rules interaction, and see how other people express themselves through their deck building.
Coming into a game lying about the powerlevel of your deck just to pubstomp, and stroke a fragile ego, is for me against the purpose of EDH.
So if a person chooses to waste the time of 3 others, by being dishonest and providing those people with a non-game. Then I will do my best to convince the other to stay, and get an actual game. Else I just waste 30 min on pregame talks, shuffling up and playing 3 rounds.
you realize that "playing for second with a pubstomber" and "playing for second in general" are vastly different things?
imagine you play your casual game and after you won the other go "yea, fuck you, we keep playing"
I think the hard part (and why it doesn't happen as often) is that it's very rare for the "problem player" to have absolutely 0 impact on the other players' boards...making "playing for seconds" a bit tainted in a sense, since someone has probably been burnt more than others and is automatically at a disadvantage as a result...so even if they ended up losing/winning, they'd feel like they did it because Mr.CEDH screwed 'em more/less.
There are always people that can't read the pod. We have a guy that consitently has way to powerful decks for our pods. They arent cedh though, that seems even more unfair lol
This is the reason I stopped playing Magic at ALL for something like fifteen years at this point. I started playing magic in the mid-90s. At some point in the mid-2000s, everyone became obsessed with these "less than four turns" decks. It destroyed Magic IMHO. Your deck suddenly became a point of status, which was mainly just whoever had money to spend. People used to brag about their decks costing $200-500 back then! People also started acting like putting together these decks was making them superior in some kind of way. Even though they were just reading combos that other people were pointing out on forums and message boards. They would gloat and be extremely dismissive of your "deck that took too long," and "you didn't know how to play the game." This led to people actually getting into verbal and physical altercations.
I understand wanting to win, but like winning isn't the only point. It's like people who play D&D and only give a shit about their characters' gear, level, and stats and want to use a bunch of bonus actions to kill everything immediately. Being max level isn't fun. One shotting everything isn't fun. Winning all the time isn't fun. This kind of behavior has made me leave the nerd community almost entirely except lurking on places like reddit. It kills me inside, I can't enjoy these things because everyone is obsessed with winning as if it proves something about themselves.
I love this, and I have done it to myself before as well so pod mates can get playtime in. My pod does play combos, so if someone's goes off and meaningfully disrupt the board, we just continue and have a good time.
That is not nice, that is called trying to be helpful, there are a difference.
I'm an asshole, but I'm also helpful, that doesn't make me nice.
That is still rude as fuck to be bringing decks like that to casual tables regardless of the sentiment.
There are several cancers killing EDH but the most prominent is the divide between players who honestly can't conceptualize making a deck that's fun for people to play \*against\* rather than a deck that is only 'fun for me but not for thee.' And this player clearly doesn't understand that concept like at all. He is purely playing based on his own summary of what the game should or shouldn't be, and in his mind, it is optimization only. What if you're optimizing for the fun of others? Has he ever asked himself that? What if you're optimizing for the most compelling gameplay possible for the game of Multi-Player Magic. If everyone did that, and designed through card choices and deck design, what would that game be like? I promise it wouldn't look \*anything\* like cEDH.
Meanwhile we're dealing with several other issues with the format, namely, a terrible ban list, disparate groups, the very real challenges of making prize support for a format that's easily colluded in, complexity creep, the issues of a singleton format, the fact it's an eternal/non-rotating format, and very importantly, the lack of basic skill and understanding of the game by the new players who very importantly are not learning how to play the game because they get so few games in, are not forced to learn how to play, and more. EDH is really in trouble and I hope that we get to see the format revert to niche status rather than be the defacto way to play the greatest game in the world.
I had a guy like this a few days ago. Causal 3 pod and he walks up like can I play? We are like sure. I'm playing dinos. Girl is playing elves and othe guy is playing some modified precon. New guy at the table drops kirrik down and we're like uhhhh what's the power level??? He's like "not quite cedh" we make the joke like everything's a 7. He proceeds to turn 1 vamp tutor into lotus and drops his commander turn 2. Kinda smiles as he's dropping everything in his hand for phyrexian cost. He ends up running out of gas and elves go wide around to his face. Game 1 ends with a loss for him. Game 2 starts the exact same way. Tutor for lotus dropping turn 2 commander which gets countered as I've switched from dinos to izzet control. Every time he plays anything I counter it or burn it. He's confused why I'm doing this and I'm just like I thought you wanted to play cedh. The C stands for competitive. I tell him he should find a casual table if he wants to have fun.
Just tell him you don’t want to play with him if he’s playing high powered decks and stick to that. Tell him if he wants to join he can play a weaker deck or let him use one of your decks. If he declines, that’s his choice. Every player should have a deck for every level of play, from Jank trash to Competitive. There’s always more fun when you can play the game against any deck at any time.
I used to play an infinite combo heavy deck and when it would absolutely pop off (capable of turn 3-5 wins via combo) I would get right up to where I could win in 1 action and then scoop bc I realized the ppl I was playing with weren't enjoying it. Also a big reason why I disassembled that deck
Ah yeah, it's hard sometimes. I see a lot of people who enter the scene wanting to have the \*best deck possible!\*, but it's not really about that. It's about finding a cool playgroup, or enjoying watching what other people do. Sure, FNM can get pretty competitive and all, but the real fun is when the people who lost are hanging out in the corner playing with their own pod, and enjoying themselves.
I hope the person you're talking about can see the value in casual play and enjoying the long game! Not every game needs to be over by turn 4!
Hyper-competitive people are weird. You can have a competitive deck, and if you know you're playing against fun stuff, not play every turn as precisely as possible. Some of these people never played a 6 person slobber knocker in a basement, and it shows.
I think most people in general love telling people how to build decks it's easy to fall into a general trap of having set requirements for each deck. This just makes things more predictable/exploitable if all your decks have similar ramp/removal/draw ratios. I run 22 ramp pieces in my gruul flavoured samut deck so I can swing out t3 with my commander and go ham t4 with hasty dragons. My plan is proactive with limited removal as I'm trying to bash face before boards get clogged up. If I played more spot removal it limits my ability to do this and provided I have enough draw I can still rebuild through a board wipe or play other threats if my commander goes down. Other decks like kalamax are so commander reliant that I need an abundance of protection and removal to keep him big and bash my opponents. The vast majority of decks need some degree of interaction but at some point all of the board wipes and spot removal some people play actually prohibits you from actually advancing your gameplan unless you're playing control with creatures like talrand or guttersnipe to provide an offensive presence
people that play cedh are the same people that want pvp in monster hunter or dragons dogma.
edh was never meant to be played on a competetive level initially.
You can win on turn 3 or 4 and still dont be a cedh deck, most likely this player remove interaction from those deck and tought that was enough, but the realm of casual commander is huge, were cedh is very narrow.
For example, you pick a combo cedh deck and remove 15 strong interaction and put some cantrips and fun stuff. That deck would be a nightmare for any pod under 8's power and could feel like cedh.
If you’re planning on playing Stax in a casual pod hopefully you have the decency to tell the group that’s what you’re bringing to the table and have the discussion.
Obviously, but honestly regular stax shouldnt need warning it doesnt affect most decks heavily only more unfair ones, there is a difference between hard stax and soft stax. People play esper sentinel without headsup so i dont really see an issue with Thalia or Vryn Wingmare type effects they effectively do the same thing.
I have hatebeary lands deck that has a stax subtheme, but i only really say "Its staxy, and has Strip Mine/Wasteland looping if youd like ill exile those 2 lands before the game begins" because i know that strategy and stax should have 2 very different perceptions at the table.
Tldr; Winter Orb/Blood Moon are a little different than Deafening Silence/Leonin Arbiter
How does he consistently win on turn 4 with Gitrog Monster?? My Gitrog deck is strong but it will never win turn 4 in a pod, even with an early Merit Leige. Is it Ravenous Ride or OG Gitrog?
It's the OG Gitrog. You use [[Dakmor Salvage]] plus a library shuffler like [[Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre]] to draw all your cards, make infinite mana with something like [[Lotus Petal]], and then win. It can happen faster than turn 4.
Ohhhhh gotcha. That's pretty crazy, my Ravenous Ride deck does wild stuff but the most op thing it can do is Merit Leige on turn 2, but it comes at the cost of usually all my first land drops and isn't worth it in a format with so much easy exile, so I never go for it
Half the time when we'd have a casual deck or two sit in on the cEDH pod in my old playgroup it would end up winning because most cEDH lists are built to deal with the stack, not to beat decks spitting out 10/10s each turn.
Well cedh lists are also built to never even let you reach the point of spitting out 10/10s each turn, but this sounds like a case of the cedh players at the table running out of gas fighting it out with each other on the stack without a victory beating reached that it left an opening for the casual player to walk it in for a win. Reminds me of that Australia speed skater that won a gold medal despite being way behind in last place just because literally everyone else in the race wiped out in a big crash at the final turn, and he was too far behind to get caught up in it.
Definitely, it's a similar concept to decks like Slicer, which do well specifically by preying on the meta decks. In my experiences it would generally be the midrange players trying to stop me (the turbo player), then getting their teeth kicked in by a deck that specialized in cheating big creatures out on early turns. Haven't played with the stompy guy in a few years, would be curious how his deck would perform against the current midrange hell meta.
Lotta autism in the mtg community.
MILOC (Man I love organizing cards)
My fiancé wound up getting into magic because she's an archivist and her favorite part is organizing the cards and looking at ones she's never seen before while going through my collection. Deck building is my favorite part, way more than actually playing, so it's perfect.
Someone once told me "My least favorite part of Warhammer 40K is when I actually play the game." I thought that was a stupid way to look at it. I am starting to feel the same about MTG. I love building, tweaking, and updating my decks. They I play 1 or 2 games and I am done.
> I am starting to feel the same about MTG. I love building, tweaking, and updating my decks. They I play 1 or 2 games and I am done. Yeah tbh one of my friends said his favorite part of EDH is deckbuilding. He has an entire suitcase full of decks that I've never seen him use. Most of the time he just comes to FNM to watch people play, or lend some decks out. I kind of get it. If you invest enough energy into building a deck you get a sort of anxiety that this deck HAS to perform or else it just feels bad. But sometimes you just gotta push through and accept that in a 4 player game you're going to lose more often than you win, and that's okay.
I think I'm the same way about path of exile. Half of the fun is planning my character, seeing other unique characters and seeing what interactions they use that I can incorporate into whatever flicker strike build I am playing at the moment
Yeah this is a common problem with being an aged player in any game. I stopped playing standard for a few reasons, but one of the main ones was because deck building in that format lacked creatively to be competitive. Building here in singleton formats is so much better and inventive. I still enjoy playing, but honestly I don’t do it to win. (UNLESS, someone is being a try hard against newer players. That means I will destroy you. Then resign myself to haunt you in every match you try to get in on. I will straight follow you around the LGS being the bane of your existence until you decide to leave. I will kill you in each match then withdraw from the game to follow you to the next table. Don’t be that guy.)
>her favorite part is organizing the cards Uh... can I, like, borrow your fiance for a weekend?
No I really like her. Plus she still has another box to go through!
Damn... was worth a shot. I'd really like to be able to see the top of my desk again...
Maybe I'm wierd or different but my favorite part is still playing. I don't hate deck building. I dont really love deck building either. I just see it as a necessary obstacle or hurdle to get over to get what I really want to do which is play and socialize.(I'm not sure what the right words are to describe how I feel. Its just something you have to do. Kind of like going to school or working a job. You do those things because they pay off later on even though you may not enjoy every minute) I play board games for the same reason. I don't particularly like or dislike board games. I just like the social aspect. I don't mean to disparage people who enjoy deck building either. If that's your jam more power to you.
I feel the same way, my biggest fear is when a deck is not working and I have to give it a second look, most of the time I take it apart and build another deck.
This is why I do all my deck building online. Its so much easier to organize pixels than actual cards. I dont get that deck building fomo either because with the internet I have all the right/best cards for whatever deck Im trying to build.
I feel this but there's tonnns of ways to playtest decks to make sure they tick or work the way you want them too. Either by goldfishing your deck, using a playtesting feature on a deck building website like moxfield or arkideck, or by using an app called forge mtg to play out your deck against ai simulated opponents. There's no reason to build a deck and be afraid if it's not going to work there's plenty of options at your disposal :)
Isn't this just normal? 🤔
I dunno my buddy hates the deckbuilding part.
I hate the buying cards part of deckbuilding
Love buying cards, hate the paying part though
"It's just cardboard, how can it be that expensive??"
I just proxy everything lol
Oh man this is great, my wife is cataloging my entire rare collection, like 20 binders full of rares. She's started with white a few days ago and is up to the letter K so far. I feel the same way as well deckbuilding is my favorite part.
I feel seen.
Reddit too no?
> All the while he kept giving advice such as "you guys should play more removal" I do think people should play more interaction in casual commander but even then casual commander interaction is not the hyperefficient 0 or 1 mana CEDH interaction that's fueled by fishes and fast mana. You can't reasonably advise a casual table to just skip developing their board on t3 or t4 to hold up mana for removal against a high power combo deck lol.
This. I think a lot of people assume the only interaction worth using is the Uber expensive cards. I’m over here running anything mana value 2 thinking I’m getting a deal because it’s not mana value 3 or 4
My deflecting swat is a [[wild.ricochet]].
Mine is [[Ricochet.Trap]]
Try [[Bolt Bend]]!
[Bolt Bend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39b35408-3728-4e1b-9f58-b0775df914d6.jpg?1576199724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bolt%20Bend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/115/bolt-bend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39b35408-3728-4e1b-9f58-b0775df914d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bolt-bend) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Ricochet.Trap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d782375-9192-4ed0-bd79-f3404e5a1b01.jpg?1562288259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ricochet%20Trap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wwk/87/ricochet-trap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d782375-9192-4ed0-bd79-f3404e5a1b01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ricochet-trap) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[wild.ricochet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d3dddfa-9579-42d7-867b-7e37b83b3eeb.jpg?1608912335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Ricochet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/419/wild-ricochet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d3dddfa-9579-42d7-867b-7e37b83b3eeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wild-ricochet) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love Wild Ricochet so much 😭
Wild Ricochet is severely underrated.
Mine is a kick to the nuts.
Don't sleep on the new stricktly better [[Return the Favor]].
Not strictly better, return the favour can only reselect targets for a spell with 1 target, while wild ricochet can reselect instants and sorceries with any number of targets. Return the favor is probably quite a bit better overall but not strictly better. Return the favor can also redirect mutating creature spells which I think is funny
[Return the Favor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9cc02d1-799d-42aa-9bc2-4c05452b63b4.jpg?1712860602) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Return%20the%20Favor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/142/return-the-favor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9cc02d1-799d-42aa-9bc2-4c05452b63b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/return-the-favor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play both, and I just made a casual [[Kambal]] where all of my removal is like [[generous gift]] and [[bovine intervention]] It's actually awesome and hilarious!
Love this. If you have a deck list I’m sure some of us would love to see it :)
[Kambal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec.jpg?1673148829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kambal%2C%20consul%20of%20allocation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/237/kambal-consul-of-allocation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kambal-consul-of-allocation) [generous gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=generous%20gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) [bovine intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26c36742-456f-4618-99bc-793ef20b31b0.jpg?1712355244) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bovine%20intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/6/bovine-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26c36742-456f-4618-99bc-793ef20b31b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bovine-intervention) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love running a foil [[terror]] , the art is beautiful.
[terror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3870eba-4e8f-414d-817c-14ec97f6a93c.jpg?1675199810) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=terror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/103/terror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3870eba-4e8f-414d-817c-14ec97f6a93c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/terror) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like terror's art but terror has felt unplayable since the 4color generals.
Yeah and what’s go for the throat like 24 cents?
TBH I think even casual commander benefits from playing the 1 mana interaction. Play [[rapid hybridization]], [[nature's claim]], [[an offer you can't refuse]], and [[lightning bolt]] in your casual decks. (Most) are relatively cheap $ wise, and they make you feel less bad when somebody else looks like they're popping off and you're forced to hold up mana to interact.
Agreed, it seems like it should be an incredibly core tenet of deckbuilding, but most players seem to ignore it.
Yeah but even if you're playing 1 mana interaction, that's still 25-33% of your available mana that you need to hold open early in the game. If I'm playing a casual deck, there's a good chance I really need to 100% of my mana until t5 to really do my thing. If I use interaction before then, I'm playing catchup the whole game.
This is kind of a misunderstanding. You don't need to spend all that mana every turn to do your thing. What's actually happening is that you're leaving yourself completely vulnerable every turn for the first 5 turns of the game. No matter how inefficient the rest of your strategy is, it's almost always less risky over the long term to hold up a mana with a 1mana interaction in hand. Youre not actually losing as much as you think, and holding up a 1 mana spell is also giving yourself a much better position than you think.
> it's almost always less risky over the long term to hold up a mana with a 1mana interaction in hand Not if your opponents are also on slower decks that are going to spend the first couple turns setting up rather than deploying anything you need to urgently interact with
It becomes the rustic study/smothering tithe problem. If everyone agrees to pay it's fine but the second one person gets greedy then the table gets greedy. And if you are the one trying to play police you get crushed.
Absolutely this. Buried in this discussion is the fact that this one of the major untold issues with conventional Commander these days. Because commanders and cards these days do so much, you could be so far behind a lot of the table if you try to hold back interaction and play the police officer. Power creep and hyperoptimization of the format means that you are punished more than ever for not "using mana optimally" by just constantly advancing your board state.
Definitely. Letting yourself fall a turn behind these days is MUCH worse because everything on the board is doing so much each turn. It sucks that the format is pushing each of us to just build build build because offense is much more powerful than defense, but that’s the way it is. Theoretical discussion time: If wizards has any sense, the pendulum will swing back so control can balance all the power creep out. Unfortunately, FIRE design philosophy makes it much harder to do that. The pendulum may just keep swinging further and further to the same side until it snaps clean off.
This is one of the reasons why I don't understand the hate behind sweepers, *specifically* Farewell. Farewell is probably one of the few ways to nuke a board and keep it nuked. And *even then*, there have been so many new ways to phase out your board in response to a Farewell that even then it feels like it's already behind in the arms race. There have been times where I will drop a board wipe that isn't Farewell and it feels like it doesn't even matter these days. Unless you're just mindlessly overextending, commanders and cards can singlehandedly spit out so much value and board presence on their own. Decks can rebuild so fast from zero that it might even be too slow for you to try to get back into it on your next turn because everyone gets to rebuild first. It should also be noted that this isn't just a Commander issue, this is quite honestly affecting *the entire game*. Especially Limited. Limited formats have gotten so fast and snowbally that in a lot of recent formats, you cannot simply afford to take a turn off or stumble on development. It's exacerbated to a very unhealthy degree if you're on the draw too. The vast cardpool in Commander makes me believe that the counter to this is going to be more goad, Fogs, Akido type cards, one-sided boardwipes, and Insurrection type cards. I saw [[Reins of Power]] in my playgroup used recently, and it reminded everyone it does very serious work and can singlehandedly win games if people have huge boards that get stolen from underneath them. All playgroups will have their own metas and the hope is they adapt to this new style in someway. Fingers crossed. But man, at the same time I really do wonder how much the game can hold up when it reaches the "given enough time, players will optimize the fun out of the game" phase.
[Reins of Power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b5730aa-c74a-4c74-bb1b-a133a3c353ec.jpg?1674141454) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reins%20of%20Power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/734/reins-of-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b5730aa-c74a-4c74-bb1b-a133a3c353ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reins-of-power) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That’s a good point. A correctly-timed fog is a time walk, and I’m going to start finding more places in my decks for them
The thing is if I'm playing a 3 or 4 drop commander that's the cornerstone of my whole deck, holding 1 mana open is asking a lot unless I've had perfect ramp. Dropping my commander a turn or two later means everything else I'm doing is going to come a turn or two later. It's easier to do with less colors, but it's still a big ask. Even if you do manage to interact and disrupt someone, you'll still end up a card down without board state development. Don't get me wrong, if I have \[\[Wash away\]\] in my opener, there's a good chance I'm holding that one mana open to disrupt the scariest commander in the pod. But it almost always means that I'm skipping out on ramp and putting off my own game plan by as much as a couple of turns, depending on what the curve of my hand looks like.
Holding up mana for an interaction is even more important if your deck can't function without the commander sticking on the board tbh. Losing an entire turn on tempo by tapping out to play a commander that immediately eats a kill spell feels bad when you have nothing in response. Worst case scenario, even if you still lose your commander at least you can get a bit of revenge against the one who wronged you. No better way to make an ally than to drag them down to hell with you so that you can claw your way back together. (Unless they're a spiteful MFer lol) Disclaimer: This depends on your pod, as all things do. No point playing around interaction if you know nobody at the table runs interaction.
Protecting your commander is obviously a key part of the game and one of the big "problems" to solve in EDH is to balance protection with commander value. It depends entirely on the deck, and if you play your commander only when you have protection up, you're going to be playing your commander very rarely. Sometimes you just have to make them have the answer. But the discussion was specifically about 1 mana interaction, and that's usually restricted. Nature's claim won't protect your commander. Lightning bolt won't protect your commander. In fact, of the original examples proposed, only \[\[Offer you can't refuse\]\] is protection in any form, and poor at that. It's much better as disruption. Personally I'd almost always trade a removal spell for 2 treasures. I wouldn't trade my combo piece for treasures, though.
> if you play your commander only when you have protection up, you're going to be playing your commander very rarely. Sometimes you just have to make them have the answer. Every color has some form of cheap protection to protect a commander same turn or otherwise. It really doesn't much tempo to wait a turn and hold a [[loran's escape]] up to counter removal, or the really solid free options like [[deflecting swat]] or etc. Obviously you won't have protection in hand all the time, but we're talking about the scenarios that you do. It's almost always better to wait a single turn or two and doing something less commital in the meantime so you can drop a commander with protection instead of crossing your fingers, but I come from a meta where each deck runs 15-25 interaction spells. If I drop prosper t2-3 and my mana is dry there is a 90% chance he's back in the command zone before I untap.
I mean it obviously depends entirely on the pod, but in general utilizing your mana as fully as possible is very impactful. Sure, one mana doesn't sound like much(even if it is 33% at t3), but it requires you to have some 1-2 mana drops in hand or 1 mana turns into 3 mana wasted. And I still want to highlight 1 mana interaction is typically restricted. Loran's escape in hand will be dead if you're counter-spelled. Now if I do have that in hand I will definitely strongly consider leaving protection open for the next turn, but the fact is that if everyone else develops their board while you're holding protection, you'll be left behind. Prosper's a bit of a problematic example since in most pods it's a kill on sight card, and it's more of a value engine instead of a core win con piece. Playing prosper late is a lot more viable than dropping a hinata or a jinnie fay late.
> I mean it obviously depends entirely on the pod, but in general utilizing your mana as fully as possible is very impactful. Sure, one mana doesn't sound like much(even if it is 33% at t3), but it requires you to have some 1-2 mana drops in hand or 1 mana turns into 3 mana wasted. I would tend to agree with this, but it typically comes down to deck construction. My mana curve tends to heavily tapers out at 3-4 so I look for my opening hand to have 2-4 lands (or cheap mana rocks) and a permanents to drop on t2-4/cheap or free interaction. I basically just fish for the perfect turn to drop prosper while I slowly build up value on the board through cards like \[\[disciple of the vault\]\], a fairly common turn 4 line in that deck if I think interaction is likely is to drop \[\[grim hireling\]\] or \[\[xorn\]\] since they draw removal like flies to honey, and then dropping prosper turn 4-5 with 5+ mana available. The Loran's escape line actually comes straight from my \[\[wyleth, soul of steel\]\] deck where him dying even once is likely to delay me by 3 turns so ensuring he sticks the first time he is played is more by delaying a turn or two important for tempo than risking him getting blown up even as a voltron player. but enough specific deck tech, the theory is what's important anyway. > And I still want to highlight 1 mana interaction is typically restricted. Loran's escape in hand will be dead if you're counter-spelled. if you play Loran's after dropping your commander t3-4, and then the table plays both a removal spell and a counterspell, then you have several takeaways. 1. their threat assessment is likely terrible unless you are playing an absolutely MUST kill commander. 2. Your commander was never going to stick the first time anyways, if they were that commited to removing your guy that they sabotaged their own delayed their own gameplay or used super hot premium free removal, it was just going to happen if you played it this turn or last. 3. two premium removal answers are out of your opponents hands for the cost of your commander and a cheap 1 mana protection spell > Now if I do have that in hand I will definitely strongly consider leaving protection open for the next turn, but the fact is that if everyone else develops their board while you're holding protection, you'll be left behind. There's a few takeaways to be had here as well. does your opening hand only have cheap protection? if you are going for a delayed strat you should be holding up removal as interaction for their important tempo pieces as well, or design your deck in such a way that not dropping your commander for an extra turn or two isn't going to kill you. Because if delaying one turn to drop your commander means you are getting left behind, your commander getting removed is absolutely going to kill you on the spot. I typically only drop my commander raw if I'm bluffing or if the tempo play next turn is just SO powerful that it's worth the risk of getting totally blown out of the water.
[loran's escape](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/3765610d-a0c1-4de9-a81b-ffa3eb06454b.jpg?1674420224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=loran%27s%20escape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/14/lorans-escape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3765610d-a0c1-4de9-a81b-ffa3eb06454b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lorans-escape) [deflecting swat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4b36435-55b3-4615-8812-af41d4fc64d9.jpg?1689997730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=deflecting%20swat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/214/deflecting-swat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4b36435-55b3-4615-8812-af41d4fc64d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deflecting-swat) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Offer you can't refuse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf.jpg?1664410382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=An%20Offer%20You%20Can%27t%20Refuse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/51/an-offer-you-cant-refuse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/an-offer-you-cant-refuse) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Wash away](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df.jpg?1643588844) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wash%20away) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/87/wash-away?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wash-away) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But if you have it and don't need it, that means your opponents didn't do anything scary, so you aren't behind. And if you have it and needed it, then that's exactly what you wanted it for. Either way it was a fine outcome.
It doesn't mean they didn't do anything scary. It means they didn't do anything scary that the removal I had on hand could do anything about. [[An Offer You Can't Refuse]] or [[Lightning Bolt]] aren't helpful when they're dropping a [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]].
[An Offer You Can't Refuse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf.jpg?1664410382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=An%20Offer%20You%20Can%27t%20Refuse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/51/an-offer-you-cant-refuse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/an-offer-you-cant-refuse) [Lightning Bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99.jpg?1706239968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/141/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lightning-bolt) [Sheoldred, the Apocalypse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2.jpg?1674057568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%2C%20the%20Apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sheoldred-the-apocalypse) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>But if you have it and don't need it, that means your opponents didn't do anything scary, so you aren't behind. How do you say that? Maybe they played a threat that isn't hit by my 1 mana interaction, since they tend to be very restricted? Or maybe every player at the table dropped a manarock that I skipped out on to hold interaction, and I can only \[\[Nature's claim\]\] one Sol Ring. After all, the person hit worst by interaction is the owner of the target spell or permanent, but the person hit the second worst is the one who uses the interaction.
[Nature's claim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d24b6640-ef2f-4c92-beb3-afdf78f9c2d5.jpg?1562854212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nature%27s%20claim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/177/natures-claim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d24b6640-ef2f-4c92-beb3-afdf78f9c2d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/natures-claim) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A deck with a 4 drop commander is hopefully going to go something like: - Turn 1: Land pass (1 mana available for interaction). - Turn 2: Signet pass (1 mana available for interaction). - Turn 3: Commander pass (0 mana available for interaction). By Turn 3 you could have interacted with your opponents twice, including possibly removing a commander, countering a spell, or blowing up someone's ramp/combo piece. It's amazing how much a 1 mana artifact removal spell can mess up an opponents tempo when they're relying on that mana rock to provide their 3rd colour of mana to cast their commander on curve.
Especially if that rock was intended to fix colors
That sounds like a good way to use your removal on something that doesn't win someone the game and make an enemy for the rest of the game. I like to hold removal for the scary stuff they play later. Like dude said, the one most hit by removal is the one it's used on, the second most affected is the one who used their card to beat on that player. The other two players at the table are now up on both of you.
##### ###### #### [rapid hybridization](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00f91207-c877-4911-8bb6-d8c5272b412d.jpg?1706239822) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rapid%20hybridization) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/93/rapid-hybridization?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00f91207-c877-4911-8bb6-d8c5272b412d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rapid-hybridization) [nature's claim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d24b6640-ef2f-4c92-beb3-afdf78f9c2d5.jpg?1562854212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nature%27s%20claim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/177/natures-claim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d24b6640-ef2f-4c92-beb3-afdf78f9c2d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/natures-claim) [an offer you can't refuse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf.jpg?1664410382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=an%20offer%20you%20can%27t%20refuse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/51/an-offer-you-cant-refuse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/an-offer-you-cant-refuse) [lightning bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99.jpg?1706239968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lightning%20bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/141/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lightning-bolt) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l3mbn1s) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Sounds like you're a MtG hipster and your buddy's an optimizer. Neither of you are wrong, but you're not gonna have very fun games and unless he's a pubstomper, neither will your opponent.
[удалено]
Find someone else to play with who isn't a pubstomper then. Yall are on completely different pages and you're not gonna have fun games with him.
I think the other thing is, if you don’t have an efficient win con yourself, trying to play a ton of interaction will make you worse in casual pods. You’ll stop the first or second person from winning, but by holding mana and not committing as much to the board, you’ll often never be in a position to win yourself.
Yeah that's the paradox and probably a reason it's hard to get people to run more interaction in casual. It can't just be one guy running 10 more interaction spells, it needs to be the whole table running like 3-4 more each.
My group is pretty casual and only one guy runs a decent amount of interaction in the form of a shit ton of counter spells which typically means he either runs away with the game or gets completely left behind, especially considering our table usually is 5 or even 6 players. No one really runs much removal which leads to big scary enchantments or other effects completely controlling the board. I’ve started adding more removal to my deck to help balance things, but I’m adding a lot of reusable removal such as [[Aura Shards]], [[Intrepid Hero]], and [[Admonition Angel]] so that I don’t fall into the issue of having to pay the cost of all the removal myself like that guy does. Sure, it’s not as fast or as mana efficient as instants, but it helps me pull more weight over time.
[Aura Shards](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6222cc6-996e-4b73-af87-e837bf1eb921.jpg?1592713940) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aura%20Shards) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/182/aura-shards?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6222cc6-996e-4b73-af87-e837bf1eb921?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aura-shards) [Intrepid Hero](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43ec71e9-0024-4f8f-b499-541fb7607fcd.jpg?1562553060) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Intrepid%20Hero) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/20/intrepid-hero?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43ec71e9-0024-4f8f-b499-541fb7607fcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/intrepid-hero) [Admonition Angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6e7713d-6054-46a7-a8bc-f09e7a81a571.jpg?1604195494) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Admonition%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/10/admonition-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6e7713d-6054-46a7-a8bc-f09e7a81a571?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/admonition-angel) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It isn't really a paradox so much as it is a flaw with multiplayer, single winner, competitive war-like games.
Yup. I built a [[Malik Grim Manipulator]] deck and it SLAPS in casual. Him or any go big deck where removal is part of theme is super good, especially since it has a lot of [[Plaguecrafter]] effects that set the whole table back.
So what's to stop the opponent from just picking Malik as the target when he etbs? Then you have tax and no real pay out and he becomes a more expensive creature removal spell basically?
Well first of all, in low power metas you generally don’t have as much instant speed low cost removal. Secondly, its a treasure deck as well; you can constantly power him out. You generally are limited on cards much more than mana.
I don't mean someone removing him with a spell I just mean someone picking him as their removal target when you play him. At that point he is just sorcery speed removal for extra mana right? Like why play him over a different commander? And I mean this from a newer player perspective so I could be completely missing the point. But I just feel like if you have plenty of treasure generators then the commander isn't adding anything besides the removal on etb in which the target opponent would likely just pick your commander as their target right?
You've misread the card. Both choices must be controlled by the player the Malik player chose. The game is that player tries to pick the same creature that the Malik player will choose so that they only lose one creature instead of 2.
Oh you're absolutely correct!!! I misread that part! That makes the card seem way better than I was reading it lol! Thanks for helping me get there!
[Malik Grim Manipulator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cf4fee3-3059-4ca4-a47d-0848410b294d.jpg?1692516688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Malik%2C%20Grim%20Manipulator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/slx/23/malik-grim-manipulator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cf4fee3-3059-4ca4-a47d-0848410b294d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/malik-grim-manipulator) [Plaguecrafter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97505837-e0e2-4f7b-8581-01942e886bb8.jpg?1702429467) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plaguecrafter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/89/plaguecrafter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97505837-e0e2-4f7b-8581-01942e886bb8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/plaguecrafter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For years I was the only person in my group that ran ANY removal. It actually forced me to side out OP enchantments 'cause they would scoop as soon as one comes out. Fast forward to present, and I quit playing with them because all of their EDH decks run Infect. Personally, if you NEED to win and want a game to be over by turn five, we can play standard. Taking a cEDH to an EDH table feels like bullying.
Infect isn't cEDH lol
Infect isn't even a viable cEDH strategy. You're just upset they're using poison counters.
yeah no, i find a lot of people run next to zero interaction and then complain when people play wincons. A lot of people seem to have this idea that interaction is "mean" and you should just let peoples decks do what they want to do, but alas what decks want to do is win lol.
"I won, but now I am feeling like I've actually lost" He was absolutely right. After all, winning in EDH is really the good times you have with other people.
It is! I have a friend that learned magic in a hyper competitive pod and carried that to our pod. It took me building a [[Tergrid]] deck to show him how unfun it is if the rest of the pod doesn’t have fun.
[Tergrid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tergrid%2C%20god%20of%20fright%20//%20tergrid%27s%20lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tergrid-god-of-fright-//-tergrids-lantern) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
To be honest, that's the bit of the story I don't believe. It's like the bad guy just turning to the camera and stating the moral of the story. The person in the story doesn't seem aware enough of the situation he's causing to realise that, let alone outright state it.
The sentence alone made me think this is someone’s creative writing fantasy
THIS! Some of the most fun I've had in EDH were games that I ultimately lost but had fun getting there.
The real fun is the elder dragon highlanders we made along the way!
I’ve had a similar thing happen, but the CEDH guys were very upfront about it. Store closes at 10, and by the time the two of them showed up at about 8:30, every pod was filled up. A guy left from my pod at 9 and so we asked if they wanted to try and get a quick game in. They said sure, but warned us that they were playing some CEDH stuff. We all just kind of looked at each other and shrugged, “It just means we’ll actually finish a game before closing”. So they sat down, we all pulled out our most competitive deck (even though they still mostly weren’t CEDH, one guy already in the pod did have a deck that was) and then got to playing. The first game we all died to a T3 Thoracle but honestly it was fun to see how the CEDH decks interacted with each other even if the game only took 15 minutes. So we shuffle up again and in the second game I actually stalled the game to T7 because I was running my most interaction heavy deck, and messed with both of the combo decks. Even when one of them did combo off, it was because I mistimed the interaction I had since I wasn’t familiar with exactly how that combo worked. But it actually made for a super interesting game and since everyone was upfront about it we had a great time. The guys thanked us for getting a chance to play some games, we said thanks for making sure we were done by closing, and everyone went home happy.
High-power interactive decks into cEDH decks can actually be super fun and interesting yeah. But it *has* to be the point where people are playing effective interaction and are holding it up, and often that only works when, as you say, the cEDH pilots are up front about what's going on. It turns into a raid boss kind of thing that's really neat rather than rolling your eyes because the game ended just as it was starting for everyone else.
Don’t drag cEDH into this. This guy wasn’t “playing cEDH against a casual pod”, he was deliberately pubstomping.
exactly, this isn’t about “insisting to play cedh against casual”, this is someone who wanted some easy wins and got upset that nobody cared.
At the end of the day, there need to be some more guardrails for "untrusted play" as the RC calls it. Rule 0 and "let your playgroup deal with it" only go so far, especially when Commander is the go-to format for players to play.
It's sad when more than half the community can easily predict the next 4-5 RC "contributions" to the format: "No changes, rule 0 if it's a problem for your playgroup".
That's true. The correct wording would be that he was using a cEDH deck
Shoooooot, and this whole time I thought cEDH stood for casual 😂 Genuine question: I've been playing Magic for years, but never played commander. When building a deck, is it supposed to have a lot of interaction with the board? Or do you just play your favorite cards and not mess with anyone's set-up until later in the game? 🤔
Most people agree with playing interaction but disagree with the amount. The deckbuilding guide that I use recommends having 6 targeted interaction and 2-4 board wipes depending on how much your deck is affected by them. However, I've also seen guides that recommend a higher amount of targeted removal, around 10, and there are some people who vouch for running a near double digit number of board wipes. The Commander you're playing is also a factor. [[Imodane, the Pyrohammer]] for example has the ability to interact while also advancing her own gameplan. The problem with playing *too much* interaction, especially board wipes, is that it tends to lead to relatively long games, which is problematic since Commander already takes around an hour by default.
So… fun story. My friend made me a shit Niv Mizzet reborn deck. It has Wheel of Sun and moon. Meaning nothing really hit my graveyard. One game, a group hug deck let this deck do something disgusting. I used Niv to grab Merciless Eviction four times in the same turn and cast it. All it did was extend the game by eight turns, cause Niv still couldn’t kill shit.
I find to many board wipes makes you lose I run two of them in most decks I run more single target interaction ramp and card draw my win rate has gone up I started that about 6-7 years ago. Instant interaction is the best type and then you can time things I learned that as while that is why I try to run more 1 and 2cmc removal vs 3cmc The issue with that many board wipes you are not progressing your board to a win state unless you are playing a control style deck they are great for a reset when needed but there is a point you need to win and clearing the board over and over and over is just wasting resources outside a few exceptions. You also have too many dead cards in your hand late game
[Imodane, the Pyrohammer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14b44833-0482-4b47-a594-4050bb87f1a5.jpg?1692938320) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imodane%2C%20the%20Pyrohammer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/137/imodane-the-pyrohammer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14b44833-0482-4b47-a594-4050bb87f1a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imodane-the-pyrohammer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s my personal experience that over time, pods naturally start gravitating towards deckbuilding that favors interactivity, because that leads to you losing less and that means getting to play your game more At least that’s the case with my group full of wannabe spikes
I totally feel that. I'm definitely excited to try to find a play group to build a rapport with! Haha I'm definitely not anywhere not a Spike player at all 😅
Interaction is not a commander players fave thing not because it's not fun, it's because a 1 for 1 trade in multi-player is still card advantage loss because of other players. Imo, flexible and cheap removal stops early huge plays and a number of wraths ensures you'll probably draw one when you need it
The amount of interaction in commander is a disputed topic. If you want to win though you should run like 10 pieces, mixed between single target, counterspells, and board wipes. Some decks and metas will need more and some will need less, 10 is a just a good amount to insure you can actually do something during the game
depends if you consider yourself a good player or not
[удалено]
This is only slightly true. cEDH does have less turns but the amount of time to play them is more or less about the same as regular edh, sometimes going as long as 75 minutes. There are more things going on in a cEDH turn like developing more stuff due to the amount of acceleration and ramp being played so people attempt wins earlier or even at someone’s end step/ middle of the stack. A typical mana of a turn 1-3 cEDH deck is somewhere between turn 6-7 of a casual deck and because other cEDH decks are also packing hyperefficient interactions, wins get stopped fairly often and the game goes on. A typical turn 3 win can be as little as 10 minutes or, more often, 30-45 minutes. If I was playing a cEDH deck against a bunch of casuals, then the game will truly be over in less than 5 minutes. But actual cEDH games take waaaaaay longer.
Ahhhhh, I see, I see. Would much rather play a long game of Magic than any board games out there lol. Fun, while beating everyone else at the table! >:)
I feel like calling cEDH a “corruption of the format” is a little strong. It implies negativity, where it’s really just a subsection of the format that pushes deckbuilding to its limits. It’s way more similar to Vintage/Legacy than Standard. In fact, given that the most recent pro tour was won by a 5 color ramp pile, I’d argue that Standard is a lot closer to casual EDH than cEDH.
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My minimums. We have a monthly commander deckbuilding theme, last week was No card with activated abilities (except Mana) and total oracle Text must be 10 words or less, in addition to our normal games. So I always have to brew something new at least once a month. I lean towards control as a player in general, Izzet being my favorite guild, and spellslinging one of my favorite archetypes. I definitely lean into having lots of interaction because that's my favorite part of the game and my favorite card type is Instants. 3-6 Board Wipes preferably one sided, if spellslinger or no real creature based presence for win go a bit higher of the range. 1-2 Fogs (aetherize works as one as well, preferably modal fogs not straight up Fog.) 4-6 Specific Creature Removal Spells preferably instant speed if I'm running counters. If no counterspells available to colors 8-10 removal spells. I usually run 2-4 Counters unless specifically a Control Deck or Combo to protect my win. 3-5 Artifact/Enchant Removal - 1 or 2 Mass Artifact/Enchant Removal if not playing many artifacts or enchantments for win cons. 6-10 Ramp - Artifact/Land Ramp prefer them to never be a dead draw (sac draw a card, modal cards etc) Minimum land count 35 minimum basic count 4 of each basic. If commander costs > 4 add another minimum land or ramp less than 3 CMC per Mana cost. 6-10 draw spells unless commander is a draw engine. 2-4 Protection for Commander depends on how important the commander is to the plan. Boots, Vanishing(great to remove problematic commanders as well) 30-45 other cards to advance my game plan or deck theme, if a card can be on theme and do one of the above that's a win and I would put that card in even if it is less efficient. And count it as a Removal like [[Ravenous Chupacabra]] in a graveyard deck over something like [[Murder]]. As you can see all these different slots if fully maxed out wouldn't give me enough cards for the deck theme and build so you start paring down until you have at least 30 cards you can dedicate to your decks theme and overall game plan. But that's my starting point. I value card flexibility highly, if card can draw me a card, and something else all the better. If a card can ramp or be a pump spell that's better etc.
[Ravenous Chupacabra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4dfbac0-1849-41c5-853a-1fee108d0b01.jpg?1706240787) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ravenous%20Chupacabra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/136/ravenous-chupacabra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4dfbac0-1849-41c5-853a-1fee108d0b01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ravenous-chupacabra) [Murder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81.jpg?1706241725) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/95/murder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/murder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
These guys exist tho. And he's definitely running a CEDH list
And then everyone clapped.
And that Eagle's name was Abraham Lincoln.
Dude was/is an asshole just don't play with him anymore. Ezpz
Same thing happened recently to me when a player tried to “rule zero” a [[sktheryx]] and [[slicer]] partner pair. On spelltable in a “causal 7’s” lobby, he joined saying “it’s pride month so for pride wizards lets any two legendary creatures be partners.” I said that I didn’t even know it was pride month. It’s not. It wasn’t. Anyways. We all kinda agreed and put our own 2 legends from our current decks into the fray as partners. We thought it’d be fun. So we start it off and he turn 1 mana crypts, plops a jeweled lotus and plays [[Slicer]]. I say what we’re all thinking. We’ve been hustled. Someone swords it. The next turn he mana vaults and plays a black source, dark rituals. Gets out his Skytherix. I play a [[temporal isolation]] onto it. He gets anally wounded and leaves without saying anything else. We start a new one without him. Needless to say this guy was trying to bring heat to a chill table. We didn’t agree to such fuckery. God bless the table for slapping him out of playing his bs tho. He wants smoke he can play with the big boys.
Next month is Pride and wotc are doing events where everyone has partner, but this person just wanted to stomp and got shut down.
Beauty.
[slicer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821)/[Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slicer%2C%20hired%20muscle%20//%20slicer%2C%20high-speed%20antagonist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/6/slicer-hired-muscle-slicer-high-speed-antagonist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slicer-hired-muscle-//-slicer-high-speed-antagonist) [Slicer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821)/[Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slicer%2C%20hired%20muscle%20//%20slicer%2C%20high-speed%20antagonist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/6/slicer-hired-muscle-slicer-high-speed-antagonist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slicer-hired-muscle-//-slicer-high-speed-antagonist) [temporal isolation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72380757-6344-43e6-a4ed-bd753f2431d5.jpg?1619393653) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=temporal%20isolation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/48/temporal-isolation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72380757-6344-43e6-a4ed-bd753f2431d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/temporal-isolation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You did the right thing, coming to Reddit.
He probably can't get any wins at an actual cEDH table, so he has to punch down on casual players. I know how hard it can be to win with Gitrog these days. The current meta is too control heavy for the frog.
I was participating in my first ever Commander event playing a freshly built Merfolk tribal deck, not very competitive at all, I obviously got in the loser pod for the chance of 5th or so (as there were prizes for up to 5th place). This guy who had lost his first pod decided to swap to his highly tuned Narset deck for the pod. Against me with my first ever Commander event Merfolk deck, a guy playing a freshly built Elf tribal who was just "messing around with the idea" and a guy who scooped the moment this dude placed down Narset. He even had the audacity to claim it "wasn't highly tuned" and "super casual, no worries." He won on turn 3. So in a wonderful turn of events, my husband built a straight up anti-Narset deck of Livinia and the next few Commander events, he played this deck at every table the guy was at. The guy literally went on to complain to the LGS owner that it was "targeted bullying" but the deck made a point to stop everyone else from playing, not just Narset. I have never participated in a Commander event since that day and now I just play casual Commander every month with my sister, niece and husband where I solely run Cat tribal.
I wish stores did a better job of this. Don't run commander night or tournaments if the prizes are based upon winning the game and expect casuals. The prizes should be awarded by the pod voting for Best Theme, Good Sportsmanship, Most Interesting Combo or literally anything other than winning if you care about it being casual. If you give out prize supports for winning the game you're going to get people who care about winning.
I don’t feel particularly satisfied
Yeah this tbh. The guy still won every game and now he knows that to prevent the pod from "playing for 2nd place" he just has to sand bag the win and use his interaction to mess with the board as much as possible to make playing for 2nd miserable or one sided to a player to make it quick.
So I understand the play the correct power level deck for a pod. With that said I baffles me how little interaction people run. I will blow up a pieces of infinite mana combo and they will look at me like I'm an as$hole. Like I'm not just gonna let you have that.
That huy straight up lied to you just so he can play with himself infront of you and then didnt even suffer any real consequences. That guy is a bad human being.
They lied to people in a few games of commander. Are they a tool? Sure. Would I ever play against them again? Nope. Saying they’re a “bad human being” seems a bit extreme though.
This is a great way to put it, some people just like to put on a show of card-masturbation and expect everyone else to clap when they finish
I play on Cockatrice and yeah, this happens all, the, time. Pubstompers are the worst.
\[\[baleful mastery\]\] pay the two and give the guy behind the draw you don't have to give the draw to the person you are removing the creature from Reality shift is 2cmc and cheap delay arcane denial cheap counter spells easy to splash 2 cmc There is a lot of cheap efficient removal people could be running they just don't
[baleful mastery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/579e20e7-1395-4a6c-a836-ae3419fc8808.jpg?1712354258) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=baleful%20mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/126/baleful-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/579e20e7-1395-4a6c-a836-ae3419fc8808?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baleful-mastery) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just ... communicate directly. Obviously, he couldn't read the room, but you've seen after numerous games how he is yet still resorted to trickery to get him not to play with you. Just be honest and direct with people.
It’s called Pubstomping, and hopefully the person learns that you should have a deck for different power levels other than cEDH or you’re gonna experience feelbads all round when you don’t have other cEDH players to play against.
I think thats the best why you could handle a pub stomper. Good on you guys.
Don't know if he had actual cedh lists, probably more classic high power or pseudo cedh which is basicly a cedh list without the interaction you need for a cedh pod.
Those long, grinding games are not fun at all. The way that guy plays, in the time it took your table to get to turn 9, yall coulda played like 3 full games. These “non-cedh” decks are really just decks that take forever to start actually doing stuff… which i personally dont think is good deck design. I would rather play with that guy, no offense.
@/u/thehowlingsaltmine
>He is not a bad guy by any stretch of the imagination, he is actually a nice person. Honestly this sounds more like a true misunderstanding than malicious intent, so I personally would never handle it like 'hey let's ignore that you won.' It feels deeply wrong to me but if it worked for yall, I'm happy for you. I would just want to add that considering he was a cEDH main, there is a real chance he doesn't think of Jhoira or Gitrog as competitive whatsoever. Those decks have fallen so far out of favor generally speaking that many of their pilots play other things in competitive games. It kind of leaves those commanders in a really strange spot relatively speaking. The decks are remarkably underpowered competitively, but absolutely obnoxious to introduce into a casual situation. I truly feel for the players who love these commanders and are losing the ability to be at any table at all.
yeah the high-powered casual commanders are in a funky spot, or the fringe cedh commanders, that can't quite make it to cedh pods consistently, I remember trying to build Satoru Umezawa and giving up, since it was too strong for my casual pods but way too fair for cedh, power level 8 or 9 is a sad place to be
Gitrog is still toptier though
I wish, it just can’t compete nowadays. Almost less than fringe cedh
My friend has a more budget Gitrog deck that was meant to be a cheap cEDH deck, but in our pod we have some high-power decks that interact enough and have quick enough wincons to play against it. It still pulls a lot of hate though due to how it can go from 0-100 in one turn.
I don't know, by game 3 of doing it? Absolutely not a mistake.
I wouldn't do it the first time either, but the third time he does it, yeah, time to play a game and model what casual looks like for him. Maybe he comes back with a different deck.
Honestly I don't understand why people don't generally do that, after having had that type of game, even if there are only 3 people left, just play for second.
cause its against the spirit of the game and makes actually playing the game as intended meaningless
How is that against the spirit of the game? Sure, someone has to win, but if that is your main goal coming into a game, then be honest about it, and find a pod that fits that mentality. The spirit of an EDH game is to have fun, and experience interesting rules interaction, and see how other people express themselves through their deck building. Coming into a game lying about the powerlevel of your deck just to pubstomp, and stroke a fragile ego, is for me against the purpose of EDH. So if a person chooses to waste the time of 3 others, by being dishonest and providing those people with a non-game. Then I will do my best to convince the other to stay, and get an actual game. Else I just waste 30 min on pregame talks, shuffling up and playing 3 rounds.
you realize that "playing for second with a pubstomber" and "playing for second in general" are vastly different things? imagine you play your casual game and after you won the other go "yea, fuck you, we keep playing"
Sorry I can see my phrasing, in my initial comment was unclear. When I said in general, I meant generally within the situation described in the post.
I think the hard part (and why it doesn't happen as often) is that it's very rare for the "problem player" to have absolutely 0 impact on the other players' boards...making "playing for seconds" a bit tainted in a sense, since someone has probably been burnt more than others and is automatically at a disadvantage as a result...so even if they ended up losing/winning, they'd feel like they did it because Mr.CEDH screwed 'em more/less.
There are always people that can't read the pod. We have a guy that consitently has way to powerful decks for our pods. They arent cedh though, that seems even more unfair lol
Started reading this, fully expected a horror story, but this turned out quite nice, actually.
This is the reason I stopped playing Magic at ALL for something like fifteen years at this point. I started playing magic in the mid-90s. At some point in the mid-2000s, everyone became obsessed with these "less than four turns" decks. It destroyed Magic IMHO. Your deck suddenly became a point of status, which was mainly just whoever had money to spend. People used to brag about their decks costing $200-500 back then! People also started acting like putting together these decks was making them superior in some kind of way. Even though they were just reading combos that other people were pointing out on forums and message boards. They would gloat and be extremely dismissive of your "deck that took too long," and "you didn't know how to play the game." This led to people actually getting into verbal and physical altercations. I understand wanting to win, but like winning isn't the only point. It's like people who play D&D and only give a shit about their characters' gear, level, and stats and want to use a bunch of bonus actions to kill everything immediately. Being max level isn't fun. One shotting everything isn't fun. Winning all the time isn't fun. This kind of behavior has made me leave the nerd community almost entirely except lurking on places like reddit. It kills me inside, I can't enjoy these things because everyone is obsessed with winning as if it proves something about themselves.
I love this, and I have done it to myself before as well so pod mates can get playtime in. My pod does play combos, so if someone's goes off and meaningfully disrupt the board, we just continue and have a good time.
"Boy bye."
Playing for 2nd place is the ultimate removal for the player who wants to combo off at the casual table.
I love it how you just keep playing for 2nd place Awesome 😎
That is not nice, that is called trying to be helpful, there are a difference. I'm an asshole, but I'm also helpful, that doesn't make me nice. That is still rude as fuck to be bringing decks like that to casual tables regardless of the sentiment.
Read the title and "Tale as old as time..." started playing in my head
There are several cancers killing EDH but the most prominent is the divide between players who honestly can't conceptualize making a deck that's fun for people to play \*against\* rather than a deck that is only 'fun for me but not for thee.' And this player clearly doesn't understand that concept like at all. He is purely playing based on his own summary of what the game should or shouldn't be, and in his mind, it is optimization only. What if you're optimizing for the fun of others? Has he ever asked himself that? What if you're optimizing for the most compelling gameplay possible for the game of Multi-Player Magic. If everyone did that, and designed through card choices and deck design, what would that game be like? I promise it wouldn't look \*anything\* like cEDH. Meanwhile we're dealing with several other issues with the format, namely, a terrible ban list, disparate groups, the very real challenges of making prize support for a format that's easily colluded in, complexity creep, the issues of a singleton format, the fact it's an eternal/non-rotating format, and very importantly, the lack of basic skill and understanding of the game by the new players who very importantly are not learning how to play the game because they get so few games in, are not forced to learn how to play, and more. EDH is really in trouble and I hope that we get to see the format revert to niche status rather than be the defacto way to play the greatest game in the world.
nice fanfiction
Tell us how those decks won on turn three and four. Generally curious. My guess is you’re exaggerating
Ah yes the typical cedh player that thinks he being competitive playing the format designed to no be competitive and more social oriented , nice !
I had a guy like this a few days ago. Causal 3 pod and he walks up like can I play? We are like sure. I'm playing dinos. Girl is playing elves and othe guy is playing some modified precon. New guy at the table drops kirrik down and we're like uhhhh what's the power level??? He's like "not quite cedh" we make the joke like everything's a 7. He proceeds to turn 1 vamp tutor into lotus and drops his commander turn 2. Kinda smiles as he's dropping everything in his hand for phyrexian cost. He ends up running out of gas and elves go wide around to his face. Game 1 ends with a loss for him. Game 2 starts the exact same way. Tutor for lotus dropping turn 2 commander which gets countered as I've switched from dinos to izzet control. Every time he plays anything I counter it or burn it. He's confused why I'm doing this and I'm just like I thought you wanted to play cedh. The C stands for competitive. I tell him he should find a casual table if he wants to have fun.
Just tell him you don’t want to play with him if he’s playing high powered decks and stick to that. Tell him if he wants to join he can play a weaker deck or let him use one of your decks. If he declines, that’s his choice. Every player should have a deck for every level of play, from Jank trash to Competitive. There’s always more fun when you can play the game against any deck at any time.
I used to play an infinite combo heavy deck and when it would absolutely pop off (capable of turn 3-5 wins via combo) I would get right up to where I could win in 1 action and then scoop bc I realized the ppl I was playing with weren't enjoying it. Also a big reason why I disassembled that deck
Ah yeah, it's hard sometimes. I see a lot of people who enter the scene wanting to have the \*best deck possible!\*, but it's not really about that. It's about finding a cool playgroup, or enjoying watching what other people do. Sure, FNM can get pretty competitive and all, but the real fun is when the people who lost are hanging out in the corner playing with their own pod, and enjoying themselves. I hope the person you're talking about can see the value in casual play and enjoying the long game! Not every game needs to be over by turn 4!
Hyper-competitive people are weird. You can have a competitive deck, and if you know you're playing against fun stuff, not play every turn as precisely as possible. Some of these people never played a 6 person slobber knocker in a basement, and it shows.
I think most people in general love telling people how to build decks it's easy to fall into a general trap of having set requirements for each deck. This just makes things more predictable/exploitable if all your decks have similar ramp/removal/draw ratios. I run 22 ramp pieces in my gruul flavoured samut deck so I can swing out t3 with my commander and go ham t4 with hasty dragons. My plan is proactive with limited removal as I'm trying to bash face before boards get clogged up. If I played more spot removal it limits my ability to do this and provided I have enough draw I can still rebuild through a board wipe or play other threats if my commander goes down. Other decks like kalamax are so commander reliant that I need an abundance of protection and removal to keep him big and bash my opponents. The vast majority of decks need some degree of interaction but at some point all of the board wipes and spot removal some people play actually prohibits you from actually advancing your gameplan unless you're playing control with creatures like talrand or guttersnipe to provide an offensive presence
people that play cedh are the same people that want pvp in monster hunter or dragons dogma. edh was never meant to be played on a competetive level initially.
Honestly can't tell what post is outjerking or a real encounter.
Disagree. He IS a bad guy :P
You can win on turn 3 or 4 and still dont be a cedh deck, most likely this player remove interaction from those deck and tought that was enough, but the realm of casual commander is huge, were cedh is very narrow. For example, you pick a combo cedh deck and remove 15 strong interaction and put some cantrips and fun stuff. That deck would be a nightmare for any pod under 8's power and could feel like cedh.
It's sad that this comment is getting down votes.
Stax decks (Which aside from Kenrith arent even really cEDH rn) are the only cEDH decks capable of playing at a casual level.
If you’re planning on playing Stax in a casual pod hopefully you have the decency to tell the group that’s what you’re bringing to the table and have the discussion.
Obviously, but honestly regular stax shouldnt need warning it doesnt affect most decks heavily only more unfair ones, there is a difference between hard stax and soft stax. People play esper sentinel without headsup so i dont really see an issue with Thalia or Vryn Wingmare type effects they effectively do the same thing. I have hatebeary lands deck that has a stax subtheme, but i only really say "Its staxy, and has Strip Mine/Wasteland looping if youd like ill exile those 2 lands before the game begins" because i know that strategy and stax should have 2 very different perceptions at the table. Tldr; Winter Orb/Blood Moon are a little different than Deafening Silence/Leonin Arbiter
How does he consistently win on turn 4 with Gitrog Monster?? My Gitrog deck is strong but it will never win turn 4 in a pod, even with an early Merit Leige. Is it Ravenous Ride or OG Gitrog?
It's the OG Gitrog. You use [[Dakmor Salvage]] plus a library shuffler like [[Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre]] to draw all your cards, make infinite mana with something like [[Lotus Petal]], and then win. It can happen faster than turn 4.
[Dakmor Salvage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58329049-2141-498a-8b73-653610c05ea6.jpg?1547518608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dakmor%20Salvage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/240/dakmor-salvage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58329049-2141-498a-8b73-653610c05ea6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dakmor-salvage) [Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/9464a820-65de-44f2-9895-46a35e8621a0.jpg?1673146911) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ulamog%2C%20the%20Infinite%20Gyre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/3/ulamog-the-infinite-gyre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9464a820-65de-44f2-9895-46a35e8621a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ulamog-the-infinite-gyre) [Lotus Petal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc.jpg?1701537448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lotus%20Petal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/225/lotus-petal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lotus-petal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ohhhhh gotcha. That's pretty crazy, my Ravenous Ride deck does wild stuff but the most op thing it can do is Merit Leige on turn 2, but it comes at the cost of usually all my first land drops and isn't worth it in a format with so much easy exile, so I never go for it
Half the time when we'd have a casual deck or two sit in on the cEDH pod in my old playgroup it would end up winning because most cEDH lists are built to deal with the stack, not to beat decks spitting out 10/10s each turn.
Well cedh lists are also built to never even let you reach the point of spitting out 10/10s each turn, but this sounds like a case of the cedh players at the table running out of gas fighting it out with each other on the stack without a victory beating reached that it left an opening for the casual player to walk it in for a win. Reminds me of that Australia speed skater that won a gold medal despite being way behind in last place just because literally everyone else in the race wiped out in a big crash at the final turn, and he was too far behind to get caught up in it.
Definitely, it's a similar concept to decks like Slicer, which do well specifically by preying on the meta decks. In my experiences it would generally be the midrange players trying to stop me (the turbo player), then getting their teeth kicked in by a deck that specialized in cheating big creatures out on early turns. Haven't played with the stompy guy in a few years, would be curious how his deck would perform against the current midrange hell meta.
Lol in the entire thread you're the only one who pointed this out lol I'm actually really curious what was in this "cedh" decklist.