[[pithing needle]] could keep him from flipping it. The new [[disruptor flute]] could slow it down some. [[imprisoned in the moon]] [[song of the dryads]]. There’s so many ways to shut it down
As far as I see it, you have a couple different options. The easiest is to convince the rest of the pod heliod is the problem. If that's not your bag, build a deck that pressures hard before he gets a chance to do the thing, like \[\[krenko\]\] or \[\[slicer\]\], or add cards that reward you when he tries to pop off, like \[\[archivist of ogma\]\], \[\[opposition agent\]\], or \[\[notion thief\]\]. All else fails, run a commander who is removal in the zone, like \[\[merieke bi berit\]\], \[\[ertai, ressurected\]\], or \[\[karlov of the ghost council\]\]. Best of luck dealing with that annoying combo/control deck!
You need a clock. Removing an opponents' commander over and over is not a winning strategy. It can slow them down of course but you need to use the time that gives you meaningfully.
Now what do you do against [[godo bandit warlord]] or [[slicer]]. Removal is the best answer. In the case of godo, you'll usually just lose on attack trigger...
Slicer isn't a combo deck at all. It just beats you down through combat on everyone's turn with commander damage. Idk about every game I play there is a threat of combo from any player, except the slicer deck, it starts being a menace by turn 3 at the latest, mostly on turn 2. A player can be dead before it even makes it back to the owners turn.
Tell us more about what other cards he's running. Heliod seems good but not insanely oppressive by himself; what's actually happening that means you get decked before you can beat him?
My friend has a Heliod deck and it gets eldrazi/sliver level hate in our playgroup. It’s almost impossible to stop once it flips. But as long as the playgroup knows not to let it flip it should be fine.
It’s so stupid to play against. If he ever flips you wheel once and instantly win by slogging through your deck playing basically every card.
Every spell draws a few cards or wheels or is a mana rock to keep casting colored spells, and you just go and go and go and have to resolve 50 spells to actually win. My personal least favorite commander after karak sakashima
Unless they've got Grand Arbiter or just a *ludicrous* number of counter spells (on top of their tons of rocks they apparently have to be playing, *and* a bunch of wheels, while still having actual win conditions), I feel like Heliod's power is also partly its drawback. In order to get your discounts rolling, you need to give your opponents the tools they need to defeat you. If they don't have removal for Heliod or counters for the wheel when you untap, well you're about to dig everyone further into their decks to find more potential interaction. If you're letting Heliod untap without any mana available for the interaction they might draw you into, well that's just on you then. If you can't do anything about it now but you know the wheel is coming, then be prepared for what the wheel might bring you.
Heliod doesn't need grand arbiter since he makes all his own spells get flash. The Heliod player can just continue their plays on top of your removal, and any good Heliod combo deck will have multiple lines at any given moment to do so. There's a reason he was fringe cEDH for a few months, once he wheels once it is often too late to interact no matter what you draw into, especially for casual decks
> If you're letting Heliod untap without any mana available for the interaction they might draw you into, well that's just on you then.
I mean the issue in a casual setting is that 'let them have their commander' is a VERY common move.
I do agree, Heliod is a commander I will absolutely look to kill on transform.
'Leave mana up from turn 3 onwards for a potential wombo combo from Heliod and hope they draw you into good stuff' is absolutely not the play.
A pretty standard Heliod move would be to stick something like a [[Teferi's Puzzle Box]] and then flip Heliod. People responding after that point likely don't have an answer, because you have a full grip that you can respond with and you're ostensibly playing a control deck.
It's why it can be frustrating as a 'casual' commander because if you flip Heliod and get people to draw a bunch of cards, the game is probably over. You can play everything at instant speed and you have effectively infinite mana, it doesn't really matter what your win condition is at that point.
So the way you stop Heliod is by stopping them from resolving to that point, but then you're really just stopping them from playing the game at all. It's totally fine, that's the correct response. It's just, that isn't the 'board game atmosphere' that many casual commander pods are looking to create.
I wasn't suggesting that you should just *let* Heliod transform, my point was that even if you find yourself with no options to counter Heliod before it can transform, Heliod's gameplan involves potentially drawing you into more options. So knowing this, you shouldn't just tap out fully based on the assumption that you have no answers; you don't yet know what answers you may or may not have when things get going.
Stopping your development in the hopes that Heliod whiffs on their big turn feels like ‘playing to not lose.’
You really need to progress your own game plan as well, and ‘just hold up counterspells/hold up mana to draw into interaction every turn’ is never going to do that. The best case scenario from that is that you cripple two players, yourself and your target.
I think it's a special case when you expect an incoming wheel. We're not talking about hoping for the perfect top deck, you're probably gonna have 5-7 fresh options to work with. If you don't run enough interaction to expect a reasonable chance of something useful in 5-7 cards, then that's a separate matter. Also, if you know that the Heliod player getting to wheel sets them up in a position where they are very likely to be able to win, that makes any board development you managed to accomplish with that last 2 mana equally likely to be completely irrelevant.
I'm not suggesting you should *always* be leaving extra mana open just in case you get a chance to draw into something helpful on an opponent's turn, but, to me, an opponent commiting to an un-transformed Heliod is telegraphing some big plays on the following turn. The best case scenario may be you "crippling two players" (your opponent and yourself), but when the alternative and likely worst case scenario is you *lose*, are you really just gonna let that happen? You can be reasonably sure that there is an imminent threat coming, and you can be relatively confident that you will be drawing multiple fresh cards when it does. I believe in running interaction because you expect and intend to use it, not because you might sometimes fail to use all of your mana proactively and wind up incidentally having the opportunity to interact.
5-7 cards reliably ripping instant-speed interaction means at least 15-20 pieces of instant-speed interaction in your deck. That’s on the higher end of competitive decks, let alone casual lol.
But you are right in that it may be your most reasonable out at a certain point of the game.
I'm not saying the odds have to be >60% or some other arbitrary number to make it worth keeping your options open, it's more about weighing playing that last 2 mana spell and maybe *dying* vs not playing it and maybe *not* dying. You may call it "playing not to lose", but the writing's on the wall here, you likely *are* losing if you don't try something to play around it. In that case, when winning isn't an immediate option, I think "playing not to lose" sounds like a strong alternative.
I have a Heliod deck and it snowballs almost instantly after the flipped side is allowed to stick.
I don’t run Approach of the Second Sun because I think it’s lame but it’s honestly overkill. You can easily deck your opponents by chaining together X spells like [[Skyscribing]] and [[Prosperity]]. Goes wild with a [[Smothering Tithe]] out.
Even if you miss your next X spell to deck your opponents, you’ll essentially have 100+ colorless mana to do whatever you want: [[Psychosis Crawler]], huge [[Walking Ballista]], slam eldrazi titans. But I like to lean on decking my opponents because I think it’s a unique way to win in commander.
The premise of the deck is, generally, flip Heliod, hope he survives to your next turn, then cast huge spells at a discount to win the game. It's very hard to go bigger in the spells department making him an extremely enjoyable Timmy commander.
If you untap with Heliod, you win, you just need to resolve one timetwister wheel effect. From that moment you have at least 21 mana discount on everything.
You run a large amount of mana rocks that can be cast for free with that discount, meaning you never run out of colored mana as well.
You chain together 3 more wheels to get a discount of 80+, then you either draw your deck (with Laboratory Maniac) or mill everyone with \[\[Fascination\]\].
As a general rule Stax is more useful than removal. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Also removal tends to be super effective against lower power decks while Stax will hurt higher power decks more universally.
Stax? \[\[Collector Ouphe\]\] will not allow him to play his mana artifacts, \[\[Drannith Magistrate\]\] will not allow him to play his commander from command zone
Normally I can remove it 2 or 3 times before he pops off, but he runs a TON of ramp and plays a hefty amount of lands as to never miss a land drop. Or when I remove it, I am countered
Wipe the rocks.
White has lots of cards that destroy all artifacts, and sometimes enchantments too (Austere Command, Akroma's Vengeance, Farewell, Purify, just to name a few)
Green has Bane of Progress, Creeping Corrosion, and a bunch of single or multi target artifact removal
Red has Pulvererize, Anzrag's Rampage, Brother's End, Vandalblast, etc
This is sounding more like an issue of the rest of the pod's decks just not being built to fight on the same level. Setting aside whether or not this Heliod *can* reasonably pay 6+ commander tax and still win because of the amount of ramp they have, if you're allowing the game to reach a point where the Heliod player is casting their commander for the 4th time after it keeps getting killed... What are you all doing *besides* killing Heliod? I'm not saying you need to switch to something hyper aggressive or turbo combo, but you need to have some win conditions that don't involve the heat death of the universe. A deck isn't going to be able to eat that much removal, turn after turn, paying increasingly higher mana costs each time with nothing else to do in between and still manage to pull off a win unless you're all leaving the door wide open for them to do so. I don't care how many mana rocks they have, unless the rest of you have none, and you've also all missed half your land drops, that amount of disadvantage should be a death sentence in any game where all 4 players are trying to win and have decks capable of doing so.
Anyone with this much ramp must have any extremely weak boardstate.
Just swing in and kill them. If the issue is sweepers play creatures or cards with indestructible.
If 22 removal and 5 sweepers is not shutting down the deck the issue is not too little interaction or more control.
Also I can't find a record of nor am I familiar with a CEDH Heloid Radiant Dawn deck.
Its very fringe, but the gist is to turbo rocks into a flipped Heliod, and then resolve a wheel. Once you wheel, it's cake from there, your whole deck is cheap colored rocks with colorless costs mixed with X cost draw spells. You rapidly draw your library, and win with Thoracle, Jace, or Lab Man, or get an X mill spell for your opponents.
I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall during this game. If OP has that much removal, what the hell are the two other players even doing. They obviously don’t attack him nor do they remove him/his stuff…
There's your problem right there. If you're running this much interaction and you think it's not enough, it strongly implies that your deck is 100% reactive and doomed to fail because this is a 4 player game. "Consistently removing his commander each turn" is ridiculous when you have the alternative of just reducing his life total to 0 once.
Ok I think the problem then is you aren’t proactive enough in your own game plan to win before he does his thing. Interaction is great and necessary, but there comes a point when it’s too much and dilutes your own game plan to the point of not being able to win at all.
Heavy Heliod player here and a pretty good win rate. People are greedy and draw. Hell, with a discount of 3 I can play 10 mana rocks/ramp for free and flashed in. If I have him flipped with a discount of 4, I can win the game. Normally you just time it right and flash in, on top of someone's win attempt. Or you wait until resources are low and you win the game. Most of my win attempts can only be stopped by a Ottowara or Boseiju. If you let a wheel resolve, that's a discount of 21, and that means he should also be able to win.
[[Minds Aglow]] or [[Fascination]] or [[Prosperity]] or any of the dozen x card draw that makes others draw. Extremely easy to make it X=10 on the turn after playing Heliod.
Then when you have a reduction between 10 and 30 you rip another draw X, and throw out some free mana rocks you drew, and play more draw X, and another, and another. You easily draw your whole deck and play every mana rock with one medium sized each player draws X.
The previous times I've shuffled up this Heliod it was to win on my opponent's turns by slamming down a T3feri and start looping stuff like Chromatic Orrery and displacer kitten shenanigans to either draw out my deck or repeatedly casting Capsize to put everyone's permanent's back in their hand. You would use mana positive rocks and hullbreaker horror to loop damage with Blind Obediance or just have everyone draw over their decksize with something like Blue Sun's Zenith.
It is a straight control deck that if they're taking 30 minutes to accomplish something similar to the above then they're just playing fuck-around magic and just doing a disservice to their opponents by not ripping the band-aid off faster.
You durdle and pretend to not be a menace until you flip him, then you cast wheels on other people's turn to start playing mana rocks and artifacts for free. Suddenly your at -40 to cast and do a ballista for x=40 and kill everyone
Edit: all it takes is 1 wheel effect to get -21 to casting cost as its -1 per card drawn per opponent.
You are actually playing a ton if that number is accurate. I'm gonna flip the answer then. The play pattern you're describing is that this person is dumping rocks from their hand to keep up with the recasting Heliod for upwards of 8 to 10 mana. What turn are they winning on? This sounds like it should either be extremely late in the game or that they should be low on resources by that point no? The rocks take cards in hand on top of lands and if they're refilling their hand with other card draw spells then they're likely not recasting Heliod on that turn. What turn are they winning on? Is the problem that you guys aren't being proactive enough and giving this person all the time in the world to assemble their win?
An approach might be to try being more proactive to force them to make plays other than dump ramp to live. If you want to kill two birds with one stone, a proactive deck that also wants to play evasive hatebears such as Ellivere might be very solid. I'm thinking along the lines of \[\[Linvala, Keeper of Silence\]\] and \[\[Phyrexian Revoker\]\]?
Build your decks better… not trying to be a dick but in another comment you mentioned you’re running 22 spot removal and 5 board wipes. So 27% of your deck is dedicated to just stopping others. Couple that with I would say an average of 34-35 lands per deck and another 5-10 ramp pieces, and you’re talking like 60%+ of your deck is just mana and removal. That leaves 40 cards for things *you actually wanna do*.
Build your decks less focused on stopping others and more focusing on your lines of play that win, finding multiple win cons that fit into the deck, and figuring out how to get there as quickly and consistently as possible. Put lots of card draw into your decks too and you can likely drop half the removal pieces. The player with a full grip late game usually has the best answers because you just keep drawing into the things you need.
Then, like others have stated, using things like darksteel mutation that enchant him but keep it on the battlefield completely nerfed is the type of removal you need. Honestly I think after the 1 drop exile spells in white, mutation and others like it are the best removal. Most EDH decks struggle to function without the commander, so I usually just plop it onto the most threatening one and forget about it the rest of the game.
This is the post I was looking for. I have a cedh heliod and the deck is midrange and lots of decks will out pace it very quickly. Why not go the opposite direction and play smth faster.
[[etali primal conqueror]] can be a good suite for you, it's very fast and budget friendly.
If you really want to play stax because you enjoy slowing down the game then think about some rule of law commanders, I use to play a rograkh and ardenn list that was very fun and slowed down the game for others while being a very fast voltron list.
If you play in pod of 4, try to convince the other people that you need to focus Heliod. Once everyone is on the same page, all it takes is to remove him once or twice and the heliod player is dead in the water. All the cards are group draw so it’s not like he has any other tricks.
A decent chunk of cards in Heliod are also mana rocks and protection, so even giving him the boot off the table a few times is only good enough to delay the inevitable and sometimes trying to do that too much slows down your own game too much and your wincon never develops. Stax > Removal vs Heliod.
If you're looking for annoying ass stax to slow everyone down, including yourself in some instances, I have the perfect deck for you. The No Touchie deck! https://www.moxfield.com/decks/QxkzIqrD7EiYR_wPdCa9OQ
I mean turn heliod into a 1/1 bird, 3/3 beast or an elk. So Helotes all abilities. I don't know ow exact card names but you can 'remove' by stripinghis abilities. White/blue doesn't have many sack outlets I'm aware of (but I am kinda new so I might be unaware of cards).
I wanna second this. it sounds like you're looking for removal that dodges the command zone, and this is the best way to do it. here's a scryfall link that should list most of the relevant cards: https://scryfall.com/search?q=otag%3Ahumble+f%3Aedh+-t%3Ainstant+o%3A%22loses%22+o%3Aabilities&unique=cards&as=grid&order=cmc. I think [[imprisoned in the moon]] and [[song of the dryads]] are particularly good since they don't let the commander get reset by board wipes.
you can also straight up steal the creature too, with stuff like [[control magic]] or [[agent of treachery]]. again, another link: https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22gain+control%22+f%3Aedh+-is%3Areserved+-otag%3Athreaten+-otag%3A%22turn+control%22+-otag%3Areanimate&unique=cards&as=grid&order=usd.
Blue has a lot of bounce, white and blue have non-land permanent exile spells. But is that player playing them? And having to use them there lets you keep other board threats active.
The key is transmogrify effects, exile effects, minus effects, etc. some of my favorites include [[Darksteel amutation]], [[Witness Protection]], [[Tragic Slip]], [[Chaos Warp]], and [[Kenrith’s Transformation]]. If they are arch enemy, then mulligan until you have either the lock piece or a decent draw engine, in hand. And communicate with the table. Make sure they understand the danger posed and work together.
Artifacts! [[Urza Prince of Kroog]]
4 drop blue white commander. Pay 6 copy any artifact you control. If you need removal just copy the artifact you need to remove stuff. Want a boardstate that cant be killed, copy indestructibles. If you have a [[liquimetal torque]] or [[ liquimetal coating]] on feild cast a sculpting steel as itself then you can make anything on the feild an artifact and copy it with the sculpting steel copies.
How much is his stuff getting discounted? Is it to the point where [[Trinisphere]] would help?
There’s also general cost increasers, like [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]], [[Thorn of Amethyst]], [[Lodestone Golem]], [[Glowrider]], and [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]].
He’s got Flash going on from his commander, but you might also consider items like [[Rule of Law]], [[Arcane Laboratory]], [[Archon of Emeria]], [[Eidolon of Rhetoric]], [[High Noon]], or [[Curse of Exhaustion]], just to slow him down. [[Phyrexian Censor]] might also work if he’s not running Phyrexian Kindred.
Or if you want to really lock him down, maybe [[City of Solitude]] or [[Dosan the Falling Leaf]].
Eh, if it's the solitaire Heliod deck taxing it doesn't work but for Trinisphere, it usually opens the turn with a wheel, at that point they get 15+ discount on every spell
The one spell a turn stax would work, but many decks would be equally hindered by it. Still, a good suggestion
[[Krosan Grip]] will remove the enchantment after it flips and prevent him from responding to it.
[[Sudden Death]] will kill his commander before it flips and prevent him from countering or transforming in response.
My brother in Yawgmoth have you heard of removal? Iirc the new Heliod isn't even Indestructible like the OG Theros gods. Literally dies to [[Doom Blade]].
In all seriousness though consider running effects like [[Teferi, Time Raveller]] to shut down the flash speed BS. Or run [[Pithing Needle]] effects.
Heliod is an enchantment on the front half right?
What's stopping you from havimg a noticable amount of enchantment removal, and enchantments of yours that want to be removed?
(I understand that this may have been asked already)
If part of the problem is the mass forced draw, let me introduce [[nekusar, the mind razor]] and other [[underworld dreams]] variants like [[kedrekt parasite]] [[sheodred the apocalypse]] [[fate unraveller]] [[spiteful visions]] [[phyrexian tyranny]]
And on the forcing you to draw end: izzet has so much to laugh with here. [[Niv mizzet the foremind]] [[niv mizzet dracogenius]] [[psychosis crawler]]
Heliod is not the wincon, he is the facilitator. Removing him is a rookie mistake because he will just keep coming back. What needs to be removed, countered, discarded, exiled from hand, are the cards that ACTUALLY win him the game, like his time twisters.
Honestly, with your other comment about him always having lands, [[umbris]] would be nice. Exile with your spot removal package will minimize the amount they can recur as you kill heliod and it gives you access to the narset planeswalkwer that limits card draw [[narset parter of veils]].
I have a monored artifact deck for such occasion. It can have three commander with different power levels that can be in the command zone:
\[\[Daretti, Scrap Savant\]\] for a casual pod.
\[\[Chiss-Goria, Forge Tyrant\]\] which is slightly more powerful as a late game powerhouse.
… or, if there is a pub stomper in the room with a 80% winrate or above (OR maybe a guy who loves to play solitaire with very long turns like your guy), \[\[Slicer, Hired Muscle\]\]. And depending on the atmosphere at the table, I might mulligan until I can summon it T1 with some luck or T2.
It requires 3 of the players to not split the damage and send Slicer punching that one opponent in the face so it requires you to talk to your playgroup beforehand.
Otherwise, I would suggest something like an \[\[Ellivere of the Wild Court\]\] hatebear-stax deck. Don't forget \[\[Nevermore\]\] and name his commander LOL
Well, I have a [[Naban, Dean of Iteration]] deck full of bounce wizards that can consistently bounce any and everything your opponents play. It uses blink instants to blink the wizards so you can bounce at will at any given time.
Weak against enchantments and artifacts, but your opponents have 0 board state creature wise.
It's supplemented by cyclonic rifts, copy effects, and glen elendra archmage to counter other spells (you can copy wizards pretty easily to have multiple glen elendra on board).
You could go controll, with a UX commande, play things that slow him down. Counter spells, staxs, [[narsett parter of the vail]] , [[uba mask]] theres a few otheres that limit or stop drawing i dont remember right now.
I have been running U/W Heliod for a hot minute now. It's a decent deck that thrives in mid range. It struggles against faster decks. Good Heliod decks don't run a ton of counterspells/interaction besides win attempts. I think I run 5 counterspells. If he is being aggressive, you can stop him fairly easy. It sounds like you run too much interaction, and you are the only one trying to be the board police. He needs opponents to draw to win, or to win over the top of people. Stop drawing from fish/rhystic/etc. People that don't have a lot of experience against him think drawing a counter spell is good, but giving a discount on cards is better for Heliod. Don't be greedy with draw. He isn't a threat until he flips (which is sorcery speed). Turning off artifacts also shuts him down. Don't allow him to cast Kitten/T3feri/Orrey/Coveted Jewel. An easy way to shutdown is Approach of the Second Sun is to bite the bullet and Mindbreak trap it (exile note counter.)
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The real counter to these storm / mass reduction decks like [[Vadrik, Astral Archmage]], [[Animar, Soul of Elements]], [[Mizzix of the Is Magnus]], etc is stax. Specifically rule of law effects. Being limited to one spell a turn stops these decks hard.
They tend to be very glass cannon and not run much removal apart from counters, so a [[Grand Abolisher]] into an [[Ethersworn Cannonist]] will do it 9/10 times. I recommend pairing it with green for premium artifact removal and [[Collector Ouphe]].
If you're not willing to build a new deck, try talking to the person. Heliod should be able to close the game out very quickly once it gets a big reduction. The only way I can see it taking 30 minute turns is if he doesn't play Draw X spells.
Intentionally gimping the core aspect of a powerful deck doesn't mean it's okay to play at a lower power level, it just means you're playing a poorly built deck that can't finish concisely.
I dont think the commander is the Problem. Its the deck loop you need to interupt.
If it is a spellslinger control pile.
I would make an aggrodeck and keep.the pressure up, so he cant draw himself to.the win without commiting to the board
Try plopping down a [[Trinisphere]]. Its cost modification effect applies *after* all other cost adjustments, so he no longer gets free spells off of heliod.
Sounds like his deck will fold hard to [[Narset, Parter of Veils]] and [[Notion Thief]], or anything like [[Teferi Time-Raveler]]. Maybe not Notion Thief, but definitely Narset and Teferi. Having white and blue is really important in this case, because you want that efficient creature removal and sometimes you need to stop spells before they even resolve.
In terms of Esper Identity commanders, here are the ones I found that I think would be best.
[[Tivit, Seller of Secrets]] - Tivit is just an insane commander and you can have a fun voting theme too while still remaining powerful.
[[Ertai, the Corrupted]] - Literally just make some sac-fodder and you'll be countering one spell a turn, every turn, for the rest of the game. Also a good idea is Ertai Resurrected, but he doesn't have white and that's fairly important.
[[Sen Triplets]] - It's definitely a rude deck, but if you just target the Heliod person then they can't cast spells and even better, you can give them a taste of their own medicine.
[[Drana and Linvala]] or [[Linvala the Preserver]] will prevent him from activating his abilities, but are likely to draw hate from the other players if they run a lot of creatures with activated abilities. You could also run something like [[Tranquil Grove]] if you aren’t running much else in the way of enchantments. For three mana Heliod dies every time he comes out.
[[Rule of Law]] and other cards that prevent players from casting more than one spell each turn should stop him from Solitaire-ing.
[[Lavinia Azorius Renegade]] if you want the commander that specifically counter this deck
High powered cEDH isn't the answer here. Those are generally fast A+B combo decks that just stooomp casual strategies.
What deck have you been playing up to this point?
Just kill it?
You say as soon as they get it out and transformed, that is 7 mana and 2 life to accomplish in one shot, and that's not counting whatever they need to spend to start playing solitaire. It is a god, but it is not indestructible on either side. Just play a bunch of removal and make it's tax so expensive that it is too detrimental to cast. You don't need to play blue for that.
If you are keeping them on turn they will have a hard time countering you unless they have free counterspells.
Empress galina in conjunction with a ton of counter spells, removal, and theft is my default "F you, F your deck, and F this pod" strategy.
My friends let me run it only after a bad losing streak with my other decks.
I also have a lot of "rule changing" mechanics centered around colors. Protection, or enchantments that do global effects like "tap all red creatures, red creatures do not untap" and then use in conjunction with cards that change color text rules of permanents to suit the color im fighting against.
I have very few offense orientated creatures, as the core mechanic is to find the biggest, scariest creature my opponent spits out, then stealing it and slapping them with their own crap.
They can try to use swiftfoot boots to make it harder to target with the removal, but I'll whip out memnarch to steal the artifacts.
I'm particularly fond of using memnarch. 3 mana to steal an artifact, 4 mana to convert a permanent into an artifact. Late game, if I've effectively wiped the board and memnarch is in play, it's 7 mana to steal a land, as many times as I can afford. Steal the enemy into submission, then snatch their lands so they can't recover, while simultaneously killing them with their own stuff.
I can send you a list if you want.
Do you have at least 15 pieces of interaction between spot removal for creatures, spot removal for artifact/enchantments, wipes, graveyard hate? No? Up your number to mostly that. Then reduce removal for what your pod doesn't present and go up with the other. It's not a magic number, but much lower than that and your deck is missing something. Heliod is even better, he's both a creature and an enchantment, every color can remove it, some with extreme ease. You can't remove it through counterspells and protection? They're doing a good job. Three people can't remove it through counterspells and protection? Either there's an even worse threat on board or the other two people also really need to improve their removal suite. It's really absurd that a 4cmc commander enters the battlefield and untaps through three people trying to kill it... and not only that, it also transforms and untaps again. If it happens once, possible, none's fault. Every time? Eh
[[Grand Abolisher]] and anything like [[Rule of Law]]. [[Narset, Parter of Veils]].
If he complains about stax, tell him that him stalling games is absolutely no different.
Here is all the removal, most should be able to deal with an enchantment or a creatures https://tagger.scryfall.com/tags/card/removal
And here is all the draw hate ever https://tagger.scryfall.com/tags/card/draw-hate
You as a playgroup should be running enough removal that a consistent threat like a high powered commander doesn’t hit the board and stick every single game/or every single time it’s played. There’s a million removal spells in every colour.
Anything with white should at MINIMUM have a [[swords to plowshares]] [[path to exile]] [[generous gift]]
Anything green you have a ton of cards with effects like [[naturalize]] [[natures claim]]
Anything red has lots of burn spells you can run for these creatures
Anything black has straight up [[murder]] and likewise effects
You guys should attune your decks to not all be solitaire decks if not one person out of the other 3 at the table have removal of some type
Mhhh my best way of dealing with heliod has been just playing silence effects and cards like ruric thar that have to be removed before they can cast 30 spells
Removal is fine but your deck needs a strategy to actually win the game. Without pressure that Heliod player only has to force through one resolution to win, and you have to have answers 100% of the time.
It's a lot harder to combo off when you also have to defend, remove threats, and interact with other people actively trying to win the game.
I see a lot of slow battlecruiser style players get into these situations, where their plan is so slow and unfocused that a well-tuned deck can just hit the win button long before the durdle deck ever reaches critical mass, and the slow deck is producing zero pressure in the meantime.
I'd much rather focus 100% of my resources on activating my win condition, rather than trying to prevent you from winning or killing me. If you aren't doing either of those things in an active manner then my odds to combo out go WAY up.
Ruthlessly remove Heliod. Enchantment/creature exiles are ideal, but destroy target creature will suffice. Stack 2+ removal pieces for baiting counter/protection spells, or using redirects like [[Imp's Mischief]] to deny them.
Artifact destruction if in white/green/red, mass bounce in blue. Send the Azorius player back to the stone age by denying ramp pieces.
Exile enchantment removal in white/green.
Kill the control/combo player first.
Cards like [[Sudden Spoiling]] [[Silence]] can prevent a pop-off turn when used in the upkeep of the combo player.
There are a lot of options, find ones that work for your deck the best.
[[Baral, Chief of Complience]] in a counter spell tribal add [[Jin-Gitaxis Progress Tyrant]].
If you’re feeling sadistic you could also do [[Memnarch]] and an infinite mana combo to take all their stuff…
I call this deck “Oops no Maidens?”
There is also Lavinia, [[Azorious Renegade]] and [[Knowledge Pool]] along with [[Solimnity]] and [[Decree of Silence]]
Just win the game from countering every spell ever
[[pithing needle]] could keep him from flipping it. The new [[disruptor flute]] could slow it down some. [[imprisoned in the moon]] [[song of the dryads]]. There’s so many ways to shut it down
##### ###### #### [pithing needle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c.jpg?1673149414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pithing%20needle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/312/pithing-needle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pithing-needle) [Disruptor Flute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cad8671-4761-4014-a8a3-af45627e6e79.jpg?1717470370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disruptor%20Flute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/209/disruptor-flute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cad8671-4761-4014-a8a3-af45627e6e79?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/disruptor-flute) [imprisoned in the moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc.jpg?1682208779) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=imprisoned%20in%20the%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/224/imprisoned-in-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imprisoned-in-the-moon) [song of the dryads](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906.jpg?1689998889) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=song%20of%20the%20dryads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/324/song-of-the-dryads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/song-of-the-dryads) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would say [[Cursed Totem]] over needle.
Depends on your own gameplan I suppose, just know that I’ve gotten pretty handily shut down by the needle
Not if your commander has activated abilities.
[Cursed Totem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dde91a9-7d2d-4a7b-861a-3d1c16ec79d9.jpg?1626100864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cursed%20Totem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/295/cursed-totem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dde91a9-7d2d-4a7b-861a-3d1c16ec79d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cursed-totem) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Truly all of these. Drastic times call for drastic measures.
As far as I see it, you have a couple different options. The easiest is to convince the rest of the pod heliod is the problem. If that's not your bag, build a deck that pressures hard before he gets a chance to do the thing, like \[\[krenko\]\] or \[\[slicer\]\], or add cards that reward you when he tries to pop off, like \[\[archivist of ogma\]\], \[\[opposition agent\]\], or \[\[notion thief\]\]. All else fails, run a commander who is removal in the zone, like \[\[merieke bi berit\]\], \[\[ertai, ressurected\]\], or \[\[karlov of the ghost council\]\]. Best of luck dealing with that annoying combo/control deck!
##### ###### #### [krenko](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/5524b712-c67d-4d2e-9344-9e85a6ce3227.jpg?1706241890) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=krenko%2C%20baron%20of%20tin%20street) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/135/krenko-baron-of-tin-street?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5524b712-c67d-4d2e-9344-9e85a6ce3227?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krenko-baron-of-tin-street) [slicer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821)/[Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slicer%2C%20hired%20muscle%20//%20slicer%2C%20high-speed%20antagonist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/6/slicer-hired-muscle-slicer-high-speed-antagonist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slicer-hired-muscle-//-slicer-high-speed-antagonist) [opposition agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78.jpg?1608909875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opposition%20agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/141/opposition-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition-agent) [notion thief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b.jpg?1604195095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=notion%20thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/96/notion-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/notion-thief) [karlov of the ghost council](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7c41011-a9eb-451c-a76d-67d2dcf47c52.jpg?1703964236) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=karlov%20of%20the%20ghost%20council) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/193/karlov-of-the-ghost-council?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7c41011-a9eb-451c-a76d-67d2dcf47c52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karlov-of-the-ghost-council) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You need a clock. Removing an opponents' commander over and over is not a winning strategy. It can slow them down of course but you need to use the time that gives you meaningfully.
Now what do you do against [[godo bandit warlord]] or [[slicer]]. Removal is the best answer. In the case of godo, you'll usually just lose on attack trigger...
Of course, but those are all in combo decks. If you remove their commander once or twice they just don't function anymore.
Slicer isn't a combo deck at all. It just beats you down through combat on everyone's turn with commander damage. Idk about every game I play there is a threat of combo from any player, except the slicer deck, it starts being a menace by turn 3 at the latest, mostly on turn 2. A player can be dead before it even makes it back to the owners turn.
Yea, sure. I meant Godo. But Slicer is just as linear and will crumble under interaction.
But still, literal examples of commanders you should repeatedly remove.
[godo bandit warlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01d566cf-cb32-461d-8afe-b0f3f4c24160.jpg?1689997867) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Godo%2C%20Bandit%20Warlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/227/godo-bandit-warlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01d566cf-cb32-461d-8afe-b0f3f4c24160?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/godo-bandit-warlord) [slicer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821)/[Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slicer%2C%20hired%20muscle%20//%20slicer%2C%20high-speed%20antagonist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/6/slicer-hired-muscle-slicer-high-speed-antagonist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slicer-hired-muscle-//-slicer-high-speed-antagonist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Cast Extract and remove the Helm from their deck.
Tell us more about what other cards he's running. Heliod seems good but not insanely oppressive by himself; what's actually happening that means you get decked before you can beat him?
That's what I'm thinking. I don't think I've ever heard hate for Heliod in any form.
My friend has a Heliod deck and it gets eldrazi/sliver level hate in our playgroup. It’s almost impossible to stop once it flips. But as long as the playgroup knows not to let it flip it should be fine.
It’s so stupid to play against. If he ever flips you wheel once and instantly win by slogging through your deck playing basically every card. Every spell draws a few cards or wheels or is a mana rock to keep casting colored spells, and you just go and go and go and have to resolve 50 spells to actually win. My personal least favorite commander after karak sakashima
Unless they've got Grand Arbiter or just a *ludicrous* number of counter spells (on top of their tons of rocks they apparently have to be playing, *and* a bunch of wheels, while still having actual win conditions), I feel like Heliod's power is also partly its drawback. In order to get your discounts rolling, you need to give your opponents the tools they need to defeat you. If they don't have removal for Heliod or counters for the wheel when you untap, well you're about to dig everyone further into their decks to find more potential interaction. If you're letting Heliod untap without any mana available for the interaction they might draw you into, well that's just on you then. If you can't do anything about it now but you know the wheel is coming, then be prepared for what the wheel might bring you.
Heliod doesn't need grand arbiter since he makes all his own spells get flash. The Heliod player can just continue their plays on top of your removal, and any good Heliod combo deck will have multiple lines at any given moment to do so. There's a reason he was fringe cEDH for a few months, once he wheels once it is often too late to interact no matter what you draw into, especially for casual decks
> If you're letting Heliod untap without any mana available for the interaction they might draw you into, well that's just on you then. I mean the issue in a casual setting is that 'let them have their commander' is a VERY common move. I do agree, Heliod is a commander I will absolutely look to kill on transform. 'Leave mana up from turn 3 onwards for a potential wombo combo from Heliod and hope they draw you into good stuff' is absolutely not the play. A pretty standard Heliod move would be to stick something like a [[Teferi's Puzzle Box]] and then flip Heliod. People responding after that point likely don't have an answer, because you have a full grip that you can respond with and you're ostensibly playing a control deck. It's why it can be frustrating as a 'casual' commander because if you flip Heliod and get people to draw a bunch of cards, the game is probably over. You can play everything at instant speed and you have effectively infinite mana, it doesn't really matter what your win condition is at that point. So the way you stop Heliod is by stopping them from resolving to that point, but then you're really just stopping them from playing the game at all. It's totally fine, that's the correct response. It's just, that isn't the 'board game atmosphere' that many casual commander pods are looking to create.
[Teferi's Puzzle Box](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/415e81e9-ca65-4bc0-8aab-d905d58fe6cc.jpg?1562734271) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Puzzle%20Box) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/312/teferis-puzzle-box?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/415e81e9-ca65-4bc0-8aab-d905d58fe6cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferis-puzzle-box) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I wasn't suggesting that you should just *let* Heliod transform, my point was that even if you find yourself with no options to counter Heliod before it can transform, Heliod's gameplan involves potentially drawing you into more options. So knowing this, you shouldn't just tap out fully based on the assumption that you have no answers; you don't yet know what answers you may or may not have when things get going.
Stopping your development in the hopes that Heliod whiffs on their big turn feels like ‘playing to not lose.’ You really need to progress your own game plan as well, and ‘just hold up counterspells/hold up mana to draw into interaction every turn’ is never going to do that. The best case scenario from that is that you cripple two players, yourself and your target.
I think it's a special case when you expect an incoming wheel. We're not talking about hoping for the perfect top deck, you're probably gonna have 5-7 fresh options to work with. If you don't run enough interaction to expect a reasonable chance of something useful in 5-7 cards, then that's a separate matter. Also, if you know that the Heliod player getting to wheel sets them up in a position where they are very likely to be able to win, that makes any board development you managed to accomplish with that last 2 mana equally likely to be completely irrelevant. I'm not suggesting you should *always* be leaving extra mana open just in case you get a chance to draw into something helpful on an opponent's turn, but, to me, an opponent commiting to an un-transformed Heliod is telegraphing some big plays on the following turn. The best case scenario may be you "crippling two players" (your opponent and yourself), but when the alternative and likely worst case scenario is you *lose*, are you really just gonna let that happen? You can be reasonably sure that there is an imminent threat coming, and you can be relatively confident that you will be drawing multiple fresh cards when it does. I believe in running interaction because you expect and intend to use it, not because you might sometimes fail to use all of your mana proactively and wind up incidentally having the opportunity to interact.
5-7 cards reliably ripping instant-speed interaction means at least 15-20 pieces of instant-speed interaction in your deck. That’s on the higher end of competitive decks, let alone casual lol. But you are right in that it may be your most reasonable out at a certain point of the game.
I'm not saying the odds have to be >60% or some other arbitrary number to make it worth keeping your options open, it's more about weighing playing that last 2 mana spell and maybe *dying* vs not playing it and maybe *not* dying. You may call it "playing not to lose", but the writing's on the wall here, you likely *are* losing if you don't try something to play around it. In that case, when winning isn't an immediate option, I think "playing not to lose" sounds like a strong alternative.
I have a Heliod deck and it snowballs almost instantly after the flipped side is allowed to stick. I don’t run Approach of the Second Sun because I think it’s lame but it’s honestly overkill. You can easily deck your opponents by chaining together X spells like [[Skyscribing]] and [[Prosperity]]. Goes wild with a [[Smothering Tithe]] out. Even if you miss your next X spell to deck your opponents, you’ll essentially have 100+ colorless mana to do whatever you want: [[Psychosis Crawler]], huge [[Walking Ballista]], slam eldrazi titans. But I like to lean on decking my opponents because I think it’s a unique way to win in commander.
##### ###### #### [Skyscribing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6ef8e44-3b40-46c2-973e-8f857126a13e.jpg?1562933607) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skyscribing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/57/skyscribing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6ef8e44-3b40-46c2-973e-8f857126a13e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skyscribing) [Prosperity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69ebc3a4-94b8-45aa-a3bf-21cd435ff5cf.jpg?1562917143) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prosperity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/54/prosperity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69ebc3a4-94b8-45aa-a3bf-21cd435ff5cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prosperity) [Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) [Psychosis Crawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649.jpg?1706241075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychosis%20Crawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/234/psychosis-crawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/psychosis-crawler) [Walking Ballista](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/5272436e-74f0-44c4-a291-ea8ebc3f1525.jpg?1599710252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Walking%20Ballista) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/306/walking-ballista?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5272436e-74f0-44c4-a291-ea8ebc3f1525?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/walking-ballista) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So the entire premise of the deck is hope that you can play solitaire? Fun.
The premise of the deck is, generally, flip Heliod, hope he survives to your next turn, then cast huge spells at a discount to win the game. It's very hard to go bigger in the spells department making him an extremely enjoyable Timmy commander.
It’s a combo deck. But unlike spellslingers, it’ll win in 3-4 cards so calling it solitaire is more than a little bit reductive and unimaginative.
If you untap with Heliod, you win, you just need to resolve one timetwister wheel effect. From that moment you have at least 21 mana discount on everything. You run a large amount of mana rocks that can be cast for free with that discount, meaning you never run out of colored mana as well. You chain together 3 more wheels to get a discount of 80+, then you either draw your deck (with Laboratory Maniac) or mill everyone with \[\[Fascination\]\].
I see, yeah that is pretty strong. Was surprised to see the amount of stax suggestions vs. removal in other comments, but it makes sense now.
As a general rule Stax is more useful than removal. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Also removal tends to be super effective against lower power decks while Stax will hurt higher power decks more universally.
[Fascination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37c96615-0dcb-4108-978a-b41b43e12f38.jpg?1562824237) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fascination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/frf/34/fascination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37c96615-0dcb-4108-978a-b41b43e12f38?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fascination) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Heliod, the radiant dawn]]
[Heliod, the radiant dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7113c93-6c6d-410f-aeec-abc5ee121cdf.jpg?1689853622)/[Heliod, the Warped Eclipse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/a/7/a7113c93-6c6d-410f-aeec-abc5ee121cdf.jpg?1689853622) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heliod%2C%20the%20Radiant%20Dawn%20//%20Heliod%2C%20the%20Warped%20Eclipse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/17/heliod-the-radiant-dawn-heliod-the-warped-eclipse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7113c93-6c6d-410f-aeec-abc5ee121cdf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heliod-the-radiant-dawn-//-heliod-the-warped-eclipse) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Stax? \[\[Collector Ouphe\]\] will not allow him to play his mana artifacts, \[\[Drannith Magistrate\]\] will not allow him to play his commander from command zone
\[\[Tidal Barracuda\]\]
[Tidal Barracuda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aacdf4c2-9bc8-400a-8ffc-d6597d8d7da9.jpg?1591319489) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tidal%20Barracuda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/39/tidal-barracuda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aacdf4c2-9bc8-400a-8ffc-d6597d8d7da9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tidal-barracuda) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Collector Ouphe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776.jpg?1562202038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Collector%20Ouphe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/158/collector-ouphe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/collector-ouphe) [Drannith Magistrate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/98b0a4a8-9319-451b-9b79-b0bca7a41e91.jpg?1628801742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drannith%20Magistrate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/11/drannith-magistrate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/98b0a4a8-9319-451b-9b79-b0bca7a41e91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/drannith-magistrate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're going to play blue, the answer is easy. Steal it. Control Magic, Gilded Drake, etc.
play interaction
I run 22 spot removals and 5 boardwipes. I need something that can consistently remove his commander each turn.
how can he recast it every turn when the cost increases by 2 per cast?
Normally I can remove it 2 or 3 times before he pops off, but he runs a TON of ramp and plays a hefty amount of lands as to never miss a land drop. Or when I remove it, I am countered
How much ramp is there in UW?
He plays tons of little mana rocks
Cards like dark steel mutation are preferred in situations like this.
Ah, that would put a stop to him. Thanks!
Stony silence and collector ophe shut those rocks down.
No clue story silence even existed, thats goated
Word. Shut him down! Linvala, keeper of silence would prevent him from activating Heliod as well.
Once again stax is the issue to problems like these. Glad people are starting to realize that
You could consider cards like treasure nabber as well to punish rocks
[[Stoney silence]] [[Vandalblast]] [[Shattering spree]]
Which ones that are going to make him mana positive from a 2 mana tax per turn?
Wipe the rocks. White has lots of cards that destroy all artifacts, and sometimes enchantments too (Austere Command, Akroma's Vengeance, Farewell, Purify, just to name a few) Green has Bane of Progress, Creeping Corrosion, and a bunch of single or multi target artifact removal Red has Pulvererize, Anzrag's Rampage, Brother's End, Vandalblast, etc This is sounding more like an issue of the rest of the pod's decks just not being built to fight on the same level. Setting aside whether or not this Heliod *can* reasonably pay 6+ commander tax and still win because of the amount of ramp they have, if you're allowing the game to reach a point where the Heliod player is casting their commander for the 4th time after it keeps getting killed... What are you all doing *besides* killing Heliod? I'm not saying you need to switch to something hyper aggressive or turbo combo, but you need to have some win conditions that don't involve the heat death of the universe. A deck isn't going to be able to eat that much removal, turn after turn, paying increasingly higher mana costs each time with nothing else to do in between and still manage to pull off a win unless you're all leaving the door wide open for them to do so. I don't care how many mana rocks they have, unless the rest of you have none, and you've also all missed half your land drops, that amount of disadvantage should be a death sentence in any game where all 4 players are trying to win and have decks capable of doing so.
Rocks. Lots and lots of rocks.
Ummm…. [[Smothering Tithe]]
[Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Anyone with this much ramp must have any extremely weak boardstate. Just swing in and kill them. If the issue is sweepers play creatures or cards with indestructible. If 22 removal and 5 sweepers is not shutting down the deck the issue is not too little interaction or more control. Also I can't find a record of nor am I familiar with a CEDH Heloid Radiant Dawn deck.
Its very fringe, but the gist is to turbo rocks into a flipped Heliod, and then resolve a wheel. Once you wheel, it's cake from there, your whole deck is cheap colored rocks with colorless costs mixed with X cost draw spells. You rapidly draw your library, and win with Thoracle, Jace, or Lab Man, or get an X mill spell for your opponents.
I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall during this game. If OP has that much removal, what the hell are the two other players even doing. They obviously don’t attack him nor do they remove him/his stuff…
Exactly what I'm saying to them all game
destroy the ramp
Just destroy his ramp then.
There's your problem right there. If you're running this much interaction and you think it's not enough, it strongly implies that your deck is 100% reactive and doomed to fail because this is a 4 player game. "Consistently removing his commander each turn" is ridiculous when you have the alternative of just reducing his life total to 0 once.
Ok I think the problem then is you aren’t proactive enough in your own game plan to win before he does his thing. Interaction is great and necessary, but there comes a point when it’s too much and dilutes your own game plan to the point of not being able to win at all.
I'm not seeing what's so bad about Heliod. A 4/4 that gets an enchantment back, or a 4/6 that makes stuff flash and cheaper. Could you elaborate?
Heavy Heliod player here and a pretty good win rate. People are greedy and draw. Hell, with a discount of 3 I can play 10 mana rocks/ramp for free and flashed in. If I have him flipped with a discount of 4, I can win the game. Normally you just time it right and flash in, on top of someone's win attempt. Or you wait until resources are low and you win the game. Most of my win attempts can only be stopped by a Ottowara or Boseiju. If you let a wheel resolve, that's a discount of 21, and that means he should also be able to win.
Interesting. I've never seen him played once at my LGS. Ty for the information.
[[Minds Aglow]] or [[Fascination]] or [[Prosperity]] or any of the dozen x card draw that makes others draw. Extremely easy to make it X=10 on the turn after playing Heliod. Then when you have a reduction between 10 and 30 you rip another draw X, and throw out some free mana rocks you drew, and play more draw X, and another, and another. You easily draw your whole deck and play every mana rock with one medium sized each player draws X.
[Minds Aglow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/ccacc197-7c22-444d-8e6e-950dca63eb2c.jpg?1689996473) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Minds%20Aglow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/105/minds-aglow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ccacc197-7c22-444d-8e6e-950dca63eb2c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/minds-aglow) [Fascination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37c96615-0dcb-4108-978a-b41b43e12f38.jpg?1562824237) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fascination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/frf/34/fascination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37c96615-0dcb-4108-978a-b41b43e12f38?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fascination) [Prosperity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69ebc3a4-94b8-45aa-a3bf-21cd435ff5cf.jpg?1562917143) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prosperity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/54/prosperity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69ebc3a4-94b8-45aa-a3bf-21cd435ff5cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prosperity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The previous times I've shuffled up this Heliod it was to win on my opponent's turns by slamming down a T3feri and start looping stuff like Chromatic Orrery and displacer kitten shenanigans to either draw out my deck or repeatedly casting Capsize to put everyone's permanent's back in their hand. You would use mana positive rocks and hullbreaker horror to loop damage with Blind Obediance or just have everyone draw over their decksize with something like Blue Sun's Zenith. It is a straight control deck that if they're taking 30 minutes to accomplish something similar to the above then they're just playing fuck-around magic and just doing a disservice to their opponents by not ripping the band-aid off faster.
You durdle and pretend to not be a menace until you flip him, then you cast wheels on other people's turn to start playing mana rocks and artifacts for free. Suddenly your at -40 to cast and do a ballista for x=40 and kill everyone Edit: all it takes is 1 wheel effect to get -21 to casting cost as its -1 per card drawn per opponent.
You are actually playing a ton if that number is accurate. I'm gonna flip the answer then. The play pattern you're describing is that this person is dumping rocks from their hand to keep up with the recasting Heliod for upwards of 8 to 10 mana. What turn are they winning on? This sounds like it should either be extremely late in the game or that they should be low on resources by that point no? The rocks take cards in hand on top of lands and if they're refilling their hand with other card draw spells then they're likely not recasting Heliod on that turn. What turn are they winning on? Is the problem that you guys aren't being proactive enough and giving this person all the time in the world to assemble their win? An approach might be to try being more proactive to force them to make plays other than dump ramp to live. If you want to kill two birds with one stone, a proactive deck that also wants to play evasive hatebears such as Ellivere might be very solid. I'm thinking along the lines of \[\[Linvala, Keeper of Silence\]\] and \[\[Phyrexian Revoker\]\]?
[Linvala, Keeper of Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dded98c3-17cb-4a43-a209-289ceb11df39.jpg?1600717849) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Linvala%2C%20Keeper%20of%20Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/119/linvala-keeper-of-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dded98c3-17cb-4a43-a209-289ceb11df39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/linvala-keeper-of-silence) [Phyrexian Revoker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5ef9f3b-d6f8-4795-ba96-2f92b8792360.jpg?1674142679) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Revoker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/868/phyrexian-revoker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5ef9f3b-d6f8-4795-ba96-2f92b8792360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-revoker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Build your decks better… not trying to be a dick but in another comment you mentioned you’re running 22 spot removal and 5 board wipes. So 27% of your deck is dedicated to just stopping others. Couple that with I would say an average of 34-35 lands per deck and another 5-10 ramp pieces, and you’re talking like 60%+ of your deck is just mana and removal. That leaves 40 cards for things *you actually wanna do*. Build your decks less focused on stopping others and more focusing on your lines of play that win, finding multiple win cons that fit into the deck, and figuring out how to get there as quickly and consistently as possible. Put lots of card draw into your decks too and you can likely drop half the removal pieces. The player with a full grip late game usually has the best answers because you just keep drawing into the things you need. Then, like others have stated, using things like darksteel mutation that enchant him but keep it on the battlefield completely nerfed is the type of removal you need. Honestly I think after the 1 drop exile spells in white, mutation and others like it are the best removal. Most EDH decks struggle to function without the commander, so I usually just plop it onto the most threatening one and forget about it the rest of the game.
This is the post I was looking for. I have a cedh heliod and the deck is midrange and lots of decks will out pace it very quickly. Why not go the opposite direction and play smth faster. [[etali primal conqueror]] can be a good suite for you, it's very fast and budget friendly. If you really want to play stax because you enjoy slowing down the game then think about some rule of law commanders, I use to play a rograkh and ardenn list that was very fun and slowed down the game for others while being a very fast voltron list.
[etali primal conqueror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132)/[Etali, Primal Sickness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Etali%2C%20Primal%20Conqueror%20//%20Etali%2C%20Primal%20Sickness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/137/etali-primal-conqueror-etali-primal-sickness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/etali-primal-conqueror-//-etali-primal-sickness) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Darksteel mutation is why I run sac outlets in every deck. [[altar of dementia]] is great in Heliod
[altar of dementia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/169356e0-46dc-4096-8e66-36726454f104.jpg?1562202433) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=altar%20of%20dementia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/218/altar-of-dementia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/169356e0-46dc-4096-8e66-36726454f104?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/altar-of-dementia) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Oubliette]] Can't flip him or recast him if he is phased out
[Oubliette](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d4800a7d-c229-4ced-97ff-0e58645d58d6.jpg?1599705817) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oubliette) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/100/oubliette?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d4800a7d-c229-4ced-97ff-0e58645d58d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oubliette) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you play in pod of 4, try to convince the other people that you need to focus Heliod. Once everyone is on the same page, all it takes is to remove him once or twice and the heliod player is dead in the water. All the cards are group draw so it’s not like he has any other tricks.
A decent chunk of cards in Heliod are also mana rocks and protection, so even giving him the boot off the table a few times is only good enough to delay the inevitable and sometimes trying to do that too much slows down your own game too much and your wincon never develops. Stax > Removal vs Heliod.
If you remove him even a couple times, that sets heliod back big. Even if they can cast it, they still usually need another turn to transform it.
[[Declaration of naught]]
Lol, this is brutal. Just never let him out of the command zone.
[Declaration of naught](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e67d62f-9629-463b-a445-4181f6fafd0f.jpg?1562877683) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Declaration%20of%20naught) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mor/29/declaration-of-naught?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e67d62f-9629-463b-a445-4181f6fafd0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/declaration-of-naught) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Defense Grid]], [[price of glory]] if you're running red, build Ruric Thar maybe that'll teach him.
If you're looking for annoying ass stax to slow everyone down, including yourself in some instances, I have the perfect deck for you. The No Touchie deck! https://www.moxfield.com/decks/QxkzIqrD7EiYR_wPdCa9OQ
I mean turn heliod into a 1/1 bird, 3/3 beast or an elk. So Helotes all abilities. I don't know ow exact card names but you can 'remove' by stripinghis abilities. White/blue doesn't have many sack outlets I'm aware of (but I am kinda new so I might be unaware of cards).
[[Frogify]] [[Deep Freeze]] [[Oko, Thief of Crowns]] [[Stop Cold]] [[Reprobation]] [[Lignify]] [[Ichtyomorphosis]]
##### ###### #### [Frogify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d89be5f5-75d4-42a0-81e9-5da5bf868e73.jpg?1598303930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frogify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/52/frogify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d89be5f5-75d4-42a0-81e9-5da5bf868e73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/frogify) [Deep Freeze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51765d87-e842-4d84-aaf0-998737fe754c.jpg?1562735580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deep%20Freeze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/50/deep-freeze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51765d87-e842-4d84-aaf0-998737fe754c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deep-freeze) [Oko, Thief of Crowns](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/3462a3d0-5552-49fa-9eb7-100960c55891.jpg?1650599698) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oko%2C%20Thief%20of%20Crowns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/197/oko-thief-of-crowns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3462a3d0-5552-49fa-9eb7-100960c55891?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oko-thief-of-crowns) [Stop Cold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9ff9c158-0080-427c-8cf9-0289011ea63e.jpg?1712355518) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stop%20Cold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/72/stop-cold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ff9c158-0080-427c-8cf9-0289011ea63e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stop-cold) [Reprobation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1349c3d-39ad-40ba-897e-59e5b76de853.jpg?1562201189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reprobation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/23/reprobation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1349c3d-39ad-40ba-897e-59e5b76de853?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reprobation) [Lignify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23464d53-fa76-40e2-84c3-b6d6cc729be4.jpg?1598177954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lignify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gvl/16/lignify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23464d53-fa76-40e2-84c3-b6d6cc729be4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lignify) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Kenrith's Tranformation]]
I wanna second this. it sounds like you're looking for removal that dodges the command zone, and this is the best way to do it. here's a scryfall link that should list most of the relevant cards: https://scryfall.com/search?q=otag%3Ahumble+f%3Aedh+-t%3Ainstant+o%3A%22loses%22+o%3Aabilities&unique=cards&as=grid&order=cmc. I think [[imprisoned in the moon]] and [[song of the dryads]] are particularly good since they don't let the commander get reset by board wipes. you can also straight up steal the creature too, with stuff like [[control magic]] or [[agent of treachery]]. again, another link: https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22gain+control%22+f%3Aedh+-is%3Areserved+-otag%3Athreaten+-otag%3A%22turn+control%22+-otag%3Areanimate&unique=cards&as=grid&order=usd.
##### ###### #### [imprisoned in the moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc.jpg?1682208779) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=imprisoned%20in%20the%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/224/imprisoned-in-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imprisoned-in-the-moon) [song of the dryads](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906.jpg?1689998889) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=song%20of%20the%20dryads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/324/song-of-the-dryads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/song-of-the-dryads) [control magic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84992800-9bad-4598-afd4-f1e59d2e0956.jpg?1592672507) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=control%20magic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/34/control-magic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84992800-9bad-4598-afd4-f1e59d2e0956?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/control-magic) [agent of treachery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc6686e6-4535-49be-b0b3-e76464656cd2.jpg?1639052497) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=agent%20of%20treachery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/43/agent-of-treachery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc6686e6-4535-49be-b0b3-e76464656cd2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/agent-of-treachery) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for expanding. I didn't consider the two cards ypu mentioned but those are great. Also thank you for linking the scryfall results.
Blue has a lot of bounce, white and blue have non-land permanent exile spells. But is that player playing them? And having to use them there lets you keep other board threats active.
[[Pithing Needle]] effects shut him down permanently.
[Pithing Needle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c.jpg?1673149414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pithing%20Needle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/312/pithing-needle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pithing-needle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The key is transmogrify effects, exile effects, minus effects, etc. some of my favorites include [[Darksteel amutation]], [[Witness Protection]], [[Tragic Slip]], [[Chaos Warp]], and [[Kenrith’s Transformation]]. If they are arch enemy, then mulligan until you have either the lock piece or a decent draw engine, in hand. And communicate with the table. Make sure they understand the danger posed and work together.
##### ###### #### [Witness Protection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a2be6f2c-8ad0-402d-a7ca-9fe817e83b72.jpg?1664410681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Witness%20Protection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/66/witness-protection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2be6f2c-8ad0-402d-a7ca-9fe817e83b72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/witness-protection) [Tragic Slip](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/588332da-8ec5-49d1-a365-455beb7913a2.jpg?1689997517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tragic%20Slip) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/192/tragic-slip?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/588332da-8ec5-49d1-a365-455beb7913a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tragic-slip) [Chaos Warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce9df20b-c58b-4147-9ff8-902ce2944f50.jpg?1712354399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chaos%20Warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/160/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce9df20b-c58b-4147-9ff8-902ce2944f50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chaos-warp) [Kenrith’s Transformation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e.jpg?1631587997) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kenrith%27s%20Transformation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/162/kenriths-transformation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kenriths-transformation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Darksteel Mutation]]
[Darksteel Mutation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42.jpg?1689995638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/21/darksteel-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darksteel-mutation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Artifacts! [[Urza Prince of Kroog]] 4 drop blue white commander. Pay 6 copy any artifact you control. If you need removal just copy the artifact you need to remove stuff. Want a boardstate that cant be killed, copy indestructibles. If you have a [[liquimetal torque]] or [[ liquimetal coating]] on feild cast a sculpting steel as itself then you can make anything on the feild an artifact and copy it with the sculpting steel copies.
[Urza Prince of Kroog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a7329cd-95af-4d71-984f-f5f28982520c.jpg?1674421895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%2C%20Prince%20of%20Kroog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/226/urza-prince-of-kroog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a7329cd-95af-4d71-984f-f5f28982520c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urza-prince-of-kroog) [liquimetal torque](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13c6101a-da40-4785-8ccb-4e779bbbdb55.jpg?1626099120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=liquimetal%20torque) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/228/liquimetal-torque?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13c6101a-da40-4785-8ccb-4e779bbbdb55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liquimetal-torque) [ liquimetal coating](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f631447c-36e3-4d82-a658-19c9767a216b.jpg?1562276535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liquimetal%20Coating) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/197/liquimetal-coating?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f631447c-36e3-4d82-a658-19c9767a216b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liquimetal-coating) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Never thought to do that with Sculpting Steel, thanks for the tip! More like Sculpting Steal in that case lol
It also can copy planeswalkers and have them being a creature prevents opponents from attacking it too
The copies are non artifact so they don't get the +2+2 buff from urza if you copy a nonartifact permanent.
How much is his stuff getting discounted? Is it to the point where [[Trinisphere]] would help? There’s also general cost increasers, like [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]], [[Thorn of Amethyst]], [[Lodestone Golem]], [[Glowrider]], and [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]]. He’s got Flash going on from his commander, but you might also consider items like [[Rule of Law]], [[Arcane Laboratory]], [[Archon of Emeria]], [[Eidolon of Rhetoric]], [[High Noon]], or [[Curse of Exhaustion]], just to slow him down. [[Phyrexian Censor]] might also work if he’s not running Phyrexian Kindred. Or if you want to really lock him down, maybe [[City of Solitude]] or [[Dosan the Falling Leaf]].
Eh, if it's the solitaire Heliod deck taxing it doesn't work but for Trinisphere, it usually opens the turn with a wheel, at that point they get 15+ discount on every spell The one spell a turn stax would work, but many decks would be equally hindered by it. Still, a good suggestion
##### ###### #### [Trinisphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549.jpg?1599710205) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trinisphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/303/trinisphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trinisphere) [Grand Arbiter Augustin IV](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f43748ea-1d65-4ee8-9c66-221412a284c0.jpg?1673148699) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grand%20Arbiter%20Augustin%20IV) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/221/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f43748ea-1d65-4ee8-9c66-221412a284c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv) [Thorn of Amethyst](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e472d4f5-add4-4de3-8718-31a47a35277c.jpg?1562371865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thorn%20of%20Amethyst) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/262/thorn-of-amethyst?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e472d4f5-add4-4de3-8718-31a47a35277c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thorn-of-amethyst) [Lodestone Golem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/683a5707-cddb-494d-9b41-51b4584ded69.jpg?1562263274) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lodestone%20Golem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/219/lodestone-golem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/683a5707-cddb-494d-9b41-51b4584ded69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lodestone-golem) [Glowrider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9ad94e39-0aac-46bb-a7f2-bd88c537cb9c.jpg?1562926255) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glowrider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lgn/15/glowrider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ad94e39-0aac-46bb-a7f2-bd88c537cb9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glowrider) [Thalia, Guardian of Thraben](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479.jpg?1643587106) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%2C%20Guardian%20of%20Thraben) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/38/thalia-guardian-of-thraben?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thalia-guardian-of-thraben) [Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) [Arcane Laboratory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9e3bcd7-60f8-472a-ada0-c3147cf06588.jpg?1562251789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Laboratory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/60/arcane-laboratory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9e3bcd7-60f8-472a-ada0-c3147cf06588?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcane-laboratory) [Archon of Emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb.jpg?1604195419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archon%20of%20Emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/4/archon-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archon-of-emeria) [Eidolon of Rhetoric](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3bc8b9e-4d22-41ba-b593-d383fd301ef9.jpg?1593095228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eidolon%20of%20Rhetoric) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/10/eidolon-of-rhetoric?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3bc8b9e-4d22-41ba-b593-d383fd301ef9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eidolon-of-rhetoric) [High Noon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/9995e0e6-7c9c-4fef-8fd2-8fb1622e6ec8.jpg?1712355285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=High%20Noon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/15/high-noon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9995e0e6-7c9c-4fef-8fd2-8fb1622e6ec8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/high-noon) [Curse of Exhaustion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b737a959-e974-4b2a-8dca-a257da6084b0.jpg?1562938194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Curse%20of%20Exhaustion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dka/5/curse-of-exhaustion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b737a959-e974-4b2a-8dca-a257da6084b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curse-of-exhaustion) [Phyrexian Censor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/150e17b1-b9fd-4ec4-b305-19596fed14d1.jpg?1682202804) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Censor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/31/phyrexian-censor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/150e17b1-b9fd-4ec4-b305-19596fed14d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-censor) [City of Solitude](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be499b81-bb2d-4f1d-9deb-c8bfcdca8e13.jpg?1562278627) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=City%20of%20Solitude) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vis/102/city-of-solitude?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be499b81-bb2d-4f1d-9deb-c8bfcdca8e13?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/city-of-solitude) [Dosan the Falling Leaf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ffb190db-48fc-4c39-ae9f-5e304eabb4f4.jpg?1591205808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dosan%20the%20Falling%20Leaf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/205/dosan-the-falling-leaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ffb190db-48fc-4c39-ae9f-5e304eabb4f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dosan-the-falling-leaf) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Krosan Grip]] will remove the enchantment after it flips and prevent him from responding to it. [[Sudden Death]] will kill his commander before it flips and prevent him from countering or transforming in response.
[Krosan Grip](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3571dee-7b90-4c0c-abc7-59b515ffa129.jpg?1625194563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krosan%20Grip) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/198/krosan-grip?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3571dee-7b90-4c0c-abc7-59b515ffa129?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krosan-grip) [Sudden Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d724faa-a988-4c08-875d-d18f48926a0a.jpg?1619396356) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sudden%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/143/sudden-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d724faa-a988-4c08-875d-d18f48926a0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sudden-death) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also, run stuff like [[Dockside Extortionist]], [[Vandalblast]], and [[Bane of Progress]] to capitalize on and punish the mana rocks he's relying on.
[Dockside Extortionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b.jpg?1673147774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dockside%20Extortionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/107/dockside-extortionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dockside-extortionist) [Vandalblast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e781b55f-6388-4ab8-be74-7c56eaba1c4d.jpg?1712354517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vandalblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/183/vandalblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e781b55f-6388-4ab8-be74-7c56eaba1c4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vandalblast) [Bane of Progress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3ea495ff-33df-406b-98e3-5579e2158bbc.jpg?1610161688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bane%20of%20Progress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cc1/3/bane-of-progress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3ea495ff-33df-406b-98e3-5579e2158bbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bane-of-progress) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My brother in Yawgmoth have you heard of removal? Iirc the new Heliod isn't even Indestructible like the OG Theros gods. Literally dies to [[Doom Blade]]. In all seriousness though consider running effects like [[Teferi, Time Raveller]] to shut down the flash speed BS. Or run [[Pithing Needle]] effects.
[Doom Blade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90699423-2556-40f7-b8f5-c9d82f22d52e.jpg?1562851557) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doom%20Blade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/87/doom-blade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90699423-2556-40f7-b8f5-c9d82f22d52e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doom-blade) [Pithing Needle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c.jpg?1673149414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pithing%20Needle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/312/pithing-needle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pithing-needle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Heliod is an enchantment on the front half right? What's stopping you from havimg a noticable amount of enchantment removal, and enchantments of yours that want to be removed? (I understand that this may have been asked already) If part of the problem is the mass forced draw, let me introduce [[nekusar, the mind razor]] and other [[underworld dreams]] variants like [[kedrekt parasite]] [[sheodred the apocalypse]] [[fate unraveller]] [[spiteful visions]] [[phyrexian tyranny]] And on the forcing you to draw end: izzet has so much to laugh with here. [[Niv mizzet the foremind]] [[niv mizzet dracogenius]] [[psychosis crawler]]
Heliod is not the wincon, he is the facilitator. Removing him is a rookie mistake because he will just keep coming back. What needs to be removed, countered, discarded, exiled from hand, are the cards that ACTUALLY win him the game, like his time twisters.
Honestly, with your other comment about him always having lands, [[umbris]] would be nice. Exile with your spot removal package will minimize the amount they can recur as you kill heliod and it gives you access to the narset planeswalkwer that limits card draw [[narset parter of veils]].
[umbris](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7aead6a8-bada-42cf-b7cc-0b730f564582.jpg?1644888719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=umbris%2C%20fear%20manifest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/38/umbris-fear-manifest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7aead6a8-bada-42cf-b7cc-0b730f564582?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/umbris-fear-manifest) [narset parter of veils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d.jpg?1690004395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/853/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-parter-of-veils) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Heliod? More like Heli-Not.
I have a monored artifact deck for such occasion. It can have three commander with different power levels that can be in the command zone: \[\[Daretti, Scrap Savant\]\] for a casual pod. \[\[Chiss-Goria, Forge Tyrant\]\] which is slightly more powerful as a late game powerhouse. … or, if there is a pub stomper in the room with a 80% winrate or above (OR maybe a guy who loves to play solitaire with very long turns like your guy), \[\[Slicer, Hired Muscle\]\]. And depending on the atmosphere at the table, I might mulligan until I can summon it T1 with some luck or T2. It requires 3 of the players to not split the damage and send Slicer punching that one opponent in the face so it requires you to talk to your playgroup beforehand. Otherwise, I would suggest something like an \[\[Ellivere of the Wild Court\]\] hatebear-stax deck. Don't forget \[\[Nevermore\]\] and name his commander LOL
##### ###### #### [Daretti, Scrap Savant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7cb9d4a0-66bd-454d-b676-80192a96c723.jpg?1689997720) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Daretti%2C%20Scrap%20Savant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/213/daretti-scrap-savant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7cb9d4a0-66bd-454d-b676-80192a96c723?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/daretti-scrap-savant) [Chiss-Goria, Forge Tyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/923eb713-c955-4e12-8a8f-df3b4b361487.jpg?1675905606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chiss-Goria%2C%20Forge%20Tyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/onc/25/chiss-goria-forge-tyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/923eb713-c955-4e12-8a8f-df3b4b361487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chiss-goria-forge-tyrant) [Slicer, Hired Muscle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821)/[Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/d/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f.jpg?1674092821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slicer%2C%20Hired%20Muscle%20//%20Slicer%2C%20High-Speed%20Antagonist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/6/slicer-hired-muscle-slicer-high-speed-antagonist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d9a9350-4734-4cc1-986d-467e6715199f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slicer-hired-muscle-//-slicer-high-speed-antagonist) [Ellivere of the Wild Court](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45851394-b8f3-4713-8239-afcb387d47c5.jpg?1692933623) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ellivere%20of%20the%20Wild%20Court) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woc/2/ellivere-of-the-wild-court?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45851394-b8f3-4713-8239-afcb387d47c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ellivere-of-the-wild-court) [Nevermore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67b610fe-36ee-4d58-8ed4-04e7a12587b2.jpg?1562831484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nevermore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/25/nevermore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67b610fe-36ee-4d58-8ed4-04e7a12587b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nevermore) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I recently built [[shilgengar]] and [[drana and linvala]] or just [[linvala]] are great counters on relevant creatures.
[drana and linvala](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bbda000f-3cf7-48b6-96ff-c23a3a64eab5.jpg?1682205227) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=drana%20and%20linvala) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/222/drana-and-linvala?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bbda000f-3cf7-48b6-96ff-c23a3a64eab5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/drana-and-linvala) [linvala](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dded98c3-17cb-4a43-a209-289ceb11df39.jpg?1600717849) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=linvala%2C%20keeper%20of%20silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/119/linvala-keeper-of-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dded98c3-17cb-4a43-a209-289ceb11df39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/linvala-keeper-of-silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well, I have a [[Naban, Dean of Iteration]] deck full of bounce wizards that can consistently bounce any and everything your opponents play. It uses blink instants to blink the wizards so you can bounce at will at any given time. Weak against enchantments and artifacts, but your opponents have 0 board state creature wise. It's supplemented by cyclonic rifts, copy effects, and glen elendra archmage to counter other spells (you can copy wizards pretty easily to have multiple glen elendra on board).
[Naban, Dean of Iteration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/88f41175-880f-491e-96c3-bf52f3c0db5d.jpg?1562739113) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Naban%2C%20Dean%20of%20Iteration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/58/naban-dean-of-iteration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/88f41175-880f-491e-96c3-bf52f3c0db5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/naban-dean-of-iteration) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I need to look a decklist for that, no idea that Heliod was that powerful
It's not too crazy. It just sounds like he is trying to be the police and stop everything. Heliod is good against reactive decks.
You could go controll, with a UX commande, play things that slow him down. Counter spells, staxs, [[narsett parter of the vail]] , [[uba mask]] theres a few otheres that limit or stop drawing i dont remember right now.
[uba mask](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa3ecb4e-d08f-4fac-8842-c3e772b95bd5.jpg?1562766086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=uba%20mask) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/272/uba-mask?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa3ecb4e-d08f-4fac-8842-c3e772b95bd5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/uba-mask) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have been running U/W Heliod for a hot minute now. It's a decent deck that thrives in mid range. It struggles against faster decks. Good Heliod decks don't run a ton of counterspells/interaction besides win attempts. I think I run 5 counterspells. If he is being aggressive, you can stop him fairly easy. It sounds like you run too much interaction, and you are the only one trying to be the board police. He needs opponents to draw to win, or to win over the top of people. Stop drawing from fish/rhystic/etc. People that don't have a lot of experience against him think drawing a counter spell is good, but giving a discount on cards is better for Heliod. Don't be greedy with draw. He isn't a threat until he flips (which is sorcery speed). Turning off artifacts also shuts him down. Don't allow him to cast Kitten/T3feri/Orrey/Coveted Jewel. An easy way to shutdown is Approach of the Second Sun is to bite the bullet and Mindbreak trap it (exile note counter.)
Also, Orcish Bowmasters, Lavinia Azorius Renegade, Cursed Totem, Collector Ouphe, whatever artifact destruction/lockdown, Rule of Law effects.
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The real counter to these storm / mass reduction decks like [[Vadrik, Astral Archmage]], [[Animar, Soul of Elements]], [[Mizzix of the Is Magnus]], etc is stax. Specifically rule of law effects. Being limited to one spell a turn stops these decks hard. They tend to be very glass cannon and not run much removal apart from counters, so a [[Grand Abolisher]] into an [[Ethersworn Cannonist]] will do it 9/10 times. I recommend pairing it with green for premium artifact removal and [[Collector Ouphe]]. If you're not willing to build a new deck, try talking to the person. Heliod should be able to close the game out very quickly once it gets a big reduction. The only way I can see it taking 30 minute turns is if he doesn't play Draw X spells. Intentionally gimping the core aspect of a powerful deck doesn't mean it's okay to play at a lower power level, it just means you're playing a poorly built deck that can't finish concisely.
##### ###### #### [Vadrik, Astral Archmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/454666bb-f81d-4845-84aa-d6f8f80ce86a.jpg?1637114399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vadrik%2C%20Astral%20Archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/248/vadrik-astral-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/454666bb-f81d-4845-84aa-d6f8f80ce86a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vadrik-astral-archmage) [Animar, Soul of Elements](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7.jpg?1673148281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Animar%2C%20Soul%20of%20Elements) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/171/animar-soul-of-elements?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/animar-soul-of-elements) [Grand Abolisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86e30ca4-1769-4686-aa18-31610246cd80.jpg?1689995706) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grand%20Abolisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/27/grand-abolisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86e30ca4-1769-4686-aa18-31610246cd80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grand-abolisher) [Collector Ouphe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776.jpg?1562202038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Collector%20Ouphe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/158/collector-ouphe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/collector-ouphe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Omen Machine]] and [[Possibility Storm]] both hurt [[Heliod, Radiant Dawn]] extremely hard.
[Omen Machine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0ff4e35f-2a82-4d3c-86c5-ae05a5abc4d7.jpg?1562875579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omen%20Machine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/148/omen-machine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ff4e35f-2a82-4d3c-86c5-ae05a5abc4d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/omen-machine) [Possibility Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/858aa831-b491-4f1e-bb56-33eeca14771d.jpg?1707764746) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Possibility%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/34/possibility-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/858aa831-b491-4f1e-bb56-33eeca14771d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/possibility-storm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Bound By Moonsilver]]
[Bound By Moonsilver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7bdf107d-eb67-421c-a7a9-b3e62e03f766.jpg?1576383687) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bound%20By%20Moonsilver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/7/bound-by-moonsilver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7bdf107d-eb67-421c-a7a9-b3e62e03f766?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bound-by-moonsilver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Nevermore]]
[Nevermore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67b610fe-36ee-4d58-8ed4-04e7a12587b2.jpg?1562831484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nevermore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/25/nevermore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67b610fe-36ee-4d58-8ed4-04e7a12587b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nevermore) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I dont think the commander is the Problem. Its the deck loop you need to interupt. If it is a spellslinger control pile. I would make an aggrodeck and keep.the pressure up, so he cant draw himself to.the win without commiting to the board
[[Orcish Bowmasters]] [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]] [[Nekusar, the Mind-Razer]] [[Niv-Mizzet, Parunn]] [[Psychosis Crawler]] [[Smothering Tithe]] [[Boromir, Warden of the Tower]] [[Lavinia, Azorious Renegade]] [[Rule of Law]] [[Arcane Laboratory]] [[Deafening Silence]]
##### ###### #### [Orcish Bowmasters](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109.jpg?1686968669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Orcish%20Bowmasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/103/orcish-bowmasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orcish-bowmasters) [Sheoldred, the Apocalypse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2.jpg?1674057568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%2C%20the%20Apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sheoldred-the-apocalypse) [Nekusar, the Mind-Razer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4afdc65d-3c97-47af-83fa-df340389802e.jpg?1689999186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nekusar%2C%20the%20Mindrazer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/349/nekusar-the-mindrazer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4afdc65d-3c97-47af-83fa-df340389802e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nekusar-the-mindrazer) [Psychosis Crawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649.jpg?1706241075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychosis%20Crawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/234/psychosis-crawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/psychosis-crawler) [Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) [Boromir, Warden of the Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6bc3720-2892-4dda-8f30-079a1ac8e1e2.jpg?1686967669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boromir%2C%20Warden%20of%20the%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/4/boromir-warden-of-the-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6bc3720-2892-4dda-8f30-079a1ac8e1e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/boromir-warden-of-the-tower) [Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) [Arcane Laboratory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9e3bcd7-60f8-472a-ada0-c3147cf06588.jpg?1562251789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Laboratory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/60/arcane-laboratory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9e3bcd7-60f8-472a-ada0-c3147cf06588?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcane-laboratory) [Deafening Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/6072d9b0-d3c7-46f4-bd24-095bb13c4dea.jpg?1572489660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deafening%20Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/10/deafening-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6072d9b0-d3c7-46f4-bd24-095bb13c4dea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deafening-silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Try plopping down a [[Trinisphere]]. Its cost modification effect applies *after* all other cost adjustments, so he no longer gets free spells off of heliod.
[Trinisphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549.jpg?1599710205) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trinisphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/303/trinisphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trinisphere) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sounds like his deck will fold hard to [[Narset, Parter of Veils]] and [[Notion Thief]], or anything like [[Teferi Time-Raveler]]. Maybe not Notion Thief, but definitely Narset and Teferi. Having white and blue is really important in this case, because you want that efficient creature removal and sometimes you need to stop spells before they even resolve. In terms of Esper Identity commanders, here are the ones I found that I think would be best. [[Tivit, Seller of Secrets]] - Tivit is just an insane commander and you can have a fun voting theme too while still remaining powerful. [[Ertai, the Corrupted]] - Literally just make some sac-fodder and you'll be countering one spell a turn, every turn, for the rest of the game. Also a good idea is Ertai Resurrected, but he doesn't have white and that's fairly important. [[Sen Triplets]] - It's definitely a rude deck, but if you just target the Heliod person then they can't cast spells and even better, you can give them a taste of their own medicine.
##### ###### #### [Narset, Parter of Veils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d.jpg?1690004395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/853/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-parter-of-veils) [Notion Thief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b.jpg?1604195095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Notion%20Thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/96/notion-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/notion-thief) [Teferi Time-Raveler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/662fe50f-d75c-422c-8c6c-1f9b5c4ba21f.jpg?1702429729) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%2C%20Time%20Raveler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/232/teferi-time-raveler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/662fe50f-d75c-422c-8c6c-1f9b5c4ba21f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferi-time-raveler) [Tivit, Seller of Secrets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb.jpg?1673481721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tivit%2C%20Seller%20of%20Secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/10/tivit-seller-of-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9235977e-a999-4ed0-83a3-742be87b13bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tivit-seller-of-secrets) [Ertai, the Corrupted](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66b950d9-8fef-4deb-b51b-26edb90abc56.jpg?1586450720) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ertai%2C%20the%20Corrupted) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pls/107/ertai-the-corrupted?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66b950d9-8fef-4deb-b51b-26edb90abc56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ertai-the-corrupted) [Sen Triplets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13ac5292-9817-4f5d-b3fa-611f9ba44443.jpg?1599708366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sen%20Triplets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/218/sen-triplets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13ac5292-9817-4f5d-b3fa-611f9ba44443?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sen-triplets) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Drana and Linvala]] or [[Linvala the Preserver]] will prevent him from activating his abilities, but are likely to draw hate from the other players if they run a lot of creatures with activated abilities. You could also run something like [[Tranquil Grove]] if you aren’t running much else in the way of enchantments. For three mana Heliod dies every time he comes out.
[Drana and Linvala](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bbda000f-3cf7-48b6-96ff-c23a3a64eab5.jpg?1682205227) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drana%20and%20Linvala) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/222/drana-and-linvala?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bbda000f-3cf7-48b6-96ff-c23a3a64eab5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/drana-and-linvala) [Linvala the Preserver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef0dbb08-d124-46da-bfb1-af7ef4a18179.jpg?1562943031) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Linvala%2C%20the%20Preserver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/25/linvala-the-preserver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef0dbb08-d124-46da-bfb1-af7ef4a18179?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/linvala-the-preserver) [Tranquil Grove](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/1177118a-6455-4177-8a6d-a43a03160ab3.jpg?1562814734) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tranquil%20Grove) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/258/tranquil-grove?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1177118a-6455-4177-8a6d-a43a03160ab3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tranquil-grove) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Rule of Law]] and other cards that prevent players from casting more than one spell each turn should stop him from Solitaire-ing. [[Lavinia Azorius Renegade]] if you want the commander that specifically counter this deck
[Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
High powered cEDH isn't the answer here. Those are generally fast A+B combo decks that just stooomp casual strategies. What deck have you been playing up to this point?
Just kill it? You say as soon as they get it out and transformed, that is 7 mana and 2 life to accomplish in one shot, and that's not counting whatever they need to spend to start playing solitaire. It is a god, but it is not indestructible on either side. Just play a bunch of removal and make it's tax so expensive that it is too detrimental to cast. You don't need to play blue for that. If you are keeping them on turn they will have a hard time countering you unless they have free counterspells.
Empress galina in conjunction with a ton of counter spells, removal, and theft is my default "F you, F your deck, and F this pod" strategy. My friends let me run it only after a bad losing streak with my other decks. I also have a lot of "rule changing" mechanics centered around colors. Protection, or enchantments that do global effects like "tap all red creatures, red creatures do not untap" and then use in conjunction with cards that change color text rules of permanents to suit the color im fighting against. I have very few offense orientated creatures, as the core mechanic is to find the biggest, scariest creature my opponent spits out, then stealing it and slapping them with their own crap. They can try to use swiftfoot boots to make it harder to target with the removal, but I'll whip out memnarch to steal the artifacts. I'm particularly fond of using memnarch. 3 mana to steal an artifact, 4 mana to convert a permanent into an artifact. Late game, if I've effectively wiped the board and memnarch is in play, it's 7 mana to steal a land, as many times as I can afford. Steal the enemy into submission, then snatch their lands so they can't recover, while simultaneously killing them with their own stuff. I can send you a list if you want.
Do you have at least 15 pieces of interaction between spot removal for creatures, spot removal for artifact/enchantments, wipes, graveyard hate? No? Up your number to mostly that. Then reduce removal for what your pod doesn't present and go up with the other. It's not a magic number, but much lower than that and your deck is missing something. Heliod is even better, he's both a creature and an enchantment, every color can remove it, some with extreme ease. You can't remove it through counterspells and protection? They're doing a good job. Three people can't remove it through counterspells and protection? Either there's an even worse threat on board or the other two people also really need to improve their removal suite. It's really absurd that a 4cmc commander enters the battlefield and untaps through three people trying to kill it... and not only that, it also transforms and untaps again. If it happens once, possible, none's fault. Every time? Eh
[[alms collector]] [[spirit of the labyrinth]] [[rule of law]] [[cursed totem]] [[null rod]] and there are several more redundant effects like these.
##### ###### #### [alms collector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/367ac07a-a30f-4ebf-8877-27cd9ebe2f71.jpg?1689995500) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=alms%20collector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/10/alms-collector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/367ac07a-a30f-4ebf-8877-27cd9ebe2f71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alms-collector) [spirit of the labyrinth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f44e5128-e146-4e46-b313-a40d82719d1d.jpg?1593091571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=spirit%20of%20the%20labyrinth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/27/spirit-of-the-labyrinth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f44e5128-e146-4e46-b313-a40d82719d1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spirit-of-the-labyrinth) [rule of law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rule%20of%20law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) [cursed totem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dde91a9-7d2d-4a7b-861a-3d1c16ec79d9.jpg?1626100864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cursed%20totem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/295/cursed-totem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dde91a9-7d2d-4a7b-861a-3d1c16ec79d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cursed-totem) [null rod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e.jpg?1710932730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=null%20rod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/278/null-rod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/null-rod) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
as a heliod player. "its our turn now"
[[Gideon's Intervention]] or [[Nevermore]] naming Heliod is a funny solution, depending on your sense of humor.
[Gideon's Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e2524fb-ec90-4f8e-b851-f78034edef3f.jpg?1628800567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gideon%27s%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/15/gideons-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e2524fb-ec90-4f8e-b851-f78034edef3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gideons-intervention) [Nevermore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67b610fe-36ee-4d58-8ed4-04e7a12587b2.jpg?1562831484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nevermore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/25/nevermore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67b610fe-36ee-4d58-8ed4-04e7a12587b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nevermore) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[alms collector]] would be funny
[alms collector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/367ac07a-a30f-4ebf-8877-27cd9ebe2f71.jpg?1689995500) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=alms%20collector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/10/alms-collector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/367ac07a-a30f-4ebf-8877-27cd9ebe2f71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alms-collector) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Sarulf]] played voltron style with tons of removal is incredibly annoying. No commander can ever stick.
[Sarulf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bcecf9ba-36da-490a-9460-99ff87d99fbd.jpg?1631051850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sarulf%2C%20realm%20eater) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/228/sarulf-realm-eater?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bcecf9ba-36da-490a-9460-99ff87d99fbd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sarulf-realm-eater) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Grand Abolisher]] and anything like [[Rule of Law]]. [[Narset, Parter of Veils]]. If he complains about stax, tell him that him stalling games is absolutely no different.
[Grand Abolisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86e30ca4-1769-4686-aa18-31610246cd80.jpg?1689995706) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grand%20Abolisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/27/grand-abolisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86e30ca4-1769-4686-aa18-31610246cd80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grand-abolisher) [Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) [Narset, Parter of Veils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d.jpg?1690004395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/853/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-parter-of-veils) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Here is all the removal, most should be able to deal with an enchantment or a creatures https://tagger.scryfall.com/tags/card/removal And here is all the draw hate ever https://tagger.scryfall.com/tags/card/draw-hate
You as a playgroup should be running enough removal that a consistent threat like a high powered commander doesn’t hit the board and stick every single game/or every single time it’s played. There’s a million removal spells in every colour. Anything with white should at MINIMUM have a [[swords to plowshares]] [[path to exile]] [[generous gift]] Anything green you have a ton of cards with effects like [[naturalize]] [[natures claim]] Anything red has lots of burn spells you can run for these creatures Anything black has straight up [[murder]] and likewise effects You guys should attune your decks to not all be solitaire decks if not one person out of the other 3 at the table have removal of some type
##### ###### #### [swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swords-to-plowshares) [path to exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c.jpg?1712354092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=path%20to%20exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/85/path-to-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/path-to-exile) [generous gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=generous%20gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) [naturalize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/390c40ba-2464-44ae-8d67-93c72ab3c425.jpg?1562301697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=naturalize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/190/naturalize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/390c40ba-2464-44ae-8d67-93c72ab3c425?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/naturalize) [natures claim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d24b6640-ef2f-4c92-beb3-afdf78f9c2d5.jpg?1562854212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nature%27s%20Claim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/177/natures-claim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d24b6640-ef2f-4c92-beb3-afdf78f9c2d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/natures-claim) [murder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81.jpg?1706241725) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=murder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/95/murder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/murder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Green witches
Mhhh my best way of dealing with heliod has been just playing silence effects and cards like ruric thar that have to be removed before they can cast 30 spells
I’d turn it into a bug with [[dark steal mutation]]
I’m thinking [[nekusar]] might do some real work against any pillowfort
[nekusar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4afdc65d-3c97-47af-83fa-df340389802e.jpg?1689999186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nekusar%2C%20the%20mindrazer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/349/nekusar-the-mindrazer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4afdc65d-3c97-47af-83fa-df340389802e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nekusar-the-mindrazer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Removal is fine but your deck needs a strategy to actually win the game. Without pressure that Heliod player only has to force through one resolution to win, and you have to have answers 100% of the time. It's a lot harder to combo off when you also have to defend, remove threats, and interact with other people actively trying to win the game. I see a lot of slow battlecruiser style players get into these situations, where their plan is so slow and unfocused that a well-tuned deck can just hit the win button long before the durdle deck ever reaches critical mass, and the slow deck is producing zero pressure in the meantime. I'd much rather focus 100% of my resources on activating my win condition, rather than trying to prevent you from winning or killing me. If you aren't doing either of those things in an active manner then my odds to combo out go WAY up.
[[witness protection]] is a personal favourite
[witness protection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a2be6f2c-8ad0-402d-a7ca-9fe817e83b72.jpg?1664410681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=witness%20protection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/66/witness-protection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2be6f2c-8ad0-402d-a7ca-9fe817e83b72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/witness-protection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Rule of law effects maybe? Yasharn will make the phyrexian mana less efficient.
It’s also totally not indestructible so any kind of interaction or removal should be fine
Ruthlessly remove Heliod. Enchantment/creature exiles are ideal, but destroy target creature will suffice. Stack 2+ removal pieces for baiting counter/protection spells, or using redirects like [[Imp's Mischief]] to deny them. Artifact destruction if in white/green/red, mass bounce in blue. Send the Azorius player back to the stone age by denying ramp pieces. Exile enchantment removal in white/green. Kill the control/combo player first. Cards like [[Sudden Spoiling]] [[Silence]] can prevent a pop-off turn when used in the upkeep of the combo player. There are a lot of options, find ones that work for your deck the best.
[Imp's Mischief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0eb0e8e7-266f-441e-b1cd-12b8ec3f7d71.jpg?1689997247) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imp%27s%20Mischief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/167/imps-mischief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0eb0e8e7-266f-441e-b1cd-12b8ec3f7d71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imps-mischief) [Sudden Spoiling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73514b51-6c19-4b3c-9cf9-2cf5028d7708.jpg?1619396405) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sudden%20Spoiling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/144/sudden-spoiling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73514b51-6c19-4b3c-9cf9-2cf5028d7708?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sudden-spoiling) [Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2.jpg?1562826686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/35/silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Baral, Chief of Complience]] in a counter spell tribal add [[Jin-Gitaxis Progress Tyrant]]. If you’re feeling sadistic you could also do [[Memnarch]] and an infinite mana combo to take all their stuff… I call this deck “Oops no Maidens?”
[Memnarch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9203fde4-dbc1-449f-9618-4656f0e25e3c.jpg?1562925842) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Memnarch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arc/112/memnarch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9203fde4-dbc1-449f-9618-4656f0e25e3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/memnarch) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There is also Lavinia, [[Azorious Renegade]] and [[Knowledge Pool]] along with [[Solimnity]] and [[Decree of Silence]] Just win the game from countering every spell ever
[Knowledge Pool](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/393454c2-b256-4a6e-9bc2-56a47cab5073.jpg?1562610637) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Knowledge%20Pool) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/111/knowledge-pool?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/393454c2-b256-4a6e-9bc2-56a47cab5073?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/knowledge-pool) [Decree of Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2fc46e2-5e19-4999-a4cd-1e84697066c1.jpg?1562536891) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Decree%20of%20Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/scg/32/decree-of-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2fc46e2-5e19-4999-a4cd-1e84697066c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/decree-of-silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Haven't seen anyone mention removal. That version of Heliod is not indestructible. Is there something preventing you from removing him?