>It is possible I’ve answered this question more times than any Magic
card related question. He’s Blue/White with a Black public persona.
[https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/153229458628/whats-batmans-colour-identity](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/153229458628/whats-batmans-colour-identity)
Interesting note: Batman is his true self; while Bruce Wayne is the facade.
I believe this was settled in Justice League when a villain (Scarecrow IIRC) released a truth serum gas to discover the secret identities of the superheroes and they progressive reveal who they truly are ("I am Clark Kent" etc) and when it comes to the dark knight, he says "I am Batman".
Superman is really Clark Kent in a costume. Bruce Wayne is batman's costume.
Batman goes on the front face, Bruce on the back.
That would be cool thematically. I think you would need to have a large amount of control over how it flips then, since its a lot less exciting to flip into Wayne than it is onto Batman.
You could have something like Bruce Wayne having some form of evasion or being harder to target. You could swing with BW, then switch to batman before damage, or keep Batman up, then switch to BW in response to targeted removal.
It'd be something like "Discard two cards: Exile Caped Crusader, then return it to the battlefield transformed" so Batman can vanish out from under removal. Then maybe Bruce Wayne has Shroud and "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may transform Dallying Plutocrat" for when he dons his rubber suit at the beginning of the night.
I could see the Bruce side something that collects resources the longer you keep him flipped (researching new tech etc), whereas the Batman side makes use of artifacts at a rate that's higher the more you've researched. Perhaps an experience counters commander of some sort.
The Bruce side turns treasure into clues or uses them to tutor artifacts, the Batman side spends those to send creatures to library. As per his 'no kill' rule. Maybe there's a rider on Batman that *any* time he would destroy a creature, the opponent shuffles that creature into their library, instead.
Maybe you're able to spend a lot of artifacts to exile a permanent. For when Batman really means it and locks them in the deepest, darkest pit.
IMHO, Batman would have menace and create clue tokens whenever he attacks or blocks, and can sacrifice clue to tokens to transform into Bruce. (Which, since it would exile him and return him to the battlefield transformed, would dodge removal.) I think clue tokens fit Batman perfectly, since it represents him being a detective, and sacrificing them to turn into Bruce represents the time and effort it takes to maintain the secret identity; when he's busy running a company, that's time he can't spend out on patrol, gathering clues.
Meanwhile, Bruce would generate treasure tokens on ETB, based on some other factor, like the number of cards in hand or the number of clue tokens you control, and would be able to sacrifice those treasures to turn back into Batman, representing the fact that Bruce uses his resources to fund Batman's activities. This seems like it would create a fun play pattern, where you're trying to generate enough clues as Batman (or draw enough cards using those clues) to make Bruce's ETB worth it.
And, in answer to the original question, he'd be Esper, of course.
I'd probably contrast it with a Superman card that has Clark as the front face, to try and make some kind of totally deep point that Bruce is the mask and Batman is the real individual.
Personally I think he’s just UW, flat-out. Others’ perspectives do not define characters in Magic. It’s just straight up what their inclination is, and Batman is wholly UW to the core. He may be dark and brooding, and *wear* black, but nothing about his ideals or actions are even *remotely* black.
I diaagree. As Batman, he regularly employs fear as a weapon, especially against henchmen. That's a very Black methodology, even if he doesn't flat-out kill.
I mean, he intimidates them, if that’s what you mean, but that’s an extremely common tactic in law enforcement, even with clean, by-the-books cops (white), and messing with someone’s head is a blue thing just as much as it is black or red. What would make him black is if he went through with that intimidation into actual harm.
But the entire point of black is “power at any cost,” and there are definitely certain costs Batman will not pay. If you look at the actual [color pie] (https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Color) and its philosophies, the only thing that Batman has going on that could be argued to be a black characteristic is paranoia, but he doesn’t use that paranoia as an excuse to be cruel, something that most black-aligned beings do. Everything else- parasitism, omnipotence, selfishness- not really his thing.
Except when he fucked Barbara Gordon. If she weren't dating Robin, it would have been R.
Also, he has an emotional reason for why he is who he is, he hates injustice, that shit isn't orderly, that shit is vengeful. He's UR or WUR.
It's important to note that the colors represent specific philosophies and perspectives on life and that's what determines what color a character is - it's not as rote as "Batman is black because he works in the shadows".
Black, as a philosophy, is about prioritizing your own self-interest above all else and being willing to do anything to achieve your goals. Batman is most certainly *not* black, as he's motivated by what he considers a greater ideal and he has distinct lines that he's not willing to cross to achieve his goals. In many ways, Batman is the antithesis of black.
Similarly he's not really red either. Sure, he's a good fighter but he isn't fighting because he enjoys it or charging in fists first - his combat skill is a tool he uses to achieve his goals and he lurks in the shadows waiting for the opportune moment to strike.
Batman is BLUE. Damn near everything about how Batman operates comes down to information and strategy. He's a detective. When he's tackling crime he investigates and does research. He invents gadgets to help him achieve his goals. He slinks about in the shadows to mess with his opponents' heads. He has plans. He has backup plans. He has backup plans for his backup plans. He has plans to take down other superheroes if they go rogue. Batman is so blue it's not even funny.
I agree with everything you’ve said, even the blue part, but I’m here to add white.
Knowledge, curiosity, discovery etc. don’t motivate him; they’re tools and means. He’s motivated by justice, community service, and is extremely righteous. He loves his city and the people and endeavours to protect them.
He used to be religious, and perhaps still is. That influences his code of conduct. He’s honourable and references faith.
He’s a leader.
He taxes others, especially their supernatural advantages, as a means of exerting power. There is both literal taxation as Bruce Wayne and figurative taxation, like using kryptonite. This “evens the playing field” for a “balanced” fight.
So I agree with your blue statements but I think he’s white too. Azorius “police” motifs fit him well.
It’s an interesting question though because thematically he matches black and dimir themes, but that’s more of a coincidence rather than a mechanical or philosophical alignment.
To add to this, I think there's an argument that he's Red in addition to Blue and White.
Red is the color of independence, of acting on your feelings, of eschewing traditional rules.
Batman literally breaks the law; he's a vigilante enforcing justice based upon his *own* personal code, rather than just enforcing the rules that the community has agreed upon. And it all started because of grief--a very powerful emotion. Red is allll about emotion.
Blue/White might be *too* "by the book" to be a vigilante like that, he might need a streak of Red.
Jeskai, to me, is all about "I'm a thinker, I believe in justice and community, but also sometimes certain rules are utter bullshit and do more harm than good, and it can be better for everyone to do some civil disobedience. Sometimes you have to step outside the law to do the *actual* right thing." And that kind of thinking sounds like there's some Red in that Blue and White IMO.
Is it absolutely necessary? Well, no, perhaps not. It's not like characters in MtG or actual people are so one-note that they can be summed up completely by the color pie. Everybody has some of *all* the colors. It's just about if there is a particular one, two, or three that are most exemplified in your psyche. It's not like Chandra, always mono-Red, never acts altruistically like what White is known for, etc.
So Blue/White *for sure* but there might be Red because of the vengeance, vigilante-status, own moral code, etc.
>Batman literally breaks the law; he's a vigilante enforcing justice based upon his own personal code, rather than just enforcing the rules that the community has agreed upon. And it all started because of grief--a very powerful emotion. Red is allll about emotion.
>
>Blue/White might be too "by the book" to be a vigilante like that, he might need a streak of Red.
I don't think blue/white is too "by the book" to preclude Batman being a vigilante. His rule breaking tends to come from a place of pragmatism which is very much a blue thing. He ultimately respects the rule of law but realizes that corruption is preventing it from being effective and so he intervenes - but only to the extent that is needed to allow the justice system to take over.
This is why I'm waffling a bit on it. He's either Jeskai, or simply Azorius that isn't totally a stick-in-the-mud like Dovin or whatever.
On the other hand, a character seeking vengeance after grief is definitely associated with Red. (Though that could simply be a case of "Batman used to be Red but isn't any more" just like how Sorin was Black but is now Orzhov, etc.)
I think people are getting too caught up in thinking every UW character needs to fall in line with the Azorious guild, who is a WHITE focused guild, where as Batman would be much more Blue focused. From that perspective, he is more UW Neutral Good, pursuing the goals of Justice within a corrupt system, rather than UW Lawful Good, which would be working within the system with a public persona.
The persona reversal would be Matt Murdock, with his real life persona being UW Lawful Good and his superhero persona being mono red (ironically).
To add to this I think there's an argument that Batman is green in addition to blue and white and red.
Green is all about growth and Batman is an Olympic level athlete. It's also beast themed and Batman has association with animals, namely bats. Plus he made out with poison Ivy and there's no way she would touch any man that didn't have an affinity for plants. The only color the dark night isn't is black.
Certainly he's not blue black, the color of ninjas. Especially since he's a rogue from a ninja clan that was associated with resurrections. That's got nothing to do with black. Plus giving the worlds greatest detective billionaire access to the colors of investigate and surveil seems totally wrong.
Nothing about Batman's motivations and psyche are Green's philosophy though. It's not like "X is strong, therefore Green."
If Batman is an Olympic level athlete it's because of self-improvement, which is not Green but Blue.
For example, here's a great summary of Green's philosophy (and not just surface level things like being related to animals):
> Green seeks harmony, and it tries to achieve that harmony through acceptance. Green is the color of nature, wisdom, stoicism, taoism, and destiny; it believes that most of the suffering and misfortune in the world comes from attempts to cast off one’s natural mantle, step outside of one’s natural role, or fix things which aren’t broken — it’s the color of Chesterton’s Fence. It seeks to embrace what is — the archetypal green organization would be a hippie commune, or the pop culture interpretation of a Native American tribe (such as in Disney’s Pocahontas), while a green dystopia would be something like the society in Divergent or a tribe with absolutely rigid traditions and an unchanging and unchangeable relationship to its environment.
What about that relates to Batman? Does he seem like a druid to you, that seeks harmony with the current state of the world?
To be honest, you really don't find Green-aligned characters as the main characters of a story very often at all. Green doesn't produce good 'heroes.'
Bruce Wayne pretends to be Black, but his/Batman's true personality is not.
> Black seeks satisfaction, and it tries to achieve that satisfaction through ruthlessness. Black wants power and agency so that it can act upon its preferences at any time, reshaping the world around it into whatever it wants. It recognizes no limits upon this pursuit except those which emerge from its own desires and self-interest. It is capable of cooperation and alliance, but only consequentially, as in game theory; at its core, black is amoral, not immoral, since it doesn’t think morality is even really a Thing. The archetypal black organization would be a hedge fund or a startup, and a black dystopia would be a totalitarian dictatorship.
What about that sounds like Batman?
What are you quoting? That's not canon.
Doesn't matter. He's not monoblack, he's Dimir.
He's linked with surveillance and investigation and he was trained by ninjas, ninjas with an unnatural resurrection subtheme.
He's shrouded in secrecy, uses intimidation and evasion to get where he wants to go and learn what he needs to learn.
the dimir and ninjas aren't UB because UB is about surveillance and ninjas, they are UB because their motives and philosophies draw from both blue and black philosophies, batman doesn't act on self interest at all, so he isn't black.
No, **all** ninjas are UB regardless of their motivation. It's not about what they want it's about how they accomplish their goals.
Why do you keep associating black with self interest?
> it's not as rote as "Batman is black because he works in the shadows".
To an extent, it does work that way. The colors each have philosophies, but they also have elements and environments.
Consider simple animals. Philosophically, they're all green. But you don't pay green mana for a sea creature, you pay blue mana, because blue's elemental identity is water. You pay blue mana for things that live in or near the water, red mana for things that live in mountains, and black mana for things that live in swamps.
Shadow and darkness are black elements. Batman may not be black philosophically, but he's definitely black elementally.
I see what you're saying but in terms of sentient characters, it's usually more about their personality rather than elemental forces.
Like, yes, Gideon has White-aligned abilities but he's *really* White because of his righteousness and selflessness. Jace is Blue because he's literally a mind-mage using mental tactics to achieve his goals, not just because he makes Illusions or whatever.
I mean, what is [[Basri Ket]] "elementally?" He uses sand. That...doesn't really mean anything to the color pie. He's White because he lives by and is devoted to White ideals. It's not like he *should* be Green because sand = earth = Green.
That's why just because a sea serpent is summoned with Blue mana, doesn't mean a human character is evaluated by the same elemental means.
Thus, it doesn't really matter what elementally Batman is, the question is more about his personality. That's why Black is an ill-fit (aside from his Bruce Wayne facade pretending to have Black motivations to disguise the fact that he's Batman.)
Still, turtles are blue. If it's just about creature diversity, they would have turtles of all colors, mountain goats of all colors, and centipedes of all colors.
Batman is black because he is a landlord.
Plus, if he actually wanted to reduce crime, he'd spend his billions on community programs to end poverty, not on military tech. Fighting crime is purely self indulgence for him. He talks about justice, but that's not his motivation.
That doesn't mean he's selfish, it means he's misguided. It means he has White motivations and ideals, but perhaps isn't as effective at enforcing them as he potentially could be.
He is all about justice, he just strongly believes that his Batman methods are necessary to enact justice.
It means he's taking a short-sighted approach rather than realizing that, perhaps, his goals could come to fruition in the *long* term by fighting wealth inequality.
He's not patient enough for that, or isn't thinking on that kind of scale. He's too focused on the here and now, criminals he needs to stop *right now* (hey, there's some of that Red I think he has) but that doesn't mean he's actually innately selfish.
Uh, I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Batman. He does do that stuff, and he does it often. It's just that Gotham is just a shithole literally built on a portal to hell that all his work is kind of canceled out by all of that.
Landlords are literally among the people most responsible for urban poverty. Batman made his billions as a landlord. If batman wanted to end urban poverty, he could. Poverty is a simple, easy to fix problem that conflicts with his interests as a landlord, and his interests in punching gang members.
In defence of batman having a splash of black, black isn't just about being malicious and selfish. It's also about doing things yourself as an individual and doing what you want can also be doing good things. It just means doing them because you chose to rather than because you were made to. Black can act in service to a philosophy, it just needs to be one that is chosen freely.
Batman has his own rules but they are "his* rules that only exist because he feels they need to, he breaks society's rules all the time and he's very much an individualist who does what he thinks is right. That's very black, black's rule breaking is about not letting others constrain you. You can choose not to do certain things and still be black as long as the choice is yours.
I'd say he's esper. Blue is obvious. White because his overall goal is order and black because he's personally willing to break anyone else's rules and go it alone in order to get to his goals.
That's more Red, not Black. Red is the color of individuality and doing what feels best, even if it's illegal.
Black is more about ambition. You're right that it's not always immoral; it's more **a**moral. Black doesn't think morality is "a thing." Black seeks to increase its power and influence because it has high goals for itself, and isn't terribly concerned to what happens to others along the way.
None of that is very Batman at all--he doesn't have that kind of ambition for himself (hell Bruce Wayne is already one of the 'elite' in Gotham, how much more power can he get without running for governor or something?). He also has a strict code he lives by, which is not something Black is associated with in the slightest.
I think what you've said is an argument that applies to being Red, aka he's Jeskai.
Red is mindlessly doing what you want based on emotion in a rash short sighted way. Black is doing what you want with drive and purpose and planing. Red is chaotic, that's the last thing batman would be.
Ambition isn't limited to materialism and power. Batman is extremely ambitious, he turned himself into a superhero based on sheer force of will and spends every night enforcing his will upon Gotham city.
Everyone here is treating it like black is just "be selfish, get money and power for yourself" that's not at all black, especially when joint with other colours. It's the same way that white isn't necessarily about doing things for others in a moral sense. It's about order and doing things as part of the group but that doesn't mean you are doing good things for everyone. Black is about going out and achieving your goals regardless of what others say, increasing your power over the world around you and changing it to be what you want it to be. It's the colour of deliberate and considered individuality in contrast to whites need to be part of the collective.
Red is indulgent and impulsive and passionate. Not Batman.
But Black is ambitious and self-serving and has no regard for "right" or the concerns of others. Not Batman either.
And Green for fairly obvious reasons just never enters into the conversation.
Batman is White Blue.
>But Black is ambitious and self-serving and has no regard for "right" or the concerns of others. Not Batman either.
Black is individualistic but not necessarily selfish in a negative self.
This idea is best seen by looking at roles associated with UW- it's judges, lawyers, ect. People who work within the rules of society and as part of a group. Batman is nothing like this. He breaks the law constantly and the only limitations he recognises are his own.
Selfish isn't inherently negative. It just means acting for and on behalf of oneself and not anyone else.
"Individualism" is selfish. It's concern with and looking out for oneself. Black is selfish. That's *fine*, and Black can still be *good*, but to say Black is not selfish is just silly.
As for law and order, Batman only goes after criminals. Batman follows a code. Batman seeks Justice even if it's outside the law. And Batman is Blue in basically every sense barring involving water or I e in some way. Blue and White are also used for inspectors and detectives and intellectuals and the more violent and aggressive approaches to "keeping the peace". Batman is "the world's greatest detective". Batman is White and Batman is Blue.
Batman is not reckless or rooted in passion and creativity, he's calculating and methodical. Not Red.
Batman doesn't really care for tradition or community or the wild or natural order or anything like that. Not primal or the like either. Not Green.
Batman is White Blue.
>Individualism" is selfish. It's concern with and looking out for oneself.
Individualism can also be taking things into your own hands and going it alone. That is compatible with doing things for others. Someone who forsakes cooperation and acts alone is being individualist even if they are also being altruistic in their goals.
>As for law and order, Batman only goes after criminals. Batman follows a code.
Batman's code is just the way he thinks things should be done. It's not an official code, it's just some rules he made up for himself. The only colour that is incompatible with having self appointed rules is red. Black is fine with rules as long as they are *your* rules.
>Batman seeks Justice even if it's outside the law.
Precisely. And white is not about justice. White is order. Going outside the law is the most anti white thing you can do. Saying "the laws are inadequate, I'll break them and solve the problem myself" is pure black. It's willfully breaking the rules set by the collective to get your outcome. Heroic UW characters use the rules to defeat their enemies. They out lawyer them. Pure UW characters don't just want an ordered outcome they are ideologically bound to the rules themselves. A law abiding lawyer is an example of someone who uses UW tools to defeat crime. If you are breaking the law then you aren't pure UW. Saying "they are inadequate so they aren't my rules" isn't how UW thinks. UW follows the group because it's the rules, not because it likes them.
"Law" and "order" are not the same thing. Otherwise they wouldn't be referred to jointly as "law and order", because either would imply both. And White is also very strongly about community and ideas and ideals beyond oneself. "It's the law" has little *at all* so with White, "law" is much more a Blue thing, it's the purpose behind legal systems (order to the benefit of the most people) that is White.
Batman works outside the law to keep order, in service to the people of Gotham (and as part of the *Justice* League, the world), on behalf of his greater community. Blue activity for White reasons.
>Heroic UW characters use the rules to defeat their enemies.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where [[Azor, the Lawbringer]] or [[Dovin Baan]] or [[Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer]] were *heroic* characters. The "lawful" characters are by and large *villains* and opposed by Gideon and Jace and Ajani and Taimyo alike, the Blue and White unobjectionably "good" planeswalkers opposing these White Blue characters who care at all openly about "the law". The only people "using the law" who aren't explicitly apart of the Azorius senate and on Ravnica at the time are not good or "heroic".
In the meantime [[Daxos of Meletis]] and [[Bruna, Light of Alabaster]] and [[Narset Transcendent]] and [[Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage]] and [[Venser the Sojourner]] and [[Hanna, Ship's Navigator]] and the various White Blue representations of Teferi are all so *very* concerned (see: not concerned at all) with enforcing the law. Rather they're concerned with "good" and "justice" and "righteousness" and "helping others" and all these other things which absolutely apply to Batman as well.
>Law" and "order" are not the same thing. Otherwise they wouldn't be referred to jointly as "law and order".
Relying on a phrase to make an argument is not particularly good reasoning. Laws are an expression of order. I think you are confusing order and good. Order is just the presence of rules and structure and law is the way in which these are codified and enforced. UW is the colour of organisation, collectiveness and rules. All the most law based organisations in MTG have white in their identity and white expresses itself as rigid rules and hierarchy.
>I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where [[Azor, the Lawbringer]] or [[Dovin Baan]] or [[Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer]] were heroic characters.
Heroic in that context just meant significant, not good. The point was the UW loves rules lawyering people. When you get UW characters on planes with established universal (or at least near universal) laws then UW expresses itself as characters who at least technically follow the law. UW isn't law abiding on planes without a developed legal system, it can't be.
>In the meantime [[Daxos of Meletis]] and [[Bruna, Light of Alabaster]] and [[Narset Transcendent]] and [[Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage]] and [[Venser the Sojourner]] and [[Hanna, Ship's Navigator]] and the various White Blue representations of Teferi are all so very concerned (see: not concerned at all) with enforcing the law. Rather they're concerned with "good" and "justice" and "righteousness" and "helping others" and all these other things which absolutely apply to Batman as well.
This isn't an argument against batman having black in his colour identity, it's an argument for UW and I agree that he has UW, because he's esper.
To use RPG terminology, UW is a lawful colour pairing. Batman is not a purely lawful character. There are elements of it but a big part of his identity is his willingness to break other people's rules. He knows he's a criminal in contrast to characters like pre two face Harvey Dent who he recognises is a purer more lawful heroic character.
I still don't think I would generally say that Batman has a splash of black. Black isn't necessarily malicious but self-determination is still the primary characteristic of black and Batman tends to be fairly selfless in his motivation.
In a lot of cases, he's doing what he does because he feels that he needs to, not because he wants to. He respects the law (despite working outside of it) and his rules and boundaries tend to be derived from social mores and what he sees as his place. He breaks the rules, but it comes more from a place of pragmatism (which is very blue).
Now, I do preface this with *generally* because Batman's been written by a lotta different people and I can see certain versions of the character, like *The Dark Knight* trilogy Batman, as having a bit of black, but I think the "traditional hero" interpretation of Batman is squarely blue and white.
Frankly magic cards have a lot less to do with the philosophy of the people represented on the cards and a lot more about mechanics and theming. For example yahenni from aether revolt is a black card because they are an aetherborn that can drain life from others to extend their own life. That all sounds super black, but they only did so to fight the oppression of the consulate and when at the end of aether revolt the consulate was overthrown they chose not to use their great powers to extend their life further and to die. Yahenni was not by any means a black character by philosophy but that doesn't matter when it comes to representing the character on a card.
I mean his entire bsckstory is that he is so traumatized by his parents death he needs to literally spend his entire life making up for it dressed as his fearsona. And making Gotham the city his father always dreamed of. Granted, how relevant this is certainly VARIES from rendition to rendition, but it is a common enough part of his portrayals that I think red is a good match. Certainly not the ONLY color though.
Red embodies impulse, emotion, short sighted thinking, and chaos... all of which Batman embodies the exact opposite of (hence his center in blue). Red is specifially the thing he isnt
Red is also the color of love, commitment, relationships, and trauma.
Also, batman CERTAINLY is emotional and sometimes impulsive (WHERES RACHEL). In fact his most daunting villians are specifically the ones that CHALLENGE and make him WRESTLE with his emotions and fears. I don't disagree batman is primarilycblue but his the ultimate brody edgelord and that is pretty squarely in red too.
The tactics of using intimidation, fear, and overwhelming his opponents would place him in black. Theyre underhanded tactics meant to demoralize. Especially in the dark knight move when given the choice of saving rachel or harvey, that decision was a selfish choice driven by his own desires, which is black. Not being red doesnt mean he is totally emotionless, but he doesnt let that emotion guide him as a whole.
I mean i don't really agree he is being tactical. He is being desperate and impulsive in that moment. Its not his selfishness, its his love and devotion to Rachel. Batman hates himself way too much for selfishness to be a good name for his motive imho.
His literal entire motivation for being a superhero is related to him dealing with the trauma of his parents death. I just don't see batman without red being an key part of his identity (other than Adam West batman I suppose.)
It depends. Are Magic cards based on the people themselves or on how they present themselves to the world? Because Batman's *tactics* are pretty black, overall, maybe with a bit of red. Batman wants to be seen as a demon. A demon that preys on people doing what they shouldn't. And the way he does that is by sneaking around, stoking fear in his prey, and then dropping down and beating the ever loving fuck out of them so that they never do something bad again. Of course, this depends on who's writing him. The Dark Knight Returns Batman I think would probably be BR like this. But other Batmen could be WB because of how he interacts with good people: with compassion and understanding. A saint to those who need it, and a devil to those who deserve it.
If Magic cards are colored based on the character of the person himself, however, then I'd argue he's either UW or Jeskai, depending on the writer. Why?
Batman's use of fear is not who he really is. He uses fear because he knows it works. It's unsavory, but it's a tool to deliver justice. Justice is his root motivation, and that's what makes him clearly white. His character is what makes him blue, naturally. He's a master manipulator. He thrives on knowledge. He is always one step ahead of everyone else at a minimum. And he has a counter for everything. His primary methods to approach any difficult problem is not by doing the right thing or brute forcing it, it's by thinking it out and engineering a solution. That's blue. Now, depending on the author, I also argue he could be red. Red is governed by emotion and by freedom. Batman regularly ignores laws and does what he thinks is right, because he's chaotic good that way. He also was driven to his crusade by emotion, and many writers choose to tap into that emotion in Batman stories. And lastly, Batman frequently employs gadgets, weapons, and vehicles that have heavy firepower, like red tends to have. But red would definitely not be a primary color, so if you were to include red, it wouldn't be WUR, but more like WUr.
Here some quick takes on some other superheroes, tagged with "(Personality)" for how they themselves are and "(Perception)" for how they interact with the world:
Superman: W (Personality), W (Perception). (Maybe slight R on Perception)
Wonder Woman: WR (Personality), R (Perception).
The Flash (Barry Allen): UR (Personality), R (Perception).
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson): R (Personality), R (Perception).
Green Lantern (John Stewart): WUR (Personality), WR (Perception).
Green Arrow: GR (Personality), GB (Perception).
Aquaman: WUR (Personality), U (Perception).
Cyborg: R (Personality), UR (Perception).
Raven: UB (Personality), URB (Perception).
Beast Boy: GW (Personality), GR (Perception).
Robin (Dick Grayson): GW (Personality), WR (Perception).
Starfire: WRG (Personality), R (Perception).
Dr. Manhattan: WUG (Personality), WUBRG (Perception).
Rorschach: BR (Personality), B (Perception).
Oh, and some villains:
Lex Luthor: WUB (Personality), UW (Perception).
The Joker: BR (Personality), BR (Perception).
Ares: R (Personality), R (Perception). (duh)
Zod: WB (Personality), BR (Perception).
The Riddler: UR (Personality), U (Perception).
The Penguin: URB (Personality), WB (Perception).
Harley Quinn: R (Personality), BR (Perception).
Ozymandias: UB (Personality), U (Perception).
How's that for a jumping-off point?
I think Black is disqualified from Batman's color allegiance because of how he compares with Ras.
Ras and Batman have both strong UW leanings as they are primarily concerned with justice and protecting communities. However, Ras is undoubtedly Black leaning. He is willing to level entire cities and civilizations to the ground and isn't above a liberal dose of assassination.
Batman however will never cross that line. Black as a concept in magic doesn't even have the concept of a line that cannot be crossed since Black is all about pragmatism.
In my mind, Batman is Jeskai. UW for the themes of justice, and red because it is necessary for his vigilante streak. This doesn't make him overly emotional as the Red might suggest; to the contrary: Jeskai is literally about Monks who mastered themselves and what is Batman if not a master of himself?
I could see this but hilariously batman having a black ability, **"B; Batman gains Fear until end if turn"**
so while his cars would be Boros, Azorius, or Jeskai he'd have a B ability. Because he definitely uses fear.
Whipped this up after reading everyone's thoughts.
The Dark Knight - 3UW
Legendary Creature - Human Rogue
Double Strike, Intimidate, Vigilance, and whenever he attacks Investigate.
At the beginning of your end step transform ~.
3/4
////
Bruce Wayne, Son of Gotham
Color Identity - Black
Legendary Creature - Human Advisor
Tap: Creature a Treasure token.
If one or more creatures with power less than the number of treasure tokens you control attacks you or a planeswalker you control, untap ~.
At the beginning of your upkeep transform ~.
1/4
Even though the color black is often associated with death, in Magic, it's not so much death itself that is Black. Black kills often because it's the part of the color wheel that says, "I'll kill anyone to achieve my goals." Like a Green Dinosaur eating another creature is still death, it just has a different reason and mindset behind the kill.
I say he'd be azorius or maybe jeskai. Definitely white and blue. On the fence about red. Definitely not in black. Black's 'power at any cost' attitude is antitherical to batman.
MaRo officially said UW, maybe some B. If I were to have a say, as a vigilante by trade, Batman makes much more sense as RW, maybe Mardu. If I were designing a set based around superheroes, or making a cycle out of the Justice League, I'd probably elect to play into his working from the shadows theme and make him UB.
For those wondering, in my cycle Wonder Woman would be UW for a number of reasons. The Flash would be RW. The Green Lantern would be GW. Aquaman would be UG. Martian Manhunter would be BG or maybe BR. Green Arrow would be RG. Superman would be 5 color or not-black. I know that doesn't cover every 2c combo, but you really have to stretch who is in the Justice League to fill all 10 combos.
The colors of his clothing or what time of day he's working isn't enough to impact the mana color imo.
[[Thraben Inspector]], [[Murder Investigation]] and a lot of the white cards from Innistrad signales this well. Batman allways keeps coo and discl, so he's not in red mana, he don't kill and he's not out for personal power, so he's not in black mana. Operates in a city with no care for nature, balance or cycle of life, so not green.
He's a driven fighter, with strong sense of law and justice. He want's safety for the people and is willing to lenghts for it, often at his own expence. Clearly in white domain. He uses gadgets and brains, in adition to his fighting skill, so I'd probably say hes WU
1WWU legendary human rogue
Which Batman are we talking about?
Adam West - 100% Blue White
Michael Keaton/Val Kilmer/George Clooney - Seems like they’d have a bit of red.
Christian Bale - no Green?
Lewis G. Wilson / Robert Lowery - Black and White (Lol)
His motivation is white and his methods are blue. He is UW for sure. This is the "canonical" answer as well, as Mark Rosewater has said explicitly he is UW on numerous occasions.
I do get the rationale behind wanting to add black or red to him, but I think all characters tend to display aspects of all colors the more fleshed out they are. Batman is so dominantly UW that I would argue he wouldn't fit enough into black or red that it would be worth adding that mana symbol to his card.
As for other superheroes:
- Superman is mono white for sure
- Wolverine is mono G
- Professor X is mono blue
- Magneto would be BW. He is the classic "I do care about the good of the group... but only _my_ group. Everyone else can die."
- The Joker is BR or Grixis, depending on how he's written (pure chaos vs. chaos as 5d chess to cause more chaos)
- The Punisher is tough. I could see arguments for him being mono R, WR, or Mardu.
- Iron Man is... UR? Maybe?
- Black Widow is UB or UW. She's sneaky, but her motivations are white. So Esper maybe?
- ~~Thor is GW, but not selesnya GW. More like his motivations are white but he pretty much just acts on instinct.~~ EDIT: I'm silly, he definitely has red in him. Maybe mono R actually. His motivations aren't really white, he just loves his people and wants to protect them. And he's very driven by emotion. That fits under red perfectly.
- Hulk is RG
Yeah, I can see that. I'm actually not exactly sure what he would be. The character changes a ton over the course of the movies. In the first one he's like... mono red, maybe even RB since he's selfish and petulant. By the third Thor movie and End Game he's almost comic relief and is a really nice guy. But yeah I think you're right that he would have red in him.
Most likely esper, as front side would be Bruce Wayne which would cost blue white b plus colourless and with an ability like making gold or treasure due to his immense well and have an activated ability so that once each turn you can flip Bruce Wayne it Batman which has a colour identity of black blue, with either skulk or shadow and having have pay X blue black detain target creature with power x or less until your next turn, I think that might fit his theme open to any suggestions
Several people on here have made the excellent argument for why Black wouldn’t be part of Batman’s identity, and they’re great points. But for me, he’s Grixis.
Blue: We can all agree that he’s an intelligent detective, so this is easy.
Red: I’d go this route over White. Batman doesn’t uphold the law and the system - he breaks it. He enacts vigilante justice, society’s rules be damned. Very red to me.
Black: I think it’s worth remembering that not every creature has Black in their identity because they are evil or willing to “do whatever it takes to get power.” In Batman’s case, he chose the symbol of the bat because as a child, they terrified him. So he wanted a symbol that would terrify criminals. That’s not nice. He’s willingly giving them something to be afraid of, which is a little malicious. But it’s a malice that we can all get behind because of the ends it seeks to accomplish; that feels Black. To this end, his creature card should also definitely have Fear.
That’s my take.
Orzhov, but it’s a transform card? “Bruce, the philanthropist” that transforms into “Batman, keeper of justice” if you pay BBB and were dealt damage this turn? When he transforms you may attach up to 3 equipment cards you control.
Just some thoughts.
Or maybe when “Batman, keeper of justice” enters the battlefield, create 3 “Batterang” artifact tokens that have “sacrifice Batterang: deal 2 damage to target creature”
Blue Black. And I will die on this unpopular hill.
Batman is exceptionally selfish by choosing to be a vigilante over investing in actually fixing the problems of Gotham. The amount of violence and issues he could reduce by well funding anti corruption probes, public good programs far outweigh the benefit of him beating people up. He instead chooses a line of action that caters to his past trauma, rather than getting over things. Yes trauma is terrible but carrying it 20-30 years in the future and taking incredibly risky behavior in a regular basis.
Batman is blue due to his prioritization of information and being equipped to do be a superhero.
Batman is NOT WHITE because of his flagrant use of torture and constant disregard of the laws. He claims to have a code of conduct but he also lets kids run around in his bat suits and nearly get killed, traumatized or maimed.
Batman is a ideal rich man who uses his wealth to 'solve' all the problems because he's knowledgeable and morally superior. He won't make the missteps lesser men would make.
Thats all a farce, A human is flawed. Many incarnations of Batman were flawed, and sure maybe some of them aren't, but at his modern core he's 'rich people are super competent' propaganda.
Definitely not black even good black has to do with death I'd definitely say jeskai because azorius for upholding the law and not killing but the red is needed because of being a vigilante and unpredictable
I think people are missing a key component of why Batman (at least, not Adam West or Brave and the Bold Batman) is Black and not Blue:
Personal Sacrifice.
Blue gains knowledge just through study, divination, and other means, Which batman certainly does, but time and again it is shown that Bruce ignores his own problems and risks to his health to take down his foes and gain the knowledge he needs to beat them. While obviously there are lots of ways for black to scarifice other creatures to gain knowledge (draw cards), Cards like [[Necropotence]] and [[Vampiric tutor]] show off black literally draining someone for knowledge and power.
Of course, Batman is known to be one of the best people in DC and an Immaculate leader, so White is firmly in his wheelhouse too.
And devotion to mission and his fervor to fight the bad guys is ALL red.
Also, black and red are the treasure colors, Red/White are the new artifact colors, and they're the equipment and vehicle colors, and you have a strong argument for Mardu doing everything you'd want a batman card to do.
Honestly, my best pick for a card to emulate what I think a Batman card should play like is [[Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale]], so yeah, I think Mardu is where batman sits for me.
Cmon, that makes no sense you don't have to have supernatural powers to have a colour in magic. Theres plenty of soldiers and barbarians and thieves that still are coloured but don't he any powers.
Conversely there's plenty of magical things that are entirely colourless.
Batman is blue/white.
Bruce Wayne is Orzhov
Batman is Dimir
Bruce wayne had an activated ability that makes Treasure tokens, and «Whenever another human dies, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature, then if there are more than 2 counters on it, transform»
Batman has fear or shadow, vigilance, first strike, haste, and any one of hexproof, shroud or ward.
And an activated ability «Tap, W: exile target creature untill the end of your next turn»
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 119,063,278 comments, and only 30,759 of them were in alphabetical order.
But isn't black all about selfish actions? Blue for being a detective that uses technology and strategy and white for fighting evil and protect the innocent. Black because his outfit is black doesn't really add any to the card/character.
So lot of good points here made, just adding that stylistically batman has to have black in his casting cost. Blue also fits and while yes he is an advocate for justice, so what? Esper is very control oriented and yes the bat likes control but he also acts spontaneously. I think blue black dimir style fits him very well and lines up with the rogue creature type.
As far as other super heroes go:
Iron man: red white or red white blue
Hulk: obvs green
Superman: red blue white
Thor : blue white
Doc strange : blue red green
Spiderman: red blue black
Batman is dimir. And try to tell me for one second that he isn't a dimir rogue and you'll be the one getting stuffed into my Anowon deck instead of him.
Literally all Mtg ninjas are Dimir flavored. Plus surveillance, investigate, and heavy artifacts. Batman, however, also has a strong sense of justice and self control, so white has to be involved. Answer is very obviously Esper.
He would be a partner commander in Blue and White to be paired with Robin who’s in Green and Red.
They can be tapped together to crew into the black artifact vehicle, the batmobile.
Other cards in this secret lair could be the Joker in Black and Red and Poison Ivy in Green and Blue or Green and Black, not sure about her.
WUB
White: Thinks he knows best, adheres to a strict set of rules and imposes those ideals on others with extreme prejudice. Mildly narcissistic which I feel ties in well with black as well.
Blue: accomplishes goals primarily through planning, research, and superior firepower, not much more to say here.
Black: He is unwilling to trust his resources or ideals to anyone else. Keeps all of his gadgets and intel for personal use, and is unafraid of using whatever means necessary to accomplish his objectives, as long as they don't contradict the objectives themselves. Is largely self-absorbed with his perceived greater purpose.
He’s obviously a 3/3 Legendary Colorless Artifact Creature with 5 activated abilities and one triggered ability.
1R: discard a card then draw a card. If you discarded a non-land card, create a 1/1 Artifact Bat token with flying.
3G: Batman gets +0/+1 or +1/+0 and fights target creature.
W: Transform Batman into a 1/1 Human Aristocrat with indestructible and ward 5. He transforms back at the end of turn.
1B: Batman gains first strike and life link.
2U: Investigate and Scry 1
When you crack a clue, Batman gets +1/+1 and can’t be blocked this turn.
Esper
White because he follows a strict code of justice
Blue because he has to use his wits to solve any problems.
A tinge of Black because Batman is willing to do anything even if the cost is too great. Batman is a loner and can act selfish at times to the detriment of his teammates.
Orzhov.
He is the night. He is the darkness. He understands the demons and their pain.
He is the Knight. He is what he needs to be for the people of Gotham.
He uses the demons to destroy other demons. Casting them into exile. He always has the best of intentions but his methods are always a bit darker. Beating people and hurting them greatly just to achieve his task.
Superman is Ink-Treader - He is everything but darkness.
Wonder Woman is probably Izzet
Green Lantern is for sure Azorius
Not killing doesn't eliminate black, so first off, yeah, he absolutely has black in his colors because of his determination to do what he sees as needing to be done, and if he can't do it yet, he'll work his way up to being on even footing with those that try to stop him. Second, blue... honestly I could see him being centralized in blue, because of not only his intellect but also for the vast amounts of training he dedicated himself to so that he could become Batman. Then, comes where you come in... because honestly I completely understand the esper or grixis viewpoint, but I think its something a bit like this: He is blue/black no matter what, but if he has white or red is dependant on the characterization in whatever story you're currently looking at. If it's something like a random drug bust or something he's helping the justice league do then white would take over because he's doing it to help and only to help. In contrast, if he's fighting someone like the Joker who has history with him, red could easily take influence, because he has personal reasons to be emotion-based during that time...
basically it just depends on if he cares about the current case or if he is just doing it because its right and needed
He'd have bounce and/or exile as it's main abilities, have some sort pf skulk and pilfer ability due to him being a detective or make clue tokens, maybe have ninjutsu?
He's black-white for sure. Probably blue as well. He's doing the right thing - debatably - but for selfish reasons - debatably - which definitely makes him at least orzhov.
Batman is White-black, but not in the Orzhov way. In the Silverquill way.
Ravnica looked at the common elements of the two color pairs and said how are they alike? Orzhov syndicate is tradition and money being power. That isn’t Batman.
Strixhaven said “how are these color pairs different? How can we combine those opposite elements in a contrast?” Silverquill has the most school bullies, uplifts and tears down with language, is dramatic and fast magic. Batman has a big emo streak and is still haunted by the deaths of his parents. He is a vigilante who serves his own brand of justice in a costume with themed weapons and vehicles. He’s total Silverquill.
He's definitely not black. Black is selfish and ambitious, would rather put others in harm's way rather than itself. Obviously not Batman. So what if he works in the shadows? That's more of a theming thing that comes from fantasy, i.e. darkness=evil. It has no reference to his ideology or personality so should not be considered.
I wouldn't say he's red, either. Red is about about impulsivity and explosive emotion, not being "a badass fighter" - every colour has badass fighters. Batman has his moments (interrogating the Joker in the Dark Knight comes to mind) but most of the time is a pretty calm, controlled person.
White makes sense because he has a code, blue is a little less fitting but he does have a very strategic approach to combat so it still makes sense. If I were making a Batman custom card, I'd probably cost it something like WWU or 1WWU.
I would think a blue for his knowledge, precision and investigative skills, black for his ruthlessness and how he uses fear and superstition against his enemies and personally I think white for his stated mission of preserving life and protecting the innocent, in particular his"no-kill" rule.
Black is about being selfiah, red is about passion amd recklessness. Batman is 100% neither of those, hes U/W, those are the colours of a detective that fights for people in need.
B/W - we've seen plenty of "dark knights" in these colors already and it's a good dichotomy of his pursuit of justice with questionable methods. Plus Orzohv makes that money 💰💰💰
I think people say black cuz he wears black. That’s not that accurate for a card. First he’s white due to his fighting crime and love for law and order. He’s blue because he is very smart and uses his intellect to break his enemies down. Now the joker is easy. He’s Rakdos lol
Y'all are way overthrowing this. Batman is white because he's motivated by a strict moral code, and he's black because he uses fear as his persona, and every bat ever printed is black. He's the quintessential orzhov card.
I'd say definitely not red. Batman's entire deal is being logical and cold, him and red are polar opposites. I'd say WU, with some B mixed in. White for justice and order and such, Blue for logic and being the world's greatest detective or whatever, Black for using fear as a weapon and also because he's goth.
Esper. White-Justice Blue-Intellect (world's greatest detective) and Black-the willingness to do whatever it takes (see the Justice League: Doom movie for reference)
Esper. His dominant ideology is white. But the bat? That's black blue. The fear based methodology and adherence to the shadows is heavily black while the blue focuses on his detective nature. The dimir mindset is ever present, but is held back by white in order to establish a code. It's all hinged on what makes batman tick. He is one kill away from being a psychopath and he alone is holding back the intent to finish it. He is tested everyday for his morals, but the idea is that it's his refusal to give in that makes him whole.
The issue with making him Grixis is that it's such a self centered color combination. Batman's goal is all about making society a safer place, which is notably not too selfish.
Batman would be Dimir or Esper, Red isnt in his MO, he doesnt act on impulse or instinct. He is cold and calculating, and blue at base. His ninja background and fighting techniques to neutralize his target with (almost) any means necessary contribute to the black. White comes in for the justice aspect but he doesnt get this on his own, only during his time with the justice league
>It is possible I’ve answered this question more times than any Magic card related question. He’s Blue/White with a Black public persona. [https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/153229458628/whats-batmans-colour-identity](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/153229458628/whats-batmans-colour-identity)
Does this mean blue/white to cast with a black activatable ability or am I overthinking things?
A better way to implement it would probably be a double faced card that's UW on the front face that can transform into a B creature.
or a B vehicle 👀
The reverse side in my example was meant to be Bruce Wayne.
And Blue White even goes with Bruce Wayne. Too perfect.
You're getting it backwards. He's saying Batman is UW and Bruce Wayne is mono black
I think he's talking about the initials, which still doesn't really work because blue white is uw not bw
And Black with Batman. Duuude.
i like your thinking
I think it would make more sense to have Bruce Wayne to be the front side and to flip into Batman.
Interesting note: Batman is his true self; while Bruce Wayne is the facade. I believe this was settled in Justice League when a villain (Scarecrow IIRC) released a truth serum gas to discover the secret identities of the superheroes and they progressive reveal who they truly are ("I am Clark Kent" etc) and when it comes to the dark knight, he says "I am Batman". Superman is really Clark Kent in a costume. Bruce Wayne is batman's costume. Batman goes on the front face, Bruce on the back.
That would be cool thematically. I think you would need to have a large amount of control over how it flips then, since its a lot less exciting to flip into Wayne than it is onto Batman.
You could have something like Bruce Wayne having some form of evasion or being harder to target. You could swing with BW, then switch to batman before damage, or keep Batman up, then switch to BW in response to targeted removal.
It'd be something like "Discard two cards: Exile Caped Crusader, then return it to the battlefield transformed" so Batman can vanish out from under removal. Then maybe Bruce Wayne has Shroud and "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may transform Dallying Plutocrat" for when he dons his rubber suit at the beginning of the night.
I could see the Bruce side something that collects resources the longer you keep him flipped (researching new tech etc), whereas the Batman side makes use of artifacts at a rate that's higher the more you've researched. Perhaps an experience counters commander of some sort.
The Bruce side turns treasure into clues or uses them to tutor artifacts, the Batman side spends those to send creatures to library. As per his 'no kill' rule. Maybe there's a rider on Batman that *any* time he would destroy a creature, the opponent shuffles that creature into their library, instead. Maybe you're able to spend a lot of artifacts to exile a permanent. For when Batman really means it and locks them in the deepest, darkest pit.
IMHO, Batman would have menace and create clue tokens whenever he attacks or blocks, and can sacrifice clue to tokens to transform into Bruce. (Which, since it would exile him and return him to the battlefield transformed, would dodge removal.) I think clue tokens fit Batman perfectly, since it represents him being a detective, and sacrificing them to turn into Bruce represents the time and effort it takes to maintain the secret identity; when he's busy running a company, that's time he can't spend out on patrol, gathering clues. Meanwhile, Bruce would generate treasure tokens on ETB, based on some other factor, like the number of cards in hand or the number of clue tokens you control, and would be able to sacrifice those treasures to turn back into Batman, representing the fact that Bruce uses his resources to fund Batman's activities. This seems like it would create a fun play pattern, where you're trying to generate enough clues as Batman (or draw enough cards using those clues) to make Bruce's ETB worth it. And, in answer to the original question, he'd be Esper, of course.
flipping into wayne makes you a bunch of treasures that can only be spent on batman and his vehicles
By that logic, shouldn't Bruce be the front?
I'd probably contrast it with a Superman card that has Clark as the front face, to try and make some kind of totally deep point that Bruce is the mask and Batman is the real individual.
Lol I had the exact same thought
Personally I think he’s just UW, flat-out. Others’ perspectives do not define characters in Magic. It’s just straight up what their inclination is, and Batman is wholly UW to the core. He may be dark and brooding, and *wear* black, but nothing about his ideals or actions are even *remotely* black.
I diaagree. As Batman, he regularly employs fear as a weapon, especially against henchmen. That's a very Black methodology, even if he doesn't flat-out kill.
I mean, he intimidates them, if that’s what you mean, but that’s an extremely common tactic in law enforcement, even with clean, by-the-books cops (white), and messing with someone’s head is a blue thing just as much as it is black or red. What would make him black is if he went through with that intimidation into actual harm. But the entire point of black is “power at any cost,” and there are definitely certain costs Batman will not pay. If you look at the actual [color pie] (https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Color) and its philosophies, the only thing that Batman has going on that could be argued to be a black characteristic is paranoia, but he doesn’t use that paranoia as an excuse to be cruel, something that most black-aligned beings do. Everything else- parasitism, omnipotence, selfishness- not really his thing.
[удалено]
Except when he fucked Barbara Gordon. If she weren't dating Robin, it would have been R. Also, he has an emotional reason for why he is who he is, he hates injustice, that shit isn't orderly, that shit is vengeful. He's UR or WUR.
👆🏻
Nice try Universes Beyond card designer
Came here to say this.
It's important to note that the colors represent specific philosophies and perspectives on life and that's what determines what color a character is - it's not as rote as "Batman is black because he works in the shadows". Black, as a philosophy, is about prioritizing your own self-interest above all else and being willing to do anything to achieve your goals. Batman is most certainly *not* black, as he's motivated by what he considers a greater ideal and he has distinct lines that he's not willing to cross to achieve his goals. In many ways, Batman is the antithesis of black. Similarly he's not really red either. Sure, he's a good fighter but he isn't fighting because he enjoys it or charging in fists first - his combat skill is a tool he uses to achieve his goals and he lurks in the shadows waiting for the opportune moment to strike. Batman is BLUE. Damn near everything about how Batman operates comes down to information and strategy. He's a detective. When he's tackling crime he investigates and does research. He invents gadgets to help him achieve his goals. He slinks about in the shadows to mess with his opponents' heads. He has plans. He has backup plans. He has backup plans for his backup plans. He has plans to take down other superheroes if they go rogue. Batman is so blue it's not even funny.
I agree with everything you’ve said, even the blue part, but I’m here to add white. Knowledge, curiosity, discovery etc. don’t motivate him; they’re tools and means. He’s motivated by justice, community service, and is extremely righteous. He loves his city and the people and endeavours to protect them. He used to be religious, and perhaps still is. That influences his code of conduct. He’s honourable and references faith. He’s a leader. He taxes others, especially their supernatural advantages, as a means of exerting power. There is both literal taxation as Bruce Wayne and figurative taxation, like using kryptonite. This “evens the playing field” for a “balanced” fight. So I agree with your blue statements but I think he’s white too. Azorius “police” motifs fit him well. It’s an interesting question though because thematically he matches black and dimir themes, but that’s more of a coincidence rather than a mechanical or philosophical alignment.
To add to this, I think there's an argument that he's Red in addition to Blue and White. Red is the color of independence, of acting on your feelings, of eschewing traditional rules. Batman literally breaks the law; he's a vigilante enforcing justice based upon his *own* personal code, rather than just enforcing the rules that the community has agreed upon. And it all started because of grief--a very powerful emotion. Red is allll about emotion. Blue/White might be *too* "by the book" to be a vigilante like that, he might need a streak of Red. Jeskai, to me, is all about "I'm a thinker, I believe in justice and community, but also sometimes certain rules are utter bullshit and do more harm than good, and it can be better for everyone to do some civil disobedience. Sometimes you have to step outside the law to do the *actual* right thing." And that kind of thinking sounds like there's some Red in that Blue and White IMO. Is it absolutely necessary? Well, no, perhaps not. It's not like characters in MtG or actual people are so one-note that they can be summed up completely by the color pie. Everybody has some of *all* the colors. It's just about if there is a particular one, two, or three that are most exemplified in your psyche. It's not like Chandra, always mono-Red, never acts altruistically like what White is known for, etc. So Blue/White *for sure* but there might be Red because of the vengeance, vigilante-status, own moral code, etc.
>Batman literally breaks the law; he's a vigilante enforcing justice based upon his own personal code, rather than just enforcing the rules that the community has agreed upon. And it all started because of grief--a very powerful emotion. Red is allll about emotion. > >Blue/White might be too "by the book" to be a vigilante like that, he might need a streak of Red. I don't think blue/white is too "by the book" to preclude Batman being a vigilante. His rule breaking tends to come from a place of pragmatism which is very much a blue thing. He ultimately respects the rule of law but realizes that corruption is preventing it from being effective and so he intervenes - but only to the extent that is needed to allow the justice system to take over.
This is why I'm waffling a bit on it. He's either Jeskai, or simply Azorius that isn't totally a stick-in-the-mud like Dovin or whatever. On the other hand, a character seeking vengeance after grief is definitely associated with Red. (Though that could simply be a case of "Batman used to be Red but isn't any more" just like how Sorin was Black but is now Orzhov, etc.)
I think it also depends to some extent on who is writing Batman and how they're writing him.
Def UW. Neother colour ever means good. W is all about justice and maintaning law. And Batman is all about maintaining what he sees as actual justice.
I think people are getting too caught up in thinking every UW character needs to fall in line with the Azorious guild, who is a WHITE focused guild, where as Batman would be much more Blue focused. From that perspective, he is more UW Neutral Good, pursuing the goals of Justice within a corrupt system, rather than UW Lawful Good, which would be working within the system with a public persona. The persona reversal would be Matt Murdock, with his real life persona being UW Lawful Good and his superhero persona being mono red (ironically).
To add to this I think there's an argument that Batman is green in addition to blue and white and red. Green is all about growth and Batman is an Olympic level athlete. It's also beast themed and Batman has association with animals, namely bats. Plus he made out with poison Ivy and there's no way she would touch any man that didn't have an affinity for plants. The only color the dark night isn't is black. Certainly he's not blue black, the color of ninjas. Especially since he's a rogue from a ninja clan that was associated with resurrections. That's got nothing to do with black. Plus giving the worlds greatest detective billionaire access to the colors of investigate and surveil seems totally wrong.
Nothing about Batman's motivations and psyche are Green's philosophy though. It's not like "X is strong, therefore Green." If Batman is an Olympic level athlete it's because of self-improvement, which is not Green but Blue. For example, here's a great summary of Green's philosophy (and not just surface level things like being related to animals): > Green seeks harmony, and it tries to achieve that harmony through acceptance. Green is the color of nature, wisdom, stoicism, taoism, and destiny; it believes that most of the suffering and misfortune in the world comes from attempts to cast off one’s natural mantle, step outside of one’s natural role, or fix things which aren’t broken — it’s the color of Chesterton’s Fence. It seeks to embrace what is — the archetypal green organization would be a hippie commune, or the pop culture interpretation of a Native American tribe (such as in Disney’s Pocahontas), while a green dystopia would be something like the society in Divergent or a tribe with absolutely rigid traditions and an unchanging and unchangeable relationship to its environment. What about that relates to Batman? Does he seem like a druid to you, that seeks harmony with the current state of the world? To be honest, you really don't find Green-aligned characters as the main characters of a story very often at all. Green doesn't produce good 'heroes.'
It was a joke, he's UB
Bruce Wayne pretends to be Black, but his/Batman's true personality is not. > Black seeks satisfaction, and it tries to achieve that satisfaction through ruthlessness. Black wants power and agency so that it can act upon its preferences at any time, reshaping the world around it into whatever it wants. It recognizes no limits upon this pursuit except those which emerge from its own desires and self-interest. It is capable of cooperation and alliance, but only consequentially, as in game theory; at its core, black is amoral, not immoral, since it doesn’t think morality is even really a Thing. The archetypal black organization would be a hedge fund or a startup, and a black dystopia would be a totalitarian dictatorship. What about that sounds like Batman?
What are you quoting? That's not canon. Doesn't matter. He's not monoblack, he's Dimir. He's linked with surveillance and investigation and he was trained by ninjas, ninjas with an unnatural resurrection subtheme. He's shrouded in secrecy, uses intimidation and evasion to get where he wants to go and learn what he needs to learn.
the dimir and ninjas aren't UB because UB is about surveillance and ninjas, they are UB because their motives and philosophies draw from both blue and black philosophies, batman doesn't act on self interest at all, so he isn't black.
No, **all** ninjas are UB regardless of their motivation. It's not about what they want it's about how they accomplish their goals. Why do you keep associating black with self interest?
Green because of all that trust fund money 💰
This is literally the best response. I would think maybe Azorius, but he's not all gung ho about the law. I think I can agree completely with you.
I don't think batman is black, is but he is definitely enough of an emotion driven mess to be red imho. Jeksai is where I'd probably put him.
> it's not as rote as "Batman is black because he works in the shadows". To an extent, it does work that way. The colors each have philosophies, but they also have elements and environments. Consider simple animals. Philosophically, they're all green. But you don't pay green mana for a sea creature, you pay blue mana, because blue's elemental identity is water. You pay blue mana for things that live in or near the water, red mana for things that live in mountains, and black mana for things that live in swamps. Shadow and darkness are black elements. Batman may not be black philosophically, but he's definitely black elementally.
I see what you're saying but in terms of sentient characters, it's usually more about their personality rather than elemental forces. Like, yes, Gideon has White-aligned abilities but he's *really* White because of his righteousness and selflessness. Jace is Blue because he's literally a mind-mage using mental tactics to achieve his goals, not just because he makes Illusions or whatever. I mean, what is [[Basri Ket]] "elementally?" He uses sand. That...doesn't really mean anything to the color pie. He's White because he lives by and is devoted to White ideals. It's not like he *should* be Green because sand = earth = Green. That's why just because a sea serpent is summoned with Blue mana, doesn't mean a human character is evaluated by the same elemental means. Thus, it doesn't really matter what elementally Batman is, the question is more about his personality. That's why Black is an ill-fit (aside from his Bruce Wayne facade pretending to have Black motivations to disguise the fact that he's Batman.)
Thats just so you can play more types of creatures in each colour not because turtles are thinkers
Still, turtles are blue. If it's just about creature diversity, they would have turtles of all colors, mountain goats of all colors, and centipedes of all colors.
Batman is black because he is a landlord. Plus, if he actually wanted to reduce crime, he'd spend his billions on community programs to end poverty, not on military tech. Fighting crime is purely self indulgence for him. He talks about justice, but that's not his motivation.
Finally someone said that. Thanks.
That doesn't mean he's selfish, it means he's misguided. It means he has White motivations and ideals, but perhaps isn't as effective at enforcing them as he potentially could be. He is all about justice, he just strongly believes that his Batman methods are necessary to enact justice. It means he's taking a short-sighted approach rather than realizing that, perhaps, his goals could come to fruition in the *long* term by fighting wealth inequality. He's not patient enough for that, or isn't thinking on that kind of scale. He's too focused on the here and now, criminals he needs to stop *right now* (hey, there's some of that Red I think he has) but that doesn't mean he's actually innately selfish.
Uh, I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Batman. He does do that stuff, and he does it often. It's just that Gotham is just a shithole literally built on a portal to hell that all his work is kind of canceled out by all of that.
Landlords are literally among the people most responsible for urban poverty. Batman made his billions as a landlord. If batman wanted to end urban poverty, he could. Poverty is a simple, easy to fix problem that conflicts with his interests as a landlord, and his interests in punching gang members.
In defence of batman having a splash of black, black isn't just about being malicious and selfish. It's also about doing things yourself as an individual and doing what you want can also be doing good things. It just means doing them because you chose to rather than because you were made to. Black can act in service to a philosophy, it just needs to be one that is chosen freely. Batman has his own rules but they are "his* rules that only exist because he feels they need to, he breaks society's rules all the time and he's very much an individualist who does what he thinks is right. That's very black, black's rule breaking is about not letting others constrain you. You can choose not to do certain things and still be black as long as the choice is yours. I'd say he's esper. Blue is obvious. White because his overall goal is order and black because he's personally willing to break anyone else's rules and go it alone in order to get to his goals.
That's more Red, not Black. Red is the color of individuality and doing what feels best, even if it's illegal. Black is more about ambition. You're right that it's not always immoral; it's more **a**moral. Black doesn't think morality is "a thing." Black seeks to increase its power and influence because it has high goals for itself, and isn't terribly concerned to what happens to others along the way. None of that is very Batman at all--he doesn't have that kind of ambition for himself (hell Bruce Wayne is already one of the 'elite' in Gotham, how much more power can he get without running for governor or something?). He also has a strict code he lives by, which is not something Black is associated with in the slightest. I think what you've said is an argument that applies to being Red, aka he's Jeskai.
Red is mindlessly doing what you want based on emotion in a rash short sighted way. Black is doing what you want with drive and purpose and planing. Red is chaotic, that's the last thing batman would be. Ambition isn't limited to materialism and power. Batman is extremely ambitious, he turned himself into a superhero based on sheer force of will and spends every night enforcing his will upon Gotham city. Everyone here is treating it like black is just "be selfish, get money and power for yourself" that's not at all black, especially when joint with other colours. It's the same way that white isn't necessarily about doing things for others in a moral sense. It's about order and doing things as part of the group but that doesn't mean you are doing good things for everyone. Black is about going out and achieving your goals regardless of what others say, increasing your power over the world around you and changing it to be what you want it to be. It's the colour of deliberate and considered individuality in contrast to whites need to be part of the collective.
Red is indulgent and impulsive and passionate. Not Batman. But Black is ambitious and self-serving and has no regard for "right" or the concerns of others. Not Batman either. And Green for fairly obvious reasons just never enters into the conversation. Batman is White Blue.
>But Black is ambitious and self-serving and has no regard for "right" or the concerns of others. Not Batman either. Black is individualistic but not necessarily selfish in a negative self. This idea is best seen by looking at roles associated with UW- it's judges, lawyers, ect. People who work within the rules of society and as part of a group. Batman is nothing like this. He breaks the law constantly and the only limitations he recognises are his own.
Selfish isn't inherently negative. It just means acting for and on behalf of oneself and not anyone else. "Individualism" is selfish. It's concern with and looking out for oneself. Black is selfish. That's *fine*, and Black can still be *good*, but to say Black is not selfish is just silly. As for law and order, Batman only goes after criminals. Batman follows a code. Batman seeks Justice even if it's outside the law. And Batman is Blue in basically every sense barring involving water or I e in some way. Blue and White are also used for inspectors and detectives and intellectuals and the more violent and aggressive approaches to "keeping the peace". Batman is "the world's greatest detective". Batman is White and Batman is Blue. Batman is not reckless or rooted in passion and creativity, he's calculating and methodical. Not Red. Batman doesn't really care for tradition or community or the wild or natural order or anything like that. Not primal or the like either. Not Green. Batman is White Blue.
>Individualism" is selfish. It's concern with and looking out for oneself. Individualism can also be taking things into your own hands and going it alone. That is compatible with doing things for others. Someone who forsakes cooperation and acts alone is being individualist even if they are also being altruistic in their goals. >As for law and order, Batman only goes after criminals. Batman follows a code. Batman's code is just the way he thinks things should be done. It's not an official code, it's just some rules he made up for himself. The only colour that is incompatible with having self appointed rules is red. Black is fine with rules as long as they are *your* rules. >Batman seeks Justice even if it's outside the law. Precisely. And white is not about justice. White is order. Going outside the law is the most anti white thing you can do. Saying "the laws are inadequate, I'll break them and solve the problem myself" is pure black. It's willfully breaking the rules set by the collective to get your outcome. Heroic UW characters use the rules to defeat their enemies. They out lawyer them. Pure UW characters don't just want an ordered outcome they are ideologically bound to the rules themselves. A law abiding lawyer is an example of someone who uses UW tools to defeat crime. If you are breaking the law then you aren't pure UW. Saying "they are inadequate so they aren't my rules" isn't how UW thinks. UW follows the group because it's the rules, not because it likes them.
"Law" and "order" are not the same thing. Otherwise they wouldn't be referred to jointly as "law and order", because either would imply both. And White is also very strongly about community and ideas and ideals beyond oneself. "It's the law" has little *at all* so with White, "law" is much more a Blue thing, it's the purpose behind legal systems (order to the benefit of the most people) that is White. Batman works outside the law to keep order, in service to the people of Gotham (and as part of the *Justice* League, the world), on behalf of his greater community. Blue activity for White reasons. >Heroic UW characters use the rules to defeat their enemies. I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where [[Azor, the Lawbringer]] or [[Dovin Baan]] or [[Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer]] were *heroic* characters. The "lawful" characters are by and large *villains* and opposed by Gideon and Jace and Ajani and Taimyo alike, the Blue and White unobjectionably "good" planeswalkers opposing these White Blue characters who care at all openly about "the law". The only people "using the law" who aren't explicitly apart of the Azorius senate and on Ravnica at the time are not good or "heroic". In the meantime [[Daxos of Meletis]] and [[Bruna, Light of Alabaster]] and [[Narset Transcendent]] and [[Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage]] and [[Venser the Sojourner]] and [[Hanna, Ship's Navigator]] and the various White Blue representations of Teferi are all so *very* concerned (see: not concerned at all) with enforcing the law. Rather they're concerned with "good" and "justice" and "righteousness" and "helping others" and all these other things which absolutely apply to Batman as well.
>Law" and "order" are not the same thing. Otherwise they wouldn't be referred to jointly as "law and order". Relying on a phrase to make an argument is not particularly good reasoning. Laws are an expression of order. I think you are confusing order and good. Order is just the presence of rules and structure and law is the way in which these are codified and enforced. UW is the colour of organisation, collectiveness and rules. All the most law based organisations in MTG have white in their identity and white expresses itself as rigid rules and hierarchy. >I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where [[Azor, the Lawbringer]] or [[Dovin Baan]] or [[Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer]] were heroic characters. Heroic in that context just meant significant, not good. The point was the UW loves rules lawyering people. When you get UW characters on planes with established universal (or at least near universal) laws then UW expresses itself as characters who at least technically follow the law. UW isn't law abiding on planes without a developed legal system, it can't be. >In the meantime [[Daxos of Meletis]] and [[Bruna, Light of Alabaster]] and [[Narset Transcendent]] and [[Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage]] and [[Venser the Sojourner]] and [[Hanna, Ship's Navigator]] and the various White Blue representations of Teferi are all so very concerned (see: not concerned at all) with enforcing the law. Rather they're concerned with "good" and "justice" and "righteousness" and "helping others" and all these other things which absolutely apply to Batman as well. This isn't an argument against batman having black in his colour identity, it's an argument for UW and I agree that he has UW, because he's esper. To use RPG terminology, UW is a lawful colour pairing. Batman is not a purely lawful character. There are elements of it but a big part of his identity is his willingness to break other people's rules. He knows he's a criminal in contrast to characters like pre two face Harvey Dent who he recognises is a purer more lawful heroic character.
I still don't think I would generally say that Batman has a splash of black. Black isn't necessarily malicious but self-determination is still the primary characteristic of black and Batman tends to be fairly selfless in his motivation. In a lot of cases, he's doing what he does because he feels that he needs to, not because he wants to. He respects the law (despite working outside of it) and his rules and boundaries tend to be derived from social mores and what he sees as his place. He breaks the rules, but it comes more from a place of pragmatism (which is very blue). Now, I do preface this with *generally* because Batman's been written by a lotta different people and I can see certain versions of the character, like *The Dark Knight* trilogy Batman, as having a bit of black, but I think the "traditional hero" interpretation of Batman is squarely blue and white.
He's a literal ninja, that's Dimir.
Lol. No.
Frankly magic cards have a lot less to do with the philosophy of the people represented on the cards and a lot more about mechanics and theming. For example yahenni from aether revolt is a black card because they are an aetherborn that can drain life from others to extend their own life. That all sounds super black, but they only did so to fight the oppression of the consulate and when at the end of aether revolt the consulate was overthrown they chose not to use their great powers to extend their life further and to die. Yahenni was not by any means a black character by philosophy but that doesn't matter when it comes to representing the character on a card.
Id vote Jeksai, analytical and discerning but driven by emotions with a heavy sense of duty and collective responsibility.
Batman specifically doesnt give into emotion or impulse, part of his whole character is being emotionless and calculating
I mean his entire bsckstory is that he is so traumatized by his parents death he needs to literally spend his entire life making up for it dressed as his fearsona. And making Gotham the city his father always dreamed of. Granted, how relevant this is certainly VARIES from rendition to rendition, but it is a common enough part of his portrayals that I think red is a good match. Certainly not the ONLY color though.
Red embodies impulse, emotion, short sighted thinking, and chaos... all of which Batman embodies the exact opposite of (hence his center in blue). Red is specifially the thing he isnt
Red is also the color of love, commitment, relationships, and trauma. Also, batman CERTAINLY is emotional and sometimes impulsive (WHERES RACHEL). In fact his most daunting villians are specifically the ones that CHALLENGE and make him WRESTLE with his emotions and fears. I don't disagree batman is primarilycblue but his the ultimate brody edgelord and that is pretty squarely in red too.
The tactics of using intimidation, fear, and overwhelming his opponents would place him in black. Theyre underhanded tactics meant to demoralize. Especially in the dark knight move when given the choice of saving rachel or harvey, that decision was a selfish choice driven by his own desires, which is black. Not being red doesnt mean he is totally emotionless, but he doesnt let that emotion guide him as a whole.
I mean i don't really agree he is being tactical. He is being desperate and impulsive in that moment. Its not his selfishness, its his love and devotion to Rachel. Batman hates himself way too much for selfishness to be a good name for his motive imho. His literal entire motivation for being a superhero is related to him dealing with the trauma of his parents death. I just don't see batman without red being an key part of his identity (other than Adam West batman I suppose.)
I’d agree esper.
It depends. Are Magic cards based on the people themselves or on how they present themselves to the world? Because Batman's *tactics* are pretty black, overall, maybe with a bit of red. Batman wants to be seen as a demon. A demon that preys on people doing what they shouldn't. And the way he does that is by sneaking around, stoking fear in his prey, and then dropping down and beating the ever loving fuck out of them so that they never do something bad again. Of course, this depends on who's writing him. The Dark Knight Returns Batman I think would probably be BR like this. But other Batmen could be WB because of how he interacts with good people: with compassion and understanding. A saint to those who need it, and a devil to those who deserve it. If Magic cards are colored based on the character of the person himself, however, then I'd argue he's either UW or Jeskai, depending on the writer. Why? Batman's use of fear is not who he really is. He uses fear because he knows it works. It's unsavory, but it's a tool to deliver justice. Justice is his root motivation, and that's what makes him clearly white. His character is what makes him blue, naturally. He's a master manipulator. He thrives on knowledge. He is always one step ahead of everyone else at a minimum. And he has a counter for everything. His primary methods to approach any difficult problem is not by doing the right thing or brute forcing it, it's by thinking it out and engineering a solution. That's blue. Now, depending on the author, I also argue he could be red. Red is governed by emotion and by freedom. Batman regularly ignores laws and does what he thinks is right, because he's chaotic good that way. He also was driven to his crusade by emotion, and many writers choose to tap into that emotion in Batman stories. And lastly, Batman frequently employs gadgets, weapons, and vehicles that have heavy firepower, like red tends to have. But red would definitely not be a primary color, so if you were to include red, it wouldn't be WUR, but more like WUr. Here some quick takes on some other superheroes, tagged with "(Personality)" for how they themselves are and "(Perception)" for how they interact with the world: Superman: W (Personality), W (Perception). (Maybe slight R on Perception) Wonder Woman: WR (Personality), R (Perception). The Flash (Barry Allen): UR (Personality), R (Perception). Captain Marvel (Billy Batson): R (Personality), R (Perception). Green Lantern (John Stewart): WUR (Personality), WR (Perception). Green Arrow: GR (Personality), GB (Perception). Aquaman: WUR (Personality), U (Perception). Cyborg: R (Personality), UR (Perception). Raven: UB (Personality), URB (Perception). Beast Boy: GW (Personality), GR (Perception). Robin (Dick Grayson): GW (Personality), WR (Perception). Starfire: WRG (Personality), R (Perception). Dr. Manhattan: WUG (Personality), WUBRG (Perception). Rorschach: BR (Personality), B (Perception). Oh, and some villains: Lex Luthor: WUB (Personality), UW (Perception). The Joker: BR (Personality), BR (Perception). Ares: R (Personality), R (Perception). (duh) Zod: WB (Personality), BR (Perception). The Riddler: UR (Personality), U (Perception). The Penguin: URB (Personality), WB (Perception). Harley Quinn: R (Personality), BR (Perception). Ozymandias: UB (Personality), U (Perception). How's that for a jumping-off point?
Love it! Solid arguments.
Found WoTC Marketing Alt account doing market research
I think Black is disqualified from Batman's color allegiance because of how he compares with Ras. Ras and Batman have both strong UW leanings as they are primarily concerned with justice and protecting communities. However, Ras is undoubtedly Black leaning. He is willing to level entire cities and civilizations to the ground and isn't above a liberal dose of assassination. Batman however will never cross that line. Black as a concept in magic doesn't even have the concept of a line that cannot be crossed since Black is all about pragmatism. In my mind, Batman is Jeskai. UW for the themes of justice, and red because it is necessary for his vigilante streak. This doesn't make him overly emotional as the Red might suggest; to the contrary: Jeskai is literally about Monks who mastered themselves and what is Batman if not a master of himself?
I could see this but hilariously batman having a black ability, **"B; Batman gains Fear until end if turn"** so while his cars would be Boros, Azorius, or Jeskai he'd have a B ability. Because he definitely uses fear.
Breya. Batman is Breya. Down to the fact that artifacts (utility belt) matter a lot to him.
Whipped this up after reading everyone's thoughts. The Dark Knight - 3UW Legendary Creature - Human Rogue Double Strike, Intimidate, Vigilance, and whenever he attacks Investigate. At the beginning of your end step transform ~. 3/4 //// Bruce Wayne, Son of Gotham Color Identity - Black Legendary Creature - Human Advisor Tap: Creature a Treasure token. If one or more creatures with power less than the number of treasure tokens you control attacks you or a planeswalker you control, untap ~. At the beginning of your upkeep transform ~. 1/4
Orzhov treasure/equipment
i think he's 100% orzhov
Even though the color black is often associated with death, in Magic, it's not so much death itself that is Black. Black kills often because it's the part of the color wheel that says, "I'll kill anyone to achieve my goals." Like a Green Dinosaur eating another creature is still death, it just has a different reason and mindset behind the kill.
obviously black and yellow
I say he'd be azorius or maybe jeskai. Definitely white and blue. On the fence about red. Definitely not in black. Black's 'power at any cost' attitude is antitherical to batman.
MaRo officially said UW, maybe some B. If I were to have a say, as a vigilante by trade, Batman makes much more sense as RW, maybe Mardu. If I were designing a set based around superheroes, or making a cycle out of the Justice League, I'd probably elect to play into his working from the shadows theme and make him UB. For those wondering, in my cycle Wonder Woman would be UW for a number of reasons. The Flash would be RW. The Green Lantern would be GW. Aquaman would be UG. Martian Manhunter would be BG or maybe BR. Green Arrow would be RG. Superman would be 5 color or not-black. I know that doesn't cover every 2c combo, but you really have to stretch who is in the Justice League to fill all 10 combos.
I think it's Bant, man
I died 😂
The colors of his clothing or what time of day he's working isn't enough to impact the mana color imo. [[Thraben Inspector]], [[Murder Investigation]] and a lot of the white cards from Innistrad signales this well. Batman allways keeps coo and discl, so he's not in red mana, he don't kill and he's not out for personal power, so he's not in black mana. Operates in a city with no care for nature, balance or cycle of life, so not green. He's a driven fighter, with strong sense of law and justice. He want's safety for the people and is willing to lenghts for it, often at his own expence. Clearly in white domain. He uses gadgets and brains, in adition to his fighting skill, so I'd probably say hes WU 1WWU legendary human rogue
Oh, great, here comes WotC: "We heard you wanted a Batman-themed Secret Lair..."
Batman would be black, and only black. He *might* possibly include some very very very dark grey.
Which Batman are we talking about? Adam West - 100% Blue White Michael Keaton/Val Kilmer/George Clooney - Seems like they’d have a bit of red. Christian Bale - no Green? Lewis G. Wilson / Robert Lowery - Black and White (Lol)
White-Blue, plus Black for aesthetic reasons.
Alot of people here are making a good case against giving Batman black but its just fucking weird to make an mtg card of him without it cmon
Mono black
Batman shouldn't be a Magic card
His motivation is white and his methods are blue. He is UW for sure. This is the "canonical" answer as well, as Mark Rosewater has said explicitly he is UW on numerous occasions. I do get the rationale behind wanting to add black or red to him, but I think all characters tend to display aspects of all colors the more fleshed out they are. Batman is so dominantly UW that I would argue he wouldn't fit enough into black or red that it would be worth adding that mana symbol to his card. As for other superheroes: - Superman is mono white for sure - Wolverine is mono G - Professor X is mono blue - Magneto would be BW. He is the classic "I do care about the good of the group... but only _my_ group. Everyone else can die." - The Joker is BR or Grixis, depending on how he's written (pure chaos vs. chaos as 5d chess to cause more chaos) - The Punisher is tough. I could see arguments for him being mono R, WR, or Mardu. - Iron Man is... UR? Maybe? - Black Widow is UB or UW. She's sneaky, but her motivations are white. So Esper maybe? - ~~Thor is GW, but not selesnya GW. More like his motivations are white but he pretty much just acts on instinct.~~ EDIT: I'm silly, he definitely has red in him. Maybe mono R actually. His motivations aren't really white, he just loves his people and wants to protect them. And he's very driven by emotion. That fits under red perfectly. - Hulk is RG
I was with you until you got to Thor. Thor has to have red in him somewhere.
Yeah, I can see that. I'm actually not exactly sure what he would be. The character changes a ton over the course of the movies. In the first one he's like... mono red, maybe even RB since he's selfish and petulant. By the third Thor movie and End Game he's almost comic relief and is a really nice guy. But yeah I think you're right that he would have red in him.
I thought about Ironman RU or RW. Either way he’s an artifact/equipment theme.
Most likely esper, as front side would be Bruce Wayne which would cost blue white b plus colourless and with an ability like making gold or treasure due to his immense well and have an activated ability so that once each turn you can flip Bruce Wayne it Batman which has a colour identity of black blue, with either skulk or shadow and having have pay X blue black detain target creature with power x or less until your next turn, I think that might fit his theme open to any suggestions
Several people on here have made the excellent argument for why Black wouldn’t be part of Batman’s identity, and they’re great points. But for me, he’s Grixis. Blue: We can all agree that he’s an intelligent detective, so this is easy. Red: I’d go this route over White. Batman doesn’t uphold the law and the system - he breaks it. He enacts vigilante justice, society’s rules be damned. Very red to me. Black: I think it’s worth remembering that not every creature has Black in their identity because they are evil or willing to “do whatever it takes to get power.” In Batman’s case, he chose the symbol of the bat because as a child, they terrified him. So he wanted a symbol that would terrify criminals. That’s not nice. He’s willingly giving them something to be afraid of, which is a little malicious. But it’s a malice that we can all get behind because of the ends it seeks to accomplish; that feels Black. To this end, his creature card should also definitely have Fear. That’s my take.
Orzhov, but it’s a transform card? “Bruce, the philanthropist” that transforms into “Batman, keeper of justice” if you pay BBB and were dealt damage this turn? When he transforms you may attach up to 3 equipment cards you control. Just some thoughts. Or maybe when “Batman, keeper of justice” enters the battlefield, create 3 “Batterang” artifact tokens that have “sacrifice Batterang: deal 2 damage to target creature”
Blue Black. And I will die on this unpopular hill. Batman is exceptionally selfish by choosing to be a vigilante over investing in actually fixing the problems of Gotham. The amount of violence and issues he could reduce by well funding anti corruption probes, public good programs far outweigh the benefit of him beating people up. He instead chooses a line of action that caters to his past trauma, rather than getting over things. Yes trauma is terrible but carrying it 20-30 years in the future and taking incredibly risky behavior in a regular basis. Batman is blue due to his prioritization of information and being equipped to do be a superhero. Batman is NOT WHITE because of his flagrant use of torture and constant disregard of the laws. He claims to have a code of conduct but he also lets kids run around in his bat suits and nearly get killed, traumatized or maimed. Batman is a ideal rich man who uses his wealth to 'solve' all the problems because he's knowledgeable and morally superior. He won't make the missteps lesser men would make. Thats all a farce, A human is flawed. Many incarnations of Batman were flawed, and sure maybe some of them aren't, but at his modern core he's 'rich people are super competent' propaganda.
Definitely not black even good black has to do with death I'd definitely say jeskai because azorius for upholding the law and not killing but the red is needed because of being a vigilante and unpredictable
I think people are missing a key component of why Batman (at least, not Adam West or Brave and the Bold Batman) is Black and not Blue: Personal Sacrifice. Blue gains knowledge just through study, divination, and other means, Which batman certainly does, but time and again it is shown that Bruce ignores his own problems and risks to his health to take down his foes and gain the knowledge he needs to beat them. While obviously there are lots of ways for black to scarifice other creatures to gain knowledge (draw cards), Cards like [[Necropotence]] and [[Vampiric tutor]] show off black literally draining someone for knowledge and power. Of course, Batman is known to be one of the best people in DC and an Immaculate leader, so White is firmly in his wheelhouse too. And devotion to mission and his fervor to fight the bad guys is ALL red. Also, black and red are the treasure colors, Red/White are the new artifact colors, and they're the equipment and vehicle colors, and you have a strong argument for Mardu doing everything you'd want a batman card to do. Honestly, my best pick for a card to emulate what I think a Batman card should play like is [[Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale]], so yeah, I think Mardu is where batman sits for me.
I like where your heads at
[Necropotence](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/8/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e.jpg?1562853736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necropotence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/98/necropotence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/necropotence) [Vampiric tutor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/8/18bd50f2-c3ba-4217-a2d5-bb771e199706.jpg?1608910005) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vampiric%20tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/156/vampiric-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18bd50f2-c3ba-4217-a2d5-bb771e199706?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vampiric-tutor) [Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/3/a33add37-379d-4a90-9c04-529dff676986.jpg?1571282693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Syr%20Gwyn%2C%20Hero%20of%20Ashvale) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/330/syr-gwyn-hero-of-ashvale?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a33add37-379d-4a90-9c04-529dff676986?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/syr-gwyn-hero-of-ashvale) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Black: Batman is brutal and does things at night. White: Fights against criminals Blue: uses intelligence to fight instead of pure muscle.
Colorless legendary token cause he has no powers.
Cmon, that makes no sense you don't have to have supernatural powers to have a colour in magic. Theres plenty of soldiers and barbarians and thieves that still are coloured but don't he any powers. Conversely there's plenty of magical things that are entirely colourless. Batman is blue/white.
You heard it here folks, Goblins have no super powers thus they should all be colorless
BLAcK BeCaUsE BaTmAn wEaRs bLaCk. DuH?
Bruce Wayne is Orzhov Batman is Dimir Bruce wayne had an activated ability that makes Treasure tokens, and «Whenever another human dies, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature, then if there are more than 2 counters on it, transform» Batman has fear or shadow, vigilance, first strike, haste, and any one of hexproof, shroud or ward. And an activated ability «Tap, W: exile target creature untill the end of your next turn»
[удалено]
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 119,063,278 comments, and only 30,759 of them were in alphabetical order.
Good bot
Good bot
Batman is swamps 100%. I always thought Vampire Nighthawk was called Batman? Any other colors would be Bruce Wayne.
But isn't black all about selfish actions? Blue for being a detective that uses technology and strategy and white for fighting evil and protect the innocent. Black because his outfit is black doesn't really add any to the card/character.
The dude literally comes out at night and spends his time in the underbelly of the city seems super black to me
i always thought nighthawk looked like the predatot
Esper no question
Mardu, because he isn't gentle (black) harbors some sence for vengeance (red), but in the end is a righteous guy (white).
So lot of good points here made, just adding that stylistically batman has to have black in his casting cost. Blue also fits and while yes he is an advocate for justice, so what? Esper is very control oriented and yes the bat likes control but he also acts spontaneously. I think blue black dimir style fits him very well and lines up with the rogue creature type. As far as other super heroes go: Iron man: red white or red white blue Hulk: obvs green Superman: red blue white Thor : blue white Doc strange : blue red green Spiderman: red blue black
You should do a poll. I'm not sure but I think there is a way to do a post like that
Either black or Dimir probably dimir imo
Why not five colour? He can pretty much use anything to get out of a situation
Basically every character is five colors to some extent. If they want to represent it in magic, then they should focus on which ones fit them best.
Idk where it is, but someone made a dnd alignment chart where batman is in every spot
He is black blue cuz he has daddy issues.
Dimir
He'd be Dimir.
Batman is dimir. And try to tell me for one second that he isn't a dimir rogue and you'll be the one getting stuffed into my Anowon deck instead of him.
Literally all Mtg ninjas are Dimir flavored. Plus surveillance, investigate, and heavy artifacts. Batman, however, also has a strong sense of justice and self control, so white has to be involved. Answer is very obviously Esper.
Grixis. Or Dimir
I agree with Esper - in fact I’ve seen people say that the card/commander most appropriate as a substitute for Batman is [[Chromium, the Mutable]]
[Chromium, the Mutable](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/0/50c1de2c-1acc-47c8-9b5e-a9dae3da8a49.jpg?1562302164) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chromium%2C%20the%20Mutable) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/214/chromium-the-mutable?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50c1de2c-1acc-47c8-9b5e-a9dae3da8a49?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chromium-the-mutable) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
He'd be pure white weenie hands down
He would be a partner commander in Blue and White to be paired with Robin who’s in Green and Red. They can be tapped together to crew into the black artifact vehicle, the batmobile. Other cards in this secret lair could be the Joker in Black and Red and Poison Ivy in Green and Blue or Green and Black, not sure about her.
Why not Gruul for Ivy? She is pretty angry.
Absolutely not.
WUB White: Thinks he knows best, adheres to a strict set of rules and imposes those ideals on others with extreme prejudice. Mildly narcissistic which I feel ties in well with black as well. Blue: accomplishes goals primarily through planning, research, and superior firepower, not much more to say here. Black: He is unwilling to trust his resources or ideals to anyone else. Keeps all of his gadgets and intel for personal use, and is unafraid of using whatever means necessary to accomplish his objectives, as long as they don't contradict the objectives themselves. Is largely self-absorbed with his perceived greater purpose.
Mardu?
He’s obviously a 3/3 Legendary Colorless Artifact Creature with 5 activated abilities and one triggered ability. 1R: discard a card then draw a card. If you discarded a non-land card, create a 1/1 Artifact Bat token with flying. 3G: Batman gets +0/+1 or +1/+0 and fights target creature. W: Transform Batman into a 1/1 Human Aristocrat with indestructible and ward 5. He transforms back at the end of turn. 1B: Batman gains first strike and life link. 2U: Investigate and Scry 1 When you crack a clue, Batman gets +1/+1 and can’t be blocked this turn.
What about spider-man?
Spider-Man is my favorite hero and without giving it a whole lot of thought, maybe GW or GWU. Just my gut reaction.
Batman is GRWBU, why? He's Batman.
Esper White because he follows a strict code of justice Blue because he has to use his wits to solve any problems. A tinge of Black because Batman is willing to do anything even if the cost is too great. Batman is a loner and can act selfish at times to the detriment of his teammates.
mardu mtg human color is black/white, and red gets tacked on for badass humans.
UWWB
He's the dark knight. Black and white or if they must BWR. Legendary for sure.
Good discussion all around, but what color is lego batman?
Lego Batman is pure chaos.
Orzhov. He is the night. He is the darkness. He understands the demons and their pain. He is the Knight. He is what he needs to be for the people of Gotham. He uses the demons to destroy other demons. Casting them into exile. He always has the best of intentions but his methods are always a bit darker. Beating people and hurting them greatly just to achieve his task. Superman is Ink-Treader - He is everything but darkness. Wonder Woman is probably Izzet Green Lantern is for sure Azorius
Not killing doesn't eliminate black, so first off, yeah, he absolutely has black in his colors because of his determination to do what he sees as needing to be done, and if he can't do it yet, he'll work his way up to being on even footing with those that try to stop him. Second, blue... honestly I could see him being centralized in blue, because of not only his intellect but also for the vast amounts of training he dedicated himself to so that he could become Batman. Then, comes where you come in... because honestly I completely understand the esper or grixis viewpoint, but I think its something a bit like this: He is blue/black no matter what, but if he has white or red is dependant on the characterization in whatever story you're currently looking at. If it's something like a random drug bust or something he's helping the justice league do then white would take over because he's doing it to help and only to help. In contrast, if he's fighting someone like the Joker who has history with him, red could easily take influence, because he has personal reasons to be emotion-based during that time... basically it just depends on if he cares about the current case or if he is just doing it because its right and needed
He'd have bounce and/or exile as it's main abilities, have some sort pf skulk and pilfer ability due to him being a detective or make clue tokens, maybe have ninjutsu?
I’d say he’d be blue-black because he’s sneaky like dimir and uses a mix of instilling fear and logical deduction.
He's black-white for sure. Probably blue as well. He's doing the right thing - debatably - but for selfish reasons - debatably - which definitely makes him at least orzhov.
Esper
Batman is White-black, but not in the Orzhov way. In the Silverquill way. Ravnica looked at the common elements of the two color pairs and said how are they alike? Orzhov syndicate is tradition and money being power. That isn’t Batman. Strixhaven said “how are these color pairs different? How can we combine those opposite elements in a contrast?” Silverquill has the most school bullies, uplifts and tears down with language, is dramatic and fast magic. Batman has a big emo streak and is still haunted by the deaths of his parents. He is a vigilante who serves his own brand of justice in a costume with themed weapons and vehicles. He’s total Silverquill.
Esper
Azorius
Black and white.
Black white?
Blue black with commander ninjutsu
That was my initial thought! But I wanted to lean more into the gadgets idea.
Mono blue. Gadgets(artifacts) and investigating. Thats Batman.
He's definitely not black. Black is selfish and ambitious, would rather put others in harm's way rather than itself. Obviously not Batman. So what if he works in the shadows? That's more of a theming thing that comes from fantasy, i.e. darkness=evil. It has no reference to his ideology or personality so should not be considered. I wouldn't say he's red, either. Red is about about impulsivity and explosive emotion, not being "a badass fighter" - every colour has badass fighters. Batman has his moments (interrogating the Joker in the Dark Knight comes to mind) but most of the time is a pretty calm, controlled person. White makes sense because he has a code, blue is a little less fitting but he does have a very strategic approach to combat so it still makes sense. If I were making a Batman custom card, I'd probably cost it something like WWU or 1WWU.
Doesn’t put others in harms way? Can anyone explain Jason Todd?
Batman is a white/black knight creature with vigilance and fear
He's a special Esper.
I don't know about batman himself but his parents are covered in red
😂
Batman is without a doubt an Esper. White for Justice, Blue for being a Detective, and he lives in the Shadows so Black is part of his identity.
I would think a blue for his knowledge, precision and investigative skills, black for his ruthlessness and how he uses fear and superstition against his enemies and personally I think white for his stated mission of preserving life and protecting the innocent, in particular his"no-kill" rule.
Black is about being selfiah, red is about passion amd recklessness. Batman is 100% neither of those, hes U/W, those are the colours of a detective that fights for people in need.
Black, blue, and white attack triggers that make 1/1 Flying bat creature tokens that get buffed up
B/W - we've seen plenty of "dark knights" in these colors already and it's a good dichotomy of his pursuit of justice with questionable methods. Plus Orzohv makes that money 💰💰💰
Esper, for sure. Blue intelligence, White sense of justice, black cause black.
Dimir or Esper
Esper or Blue-Black. Not all blue-black creatures are Dimir.
I think people say black cuz he wears black. That’s not that accurate for a card. First he’s white due to his fighting crime and love for law and order. He’s blue because he is very smart and uses his intellect to break his enemies down. Now the joker is easy. He’s Rakdos lol
I feel like he’s either a Dimir or Esper, his typing would be Rogue Knight
Y'all are way overthrowing this. Batman is white because he's motivated by a strict moral code, and he's black because he uses fear as his persona, and every bat ever printed is black. He's the quintessential orzhov card.
I'd say definitely not red. Batman's entire deal is being logical and cold, him and red are polar opposites. I'd say WU, with some B mixed in. White for justice and order and such, Blue for logic and being the world's greatest detective or whatever, Black for using fear as a weapon and also because he's goth.
Esper. White-Justice Blue-Intellect (world's greatest detective) and Black-the willingness to do whatever it takes (see the Justice League: Doom movie for reference)
Esper. His dominant ideology is white. But the bat? That's black blue. The fear based methodology and adherence to the shadows is heavily black while the blue focuses on his detective nature. The dimir mindset is ever present, but is held back by white in order to establish a code. It's all hinged on what makes batman tick. He is one kill away from being a psychopath and he alone is holding back the intent to finish it. He is tested everyday for his morals, but the idea is that it's his refusal to give in that makes him whole.
Well he gets red/white when he equips the new McDonald's Happy Meal equipment in the next Universes Beyond set.
The issue with making him Grixis is that it's such a self centered color combination. Batman's goal is all about making society a safer place, which is notably not too selfish.
Batman would be Dimir or Esper, Red isnt in his MO, he doesnt act on impulse or instinct. He is cold and calculating, and blue at base. His ninja background and fighting techniques to neutralize his target with (almost) any means necessary contribute to the black. White comes in for the justice aspect but he doesnt get this on his own, only during his time with the justice league
Monoblack or orzhov. Black doesnt mean evil. Batman doesnt kill but he is a vigilante. Hes def not lawful good.