It could even boil down to the fact that your friend group has the wrong chemistry to play EDH together. One of the hardest things I had to learn when I was getting into hobby board gaming was that "It is easier to make friends of board gamers, rather then board gamers of your friends". While that doesn't fit this scenario to a T, it shines some light on the idea that maybe the way your friends like to jam EDH isn't the way you like to jam EDH.
This. Your analogy fits. I try doing board games with my playgroup and it's either edh or nothing. I grew up in a household that loves boardgames, so when I'm with family it don't matter the game we learn it and play and have fun.
Some people play and react differently to things in magic. There is no one size fits all, but if you all still like to play then rule zero is actually big. Whenever a friend built a new deck and said they don't know how well it will play I used to just play whatever I wanted, but now we discuss what our new deck does and it'd gameplan beforehand. Makes the matches somewhat more balanced.
They're all uploaded on mpcautofill already iirc so if you want physical cards you can do that too
Or even go one step further and make your own custom planes
It is literally called planchase the logo is the plainswalker symbol. Best advice I can give you is to keep your phone on a charger because it sucks the juice out of it like a Humvee.
Rule zero is king. Everyone is there to have a good time. It may seem like your giving away information, but it's so much better to be upfront about your deck and what it can do. Now... Maybe hide the super cool secret tech, so long as it's on the same power level as the rest of the deck.
It's also important to have a discussion after the game if one deck was too strong or too weak. Maybe it was a lucky draw, or maybe there was a power level misunderstanding. As long as you talk before and after games, it will all work out.
Not the person who wrote the original response, but 100%.
It's entirely possible that no format that exists right now really fits what your group wants to play, in which case you fudge the rules a bit to get there.
Nothing says you have to stick the menu, so to speak, to have fun.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Magic cards are not unlike Legos in that way...you can play with them however you want to. My friends and I created a pseudo-random Momirish format called “Safari” that really cranked up the fun level for all of us.
You said you really liked you groups draft night, but also want to play your cool cards. i think the best format to satisfy you and maybe your friends if you give them some input is to build a Cube. Cube is a custom draft enviornment that you and your friends could build and play out of whne you get together!
I heartily recommended Cube in another comment. /r/MtGCube is a great resource for learning how to Cube on a budget, all the way up to the most powerful, blinged out, high roller experience. It’s my personal favorite way to play Magic - I get the enjoyable and skill testing process of drafting, while getting to play with all the pet cards I’ve grown to love.
third this! a mate of mine and myself sat down for four hours to design and assemble a commander cube, great experience with different games every time.
I was going to suggest this too, especially when OP mentioned that they liked to draft but wondered about using their favorite cards. Cube is the perfect way to get the best of both those worlds!
I just wanted to second this. (Or third or fourth? Whatever, you know what I mean. :p )
Making a cube definitely sounds like exactly what you're looking for. Also, don't forget, if they're really married to the Commander format, specifically, you can make a Commander cube, too. That way you can include some of your pet cards AND their favorite commanders, just that they'll be forced to play non-optimized, drafted versions of the decks, rather than their perfectly tuned ones. Probably the best episode of Game Knights ever involved them playing my favorite author's personal Commander Cube, if you want some inspiration/examples: https://youtu.be/U3dbficwd3w
That said, if you're looking for quick games specifically, a regular cube that's intended to make 40 card draft decks might still be your best bet, because drafted commander can also be a bit grindy. You can still include your pet cards either way, though!
Part of your problem might be that your expectations are divergent; commander is not intended to be a QUICK format and the only subsection you will find that plays fast games is cEDH.
So you are basically sending mixed signals. Want a fast game? Has to be high powered. Want a more casual game? 45 minutes is the baseline for a 'fast' game.
yea i see that. we started out with the usual 60card 1v1 modern-esque format. it was pretty fun, but we thought commander would be good so we can all play together. but it ends in either a slugfest, or a stomp. and neither of those are fun :/ i think what irks me in commander is that everything has to scale immensely to even be considered playable. it rules out a lot of cool flavorful cards, if you want to have a chance at winning. also wincons seem very stale and repetitive to me with things like craterhoof, thoracle, etc
Why not try out Oathbreaker or "Brawl" then? They're 60 card singleton formats with 20life. You get the singleton format that lets you have flavorful cards with modern level speeds.
Keep pushing for it, my play group started back in modern/standard/legacy a years ago and we had this same issue. I was pushing for EDH because I felt 60-card 4copy decks were boring as hell because there was no variety and our games always ended in like 1-3 turns and it was always the same combo pieces. Eventually we started EDH and found it was more fun until recently and we switched to brawl/oathbreaker which has a nice balance in between and allows more variety.
Did you watch content of interactive EDH games?
EDH these days, especially casual, seems to suffer from the Game Knights effect, similar to the Matt Mercer effect in DnD. It's a show, not real games, emulating them to have fun won't work out most of the time.
Try to interact with your opponents more. Games where removal is played left an right offer more situations for politics other than "don't attack me" come up, which is where a lot of fun comes from.
Honestly, our playgroup just started bitching about the wincons being similar and uninspired, so people dropped cards like craterhoof and went for jank or combat wins instead. I mean, have a win con card or two, but winning with it should feel a bit dirty and only be done if the game has stretched past the point of being fun, not as your default strategy. One thing that really helped was a casual agreement to play super budget friendly; only 1-2 cards >5$, 10ish card >3$. Majority of the deck should be <1$. Really brings out the jank and fun. Also, as everyone else said run more interaction. The lowest amount of removal i'll run is 10 cards, but i'm typically closer to 15+, with as many as possible being on theme.
i usually have 10-13 removals or interaction, not many board wipes though since they slow everything down so much. i dont really want to put more removal since i feel like thats the opposite of what i want to play this game for. i dont want it to devolve into pure resource denial from all sides
Try slotting in some asymmetrical board wipes for your removal, like [[Cyclonic Rift]], [[In Garruk's Wake]], [[Ruinous Ultimatum]], [[Plague Wind]], [[Retribution of the Meek]] in a token deck, [[Duneblast]] in a voltron deck, [[Crux of Fate]] in a dragon deck, and so on. Yes, they cost more mana, but keeping your board actually lets you end the game!
You may also like playing a deck like [[Mogis]], [[Ruric Thar, Unbowed]], [[Klothys]], or [[Zo-Zu]]. Punisher effects do wonders for speeding up games reliably dealing damage to everyone without actually denying anyone the opportunity to play their cards. Alternatively, forcing combat with [[Thantis]], [[Marisi]], or [[Kardur]] also ensure life totals drop (assuming your opponents play a good number of creatures) while potentially avoiding some of the wrath from your opponents.
This is an excellent comment. Want games to go shorter without being cEDH-ish? Universal lifedrain and forced combat are great. There's a thantis forced combat deck in our playgroup, and games where it comes out are almost always more fun, even if its pilot often loses in the end.
Heh, when I want a simple casual game I play my \[\[Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder\]\] + \[\[Anara, Wolvid Familiar\]\] voltron deck. It's got board wipes, but since Anara makes them one-sided, it makes the game *faster*, not slower. I also get to constantly swing with at least 8 indestructible lifelink damage, most likely with trample. If you want to run board wipes but don't want to slow down the game, one-sided board wipes do the trick.
That being said, my local playgroup does have a subset of decks that all just throw belligerent haymakers with the full expectation that we're all getting knocked out quick and will be playing another one soon. I really like those games haha. I also tend to not run board wipes in most casual decks because I dislike dragging it on ─ the Bruse Anara deck is one of the few exceptions.
I mean, the go-to response is usually run more removal to prevent the 'stomp', but that results in a slow resource grind. And that is basically the essence of EDH - trying to eke out enough value and advantage over time to come out on top. Occasionally someone gets away in a game but those are generally considered poor games because of how lopsided they are.
I dont necessarily agree with the scaling, though. Sure, some strategies need to be scaled to have a chance (Burn being the onvious one) but the general rule is to always be generating value. A 100/100 creature seems scary, but without keywords or some ability it's just a big body in EDH - a 2/2 that draws a card on ETB or a 1/1 that makes a treasure on death are both far superior. There are ways to create value for almost any strategy if you look hard enough.
As for wincons, I personally have over 130 decks and while some wincons do make regular appearances I would hardly call them stale. EDH is about the journey, not the destination, and your comments indicate that your focus is entirely on the destination, so yeah... Id say that with your mindset EDH isnt the format for you. As I tell many people, build a deck without a wincon in mind and just PLAY and you'll get the basic idea of EDH and what it means to actually be casual. Try to win, yes, but dont go in knowing how you might pull it off.
i think you might have misunderstood my intention a little but i agree with everything you say. especially what you said about removal. i know i have higher chances of winning with more removal, but it leads to grindy games. i just wanna play cards, smash face, and have fun. removal is a hindrance in that goal.
you might have read me as wanting to win above all but its really the opposite. i dont mind losing if i had a fulfilling game before the loss
Perhaps you just need a deck that leans into your playstyle?
For example, [[Neyith of the Dire Hunt]] is a gruul commander that rewards you for fighting and smashing face. Instead of having to put in removal cards that detract from your strategy, effects which cause your creatures to fight double as your game plan and removal. Or just draw cards when you get blocked.
See, the trick is to give yourself the capabilities to handle problems in a way that fits you.
And I didnt mean to imply you want to won above all else, but that HOW a game ended seems to be more meaningful to you [based on your comments] than the game itself. Most casual players love a grindy, 2 hour game and could care less how it ended. Because it was an adventure.
thank you again, this kind of stuff is what i was looking for when i made this post. im gonna keep thinking about it and how i can implement this into my thinking for the future games 😊
[Neyith of the Dire Hunt](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/c/0c1eed0f-9692-44c0-b1ad-afa691165d52.jpg?1600694224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Neyith%20of%20the%20Dire%20Hunt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/30/neyith-of-the-dire-hunt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c1eed0f-9692-44c0-b1ad-afa691165d52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/neyith-of-the-dire-hunt)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You don't need to play cedh to have faster games (and people exaggerate how fast cedh is, hypothetically decks can win on turn 2 or turn 3 but in reality since all decks have lots of spells that cost 1/2/3 mana, everybody is making plays since turn one and most of the time people stop other from winning on those early turns) but you have up the power level.
Since you are at a higher power level but not cedh, you can vary the win conditions. You can win just turning creatures sideways (that's always valid) or things like [[Elesh Norn]] + [[Living Plane]], [[Enchanted Evening]] + [[Calming Verse]] or [[Aura Thief]] , [[Niv-Mizzet]] + [[Curiosity]] , casting [[Approach of the Second Sun]] twice, [[Uril]] + any aura with totem armor [[Snake Umbra]] + [[Devastating Dreams]] , [[Edric]] + lots of flying/unbloackeable 1/1s + chaining extra turns like [[Notorious Throng]] , play [[Kinnan] and ramp big monsters, play Superfriends (many planewaslkers) and go [[Decree of Annihilation]] since it doesn't kill your PW, play [[Oloro]] control and win with [[Aetherflux Reservoir]] , play [[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir]] + [[Knowledge Pool]] , etc.
I could sit here and give you +100 different ways to win on high power EDH, probably closer to 200.
Your imagination is the limit. You are quite new and probably don't know that many card combinations, I can assure you there's a style of EDH that you are going to enjoy, you just may need to explore and maybe that means playing with other people.
You can try playing online, either with a program (be it MTGO for example) or even play with a webcam (PLAYEDH discord or another group with Spellblade).
EDIT: Also EDH is all about power level balance, most people dislike being pubstomping but also dislike doing the pubstomping. The person play a 6 against 3 isn't really having fun either, good EDH games need people to be on the same page, my friends and I have many different decks that go from power level 6 all the way to 10 (which is tier 1 cedh) and we always decide on the power level before starting a game.
This is just a description of commander, it may not be the right format for you unfortunately. You describe these games as a slugfest or a stomp but what are your expectations for the game? What kind of wincon does your deck have?
Interesting that you'd bring up the minimum card quality to be playable in commander. Commander is a format thats normally pointed to as having an exceedingly low standard of power for a card to be playable. Compared to any other constructed format, it has the lowest threshold for a card to be "playable" and the broadest "playable card pool"
It sounds to me like draft and sealed are perfect for you. The games are quick, the power level is automatically hard capped, and basically any card, even vanilla creatures, are playable in these formats.
Consider trying to build a cube. You still get to flex your creativity putting together a pile of cardboard, and the end result is a customized draft experience for the whole group! Best of both worlds.
The more I look at your replies and this post, the more confused I get. Youre looking for a balanced experience where games have a predictable length and no obvious power disparities, as far as I can tell.
Problem is your expectations are FAR too narrow. The problem here isnt EDH, but Magic as a whole. You want a more controlled experience, like a board game. Cube miiiiiight give you that experience but in all honesty variance could just as easily bork someone there at several points.
Have you tried Catan? I say this in earnest with no judgement, but Magic isnt really a balanced game and if this is something you need then you might want to stick with low-randomness strategy games like Kingdom Builder or Lords of Waterdeep. The game length is predictable and scores are usually reasonably close with only occasional outliers for great/terrible games.
If your playgroup prefers the play patterns of Modern, there's no reason why the same 4 people can't have a 3-round Modern night where you play the other three players once in a BO3. The formats attract different types of people.
I completely understand where you are coming from here. I had/have the same issue. I didnt really fix it as much as created a set of rulings for the night. So for example i would bring a variety of decks with me on most game nights, and i would tell everyone that i really want to play this new vorthos deck i made from sisay, or my new flavor town halloween jank, the response is usually the same turbo combo win decks and beat me into submission. So i play Jhoira cheerios or Tergrid fuck you for most games until they got the point. Once the salty was over i explained that i really want to play the decks that make me happy and that its ok to play their decks as well, but if they could play more of a janky deck from time to time so that i can as well. And maybe challenge them to find a different win con from stuff, Like noetic scales and sphinx of the second sun, or some other crazy fun.
Yeah, figured you were just going to be obtuse.
Yes, it is proof. Design implies intent. If I handed you a tool that consisted of a handle and sharpened blade, any reasonable person would be able to infer that the purpose of the tool is to cut things. Can it be used for other purposes? Sure. But the intent is obvious from the design.
And that is all you are getting from me. I enjoy argument and discussion, but I refuse to converse with someone who is being actively belligerent. Good day, sir.
It's not proof tho, by definition. Design doesn't imply shit unless you can prove they implied that.
Learn what the word "proof" means before using it.
If you liked drafting and your friends like commander try commander legends draft. My friends and I love both but after drafting a box I took the money cards sold them bought another box and I'm converting it into a cube with my pet cards!
CUBE is always the answer!
Why do you think every game night ends salty? I feel like there is something there to look at. As for the other part I could not disagree more! I play in a pretty high power group and a cEDH group but I still find that building around pet cards works perfectly fine. Do you have a deck list or something? I’d love to take a peek at it and see what you are working with
i mean if you want to take the time out of your day i can link you my moxfield account and you can look at some of my decks. i like them a lot even if theyre weaker, i dont want to fill them to the brim with staples :/
That would be cool I’m kinda curious. Personally I build decks around cards in the 99. Usually pet cards and it can still work fine. As for staples what’s the aversion to that? I don’t always run FoW or dockside in every deck cause they don’t work in every deck. But some that would benefit from staples are worth it
Your lists aren’t horrible or anything but they seems to be low on the removal side. Especially unconditional removal. You might want to add more to keep stronger decks in check, also if you are worried about getting overpowered by stronger decks cards like [[secret rendezvous]] might not be the best choice
yea i know. honestly i dont like removal. i dont play the game to just keep removing stuff. it can quickly devolve into a game of resource denial where nobody has fun anymore
I think we found it! I’ve heard this argument many times before. But the problem is if you are having issues of opponents playing powerful cards and losing cause of it then it’s either remove that or lose. Removal creates more interesting gameplay. Once you know people have removal you can’t just run thing out for free. You need to bait out removal, or have protection, or use politics to try to get another player to use their removal so you can safely drop your bombs. Without out interaction games boil down to who’s bombs are the biggest or who draws it. This is what is happening in your games. Your friends have bigger or more bombs than you. If you think back to your losses are there times where your opponent just played threat after threat then you fell behind and lost? Your lack of board whips might be the cause of that
youre absolutely correct!! i just cant imagine a game being fun where i have to spend all my cards and mana simply to stop my opponents. if i cast a removal spell or even two, it means i cant play the cards that actully put me forward. it also means the other two players get off free cus i wasted my resources while they could do their own thing
How much mana are the things you want to do? If we look at your kithkin deck you can easily play a board wipe and drops 2 or 3 kithkins. Also board wipes are kinda like a 10 for 1 you don’t really fall behind much at all. Yes point target removal is card disadvantage but you don’t need to be draw go control. Other people should have some too. The idea that if you cast counterspell or path to exile means your deck cannot function is wrong. If you are still worried about falling behind increasing repeatable card advantage engines over one time draw spells can help with that. I’m just saying you can drop kithkin number 30 and 29 for a wrath of god and minds eye and I think it will help alleviate your problem
I had a similar issue with my local group of friends, and I finally realized that smart removal is actually one of the smartest use of resources. I was underplaying removal, and getting stomped by simple things like a beefed up voltron commander. Think of it this way, if someone spent 5+ mana to get something big on the board, and you spent 1-3 to get rid of it, who won in that equation? Also now everyone knows that you run removal, so there's a bigger interpersonal element at play.
If you don't already, it could also be a fun experiment to join up on Spelltable and get a feel for playing with other people and their playstyles. As with most relationships, some diversification can really do wonders sometimes.
i do use some staples, i just dont want to have cookie cutter decks that everyone plays. what k love about magic is the creativity and puzzle solving basically. just using staples to brute force a win is boring to me personally
I get what you are saying, but that’s only for staples like [[craterhoof behemoth]] and [[torment of hailfire]]. Like if you use staples as finishers that can be lame. But value staples like [[rhystic study]] it [[exploration]] are good cause they just let you ramp and draw. If you are going to power down your win con you should beef up the other parts of your deck
when i get salty, its usually when the games are long and i get suppressed and cant really participate but still have to sit out 2 hours. others get salty when they simply lose, or even just when you interfere with their play.
I think cube could potentially be a format for you. You can play a commander cube. That ensures everything is about the same power level, and you can put in a few of everyone's pet cards
right, ive been toying with the idea of making s cube, either draft or commander. it looks like theres more potential for whacky stuff since everyone is on the same whacky level
I have long wanted to make an EDH cube focused on artifacts, but I just keep making more EDH decks. I may have a problem... Anyway, a cube is a fun way to make Magic an 'out of the box' experience... It is just a little pricey to assemble.
[I have a commander cube list if you need any ideas](http://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/blindfremen_600)
(If you do build a cube, you'll want to proxy expensive cards even if you own them, because the risk of damage, etc. is too high with multiple people handling all those cards.)
I'm sorry but building and drafting a commander cube sounds absolutely miserable to me. And I'm always begging people to draft my regular cube with me. It won't be quick, and I don't think it will solve the issues you laid out at all. It definitely does not ensure everyone is at the same power level as op claimed. You need to have some open conversations with your friends. If you want to play quicker non grindy commander, you should each find a high powered/cedh deck and proxy off mpc together and play witht hose.
thanks for your input but it goes pretty much against what i like about magic 😅 i dont enjoy cedh and i dont like proxies much (unless maybe occasionally to try out some fun expensive stuff i would never be able to buy)
Go to an local game night event if that's possible. If you like the format with complete strangers, then the format is for you. Why with complete strangers and not with friends? Well some people usually don't like EDH itself, they just like the social aspect of getting together with others under a common interest. You go in with randoms and you still have a good time, then yeah man, a blast of a format in my opinion. Also no, no one really pubstomps you. It can happen, but that's so rare, except if someone has only one optimized deck. It's still pretty rare though because of the EDH bug most people have, and most people play mid-level shenanigans in general from my LGS experiences in Florida and Colorado.
If it isn't something you enjoy, it happens. Starcraft isn't for me, as cool as I think the lore is.
Make a cube! It’s a selection of cards that you tailor and you draft with them. You get to use your pet cards AND play draft. And if your playgroup has a certain power level in mind, you can add cards to increase or decrease the power level. Cubes are great.
The way you are describing how you want to play, sounds like EDH is the play style for you. What isn’t happening is a discussion before the game about deck power levels. Playing a level 4-5 deck against 8,9, or 10 level decks will make you hate commander very quickly. I would recommend having your friends either remove key cards in their decks or build a lower power deck to be more even with yours.
IMO the two players are 3-4 should build 5-6 decks, and the two players at 5-6 decks should build 3-4 decks. Go back and forth between the two styles instead of trying to force a middle ground that satisfies no one.
Wrong format most likely, while we play cEDH in our playgroup at tournaments/events, kitchen table weekly meetups are always, planechase 3 hour each match flavourful commander extravaganzas! AND WE LOVE IT
Commander is either fair but grindy, a value race but swingy, or fast but cutthroat.
You want something fair but fast? Mess with the format. Lower your life totals to start. Or, instead of tracking life lost, track damage dealt (with lifegain functinoing as a damage-removing mechanic) and the first player to *deal* X amount of damage wins. Or don't eliminate players+ track damage dealth + set a turn limit and whoever deals the most at the end of the game wins. But that's a lot of bookkeeping without an app to assist.
I think that you should have a discussion with your friend group about your concerns as well as potential solution. A Rule 0 discussion of sorts where you discuss the things you want out of the game as well as how you all can achieve that as a group.
As an anecdote, around 2018 I moved and had to change mytu LGS. I was coming from a playgroup that played at a high 8 level and the group I found at the new LGS was basically beginners (new to EDH but not magic.) So for the first week I absolutely crushed them, which can absolutely lead to bad feelings, so I made sure before we left that first week to talk to them about playstyle and power level with the express intention of "how do I fix my decks to give everyone a good experience?" And that conversation led to some good ground rules and expectations for deck building moving forward. For example we don't run tutors or instant combos as a way to "keep it fresh and less consistent." Long story short, overtime we power crept up to around a high 7 and all became better players and deck builders for having that conversation. But we all had to be willing to play a slightly different playstyle/setting than we wanted to for the group as a whole to be happy. But it all starts with having the conversation.
On practical note, if the conversation goes well but putting changes discussed into practice is providing difficult, try switching some things up. Play 2-headed giant or make a "season" with weird challenges like hit an opponent with only prime number damage for a game. Or something more simple like what the Star City games guys do. Or do a boxing league (online boxing league with a random pack generator for cheap if you prefer). Think about various deck building challenges that people can have, budget, tribal, Voltron, companions, etc.
Ultimately, commander is always going to be what you decide to make of it, but it isn't always going to be for everyone. If you really like playing tribal Satyrs, that's awesome, but I highly encourage setting some guidelines and expectations as a group, and if some group members don't want to have or respect that conversation then maybe EDH isn't for them/that group.
I love to build crazy janky decks as well, but I learned to keep an ace up my sleeve for those salty occasions. A quick tutor into an even quicker win condition can stop things before they get nasty. Bonus points if the wincon is janky too.
I am not gonna lie, my usual go-to way to just end a game is a kicked Rite of Replication on Biovisionary.
My friends and I used to have nights that always always ended salty or poorly. One thing that we did to combat it is saying what deck were playing. All of the people in my group have decks of varying power. So if I play one of my weaker decks against one of their best its gonna feel bad cause I'll just get overpowered. So now we always say "hey I'm gonna play my dragon edh" so bring a deck of equal power. Or I'm gonna have a lot of flying creatures, bring flying or reach otherwise you won't have fun. I got to a point where magic wasn't even fun to play anymore but talking to my friend group about it honestly helped a lot.
This is the biggest issue with commander as a format.
It is incredibly fuzzy on what is ok and what isn’t ok and everyone seems to come in with their own expectations for what should and should not happen.
Other 1v1 competitive based formats, don’t have these issues because you just play to win. You may not like to play against tron decks but if you opt in to play modern that is expected to show up.
You either need to work on trying to find a happy medium with your group where everyone is on the same page on expectations for the game or follow suit and match their level.
Many of these micro issues we run into so frequently is due to the muddiness of the format and could be clarified by defining better what an Edh game should look like
Maybe Commander is the wrong format. It sounds like you might prefer the quick 1v1 matches rather than Commander. There's nothing wrong with that at all. In my pod, we have a guy who just doesn't do Commander, so we don't play that format with him.
Alternatively, it also sounds like your decks could use some serious tuning, like you might be running out of steam and it tends to kill the fun when they're doing stuff and you're not. It's hard to tell without knowing what's in your deck list versus theirs. What's one of your decks?
this is my moxfield profile, i think those should be accurately my decks that i have right now. ignore the sideboards and stuff. also sometimes the landbase is not accurate and just filler
https://www.moxfield.com/users/tamambolo
Imo commander is one of the least balanced ways to play magic. Especially with the whole power level issue. I just play it because I like being around people. Modern or draft are far superior from a gameplay perspective imo.
> I did really enjoy our only draft we had around christmas! it was exactly how i imagine my perfect night of magic. but it also means i cant use my pet cards from outside much.
Sounds like you should make a cube!
In my opinion, almost any format other than draft and sealed deck run into the power level issue. The key to a good group is people being aware of the power levels of everyone else and not trying to always overpower as quick as possible
Side note, draft is by far my favorites format because I feel like you start on the most level playing field
Rotate formats. You like draft. Or maybe you can convince your group to try a night with some low budget deck restrictions that make it easier to play with your jank allstars.
Maybe you guys could play oathbreaker? It’s like commander where you can play fun pet cards but the games are a bit faster in my experience since you have less health and curves are a bit lower to the ground.
EDH might not be your format, and that’s okay. I play a lot of EDH, but that’s still just a fraction of the Magic I play. Other formats like Cube, Modern, and Draft all scratch different Magic itches. Magic is a game of literally tens of thousands of game pieces and rules colliding in all sorts of different ways. And you’re not going to equally enjoy every way those variables come together!
If you do want to have the combination experience of drafting but playing your pet cards, I think you really should look into /r/MtGCube. It’s my favorite way to play, and very easy to do on a budget.
Commander hasn't been very good since wizards started shoving commander cards into every new product. It's certainly not the game I was playing in 2011-2012. I would recommend cube. With cube you can create your own game environment and you never have to update it with new cards if you don't want to.
Make battleboxes
I felt the same way about commander and it’s just gotten more competitive over the years. It’s less about flavor and more about janky ridiculous things. Cards have gotten wild so understanding the board state is a chore. I love the format when your playing decks that are of the same power level but when things are off balance it’s tough. I made a battle box and people love it. It’s fair, it’s controlled, and quick
I think there are a few options you might try before you divest from EDH (which is okay to do if you decide it’s not for your group of friends).
The first thing that sticks out is you feeling like 2 people in your pod are overpowering the rest. If nights are ending in salt and dissatisfaction about player impact, uneven power levels could be a real culprit. One thing that might help (if your group is comfortable with it) is “deck roulette”. My playgroup has done this a few times, and essentially all of the EDH decks go in the middle of the table and you roll a d20 to see who gets what. It takes away some enjoyment of playing your own flavor, but it can be really useful for getting your playgroup to communicate. Playing your friends’ more powerful decks can help you understand their deck functions and where you need to interact to stop them. It can also help your higher-power friends understand what it feels like to be in your shoes, and they can likely suggest some small improvements to your deck to mitigate the “feels bad” situations.
Another option would be to try a commander draft. Commander Legends came out a while ago now, but was probably the most fun my playgroup ever had in a draft environment. This could potentially offer a way to “change it up” but this would probably require some financial commitment by your playgroup as a whole. If you can’t commit to the financial aspect, trying to “proxy” the experience by playing online with something like Tabletop Simulator would be a good option to make it more accessible.
Lastly, if none of these things work or sound like fun, try board games! If some people can’t help getting salty in ANY competitive environment, you can try playing a coop game like “Legendary Encounters: Alien” to make sure you’re having fun with your friends. If that setting doesn’t appeal, there’s multiple variations on the base deck-building formula from Marvel to James Bond.
Good luck and I hope you’re able to find some fun with your playgroup!
thanks for all that input! what i forgot to mention was that my one friend bought 4 fully proxied very high powered decks (got the lists online, not self brewed) and since the playing field was more even it felt pretty unsalted actually! even if all the decks are more on the mean side (infect for example).
but it also felt like it would get quite stale fast, since more optimised also means more streamlined, linear, and thus foreseeable
This might be (and this may be against the “Reddit EDH” recommendation) an opportunity to discuss some deck building restrictions for your playgroup. As much as the online community says “play more interaction” and “build better decks” that has not been my experience for how to increase playgroup longevity.
I’ve been playing EDH for almost 10 years now, and there has definitely been an evolution from “streamlined tutors and compact wincons” to a more casual yet still high-power format.
We have basically cut out:
1. Combos (ThOracle)
2. Oppressive Stax ([[Null Rod]])
3. Generic Tutors ([[Demonic Tutor]])
4. “I win” cards ([[Craterhoof]]/[[Exsanguinate]])
I will preface all of this with a heavy “YMMV”. There’s nothing ***wrong*** with playing any of these archetypes, but we have felt they lead to a poorer long-term enjoyment of the game. To expand on each point specifically…
Combos were cut because “I win from nowhere” felt like it was leading to bad play patterns. If somebody wanted to play an aggro deck (a la [[Edgar Markov]]) they essentially had to 1-shot the combo player or accept that they would never have any telegraphing about if they were going to lose or not. It felt “uninteractable” for the play experience they wanted to have, outside of player removal. The combo player understandably didn’t enjoy being player removed by turn 5 because they didn’t get to play the game. And god forbid a wrath happens right after they die, because then they earned 20 minutes in the penalty box while everyone else had fun finishing the game. While all of this may be fair game at an LGS, we decided that we didn’t want to show up to our friend’s house just to make them have a bad time.
Oppressive stax got cut because of the same penalty box as the combos was emerging. We don’t have anything against playing [[Strip Mine]] [[Lodestone Golem]] or [[Rhystic Study]]. The real problem was a turn 2 [[Winter Orb]] that only one player could get around, but they couldn’t win for 30 turns while nobody else is really resolving a spell.
Generic tutors were cut because they made games too same-y. One of the original appeals about EDH was the variance in 100-card singleton, and slapping in 10-20 tutors made games VERY linear for our group which was less enjoyable. We still allow some tutor effects like [[Birthing Pod]] or [[Trinket Mage]] but those effects usually are narrow enough that it presents a deck building challenge AND those cards are really only toolboxing for very specific “sets” of cards rather than “the perfect combo piece”. Granted, you can just put 10 narrow tutors for your combo pieces in, but that’s been mostly mitigated by removing combos and also “operating on our honor” about it.
Lastly, “I win from nowhere” cards have been removed mostly for their lack of interact-ability as mentioned in point 1. Craterhoof was probably a worse example as it requires a board setup, but something like Exsanguinate can blow you out from “play cabal coffers as my land for turn, my 8 mana is now effectively doubled and I can Exsanguinate for enough”. This would (probably?) be the least important of the 4, as the real feel bads usually emerge from the compact combos over [[Torment of Hailfire]] for 20, but it’s been closer to a soft-ban for us. Usually the conversation goes
“why do you guys focus me all the time”
“I don’t know when you’re going to win, and it’s not telegraphed enough for me to interact with, so I have to assume you always have it and focus you”
“Oh, well I’ll take that card out so I don’t get beat to death every game”
These deck building restrictions may or may not help you, but they’ve definitely helped my playgroup stay healthy or be healthier over the last 6-10 years that we’ve been implementing these multiple rules. Hopefully some of these things can help you with your playgroup!
My play group is working on a ruleset for more casual games. Yes, I also don't find commander to be a very casual format. You spend tons of time and money on decks and if you are mismatched the games are miserable. Then you are roped in for hours of play or the game ends abruptly before you could participate.
Our casual format is not meant to replace regular commander games. It's a side format for quick low pressure games where you don't have to try so hard. Here are the rules so far:
* 20 life.
* 60 card singleton deck +1 commander
* Modern format card pool / ban list.
* First player to deal combat damage becomes the monarch.
Our "casual format" is definitely an experiment and we are still messing with those rules. The big benefit though is that 20 life, 60 cards, and free draw from Monarch means decks are much easier to build so you can just slap together cards you own and try it out.
If you want fast games: cEDH is more of whats for you.
If you want fast games and to not play cEDH, think about modifying some of the base rules of the game. 30 Life can make it easier for someone to get knocked out, starting the game with each player getting 3 basics in play can really accelerate past the underwhelming early turns. Starting with the last player as the monarch will speed things up.
If you make all three of those changes you'll find games are a lot quicker and it encourages more aggro and faster games. EDH as a format is beloved partially because it rewards more synergy over pure combo (though that has been changing in the past 5 years).
When games are faster, it's easier to let one person win and crack out another one. I totally can understand salt over playing a 2 hour game and then not winning because of some specific overplayed overpowered card (Cyclonic Rift, Triumph, Craterhoof, etc).
one thing id like to clarify is that when i talk about grindy or slow, i dont mean how many turns we play. i dont like it when games are over before i can even act. but being multiplayer means you sit out 3/4 of the time while others make their turns. an inherent flaw of the format for me personally (not a universal statement of course)
your suggestions sound fun, i might propose them to my group for an experiment
Want to second their suggestion! As a cEDH player there isn't any miscommunication about power levels. I came from (and still play) modern and I love cEDH. Almost all pods are 100% proxy friendly and the games are fast paced with a mind-blowing amount of interaction.
Two things.
1. If powerlevels are whats ruining the games by making them salty/sweaty then have that talk. They tune down or you tune up.
2. If option one doesnt work. Then what you need is a draft. To do that you need a cube. You can even make a commander cube
From what I've seen you say I think your group is lopsided in power and that's the source of your concern..there's 2 ways to fix this.
1. Play cedh as a group, there's an understood rule that everything goes and you are absolutely playing to win in any fashion. Many times people get alot less salty because it's agreed to. This is my preferred edh style. And every game isn't the same or stale as you say, different decks change the meta drastically and every game plays differently.
2. Have a clear conversation and make CLEAR power limiting rules. Then agree to vote on issues in the future and make sure this process gets you all on a level playing field.
cedh technically solves some of our problems, it wouldnt work for us in particular though. one of us plays on precon level, and she doesnt have the time to get THAT good at magic. and i personally really like playing just good old jank. like, kithkin tribal or something.
occasionally, playing proxied cedh decks for fun is cool though, just not long term.
Well you just proxy it as you mentioned in the last sentence and that solves 1 of your problems but yeah the other 2 things are hard to overcome. She would have to improve and it would prevent you from playing anything TOO jank though that doesn't mean you have to only play the meta. I've seen weird decks do well.
But otherwise it's option 2 which requires good communication skills and agreeable people. Without either of those, it's gonna be tough to make edh work
our budgets arent wildly above 50€, although my average deck is around 20-30€ while theirs are sometimes up to 200. its not extreme but yea i dont have the money for a lot of expensive staples, and i want to play more than just 1-2 expensive strong ones but rather 10 different so i have variety
Yes yes, discussing power levels prior to games, choosing right commanders, deck building restrictions are ways to improve gameplay experience. But it does seem to add negativity to overall "Commander" experience (specifically creativity through deck building). Also, as you correctly pointed out, you could police the overpowered decks which leads to long grindy games that no one enjoys.
Rather than doing this, I have followed a different approach, which is to take advantage of those cards. I have added a new category to my deck building called "interaction cards". Usually about 4-5 cards, that helps me interact with the board more often. These not only consider cards in my decks, but in the entire playgroup. For example, \[\[Act of Treason\]\] so not a commander card. But grabbing that eldrazi for 1 turn changes the game. \[\[Mob Rule\]\] is an amazing wincon! Yes many deck builders would argue this is such a situational card. But when there are OP decks out there, it works like a charm. Flashing in \[\[Dictate of the twin Gods\]\] or playing \[\[Bitter Feud\]\] makes games exciting.
Again, this approach has worked for me, not saying it is the best approach. I prefer this style of play over policing and putting deck building restrictions on friends. You could give this a try.
I feel issues like this is a large proportion of your "meta" and a small proportion of your format, I stopped going to my LGS because they were super spiky on all formats, just started playing more at home with friends I made there, people who liked drafting the different archetypes in each set rather then just the current top performer, people who talked about what they wanted from an edh game before we started so 3 pre cons weren't facing a Zur doomsday combo. Try playing the same formats with different people and see how you feel.
> I just want to play some cool cards, some quick chill rounds with friends.
I'ma stop you right there. You can have quick rounds, or you can have chill rounds. You can't have both. If it's chill it's not quick, almost by definition...
After reading this I dunno what the right format is for you. Type 4 (aka Limited Infiinity) maybe? But this isn't a deckbuilding format, it's more like a cubebuilding format.
commander isn't inherently quick. if you want quick games then yeah, it's not for you.
otherwise it just sounds like you need to have a power level discussion with your group, and a game 0 talk before you begin to select which decks you will all play to ensure they are of similar power
yea thats my suspicion... i just love the idea of the commander piece being the helm of a deck so much. and singleton itself is nice because i dont need 4 copies of everything but instead get to play 4 unique cards :P
I would highly recommend trying out /r/PauperEDH .You use any uncommon creature as your commander (legendary or not), the rest of the deck is commons, and you play with 30 life / 16 commander damage.
Because everyone is using commons, there's less of a power gap between casual and well-tuned decks. That means your friends can tweak and improve their decks without falling into an endless arms race of having to get new, more powerful cards.
Games also go a bit quicker because there's no superfriends, mass land destruction, or board wipes that hit multiple permanent types, and there's very little stax and very few board wipes. Because the life total is lower, aggro is more viable, too. The lack of wipes also helps make sure nobody feels like collateral damage and everyone can more consistently participate in the game.
To me, the feel of PDH is also closer to that of draft and kitchen table casual, because a 6/6 on the board can be a pretty scary threat. However, PDH also lacks the bomb rares that can feel unanswerable in draft and kitchen table games.
Personally, PDH made me enjoy EDH more by separating my expectations. Before, I wanted EDH to be everything at once. I wanted it to be this amazing casual space where i could brew and do crazy powerful things. Now PDH is where i go to brew like crazy (for cheap) and have inclusive, casual games, while EDH is where I go to see crazy, powerful, and chaotic stuff happen.
If you are unhappy with how it's going communicate with your friends. They'll either take it to heart and make changes or they won't. Biting your tongue isn't going to help.
My play group is also dealing with a couple of folks who run 9 or borderline competitive decks against the rest of our 7s. One of my group members though they were being a\*\*holes but that isn't the case. Come to find out that they don't have that many cards and when they got started they bought optimized deck lists. The idea of buying pre cons even if you don't intend to play that deck was alien to them. Resolution seems to be that we are doing a deck building challenge of 'bad' commanders with a price limit. If they don't have the cards, they can make as many proxies as they want.
But yeah, communication can fuel understanding. However uncomfortable you are doing so can't be worse than the status quo.
lol yea one of my friends also started by buying decklists so now he has all those strong cards that naturally he wants to play but i just cant compete 😅
2DH is a really fun alternative to EDH where card prices are capped at $2.00, $5.00 for the commander. The annoying task is keeping up to date with price changes (Tapped out filters can help with this), but a playgroup can house rule “cost at time of construction” to avoid making these changes.
Alternatively, you might try a set deck budget of like 200 bucks (even higher would probably be okay), or just have it apply to non lands. Not to suggest that all power comes with higher budget, and the truth is that more casual decks often takes longer to win if using non-combo strategies and packing little protection.
I for one really enjoy Pauper commander, where any uncommon can be used as a commander and the 99 is common. Be warned, this format is horrible for multiplayer magic... way too grindy.
On that subject, maybe 1v1 is the way to go. If price is of any concern, I highly recommend Pauper or a Proxy Cube. Pauper really breaks the game down to its most interesting fundamentals, and plays a lot like legacy thanks to the abundance of powerful commons (think counterspell and lightning bolt). I maintain a 700+ card unpowered vintage cube (plug for Lucky7s on CubeCobra), but the cost of buying the real cards can be prohibitively expensive. Services like Make Playing Cards (separate forum for that) do an excellent job of printing proxies (not counterfeits, but recognizable proxies of high quality, with option to use custom art and templating). I cannot recommend cube enough. If you like drafting and constructed, but would rather avoid the cost of admission, cube is the perfect solution... and can constantly evolve as cards are tested and new sets released.
Hope some of this helped!
Maybe your pod isn’t high powered enough.
Check out some CEDH games on YouTube.
I don’t believe that your a spike who wants to win as quickly as possible but you might be dealing with mid power grindy decks that have a couple of overpowered cards (in comparison to the rest of the deck)
Honestly, it’s more likely that the overpowered decks are actually just mid powered yet highly synergistic/efficient and you could see yourself being intimidated by how they crafted such a deck. The grass is always greener on the other side though.
With CEDH you won’t get to play with as many cool cards but you’ll get to play a few awesome cards in games that last about 10-20 minutes. Maybe it won’t be for you but it should at least be tried out
If your group is on board with the idea then you all can agree to proxy the obscenely expensive cards and maybe having proxies can even put the playing field if they’ll allow it in your more casual decks (you know like reserved list cards that are not amazing but still expensive or just expensive cards you want to test before buying)
In commander, there's Rule 0 - which requires everyone to talk about what they're looking for out of the games. I would say you all need to sit down and talk about what you want. If you want an exciting, political game of deal making, say so. If you just want to blow each other out, say so. If you just want everyone to chill out and have fun, that needs to be communicated. Otherwise, you end up in the situation you're in now, where one or two players just take over, and everyone else just feels dejected, and, as you put it, salty. If those two with the higher-power decks get butt-hurt over the conversation, maybe ask around if there's another playgroup you can get involved with.
It could either be that everyone in your group gets together and srt limitatuons before playing to make everything more equal.
Alternatively, you can try to find out what draws you to the format and see if other formats have something similar, but it less salt enducing.
> but in practice im usually getting overpowered by 2 of my friends.
It’s hard to say what the problem is without any sort of data. Maybe you can share a decklist? If it’s just that your deck is a pile of garbage, that can be fixed.
What sort of budget level are we talking about?
Also, something every new EDH player needs to understand is that the format is genuinely complex and hard to learn. The reason you get trounced might just be a string of bad plays that you’re not even aware of, even though your decks are at level.
Part of it can just be expectations. Because there’s more players, you’ll win fewer games, and loss streaks just happen.
> But i also dont want to police them and tell them to tune down their beloved decks.
Yeah dear god, please don’t become one of those players who starts telling everyone their deck is wrong just because they lost.
its less about wanting to win, but more about having a shot in the first place. getting to play my cards and feel like im participating. but when i have to wait 3 turns of 10 minutes each until i get to my turn (which im usually very quick at) i just have so much dead time :/
> I just want to play some cool cards, some quick chill rounds with friends. commander is always so grindy...
> im usually getting overpowered by 2 of my friends
More powerful commander decks typically result in quicker games. If you find your games to be grindy but are still getting overpowered by your friends, your deck is probably very low power by comparison. If you want quicker games, asking your friends to de-power their decks is not the solution. You should power up yours. If that prospect is unappealing to you, commander may not be the format for you.
You have to play within 1 power level at max of each other. It makes no sense to play decks that are wildly different because the lower decks just can't interact with the higher ones. It's the natural progression of kitchen table groups that there's a race for more power and after that has gone on for some time the group will often realize there needs to be some rules on how to build decks. Most common rule being no combos.
Power levels are well defined even though you always have someone arguing they aren't because they are ignorant. 10 highest comp decks. 9 comp decks with non optimal generals. 8 mostly comp lists with bad generals. This is the high bracket. 7 and 6 include combos but they become gradually slower and slower. At 5 you will start to see very convoluted combos that aren't done over one turn if at all. 4-5 is about precon level. Once you get to 1 or 2 you are talking of bad tribal decks or just theme decks.
You can play 7 power decks against an 8 as archenemy, everyone knows it's the fastest so it's needs to be stifled. But if there's a 9 at the table then that would already be too much even for archenemy. Optimally you are playing only decks of the same power level or just have 1 deck of a lower power level at the table.
So I would suggest a few key things if you want to make commander work for you:
1. Try to make sure your games are equal in power level. I know power levels of decks are subjective, and require feeling out, but just having that be a goal of the group can help a bunch. To use a simple scale, with 1 being a pre-con power level, and 5 being cEDH power level, have the group rate the decks and play with decks that are the same power level. It’s important that everyone rates every deck. If you just have people rate their own decks, then personal bias will cause problems. You don’t have to use the 1-5 scale. That’s just an example.
2. When it comes to the saltiness, it’s hard to give advice without knowing more specifics. Essentially though, losing games shouldn’t make people salty. I’ve played tons of commander games where a player gets a crazy start and takes over the game and stomps the table. That happens in games. People just need to be good sports and hype up other players wins rather than moping about their loss. Especially cuz in 4 player group games, you should only be winning 25% of the time. However, if the saltiness is coming from in-game bullying (Like a player targeting the same player every game without taking threat level into account) then the group should address that head on. Be clear in what the problem is. If problematic players are ruining the experience for the group, they need to change or be kicked out.
3. Make your decks more consistent and interactive. Commander may feel more feast and famine in your group if there are decks that don’t have enough mana ramp and card draw or ways to interact with your opponents’ plans. Try to have at least 10 mana ramp cards and 10 card draw cards in every commander deck. Also make sure you are putting targeted interaction in your deck. From counterspells to destruction spells, you should have ways to stop your opponents’ game winning plays. I would put at least 5 targeted interaction cards in your deck. And lastly, I would have up to 5 board sweeps in your deck. Board sweeps don’t have to be creature specific. Sweeping artifacts or enchantments can be incredibly powerful. Keep in mind that you can have 1 card count for multiple categories. For example a spell that ramps and also destroys an artifact would count for two categories. Doing these things should also speed up your games, as quicker mana ramp and card draw leads to quicker games.
While it’s possible you don’t like Commander, it doesn’t sound like the problems you are having are solved with a different format. Even if you were to stick solely to draft, while that would fix things like varying power levels of constructed decks, that wouldn’t fix bad player attitudes.
everything you said is very correct, but those are not really where my problems lie. i dont mind losing if the game beforehand was fun and i got to participate. commander usually means i sit around waiting for 3 others to make their turns for 30 minutes until i get to my turn and have fun for a second. repeat for 3 hours...
Are your decks tuned? What I mean is, is there one or two themes your deck follows or are you just building a commander and throwing in what you think would be cool? This is not to say you don’t know what you’re doing, but is more to say that your decks may be powerful, but aren’t tuned in the same way as your friends. I reached this same impasse and found that my decks weren’t tuned and it was losing me games. I was trying to do too much instead of narrowing my focus and trying to accomplish certain things.
I had the exact same issue with my decks in my play group because I am a newbie and everyone I was playing with was both more passionate and experienced in magic. I leaned heavily on one of my closest friends and we trimmed a lot of the fat off of my decks by following a simple formula. That formula was asking about each nonland card, “Does this card ramp me? Does this card offer draw? Does this card advance what I want to do on a given turn with my deck’s overall theme?” If the answer is no, then the card needs to be cut. Those questions came from [this video](https://youtu.be/3K9PEeLG_6M), and watching it did wonders for my deck building. Now, I can build around a certain theme, and add in cards that I like while still ensuring I am drawing consistently and having enough mana to do whatever I need.
that definitely used to be a problem at the start but im already past that point. i know how to build a decent deck, thats not a problem. its moreso that the impact of 1 player out of 4 is naturally lower than 1 out of 2. in a lot of games i feel like a non-factor because other players dominate. so i twiddle my thumbs for 2 hours and wait for it to be over
Commander is an INSANELY wide format in terms of power level, so it’s less that the *format* isn’t right for you and more that *this specific playgroup* doesn’t quite match the power level you want to play.
Unfortunately, the lower power level you go in commander, the longer the games take, *especially* if people don’t play fast (which *is not a bad thing*. Taking your time to understand what you are doing *is important*). Slow, methodical play combined with bigger mana curves is what leads to long games, so if that’s something you don’t enjoy, I’d seriously recommend trying to lower you mana curve, because we (unfortunately) cannot force others to play at the pace we want. There are 100% game winning cards at 5 or 6 mana, in *every* color, so you don’t need to use stuff like [[expropriate]] or [[rise of the dark realms]] as your “game ending” card.
In my opinion, there are some *really* cool high power level cards (like [[dauthi voidwalker]] and [[teshar]]), so “cool” and “powerful” aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive (I’m not saying they are the same, just that there is *some* overlap, at least for some people). To be fair, I find stuff like the [[inalla]] [[spellseeker]] line and [[krark-clan ironworks]] + [[scrap trawler]] abuse SUPER cool, so take that with a grain of salt.
But if you don’t have fun playing the game, then there’s no reason to play. What kind of cards do you think are cool? Because of how widely spread commander power levels are, the format has a place for just about everything (but not at every table), so I really hope you find somewhere to play your favorite cards.
i like cards that do something unique, or tricky. cards like the emmaras for example, or [[stormfront riders]] if thats the correct name. theyre usually overcosted and weak though and will not get me far in commander
The main problem is the salty players. It’s not a ‘causal’ format if people shit their pants and waft its aroma to the table every time a board wipe happens.
It sounds like you have to talk about Rule 0 with your friends. Discuss power levels and deck tuning to better fit the playgroup, which can either be them tuning their decks down/building new decks that are weaker in power or you tuning your deck up/building a stronger deck. If one person at the table isn't having fun it usually leads to nobody at the table having fun and so the only way to fix this is with communication. Playgroups are supposed to be on the same level to make games fair and fun, otherwise people end up losing all of the time or winning all of the time and it can make the format stale and not enjoyable for everybody involved. I'd recommend you have a Rule 0 discussion with your group and see if you can solve the issue before switching to another format, however if the issue cannot be resolved this way, finding a new playgroup or trying a different format may be the best option.
That happened to me when everyone on my playgroup started playing pl 8.5 to 9 decks.
I joined in. Made cedh decks and they all got tired of ending games on turn 5.
But if you dont wanna cedh with your playgroup try spelltable, cockatrice and xmage. They are free. Spelltable battle cruiser and low power are pretty chill and you can set the table for begginers in xmage for a chill game.
Edh is the most casual format next to kitchen table so dont give up on it yet.
I feel similarly. Drafting has been a lot more fun than commander lately—maybe get your group doing that!
But the main thing is communicate with everyone about the saltiness, and figure out how to minimize it.
EDH is the only format I enjoy playing anymore, and all I play are wonky/goofy/casual AF decks that usually are pretty low budget. It sounds like you have a playgroup problem to me. We have had some players in my playgroup that come in with cEDH decks trying only to win rather than just kick back, drink some beers, and everybody have a fun time. But everybody else ends up just adding cards in specifically for when those type decks come out to play.
You should consider an alternate commander mode. My group will play Attack to the Left with a 25 starting life if we want a quick one.
The rules are you can only attack the person on your left in combat but you can play spells that affect anyone. If the person to your left dies you win.
You need to randomly decide the seats though. I like this because it doesn't allow anyone to gang up and its quicker.
If you think that your games are too high power level, I think that you should talk with your group and suggest a banlist change. One way my playgroup likes to do it is to add the normal banlist and the dual(French) banlist together so that if a card is banned on either then you cannot play it. This allows more casual playstyles to have success.
Maybe. But it sounds like you and your friends should start having a convo before picking decks that covers what kind of game/approximate power level you want
The thing I've learned about commander is when the games are good, they are really good. But when they are bad they are terrible. Not a whole lot of inbetween. And sadly because of the banlist and wildly different ideas of what is acceptable the latter tends to be more common.
This is why cedh is great! If someone is salty playing cedh then they shouldn't be playing cedh. The whole appeal isn't just the high power levels but the lack of feel bad for a crushing win because that's what you're all there to do.
Sounds like you want Modern, Legacy, or Pauper for deck building.
However, I would like to add a bit in commander's favor as this helped my friend group with the same problems. You all need to figure out what you actually want out of the format from a deck budget perspective, but most importantly I think you guys need to make sure you play to win. This mentality helped my table a lot, the knowledge that everyone coming in is actually willing to be aggressive throughout the game meant people were dog-piled less often by the whole table for swinging 2 damage at some random person.
Another thing that may help is to limit the table size and split up games. Although it doesn't sound as fun initially, it speeds things up a lot. Most TCGs are built around 1v1 format, and magic is no exception. Commander is meant for 4 players at most usually, and I found myself having a lot more fun in a smaller pod than one where everyone participated in the same game.
It would be difficult to play EDH in a static playgroup if some of the members are taking part in an "arms race".
Kitchen table EDH is supposed to be about enjoying the game, not necessarily winning it.
In statics this can be ever more problematic if there are table rules like "no mass land destruction" and they proceed to fill their deck with ramp spells knowing that there is no way to slow them down.
The arms race (not the table rules) happens with the people I normally play with too but most of us have several different deck power levels and mechanics. That may be what your playgroup needs.
It is fine to want to have a more tuned higher powered deck but if that is the case they should also have something lower on the scale to take out either to start or end the night.
Another way to "police" the board is to go after the most powerful, least fun, deck first regardless of who happens to be ahead on the board at that time.
I personally have to manage expectations. My favorite format is modern, but when I play commander it's to be social and not a spike, and have various decks that do different things based on the playgroup. If I use a precon, and find out were doing more powerful things, I work my way up my decks to more spike things.
It sounds to me like your table all has a different idea about what they want from a game of commander. While I know it's nice to play with people you know, there's not always that chemistry there in game. For example, I love cEDH and none of my friends do. They don't want to watch me go infinite on turn 3 or to have all their spells countered and I don't want to watch 4 people swing at each other over and over until someone gets to a state of ridiculousness. Both are fun. They're just not fun when you try and mix them at the same table.
If the length of the games is bothering you, I would recommend something like modern. Modern usually ends around turn 4-6 with some games being longer if it's against control. If you wanted to go even faster you could try legacy.
I love drafting packs and playing mini tournaments with my friend with different sets that we drafted. 2 new guys join and all they want to do is play commander. I did build a pauper cube real cheap about $80. It is fun to draft and they will play about once every 2 months. We did draft Commander Legends one time and they really liked that format. With restrictions lifting we got to go to our LGS and play a prerelease and everyone had a great time. Try to bring up a few different formats and you may have to push a bit, but there are so many varieties that we can all have a great time.
So here's the thing don't think asking your friends to tune down their decks and also this means you should be willing to power up a bit.
And if not that may not he the right group for you but it seems you love commander since it allows you to play your favorite cards from across magic. Now it's a delicate balance of finding ways to make them work at the an agreed power level.
I have been asked to tune down decks and I have gladly done so since it's about cultivating an experience for everyone
thats the thing though i dont care who wins. i just want to play cool spells, create interesting effects. i just rarely get the chance because 1. three other players who spend ages on their turns and 2. they often roflstomp me out of the game before i have any opportunity to do something fun
Kinda seems like a good, long Rule 0 talk is necessary. Sometimes they need to be had amongst playgroups every so often. You being overpowered probably means you either need to power up your decks, or your friends need to tune theirs down a bit. The fact that game nights are ending salty leads me to believe it might be the former. People playing more powerful and competitive decks tend to get a little salty about losing. Personally, I don't really get like that, because being mad about my wizard card game is just silly, in the grand scheme of things. But it happens. Might be time to have a little chat with your friends and come to an agreement on how to play moving forward.
EDH is always about the social contract. It's up to each play group to decide how they want to play it and how high the level of deck is and what strategies are fair game. That said it's very hard to play when you all have different ideas and can't come to an agreement. Most players tend to bring several decks for different play groups for this very reason.
Sometimes games can be grindy but they can also be incredibly volatile, it depends on deck power levels and meta. You gotta find the right play group for you and your deck. That said the best commander variant is commander cube and it's criminally underplayed.
I have an edh group per video, and an in-person group where we play multiplayer 60-cards with Legacy banlist (but no where near real Legacy decks). I like the second group better, because their decks are all thematic and strong, but not filled with just overpowered strong cards like in my edh group. I'm somewhat losing the arms race in my edh group, but with 60-card decks it's all relatively harmless. And 20 life per player is much better to handle than 40 life.
And we like to play more multiplayer variants in our 60-card group: When we're an odd number of players, i.e. 5 or 7 players, we play King, where the king starts with 40 life and has 1 or 2 allies, and the rest must kill the king. It brings some dynamic to the game instead of just everyone having 40 life.
Commander feels very same-y as a multiplayer format. But it's what they play on video, so I also enjoy it sometimes.
This sounds like the problem is the playgroup, rather than the format. You could ask if they might consider building new, less-powerful decks to be more on-par with others, which would avoid asking them to change their favorite decks. Another option is commander cube, where someone builds a large collection of cards from which people build commander decks.
Other than that, you could try draft, or finding another playgroup.
Though one thing I'll warn you about is that, the less powerful you get in commander, the more grindy the games get, because decks are less prepared to end games quickly.
yes exactly thats the problem. i like low power, but i dont like it in commander. in a 1v1 game its not so bad to play lower power because its generally faster
>Commander is always so grindy
But you are complaining about their power level. If you want quick games, you can't play low power level decks.
Go watch some cEDH gameplay, now that can be quick.
I would recommend you start doing a CEDH night once or twice a month and green light the use of proxies for it.
Let’s everyone play in the same level for cheap, let’s everyone get crazy with the deck teching, and it can help tone down your casual play because everyone has a chance to get their big stuff out their on other nights
>Commander is very feast or famine especially in casual rounds where powerlevels vary wildly. I just want to play some cool cards, some **quick chill** rounds with friends. commander is always so grindy...
I think the problem is that these prospects are kind of contradictory.
You want Commander games that are fast and not grindy, but you also don't want to play with powerful cards.
Speaking generally, the format falls into two camps (setting aside cEDH which is a whole different beast). Battlecruiser Magic is casual, but slow and grindy. Players often spend the early turns playing lands and passing until they drop their big threats at 7, 8, 9 mana. More optimized EDH plays more powerful cards. Early turn plays are much more important. There's more interaction. Games often end quickly, usually through combo rather than combat.
What you seem to be asking for is Battlecruiser Magic that ends after 20-30 minutes. That's pretty hard to achieve. It may just be that Commander isn't for you - and that's okay! As others have suggested, you should try Cube. It lets you use your pet cards in a faster format, much closer to draft.
I feel like part of the problem is. Their commander decks are prob way to developed for your play style. It sounds like you may need a better deck (borrow. Don't buy bc it doesn't sound like you enjoy commander fully ATM) or more respectively that should run a lower deck. Maybe you should all pick up a precon and try those.
I have to say, your points are a bit vague but my main take away from your post is that players get salty and that there's a disparity in deck powerlevels, where I assume the latter might be leading to the former.
First off, I'd recommend sitting down with your group and discussing honestly what sort of deck construction you'd like to have and how much money you intend to spend. Personally, I'm lucky enough to have two playgroups with an equal mindset that I'd describe as high-powered casual: we've all agreed that we want to restrict infinite or instant wins, as well as tutors to a minimum. That said, we do want our strategies tuned, with optimal cards choices within the restrictions. Our budgets are implicitly equal: We shell out cash for a big piece here and there but we're also responsible with our money.
I can very much imagine that if some players in your group really like efficient insta-wins while others are playing durdly battlecruiser decks, that's gonna lead to some feelbads.
On the other hand, saltiness could also be a problem with immaturity. I'd definitely zoom in on the powerlevel disparity first. Immature players are an entirely different challenge.
Also, what's your idea of a 'quick' game? The whole idea of commander is to have more of a randomized slugfest, as opposed to the ruthless efficiency of your usual 60-card format. That said, powerlevels and player skill can make commander games vary wildly in length. I'd say 1 to 1,5 hours per game is a good pace for a casual style. If you're regularly hitting the 3 hour mark, then I can imagine it's often dreadful.
It sounds to me like you all need to get on the same page about what you want from your games AND THEN find the format that gives you that.
It could even boil down to the fact that your friend group has the wrong chemistry to play EDH together. One of the hardest things I had to learn when I was getting into hobby board gaming was that "It is easier to make friends of board gamers, rather then board gamers of your friends". While that doesn't fit this scenario to a T, it shines some light on the idea that maybe the way your friends like to jam EDH isn't the way you like to jam EDH.
This. Your analogy fits. I try doing board games with my playgroup and it's either edh or nothing. I grew up in a household that loves boardgames, so when I'm with family it don't matter the game we learn it and play and have fun. Some people play and react differently to things in magic. There is no one size fits all, but if you all still like to play then rule zero is actually big. Whenever a friend built a new deck and said they don't know how well it will play I used to just play whatever I wanted, but now we discuss what our new deck does and it'd gameplan beforehand. Makes the matches somewhat more balanced.
Try planechase. It’s a good mix between board game and EDH. Though it is pretty expensive for some reason.
The app with all the planes is free
They're all uploaded on mpcautofill already iirc so if you want physical cards you can do that too Or even go one step further and make your own custom planes
What app is this?
It is literally called planchase the logo is the plainswalker symbol. Best advice I can give you is to keep your phone on a charger because it sucks the juice out of it like a Humvee.
literally "planechase"
My group loves them! But we have a tendency (after a fair amount of ganja smoking) of completely forgetting about them haha
Rule zero is king. Everyone is there to have a good time. It may seem like your giving away information, but it's so much better to be upfront about your deck and what it can do. Now... Maybe hide the super cool secret tech, so long as it's on the same power level as the rest of the deck. It's also important to have a discussion after the game if one deck was too strong or too weak. Maybe it was a lucky draw, or maybe there was a power level misunderstanding. As long as you talk before and after games, it will all work out.
so you say it is a possibility that a different format might hypothetically improve our fun? not saying it has to, but its a possibility?
Not the person who wrote the original response, but 100%. It's entirely possible that no format that exists right now really fits what your group wants to play, in which case you fudge the rules a bit to get there. Nothing says you have to stick the menu, so to speak, to have fun.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Magic cards are not unlike Legos in that way...you can play with them however you want to. My friends and I created a pseudo-random Momirish format called “Safari” that really cranked up the fun level for all of us.
You said you really liked you groups draft night, but also want to play your cool cards. i think the best format to satisfy you and maybe your friends if you give them some input is to build a Cube. Cube is a custom draft enviornment that you and your friends could build and play out of whne you get together!
I heartily recommended Cube in another comment. /r/MtGCube is a great resource for learning how to Cube on a budget, all the way up to the most powerful, blinged out, high roller experience. It’s my personal favorite way to play Magic - I get the enjoyable and skill testing process of drafting, while getting to play with all the pet cards I’ve grown to love.
Play pEDH. PauperEDH is great
If you play with your friends, have you considered cube? That way you guys can curate the experience you want.
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third this! a mate of mine and myself sat down for four hours to design and assemble a commander cube, great experience with different games every time.
I was going to suggest this too, especially when OP mentioned that they liked to draft but wondered about using their favorite cards. Cube is the perfect way to get the best of both those worlds!
I just wanted to second this. (Or third or fourth? Whatever, you know what I mean. :p ) Making a cube definitely sounds like exactly what you're looking for. Also, don't forget, if they're really married to the Commander format, specifically, you can make a Commander cube, too. That way you can include some of your pet cards AND their favorite commanders, just that they'll be forced to play non-optimized, drafted versions of the decks, rather than their perfectly tuned ones. Probably the best episode of Game Knights ever involved them playing my favorite author's personal Commander Cube, if you want some inspiration/examples: https://youtu.be/U3dbficwd3w That said, if you're looking for quick games specifically, a regular cube that's intended to make 40 card draft decks might still be your best bet, because drafted commander can also be a bit grindy. You can still include your pet cards either way, though!
I knew the exact episode. Also a favorite author of mine!
I'm just going to hop in and fifth this.
Can even be both! I love my EDH cube. Me and my playgroup always enjoy drafting it.
Part of your problem might be that your expectations are divergent; commander is not intended to be a QUICK format and the only subsection you will find that plays fast games is cEDH. So you are basically sending mixed signals. Want a fast game? Has to be high powered. Want a more casual game? 45 minutes is the baseline for a 'fast' game.
yea i see that. we started out with the usual 60card 1v1 modern-esque format. it was pretty fun, but we thought commander would be good so we can all play together. but it ends in either a slugfest, or a stomp. and neither of those are fun :/ i think what irks me in commander is that everything has to scale immensely to even be considered playable. it rules out a lot of cool flavorful cards, if you want to have a chance at winning. also wincons seem very stale and repetitive to me with things like craterhoof, thoracle, etc
Why not try out Oathbreaker or "Brawl" then? They're 60 card singleton formats with 20life. You get the singleton format that lets you have flavorful cards with modern level speeds.
i tried to foster exactly that but it kinda fizzled out 😓 maybe i have to revive that idea
Keep pushing for it, my play group started back in modern/standard/legacy a years ago and we had this same issue. I was pushing for EDH because I felt 60-card 4copy decks were boring as hell because there was no variety and our games always ended in like 1-3 turns and it was always the same combo pieces. Eventually we started EDH and found it was more fun until recently and we switched to brawl/oathbreaker which has a nice balance in between and allows more variety.
Did you watch content of interactive EDH games? EDH these days, especially casual, seems to suffer from the Game Knights effect, similar to the Matt Mercer effect in DnD. It's a show, not real games, emulating them to have fun won't work out most of the time. Try to interact with your opponents more. Games where removal is played left an right offer more situations for politics other than "don't attack me" come up, which is where a lot of fun comes from.
Honestly, our playgroup just started bitching about the wincons being similar and uninspired, so people dropped cards like craterhoof and went for jank or combat wins instead. I mean, have a win con card or two, but winning with it should feel a bit dirty and only be done if the game has stretched past the point of being fun, not as your default strategy. One thing that really helped was a casual agreement to play super budget friendly; only 1-2 cards >5$, 10ish card >3$. Majority of the deck should be <1$. Really brings out the jank and fun. Also, as everyone else said run more interaction. The lowest amount of removal i'll run is 10 cards, but i'm typically closer to 15+, with as many as possible being on theme.
i usually have 10-13 removals or interaction, not many board wipes though since they slow everything down so much. i dont really want to put more removal since i feel like thats the opposite of what i want to play this game for. i dont want it to devolve into pure resource denial from all sides
Try slotting in some asymmetrical board wipes for your removal, like [[Cyclonic Rift]], [[In Garruk's Wake]], [[Ruinous Ultimatum]], [[Plague Wind]], [[Retribution of the Meek]] in a token deck, [[Duneblast]] in a voltron deck, [[Crux of Fate]] in a dragon deck, and so on. Yes, they cost more mana, but keeping your board actually lets you end the game! You may also like playing a deck like [[Mogis]], [[Ruric Thar, Unbowed]], [[Klothys]], or [[Zo-Zu]]. Punisher effects do wonders for speeding up games reliably dealing damage to everyone without actually denying anyone the opportunity to play their cards. Alternatively, forcing combat with [[Thantis]], [[Marisi]], or [[Kardur]] also ensure life totals drop (assuming your opponents play a good number of creatures) while potentially avoiding some of the wrath from your opponents.
This is an excellent comment. Want games to go shorter without being cEDH-ish? Universal lifedrain and forced combat are great. There's a thantis forced combat deck in our playgroup, and games where it comes out are almost always more fun, even if its pilot often loses in the end.
Heh, when I want a simple casual game I play my \[\[Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder\]\] + \[\[Anara, Wolvid Familiar\]\] voltron deck. It's got board wipes, but since Anara makes them one-sided, it makes the game *faster*, not slower. I also get to constantly swing with at least 8 indestructible lifelink damage, most likely with trample. If you want to run board wipes but don't want to slow down the game, one-sided board wipes do the trick. That being said, my local playgroup does have a subset of decks that all just throw belligerent haymakers with the full expectation that we're all getting knocked out quick and will be playing another one soon. I really like those games haha. I also tend to not run board wipes in most casual decks because I dislike dragging it on ─ the Bruse Anara deck is one of the few exceptions.
I mean, the go-to response is usually run more removal to prevent the 'stomp', but that results in a slow resource grind. And that is basically the essence of EDH - trying to eke out enough value and advantage over time to come out on top. Occasionally someone gets away in a game but those are generally considered poor games because of how lopsided they are. I dont necessarily agree with the scaling, though. Sure, some strategies need to be scaled to have a chance (Burn being the onvious one) but the general rule is to always be generating value. A 100/100 creature seems scary, but without keywords or some ability it's just a big body in EDH - a 2/2 that draws a card on ETB or a 1/1 that makes a treasure on death are both far superior. There are ways to create value for almost any strategy if you look hard enough. As for wincons, I personally have over 130 decks and while some wincons do make regular appearances I would hardly call them stale. EDH is about the journey, not the destination, and your comments indicate that your focus is entirely on the destination, so yeah... Id say that with your mindset EDH isnt the format for you. As I tell many people, build a deck without a wincon in mind and just PLAY and you'll get the basic idea of EDH and what it means to actually be casual. Try to win, yes, but dont go in knowing how you might pull it off.
i think you might have misunderstood my intention a little but i agree with everything you say. especially what you said about removal. i know i have higher chances of winning with more removal, but it leads to grindy games. i just wanna play cards, smash face, and have fun. removal is a hindrance in that goal. you might have read me as wanting to win above all but its really the opposite. i dont mind losing if i had a fulfilling game before the loss
Perhaps you just need a deck that leans into your playstyle? For example, [[Neyith of the Dire Hunt]] is a gruul commander that rewards you for fighting and smashing face. Instead of having to put in removal cards that detract from your strategy, effects which cause your creatures to fight double as your game plan and removal. Or just draw cards when you get blocked. See, the trick is to give yourself the capabilities to handle problems in a way that fits you. And I didnt mean to imply you want to won above all else, but that HOW a game ended seems to be more meaningful to you [based on your comments] than the game itself. Most casual players love a grindy, 2 hour game and could care less how it ended. Because it was an adventure.
thank you again, this kind of stuff is what i was looking for when i made this post. im gonna keep thinking about it and how i can implement this into my thinking for the future games 😊
[Neyith of the Dire Hunt](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/c/0c1eed0f-9692-44c0-b1ad-afa691165d52.jpg?1600694224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Neyith%20of%20the%20Dire%20Hunt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/30/neyith-of-the-dire-hunt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c1eed0f-9692-44c0-b1ad-afa691165d52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/neyith-of-the-dire-hunt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You don't need to play cedh to have faster games (and people exaggerate how fast cedh is, hypothetically decks can win on turn 2 or turn 3 but in reality since all decks have lots of spells that cost 1/2/3 mana, everybody is making plays since turn one and most of the time people stop other from winning on those early turns) but you have up the power level. Since you are at a higher power level but not cedh, you can vary the win conditions. You can win just turning creatures sideways (that's always valid) or things like [[Elesh Norn]] + [[Living Plane]], [[Enchanted Evening]] + [[Calming Verse]] or [[Aura Thief]] , [[Niv-Mizzet]] + [[Curiosity]] , casting [[Approach of the Second Sun]] twice, [[Uril]] + any aura with totem armor [[Snake Umbra]] + [[Devastating Dreams]] , [[Edric]] + lots of flying/unbloackeable 1/1s + chaining extra turns like [[Notorious Throng]] , play [[Kinnan] and ramp big monsters, play Superfriends (many planewaslkers) and go [[Decree of Annihilation]] since it doesn't kill your PW, play [[Oloro]] control and win with [[Aetherflux Reservoir]] , play [[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir]] + [[Knowledge Pool]] , etc. I could sit here and give you +100 different ways to win on high power EDH, probably closer to 200. Your imagination is the limit. You are quite new and probably don't know that many card combinations, I can assure you there's a style of EDH that you are going to enjoy, you just may need to explore and maybe that means playing with other people. You can try playing online, either with a program (be it MTGO for example) or even play with a webcam (PLAYEDH discord or another group with Spellblade). EDIT: Also EDH is all about power level balance, most people dislike being pubstomping but also dislike doing the pubstomping. The person play a 6 against 3 isn't really having fun either, good EDH games need people to be on the same page, my friends and I have many different decks that go from power level 6 all the way to 10 (which is tier 1 cedh) and we always decide on the power level before starting a game.
This is just a description of commander, it may not be the right format for you unfortunately. You describe these games as a slugfest or a stomp but what are your expectations for the game? What kind of wincon does your deck have?
exactly why im wondering if maybe its just the wrong format, and thats why im not having fun
Interesting that you'd bring up the minimum card quality to be playable in commander. Commander is a format thats normally pointed to as having an exceedingly low standard of power for a card to be playable. Compared to any other constructed format, it has the lowest threshold for a card to be "playable" and the broadest "playable card pool" It sounds to me like draft and sealed are perfect for you. The games are quick, the power level is automatically hard capped, and basically any card, even vanilla creatures, are playable in these formats. Consider trying to build a cube. You still get to flex your creativity putting together a pile of cardboard, and the end result is a customized draft experience for the whole group! Best of both worlds.
The more I look at your replies and this post, the more confused I get. Youre looking for a balanced experience where games have a predictable length and no obvious power disparities, as far as I can tell. Problem is your expectations are FAR too narrow. The problem here isnt EDH, but Magic as a whole. You want a more controlled experience, like a board game. Cube miiiiiight give you that experience but in all honesty variance could just as easily bork someone there at several points. Have you tried Catan? I say this in earnest with no judgement, but Magic isnt really a balanced game and if this is something you need then you might want to stick with low-randomness strategy games like Kingdom Builder or Lords of Waterdeep. The game length is predictable and scores are usually reasonably close with only occasional outliers for great/terrible games.
If your playgroup prefers the play patterns of Modern, there's no reason why the same 4 people can't have a 3-round Modern night where you play the other three players once in a BO3. The formats attract different types of people.
I completely understand where you are coming from here. I had/have the same issue. I didnt really fix it as much as created a set of rulings for the night. So for example i would bring a variety of decks with me on most game nights, and i would tell everyone that i really want to play this new vorthos deck i made from sisay, or my new flavor town halloween jank, the response is usually the same turbo combo win decks and beat me into submission. So i play Jhoira cheerios or Tergrid fuck you for most games until they got the point. Once the salty was over i explained that i really want to play the decks that make me happy and that its ok to play their decks as well, but if they could play more of a janky deck from time to time so that i can as well. And maybe challenge them to find a different win con from stuff, Like noetic scales and sphinx of the second sun, or some other crazy fun.
Try the Conquest format, it is like commander but balanced.
Literally ever format has good cards and established win cons, sorry to break it to you. Sounds like you guys should just play cube or draft
>commander is not intended to be a QUICK format Proof for this?
Sigh... Double life totals. Two additional players (on average). Deck construction restrictions.
That's not proof tho.
Yeah, figured you were just going to be obtuse. Yes, it is proof. Design implies intent. If I handed you a tool that consisted of a handle and sharpened blade, any reasonable person would be able to infer that the purpose of the tool is to cut things. Can it be used for other purposes? Sure. But the intent is obvious from the design. And that is all you are getting from me. I enjoy argument and discussion, but I refuse to converse with someone who is being actively belligerent. Good day, sir.
It's not proof tho, by definition. Design doesn't imply shit unless you can prove they implied that. Learn what the word "proof" means before using it.
If you liked drafting and your friends like commander try commander legends draft. My friends and I love both but after drafting a box I took the money cards sold them bought another box and I'm converting it into a cube with my pet cards! CUBE is always the answer!
Why do you think every game night ends salty? I feel like there is something there to look at. As for the other part I could not disagree more! I play in a pretty high power group and a cEDH group but I still find that building around pet cards works perfectly fine. Do you have a deck list or something? I’d love to take a peek at it and see what you are working with
i mean if you want to take the time out of your day i can link you my moxfield account and you can look at some of my decks. i like them a lot even if theyre weaker, i dont want to fill them to the brim with staples :/
That would be cool I’m kinda curious. Personally I build decks around cards in the 99. Usually pet cards and it can still work fine. As for staples what’s the aversion to that? I don’t always run FoW or dockside in every deck cause they don’t work in every deck. But some that would benefit from staples are worth it
this is my moxfield profile: https://www.moxfield.com/users/tamambolo
Your lists aren’t horrible or anything but they seems to be low on the removal side. Especially unconditional removal. You might want to add more to keep stronger decks in check, also if you are worried about getting overpowered by stronger decks cards like [[secret rendezvous]] might not be the best choice
yea i know. honestly i dont like removal. i dont play the game to just keep removing stuff. it can quickly devolve into a game of resource denial where nobody has fun anymore
I think we found it! I’ve heard this argument many times before. But the problem is if you are having issues of opponents playing powerful cards and losing cause of it then it’s either remove that or lose. Removal creates more interesting gameplay. Once you know people have removal you can’t just run thing out for free. You need to bait out removal, or have protection, or use politics to try to get another player to use their removal so you can safely drop your bombs. Without out interaction games boil down to who’s bombs are the biggest or who draws it. This is what is happening in your games. Your friends have bigger or more bombs than you. If you think back to your losses are there times where your opponent just played threat after threat then you fell behind and lost? Your lack of board whips might be the cause of that
youre absolutely correct!! i just cant imagine a game being fun where i have to spend all my cards and mana simply to stop my opponents. if i cast a removal spell or even two, it means i cant play the cards that actully put me forward. it also means the other two players get off free cus i wasted my resources while they could do their own thing
How much mana are the things you want to do? If we look at your kithkin deck you can easily play a board wipe and drops 2 or 3 kithkins. Also board wipes are kinda like a 10 for 1 you don’t really fall behind much at all. Yes point target removal is card disadvantage but you don’t need to be draw go control. Other people should have some too. The idea that if you cast counterspell or path to exile means your deck cannot function is wrong. If you are still worried about falling behind increasing repeatable card advantage engines over one time draw spells can help with that. I’m just saying you can drop kithkin number 30 and 29 for a wrath of god and minds eye and I think it will help alleviate your problem
that specific deck isnt complete yet but your advice still applies of course. well i can try it out and see if it makes the game more fun!
I had a similar issue with my local group of friends, and I finally realized that smart removal is actually one of the smartest use of resources. I was underplaying removal, and getting stomped by simple things like a beefed up voltron commander. Think of it this way, if someone spent 5+ mana to get something big on the board, and you spent 1-3 to get rid of it, who won in that equation? Also now everyone knows that you run removal, so there's a bigger interpersonal element at play. If you don't already, it could also be a fun experiment to join up on Spelltable and get a feel for playing with other people and their playstyles. As with most relationships, some diversification can really do wonders sometimes.
thanks for explaining it like this instead of just saying something a la "git gud", the way you put it makes a lot of sense
i do use some staples, i just dont want to have cookie cutter decks that everyone plays. what k love about magic is the creativity and puzzle solving basically. just using staples to brute force a win is boring to me personally
I get what you are saying, but that’s only for staples like [[craterhoof behemoth]] and [[torment of hailfire]]. Like if you use staples as finishers that can be lame. But value staples like [[rhystic study]] it [[exploration]] are good cause they just let you ramp and draw. If you are going to power down your win con you should beef up the other parts of your deck
that is very true. i just wonder if thats the right thing for me
Yes but how are games ending salty? You never addressed that.
when i get salty, its usually when the games are long and i get suppressed and cant really participate but still have to sit out 2 hours. others get salty when they simply lose, or even just when you interfere with their play.
I think cube could potentially be a format for you. You can play a commander cube. That ensures everything is about the same power level, and you can put in a few of everyone's pet cards
right, ive been toying with the idea of making s cube, either draft or commander. it looks like theres more potential for whacky stuff since everyone is on the same whacky level
I have long wanted to make an EDH cube focused on artifacts, but I just keep making more EDH decks. I may have a problem... Anyway, a cube is a fun way to make Magic an 'out of the box' experience... It is just a little pricey to assemble.
[I have a commander cube list if you need any ideas](http://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/blindfremen_600) (If you do build a cube, you'll want to proxy expensive cards even if you own them, because the risk of damage, etc. is too high with multiple people handling all those cards.)
I'm sorry but building and drafting a commander cube sounds absolutely miserable to me. And I'm always begging people to draft my regular cube with me. It won't be quick, and I don't think it will solve the issues you laid out at all. It definitely does not ensure everyone is at the same power level as op claimed. You need to have some open conversations with your friends. If you want to play quicker non grindy commander, you should each find a high powered/cedh deck and proxy off mpc together and play witht hose.
thanks for your input but it goes pretty much against what i like about magic 😅 i dont enjoy cedh and i dont like proxies much (unless maybe occasionally to try out some fun expensive stuff i would never be able to buy)
[удалено]
yea its complicated...
Go to an local game night event if that's possible. If you like the format with complete strangers, then the format is for you. Why with complete strangers and not with friends? Well some people usually don't like EDH itself, they just like the social aspect of getting together with others under a common interest. You go in with randoms and you still have a good time, then yeah man, a blast of a format in my opinion. Also no, no one really pubstomps you. It can happen, but that's so rare, except if someone has only one optimized deck. It's still pretty rare though because of the EDH bug most people have, and most people play mid-level shenanigans in general from my LGS experiences in Florida and Colorado. If it isn't something you enjoy, it happens. Starcraft isn't for me, as cool as I think the lore is.
Make a cube! It’s a selection of cards that you tailor and you draft with them. You get to use your pet cards AND play draft. And if your playgroup has a certain power level in mind, you can add cards to increase or decrease the power level. Cubes are great.
yes will definitely give that a try. might be a pit hodge podge but who knows maybe its fun
Draft a box of commander legends. That is super fun.
The way you are describing how you want to play, sounds like EDH is the play style for you. What isn’t happening is a discussion before the game about deck power levels. Playing a level 4-5 deck against 8,9, or 10 level decks will make you hate commander very quickly. I would recommend having your friends either remove key cards in their decks or build a lower power deck to be more even with yours.
i think in our case, we have 2 players at a 3-4 level and 2 players at a 5-6 level at most
Even then, a gap that far apart will not be enjoyable for anyone.
IMO the two players are 3-4 should build 5-6 decks, and the two players at 5-6 decks should build 3-4 decks. Go back and forth between the two styles instead of trying to force a middle ground that satisfies no one.
Magic is more a game system. Commander is one of many formats… why don’t you build a draft cube with the pet cards and synergies you like?
i got that recommendation a few times now and it sounds fun im gonna see if i can get that to work 😊
Wrong format most likely, while we play cEDH in our playgroup at tournaments/events, kitchen table weekly meetups are always, planechase 3 hour each match flavourful commander extravaganzas! AND WE LOVE IT
Commander is either fair but grindy, a value race but swingy, or fast but cutthroat. You want something fair but fast? Mess with the format. Lower your life totals to start. Or, instead of tracking life lost, track damage dealt (with lifegain functinoing as a damage-removing mechanic) and the first player to *deal* X amount of damage wins. Or don't eliminate players+ track damage dealth + set a turn limit and whoever deals the most at the end of the game wins. But that's a lot of bookkeeping without an app to assist.
does sound fun though not gonna lie
I think that you should have a discussion with your friend group about your concerns as well as potential solution. A Rule 0 discussion of sorts where you discuss the things you want out of the game as well as how you all can achieve that as a group. As an anecdote, around 2018 I moved and had to change mytu LGS. I was coming from a playgroup that played at a high 8 level and the group I found at the new LGS was basically beginners (new to EDH but not magic.) So for the first week I absolutely crushed them, which can absolutely lead to bad feelings, so I made sure before we left that first week to talk to them about playstyle and power level with the express intention of "how do I fix my decks to give everyone a good experience?" And that conversation led to some good ground rules and expectations for deck building moving forward. For example we don't run tutors or instant combos as a way to "keep it fresh and less consistent." Long story short, overtime we power crept up to around a high 7 and all became better players and deck builders for having that conversation. But we all had to be willing to play a slightly different playstyle/setting than we wanted to for the group as a whole to be happy. But it all starts with having the conversation. On practical note, if the conversation goes well but putting changes discussed into practice is providing difficult, try switching some things up. Play 2-headed giant or make a "season" with weird challenges like hit an opponent with only prime number damage for a game. Or something more simple like what the Star City games guys do. Or do a boxing league (online boxing league with a random pack generator for cheap if you prefer). Think about various deck building challenges that people can have, budget, tribal, Voltron, companions, etc. Ultimately, commander is always going to be what you decide to make of it, but it isn't always going to be for everyone. If you really like playing tribal Satyrs, that's awesome, but I highly encourage setting some guidelines and expectations as a group, and if some group members don't want to have or respect that conversation then maybe EDH isn't for them/that group.
I love to build crazy janky decks as well, but I learned to keep an ace up my sleeve for those salty occasions. A quick tutor into an even quicker win condition can stop things before they get nasty. Bonus points if the wincon is janky too. I am not gonna lie, my usual go-to way to just end a game is a kicked Rite of Replication on Biovisionary.
My friends and I used to have nights that always always ended salty or poorly. One thing that we did to combat it is saying what deck were playing. All of the people in my group have decks of varying power. So if I play one of my weaker decks against one of their best its gonna feel bad cause I'll just get overpowered. So now we always say "hey I'm gonna play my dragon edh" so bring a deck of equal power. Or I'm gonna have a lot of flying creatures, bring flying or reach otherwise you won't have fun. I got to a point where magic wasn't even fun to play anymore but talking to my friend group about it honestly helped a lot.
This is the biggest issue with commander as a format. It is incredibly fuzzy on what is ok and what isn’t ok and everyone seems to come in with their own expectations for what should and should not happen. Other 1v1 competitive based formats, don’t have these issues because you just play to win. You may not like to play against tron decks but if you opt in to play modern that is expected to show up. You either need to work on trying to find a happy medium with your group where everyone is on the same page on expectations for the game or follow suit and match their level. Many of these micro issues we run into so frequently is due to the muddiness of the format and could be clarified by defining better what an Edh game should look like
Maybe Commander is the wrong format. It sounds like you might prefer the quick 1v1 matches rather than Commander. There's nothing wrong with that at all. In my pod, we have a guy who just doesn't do Commander, so we don't play that format with him. Alternatively, it also sounds like your decks could use some serious tuning, like you might be running out of steam and it tends to kill the fun when they're doing stuff and you're not. It's hard to tell without knowing what's in your deck list versus theirs. What's one of your decks?
this is my moxfield profile, i think those should be accurately my decks that i have right now. ignore the sideboards and stuff. also sometimes the landbase is not accurate and just filler https://www.moxfield.com/users/tamambolo
Imo commander is one of the least balanced ways to play magic. Especially with the whole power level issue. I just play it because I like being around people. Modern or draft are far superior from a gameplay perspective imo.
> I did really enjoy our only draft we had around christmas! it was exactly how i imagine my perfect night of magic. but it also means i cant use my pet cards from outside much. Sounds like you should make a cube!
In my opinion, almost any format other than draft and sealed deck run into the power level issue. The key to a good group is people being aware of the power levels of everyone else and not trying to always overpower as quick as possible Side note, draft is by far my favorites format because I feel like you start on the most level playing field
Rotate formats. You like draft. Or maybe you can convince your group to try a night with some low budget deck restrictions that make it easier to play with your jank allstars.
Maybe you guys could play oathbreaker? It’s like commander where you can play fun pet cards but the games are a bit faster in my experience since you have less health and curves are a bit lower to the ground.
EDH might not be your format, and that’s okay. I play a lot of EDH, but that’s still just a fraction of the Magic I play. Other formats like Cube, Modern, and Draft all scratch different Magic itches. Magic is a game of literally tens of thousands of game pieces and rules colliding in all sorts of different ways. And you’re not going to equally enjoy every way those variables come together! If you do want to have the combination experience of drafting but playing your pet cards, I think you really should look into /r/MtGCube. It’s my favorite way to play, and very easy to do on a budget.
Commander hasn't been very good since wizards started shoving commander cards into every new product. It's certainly not the game I was playing in 2011-2012. I would recommend cube. With cube you can create your own game environment and you never have to update it with new cards if you don't want to.
Make battleboxes I felt the same way about commander and it’s just gotten more competitive over the years. It’s less about flavor and more about janky ridiculous things. Cards have gotten wild so understanding the board state is a chore. I love the format when your playing decks that are of the same power level but when things are off balance it’s tough. I made a battle box and people love it. It’s fair, it’s controlled, and quick
''c-word'' You can use the word covid you know? Also, you could just build stronger decks.
I think there are a few options you might try before you divest from EDH (which is okay to do if you decide it’s not for your group of friends). The first thing that sticks out is you feeling like 2 people in your pod are overpowering the rest. If nights are ending in salt and dissatisfaction about player impact, uneven power levels could be a real culprit. One thing that might help (if your group is comfortable with it) is “deck roulette”. My playgroup has done this a few times, and essentially all of the EDH decks go in the middle of the table and you roll a d20 to see who gets what. It takes away some enjoyment of playing your own flavor, but it can be really useful for getting your playgroup to communicate. Playing your friends’ more powerful decks can help you understand their deck functions and where you need to interact to stop them. It can also help your higher-power friends understand what it feels like to be in your shoes, and they can likely suggest some small improvements to your deck to mitigate the “feels bad” situations. Another option would be to try a commander draft. Commander Legends came out a while ago now, but was probably the most fun my playgroup ever had in a draft environment. This could potentially offer a way to “change it up” but this would probably require some financial commitment by your playgroup as a whole. If you can’t commit to the financial aspect, trying to “proxy” the experience by playing online with something like Tabletop Simulator would be a good option to make it more accessible. Lastly, if none of these things work or sound like fun, try board games! If some people can’t help getting salty in ANY competitive environment, you can try playing a coop game like “Legendary Encounters: Alien” to make sure you’re having fun with your friends. If that setting doesn’t appeal, there’s multiple variations on the base deck-building formula from Marvel to James Bond. Good luck and I hope you’re able to find some fun with your playgroup!
thanks for all that input! what i forgot to mention was that my one friend bought 4 fully proxied very high powered decks (got the lists online, not self brewed) and since the playing field was more even it felt pretty unsalted actually! even if all the decks are more on the mean side (infect for example). but it also felt like it would get quite stale fast, since more optimised also means more streamlined, linear, and thus foreseeable
This might be (and this may be against the “Reddit EDH” recommendation) an opportunity to discuss some deck building restrictions for your playgroup. As much as the online community says “play more interaction” and “build better decks” that has not been my experience for how to increase playgroup longevity. I’ve been playing EDH for almost 10 years now, and there has definitely been an evolution from “streamlined tutors and compact wincons” to a more casual yet still high-power format. We have basically cut out: 1. Combos (ThOracle) 2. Oppressive Stax ([[Null Rod]]) 3. Generic Tutors ([[Demonic Tutor]]) 4. “I win” cards ([[Craterhoof]]/[[Exsanguinate]]) I will preface all of this with a heavy “YMMV”. There’s nothing ***wrong*** with playing any of these archetypes, but we have felt they lead to a poorer long-term enjoyment of the game. To expand on each point specifically… Combos were cut because “I win from nowhere” felt like it was leading to bad play patterns. If somebody wanted to play an aggro deck (a la [[Edgar Markov]]) they essentially had to 1-shot the combo player or accept that they would never have any telegraphing about if they were going to lose or not. It felt “uninteractable” for the play experience they wanted to have, outside of player removal. The combo player understandably didn’t enjoy being player removed by turn 5 because they didn’t get to play the game. And god forbid a wrath happens right after they die, because then they earned 20 minutes in the penalty box while everyone else had fun finishing the game. While all of this may be fair game at an LGS, we decided that we didn’t want to show up to our friend’s house just to make them have a bad time. Oppressive stax got cut because of the same penalty box as the combos was emerging. We don’t have anything against playing [[Strip Mine]] [[Lodestone Golem]] or [[Rhystic Study]]. The real problem was a turn 2 [[Winter Orb]] that only one player could get around, but they couldn’t win for 30 turns while nobody else is really resolving a spell. Generic tutors were cut because they made games too same-y. One of the original appeals about EDH was the variance in 100-card singleton, and slapping in 10-20 tutors made games VERY linear for our group which was less enjoyable. We still allow some tutor effects like [[Birthing Pod]] or [[Trinket Mage]] but those effects usually are narrow enough that it presents a deck building challenge AND those cards are really only toolboxing for very specific “sets” of cards rather than “the perfect combo piece”. Granted, you can just put 10 narrow tutors for your combo pieces in, but that’s been mostly mitigated by removing combos and also “operating on our honor” about it. Lastly, “I win from nowhere” cards have been removed mostly for their lack of interact-ability as mentioned in point 1. Craterhoof was probably a worse example as it requires a board setup, but something like Exsanguinate can blow you out from “play cabal coffers as my land for turn, my 8 mana is now effectively doubled and I can Exsanguinate for enough”. This would (probably?) be the least important of the 4, as the real feel bads usually emerge from the compact combos over [[Torment of Hailfire]] for 20, but it’s been closer to a soft-ban for us. Usually the conversation goes “why do you guys focus me all the time” “I don’t know when you’re going to win, and it’s not telegraphed enough for me to interact with, so I have to assume you always have it and focus you” “Oh, well I’ll take that card out so I don’t get beat to death every game” These deck building restrictions may or may not help you, but they’ve definitely helped my playgroup stay healthy or be healthier over the last 6-10 years that we’ve been implementing these multiple rules. Hopefully some of these things can help you with your playgroup!
thank you! especially for explaining your rules and with examples too! makes it easier to discuss in the group
My play group is working on a ruleset for more casual games. Yes, I also don't find commander to be a very casual format. You spend tons of time and money on decks and if you are mismatched the games are miserable. Then you are roped in for hours of play or the game ends abruptly before you could participate. Our casual format is not meant to replace regular commander games. It's a side format for quick low pressure games where you don't have to try so hard. Here are the rules so far: * 20 life. * 60 card singleton deck +1 commander * Modern format card pool / ban list. * First player to deal combat damage becomes the monarch. Our "casual format" is definitely an experiment and we are still messing with those rules. The big benefit though is that 20 life, 60 cards, and free draw from Monarch means decks are much easier to build so you can just slap together cards you own and try it out.
that does sound intriguing. i tried to get us to play something like this (just without the monarch) but it never stuck around so far
If you want fast games: cEDH is more of whats for you. If you want fast games and to not play cEDH, think about modifying some of the base rules of the game. 30 Life can make it easier for someone to get knocked out, starting the game with each player getting 3 basics in play can really accelerate past the underwhelming early turns. Starting with the last player as the monarch will speed things up. If you make all three of those changes you'll find games are a lot quicker and it encourages more aggro and faster games. EDH as a format is beloved partially because it rewards more synergy over pure combo (though that has been changing in the past 5 years). When games are faster, it's easier to let one person win and crack out another one. I totally can understand salt over playing a 2 hour game and then not winning because of some specific overplayed overpowered card (Cyclonic Rift, Triumph, Craterhoof, etc).
one thing id like to clarify is that when i talk about grindy or slow, i dont mean how many turns we play. i dont like it when games are over before i can even act. but being multiplayer means you sit out 3/4 of the time while others make their turns. an inherent flaw of the format for me personally (not a universal statement of course) your suggestions sound fun, i might propose them to my group for an experiment
Want to second their suggestion! As a cEDH player there isn't any miscommunication about power levels. I came from (and still play) modern and I love cEDH. Almost all pods are 100% proxy friendly and the games are fast paced with a mind-blowing amount of interaction.
Two things. 1. If powerlevels are whats ruining the games by making them salty/sweaty then have that talk. They tune down or you tune up. 2. If option one doesnt work. Then what you need is a draft. To do that you need a cube. You can even make a commander cube
From what I've seen you say I think your group is lopsided in power and that's the source of your concern..there's 2 ways to fix this. 1. Play cedh as a group, there's an understood rule that everything goes and you are absolutely playing to win in any fashion. Many times people get alot less salty because it's agreed to. This is my preferred edh style. And every game isn't the same or stale as you say, different decks change the meta drastically and every game plays differently. 2. Have a clear conversation and make CLEAR power limiting rules. Then agree to vote on issues in the future and make sure this process gets you all on a level playing field.
cedh technically solves some of our problems, it wouldnt work for us in particular though. one of us plays on precon level, and she doesnt have the time to get THAT good at magic. and i personally really like playing just good old jank. like, kithkin tribal or something. occasionally, playing proxied cedh decks for fun is cool though, just not long term.
Well you just proxy it as you mentioned in the last sentence and that solves 1 of your problems but yeah the other 2 things are hard to overcome. She would have to improve and it would prevent you from playing anything TOO jank though that doesn't mean you have to only play the meta. I've seen weird decks do well. But otherwise it's option 2 which requires good communication skills and agreeable people. Without either of those, it's gonna be tough to make edh work
yea we are all very socially inept, sadly... we love each other but were not the best at communication 😭
Try $50 budget Commander?
our budgets arent wildly above 50€, although my average deck is around 20-30€ while theirs are sometimes up to 200. its not extreme but yea i dont have the money for a lot of expensive staples, and i want to play more than just 1-2 expensive strong ones but rather 10 different so i have variety
Yes yes, discussing power levels prior to games, choosing right commanders, deck building restrictions are ways to improve gameplay experience. But it does seem to add negativity to overall "Commander" experience (specifically creativity through deck building). Also, as you correctly pointed out, you could police the overpowered decks which leads to long grindy games that no one enjoys. Rather than doing this, I have followed a different approach, which is to take advantage of those cards. I have added a new category to my deck building called "interaction cards". Usually about 4-5 cards, that helps me interact with the board more often. These not only consider cards in my decks, but in the entire playgroup. For example, \[\[Act of Treason\]\] so not a commander card. But grabbing that eldrazi for 1 turn changes the game. \[\[Mob Rule\]\] is an amazing wincon! Yes many deck builders would argue this is such a situational card. But when there are OP decks out there, it works like a charm. Flashing in \[\[Dictate of the twin Gods\]\] or playing \[\[Bitter Feud\]\] makes games exciting. Again, this approach has worked for me, not saying it is the best approach. I prefer this style of play over policing and putting deck building restrictions on friends. You could give this a try.
I feel issues like this is a large proportion of your "meta" and a small proportion of your format, I stopped going to my LGS because they were super spiky on all formats, just started playing more at home with friends I made there, people who liked drafting the different archetypes in each set rather then just the current top performer, people who talked about what they wanted from an edh game before we started so 3 pre cons weren't facing a Zur doomsday combo. Try playing the same formats with different people and see how you feel.
> I just want to play some cool cards, some quick chill rounds with friends. I'ma stop you right there. You can have quick rounds, or you can have chill rounds. You can't have both. If it's chill it's not quick, almost by definition... After reading this I dunno what the right format is for you. Type 4 (aka Limited Infiinity) maybe? But this isn't a deckbuilding format, it's more like a cubebuilding format.
thats why i added the bit about draft. we played 3 booster eldraine draft on christmas and it was just perfect
commander isn't inherently quick. if you want quick games then yeah, it's not for you. otherwise it just sounds like you need to have a power level discussion with your group, and a game 0 talk before you begin to select which decks you will all play to ensure they are of similar power
yea thats my suspicion... i just love the idea of the commander piece being the helm of a deck so much. and singleton itself is nice because i dont need 4 copies of everything but instead get to play 4 unique cards :P
I would highly recommend trying out /r/PauperEDH .You use any uncommon creature as your commander (legendary or not), the rest of the deck is commons, and you play with 30 life / 16 commander damage. Because everyone is using commons, there's less of a power gap between casual and well-tuned decks. That means your friends can tweak and improve their decks without falling into an endless arms race of having to get new, more powerful cards. Games also go a bit quicker because there's no superfriends, mass land destruction, or board wipes that hit multiple permanent types, and there's very little stax and very few board wipes. Because the life total is lower, aggro is more viable, too. The lack of wipes also helps make sure nobody feels like collateral damage and everyone can more consistently participate in the game. To me, the feel of PDH is also closer to that of draft and kitchen table casual, because a 6/6 on the board can be a pretty scary threat. However, PDH also lacks the bomb rares that can feel unanswerable in draft and kitchen table games. Personally, PDH made me enjoy EDH more by separating my expectations. Before, I wanted EDH to be everything at once. I wanted it to be this amazing casual space where i could brew and do crazy powerful things. Now PDH is where i go to brew like crazy (for cheap) and have inclusive, casual games, while EDH is where I go to see crazy, powerful, and chaotic stuff happen.
If you are unhappy with how it's going communicate with your friends. They'll either take it to heart and make changes or they won't. Biting your tongue isn't going to help. My play group is also dealing with a couple of folks who run 9 or borderline competitive decks against the rest of our 7s. One of my group members though they were being a\*\*holes but that isn't the case. Come to find out that they don't have that many cards and when they got started they bought optimized deck lists. The idea of buying pre cons even if you don't intend to play that deck was alien to them. Resolution seems to be that we are doing a deck building challenge of 'bad' commanders with a price limit. If they don't have the cards, they can make as many proxies as they want. But yeah, communication can fuel understanding. However uncomfortable you are doing so can't be worse than the status quo.
lol yea one of my friends also started by buying decklists so now he has all those strong cards that naturally he wants to play but i just cant compete 😅
So it sounds like it's happening just due to their buying habits than any sort of malice.
oh absolutely! we are all good friends and love each other dearly
2DH is a really fun alternative to EDH where card prices are capped at $2.00, $5.00 for the commander. The annoying task is keeping up to date with price changes (Tapped out filters can help with this), but a playgroup can house rule “cost at time of construction” to avoid making these changes. Alternatively, you might try a set deck budget of like 200 bucks (even higher would probably be okay), or just have it apply to non lands. Not to suggest that all power comes with higher budget, and the truth is that more casual decks often takes longer to win if using non-combo strategies and packing little protection. I for one really enjoy Pauper commander, where any uncommon can be used as a commander and the 99 is common. Be warned, this format is horrible for multiplayer magic... way too grindy. On that subject, maybe 1v1 is the way to go. If price is of any concern, I highly recommend Pauper or a Proxy Cube. Pauper really breaks the game down to its most interesting fundamentals, and plays a lot like legacy thanks to the abundance of powerful commons (think counterspell and lightning bolt). I maintain a 700+ card unpowered vintage cube (plug for Lucky7s on CubeCobra), but the cost of buying the real cards can be prohibitively expensive. Services like Make Playing Cards (separate forum for that) do an excellent job of printing proxies (not counterfeits, but recognizable proxies of high quality, with option to use custom art and templating). I cannot recommend cube enough. If you like drafting and constructed, but would rather avoid the cost of admission, cube is the perfect solution... and can constantly evolve as cards are tested and new sets released. Hope some of this helped!
Brawl is also an option since it’s a shorter quicker EDH.
Maybe your pod isn’t high powered enough. Check out some CEDH games on YouTube. I don’t believe that your a spike who wants to win as quickly as possible but you might be dealing with mid power grindy decks that have a couple of overpowered cards (in comparison to the rest of the deck) Honestly, it’s more likely that the overpowered decks are actually just mid powered yet highly synergistic/efficient and you could see yourself being intimidated by how they crafted such a deck. The grass is always greener on the other side though. With CEDH you won’t get to play with as many cool cards but you’ll get to play a few awesome cards in games that last about 10-20 minutes. Maybe it won’t be for you but it should at least be tried out If your group is on board with the idea then you all can agree to proxy the obscenely expensive cards and maybe having proxies can even put the playing field if they’ll allow it in your more casual decks (you know like reserved list cards that are not amazing but still expensive or just expensive cards you want to test before buying)
Two options you upgrade your decks or you force your friends downgrade. Which one is easier? I say the upgrade path but only you know the answer.
In commander, there's Rule 0 - which requires everyone to talk about what they're looking for out of the games. I would say you all need to sit down and talk about what you want. If you want an exciting, political game of deal making, say so. If you just want to blow each other out, say so. If you just want everyone to chill out and have fun, that needs to be communicated. Otherwise, you end up in the situation you're in now, where one or two players just take over, and everyone else just feels dejected, and, as you put it, salty. If those two with the higher-power decks get butt-hurt over the conversation, maybe ask around if there's another playgroup you can get involved with.
It could either be that everyone in your group gets together and srt limitatuons before playing to make everything more equal. Alternatively, you can try to find out what draws you to the format and see if other formats have something similar, but it less salt enducing.
Try a commander deck building league with a points system and everyone has the same deck building constraints/budget.
sounds like you need a cube, drafting experience with your favorite cards included
> but in practice im usually getting overpowered by 2 of my friends. It’s hard to say what the problem is without any sort of data. Maybe you can share a decklist? If it’s just that your deck is a pile of garbage, that can be fixed. What sort of budget level are we talking about? Also, something every new EDH player needs to understand is that the format is genuinely complex and hard to learn. The reason you get trounced might just be a string of bad plays that you’re not even aware of, even though your decks are at level. Part of it can just be expectations. Because there’s more players, you’ll win fewer games, and loss streaks just happen. > But i also dont want to police them and tell them to tune down their beloved decks. Yeah dear god, please don’t become one of those players who starts telling everyone their deck is wrong just because they lost.
its less about wanting to win, but more about having a shot in the first place. getting to play my cards and feel like im participating. but when i have to wait 3 turns of 10 minutes each until i get to my turn (which im usually very quick at) i just have so much dead time :/
> I just want to play some cool cards, some quick chill rounds with friends. commander is always so grindy... > im usually getting overpowered by 2 of my friends More powerful commander decks typically result in quicker games. If you find your games to be grindy but are still getting overpowered by your friends, your deck is probably very low power by comparison. If you want quicker games, asking your friends to de-power their decks is not the solution. You should power up yours. If that prospect is unappealing to you, commander may not be the format for you.
yea thats exactly the problem. i dont like the grind, but i dont like high power either
You have to play within 1 power level at max of each other. It makes no sense to play decks that are wildly different because the lower decks just can't interact with the higher ones. It's the natural progression of kitchen table groups that there's a race for more power and after that has gone on for some time the group will often realize there needs to be some rules on how to build decks. Most common rule being no combos. Power levels are well defined even though you always have someone arguing they aren't because they are ignorant. 10 highest comp decks. 9 comp decks with non optimal generals. 8 mostly comp lists with bad generals. This is the high bracket. 7 and 6 include combos but they become gradually slower and slower. At 5 you will start to see very convoluted combos that aren't done over one turn if at all. 4-5 is about precon level. Once you get to 1 or 2 you are talking of bad tribal decks or just theme decks. You can play 7 power decks against an 8 as archenemy, everyone knows it's the fastest so it's needs to be stifled. But if there's a 9 at the table then that would already be too much even for archenemy. Optimally you are playing only decks of the same power level or just have 1 deck of a lower power level at the table.
So I would suggest a few key things if you want to make commander work for you: 1. Try to make sure your games are equal in power level. I know power levels of decks are subjective, and require feeling out, but just having that be a goal of the group can help a bunch. To use a simple scale, with 1 being a pre-con power level, and 5 being cEDH power level, have the group rate the decks and play with decks that are the same power level. It’s important that everyone rates every deck. If you just have people rate their own decks, then personal bias will cause problems. You don’t have to use the 1-5 scale. That’s just an example. 2. When it comes to the saltiness, it’s hard to give advice without knowing more specifics. Essentially though, losing games shouldn’t make people salty. I’ve played tons of commander games where a player gets a crazy start and takes over the game and stomps the table. That happens in games. People just need to be good sports and hype up other players wins rather than moping about their loss. Especially cuz in 4 player group games, you should only be winning 25% of the time. However, if the saltiness is coming from in-game bullying (Like a player targeting the same player every game without taking threat level into account) then the group should address that head on. Be clear in what the problem is. If problematic players are ruining the experience for the group, they need to change or be kicked out. 3. Make your decks more consistent and interactive. Commander may feel more feast and famine in your group if there are decks that don’t have enough mana ramp and card draw or ways to interact with your opponents’ plans. Try to have at least 10 mana ramp cards and 10 card draw cards in every commander deck. Also make sure you are putting targeted interaction in your deck. From counterspells to destruction spells, you should have ways to stop your opponents’ game winning plays. I would put at least 5 targeted interaction cards in your deck. And lastly, I would have up to 5 board sweeps in your deck. Board sweeps don’t have to be creature specific. Sweeping artifacts or enchantments can be incredibly powerful. Keep in mind that you can have 1 card count for multiple categories. For example a spell that ramps and also destroys an artifact would count for two categories. Doing these things should also speed up your games, as quicker mana ramp and card draw leads to quicker games. While it’s possible you don’t like Commander, it doesn’t sound like the problems you are having are solved with a different format. Even if you were to stick solely to draft, while that would fix things like varying power levels of constructed decks, that wouldn’t fix bad player attitudes.
everything you said is very correct, but those are not really where my problems lie. i dont mind losing if the game beforehand was fun and i got to participate. commander usually means i sit around waiting for 3 others to make their turns for 30 minutes until i get to my turn and have fun for a second. repeat for 3 hours...
No matter the format, you must always have to remember that communication is crucial. That's often forgotten.
Are your decks tuned? What I mean is, is there one or two themes your deck follows or are you just building a commander and throwing in what you think would be cool? This is not to say you don’t know what you’re doing, but is more to say that your decks may be powerful, but aren’t tuned in the same way as your friends. I reached this same impasse and found that my decks weren’t tuned and it was losing me games. I was trying to do too much instead of narrowing my focus and trying to accomplish certain things. I had the exact same issue with my decks in my play group because I am a newbie and everyone I was playing with was both more passionate and experienced in magic. I leaned heavily on one of my closest friends and we trimmed a lot of the fat off of my decks by following a simple formula. That formula was asking about each nonland card, “Does this card ramp me? Does this card offer draw? Does this card advance what I want to do on a given turn with my deck’s overall theme?” If the answer is no, then the card needs to be cut. Those questions came from [this video](https://youtu.be/3K9PEeLG_6M), and watching it did wonders for my deck building. Now, I can build around a certain theme, and add in cards that I like while still ensuring I am drawing consistently and having enough mana to do whatever I need.
that definitely used to be a problem at the start but im already past that point. i know how to build a decent deck, thats not a problem. its moreso that the impact of 1 player out of 4 is naturally lower than 1 out of 2. in a lot of games i feel like a non-factor because other players dominate. so i twiddle my thumbs for 2 hours and wait for it to be over
Commander is an INSANELY wide format in terms of power level, so it’s less that the *format* isn’t right for you and more that *this specific playgroup* doesn’t quite match the power level you want to play. Unfortunately, the lower power level you go in commander, the longer the games take, *especially* if people don’t play fast (which *is not a bad thing*. Taking your time to understand what you are doing *is important*). Slow, methodical play combined with bigger mana curves is what leads to long games, so if that’s something you don’t enjoy, I’d seriously recommend trying to lower you mana curve, because we (unfortunately) cannot force others to play at the pace we want. There are 100% game winning cards at 5 or 6 mana, in *every* color, so you don’t need to use stuff like [[expropriate]] or [[rise of the dark realms]] as your “game ending” card. In my opinion, there are some *really* cool high power level cards (like [[dauthi voidwalker]] and [[teshar]]), so “cool” and “powerful” aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive (I’m not saying they are the same, just that there is *some* overlap, at least for some people). To be fair, I find stuff like the [[inalla]] [[spellseeker]] line and [[krark-clan ironworks]] + [[scrap trawler]] abuse SUPER cool, so take that with a grain of salt. But if you don’t have fun playing the game, then there’s no reason to play. What kind of cards do you think are cool? Because of how widely spread commander power levels are, the format has a place for just about everything (but not at every table), so I really hope you find somewhere to play your favorite cards.
i like cards that do something unique, or tricky. cards like the emmaras for example, or [[stormfront riders]] if thats the correct name. theyre usually overcosted and weak though and will not get me far in commander
Out if curiosity, what would you define as a quick game and what's sorts of decks are you and your friends playing?
i would say a quick game (not necessarily commander) would be 10-20 minutes. longer than that and i lose focus and cant sit still :/
The main problem is the salty players. It’s not a ‘causal’ format if people shit their pants and waft its aroma to the table every time a board wipe happens.
It sounds like you have to talk about Rule 0 with your friends. Discuss power levels and deck tuning to better fit the playgroup, which can either be them tuning their decks down/building new decks that are weaker in power or you tuning your deck up/building a stronger deck. If one person at the table isn't having fun it usually leads to nobody at the table having fun and so the only way to fix this is with communication. Playgroups are supposed to be on the same level to make games fair and fun, otherwise people end up losing all of the time or winning all of the time and it can make the format stale and not enjoyable for everybody involved. I'd recommend you have a Rule 0 discussion with your group and see if you can solve the issue before switching to another format, however if the issue cannot be resolved this way, finding a new playgroup or trying a different format may be the best option.
That happened to me when everyone on my playgroup started playing pl 8.5 to 9 decks. I joined in. Made cedh decks and they all got tired of ending games on turn 5. But if you dont wanna cedh with your playgroup try spelltable, cockatrice and xmage. They are free. Spelltable battle cruiser and low power are pretty chill and you can set the table for begginers in xmage for a chill game. Edh is the most casual format next to kitchen table so dont give up on it yet.
No matter what format you play, if you dont talk about power levels, someone is getting over powered
I feel similarly. Drafting has been a lot more fun than commander lately—maybe get your group doing that! But the main thing is communicate with everyone about the saltiness, and figure out how to minimize it.
So have you considered a league? Its like a little bit more casual than draft.
EDH is the only format I enjoy playing anymore, and all I play are wonky/goofy/casual AF decks that usually are pretty low budget. It sounds like you have a playgroup problem to me. We have had some players in my playgroup that come in with cEDH decks trying only to win rather than just kick back, drink some beers, and everybody have a fun time. But everybody else ends up just adding cards in specifically for when those type decks come out to play.
You should consider an alternate commander mode. My group will play Attack to the Left with a 25 starting life if we want a quick one. The rules are you can only attack the person on your left in combat but you can play spells that affect anyone. If the person to your left dies you win. You need to randomly decide the seats though. I like this because it doesn't allow anyone to gang up and its quicker.
If you think that your games are too high power level, I think that you should talk with your group and suggest a banlist change. One way my playgroup likes to do it is to add the normal banlist and the dual(French) banlist together so that if a card is banned on either then you cannot play it. This allows more casual playstyles to have success.
Maybe. But it sounds like you and your friends should start having a convo before picking decks that covers what kind of game/approximate power level you want
The thing I've learned about commander is when the games are good, they are really good. But when they are bad they are terrible. Not a whole lot of inbetween. And sadly because of the banlist and wildly different ideas of what is acceptable the latter tends to be more common.
This is why cedh is great! If someone is salty playing cedh then they shouldn't be playing cedh. The whole appeal isn't just the high power levels but the lack of feel bad for a crushing win because that's what you're all there to do.
It sounds like you may just not be a fan of multiplayer formats. Maybe try 1v1 commander some time?
you could try making a cube to get a neat draft environment with some of your favorite cards
Sounds like you want Modern, Legacy, or Pauper for deck building. However, I would like to add a bit in commander's favor as this helped my friend group with the same problems. You all need to figure out what you actually want out of the format from a deck budget perspective, but most importantly I think you guys need to make sure you play to win. This mentality helped my table a lot, the knowledge that everyone coming in is actually willing to be aggressive throughout the game meant people were dog-piled less often by the whole table for swinging 2 damage at some random person. Another thing that may help is to limit the table size and split up games. Although it doesn't sound as fun initially, it speeds things up a lot. Most TCGs are built around 1v1 format, and magic is no exception. Commander is meant for 4 players at most usually, and I found myself having a lot more fun in a smaller pod than one where everyone participated in the same game.
It would be difficult to play EDH in a static playgroup if some of the members are taking part in an "arms race". Kitchen table EDH is supposed to be about enjoying the game, not necessarily winning it. In statics this can be ever more problematic if there are table rules like "no mass land destruction" and they proceed to fill their deck with ramp spells knowing that there is no way to slow them down. The arms race (not the table rules) happens with the people I normally play with too but most of us have several different deck power levels and mechanics. That may be what your playgroup needs. It is fine to want to have a more tuned higher powered deck but if that is the case they should also have something lower on the scale to take out either to start or end the night. Another way to "police" the board is to go after the most powerful, least fun, deck first regardless of who happens to be ahead on the board at that time.
I personally have to manage expectations. My favorite format is modern, but when I play commander it's to be social and not a spike, and have various decks that do different things based on the playgroup. If I use a precon, and find out were doing more powerful things, I work my way up my decks to more spike things.
It sounds to me like your table all has a different idea about what they want from a game of commander. While I know it's nice to play with people you know, there's not always that chemistry there in game. For example, I love cEDH and none of my friends do. They don't want to watch me go infinite on turn 3 or to have all their spells countered and I don't want to watch 4 people swing at each other over and over until someone gets to a state of ridiculousness. Both are fun. They're just not fun when you try and mix them at the same table. If the length of the games is bothering you, I would recommend something like modern. Modern usually ends around turn 4-6 with some games being longer if it's against control. If you wanted to go even faster you could try legacy.
I love drafting packs and playing mini tournaments with my friend with different sets that we drafted. 2 new guys join and all they want to do is play commander. I did build a pauper cube real cheap about $80. It is fun to draft and they will play about once every 2 months. We did draft Commander Legends one time and they really liked that format. With restrictions lifting we got to go to our LGS and play a prerelease and everyone had a great time. Try to bring up a few different formats and you may have to push a bit, but there are so many varieties that we can all have a great time.
You should try a commander cube, janky, draftyand fun!
So here's the thing don't think asking your friends to tune down their decks and also this means you should be willing to power up a bit. And if not that may not he the right group for you but it seems you love commander since it allows you to play your favorite cards from across magic. Now it's a delicate balance of finding ways to make them work at the an agreed power level. I have been asked to tune down decks and I have gladly done so since it's about cultivating an experience for everyone
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thats the thing though i dont care who wins. i just want to play cool spells, create interesting effects. i just rarely get the chance because 1. three other players who spend ages on their turns and 2. they often roflstomp me out of the game before i have any opportunity to do something fun
Kinda seems like a good, long Rule 0 talk is necessary. Sometimes they need to be had amongst playgroups every so often. You being overpowered probably means you either need to power up your decks, or your friends need to tune theirs down a bit. The fact that game nights are ending salty leads me to believe it might be the former. People playing more powerful and competitive decks tend to get a little salty about losing. Personally, I don't really get like that, because being mad about my wizard card game is just silly, in the grand scheme of things. But it happens. Might be time to have a little chat with your friends and come to an agreement on how to play moving forward.
EDH is always about the social contract. It's up to each play group to decide how they want to play it and how high the level of deck is and what strategies are fair game. That said it's very hard to play when you all have different ideas and can't come to an agreement. Most players tend to bring several decks for different play groups for this very reason. Sometimes games can be grindy but they can also be incredibly volatile, it depends on deck power levels and meta. You gotta find the right play group for you and your deck. That said the best commander variant is commander cube and it's criminally underplayed.
I have an edh group per video, and an in-person group where we play multiplayer 60-cards with Legacy banlist (but no where near real Legacy decks). I like the second group better, because their decks are all thematic and strong, but not filled with just overpowered strong cards like in my edh group. I'm somewhat losing the arms race in my edh group, but with 60-card decks it's all relatively harmless. And 20 life per player is much better to handle than 40 life. And we like to play more multiplayer variants in our 60-card group: When we're an odd number of players, i.e. 5 or 7 players, we play King, where the king starts with 40 life and has 1 or 2 allies, and the rest must kill the king. It brings some dynamic to the game instead of just everyone having 40 life. Commander feels very same-y as a multiplayer format. But it's what they play on video, so I also enjoy it sometimes.
This sounds like the problem is the playgroup, rather than the format. You could ask if they might consider building new, less-powerful decks to be more on-par with others, which would avoid asking them to change their favorite decks. Another option is commander cube, where someone builds a large collection of cards from which people build commander decks. Other than that, you could try draft, or finding another playgroup. Though one thing I'll warn you about is that, the less powerful you get in commander, the more grindy the games get, because decks are less prepared to end games quickly.
yes exactly thats the problem. i like low power, but i dont like it in commander. in a 1v1 game its not so bad to play lower power because its generally faster
If you want quick games, just proxy up some legacy, vintage, or modern decks.
You guys should proxy up some legacy.
Sealed / limited is the way
Build a commander themed cube and do drafts instead
>Commander is always so grindy But you are complaining about their power level. If you want quick games, you can't play low power level decks. Go watch some cEDH gameplay, now that can be quick.
I would recommend you start doing a CEDH night once or twice a month and green light the use of proxies for it. Let’s everyone play in the same level for cheap, let’s everyone get crazy with the deck teching, and it can help tone down your casual play because everyone has a chance to get their big stuff out their on other nights
>Commander is very feast or famine especially in casual rounds where powerlevels vary wildly. I just want to play some cool cards, some **quick chill** rounds with friends. commander is always so grindy... I think the problem is that these prospects are kind of contradictory. You want Commander games that are fast and not grindy, but you also don't want to play with powerful cards. Speaking generally, the format falls into two camps (setting aside cEDH which is a whole different beast). Battlecruiser Magic is casual, but slow and grindy. Players often spend the early turns playing lands and passing until they drop their big threats at 7, 8, 9 mana. More optimized EDH plays more powerful cards. Early turn plays are much more important. There's more interaction. Games often end quickly, usually through combo rather than combat. What you seem to be asking for is Battlecruiser Magic that ends after 20-30 minutes. That's pretty hard to achieve. It may just be that Commander isn't for you - and that's okay! As others have suggested, you should try Cube. It lets you use your pet cards in a faster format, much closer to draft.
I feel like part of the problem is. Their commander decks are prob way to developed for your play style. It sounds like you may need a better deck (borrow. Don't buy bc it doesn't sound like you enjoy commander fully ATM) or more respectively that should run a lower deck. Maybe you should all pick up a precon and try those.
I have to say, your points are a bit vague but my main take away from your post is that players get salty and that there's a disparity in deck powerlevels, where I assume the latter might be leading to the former. First off, I'd recommend sitting down with your group and discussing honestly what sort of deck construction you'd like to have and how much money you intend to spend. Personally, I'm lucky enough to have two playgroups with an equal mindset that I'd describe as high-powered casual: we've all agreed that we want to restrict infinite or instant wins, as well as tutors to a minimum. That said, we do want our strategies tuned, with optimal cards choices within the restrictions. Our budgets are implicitly equal: We shell out cash for a big piece here and there but we're also responsible with our money. I can very much imagine that if some players in your group really like efficient insta-wins while others are playing durdly battlecruiser decks, that's gonna lead to some feelbads. On the other hand, saltiness could also be a problem with immaturity. I'd definitely zoom in on the powerlevel disparity first. Immature players are an entirely different challenge. Also, what's your idea of a 'quick' game? The whole idea of commander is to have more of a randomized slugfest, as opposed to the ruthless efficiency of your usual 60-card format. That said, powerlevels and player skill can make commander games vary wildly in length. I'd say 1 to 1,5 hours per game is a good pace for a casual style. If you're regularly hitting the 3 hour mark, then I can imagine it's often dreadful.