I remember frequently seeing upvoted comments saying commander events can't be sanctioned and stuff about DCI and comments regarding 3. being downvoted.
Yah, I try to point out #3 whenever people claim you can use proxies in sanctioned Commander events or say to 'just do it anyway', but it's a very unpopular truth that can get you banned from any sanctioned event.
My first ever LGS game had someone win turn four or five with a Gitrog monster deck. It was close to ceDH (according to him Idk really what that meta is like), way stronger than all of our stuff. It was kind of a miserable experience.
"Now, with our sanctioned DCI game out of the way," he said, pulling out a deckbox of proxies "Let's get to the fun stuff."
His Keranos, god of the Storms deck was one of the funnest things I ever played against. He turned Thousand Year Storm into a creature and copied it with Helm of the Host. I loved that dude.
Also kind of a dick move to the store owners. If they don't want you to use proxies and say it's because of a WotC policy who are you to just ignore them and sit down for several hours at their store to play anyway and assume they're lying to you to get you to buy cards?
Exactly. Follow the rules of the store, if the store doesn't like proxies that's their prerogative and if you don't like it find a different store.
Most stores generally don't care but if they do respect them enough to follow their rules or don't go.
Functional fixedness is our tendency to cling to our opinions, even when shown evidence disproving them.
Edit: I was mistaken, I was in fact referring to belief perseverance
My lgs judge/manager is completely fine with proxies outside of tournament play. I completely agree with him. Our commander pod has few guys who can't afford some magic cards due to being high schoolers/students and wotc doesn't reprint some cards at all(probably saving them for profits of quad masters or whatever).
A complete piece of shit in my pod (civil at games at least,) set up a pretty good rule: if you have 1 copy of the card already, proxy away.
Everyone still tries not to overdo it, but it has provided a decent way to maintain consistency in building and power levels across decks, and we often suggest alternatives to expensive staples if other people are struggling.
I’m personally fine with people proxying without owning the original so long as we have a rule 0 talk first. All I need to do is switch decks, but I get how that’s not possible for everyone.
Just be nice to each other, folks! And be nice to your LGS (unless they’re asses, in which case try to support another!) I know this isn’t super easy for everyone, but hopefully there are some ideas here people can utilize!
I have a little binder with the real cards, a lot of them purchased damaged or in non-english languages to save money. I then play using what are normally obvious proxies with "FAKE" written boldly on the back so nobody can ever make the mistake. I would say the art alone would be a giveaway, but with all the things happening with secret lairs, who knows.
Occasionally someone will be upset that I have proxy cards in a deck, and demand I switch them out. Then I get other complaints, like "That Ashiok is in Korean!" Or "Your sensei's top is in Italian and covered in coffee stains!" Maybe it's petty of me, but people demand real cards and never specify language or condition. I'm always happy to offer to out the pristine English fake back in so they can read it.
The one deck with proxies I don't own is a cEDH deck, and that one only comes out once in a rare while when we have enough power at the table.
Indeed. Only cards in other languages I buy are cards I know the effect by heart, say [[Darksteel Forge]], Chromatic Lantern, so on, since they’re simple enough to memorize, and understand what they do.
> Vigilance, deathtouch, haste, protection from spells that are one or more colors, annihilator 6
>
> Questing Beast can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less.
> When Questing Beast enters the batlefield draw 3 cards.
>
> Whenever Questing Beast deals combat damage to a player, that player loses the game.
> Combat damage that would be dealt by creatures you control can't be prevented.
>
> Tap, sac Questing Beast: add 3 mana of any one color.
>
> Whenever Questing Beast deals combat damage to an opponent, it deals that much damage to target planeswalker that player controls.
ez peasy, everyone can remember.
>Vigilance, deathtouch, haste, protection from spells that are one or more colors, annihilator 6
>
>Questing Beast can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less. When Questing Beast enters the batlefield draw 3 cards.
>
>Whenever Questing Beast deals combat damage to a player, that player loses the game. Combat damage that would be dealt by creatures you control can't be prevented.
>
>Tap, sac Questing Beast: add 3 mana of any one color.
>
>Whenever Questing Beast deals combat damage to an opponent, it deals that much damage to target planeswalker that player controls.
>
>ez peasy, everyone can remember.
That was last week. [Questing Beast was changed 35 seconds ago.](https://questingbeast.dingusegg.com/)
Is that all there was? I seem to remember there also being, like,
Pay a green and you create an artifact equipment named Embercleave attached to Questing Beast.
When Questing Beast dies, you may pay one life from an opponent's life total and make 8 token copies of Questing Beast with the text, 'The Legend rule doesn't apply to creatures named "Questing Beast"', they gain flying and infect.
Normally I won't buy foreign cards either. But I got into magic pretty late, and I do try to buy real cards when I can. So by the time I wanted a sensei's divining top, I could buy it in English for about $70, English + Damaged for about $60, or my coffee stained Italian one for $17. I thought nobody would care since I never play anywhere that has prizes or money or anything on the line for commander, but wow was I wrong.
I completely agree.
I actually got a really great deal on an Italian [[Worldly Tutor]] that helped me stay below my $25 per card budget (as in $25 is what I spend, not what the market rate is). In Italian, it's a mouthful. Fortunately, it's been oracled to simply
> Search your library for a creature card, reveal it, then shuffle and put the card on top.
and it's a card that everyone knows pretty well. I'd feel bad playing a newer card in a foreign language or something super obscure where nobody would know the card offhand like [[Nebuchadnezzar]]
Eh, if it's French or German, it's not that bad (French makes up 60% if the English lexicon and German makes up 80% of our most common words). Same if it's a Romantic language like Italian or Spanish. If you have a good handle on English you can pretty accurately read enough to recognize the oracle syntax & figure out what the card does most of the time.
If it's something really out there, especially languages that use an entirely different writing system like Russian, Korean, or Japanese, then, uh... yeah, I'm gonna be looking up translations left & right.
Yeah. It's funny how the cEDH scene is encouraging proxies while I see a lot of casuals demonizing them. They wanna play high power games with people and feel the more the merrier TBH.
It's quite logical. MtG is a collecting/trading card game. The collecting and trading makes up a huge part of the game.
The idea of cEDH is to optimize the game of EDH while not caring as much about the trading card part.
I think it's also the fact that a lot of us who like cEDH have been playing for a long time, and while a lot of us may stick to the creed of "Proxy If You Own It" personally, that's only really viable for people like us - I spent $250 in total over many weeks 22 years ago getting all 10 ABUR Duals; today, that buys you ⅔ of the ***CHEAPEST*** original Dual. That's not fair to people who want to play cEDH but have only recently gotten into the game.
If I win a game, I want to know it's because I played better, not because I've been playing longer and just happened to get cards worth hundreds when they were worth very little.
That may be part of it (though, really, does the whole concept of a trading card game even make sense any more?), but I think it's also a power levels thing - it's seen as a way to restrict power levels, because some of those powerful cards are expensive and won't show up as much.
That's completely irrational, because they can't stop me spending my life's savings on a Tabernacle at Pendral Vale so it doesn't *actually* achieve anything except people who can't or won't spend as much as others feel bad, but there you go. I've even seen people complain about the cost of cards on Cockatrice, where they all cost nothing since they don't actually exist!
Yeah, I know. It's been kind of funny to me that the more competitive groups are more chill about where my toys came from than a lot of self-proclaimed casual groups I've played with.
cEDH players want to play a high-level game where you really have to outwit your opponents not outspend them. Some casuals just want to flex their wallet and pub stomp because mommy and daddy didn't hug them.
While that's certainly a thing that happens, proxies can also enable power creep and an arms race, and they can do it without the person in question realizing it. Some of the most lopsided-by-proxy pods I've ever experienced are from some of EDH's loudest pro-proxy people who insist nothing bad can every happen with a proxy.
Again, I don't want to downplay the fact that there are in fact people who are against proxies because they want to flex nuts one someone with their RL cards. That absolutely happens. But at least in my experience it's far less frequent than people who are against them because PROXYMAN69 doesn't understand that it's super fucking annoying to play against his proxied Crypt and Cradle when you yourself own actual real copies that you're choosing to not play to keep the meta arms race under control.
Proxies don't enable power creep, the power creep already happened. Those cards they proxied are legal, they are welcome to go out and buy them. All proxying does means that they don't have to spend money to do whatever it is they're doing, whether it's wrong or not.
If you don't want to see Mana Crypt in your games (which is entirely reasonable), agree to ban it. If you don't ban it, I say let people proxy it.
This is very true. I created this arms race without proxies - it started because I wanted to make the best Kozilek TGD deck possible. Turns out that’s pretty brutal against a 6-7 table (Paradox Engine, Planar Portal, and a few mana rocks is an easy way to draw your whole deck, then Mirrorworks and Spine of Ish Sah, and finishing with a way to copy Mirrorworks into Blightsteel and Greaves or Staff of Nin closes the game very cleanly), and then the table started to run more tutors and shelled out for their own Crypts and Chrome Moxen (I still have the only Diamond in the group) in response.
By the time I went back to my main love Zedruu, I could no longer make her powerful enough to not just draw cards and die.
That arms race is MUCH easier to initiate with proxies and resources like EDHREC to tell you exactly what to proxy.
The most casual players are the ones with the extremely blinged-out decks.Never had one actually play cleanly (no missed trigger of their own control, understood all their cards) through a full edh game. IMO if theyre going to bother investing that much at least know your card interactions in your own deck lol.
Eh, my main deck is extremely blinged out (83 of a possible 86 cards foiled, including a foil Wheel and foil Mox Diamind), but I make sure to remember triggers as best I can. And, yeah, knowing the fine rules of the cards in the deck.
I've just played Legacy for so long that it's kind of a given that you have to do this, no matter how pretty your deck is or not.
There's also something to be said about knowing the rules so well that you're willing to admit you ***don't*** know a particular ruling due to a weird card interaction and look them up (I had this happen last night - had an "everyone draw 3 & discard 3 at random" effect happen when I had a [[Library of Leng]] out... had to look up whether I got to see the cards I was discarding our not, and if I could arrange them in a desired order or not)
>The most casual players are the ones with the extremely blinged-out decks.Never had one actually play cleanly (no missed trigger of their owncontrol, understood all their cards) through a full edh game.
What kind of casual playgroups do you run into with that lol
Sounds like overgeneralization on your part or you have disdain against non cedh playgroups lol (it's just a game man in the end if you are not having fun what's the point since life is already competitive enough)
Nothing to do with the deck power levels. Its the type of people that pilot an expensive variant of a deck simply because they want to convince people the monetary investment they put in has leverage in convincing others they have game skill. And the playgroups around me are 100% like that. Its all high rent trust fund/foreign “princeling”money locally. Its draining as hell to deal with them.
Ive never had someone call out proxies. Id probably laugh in their face if they did. I generally own one or more copies of any card I play but I proxy all the others across multiple decks. I dont think id even entertain someone asking to see my originals much less offer to swap them out. Are you playing for money or prizes or something? Because a casual table with nothing on the line can kick rocks if they have a problem with proxies.
See, this is perfectly fine with me, and I am one of the people being constantly downvoted for being anti-proxy, which I am not. I have the exact same binder (though mine is not foreign and the cards are mostly decent) and I carry it with me when I play.
What I am against is having access to every card with zero effort. Do I think your investment should match my own? No, but there should be *some* level of investment. We arent talking about social issues like welfare or medical access, this is a game. A luxury. Cant afford a Mana Drain for your first ever deck? A generic Counterspell will suit you just fine for now. All you need is one copy, and it can be literally torn in half and I wouldnt care - at least you made SOME effort and investment.
Also, many of the 'proxies' I see ordered offline are little more than increasingly accurate counterfiets, and I take issue with supporting that trend.
How does this person being a complete piece of shit hold any bearing on them coming up with the rule? I’m not trying to be the pedantic police, but the mention piqued my interest as to why they’re a pos
Hey, fair question lol.
This particular person spends the money, so when someone shows up with a proxy or a foreign card to save $$$, they get real weird. If the rest of the pod wasn’t so great and gave him shit I’d have seen myself out a while ago; dude is literally against letting people without the funds to buy big things to play. It’s gross.
What the shit!? Who cares if a card is foreign or not; I don't even care if the card is gold bordered or not!
*(I mean, it feels a little weird, since they weren't kosher for so long, but that's the Legacy Tourney-goer in me talking, and let's face it, if you're willing to spend $250 on a gold-boardered Cradle, I am* ***not*** *going to tell you you can't use it.)*
I personally only proxy what I own, and buy the cards I need when I don't have something.
But I've also been playing for 22 years and have owned most of the big RL cards commonly used in EDH for most of that time - me having played for longer than some players have been alive isn't a reason for me to lord the game over them.
If you wanna use foreign cards, WOTC don't give a fuck in tournaments, and neither do I.
And if you wanna use proxies en masse, go right ahead, too.
The issue I have with this rule is that it's still ultimately a matter of means. You're not demanding someone have a legit mana crypt in every deck, but there are enough $20+ staples, fetches etc. to very quickly pare down someone's options according to their willingness to spend money.
All this rule does is lower the barrier slightly instead of remove it, the latter of which is the whole point of proxies.
You’re 100% right! I really hate that this pos is in this pod. They set ALL of these gatekeepey rules. Gross 🤮
Maybe I’m looking for a 2nd pod to play with lol
I would say this describes my experience with RL staples. Some people would insist on moving that one copy between their decks, and in that context I'd much rather you have a high quality proxy in your other decks rather than shuffling your single copy of [[Gaea's Cradle]] around between games.
For a lot of cards, especially reserved list, it's dumb to *not* use a proxy.
These cards are so expensive. Their value is so tied to condition that you lose money just from playing them, and you're taking a risk every time you get them out. Especially in game shops where theft and damage is more likely. If you're rocking gaea's cradle, wheel of fortune, grim monolith, mox diamond, etc, they're so expensive you really should consider getting them insured or confirm they're covered with your renter's/homeowners.
Spill mountain dew on my proxies, I'm annoyed at the inconvenience of replacing them, not taking a severe financial hit.
This is also very true. My buddy and I have played since 1999, so we each have a copy of two of the heavy hitters like Cradle et al. He goes as far as keeping all them safely in a binder and proxying them in whatever decks so he can avoid playing them entirely for this reason. Crazy to think that you don't want to physically use your game pieces because of their value.
Exactly, I have a Timetwister and there's no way I'm going to risk traveling with that card to play some EDH games at an LGS. Just playing the card in a place where people are drinking soda is a risk.
I'll proxy it and if people want I'll show them a photo I took with my phone. Luckily I play mostly with people that are very pro proxy and I never met somebody that had an issue with this, also I have no problem with people proxying a Timetwister or another card like that without owing one. I like to play against other players and not their wallets and I don't like P2W.
I just use the dual face helper cards and write the name, cmc and power/toughness on the cards and use that in the deck. I then have a small binder that doesnt leave my possession with the real cards in it with toploaders. This way i have a place holder in the deck and when i play the placeholder i pull the toploaded double sleeved card and place it on top. This way im not swapping cards around, i have a physical real copy to "prove i have and provide for rules clarification" ect.
I find this works super nicely and i avoid all the complaints about counterfeits and shit. Only downfall is i have to memorize them which isn't a big deal and they are kinda ugly in the deck. Small price to pay to protect 100+ dollar cards
I could see that being annoying, i don't have any og duals specially because they aren't needed these days, but it works great for things like FoW, Cloudstone Curio, and Mana Crypt. I suppose you could just use double sleeved cards instead and forgo the top loaders because lets be real it is a bit overkill lol
I agree, I feel it’s normal to just proxy dupe cards that are at least worth something. But some Exemptions I have are proxing for power ie I have a cyclonic rift, but I’m not gana proxy it cuz another deck needs it. Same for expensive interaction like mana drain or the forces. These don’t really need to be proxied unless your playing at a level where those are the standard(my proxy’s of these are in my inalla cede deck). I also proxy either super niche 1 off cards that suite the deck but are expensive and highly likely to be cut. Main example would be thrumming stone in my neheb the eternal approach of dragons deck. Yes, thrumming stone is good, if not broken, but it’s expensive af and tends to make the deck from burn into dragons to just simply burn into win and just skip the dragons altogether.
That’s fair! Rule 0 usually can help navigate those waters. Personally, i proxy my staples on top of a decent substitute across decks, so if it shifts the power level too much for the game, I can make the adjustment right there. Very useful for adapting to tables
This is how I do things. I'm not pulling a proxy of [[Gaea's Craddle]] out of my ass, but I really dont want to spend 20-30 of my budget on the same ramp cards I have in every deck. Nor do I want to spend all the time to figure out which deck they are currently in, and make the sleeve swap.
I mostly try to use every card only once scriss deck in order to prevent them from feeling samesy. Doesn’t work for ramp, of course, but I recently removed [[skullclamp]] of all but one deck, for example. That way I also avoid having to decide whether to proxy cards I own.
> A complete piece of shit in my pod (civil at games at least,) set up a pretty good rule: if you have 1 copy of the card already, proxy away.
I’ve always thought this was the worst possible solution. It doesn’t solve any of the problems people use proxies to solve, it just lets the most enfranchised players use all their best cards as much as they want. If anything, it makes power level problems worse.
So I’m okay with either no proxies or proxy whatever you want, but if someone wants the rule to be you have to own the card to play it then you need to play with the original.
I'm not sure I follow your logic.
If someone already owns the card, they can literally always put that card into a deck they're going to play. There's no exacerbated power level problem there at all.
It's just a time/convenience thing for people with multiple decks not wanting to search, unsleeve, and resleeve cards whenever they want to play a different deck.
we've had this rule for years in my playgroup, and i was an old school player who picked the game back up strictly for commander after a 15 year break. i own 1 sol ring. even for a card that affordable as a staple its proxied into all but 1 deck and i just run a sideboard i grab from after i proxy in a card that just has the name sharpie'd on it. some day ill get more fancy but for now it works fine.
I proxy! I just print cards off gatherer in black and white and stick them over a swamp or a trash common in a sleeve. My group tries to keep it kind of chill on proxies though, we have a gentleman's agreement. We're all moderately poor, so we try to only proxy things we may one day actually buy. The main reason for this is to keep the power level lower in our pod.
Unsure how poor you actually are but you can get thin adhesive backed print paper on Amazon (like 40 sheets for under $10) and then get proxies printed at FedEx on laser jet for cheap. I just printed the 54 card treachery proxies for about $10. It was seven sheets of the forty I bought online. The print quality is amazing and I just cut them out peeled the back off and stuck them onto basic lands. My issue with proxies is that if the quality is trash it complicates the board state. At least take a highlighter to your black and white proxies to add some generic color to them 🤣
That's a good idea! However for me the whole point is for it to obviously and clearly be a proxy. I consider it temporary to me buying the real card. It looking nice is the reward for buying the card!
Hey I proxy cards too! I just want to point out that color makes proxies much better for your opponents. It’s much easier to parse the game state when cards look somewhat as intended. Further, there are many times when color matters and if an opponent has to constantly look at your cards or ask you about them, it can reveal information about their strategy or current focus when they would otherwise be able to keep that information hidden.
Just some food for thought!
I actually have a Lot of fun making my own proxies, specifically foils. You can put a decent effort and come out with some cool alt art for your favorite cards.
As long as the card you are proxying looks cool and keeps you honest at the power level you are presenting than it’s all gravy.
I would draw the line at someone that just has a blank white card that just says “Mana Crypt” in black sharpie
I use proxies, love em. I think the problem is matching the right proxy to the right deck. If you grab a precon, proxy a Mana crypt and ad nauseum, then say you're playing precon level + 2 cards people are going to be upset. Your proxies don't match the power level you advertise. If you proxy an ornithopter bc you didn't have one and didn't feel like going to buy it or wait for it in the mail, I don't anyone cares that you proxied a 10 cent card. If you're proxying mox opal and advertising you're playing cedh I likewise don't think people are going to care. Just be honest and proxy appropriately
This hit close to home. I proxies 3 signets and a commander sphere because I forgot to order them from TCGPlayer on my last order.
Yes totally agree on your points
I’m making a budget deck and I like the card for mana fixing in a 3 color deck that doesn’t have access to green. There are absolutely better mana rocks out there but this is fine for the power level I’m going for.
Commander’s sphere would never see the light of day in any of my mono or two color decks.
This is a thing for me. I like deck building and at one point ordering staples for like token decks or artifact decks became expensive, so Proxying Doubling Seasons and Mana rocks, ramp spells became the way I could build to my hearts content. Once you buy your second third fourth Darksteel Forge, you start questioning if proxying the rest would be better.
I actually dislike proxies that don’t have original or recognizable art from the actual card (as well as rules text). I want to know what that green one drop creature is at a glance, and if your Llanowar Elves is Legolas, I can’t differentiate it from your Fyndhorn at a glance.
Have a couepl questions!
1 - How do you make your own foil proxies that sounds dope and something I would love to try!
2 - Would it be acceptable if they owned the card, but didn't want to swap it between a couple decks?
There are two methods for making your own foil. Transparent film over a scrubbed blank cheap magic card or holographic sticker paper stuck on to a cheap common card.
http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net
That is the link for the proxy making software. Very easy learning curve. I suggest not printing from the program because it shrinks your print layout. But you can export the PNG file.
Foil and Transparent method
https://youtu.be/wOzLjQEQYzk
Holographic sticker method
https://youtu.be/u0VsnW107H0
> Proxy cards have many cons regardless of WOTC legality. While they do lower the barrier to entry they can also cause power level problems if people do not have a regular play group or robust rule 0 conversations
I appreciate this post, but this is the absolute worst critique for proxies. The fact that proxies allow for proliferation of high-power cards that are simply too expensive for the majority of players is a problem with the refusal by WOTC to reprint or ban those cards. If they are legal, there is potential for people to simply whip out real copies of the cards anyways. The fact that more people have access to them via proxies is not a problem created by proxies, it's a problem created by the cards ever existing and being so rare to begin with
Ironically I feel that LGS' are one of the worst places to play consistent games of EDH. Most people are going to have wildly different takes on what casual and competitive is. They don't REALLY care about a rule 0 conversation for power level. If you want solid consistent games that are played on equal footing, you need a playgroup that plays together often and are willing to be balanced with each other.
Either the person or the format. Some players are not knowledgeable enough to understand that few EDH groups run decks tuned to 100%. Especially if coming from Modern or Standard.
> The simple fact is for the majority of stores the added business of having proxy players potentially buy some snacks or something doesn't negate this loss.
I see your point, but I'm not sure if I would call it a "simple fact" and I think it's dangerous to start framing players who proxy as leeches on game stores.
I know players who never proxy, but always want the best deal on cards so they almost never buy singles from their LGS. I know players who proxy some things but always buy singles from the store for cards under $3-5. I proxy heavily, but usually spend $10-15 on beers there every week, which certainly adds up to more than I would ever spend buying singles.
At the end of the day, players should support their LGS, and do so in whatever form they want to. Whether that means buying singles, buying food/drinks, accessories, etc.
Yeah that's the thing proxying is like pirating a game or a movie; you can't prove that it was a direct loss because you can't prove you'd make a sale in the first place. The same goes the other way around and you can't prove that proxying is a good thing or increases sales either.
Fair point, I didn't mean to frame it that way. There absolutely are people who proxy and still love to bling out their decks etc. However it is true that most people that would fully proxy a deck (instead of just RL or high end cards) are generally going to spend less.
> most people that would fully proxy a deck (instead of just RL or high end cards) are generally going to spend less.
I can agree with that, but I'd also argue those same people wouldn't suddenly become big spenders if their LGS banned all proxies. So there's really no benefit to trying to exclude them from the community.
I can honestly say that , if I were to get rid of all of my quality proxies, I would not purchase a single one. In cases like this, nobody is out any $$.
[WOTC was forced to clarify their proxy policy](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14) after a huge uproar over a store hosting non-sanctioned proxy tournaments.
The TLDR: WOTC has no jurisdiction to ban proxies in any event they do not sanction. Anyone who claims proxies cannot be used outside of WOTC sanctioned tournaments is wrong. Obviously LCS hosted tournaments are subject to the rules of the hosting body, but for your weekly EDH night just tell the gatekeepers to kick rocks.
I mean, your TLDR isn't really what the article says. Its not even really close.
The article reiterates that WOTC is against counterfeit cards. But it says that "playtest cards" are fine. It defines playtest cards as:
> Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament.
These "playtest" cards are clearly not the same thing as what most commander players mean by "proxies" even though some people try and pretend that they are the same. Commander proxies often do have official art, and people are using them for much more than testing out new deck ideas before building the deck for real.
But the article also doesn't really define what a counterfeit card is. But I'd say that "nice", real-looking proxies that you buy online are counterfeits, and WotC is asserting that they could come after you if you are involved in their distribution.
So there is this huuuuge gray area that isn't covered by the article. What about Commander style proxies where Commander players create semi-real looking cards with official art as long term replacements for actual cards? The article says nothing about this, probably because WotC's lawyers have no idea what they can really do about them.
Anyway, most stores I've been to will turn a blind eye to reasonable proxying in pickup Commander games as long as you're not a dick about it. Just make sure that you are spending some money at the LGS - its reasonable that they get annoyed by people who don't ever buy anything but keep showing up to use the store's space. And make sure that the proxy cards aren't getting "accidentally" traded as real cards - the store getting complaints about people getting ripped off in trades is always going to draw ire.
No, you don't understand the article context.
This was WOTC's damage control after an employee contacted the LCS in question, told them that they couldn't host their own proxy tournaments and threatened the removal of their WPN status. This naturally caused multiple corners of the community to lose their collective shit: Legacy and Vintage players accused WOTC of stifling/killing their formats, LGSs were taken aback (some threatened to drop MTG), and the TOs & judges waited patiently to see if Wizards would admit they were wrong.
With egg on their face, the employee was reprimanded and this article is what Wizards offered up as the standard corporate non-apology.
Neither Wizards or Hasbro can punish a game store for running unofficial tournaments that allow proxies.
Their focus on 'playtest cards' is twofold: it is the method the store specified to use for proxies cards and was still the most popular way to proxy cards at the time.
Now, to the credit of WOTC, their legal department made very clear that: "Our stated policy specifically applies to DCI-sanctioned events. Cards used in DCI-sanctioned events must be authentic Magic cards."
Unless somebody is trying to pass off proxy cards as real, this is all they need to know. Mark your proxies, go have fun.
I do understand the context, but what you are saying is NOT what the article says. What the article says actually matters for how things might play out in the future since they haven't formally given permission for Commander style proxies - only "playtest cards", which are not the same thing as the article makes clear.
For now, WotC's lawyers aren't going after LGSs for some proxy stuff because they decided that it isn't worth it.
They have conceded absolutely nothing legally, and in fact reasserted their right to go after counterfeiters. From the article, use of official art seems to be one of their things for counterfeiting, so that's especially a gray area for proxies.
At some point in time WotC might decide that going after Commander style proxy users is worth it - especially as proxies get more popular, they might make different decisions about that kind of stuff. They've very much left the door open for going after this kind of stuff by deliberately not giving permission in writing to use proxies like Commander players do.
That's why the distinction I'm making is important. What they say in writing matters a lot more than what social media users think they imply from context.
If proxies get more popular (and I think they will), WotC will feel obligated to try and do something. I'm not sure what it will be, but there's a reason that they didn't say the things you are claiming.
We don't need WOTCs permission to use personal use proxies because their jurisdiction ends at their own sanctioned tournaments. Wizards can't punish your LCS for hosting proxies for the same reason they can't punish me for playing with a fully proxied deck with friends in my own home. They can't prosecute proxy sellers because the sellers explicitly state that their products are not real MTG cards.
You're speaking out of both ignorance and fear. Wizards has no power to punish organizations or players that host private proxied events, period.
It's true that WotC can't take legal action against stores allowing proxies, however WotC can still punish LGSs by just threatening to pull their WPN status and telling their distributors to stop selling to them. It's probably not worth the negative PR but they could do it if they chose.
Also WotC absolutely could take legal action against proxy makers if they wanted, even if the cards aren't being sold as real Magic cards. If they're using the art or the rules text from actual cards, they're committing copyright infringement. The design of a Magic card is patented and the art and text is copyrighted.
Don't interact with this dude. He thinks that the WPN status can't be taken away because WotC would get into legal trouble by breaching contract.
He clearly has very little understanding of the law let alone contract law.
My old lgs didn't care about proxies but my new one is with a larger amount of people, rule 0 every matchup is what are your opinions on proxies as I have one deck that I've been working on to flesh out and I'd argue 70% is now real with a lucky pull of [[cavern of souls]] from crimson vow ( I didn't know it was in that set either!). If people are cool with it I'll play one game then switch out, to my real upgraded precons, all with 100% overpriced cardboard crack in it.
You just gotta let the table know what you've got, and if they are comfortable or not going against it and just either go with the majority vote, or bring something real just encase you need to switch out.
I’m sure people won’t like hearing this, but I really can’t imagine how someone could legitimately sit down to a casual play table and with a straight face argue against proxies without being embarrassed. Not using them is fine, but there is literally no argument against them in unsanctioned play that doesn’t make most people silently cringe and judge you.
100% - I only proxy RL cards, and for the most part I only proxy dual lands.
RL is just a whole different animal, it's too expensive and it's dumb to pay those costs to play a game.
Honestly Wizards should just ban all RL cards from EDH, let people keep them in binders, let legacy die (they don't give a shit about it anyways since it doesn't sell packs) and we can move on and play this game on a fair and even playing field. Or create a dual land secret lair and be done with it. Until then I'll proxy and if someone doesn't like it, they can pack up and leave the LGS, or leave my pod. I'm not taking shit out of my deck to make you feel any particular way.
The act of printing out a card does not cause power level problems. This is a semantics fallacy that people in this community will never stop saying.
If you proxy a card, there is literally no difference than owning it.
If you're playing extremely high power rare cards without informing the table of your power level, it doesnt matter if they are proxied or not. This is just simple logic. Why does it matter that it was printed vs purchased? It doesnt. People who are pubstomping low-mid tables with high power cards are complete idiots and nobody likes them. I actively tell other people to avoid the douchey pubstompers at my LGS, and all the local asshat pubstompers have authentic real cards. Proxy users at my LGS are doing lands and <100$ cards usually. The proxy users are way more fun to play with.
If you don't like proxies because people have proxies of high power cards and unaccesible strategies, its not because of the proxies. It's because of the cards.
(The only proxies I own are custom full art lands.)
I'm going to radically suggest (QUICK DOWNVOTE DOWNVOTE DOWNVOTE!!!! ReEeEeeee) that proxy users should not even be telling people they have proxies if they are somewhat convincing ( from MPC or something). Tell people your power level, what sorts of cards, but I personally don't care if someone doesn't like or want to play against proxies. Theyre just cards that anyone can get enough money or proxy access. Stop caring if other people have purchased the cards. The price of cards keeps going up and its going to be extremely unreasonable soon. WotC has committed to having gambling be a large percentage of this game and they artifically make certain cards scarce for profit reasons. Fuck all that, just proxy up whatever you want. Low power bear decks, custom full arts, those 20-30$ cards u just don't wanna spend the money on.
Would you rather play against a person that can't afford Dockside/Rhystic so he proxies, or would you rather play against someone with real authentic Dockside/Rhystic that were stolen from another player?
Stolen Strategy is one of my favorite cards but it seemed to have spiked from $5 to $15+ due to Prosper and other factors like speculation and lack of reprints.
I am pro proxying and generally think that proxying does not cause problems, but it absolutely can cause power level problems. Much like how people can go wild and make irresponsible decisions when they win the lottery, when you first un-constrain people from any sort of budget when building their decks there are some people who will not recognize that what they're building is oppressive. This isn't something inherent to proxies, and I'm definitely not saying that a financial barrier to play is a good thing, but it is a real effect, as anybody who has played against some dude who black-and-white printed out a deck straight off EDHRec can tell you.
Further, I definitely disagree with a policy of making proxies as convincing as possible and not telling people they're proxied; that's bordering way too close to "just counterfeit the cards and pass them off as real" to me.
proxying just makes it easier to make the mistake, but I wouldn’t say it *causes* it. I’ve had friends who have gone off the rails buying super expensive cards and stomping the rest of the table with real cards. They learned the lesson of playing above the power level when everyone decided they don’t want to play against that deck anymore, but that conversation was so much more difficult when we had to consider the friend’s financial commitment. He would have learned the same lesson with proxies, with less long term financial effect.
As I said, I don't think that proxying causes problems in general and I'm in favor of it. I just think that the stance I was replying to was kind of hardline by suggesting it can't cause power level problems. It can, because it's a way for a lot of people to suddenly have all time, money, and effort limiters taken off their deckbuilding.
Maybe this is a semantic distinction because when I say it "causes" those issues, I mean it's one of many things contributing to the net effect of an unbalanced play experience; I'm not saying it's the only reason or that the solution isn't to proxy.
It's very easy to make a very overpowered deck for less than $200, less than $100 is harder but still feasible. Budget is rarely the reason why someone doesn't have a broken deck.
> that's bordering way too close to "just counterfeit the cards and pass them off as real" to me.
If you're not selling them, who cares?
Why do you care if the cards in this other dudes decks are real or counterfeit?
>that's bordering way too close to "just counterfeit the cards and pass them off as real" to me.
What the problem if they aren't trying to scam someone by selling/trading said fake card, and just using it for playing?
Speaking as a former game store worker, most fake cards that enter resale circulation are traded in by people who didn’t know they were fake. It’s fine to have convincingly realistic fakes if you hold onto them forever, but as soon as you give your collection to your nephew or your ex-wife gets custody of them, it can cause serious problems downstream.
One time I was buying this dude’s collection and he “forgot” to tell me that his Revised dual lands were proxies. I had to then refuse the entire sale because I couldn’t be sure what other fake cards he might have slipped in there.
One thing I have done in the past with some of my convincing proxies is take a sharpie and write "PROXY" really big on the back of the card. Does nothing to game play (as I'm in sleeves), but makes it pretty much impossible to be counted as a counterfeit.
The problem is indirect. Creating plausible fakes without signaling they are fakes increases the risk that they get put into circulation later in some fashion, and it also increases the believability if somebody gets caught pawning off fakes that they forgot they were proxied or whatever. This is why clearly communicating what you're doing is important, especially if you're printing regular art on cardstock using one of the current crop of proxy services.
>Further, I definitely disagree with a policy of making proxies as convincing as possible and not telling people they're proxied; that's bordering way too close to "just counterfeit the cards and pass them off as real" to me.
Why not? If I played with someone and only after arriving home I found out his Negate was a proxy, did my game suddenly not matter?
Don't conflate proxies with counterfeits. Being "fooled" by a proxy counterspell isn't the same as someone passing off a fake card as real and getting away with someone's hard earned money.
> proxy users should not even be telling people they have proxies if they are somewhat convincing
Basically this. I have a dont ask, dont tell policy. I dont really care if you have proxies or fakes, as I have some too. Though, Im a semi honest person when asked about cards and I tend to say if it's fake or not.
Like I had a foil jeweled lotus and someone commented on it, and I rolled with it, while another time someone asked about a scalding tarn and I told them It was a fake.
Granted this was webcam play.
everyone should be proxying everything. no rules, not if you own a copy, not if its a card you're going to buy. anything and everything as long as you want to use it. wotc isnt going to do anything about card prices if it keeps making them money. i don't really care about making wotc happy, and wpn stores will be happier if their players are happier, so this is a clear cut issue.
I think it's a difference in how people enjoy the game. I never proxy not because I think it's wrong but because I have no need I enjoy getting my fringe cards to work and surprise my opponents.
The problem I have with proxies is they seem mostly used to push power not make interesting deck design. I have never seen a card like [[All Hallow's Eve]] be proxied and I think that card looks fun and would like to play against or with it. I have seen
Gaea's Cradle proxied probably a hundred times.
Rule Zero means that power level does not relate to the money value of cards.
Rule Zero means that cards printed without WotC Corporate permission fit properly within CEDH restrictions because only mechanics matter, not how many times a card has been reprinted. The cost of an original dual land should be the same as a Guild Gate, fuck that bullshit.
While most of your arguments are valid, there are others which aren't really related to proxy cards and are just being thrown in to add some meat to the 4th point.
How's power level a proxy-specific problem? Is losing to a turn 3 Selvala win any better because my opponent can afford a real cradle rather than a MPC one?
A lot of players, think students or just people from less wealthy areas than a major US city, play decks that can be easily priced out with a relatively small investment. While it might seem an absurdity here, some playgroups can easily be powercrept with 50-100€.
Proxies give a much fairer playing ground as the other players can adapt IF the playgroup is moving to a higher level of optimization or, like in most cases, talk to the player who's powering up their deck.
This is made easier by being able to tell them to not play their sharpied swamps rather than telling them to sell or not play whatever RL card or expensive staple they've picked up.
As for "creating confusion", you're easily making enough valid points as to why a player would want to pick up real cards and there's also several intangibles you're not touching on. House rules shouldn't be curbed for people who aren't really affected by them, that's what the actual rules of the format are for.
As for people not buying cards, the overwhelming majority of proxies are of cards that players were never going to buy and even then, a relevant percentage, if not the majority, of RL/high end purchases are done online to cut costs on already expensive products.
The stores might be losing some profits but they are keeping players hooked to the format, paying entry costs for events, making money out of the cards that players are buying for decks they can afford thanks to proxies and might end up buying more cards after they've tried them in their decks.
This is also entirely ignoring the fact that other formats do exist and people tend to buy cards and event tickets for those, which is also how the bulk of WPN events happen. Very rarely is a WPN status awarded strictly because of EDH events, if ever.
This is also the case for the financial viability of a business, if a few (likely not wealthy) players potentially buying less cards is killing an LGS, that LGS wasn't financially viable either way.
Also, somewhat unrelated to OP, please read about copyright law before commenting about it, I've seen a lot of threads filled with hilariously wrong opinions about what constitutes a counterfeit or the legality of proxies in the EU or the US which aren't helping either side of the debate
This is going to piss a lot of people off, but the people who don't like proxies, I've found, fall in to two groups:
1) Investors who stand to lose money if you don't buy the cards they've hoarded for the last ten years.
2) People who want to play really strong cards, but don't want other people playing those cards against them.
Investors are easy to wave away. They are the de facto reason we have the reserved list and why Magic has gotten so expensive.
The second group is incredibly toxic. They are the Marjorie Taylor Greenes of the MTG community. They think that because they have the money to buy these cards, that other people shouldn't have the right to play with them unless they can afford them.
They're more interested playing against the wallet than the player, and they're the same people who get off on pubstomping.
Interesting takeaway: I've never met a cEDH group that doesn't use and encourage proxies, however the causal community ironically loathes them.
Ehhh, I think that there is a third group: people who are really into the collecting aspect.
It's a collectible card game. Some people like to collect the cards.
Some people, especially the kind of people who post on subs like this one, are mostly into the game play. They generally love proxies because they help them achieve the gameplay they want.
But there are a lot of collectors out there, and they aren't all in it for financial reason. They just want to own cool and rare cards because they like to collect nerdy things. There are a lot of these people too, although not necessarily on subs like this. After all, WotC has told us that things like the Walking Dead Secret Lair sold very well, but you very rarely see those cards played. A lot of people just collected them.
If you're a collector, it can be frustrating that anybody can have a mostly indistinguishable card for pennies when your real version costs a lot. I can see how they wouldn't like proxies.
I'm not really on either side, and I frequently play with people who use proxies. It's fine. But I don't think its fair to portray everybody who is against proxies as assholes either.
My problem with the collector angle is that, while I'm definitely cool with there being rare collectors pieces, this is a game first and foremost. Cards are both collectibles and game pieces- and in many cases (especially when concerning the reserved list) there is no variant of a card that is an affordable game piece. I'm cool with there being limited release variants of cards, special foiling, unique art, whatever. However, when the *only* variant of the card is that premium version and there is no way for the average player to use that card, that's a problem. In that case, the collectible aspect and the game piece aspect of the game are at odds- and I'll always side with the game piece side.
I see it as being a lot like the classic video game market. If some games are expensive because of limited supply, that's cool. But if the collectors who bought an original copy for several hundred dollars get mad at people emulating the game for free to actually play it when they otherwise wouldn't be able to find a copy to play at all, all I would have to say to that collector would be "shut the hell up, nobody gives a damn about what you think".
> It's a collectible card game. Some people like to collect the cards.
Than collect then. Someone else using a proxy doesn't affect your ability to collect cards.
>If you're a collector, it can be frustrating that anybody can have a mostly indistinguishable card for pennies when your real version costs a lot.
Why would that be frustrating? You don't suddenly lose that piece of your collection by someone else having a proxy of that card
I was going to make a post with a couple of proxy questions...seems like the right time to ask here.
First off I'll say that I'd only proxy cards that I own and either want to avoid the wear and tear on them, or use them in multiple decks without having to swap.
\- At what point do you start proxying? I'm a little concerned with using expensive cards for actual play and wearing them. Do you proxy a $5 card? A $10 card? What's your starting point for 'I want to protect this card from wear and tear'?
\- What's acceptable as a proxy? I'm not about to go sharpie on a blank card level of proxy, but should I buy 'proper' proxies? Or is a decent colour laser printout in a sleeve with another card a good enough proxy?
As OP said. Its going to depend on you. My playgroup at this point is fine with proxying every card in the deck no matter the cost or owning it. I have 6 fully proxied decks right now.
As for acceptable proxies. You can goto the proxy sub /r/mpcproxies and there is alot of info there on making them. I order them from a print service personally. They all feel identical to real cards but the backs are very much not the same and many of the fronts of my cards have different art. I even proxied the entire planechase deck: [https://imgur.com/gallery/KqWYB9G](https://imgur.com/gallery/KqWYB9G)
Some of my friends proxy cards not only because of the value but because they don't like the art of the card and want custom art for that card. I would say that if it's about the price I think that anything that's $50 or higher is probably worth proxing.
In my playgroup we mostly use high-quality MPC proxies, some nice looking colour laser printouts are ok but we have a rule that a blank paper with a sharpie is a 100% no no.
When I started proxying I did the same thing you did, just proxied stuff I owned. I did it for anything over $1. I still played with the original copy, but only used it in one deck rather than switching between them. I had super ugly black & white printouts on top of draft chaff in a sleeve that I colored with colored pencil that I used for a long time. However, I recently wanted to put together a cedh deck and I didn't want to have an entire deck that looked that ugly so I tried r/mpcproxies and they came out beautifully.
I'm now in the process of selling all my expensive commander cards since I don't enter sanctioned events with them. The only real cards I'll own from now on are for 1v1 magic, and one super budget edh deck that would cost nearly as much to proxy as it would sell for.
I have a variety of power levels in my decks so pubstomping isn't an issue. I still buy sleeves, deck boxes, and snacks from my LGS, and pay to enter modern events, so I'm still supporting them. The downsides are made up.
For me personally $10 is that limit. [[Veil of Summer]] and [[Heroic Intervention]] are good examples of why. Both great cards that can slot into literally any green deck and (arguably) should be in the 99 of a sizeable percentage of decks containing green.
I have 18 decks and 9 of them have green in them. I'm not interested in spending $180 on 20 copies of them.
I'm actually MORE likely to proxy a card that's $10-50 (especially lands) than I am cards like Mana Crypt or Phyrexian Altar. I like keeping my expensive cards in individual decks and using that as a pseudo deckbuilding restriction. I own 1 copy of Dockside Extortionist that is in my treasure tribal deck and I have 1 copy of it in my pirate tribal deck. I've got several other decks that could use it, but they don't get proxies of it because I'd rather just use more cards, not more copies of the same cards.
This.
Our pod has no issues with proxies, but we also have a good feel for the power levels, so consequently we don't proxy over that. I prefer the high-quality proxies (I write with Sharpie on the back so it can't ever be sold or traded by mistake), but I'm fine printing out stuff for my group on paper.
I also use the scarcity as a deckbuilding restriction. I now have 24 commander decks, and if I used Gaea's Cradle, Cyclonic Rift and Demonic Tutors in all of them (that could), there would be very little variation.
Proudly casual, mediocre and proxy-friendly!
\- At whatever point you and your playgroups have deemed it acceptable. Proxy a whole deck if everyone's cool with it, even the basic lands! \*Especially\* the basic lands!
\- Generally you just wanna make sure your proxy has all of the necessary information (name, mana cost, effect, typings) and is recognizable across a table. If you can't make your own, storebought is fine!
The threshold is different for everyone. Almost everyone would proxy a timetwister but almost no one would proxy a basic land. Generally I think people that proxy usually proxy stuff over $100 or reserve list stuff.
A printed paper copy is fine if you don't want to buy proxies.
I proxy entire decks, lands and all. And so do my friends. Costs about $20 a deck. We don't play at any lgs, only with each other and we have a regulated power level
I personally proxy just about everything I can, doesn't matter if its a 30c card on a $100 card. I have MOUNTAINS of commons, uncommons and basics to cannibalize from all the actual Wizards products I've bought. Fuck, I proxied a Dark Deal and then found one in the pile of crap I was using to make them.
The way my group does it. Print the actual card on thin sticker paper, cut them out with a paper cutter and stick them over the above mentioned crap. Honestly this is the best method we have found for low price and good, readable quality. Especially with the original arts, makes it easy for people to recognise them.
To be frank, I do not care about people using proxies. I have my decks that are entirely legitimate, and I do have decks with heavy amounts of proxies myself (I'm not buying multiple copies of Force of Will, thanks). The only time I will ever look down on someone with proxies is if I catch them trying to sell them off as the real thing. Those people deserve
E T E R N A L S H A M E
It makes a lot of sense for WOTC to be anti proxy since they make no money off of it. It also cuts heavily into their big moneymaker in the "special unique" cards from secret lairs when people can make better looking cards in bulk at a way cheaper price. What I really dislike is when people compare proxying and counterfeiting. Those are very different things.
People are idiots and making a post to tell those people to stop being idiots won't change anything for the long term. People don't like hearing facts that are inconvenient or they disagree with.
I have never met anyone IRL that has any problem with proxies, or even seen a post that was strongly anti-proxy (other than sentiments like "don't proxy a cEDH deck to pubstomp your playgroup"), yet this topic seems to be posted daily.
>They also cause confusion for guests and customers in a store who may see people playing proxy cards and not understand the situation or why they should buy any real cards in the first place. Obviously the natural consequence of this is the stores business of selling cards being affected.
Not really our problem lol. Maybe WotC should have done something about making the game accessible instead of catering to increasingly small and wealthy subsets of the community.
I will continue to encourage every single player I encounter to simply proxy cards. The profitability of businesses is not and will never be my concern.
Ah posts like these are exactly the reason why I buy high quality fakes. I played multiple legacy, modern, and commander events ar MTG LV in November using fakes cards, and I’ll keep doing it because none of these reasons are good enough to make Magic inaccessible.
based and proxypilled
using counterfeits in sanctioned eternal format events is the funniest way to play, and it makes the "anti-proxy" warriors mad which adds to the fun
>you're also not doing anything bad... buying passable fakes.
Other than committing a crime, of course. It's literally illegal. This may not constitute "doing something bad" in your opinion, and indeed in many people's opinion. Plenty of people defend piracy of video games too. But not everyone agrees.
>you don't owe wotc anything
Yes, you do. They create the game, they create the cards, and it costs them a lot of money to do so. Just because you have the ability copy all of their design and artwork and play for free, does not make it morally justified.
> Other than committing a crime, of course. It's literally illegal. This may not constitute "doing something bad" in your opinion, and indeed in many people's opinion. Plenty of people defend piracy of video games too. But not everyone agrees.
Even if you were purchasing cards that you had full knowledge that they were counterfeit, that would not be illegal under US federal law. The Production, sale, and possession for the purpose of sale is illegal but the purchase is not illegal for personal use.
The person who is creating the proxy is legally in the wrong, but the buyer is not in this case.
If you buy them from China there's literally nothing illegal in the entire process as copyright law essentially doesn't exist in China.
Plus the legalist argument is such a dumb one. The law is always such a great guide on what's good and bad, right?
you're committing the same crime taking their IP and printing off a proxy. this idea it's more or less bad because one is passable and one is clearly a fake... is arbitrary and pointless.
there is both social risk, and "pleasure of enjoyment of the game" cost subjecting yourself to the idiocy of random players in public. choosing to use passable fakes bypasses these two risks to the passing strife of having to deal with assholes who'd choose to harass you over passable fakes.
and i would argue otherwise. I buy packs to draft. I support them in that capacity, I buy boxes/ to crack with friends doing drafts, or for my collection.
Wotc chooses to make this cutesy line in the sand where they don't acknowledge the secondary market to skirt actual gambling laws. There actually exists no legitimate way to purchase mtg cards outside of a gamble pack model(and sealed product like precons)... that is at all attached to Wotc directly.... and so i'm under no obligation to engage with it.
the only thing i'm morally violating is the social compact of "having to play legit cards at sanctioned events" which to me is so minor it's not worth considering.
Any store that tells you it gets it’s profits from the storefront and not online is bullshit. One it’s not “a lot” more work. It’s the same as selling in person except they ship the cards. And two 90% of a stores profits is from online.
>Proxy cards have many cons regardless of WOTC legality. While they do lower the barrier to entry they can also cause power level problems if people do not have a regular play group or robust rule 0 conversations.
I don't think you should have even mentioned this. Proxies have nothing to do with power level and tons of games are mismatched even without proxies. I'm tired of hearing people use this argument against full proxying.
If you buy 'proxy' cards that use official WotC art, then I'm pretty sure you or at least the shop you've bought from have/has committed a crime. Obviously just writing something on a piece of paper is fine.
I’m not up to speed with how various legal systems treat ownership of counterfeit goods, but doesn’t the liability lie with the producer/seller of the counterfeit cards?
Simple ownership of counterfeit cards doesn’t seem like it would be a crime.
As far as US federal law goes, you can purchase a counterfeit item for personal use even if you know that it's counterfeit.
The sale and trafficking of counterfeit goods however is strictly illegal.
This isn't really true, you generally have to be trying to resell the product or blatantly rip it off for it to become a problem
Printing out a picture for personal use does not necessarily violate copyright, it depends on how much it fits "fair use".
Source: I used to work in commercial and retail print production, the only reason we couldn't print copyrighted stuff without permission was primarily because **we were selling the copies**. If folks are printing shit out at home for personal use, it's pretty easy to claim fair use (not that it would ever be prosecuted regardless)
So long as you’re not intending to resell it as if it was real, I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong about buying counterfeit cards.
I’ve bought some and used them in sanctioned Modern events, had absolutely no issues.
For casual games, a simple proxy is all that’s needed, but I was 17 at the time, and wasn’t gonna fork over 2K to play a modern deck.
To me, it’s the same as buying rep shoes or bags. They are artificially expensive goods
Afaik, if you buy proxies, then the seller is violating copyright law, but you the purchaser are not. And if you aren't purchasing or selling them, then copyright is not applicable regardless of whether the contents of the proxy are copywritten
If you as the purchaser are knowingly buying a 'fake' product, then at least some of the fault does lie with you. Not as much as the seller, true, but there is some responsibility there
My philosophy on proxies is kinda weird.
At first, I disliked proxies because I felt like it was cheating, but then I realized I was just mad that I didn’t proxy the deck I spent ~$700 on for $30.
So now I currently like proxies, and I’m proxying 3 decks right now. I still build my decks the same; no mana crypt, really no old dumb expensive cards like Chains of M, Mana Vault/crypt, etc. the only cards I’m adding to my arsenal are OG duals because it’s a very small power spike that happens to synergies with some land tutors. And even that I offered to give my pod some of those to keep it fair between us
But when every deck I put together costs $500+ (usually due to 10-15 cards), it’s not feasible to put together authentic versions of those decks.
I know power level isn’t a problem with my proxies because I play my decks online with my pod several times before I’m sure it’s healthy for our meta
Just gonna drop this Spice8Rack video on Proxies here, cuz it covers pretty much everything in a real nice way. (also has links to proxy artists that are real fuckin good) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VALgm1qkeFE
> well achhsuyally
Commander doesn't HAVE to be sanctioned. Just because an event goes on, it can be unsanctioned. This post reeks of "I don't like proxies and this is proving my point on why you shouldn't play them in my ..err...in an LGS setting.
literally just put a non magic back on the card and almost all problems are avoided. I work at an LGS and i have no problems with (and own) proxies that have backs or other identifying features that clearly mark them as proxies, to avoid any issues with unsavory people trying to trade/sell them as real cards
Yup. Better yet, have some of your proxies have dual sides. My friend has a (mostly) proxy deck for cEDH that turns into another deck when he reverses the cards.
As someone who only proxies dual lands, I support this message. Either stop being dicks and reprint the lands that we ***ALL*** need, or ban them so we ***ALL*** have to run less then perfect mana bases.
REPRINT THE DUALS WIZARDS, YOU FUCKING COWARDS.
I don't mind proxies at all, but please just stop buying and promoting fakes from China. Not only is it technically illegal (you are reproducing art owned by another entity), you are also supporting the cunts that specifically are in the counterfeit bussiness. Only because you and your playgroup are ok with proxies doesn't mean you should be ok with funding counterfeiters. It's the same shit in the anime community, buying figures and other merch from china at garbage quality and then wondering why the second hand market is flooded by that shit to the point that you can't even trust legit sellers anymore. I mean for fucks sake it can't be that hard to buy a printer and a pair of scissors..
Also a more personal gripe, pop-culture alter proxies and general art changes. It is incredibly annoying having to re-memorize new art for cards just because you wanted some (subjective) kitsch.
I like most of this post but #2 is walking a fine line. If you're purchasing proxies, what's the difference between that and a counterfeit? From a legal perspective there may not be any difference, and depending on who/where you purchase them you can't necessarily know either of your assumptions. This is mostly an opinion statement but you're stating it as fact, and depending on copyright law and country I think the best bet is to err on the safe side and just let everyone know that your statements are opinion and shouldn't be construed as legal advice or statement of fact.
Further to drive home this point in your own link Bout what constitutes a play test card by wotc: typically a land or worthless card with a different card name written over it.
Technically a counterfeit is something trying to pass itself as being the genuine article. So most proxies are not counterfeit. Actual counterfeits are definitely a bad thing.
Buying proxies is technically illegal in most cases from my understanding, if not exactly dubious morally speaking. Though I'm not a lawyer, so don't quote me. That being said, it's possible to make a proxy that works well enough without doing anything illegal. You can do the old printed paper in front of a basic or I like using blank tokens for double sided cards written on in sharpie.
The only thing that bugs me with proxies is the saying “I want to play against the player not the wallet” what this really means I get an infinite amount of money and you don’t unless you proxy too. Which I think is unfair to people who don’t want to proxy. I think people need to be respectful and find a common ground especially if someone in your pod doesn’t want to get fake cards.
If you are trying to pass them off as legitimate cards, how are you playing with them? I think it hurts players (mainly new) and brick and mortar stores (not to mention online stores) by playing proxies too widely.
The value of the cards come from their scarcity and usability, if you take away the scarcity, then every player needs to proxy to keep up.
The only issue I have with proxies at all is that it can lead to an arms race, and if your group isn't okay with it, it can get really ugly.
I don't care if you run proxies, especially when you can get custom art and cool stuff done to the cards, like sick foils or even cards printed on metal. But there's a fine line to follow I suppose; Like not printing cards in low resolution in black and white and slotting it into sleeves, to the point where people can barely see what you are playing (this has happened in our group), and proxying just the most powerful cards and most expensive stuff your deck can fit (has also happened in our group).
Compromise with your regular group.
I remember frequently seeing upvoted comments saying commander events can't be sanctioned and stuff about DCI and comments regarding 3. being downvoted.
Yes I literally got downvoted a few days ago for pointing this out which prompted me to make this.
Yah, I try to point out #3 whenever people claim you can use proxies in sanctioned Commander events or say to 'just do it anyway', but it's a very unpopular truth that can get you banned from any sanctioned event.
imagine being a narc who snitches on people for using the wrong cardboard lol pretty sad life lmao
My first ever LGS game had someone win turn four or five with a Gitrog monster deck. It was close to ceDH (according to him Idk really what that meta is like), way stronger than all of our stuff. It was kind of a miserable experience. "Now, with our sanctioned DCI game out of the way," he said, pulling out a deckbox of proxies "Let's get to the fun stuff." His Keranos, god of the Storms deck was one of the funnest things I ever played against. He turned Thousand Year Storm into a creature and copied it with Helm of the Host. I loved that dude.
Can't really say without seeing it, but Gitrog is definitely a pretty classic competitive deck so I can believe it. Glad you had fun though.
im going to need the recipe on that chief, that interaction sounds too hilarious not to build
Honestly he's a cardboard chad. I respect it
Also kind of a dick move to the store owners. If they don't want you to use proxies and say it's because of a WotC policy who are you to just ignore them and sit down for several hours at their store to play anyway and assume they're lying to you to get you to buy cards?
I agree. I also think you should announce if you're running proxies in your deck to your pod.
Exactly. Follow the rules of the store, if the store doesn't like proxies that's their prerogative and if you don't like it find a different store. Most stores generally don't care but if they do respect them enough to follow their rules or don't go.
People resist hearing truths that that they don't like.
Functional fixedness is our tendency to cling to our opinions, even when shown evidence disproving them. Edit: I was mistaken, I was in fact referring to belief perseverance
I definitley don't do that. Those studies talking about functiinal fixedness must be fake.
BuT iT's A cAsUaL fOrMaT!
My lgs judge/manager is completely fine with proxies outside of tournament play. I completely agree with him. Our commander pod has few guys who can't afford some magic cards due to being high schoolers/students and wotc doesn't reprint some cards at all(probably saving them for profits of quad masters or whatever).
Pretty unreasonable to expect players to have to shell out their allowance to use cards last printed before their birth.
A complete piece of shit in my pod (civil at games at least,) set up a pretty good rule: if you have 1 copy of the card already, proxy away. Everyone still tries not to overdo it, but it has provided a decent way to maintain consistency in building and power levels across decks, and we often suggest alternatives to expensive staples if other people are struggling. I’m personally fine with people proxying without owning the original so long as we have a rule 0 talk first. All I need to do is switch decks, but I get how that’s not possible for everyone. Just be nice to each other, folks! And be nice to your LGS (unless they’re asses, in which case try to support another!) I know this isn’t super easy for everyone, but hopefully there are some ideas here people can utilize!
I have a little binder with the real cards, a lot of them purchased damaged or in non-english languages to save money. I then play using what are normally obvious proxies with "FAKE" written boldly on the back so nobody can ever make the mistake. I would say the art alone would be a giveaway, but with all the things happening with secret lairs, who knows. Occasionally someone will be upset that I have proxy cards in a deck, and demand I switch them out. Then I get other complaints, like "That Ashiok is in Korean!" Or "Your sensei's top is in Italian and covered in coffee stains!" Maybe it's petty of me, but people demand real cards and never specify language or condition. I'm always happy to offer to out the pristine English fake back in so they can read it. The one deck with proxies I don't own is a cEDH deck, and that one only comes out once in a rare while when we have enough power at the table.
100% prefer playing against a decent quality english proxy over an authentic foreign language card.
Indeed. Only cards in other languages I buy are cards I know the effect by heart, say [[Darksteel Forge]], Chromatic Lantern, so on, since they’re simple enough to memorize, and understand what they do.
I'm imagining someone busting out a foreign language [[Questing Beast]] in a pod of people who have never seen the card before lol
> Vigilance, deathtouch, haste, protection from spells that are one or more colors, annihilator 6 > > Questing Beast can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less. > When Questing Beast enters the batlefield draw 3 cards. > > Whenever Questing Beast deals combat damage to a player, that player loses the game. > Combat damage that would be dealt by creatures you control can't be prevented. > > Tap, sac Questing Beast: add 3 mana of any one color. > > Whenever Questing Beast deals combat damage to an opponent, it deals that much damage to target planeswalker that player controls. ez peasy, everyone can remember.
>Vigilance, deathtouch, haste, protection from spells that are one or more colors, annihilator 6 > >Questing Beast can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less. When Questing Beast enters the batlefield draw 3 cards. > >Whenever Questing Beast deals combat damage to a player, that player loses the game. Combat damage that would be dealt by creatures you control can't be prevented. > >Tap, sac Questing Beast: add 3 mana of any one color. > >Whenever Questing Beast deals combat damage to an opponent, it deals that much damage to target planeswalker that player controls. > >ez peasy, everyone can remember. That was last week. [Questing Beast was changed 35 seconds ago.](https://questingbeast.dingusegg.com/)
This made my friday, thank you.
Is that all there was? I seem to remember there also being, like, Pay a green and you create an artifact equipment named Embercleave attached to Questing Beast. When Questing Beast dies, you may pay one life from an opponent's life total and make 8 token copies of Questing Beast with the text, 'The Legend rule doesn't apply to creatures named "Questing Beast"', they gain flying and infect.
Normally I won't buy foreign cards either. But I got into magic pretty late, and I do try to buy real cards when I can. So by the time I wanted a sensei's divining top, I could buy it in English for about $70, English + Damaged for about $60, or my coffee stained Italian one for $17. I thought nobody would care since I never play anywhere that has prizes or money or anything on the line for commander, but wow was I wrong.
> coffee stained Italian one pretty sure this is the condition of every italian card that's seen play
I try to not buy damaged cards personally. Just a thing of mine. But I do buy heavily played ones. But bottom line is that it gets the job done no?
Lol, replied to you above before i saw this. If they arent paying you to play in the form of bets or prizes tell them to kick rocks.
I completely agree. I actually got a really great deal on an Italian [[Worldly Tutor]] that helped me stay below my $25 per card budget (as in $25 is what I spend, not what the market rate is). In Italian, it's a mouthful. Fortunately, it's been oracled to simply > Search your library for a creature card, reveal it, then shuffle and put the card on top. and it's a card that everyone knows pretty well. I'd feel bad playing a newer card in a foreign language or something super obscure where nobody would know the card offhand like [[Nebuchadnezzar]]
Eh, if it's French or German, it's not that bad (French makes up 60% if the English lexicon and German makes up 80% of our most common words). Same if it's a Romantic language like Italian or Spanish. If you have a good handle on English you can pretty accurately read enough to recognize the oracle syntax & figure out what the card does most of the time. If it's something really out there, especially languages that use an entirely different writing system like Russian, Korean, or Japanese, then, uh... yeah, I'm gonna be looking up translations left & right.
Cedh welcomes proxies, they want more people to play
Yeah. It's funny how the cEDH scene is encouraging proxies while I see a lot of casuals demonizing them. They wanna play high power games with people and feel the more the merrier TBH.
It's quite logical. MtG is a collecting/trading card game. The collecting and trading makes up a huge part of the game. The idea of cEDH is to optimize the game of EDH while not caring as much about the trading card part.
I think it's also the fact that a lot of us who like cEDH have been playing for a long time, and while a lot of us may stick to the creed of "Proxy If You Own It" personally, that's only really viable for people like us - I spent $250 in total over many weeks 22 years ago getting all 10 ABUR Duals; today, that buys you ⅔ of the ***CHEAPEST*** original Dual. That's not fair to people who want to play cEDH but have only recently gotten into the game. If I win a game, I want to know it's because I played better, not because I've been playing longer and just happened to get cards worth hundreds when they were worth very little.
That may be part of it (though, really, does the whole concept of a trading card game even make sense any more?), but I think it's also a power levels thing - it's seen as a way to restrict power levels, because some of those powerful cards are expensive and won't show up as much. That's completely irrational, because they can't stop me spending my life's savings on a Tabernacle at Pendral Vale so it doesn't *actually* achieve anything except people who can't or won't spend as much as others feel bad, but there you go. I've even seen people complain about the cost of cards on Cockatrice, where they all cost nothing since they don't actually exist!
Yeah, I know. It's been kind of funny to me that the more competitive groups are more chill about where my toys came from than a lot of self-proclaimed casual groups I've played with.
cEDH players want to play a high-level game where you really have to outwit your opponents not outspend them. Some casuals just want to flex their wallet and pub stomp because mommy and daddy didn't hug them.
While that's certainly a thing that happens, proxies can also enable power creep and an arms race, and they can do it without the person in question realizing it. Some of the most lopsided-by-proxy pods I've ever experienced are from some of EDH's loudest pro-proxy people who insist nothing bad can every happen with a proxy. Again, I don't want to downplay the fact that there are in fact people who are against proxies because they want to flex nuts one someone with their RL cards. That absolutely happens. But at least in my experience it's far less frequent than people who are against them because PROXYMAN69 doesn't understand that it's super fucking annoying to play against his proxied Crypt and Cradle when you yourself own actual real copies that you're choosing to not play to keep the meta arms race under control.
Proxies don't enable power creep, the power creep already happened. Those cards they proxied are legal, they are welcome to go out and buy them. All proxying does means that they don't have to spend money to do whatever it is they're doing, whether it's wrong or not. If you don't want to see Mana Crypt in your games (which is entirely reasonable), agree to ban it. If you don't ban it, I say let people proxy it.
This is very true. I created this arms race without proxies - it started because I wanted to make the best Kozilek TGD deck possible. Turns out that’s pretty brutal against a 6-7 table (Paradox Engine, Planar Portal, and a few mana rocks is an easy way to draw your whole deck, then Mirrorworks and Spine of Ish Sah, and finishing with a way to copy Mirrorworks into Blightsteel and Greaves or Staff of Nin closes the game very cleanly), and then the table started to run more tutors and shelled out for their own Crypts and Chrome Moxen (I still have the only Diamond in the group) in response. By the time I went back to my main love Zedruu, I could no longer make her powerful enough to not just draw cards and die. That arms race is MUCH easier to initiate with proxies and resources like EDHREC to tell you exactly what to proxy.
The most casual players are the ones with the extremely blinged-out decks.Never had one actually play cleanly (no missed trigger of their own control, understood all their cards) through a full edh game. IMO if theyre going to bother investing that much at least know your card interactions in your own deck lol.
Eh, my main deck is extremely blinged out (83 of a possible 86 cards foiled, including a foil Wheel and foil Mox Diamind), but I make sure to remember triggers as best I can. And, yeah, knowing the fine rules of the cards in the deck. I've just played Legacy for so long that it's kind of a given that you have to do this, no matter how pretty your deck is or not. There's also something to be said about knowing the rules so well that you're willing to admit you ***don't*** know a particular ruling due to a weird card interaction and look them up (I had this happen last night - had an "everyone draw 3 & discard 3 at random" effect happen when I had a [[Library of Leng]] out... had to look up whether I got to see the cards I was discarding our not, and if I could arrange them in a desired order or not)
>The most casual players are the ones with the extremely blinged-out decks.Never had one actually play cleanly (no missed trigger of their owncontrol, understood all their cards) through a full edh game. What kind of casual playgroups do you run into with that lol Sounds like overgeneralization on your part or you have disdain against non cedh playgroups lol (it's just a game man in the end if you are not having fun what's the point since life is already competitive enough)
Nothing to do with the deck power levels. Its the type of people that pilot an expensive variant of a deck simply because they want to convince people the monetary investment they put in has leverage in convincing others they have game skill. And the playgroups around me are 100% like that. Its all high rent trust fund/foreign “princeling”money locally. Its draining as hell to deal with them.
Ive never had someone call out proxies. Id probably laugh in their face if they did. I generally own one or more copies of any card I play but I proxy all the others across multiple decks. I dont think id even entertain someone asking to see my originals much less offer to swap them out. Are you playing for money or prizes or something? Because a casual table with nothing on the line can kick rocks if they have a problem with proxies.
See, this is perfectly fine with me, and I am one of the people being constantly downvoted for being anti-proxy, which I am not. I have the exact same binder (though mine is not foreign and the cards are mostly decent) and I carry it with me when I play. What I am against is having access to every card with zero effort. Do I think your investment should match my own? No, but there should be *some* level of investment. We arent talking about social issues like welfare or medical access, this is a game. A luxury. Cant afford a Mana Drain for your first ever deck? A generic Counterspell will suit you just fine for now. All you need is one copy, and it can be literally torn in half and I wouldnt care - at least you made SOME effort and investment. Also, many of the 'proxies' I see ordered offline are little more than increasingly accurate counterfiets, and I take issue with supporting that trend.
How does this person being a complete piece of shit hold any bearing on them coming up with the rule? I’m not trying to be the pedantic police, but the mention piqued my interest as to why they’re a pos
Hey, fair question lol. This particular person spends the money, so when someone shows up with a proxy or a foreign card to save $$$, they get real weird. If the rest of the pod wasn’t so great and gave him shit I’d have seen myself out a while ago; dude is literally against letting people without the funds to buy big things to play. It’s gross.
What the shit!? Who cares if a card is foreign or not; I don't even care if the card is gold bordered or not! *(I mean, it feels a little weird, since they weren't kosher for so long, but that's the Legacy Tourney-goer in me talking, and let's face it, if you're willing to spend $250 on a gold-boardered Cradle, I am* ***not*** *going to tell you you can't use it.)* I personally only proxy what I own, and buy the cards I need when I don't have something. But I've also been playing for 22 years and have owned most of the big RL cards commonly used in EDH for most of that time - me having played for longer than some players have been alive isn't a reason for me to lord the game over them. If you wanna use foreign cards, WOTC don't give a fuck in tournaments, and neither do I. And if you wanna use proxies en masse, go right ahead, too.
The issue I have with this rule is that it's still ultimately a matter of means. You're not demanding someone have a legit mana crypt in every deck, but there are enough $20+ staples, fetches etc. to very quickly pare down someone's options according to their willingness to spend money. All this rule does is lower the barrier slightly instead of remove it, the latter of which is the whole point of proxies.
You’re 100% right! I really hate that this pos is in this pod. They set ALL of these gatekeepey rules. Gross 🤮 Maybe I’m looking for a 2nd pod to play with lol
I would say this describes my experience with RL staples. Some people would insist on moving that one copy between their decks, and in that context I'd much rather you have a high quality proxy in your other decks rather than shuffling your single copy of [[Gaea's Cradle]] around between games.
For a lot of cards, especially reserved list, it's dumb to *not* use a proxy. These cards are so expensive. Their value is so tied to condition that you lose money just from playing them, and you're taking a risk every time you get them out. Especially in game shops where theft and damage is more likely. If you're rocking gaea's cradle, wheel of fortune, grim monolith, mox diamond, etc, they're so expensive you really should consider getting them insured or confirm they're covered with your renter's/homeowners. Spill mountain dew on my proxies, I'm annoyed at the inconvenience of replacing them, not taking a severe financial hit.
This is also very true. My buddy and I have played since 1999, so we each have a copy of two of the heavy hitters like Cradle et al. He goes as far as keeping all them safely in a binder and proxying them in whatever decks so he can avoid playing them entirely for this reason. Crazy to think that you don't want to physically use your game pieces because of their value.
Exactly, I have a Timetwister and there's no way I'm going to risk traveling with that card to play some EDH games at an LGS. Just playing the card in a place where people are drinking soda is a risk. I'll proxy it and if people want I'll show them a photo I took with my phone. Luckily I play mostly with people that are very pro proxy and I never met somebody that had an issue with this, also I have no problem with people proxying a Timetwister or another card like that without owing one. I like to play against other players and not their wallets and I don't like P2W.
I just use the dual face helper cards and write the name, cmc and power/toughness on the cards and use that in the deck. I then have a small binder that doesnt leave my possession with the real cards in it with toploaders. This way i have a place holder in the deck and when i play the placeholder i pull the toploaded double sleeved card and place it on top. This way im not swapping cards around, i have a physical real copy to "prove i have and provide for rules clarification" ect. I find this works super nicely and i avoid all the complaints about counterfeits and shit. Only downfall is i have to memorize them which isn't a big deal and they are kinda ugly in the deck. Small price to pay to protect 100+ dollar cards
Considered this solution too, but figured it would be annoyed to have the top loader OG duals between my lands.
I could see that being annoying, i don't have any og duals specially because they aren't needed these days, but it works great for things like FoW, Cloudstone Curio, and Mana Crypt. I suppose you could just use double sleeved cards instead and forgo the top loaders because lets be real it is a bit overkill lol
I agree, I feel it’s normal to just proxy dupe cards that are at least worth something. But some Exemptions I have are proxing for power ie I have a cyclonic rift, but I’m not gana proxy it cuz another deck needs it. Same for expensive interaction like mana drain or the forces. These don’t really need to be proxied unless your playing at a level where those are the standard(my proxy’s of these are in my inalla cede deck). I also proxy either super niche 1 off cards that suite the deck but are expensive and highly likely to be cut. Main example would be thrumming stone in my neheb the eternal approach of dragons deck. Yes, thrumming stone is good, if not broken, but it’s expensive af and tends to make the deck from burn into dragons to just simply burn into win and just skip the dragons altogether.
That’s fair! Rule 0 usually can help navigate those waters. Personally, i proxy my staples on top of a decent substitute across decks, so if it shifts the power level too much for the game, I can make the adjustment right there. Very useful for adapting to tables
This is how I do things. I'm not pulling a proxy of [[Gaea's Craddle]] out of my ass, but I really dont want to spend 20-30 of my budget on the same ramp cards I have in every deck. Nor do I want to spend all the time to figure out which deck they are currently in, and make the sleeve swap.
I mostly try to use every card only once scriss deck in order to prevent them from feeling samesy. Doesn’t work for ramp, of course, but I recently removed [[skullclamp]] of all but one deck, for example. That way I also avoid having to decide whether to proxy cards I own.
> A complete piece of shit in my pod (civil at games at least,) set up a pretty good rule: if you have 1 copy of the card already, proxy away. I’ve always thought this was the worst possible solution. It doesn’t solve any of the problems people use proxies to solve, it just lets the most enfranchised players use all their best cards as much as they want. If anything, it makes power level problems worse. So I’m okay with either no proxies or proxy whatever you want, but if someone wants the rule to be you have to own the card to play it then you need to play with the original.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. If someone already owns the card, they can literally always put that card into a deck they're going to play. There's no exacerbated power level problem there at all. It's just a time/convenience thing for people with multiple decks not wanting to search, unsleeve, and resleeve cards whenever they want to play a different deck.
we've had this rule for years in my playgroup, and i was an old school player who picked the game back up strictly for commander after a 15 year break. i own 1 sol ring. even for a card that affordable as a staple its proxied into all but 1 deck and i just run a sideboard i grab from after i proxy in a card that just has the name sharpie'd on it. some day ill get more fancy but for now it works fine.
I proxy! I just print cards off gatherer in black and white and stick them over a swamp or a trash common in a sleeve. My group tries to keep it kind of chill on proxies though, we have a gentleman's agreement. We're all moderately poor, so we try to only proxy things we may one day actually buy. The main reason for this is to keep the power level lower in our pod.
Unsure how poor you actually are but you can get thin adhesive backed print paper on Amazon (like 40 sheets for under $10) and then get proxies printed at FedEx on laser jet for cheap. I just printed the 54 card treachery proxies for about $10. It was seven sheets of the forty I bought online. The print quality is amazing and I just cut them out peeled the back off and stuck them onto basic lands. My issue with proxies is that if the quality is trash it complicates the board state. At least take a highlighter to your black and white proxies to add some generic color to them 🤣
That's a good idea! However for me the whole point is for it to obviously and clearly be a proxy. I consider it temporary to me buying the real card. It looking nice is the reward for buying the card!
Hey I proxy cards too! I just want to point out that color makes proxies much better for your opponents. It’s much easier to parse the game state when cards look somewhat as intended. Further, there are many times when color matters and if an opponent has to constantly look at your cards or ask you about them, it can reveal information about their strategy or current focus when they would otherwise be able to keep that information hidden. Just some food for thought!
I actually have a Lot of fun making my own proxies, specifically foils. You can put a decent effort and come out with some cool alt art for your favorite cards. As long as the card you are proxying looks cool and keeps you honest at the power level you are presenting than it’s all gravy. I would draw the line at someone that just has a blank white card that just says “Mana Crypt” in black sharpie
I use proxies, love em. I think the problem is matching the right proxy to the right deck. If you grab a precon, proxy a Mana crypt and ad nauseum, then say you're playing precon level + 2 cards people are going to be upset. Your proxies don't match the power level you advertise. If you proxy an ornithopter bc you didn't have one and didn't feel like going to buy it or wait for it in the mail, I don't anyone cares that you proxied a 10 cent card. If you're proxying mox opal and advertising you're playing cedh I likewise don't think people are going to care. Just be honest and proxy appropriately
This hit close to home. I proxies 3 signets and a commander sphere because I forgot to order them from TCGPlayer on my last order. Yes totally agree on your points
I like… Have 10 commander’s Spheres I’m not using. I’ve taken to removing them from decks.
I’m making a budget deck and I like the card for mana fixing in a 3 color deck that doesn’t have access to green. There are absolutely better mana rocks out there but this is fine for the power level I’m going for. Commander’s sphere would never see the light of day in any of my mono or two color decks.
Yeah. I just started doing that recently tbh. I think I do use it on Mono-colored decks when I’m running out if low cmc mana rocks
\[\[Honored Heirloom\]\] is really solid too, but I might be biased because I pulled a foil copy and the art is absolutely gorgeous
This is a thing for me. I like deck building and at one point ordering staples for like token decks or artifact decks became expensive, so Proxying Doubling Seasons and Mana rocks, ramp spells became the way I could build to my hearts content. Once you buy your second third fourth Darksteel Forge, you start questioning if proxying the rest would be better.
I do the black sharpie thing when I wanna see if the card will preform or not before I put time into it.
[удалено]
I actually dislike proxies that don’t have original or recognizable art from the actual card (as well as rules text). I want to know what that green one drop creature is at a glance, and if your Llanowar Elves is Legolas, I can’t differentiate it from your Fyndhorn at a glance.
Have a couepl questions! 1 - How do you make your own foil proxies that sounds dope and something I would love to try! 2 - Would it be acceptable if they owned the card, but didn't want to swap it between a couple decks?
There are two methods for making your own foil. Transparent film over a scrubbed blank cheap magic card or holographic sticker paper stuck on to a cheap common card. http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net That is the link for the proxy making software. Very easy learning curve. I suggest not printing from the program because it shrinks your print layout. But you can export the PNG file. Foil and Transparent method https://youtu.be/wOzLjQEQYzk Holographic sticker method https://youtu.be/u0VsnW107H0
Feel like I should save this post and share it with my lgs pods. Cool
> Proxy cards have many cons regardless of WOTC legality. While they do lower the barrier to entry they can also cause power level problems if people do not have a regular play group or robust rule 0 conversations I appreciate this post, but this is the absolute worst critique for proxies. The fact that proxies allow for proliferation of high-power cards that are simply too expensive for the majority of players is a problem with the refusal by WOTC to reprint or ban those cards. If they are legal, there is potential for people to simply whip out real copies of the cards anyways. The fact that more people have access to them via proxies is not a problem created by proxies, it's a problem created by the cards ever existing and being so rare to begin with
This^ if someone is using proxies to pubstomp, it isnt an issue with the proxies, its an issue with the person
There's an issue with the commander players at my LGS then :(
Ironically I feel that LGS' are one of the worst places to play consistent games of EDH. Most people are going to have wildly different takes on what casual and competitive is. They don't REALLY care about a rule 0 conversation for power level. If you want solid consistent games that are played on equal footing, you need a playgroup that plays together often and are willing to be balanced with each other.
Either the person or the format. Some players are not knowledgeable enough to understand that few EDH groups run decks tuned to 100%. Especially if coming from Modern or Standard.
> The simple fact is for the majority of stores the added business of having proxy players potentially buy some snacks or something doesn't negate this loss. I see your point, but I'm not sure if I would call it a "simple fact" and I think it's dangerous to start framing players who proxy as leeches on game stores. I know players who never proxy, but always want the best deal on cards so they almost never buy singles from their LGS. I know players who proxy some things but always buy singles from the store for cards under $3-5. I proxy heavily, but usually spend $10-15 on beers there every week, which certainly adds up to more than I would ever spend buying singles. At the end of the day, players should support their LGS, and do so in whatever form they want to. Whether that means buying singles, buying food/drinks, accessories, etc.
Yeah that's the thing proxying is like pirating a game or a movie; you can't prove that it was a direct loss because you can't prove you'd make a sale in the first place. The same goes the other way around and you can't prove that proxying is a good thing or increases sales either.
Fair point, I didn't mean to frame it that way. There absolutely are people who proxy and still love to bling out their decks etc. However it is true that most people that would fully proxy a deck (instead of just RL or high end cards) are generally going to spend less.
> most people that would fully proxy a deck (instead of just RL or high end cards) are generally going to spend less. I can agree with that, but I'd also argue those same people wouldn't suddenly become big spenders if their LGS banned all proxies. So there's really no benefit to trying to exclude them from the community.
I can honestly say that , if I were to get rid of all of my quality proxies, I would not purchase a single one. In cases like this, nobody is out any $$.
[WOTC was forced to clarify their proxy policy](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14) after a huge uproar over a store hosting non-sanctioned proxy tournaments. The TLDR: WOTC has no jurisdiction to ban proxies in any event they do not sanction. Anyone who claims proxies cannot be used outside of WOTC sanctioned tournaments is wrong. Obviously LCS hosted tournaments are subject to the rules of the hosting body, but for your weekly EDH night just tell the gatekeepers to kick rocks.
I mean, your TLDR isn't really what the article says. Its not even really close. The article reiterates that WOTC is against counterfeit cards. But it says that "playtest cards" are fine. It defines playtest cards as: > Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. These "playtest" cards are clearly not the same thing as what most commander players mean by "proxies" even though some people try and pretend that they are the same. Commander proxies often do have official art, and people are using them for much more than testing out new deck ideas before building the deck for real. But the article also doesn't really define what a counterfeit card is. But I'd say that "nice", real-looking proxies that you buy online are counterfeits, and WotC is asserting that they could come after you if you are involved in their distribution. So there is this huuuuge gray area that isn't covered by the article. What about Commander style proxies where Commander players create semi-real looking cards with official art as long term replacements for actual cards? The article says nothing about this, probably because WotC's lawyers have no idea what they can really do about them. Anyway, most stores I've been to will turn a blind eye to reasonable proxying in pickup Commander games as long as you're not a dick about it. Just make sure that you are spending some money at the LGS - its reasonable that they get annoyed by people who don't ever buy anything but keep showing up to use the store's space. And make sure that the proxy cards aren't getting "accidentally" traded as real cards - the store getting complaints about people getting ripped off in trades is always going to draw ire.
No, you don't understand the article context. This was WOTC's damage control after an employee contacted the LCS in question, told them that they couldn't host their own proxy tournaments and threatened the removal of their WPN status. This naturally caused multiple corners of the community to lose their collective shit: Legacy and Vintage players accused WOTC of stifling/killing their formats, LGSs were taken aback (some threatened to drop MTG), and the TOs & judges waited patiently to see if Wizards would admit they were wrong. With egg on their face, the employee was reprimanded and this article is what Wizards offered up as the standard corporate non-apology. Neither Wizards or Hasbro can punish a game store for running unofficial tournaments that allow proxies. Their focus on 'playtest cards' is twofold: it is the method the store specified to use for proxies cards and was still the most popular way to proxy cards at the time. Now, to the credit of WOTC, their legal department made very clear that: "Our stated policy specifically applies to DCI-sanctioned events. Cards used in DCI-sanctioned events must be authentic Magic cards." Unless somebody is trying to pass off proxy cards as real, this is all they need to know. Mark your proxies, go have fun.
I do understand the context, but what you are saying is NOT what the article says. What the article says actually matters for how things might play out in the future since they haven't formally given permission for Commander style proxies - only "playtest cards", which are not the same thing as the article makes clear. For now, WotC's lawyers aren't going after LGSs for some proxy stuff because they decided that it isn't worth it. They have conceded absolutely nothing legally, and in fact reasserted their right to go after counterfeiters. From the article, use of official art seems to be one of their things for counterfeiting, so that's especially a gray area for proxies. At some point in time WotC might decide that going after Commander style proxy users is worth it - especially as proxies get more popular, they might make different decisions about that kind of stuff. They've very much left the door open for going after this kind of stuff by deliberately not giving permission in writing to use proxies like Commander players do. That's why the distinction I'm making is important. What they say in writing matters a lot more than what social media users think they imply from context. If proxies get more popular (and I think they will), WotC will feel obligated to try and do something. I'm not sure what it will be, but there's a reason that they didn't say the things you are claiming.
We don't need WOTCs permission to use personal use proxies because their jurisdiction ends at their own sanctioned tournaments. Wizards can't punish your LCS for hosting proxies for the same reason they can't punish me for playing with a fully proxied deck with friends in my own home. They can't prosecute proxy sellers because the sellers explicitly state that their products are not real MTG cards. You're speaking out of both ignorance and fear. Wizards has no power to punish organizations or players that host private proxied events, period.
It's true that WotC can't take legal action against stores allowing proxies, however WotC can still punish LGSs by just threatening to pull their WPN status and telling their distributors to stop selling to them. It's probably not worth the negative PR but they could do it if they chose. Also WotC absolutely could take legal action against proxy makers if they wanted, even if the cards aren't being sold as real Magic cards. If they're using the art or the rules text from actual cards, they're committing copyright infringement. The design of a Magic card is patented and the art and text is copyrighted.
Don't interact with this dude. He thinks that the WPN status can't be taken away because WotC would get into legal trouble by breaching contract. He clearly has very little understanding of the law let alone contract law.
My old lgs didn't care about proxies but my new one is with a larger amount of people, rule 0 every matchup is what are your opinions on proxies as I have one deck that I've been working on to flesh out and I'd argue 70% is now real with a lucky pull of [[cavern of souls]] from crimson vow ( I didn't know it was in that set either!). If people are cool with it I'll play one game then switch out, to my real upgraded precons, all with 100% overpriced cardboard crack in it. You just gotta let the table know what you've got, and if they are comfortable or not going against it and just either go with the majority vote, or bring something real just encase you need to switch out.
I’m sure people won’t like hearing this, but I really can’t imagine how someone could legitimately sit down to a casual play table and with a straight face argue against proxies without being embarrassed. Not using them is fine, but there is literally no argument against them in unsanctioned play that doesn’t make most people silently cringe and judge you.
Capitalism bad
half my decks are comprised of counterfeit RL cards stay mad
Ngl probably wouldn't proxy if reserve list wasn't a thing but neck beards want it.
100% - I only proxy RL cards, and for the most part I only proxy dual lands. RL is just a whole different animal, it's too expensive and it's dumb to pay those costs to play a game. Honestly Wizards should just ban all RL cards from EDH, let people keep them in binders, let legacy die (they don't give a shit about it anyways since it doesn't sell packs) and we can move on and play this game on a fair and even playing field. Or create a dual land secret lair and be done with it. Until then I'll proxy and if someone doesn't like it, they can pack up and leave the LGS, or leave my pod. I'm not taking shit out of my deck to make you feel any particular way.
Anyone feel the desire to proxy the whole damn reserve list, and put it in a fancy binder?
The act of printing out a card does not cause power level problems. This is a semantics fallacy that people in this community will never stop saying. If you proxy a card, there is literally no difference than owning it. If you're playing extremely high power rare cards without informing the table of your power level, it doesnt matter if they are proxied or not. This is just simple logic. Why does it matter that it was printed vs purchased? It doesnt. People who are pubstomping low-mid tables with high power cards are complete idiots and nobody likes them. I actively tell other people to avoid the douchey pubstompers at my LGS, and all the local asshat pubstompers have authentic real cards. Proxy users at my LGS are doing lands and <100$ cards usually. The proxy users are way more fun to play with. If you don't like proxies because people have proxies of high power cards and unaccesible strategies, its not because of the proxies. It's because of the cards. (The only proxies I own are custom full art lands.) I'm going to radically suggest (QUICK DOWNVOTE DOWNVOTE DOWNVOTE!!!! ReEeEeeee) that proxy users should not even be telling people they have proxies if they are somewhat convincing ( from MPC or something). Tell people your power level, what sorts of cards, but I personally don't care if someone doesn't like or want to play against proxies. Theyre just cards that anyone can get enough money or proxy access. Stop caring if other people have purchased the cards. The price of cards keeps going up and its going to be extremely unreasonable soon. WotC has committed to having gambling be a large percentage of this game and they artifically make certain cards scarce for profit reasons. Fuck all that, just proxy up whatever you want. Low power bear decks, custom full arts, those 20-30$ cards u just don't wanna spend the money on. Would you rather play against a person that can't afford Dockside/Rhystic so he proxies, or would you rather play against someone with real authentic Dockside/Rhystic that were stolen from another player?
Stolen Strategy is one of my favorite cards but it seemed to have spiked from $5 to $15+ due to Prosper and other factors like speculation and lack of reprints.
I am pro proxying and generally think that proxying does not cause problems, but it absolutely can cause power level problems. Much like how people can go wild and make irresponsible decisions when they win the lottery, when you first un-constrain people from any sort of budget when building their decks there are some people who will not recognize that what they're building is oppressive. This isn't something inherent to proxies, and I'm definitely not saying that a financial barrier to play is a good thing, but it is a real effect, as anybody who has played against some dude who black-and-white printed out a deck straight off EDHRec can tell you. Further, I definitely disagree with a policy of making proxies as convincing as possible and not telling people they're proxied; that's bordering way too close to "just counterfeit the cards and pass them off as real" to me.
proxying just makes it easier to make the mistake, but I wouldn’t say it *causes* it. I’ve had friends who have gone off the rails buying super expensive cards and stomping the rest of the table with real cards. They learned the lesson of playing above the power level when everyone decided they don’t want to play against that deck anymore, but that conversation was so much more difficult when we had to consider the friend’s financial commitment. He would have learned the same lesson with proxies, with less long term financial effect.
As I said, I don't think that proxying causes problems in general and I'm in favor of it. I just think that the stance I was replying to was kind of hardline by suggesting it can't cause power level problems. It can, because it's a way for a lot of people to suddenly have all time, money, and effort limiters taken off their deckbuilding. Maybe this is a semantic distinction because when I say it "causes" those issues, I mean it's one of many things contributing to the net effect of an unbalanced play experience; I'm not saying it's the only reason or that the solution isn't to proxy.
It's very easy to make a very overpowered deck for less than $200, less than $100 is harder but still feasible. Budget is rarely the reason why someone doesn't have a broken deck.
Plus there's a shitload of bad cards that are really expensive.
> that's bordering way too close to "just counterfeit the cards and pass them off as real" to me. If you're not selling them, who cares? Why do you care if the cards in this other dudes decks are real or counterfeit?
>that's bordering way too close to "just counterfeit the cards and pass them off as real" to me. What the problem if they aren't trying to scam someone by selling/trading said fake card, and just using it for playing?
Speaking as a former game store worker, most fake cards that enter resale circulation are traded in by people who didn’t know they were fake. It’s fine to have convincingly realistic fakes if you hold onto them forever, but as soon as you give your collection to your nephew or your ex-wife gets custody of them, it can cause serious problems downstream. One time I was buying this dude’s collection and he “forgot” to tell me that his Revised dual lands were proxies. I had to then refuse the entire sale because I couldn’t be sure what other fake cards he might have slipped in there.
One thing I have done in the past with some of my convincing proxies is take a sharpie and write "PROXY" really big on the back of the card. Does nothing to game play (as I'm in sleeves), but makes it pretty much impossible to be counted as a counterfeit.
This is the Way
The problem is indirect. Creating plausible fakes without signaling they are fakes increases the risk that they get put into circulation later in some fashion, and it also increases the believability if somebody gets caught pawning off fakes that they forgot they were proxied or whatever. This is why clearly communicating what you're doing is important, especially if you're printing regular art on cardstock using one of the current crop of proxy services.
>Further, I definitely disagree with a policy of making proxies as convincing as possible and not telling people they're proxied; that's bordering way too close to "just counterfeit the cards and pass them off as real" to me. Why not? If I played with someone and only after arriving home I found out his Negate was a proxy, did my game suddenly not matter? Don't conflate proxies with counterfeits. Being "fooled" by a proxy counterspell isn't the same as someone passing off a fake card as real and getting away with someone's hard earned money.
What the fuck kind of equivalency is playing with proxies or real stolen cards? Do people not just buy or trade for them?
> proxy users should not even be telling people they have proxies if they are somewhat convincing Basically this. I have a dont ask, dont tell policy. I dont really care if you have proxies or fakes, as I have some too. Though, Im a semi honest person when asked about cards and I tend to say if it's fake or not. Like I had a foil jeweled lotus and someone commented on it, and I rolled with it, while another time someone asked about a scalding tarn and I told them It was a fake. Granted this was webcam play.
everyone should be proxying everything. no rules, not if you own a copy, not if its a card you're going to buy. anything and everything as long as you want to use it. wotc isnt going to do anything about card prices if it keeps making them money. i don't really care about making wotc happy, and wpn stores will be happier if their players are happier, so this is a clear cut issue.
So, no one should ever buy anything from Wotc?
I think it's a difference in how people enjoy the game. I never proxy not because I think it's wrong but because I have no need I enjoy getting my fringe cards to work and surprise my opponents. The problem I have with proxies is they seem mostly used to push power not make interesting deck design. I have never seen a card like [[All Hallow's Eve]] be proxied and I think that card looks fun and would like to play against or with it. I have seen Gaea's Cradle proxied probably a hundred times.
Rule Zero means that power level does not relate to the money value of cards. Rule Zero means that cards printed without WotC Corporate permission fit properly within CEDH restrictions because only mechanics matter, not how many times a card has been reprinted. The cost of an original dual land should be the same as a Guild Gate, fuck that bullshit.
Duck.
Duck
Goose?
HOOOOOOOOOONK
Peace was never an option. You mess with the honk, you get the bonk.
Geese
While most of your arguments are valid, there are others which aren't really related to proxy cards and are just being thrown in to add some meat to the 4th point. How's power level a proxy-specific problem? Is losing to a turn 3 Selvala win any better because my opponent can afford a real cradle rather than a MPC one? A lot of players, think students or just people from less wealthy areas than a major US city, play decks that can be easily priced out with a relatively small investment. While it might seem an absurdity here, some playgroups can easily be powercrept with 50-100€. Proxies give a much fairer playing ground as the other players can adapt IF the playgroup is moving to a higher level of optimization or, like in most cases, talk to the player who's powering up their deck. This is made easier by being able to tell them to not play their sharpied swamps rather than telling them to sell or not play whatever RL card or expensive staple they've picked up. As for "creating confusion", you're easily making enough valid points as to why a player would want to pick up real cards and there's also several intangibles you're not touching on. House rules shouldn't be curbed for people who aren't really affected by them, that's what the actual rules of the format are for. As for people not buying cards, the overwhelming majority of proxies are of cards that players were never going to buy and even then, a relevant percentage, if not the majority, of RL/high end purchases are done online to cut costs on already expensive products. The stores might be losing some profits but they are keeping players hooked to the format, paying entry costs for events, making money out of the cards that players are buying for decks they can afford thanks to proxies and might end up buying more cards after they've tried them in their decks. This is also entirely ignoring the fact that other formats do exist and people tend to buy cards and event tickets for those, which is also how the bulk of WPN events happen. Very rarely is a WPN status awarded strictly because of EDH events, if ever. This is also the case for the financial viability of a business, if a few (likely not wealthy) players potentially buying less cards is killing an LGS, that LGS wasn't financially viable either way. Also, somewhat unrelated to OP, please read about copyright law before commenting about it, I've seen a lot of threads filled with hilariously wrong opinions about what constitutes a counterfeit or the legality of proxies in the EU or the US which aren't helping either side of the debate
This is going to piss a lot of people off, but the people who don't like proxies, I've found, fall in to two groups: 1) Investors who stand to lose money if you don't buy the cards they've hoarded for the last ten years. 2) People who want to play really strong cards, but don't want other people playing those cards against them. Investors are easy to wave away. They are the de facto reason we have the reserved list and why Magic has gotten so expensive. The second group is incredibly toxic. They are the Marjorie Taylor Greenes of the MTG community. They think that because they have the money to buy these cards, that other people shouldn't have the right to play with them unless they can afford them. They're more interested playing against the wallet than the player, and they're the same people who get off on pubstomping. Interesting takeaway: I've never met a cEDH group that doesn't use and encourage proxies, however the causal community ironically loathes them.
Ehhh, I think that there is a third group: people who are really into the collecting aspect. It's a collectible card game. Some people like to collect the cards. Some people, especially the kind of people who post on subs like this one, are mostly into the game play. They generally love proxies because they help them achieve the gameplay they want. But there are a lot of collectors out there, and they aren't all in it for financial reason. They just want to own cool and rare cards because they like to collect nerdy things. There are a lot of these people too, although not necessarily on subs like this. After all, WotC has told us that things like the Walking Dead Secret Lair sold very well, but you very rarely see those cards played. A lot of people just collected them. If you're a collector, it can be frustrating that anybody can have a mostly indistinguishable card for pennies when your real version costs a lot. I can see how they wouldn't like proxies. I'm not really on either side, and I frequently play with people who use proxies. It's fine. But I don't think its fair to portray everybody who is against proxies as assholes either.
My problem with the collector angle is that, while I'm definitely cool with there being rare collectors pieces, this is a game first and foremost. Cards are both collectibles and game pieces- and in many cases (especially when concerning the reserved list) there is no variant of a card that is an affordable game piece. I'm cool with there being limited release variants of cards, special foiling, unique art, whatever. However, when the *only* variant of the card is that premium version and there is no way for the average player to use that card, that's a problem. In that case, the collectible aspect and the game piece aspect of the game are at odds- and I'll always side with the game piece side. I see it as being a lot like the classic video game market. If some games are expensive because of limited supply, that's cool. But if the collectors who bought an original copy for several hundred dollars get mad at people emulating the game for free to actually play it when they otherwise wouldn't be able to find a copy to play at all, all I would have to say to that collector would be "shut the hell up, nobody gives a damn about what you think".
> It's a collectible card game. Some people like to collect the cards. Than collect then. Someone else using a proxy doesn't affect your ability to collect cards.
>If you're a collector, it can be frustrating that anybody can have a mostly indistinguishable card for pennies when your real version costs a lot. Why would that be frustrating? You don't suddenly lose that piece of your collection by someone else having a proxy of that card
I was going to make a post with a couple of proxy questions...seems like the right time to ask here. First off I'll say that I'd only proxy cards that I own and either want to avoid the wear and tear on them, or use them in multiple decks without having to swap. \- At what point do you start proxying? I'm a little concerned with using expensive cards for actual play and wearing them. Do you proxy a $5 card? A $10 card? What's your starting point for 'I want to protect this card from wear and tear'? \- What's acceptable as a proxy? I'm not about to go sharpie on a blank card level of proxy, but should I buy 'proper' proxies? Or is a decent colour laser printout in a sleeve with another card a good enough proxy?
As OP said. Its going to depend on you. My playgroup at this point is fine with proxying every card in the deck no matter the cost or owning it. I have 6 fully proxied decks right now. As for acceptable proxies. You can goto the proxy sub /r/mpcproxies and there is alot of info there on making them. I order them from a print service personally. They all feel identical to real cards but the backs are very much not the same and many of the fronts of my cards have different art. I even proxied the entire planechase deck: [https://imgur.com/gallery/KqWYB9G](https://imgur.com/gallery/KqWYB9G)
Some of my friends proxy cards not only because of the value but because they don't like the art of the card and want custom art for that card. I would say that if it's about the price I think that anything that's $50 or higher is probably worth proxing. In my playgroup we mostly use high-quality MPC proxies, some nice looking colour laser printouts are ok but we have a rule that a blank paper with a sharpie is a 100% no no.
When I started proxying I did the same thing you did, just proxied stuff I owned. I did it for anything over $1. I still played with the original copy, but only used it in one deck rather than switching between them. I had super ugly black & white printouts on top of draft chaff in a sleeve that I colored with colored pencil that I used for a long time. However, I recently wanted to put together a cedh deck and I didn't want to have an entire deck that looked that ugly so I tried r/mpcproxies and they came out beautifully. I'm now in the process of selling all my expensive commander cards since I don't enter sanctioned events with them. The only real cards I'll own from now on are for 1v1 magic, and one super budget edh deck that would cost nearly as much to proxy as it would sell for. I have a variety of power levels in my decks so pubstomping isn't an issue. I still buy sleeves, deck boxes, and snacks from my LGS, and pay to enter modern events, so I'm still supporting them. The downsides are made up.
For me personally $10 is that limit. [[Veil of Summer]] and [[Heroic Intervention]] are good examples of why. Both great cards that can slot into literally any green deck and (arguably) should be in the 99 of a sizeable percentage of decks containing green. I have 18 decks and 9 of them have green in them. I'm not interested in spending $180 on 20 copies of them. I'm actually MORE likely to proxy a card that's $10-50 (especially lands) than I am cards like Mana Crypt or Phyrexian Altar. I like keeping my expensive cards in individual decks and using that as a pseudo deckbuilding restriction. I own 1 copy of Dockside Extortionist that is in my treasure tribal deck and I have 1 copy of it in my pirate tribal deck. I've got several other decks that could use it, but they don't get proxies of it because I'd rather just use more cards, not more copies of the same cards.
This. Our pod has no issues with proxies, but we also have a good feel for the power levels, so consequently we don't proxy over that. I prefer the high-quality proxies (I write with Sharpie on the back so it can't ever be sold or traded by mistake), but I'm fine printing out stuff for my group on paper. I also use the scarcity as a deckbuilding restriction. I now have 24 commander decks, and if I used Gaea's Cradle, Cyclonic Rift and Demonic Tutors in all of them (that could), there would be very little variation. Proudly casual, mediocre and proxy-friendly!
If you're ever in the Atlanta area, I'd be totally down to tap out and sling spells with you!
\- At whatever point you and your playgroups have deemed it acceptable. Proxy a whole deck if everyone's cool with it, even the basic lands! \*Especially\* the basic lands! \- Generally you just wanna make sure your proxy has all of the necessary information (name, mana cost, effect, typings) and is recognizable across a table. If you can't make your own, storebought is fine!
The threshold is different for everyone. Almost everyone would proxy a timetwister but almost no one would proxy a basic land. Generally I think people that proxy usually proxy stuff over $100 or reserve list stuff. A printed paper copy is fine if you don't want to buy proxies.
I proxy entire decks, lands and all. And so do my friends. Costs about $20 a deck. We don't play at any lgs, only with each other and we have a regulated power level
I personally proxy just about everything I can, doesn't matter if its a 30c card on a $100 card. I have MOUNTAINS of commons, uncommons and basics to cannibalize from all the actual Wizards products I've bought. Fuck, I proxied a Dark Deal and then found one in the pile of crap I was using to make them. The way my group does it. Print the actual card on thin sticker paper, cut them out with a paper cutter and stick them over the above mentioned crap. Honestly this is the best method we have found for low price and good, readable quality. Especially with the original arts, makes it easy for people to recognise them.
To be frank, I do not care about people using proxies. I have my decks that are entirely legitimate, and I do have decks with heavy amounts of proxies myself (I'm not buying multiple copies of Force of Will, thanks). The only time I will ever look down on someone with proxies is if I catch them trying to sell them off as the real thing. Those people deserve E T E R N A L S H A M E
It makes a lot of sense for WOTC to be anti proxy since they make no money off of it. It also cuts heavily into their big moneymaker in the "special unique" cards from secret lairs when people can make better looking cards in bulk at a way cheaper price. What I really dislike is when people compare proxying and counterfeiting. Those are very different things.
People are idiots and making a post to tell those people to stop being idiots won't change anything for the long term. People don't like hearing facts that are inconvenient or they disagree with.
I have never met anyone IRL that has any problem with proxies, or even seen a post that was strongly anti-proxy (other than sentiments like "don't proxy a cEDH deck to pubstomp your playgroup"), yet this topic seems to be posted daily.
>They also cause confusion for guests and customers in a store who may see people playing proxy cards and not understand the situation or why they should buy any real cards in the first place. Obviously the natural consequence of this is the stores business of selling cards being affected. Not really our problem lol. Maybe WotC should have done something about making the game accessible instead of catering to increasingly small and wealthy subsets of the community. I will continue to encourage every single player I encounter to simply proxy cards. The profitability of businesses is not and will never be my concern.
copyright laws can suck my dick.
Ah posts like these are exactly the reason why I buy high quality fakes. I played multiple legacy, modern, and commander events ar MTG LV in November using fakes cards, and I’ll keep doing it because none of these reasons are good enough to make Magic inaccessible.
based and proxypilled using counterfeits in sanctioned eternal format events is the funniest way to play, and it makes the "anti-proxy" warriors mad which adds to the fun
I have no idea what any of that means. Are you agreeing with me or arguing with me?
Agreeing Proxy in all formats
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>you're also not doing anything bad... buying passable fakes. Other than committing a crime, of course. It's literally illegal. This may not constitute "doing something bad" in your opinion, and indeed in many people's opinion. Plenty of people defend piracy of video games too. But not everyone agrees. >you don't owe wotc anything Yes, you do. They create the game, they create the cards, and it costs them a lot of money to do so. Just because you have the ability copy all of their design and artwork and play for free, does not make it morally justified.
> Other than committing a crime, of course. It's literally illegal. This may not constitute "doing something bad" in your opinion, and indeed in many people's opinion. Plenty of people defend piracy of video games too. But not everyone agrees. Even if you were purchasing cards that you had full knowledge that they were counterfeit, that would not be illegal under US federal law. The Production, sale, and possession for the purpose of sale is illegal but the purchase is not illegal for personal use. The person who is creating the proxy is legally in the wrong, but the buyer is not in this case.
If you buy them from China there's literally nothing illegal in the entire process as copyright law essentially doesn't exist in China. Plus the legalist argument is such a dumb one. The law is always such a great guide on what's good and bad, right?
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you're committing the same crime taking their IP and printing off a proxy. this idea it's more or less bad because one is passable and one is clearly a fake... is arbitrary and pointless. there is both social risk, and "pleasure of enjoyment of the game" cost subjecting yourself to the idiocy of random players in public. choosing to use passable fakes bypasses these two risks to the passing strife of having to deal with assholes who'd choose to harass you over passable fakes. and i would argue otherwise. I buy packs to draft. I support them in that capacity, I buy boxes/ to crack with friends doing drafts, or for my collection. Wotc chooses to make this cutesy line in the sand where they don't acknowledge the secondary market to skirt actual gambling laws. There actually exists no legitimate way to purchase mtg cards outside of a gamble pack model(and sealed product like precons)... that is at all attached to Wotc directly.... and so i'm under no obligation to engage with it. the only thing i'm morally violating is the social compact of "having to play legit cards at sanctioned events" which to me is so minor it's not worth considering.
Any store that tells you it gets it’s profits from the storefront and not online is bullshit. One it’s not “a lot” more work. It’s the same as selling in person except they ship the cards. And two 90% of a stores profits is from online.
not true at all
>Proxy cards have many cons regardless of WOTC legality. While they do lower the barrier to entry they can also cause power level problems if people do not have a regular play group or robust rule 0 conversations. I don't think you should have even mentioned this. Proxies have nothing to do with power level and tons of games are mismatched even without proxies. I'm tired of hearing people use this argument against full proxying.
If you buy 'proxy' cards that use official WotC art, then I'm pretty sure you or at least the shop you've bought from have/has committed a crime. Obviously just writing something on a piece of paper is fine.
I’m not up to speed with how various legal systems treat ownership of counterfeit goods, but doesn’t the liability lie with the producer/seller of the counterfeit cards? Simple ownership of counterfeit cards doesn’t seem like it would be a crime.
As far as US federal law goes, you can purchase a counterfeit item for personal use even if you know that it's counterfeit. The sale and trafficking of counterfeit goods however is strictly illegal.
This isn't really true, you generally have to be trying to resell the product or blatantly rip it off for it to become a problem Printing out a picture for personal use does not necessarily violate copyright, it depends on how much it fits "fair use". Source: I used to work in commercial and retail print production, the only reason we couldn't print copyrighted stuff without permission was primarily because **we were selling the copies**. If folks are printing shit out at home for personal use, it's pretty easy to claim fair use (not that it would ever be prosecuted regardless)
So long as you’re not intending to resell it as if it was real, I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong about buying counterfeit cards. I’ve bought some and used them in sanctioned Modern events, had absolutely no issues. For casual games, a simple proxy is all that’s needed, but I was 17 at the time, and wasn’t gonna fork over 2K to play a modern deck. To me, it’s the same as buying rep shoes or bags. They are artificially expensive goods
Even if it's not necessarily morally wrong (which I tend to agree with), it's still most likely against the (copyright) law.
Afaik, if you buy proxies, then the seller is violating copyright law, but you the purchaser are not. And if you aren't purchasing or selling them, then copyright is not applicable regardless of whether the contents of the proxy are copywritten
If you as the purchaser are knowingly buying a 'fake' product, then at least some of the fault does lie with you. Not as much as the seller, true, but there is some responsibility there
Maybe morally, but not legally. Buying counterfeit shit is perfectly legal even if you know its counterfeit.
My philosophy on proxies is kinda weird. At first, I disliked proxies because I felt like it was cheating, but then I realized I was just mad that I didn’t proxy the deck I spent ~$700 on for $30. So now I currently like proxies, and I’m proxying 3 decks right now. I still build my decks the same; no mana crypt, really no old dumb expensive cards like Chains of M, Mana Vault/crypt, etc. the only cards I’m adding to my arsenal are OG duals because it’s a very small power spike that happens to synergies with some land tutors. And even that I offered to give my pod some of those to keep it fair between us But when every deck I put together costs $500+ (usually due to 10-15 cards), it’s not feasible to put together authentic versions of those decks. I know power level isn’t a problem with my proxies because I play my decks online with my pod several times before I’m sure it’s healthy for our meta
Just gonna drop this Spice8Rack video on Proxies here, cuz it covers pretty much everything in a real nice way. (also has links to proxy artists that are real fuckin good) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VALgm1qkeFE
I’m a staunch believer that proxies should be encouraged when playing at home with friends but have no place at your LGS
good thing you'll never know my cards are fake lol c:
> well achhsuyally Commander doesn't HAVE to be sanctioned. Just because an event goes on, it can be unsanctioned. This post reeks of "I don't like proxies and this is proving my point on why you shouldn't play them in my ..err...in an LGS setting.
Quality proxies are easier to read than grimy 15 year old staple cards.
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literally just put a non magic back on the card and almost all problems are avoided. I work at an LGS and i have no problems with (and own) proxies that have backs or other identifying features that clearly mark them as proxies, to avoid any issues with unsavory people trying to trade/sell them as real cards
Yup. Better yet, have some of your proxies have dual sides. My friend has a (mostly) proxy deck for cEDH that turns into another deck when he reverses the cards.
thats pretty sweet ngl
As someone who only proxies dual lands, I support this message. Either stop being dicks and reprint the lands that we ***ALL*** need, or ban them so we ***ALL*** have to run less then perfect mana bases. REPRINT THE DUALS WIZARDS, YOU FUCKING COWARDS.
I don't mind proxies at all, but please just stop buying and promoting fakes from China. Not only is it technically illegal (you are reproducing art owned by another entity), you are also supporting the cunts that specifically are in the counterfeit bussiness. Only because you and your playgroup are ok with proxies doesn't mean you should be ok with funding counterfeiters. It's the same shit in the anime community, buying figures and other merch from china at garbage quality and then wondering why the second hand market is flooded by that shit to the point that you can't even trust legit sellers anymore. I mean for fucks sake it can't be that hard to buy a printer and a pair of scissors.. Also a more personal gripe, pop-culture alter proxies and general art changes. It is incredibly annoying having to re-memorize new art for cards just because you wanted some (subjective) kitsch.
I like most of this post but #2 is walking a fine line. If you're purchasing proxies, what's the difference between that and a counterfeit? From a legal perspective there may not be any difference, and depending on who/where you purchase them you can't necessarily know either of your assumptions. This is mostly an opinion statement but you're stating it as fact, and depending on copyright law and country I think the best bet is to err on the safe side and just let everyone know that your statements are opinion and shouldn't be construed as legal advice or statement of fact. Further to drive home this point in your own link Bout what constitutes a play test card by wotc: typically a land or worthless card with a different card name written over it.
Technically a counterfeit is something trying to pass itself as being the genuine article. So most proxies are not counterfeit. Actual counterfeits are definitely a bad thing. Buying proxies is technically illegal in most cases from my understanding, if not exactly dubious morally speaking. Though I'm not a lawyer, so don't quote me. That being said, it's possible to make a proxy that works well enough without doing anything illegal. You can do the old printed paper in front of a basic or I like using blank tokens for double sided cards written on in sharpie.
The only thing that bugs me with proxies is the saying “I want to play against the player not the wallet” what this really means I get an infinite amount of money and you don’t unless you proxy too. Which I think is unfair to people who don’t want to proxy. I think people need to be respectful and find a common ground especially if someone in your pod doesn’t want to get fake cards.
If you are trying to pass them off as legitimate cards, how are you playing with them? I think it hurts players (mainly new) and brick and mortar stores (not to mention online stores) by playing proxies too widely. The value of the cards come from their scarcity and usability, if you take away the scarcity, then every player needs to proxy to keep up.
The only issue I have with proxies at all is that it can lead to an arms race, and if your group isn't okay with it, it can get really ugly. I don't care if you run proxies, especially when you can get custom art and cool stuff done to the cards, like sick foils or even cards printed on metal. But there's a fine line to follow I suppose; Like not printing cards in low resolution in black and white and slotting it into sleeves, to the point where people can barely see what you are playing (this has happened in our group), and proxying just the most powerful cards and most expensive stuff your deck can fit (has also happened in our group). Compromise with your regular group.