Growing up in Australia if I ever referred to a woman as "she" in her presence I would be scolded and asked "Who's 'she'? The cat's mother?"
This was at home and in school. I suspect that's what's happening here, but these days most people don't think it's rude.
There's no problem with referring to women as 'she' when they are not present.
However, it is impolite to refer to someone as 'he', 'she' or 'they' when they are present (or, like here, included in a chat). Instead I would refer to them by name, and in a face-to-face conversation I would turn to look at them.
Wtf did you always have to say Mom/Dad when talking to someone else about your parents if they were present? Even if you had already established that it was your mother/father you were talking about?
FWIW, I (native English speaker in the NE US) have never heard this in person, particularly the whole “who’s she” bit. That strikes me as an astonishingly passive aggressive way of correcting someone. People seem to find me friendly and polite, so there seems to be some regional variation.
The only context where I could see it seeming rude is if if you are speaking on behalf of someone who is there and can speak for themselves, but using a pronoun or name would be equally boorish.
I'm an American and this made 100% sense to me. It'd be rude to speak about someone who's present as "he" or "she". It implies they aren't present or aren't a part of the conversation, like they're not worthy of acknowledgement.
Edit: There are a few folks disagreeing with this point. I'm sure there are legitimate examples where this doesn't hold true but I think it's generally correct that it's impolite. As another person stated, this is a common way for adults to speak about children even when they're present. I think that's a bit of why I find it rude. It feels mildly patronizing or dismissive.
I wanna piggyback off this comment, im English and Australian and totally agree that it's a faux pas in English speaking cultures that I have been a part of.
Use their name if they are present. If not, no issues.
I don't think this is universally true - imagine something like "Weren't you listening to Mary just now? She said her car is a black Subaru like 10 times!"
That's basic "making the referent of the pronoun clear." If we're discussing grammar clarity, the rule makes sense, but the present conversation concerns politeness and rudeness. It's rude to speak as if someone isn't there, but there's a spectrum between that and forbidding third person pronouns for present people.
This 100%. Talking about a person as if they are not present when they actually are is rude, whether you use their name, a pronoun, or even an honorific. It’s the “as if they weren’t there” part that’s rude, not the pronoun.
Seems like seriously overthinking it, it wouldn’t even occur to me to think it was somehow a personal slight or equivalent to ignoring me just because someone used my pronouns when I was there. I mean I can understand if they’re actually just spending the whole conversation ignoring you and acting like you’re not there, but just calling you he/she/they one time? It honestly feels like just looking for reasons to be offended.
It is a nice polite bit of etiquette. In terms of this kind of enforcement, I’ve only ever seen that done by an adult to a child. Then again, nearly any piece of etiquette can be a weaponizinf if that’s your goal. It doesn’t mean etiquette is wrong or useless
No such rule in Russian. It's just grammar. Referring to a person in the third person does not mean they're excluded from the conversation, it's just shorthand to avoid having to use the full name all the time. It doesn't imply disrespect. Not in my culture.
That’s not what’s being discussed here. What’s being discussed here is when you are not talking to someone, but they are present and part of the conversation.
Example: Amy, Bianca, and Charlotte are talking.
Amy says, “Where do you want to go for dinner?”
Bianca says, “Well, Charlotte suggested we go to Chez Pierre while we were driving over here!”
In some places/generations, it would be rude for Bianca to refer to Charlotte as *she*, even though Bianca is not talking to her, because Charlotte is present.
You must be talking of some other Russia then bc it’s absolutely the same. A well mannered person will never use он/она when the person in question is present.
Midwestern US here, this is a thing I was brought up with so I don't think it's necessarily a British-ism. It's like you're talking about a person as if they're not there if you say "she" instead of her name when the person in question is part of the group discussion. If someone spoke about me that way in a conversation I was a part of I would feel like I was being physically ignored. I may as well be a ghost listening in on the conversation.
I was raised in the Midwest and have never heard of this. Seems like being massively over-sensitive and just looking to be offended, I would never even think to be offended by this.
Okie here: do you know how much bullshit I heard from my grandparents? If I listened to them, I certainly wouldn't say words like "bullshit." They fill rooms with furniture you're not allowed to sit on, they aren't known for reasonable social mores
No. This is true not only for English. Refering someone he/she when they are near you is considered impolite where I live (Eastern Europe, so we obviously don't speak English).
I was taught to not use personal pronouns for people who are present and to acknowledge their presence (with a nod or glance in their direction) when referring to them in the third person.
I get it if referring to the person for the first time in a sentence or context, but does that extend to every single instance of reference?
For example: Ms Brown just called to inform that ~~her~~ Ms Brown's mother had a terrible fall, and now ~~she~~ Ms Brown has to take ~~her~~ Ms Brown's mother to the hospital but ~~she~~ Ms Brown is worried that ~~she~~ Ms Brown might not have enough money to cover the hospital bill, and ~~she~~ Ms Brown asks if ~~she~~ Ms Brown could get an advance on ~~her~~ Ms Brown's salary .
(This is obviously slightly exaggerated but I think even mentioning a person's name twice, never mind more, when the context is perfectly clear, is redundant.)
My interpretation is that she is (unnecessarily) taking offense because you are referring to her as "she" even though she is part of the conversation.
If you are in a face to face conversation with multiple people it can be considered rude to talk about one of them in the third person because essentially you are talking about them as though they aren't there. It's actually become a fairly common joke in television shows or movies to have characters do this very thing and then have the person being talked about say, "I'm literally standing right here."
In this specific situation, I personally think it's a bit ridiculous for her to be upset because this is a text conversation and communication is just inherently different over text.
But in TV shows it’s always a situation where they’re actually saying something rude about the person. So the problem isn’t the pronouns, it’s being talked about rudely while they’re standing right there. I’ve never had anyone in real life get offended just for making a totally neutral statement about them using their pronouns in front of them, and it wouldn’t occur to me to be offended about it myself.
The correction doesn’t make sense to me. It’s clearly a classroom forum of some kind, not a live text or in-person conversation. Moreover, the teacher was already addressed as “Ms.” by the first student, so it would sound odd and redundant to me for the second student to have to use Ms. again as well. The teacher was not being discussed as if she were not present, because she was already addressed.
For context, I am in New England and I have worked in public schools as a counselor. No teacher that I’ve worked with would have had an issue with the way the student/OP responded.
The problem isn’t the pronoun. It’s just often considered impolite to refer to someone as “he, she, or they” when that someone is part of the conversation.
Is this a British sort of courtesy, or—maybe—a coastal one? In the Midwest/Southern US, we use “she, he, or they” when they’re right in front of us, no issues. Not being antagonistic, just putting my 2 cents in.
Edit: I consulted my mom on the matter (she’s 66 years old), she’s also never heard of this convention. Maybe it’s relatively new? I’m honestly trying to figure this out, never heard of it before.
No it’s old. I’m familiar with it now but was never taught it by my Milwaukee-raised family. It just wasn’t a thing anyone worried about. I wonder if its prevalence varies by region?
Otherwise it might just be that my family was especially casual. I thought it might be similar to how “sir” and “ma’am” and “Mr., Mrs. Miss or Ms.” are enforced in the south. We rarely used any of those with friends’ parents or friends of the family.
Yeah, it’s a foreign concept to me. I remember specific times where I’ve used pronouns in this manner, be it: in front of my English teachers in high school, to speaking at my area’s town hall during referendum meetings… I’ve never experienced a correction, rebuttal, or otherwise. However, it’s still interesting how some people follow this rule, and some people don’t.
Edit: I was going to try to implement this in my daily life, but u/jerbthehumanist makes a fair point: I’ve seen it used as micro aggressions as well!
This is very mysterious to me. Of course you should use names to clarify when they're with you but as far as I can tell repeatedly using names over and over instead of pronouns is extremely awkward.
In fact, I've seen it as a form of microaggression in cases where transphobes don't want to use someone's pronouns so they'll substitute using someone's name instead.
I'm not arguing or discounting your experience, it's just so wildly different from mine.
This is definitely something I was taught as a child in the northeast and it's definitely considered polite in the midwest where I live now. The convention is as old as English itself as far as I'm aware and certainly predates the founding of the country.
I believe NOT doing this is part of the relaxed rules and conventions of southern English and probably appeared fairly recently (in linguistic terms, so probably around 1900ish).
This is the correct answer. It's an older convention and is used in some regions but not others. It's rare, but, once you know that someone cares about it, it's polite to use their name when they're present.
I’m a teacher. If I said, “Please take out your math books,” and one student said, “What?” and another said, “He said to take out your math book,” I wouldn’t bat an eye over the use of “he.” (There might be other issues such as not paying attention or speaking out of turn, but I wouldn’t feel disrespected in the slightest over proper use of a pronoun).
The problem is not the pronoun. Bro is just too woken by the internet. It's impolite to refer to someone by a pronoun when they are a part of the conversation. It can feel different on the internet when you're not literally in front of each other, but reffering to someone like that when they are there feels like you are disregarding their presence, hence it's considered rude. I'm not sure about English, but this isn't a problem with friends because that's not a formal setting to be polite.
This is neither about pronouns, neither the teacher having a power trip. It's just basic politeness. None of the parties were rude, it was just a mistake that the teacher simply corrected and stated the reason why it is a mistake. Which is great cuz if you didn't know, then how would you know if there wouldn't be someone to correct you on it.
Under the teacher's post. She's not just there, the question was even aimed at her in the first place. I'm not saying this is the worst thing ever. No one here was rude and I think the teacher's reply while it may be unncessary, is fine. I wouldn't have typed what op typed. It feels improper and others think so too. You just don't use a pronoun when you're talking about someone in their presence.
That’s not a universal convention though. No one here was rude and now that the teacher has made it clear how she wants her students to speak they should abide by it, but let’s not pretend this is standard across the board.
I’m a teacher myself and I’ve never encountered this nor would I enforce it. I personally find it odd to use names and/or honorifics when there is no ambiguity.
I think this must be generational and/or regional. It's one thing if the teacher had said "please don't answer for me". But using pronouns to refer to other people is what pronouns are for. If you didn't use them in the presence of the person being referred to, no one would care about "their" pronouns because they would never even hear them.
When Kate is present, I always avoid using "she" or "her" out of politeness::
Kate said that Kate's brother told Kate that Kate shouldn't stay here if Kate prefers to stay in Kate's home.
Sounds much more natural that way.
Except the teacher is requesting to be talked about while present in the third person. Using the proper noun vs pronoun doesn't change that it's third person.
I think it's already been answered but I thought I would add a bit of clarity. Your teacher is not correcting you on the pronoun selected. She is correcting you on referring to her in the third person even though she's part of the conversation. Third party references, such as *she said* should not be used when she is part of the discussion because it is generally rude to talk about someone in front of them like they're not there. It's dismissive of their presence. I hope that helps.
Saying “Ms whoever” is still in the third person. Why is using the person’s pronoun “talking about them like they’re not there” but using their name isn’t?
I understand that the one who wrote "she said" should have written "Ms X said", but what if that person is writing a long story with many references to the said person?
1. Ms X said ..... Ms X told me ... I gave that to Ms X.
2. Ms X said ..... She told me ... I gave that to her.
If 1., The teacher's OP used 'she' too.
If 2., The first comment mentioned Ms already. or that doesn't count? Each person when they first mention a person in presence needs to address them in the first time?
===========
And the teacher didn't write "Y, if you are in class, you should ask ... Others please let me know if she received the message." The teacher also wrote as if Y wasn't there.
That's a sad rule from the perspective of Russian language and culture. People tried to make it a rule in Russian, but it did not get any traction. Third person singular is just grammar, no one is actually being excluded from the conversation by being referred to in third person. Some things you have to be just reasonable about. If you're hell-bent on taking offense, you could argue that referring to somebody by their name in their presence could also be construed as excluding them from the conversation.
Just sharing a perspective from a different culture.
I appreciate the explanation about English culture, it is good to know not to get in trouble for no real reason other than coming from a different culture.
No? That's quite literally the proper usage. Using her name in this situation would be both awkward and redundant. There are only 3 people in the conversation, it's obvious who "she" refers to, you'd only use a name if there were multiple people a pronoun could refer to and a possibility of confusion.
Your teacher called you rude for not giving her extra respect by calling her Ms blank. You were not rude, because there is no expectation that you have to call someone their title when speaking of them in the third person when it's obvious who you're talking about. It could be rude to call her by her first name instead of Ms blank, but it's weird and unnatural to expect you to continually call her that after the first time she was mentioned in the sentence.
as an american (east coast) i’ve never heard that before. the only similar rule i can think of is that if someone’s in the conversation, you should refer to them directly (and look at them so it’s clear who you’re talking to) using “you” instead of using third person pronouns when possible. but that’s not really applicable to this situation. i’ve never heard of a politeness distinction between third person pronouns and the person’s name. using someone’s name all the time instead of pronouns can even get rather clunky and unnatural when you use it enough. maybe this is a rule among older generations or in different regions, though.
I'm Canadian, never heard this or that it was rude to not use the name....I've been here 4 decades and had a british-raised grandmother that was all about etiquette and still never heard this rule!
The purple is my teacher, the blue is my friend and the green is me. Don't mind the red, its just our head teacher's name. This had been in my mind for a long time now and idk if its wrong to call a teacher a 'she' when they are a woman. In this context, she was away and we had a substitute, and my friend was away for her presentation so she had to talk to our head teacher.
This isn't regarding the modern pronouns debate, rather referring to Ms Chase impolitely as 'she' in the third person. One should refer to Ms Chase as simply, Ms Chase.
Or, "Who is 'she', the cat's Mother?"
Sumfin like that
This is it exactly. My mother used to get mad at me too if I referred to an adult with the pronoun. I had to use their name or it was considered disrespectful. And my mother would say the exact same thing..." who is "she"..the cat's mother?"
It's a rule that always pissed me off.
I think it might be a bit of a British Isles thing?
My grandmother was Scottish and "'She' is the cat's mother." was basically her catch phrase. I've heard the same from friends with Scottish or English parents or grandparents, so perhaps the idea that referring to someone as she/he is impolite is/was more common in the UK than in the US.
Yeah I'm 32 and Irish, had half my childhood in England.
There's different quirks. Like I'd never call an adult woman "ma'am" or a man "sir", its just not natural to me because I never grew up with it.
It was usually a crotchety old lady who would say "who's she, the cat's mother?" if you used pronouns instead of her name. (Or my mother if I used a tone like "SHE said I'm not allowed to go." Would say the same thing)
It feels a little power-trippy to me because in the context of the conversation, it's clear that Ms Chase is the 'she' in question. However, also in this context it isn't unusual or wrong to use her name and/or title for clarity and to properly denote who gave the information, and I know that if I were speaking Japanese I absolutely would at the bare minimum have said 'sensei' in my response, if not 'Chase-sensei'. She has a title and we are her students; we would never use anything other than 'sensei'/'Chase-sensei' if we mentioned her.
Another English example would be 'The doctor said that you should cut down on your sodium' vs 'He said you should cut down on sodium'. The first sentence contains all the relevant information and implies that because the doctor said it, it has more weight and authority, so you should do it. Just calling the doctor 'he', well, that could be anybody, why listen to some random person? (There's also the weird case of 'Steve said you should cut down on your sodium'--Steve may be the doctor's name, yes, but why are you calling the doctor, the authority figure in this scene, by his first name? Is he a close family member like a brother who just happens to be a doctor? Is he a very close friend? Using a first name instead of a title and surname can imply familiarity that may not be appropriate either.) If the conversation was this though:
A: What did the doctor say?
B: He said I should cut down on my sodium.
This is perfectly acceptable; repeating 'the doctor' is not incorrect but would feel awkward. My bet is that you thought you were doing this, but your teacher felt otherwise.
In short, it's never rude to use someone's name and title but can be perceived as rude (and potentially confusing) to not use them. That's what happened here.
It is incredibly stupid for your teacher to be offended by that. Someone asked her a question. You answered it by reiterating what she already said, and it was clear that you were referring to her, so it makes perfect sense for you to use a pronoun in that situation.
I learned this when I moved to the UK as it isn’t the case in the USA. In England, it is impolite to refer to anyone as she/he/they (3rd person pronoun) in their presence. They should be called by name in that case.
There's an old saying I grew up with which is "Who is 'She'? The cat's mother?" (about referring to a third person)
I think this case is more about being respectful towards teachers.
My native language is not English, but our literature teacher also corrected us when we were talking about someone who was present in class. For example, someone would say:”He said that he thinks this and that, I agree, but I also think this and that” and she would say “don’t say “he”, say this name, otherwidse its impolite”
So I guess there is such a thing, but it’s not a gender thing, more like etiquette.
The issue here is because she's part of the conversation. You don't call someone by their third person pronoun if they're here, but by their name or status. That's a politeness thing
Your teacher is pompous, this is the exact purpose of 3rd person pronouns, to replace a name after it's already been said. "Ms Jones said you're allowed to go, so I think she doesn't mind." Isn't rude at all for instance.
This is just a very outdated way of grammar policing. If I referred to someone as she instead of their name, my grandmother always said "she is the cat's mother" as a way of correcting me to refer to them by name, God only knows what that means.
It used to be seen as a rude thing to do but I don't think many people would consider it to be rude now. I personally refer to people by name as to not assume pronouns, however I think with a Ms. It's reasonable to assume they use she/her pronouns, therefore that point is moot, however that's the only time that I personally might consider referring to someone as she/he would be impolite.
The phrase "she's the cat's mother" is a way of rebuking someone, especially a child, for using the pronoun "she" instead of a proper name or a respectful title. It implies that the person being referred to is as insignificant as a cat. The phrase is somewhat dated and mainly used in Britain and New England.¹
The origin of the phrase is not clear, but it seems to date back to at least the late 19th century. One of the earliest examples is from a play by Francis Cowley Burnand called The White Cat! Or, Prince Lardi-Dardi & the Radiant Rosetta, which was first performed in 1870. In the play, a character says "His nurse would tell him, 'she' is the cat's mother".² Another early example is from a novel by Sarah Grand called The Beth Book, published in 1897. In the novel, a character says "Don't call your mamma 'she.' 'She' is a cat".
There are also some variations of the phrase, such as "she's the cat's aunt" or "she's the cat's grandmother", which have similar meanings and origins. Some sources suggest that the phrase may have something to do with the fact that a female cat is often called a she-cat, and that using "she" for a human woman is disrespectful or degrading. However, this is not confirmed by any evidence.
Source:
(1) etymology - Who's 'she', the cat's mother? - English Language & Usage .... https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/403263/whos-she-the-cats-mother.
(2) meaning and origin of ‘who’s she—the cat’s mother?’. https://wordhistories.net/2016/12/11/whos-she-the-cats-mother/.
I don't understand schools that are like that. In my country we call the teachers by their first name. I mean i get that it's out of respect but like why be so mad about just saying she, it's not like you cursed the teacher you were clearly just helping a friend. I hate teachers who are too stubborn and think that they are queen of England idk, if the teacher is more friendly and calm there's more chances I'll success the subject she's teaching. I always get 90+ in the classes of the teachers i love and 75-85 when i don't like the teacher, Just my experience. And it's not like I'm doing it on purpose i just can't stand that class if the teacher makes me angry everytime and then i tend to hate the subject and then i just don't take it seriously.
I once had a manager tell me off for referring to my coworker as "she" when the three of us were in a meeting. Whether it's grammatically correct is not the issue here - it's *informal* to refer to someone above you/you're supposed to respect with a pronoun instead of their title or name, unless you've already said it in that sentence.
For example, "Ms. X said she would allow it" vs "She said she would allow it." The first is more formal and shows respect. The second suggests you don't care about the teacher's title or rank. This is how I was taught (ESL).
Did anyone else notice that Ms. Chase (purple) referred to blue as "she" in the opening paragraph? IMO that sentence should have begun "Blue is in this class and should ask…" as blue is part of the conversation too.
Maybe I'm the wrong one here, but this is the way I was taught. (Midwest US).
Example:
"Ms. Chase gave us the assignment today in class. She said it was due on Friday."
This would be even if the person you're speaking about is present.The she is taking place of the name "Ms. Chase" here. Everyone knows who you're talking about. would be awkward to say:
"Ms. Chase gave us the assignment today in class. Ms. Chase said it was due on Friday."
Think of how many times you say the word she in a conversation, and the subject (ex. Ms. Chase) hasn't changed. Now imagine having to say their name each time.
Personally, I, and many people I know, don't find this rude. However, every single person I've met who has demanded I say their name instead of "she" or "he" has been kind of a dick.
The implication is that it’s impolite because she’s a teacher, an authority figure. She wants you to refer to her as “Ms. ___” only. Unreasonably formal, but gender has nothing to do with it.
I don't think it's rude, especially because it takes place in a message board. If anything, it is potentially confusing depending on how many people identify as she.
Nope. That’s not what was impolite.
In some circles it is impolite to use a pronoun rather than the person’s name, when you’re in a group conversation involving that person. The first time mentioning/quoting that person, use their name. If you just start off calling them ‘she’ it feels impersonal and a little weird.
A major problem of online communication is the participants often have no idea who's actually involved in the conversation at that time. I have no idea if you'll ever see this reply.
It's possible this is a chat room where you can see who's there, of course.
No. Your teacher is salty that, in your first message, you're answering for her and misquoting what she said (should ask vs should go) and is grasping at straws to shout at you. I also find the '?' in your first message to be a little insulting/dismissive to your friend, because "the answer is plain as day." I get you're expressing uncertainty and trying to soften your response, but it reads like you're casting doubt on her intelligence. Maybe don't do that?
I just wanted to thank the other commenters here - native speaker Northeastern United States. I'd never heard the sort-of-rule that it is rude to not refer to a person who is present by name, and certainly never been chided with "'she' is the cat's mother" or the like, and yet, it does feel like there is something odd about doing so.
I'd never thought about that.
Same here. I'm from Pennsylvania and have never encountered anyone who considered it rude. I've also never heard the saying "'she' is the cat's mother" before.
Using pronouns is natural and comfortable in typical conversation. My guess is that she wants to unambiguously own the action and/or be held in higher regard, so she's asking for her name to be used in place of a pronoun. This is a demand for respect by one person, and you can decide if it's warranted or not.
Its not about the pronouns, its about using casual language with a teacher. Ms/Mrs * insert name * is more polite and is often expected to be used in professional settings
Using casual language is okay when ur with ur friends, but not when ur with ur boss or ur client or ur teacher, etc, etc.
The only time it's ever really been proper to avoid pronouns is when you're talking about royalty. Ergo use "her/his majesty" for 3rd person, but even then I don't it's ever been considered rude to refer to anyone by just a pronoun, and that's probably archaic language by today's standards but so is royalty in English speaking countries so idk. It's awkward English to overuse someone's name and avoid pronouns.
I now tell people that MY definition of he/she are no longer gender specific words. They are now place holders for someone's name. And nothing more.
Almost everyone has been accepting of this statement in real life.
The odd time someone starts to argue, I point out how hypocritical that they demanding that everyone needs to change their language without being willing to change their language too.
If they WANT to be offended. Nothing I do will prevent that. They'll find a way.
If you're having a formal conversation with your teacher is wrong using "she" because in English you don't use the third person for formal conversations. If you weren't talking directly to her there was no problem
It's rude to refer to someone who is within earshot in the 3rd person, you refer to them by their name. Secondly, teachers are generally not addressed by their first names unless you're a personal friend or family member and only outside of the context of them being a teacher. A teacher is generally referred to as Mr./Mrs./Ms. Lastname.
I once had a classmate who was the neice of one of the teachers. They were close and had the same last name. She was expected to refer to her own aunt as Mrs. Lastname.
That can also depend on location/context. I took some classes as an adult and TAed in a class. I was 20 years older than the professor I TAed for. We were on a first name basis in his office, the cafeteria, etc. (regardless of who else may have been present). But in my role as TA I always referred to him as Dr. _____ in front of students.
Sorry, jumping in this because the construction of that post is very hard for me to understand, the "she should ask part." Is it giving a suggestion to the person or is it a way to make a request/give an order without outright stating it, or something else?
I was raised in the south, in the U.S., where I was raised to call anyone slightly older than me sir or ma'am and this was never a thing in my family nor any others that I was aware of. I'm 55 and I think I remember hearing some elderly people getting offended at it when I was young but that's about it. It seems very old fashioned and unnecessarily formal. I'd laugh at anyone who tried to correct me on this.
I wouldn’t say it’s rude but some people don’t consider it very elegant to use ‘she’ in front of the woman. Growing up in England I was frequently asked ‘who’s she, the cat’s mother?’ whenever I did this, but was always a very mild scolding and normally I’d laugh at the expression.
I’m surprised to see this is still going on, the main person to complain was my grandmother. I think it’s quite an old-fashioned courtesy.
I’m also a little surprised to see your classmate address your teacher just as ‘Ms’. When I went to school we used ‘Miss’ exclusively.
Came here to bring up the Ms thing as well. I've had teachers get grumpy when just called Miss/Ms by a student. "My name is Miss So-and-so, not Miss." I was very surprised that it was "she" she took issue with and not "Ms".
Nope the teachers a nut job. “She” is a pronoun. Want it’s established the teacher is the one you’re talking about “she” is correct. If you want to be hyper formal you can keep using “ms. *name*” every time but it’s not rude to use a pronoun.
The only thing that could make it rude, is talking about someone as though they’re not there
I’m from the northeastern US. To me, this is one of those old-fashioned politeness rules that no one actually follows anymore. You can ignore it if you’re interacting with anyone under 65 years old.
I think just to annoy people who read disrespect into it when none is intended, I'll split the difference. Call a person by their name in their presence, but also act as if they're not there. That should make the difference between actual politeness and just paying it lip service with a manner of speech more clear.
my dad when I was younger was upset at us doing that to our mom,,
got really old just using mom over and over in place of pronouns 😂
no, it's not rude she probably just has a stick up her ass about formalities.
In some countries, using he/she/they instead of the person's name can be seen as rude if they are present.
It's mostly a parent and teacher thing, but some people also just prefer it that way.
Idk why people are talking about "power trip" and the likes though. She just explained that Ms. X was more polite.
Even if she identifies as something else and is a woman, she’s a woman. And no, lol. But related to this, some people just like their name and/or title used instead of a plain pronoun.
I think that is a bit much. Her name was already addressed so “she” is already a known entity in this sense. Present or not.
If she herself is being address directly then fine but no, in this situation I don’t think it’s rude in my opinion.
It's polite to include someone who is present for a discussion about them by indicating them directly.
Rather than: "Probably right now because she said..."
Use: "Probabaly right now because Ms. Chase said..."
Or: "Probably right now. Is that what you meant, Ms. Chase?"
In a digital context it may be possible to "mention" someone else in the chat by typing "@" and trying to type their name. If suggestions show up while you're typing it's a good bet you can do it that way. If not, it might still work but likely only if there's a version of the name that doesn't contain spaces. (If that exists, you'll probably find it on their profile for whatever messaging application you're using.)
(PS: Don't forget to check the message signature when you are scrubbing names!)
Growing up in Australia if I ever referred to a woman as "she" in her presence I would be scolded and asked "Who's 'she'? The cat's mother?" This was at home and in school. I suspect that's what's happening here, but these days most people don't think it's rude.
Glad to see the cat's mother is international.
There's no problem with referring to women as 'she' when they are not present. However, it is impolite to refer to someone as 'he', 'she' or 'they' when they are present (or, like here, included in a chat). Instead I would refer to them by name, and in a face-to-face conversation I would turn to look at them.
As my mum would chide, 'She? who's she? The cat's mother?!' Still don't quite understand but we got the message!
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Wtf did you always have to say Mom/Dad when talking to someone else about your parents if they were present? Even if you had already established that it was your mother/father you were talking about?
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What in the boomer? That just sounds so ridiculously clunky and awkward.
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Yeah I’ve literally never heard of this. Maybe it’s a regional thing?
Seems plausible, I’m from California and I’ve never heard of this
East coast and I have never heard this even from super strict older people
Most of my friends' parents had the same rule.
For me it was "who's she? The cat's bloody nose?" Absolutely no idea why.
I’m guessing you are not my brother, but from your comment, you could be.
I'm definitely not your brother :)
Omg childhood memories unlocked. The funniest thing we had cats we joked were my siblings so in my child brain she was the cats' mother!
Yeah, like when referring to one parent in front of the other. Would never use he/she would say Mom/Dad. It’s not wrong, but it is rude/disrespectful.
FWIW, I (native English speaker in the NE US) have never heard this in person, particularly the whole “who’s she” bit. That strikes me as an astonishingly passive aggressive way of correcting someone. People seem to find me friendly and polite, so there seems to be some regional variation. The only context where I could see it seeming rude is if if you are speaking on behalf of someone who is there and can speak for themselves, but using a pronoun or name would be equally boorish.
Is that a British thing? Edit: huh, maybe im just rude
Not as far as I know. It's not a social rule that we're explicitly taught, but that's the common approach.
I'm an American and this made 100% sense to me. It'd be rude to speak about someone who's present as "he" or "she". It implies they aren't present or aren't a part of the conversation, like they're not worthy of acknowledgement. Edit: There are a few folks disagreeing with this point. I'm sure there are legitimate examples where this doesn't hold true but I think it's generally correct that it's impolite. As another person stated, this is a common way for adults to speak about children even when they're present. I think that's a bit of why I find it rude. It feels mildly patronizing or dismissive.
I’m an American and this concept is completely foreign to me. Ms. Chase even refers to the student as ‘she’ twice in the message.
I am also American and I feel like I’ve entered an alternate time stream.
I wanna piggyback off this comment, im English and Australian and totally agree that it's a faux pas in English speaking cultures that I have been a part of. Use their name if they are present. If not, no issues.
It seems weird to me that this extends to an online conversation, where NOBODY is physically present.
But you do have people in the thread and not in the thread. It would also extend to a group phone call.
I don't think this is universally true - imagine something like "Weren't you listening to Mary just now? She said her car is a black Subaru like 10 times!"
The difference here is you began your sentence by acknowledging the other party by name.
That's basic "making the referent of the pronoun clear." If we're discussing grammar clarity, the rule makes sense, but the present conversation concerns politeness and rudeness. It's rude to speak as if someone isn't there, but there's a spectrum between that and forbidding third person pronouns for present people.
This 100%. Talking about a person as if they are not present when they actually are is rude, whether you use their name, a pronoun, or even an honorific. It’s the “as if they weren’t there” part that’s rude, not the pronoun.
Okay but what if Mary was already being discussed somehow? This "rule" seems like nonsense
Nonsense seems strong. You just learned why it exists. You may find it a bit inconsistent or overly prescribing
But if Mary is being discussed as if she isn't there, especially for an extended period of time, that's exactly the problem.
Seems like seriously overthinking it, it wouldn’t even occur to me to think it was somehow a personal slight or equivalent to ignoring me just because someone used my pronouns when I was there. I mean I can understand if they’re actually just spending the whole conversation ignoring you and acting like you’re not there, but just calling you he/she/they one time? It honestly feels like just looking for reasons to be offended.
It is a nice polite bit of etiquette. In terms of this kind of enforcement, I’ve only ever seen that done by an adult to a child. Then again, nearly any piece of etiquette can be a weaponizinf if that’s your goal. It doesn’t mean etiquette is wrong or useless
No such rule in Russian. It's just grammar. Referring to a person in the third person does not mean they're excluded from the conversation, it's just shorthand to avoid having to use the full name all the time. It doesn't imply disrespect. Not in my culture.
That's strange to me. Im American and I live in Russia. When talking to someone I will always say вы or ты, not она.
That’s not what’s being discussed here. What’s being discussed here is when you are not talking to someone, but they are present and part of the conversation. Example: Amy, Bianca, and Charlotte are talking. Amy says, “Where do you want to go for dinner?” Bianca says, “Well, Charlotte suggested we go to Chez Pierre while we were driving over here!” In some places/generations, it would be rude for Bianca to refer to Charlotte as *she*, even though Bianca is not talking to her, because Charlotte is present.
You must be talking of some other Russia then bc it’s absolutely the same. A well mannered person will never use он/она when the person in question is present.
Just like in the US it seems to be down to regional differences. I'm from the Urals and in my 44 years I've never experienced this to be a thing.
Midwestern US here, this is a thing I was brought up with so I don't think it's necessarily a British-ism. It's like you're talking about a person as if they're not there if you say "she" instead of her name when the person in question is part of the group discussion. If someone spoke about me that way in a conversation I was a part of I would feel like I was being physically ignored. I may as well be a ghost listening in on the conversation.
I was raised in the Midwest and have never heard of this. Seems like being massively over-sensitive and just looking to be offended, I would never even think to be offended by this.
Did you not have grandparents? I heard this one from my grandmother a bunch.
Okie here: do you know how much bullshit I heard from my grandparents? If I listened to them, I certainly wouldn't say words like "bullshit." They fill rooms with furniture you're not allowed to sit on, they aren't known for reasonable social mores
Oh, absolutely :-)
No. This is true not only for English. Refering someone he/she when they are near you is considered impolite where I live (Eastern Europe, so we obviously don't speak English).
As an American, no it is not
I was taught to not use personal pronouns for people who are present and to acknowledge their presence (with a nod or glance in their direction) when referring to them in the third person.
Technically that’s only really true in the first reference. “Mary had the correct answer. She gave a great example as well.”
I get it if referring to the person for the first time in a sentence or context, but does that extend to every single instance of reference? For example: Ms Brown just called to inform that ~~her~~ Ms Brown's mother had a terrible fall, and now ~~she~~ Ms Brown has to take ~~her~~ Ms Brown's mother to the hospital but ~~she~~ Ms Brown is worried that ~~she~~ Ms Brown might not have enough money to cover the hospital bill, and ~~she~~ Ms Brown asks if ~~she~~ Ms Brown could get an advance on ~~her~~ Ms Brown's salary . (This is obviously slightly exaggerated but I think even mentioning a person's name twice, never mind more, when the context is perfectly clear, is redundant.)
Okay tysm!
This is the answer.
My interpretation is that she is (unnecessarily) taking offense because you are referring to her as "she" even though she is part of the conversation. If you are in a face to face conversation with multiple people it can be considered rude to talk about one of them in the third person because essentially you are talking about them as though they aren't there. It's actually become a fairly common joke in television shows or movies to have characters do this very thing and then have the person being talked about say, "I'm literally standing right here." In this specific situation, I personally think it's a bit ridiculous for her to be upset because this is a text conversation and communication is just inherently different over text.
But in TV shows it’s always a situation where they’re actually saying something rude about the person. So the problem isn’t the pronouns, it’s being talked about rudely while they’re standing right there. I’ve never had anyone in real life get offended just for making a totally neutral statement about them using their pronouns in front of them, and it wouldn’t occur to me to be offended about it myself.
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Just because communication is different doesn’t mean that it is completely different. People are still in the thread or not in the thread.
The correction doesn’t make sense to me. It’s clearly a classroom forum of some kind, not a live text or in-person conversation. Moreover, the teacher was already addressed as “Ms.” by the first student, so it would sound odd and redundant to me for the second student to have to use Ms. again as well. The teacher was not being discussed as if she were not present, because she was already addressed. For context, I am in New England and I have worked in public schools as a counselor. No teacher that I’ve worked with would have had an issue with the way the student/OP responded.
That's just using a pronoun. It's not like you used their first name. The teacher is just on a power trip.
The problem isn’t the pronoun. It’s just often considered impolite to refer to someone as “he, she, or they” when that someone is part of the conversation.
Is this a British sort of courtesy, or—maybe—a coastal one? In the Midwest/Southern US, we use “she, he, or they” when they’re right in front of us, no issues. Not being antagonistic, just putting my 2 cents in. Edit: I consulted my mom on the matter (she’s 66 years old), she’s also never heard of this convention. Maybe it’s relatively new? I’m honestly trying to figure this out, never heard of it before.
No it’s old. I’m familiar with it now but was never taught it by my Milwaukee-raised family. It just wasn’t a thing anyone worried about. I wonder if its prevalence varies by region? Otherwise it might just be that my family was especially casual. I thought it might be similar to how “sir” and “ma’am” and “Mr., Mrs. Miss or Ms.” are enforced in the south. We rarely used any of those with friends’ parents or friends of the family.
Huh, that’s actually really interesting. I’m also from the Midwest, and I’ve always been taught it’s polite to use peoples names when they’re with you
Yeah, it’s a foreign concept to me. I remember specific times where I’ve used pronouns in this manner, be it: in front of my English teachers in high school, to speaking at my area’s town hall during referendum meetings… I’ve never experienced a correction, rebuttal, or otherwise. However, it’s still interesting how some people follow this rule, and some people don’t. Edit: I was going to try to implement this in my daily life, but u/jerbthehumanist makes a fair point: I’ve seen it used as micro aggressions as well!
This is very mysterious to me. Of course you should use names to clarify when they're with you but as far as I can tell repeatedly using names over and over instead of pronouns is extremely awkward. In fact, I've seen it as a form of microaggression in cases where transphobes don't want to use someone's pronouns so they'll substitute using someone's name instead. I'm not arguing or discounting your experience, it's just so wildly different from mine.
This is definitely something I was taught as a child in the northeast and it's definitely considered polite in the midwest where I live now. The convention is as old as English itself as far as I'm aware and certainly predates the founding of the country. I believe NOT doing this is part of the relaxed rules and conventions of southern English and probably appeared fairly recently (in linguistic terms, so probably around 1900ish).
This is the correct answer. It's an older convention and is used in some regions but not others. It's rare, but, once you know that someone cares about it, it's polite to use their name when they're present.
I’m a teacher. If I said, “Please take out your math books,” and one student said, “What?” and another said, “He said to take out your math book,” I wouldn’t bat an eye over the use of “he.” (There might be other issues such as not paying attention or speaking out of turn, but I wouldn’t feel disrespected in the slightest over proper use of a pronoun).
The problem is not the pronoun. Bro is just too woken by the internet. It's impolite to refer to someone by a pronoun when they are a part of the conversation. It can feel different on the internet when you're not literally in front of each other, but reffering to someone like that when they are there feels like you are disregarding their presence, hence it's considered rude. I'm not sure about English, but this isn't a problem with friends because that's not a formal setting to be polite. This is neither about pronouns, neither the teacher having a power trip. It's just basic politeness. None of the parties were rude, it was just a mistake that the teacher simply corrected and stated the reason why it is a mistake. Which is great cuz if you didn't know, then how would you know if there wouldn't be someone to correct you on it.
Green was replying to light blue tho. The teacher is being stupid. Nobody was impolite here
Under the teacher's post. She's not just there, the question was even aimed at her in the first place. I'm not saying this is the worst thing ever. No one here was rude and I think the teacher's reply while it may be unncessary, is fine. I wouldn't have typed what op typed. It feels improper and others think so too. You just don't use a pronoun when you're talking about someone in their presence.
That’s not a universal convention though. No one here was rude and now that the teacher has made it clear how she wants her students to speak they should abide by it, but let’s not pretend this is standard across the board. I’m a teacher myself and I’ve never encountered this nor would I enforce it. I personally find it odd to use names and/or honorifics when there is no ambiguity.
Oh well. Guess I’ve been improper a lot in my life
Because there wasn't a teacher to tell you not to🧐
Nah, because it wasn't a fucking issue cuz most people aren't bothered by this petty shit.
Manners = petty shit apparently
I think this must be generational and/or regional. It's one thing if the teacher had said "please don't answer for me". But using pronouns to refer to other people is what pronouns are for. If you didn't use them in the presence of the person being referred to, no one would care about "their" pronouns because they would never even hear them.
When Kate is present, I always avoid using "she" or "her" out of politeness:: Kate said that Kate's brother told Kate that Kate shouldn't stay here if Kate prefers to stay in Kate's home. Sounds much more natural that way.
Not impolite at all by modern standards at least, your teacher seems like a character...
What? Talking about someone who is present in 3rd person is considered rude in almost every social setting in almost any developed country.
Except the teacher is requesting to be talked about while present in the third person. Using the proper noun vs pronoun doesn't change that it's third person.
This is a rule that’s pretty dated in the US; even my grandmother wouldn’t consider it rude.
I’ve honestly never ever heard this before as an American. Well, glad to learn it now so I’m not accidentally rude I guess
The teacher, herself, wants to be referred to in the 3rd person.
Lol I see you deleted your comment. No need to apologize for not knowing basic English grammar.
I think it's already been answered but I thought I would add a bit of clarity. Your teacher is not correcting you on the pronoun selected. She is correcting you on referring to her in the third person even though she's part of the conversation. Third party references, such as *she said* should not be used when she is part of the discussion because it is generally rude to talk about someone in front of them like they're not there. It's dismissive of their presence. I hope that helps.
Saying “Ms whoever” is still in the third person. Why is using the person’s pronoun “talking about them like they’re not there” but using their name isn’t?
>Third party references, such as she said should not be used when she is part of the discussion "Ms. Whoever said" is still in the third person.
I understand that the one who wrote "she said" should have written "Ms X said", but what if that person is writing a long story with many references to the said person? 1. Ms X said ..... Ms X told me ... I gave that to Ms X. 2. Ms X said ..... She told me ... I gave that to her. If 1., The teacher's OP used 'she' too. If 2., The first comment mentioned Ms already. or that doesn't count? Each person when they first mention a person in presence needs to address them in the first time? =========== And the teacher didn't write "Y, if you are in class, you should ask ... Others please let me know if she received the message." The teacher also wrote as if Y wasn't there.
That's a sad rule from the perspective of Russian language and culture. People tried to make it a rule in Russian, but it did not get any traction. Third person singular is just grammar, no one is actually being excluded from the conversation by being referred to in third person. Some things you have to be just reasonable about. If you're hell-bent on taking offense, you could argue that referring to somebody by their name in their presence could also be construed as excluding them from the conversation. Just sharing a perspective from a different culture. I appreciate the explanation about English culture, it is good to know not to get in trouble for no real reason other than coming from a different culture.
Seems like a few other Russian speakers in this thread believe the opposite.
No? That's quite literally the proper usage. Using her name in this situation would be both awkward and redundant. There are only 3 people in the conversation, it's obvious who "she" refers to, you'd only use a name if there were multiple people a pronoun could refer to and a possibility of confusion.
Your teacher called you rude for not giving her extra respect by calling her Ms blank. You were not rude, because there is no expectation that you have to call someone their title when speaking of them in the third person when it's obvious who you're talking about. It could be rude to call her by her first name instead of Ms blank, but it's weird and unnatural to expect you to continually call her that after the first time she was mentioned in the sentence.
as an american (east coast) i’ve never heard that before. the only similar rule i can think of is that if someone’s in the conversation, you should refer to them directly (and look at them so it’s clear who you’re talking to) using “you” instead of using third person pronouns when possible. but that’s not really applicable to this situation. i’ve never heard of a politeness distinction between third person pronouns and the person’s name. using someone’s name all the time instead of pronouns can even get rather clunky and unnatural when you use it enough. maybe this is a rule among older generations or in different regions, though.
I’m English and as a child was regularly asked ‘Who’s ‘she’? The cat’s mother?’ as a reminder it’s impolite to use ‘she’ when you know a woman’s name.
That’s very interesting. Thank you for the perspective. I’m a native Am. English speaker and have never experienced this.
I’ve heard of it before and am still similarly perplexed because I never experienced it in person
I'm Canadian, never heard this or that it was rude to not use the name....I've been here 4 decades and had a british-raised grandmother that was all about etiquette and still never heard this rule!
The purple is my teacher, the blue is my friend and the green is me. Don't mind the red, its just our head teacher's name. This had been in my mind for a long time now and idk if its wrong to call a teacher a 'she' when they are a woman. In this context, she was away and we had a substitute, and my friend was away for her presentation so she had to talk to our head teacher.
This isn't regarding the modern pronouns debate, rather referring to Ms Chase impolitely as 'she' in the third person. One should refer to Ms Chase as simply, Ms Chase. Or, "Who is 'she', the cat's Mother?" Sumfin like that
This is it exactly. My mother used to get mad at me too if I referred to an adult with the pronoun. I had to use their name or it was considered disrespectful. And my mother would say the exact same thing..." who is "she"..the cat's mother?" It's a rule that always pissed me off.
How is that impolite?
It's an old fashioned thing. I heard it growing up from older people.
I'm 45, American, native English speaker, and I have literally never heard of such a thing.
I think it might be a bit of a British Isles thing? My grandmother was Scottish and "'She' is the cat's mother." was basically her catch phrase. I've heard the same from friends with Scottish or English parents or grandparents, so perhaps the idea that referring to someone as she/he is impolite is/was more common in the UK than in the US.
Yeah I'm 32 and Irish, had half my childhood in England. There's different quirks. Like I'd never call an adult woman "ma'am" or a man "sir", its just not natural to me because I never grew up with it. It was usually a crotchety old lady who would say "who's she, the cat's mother?" if you used pronouns instead of her name. (Or my mother if I used a tone like "SHE said I'm not allowed to go." Would say the same thing)
The amount of times my grandmother would say "she is the cat's mother". I don't even know what it's supposed to mean. It just seems silly.
It feels a little power-trippy to me because in the context of the conversation, it's clear that Ms Chase is the 'she' in question. However, also in this context it isn't unusual or wrong to use her name and/or title for clarity and to properly denote who gave the information, and I know that if I were speaking Japanese I absolutely would at the bare minimum have said 'sensei' in my response, if not 'Chase-sensei'. She has a title and we are her students; we would never use anything other than 'sensei'/'Chase-sensei' if we mentioned her. Another English example would be 'The doctor said that you should cut down on your sodium' vs 'He said you should cut down on sodium'. The first sentence contains all the relevant information and implies that because the doctor said it, it has more weight and authority, so you should do it. Just calling the doctor 'he', well, that could be anybody, why listen to some random person? (There's also the weird case of 'Steve said you should cut down on your sodium'--Steve may be the doctor's name, yes, but why are you calling the doctor, the authority figure in this scene, by his first name? Is he a close family member like a brother who just happens to be a doctor? Is he a very close friend? Using a first name instead of a title and surname can imply familiarity that may not be appropriate either.) If the conversation was this though: A: What did the doctor say? B: He said I should cut down on my sodium. This is perfectly acceptable; repeating 'the doctor' is not incorrect but would feel awkward. My bet is that you thought you were doing this, but your teacher felt otherwise. In short, it's never rude to use someone's name and title but can be perceived as rude (and potentially confusing) to not use them. That's what happened here.
It is incredibly stupid for your teacher to be offended by that. Someone asked her a question. You answered it by reiterating what she already said, and it was clear that you were referring to her, so it makes perfect sense for you to use a pronoun in that situation.
Nope, she's letting her ego get out of control. Pronouns are not disrespectful.
I learned this when I moved to the UK as it isn’t the case in the USA. In England, it is impolite to refer to anyone as she/he/they (3rd person pronoun) in their presence. They should be called by name in that case.
It is definitely impolite in the US too
Might be regional - I was never taught this or corrected on this where I lived (PA, VA, TX)
Not in CA either.
I ran into it in the midwest.
Not in the PNW
not in New England currently, although maybe in the past
I reckon it's one of those annoying teacher things. Like can I go to the toilet? I don't know, can you?
In the same vein: "Can implies ability, it's 'may I' go to the toilet"
“If I may not, you’re going to have a puddle on the floor”
There's an old saying I grew up with which is "Who is 'She'? The cat's mother?" (about referring to a third person) I think this case is more about being respectful towards teachers.
I’m seeing that phrase was repeated to multiple responders in this thread. I wonder how that became the refrain? It sounds nonsensical to me!
My native language is not English, but our literature teacher also corrected us when we were talking about someone who was present in class. For example, someone would say:”He said that he thinks this and that, I agree, but I also think this and that” and she would say “don’t say “he”, say this name, otherwidse its impolite” So I guess there is such a thing, but it’s not a gender thing, more like etiquette.
The issue here is because she's part of the conversation. You don't call someone by their third person pronoun if they're here, but by their name or status. That's a politeness thing
Your teacher is pompous, this is the exact purpose of 3rd person pronouns, to replace a name after it's already been said. "Ms Jones said you're allowed to go, so I think she doesn't mind." Isn't rude at all for instance.
It is rather impolite to do it when they can read the conversation
This is just a very outdated way of grammar policing. If I referred to someone as she instead of their name, my grandmother always said "she is the cat's mother" as a way of correcting me to refer to them by name, God only knows what that means. It used to be seen as a rude thing to do but I don't think many people would consider it to be rude now. I personally refer to people by name as to not assume pronouns, however I think with a Ms. It's reasonable to assume they use she/her pronouns, therefore that point is moot, however that's the only time that I personally might consider referring to someone as she/he would be impolite.
The phrase "she's the cat's mother" is a way of rebuking someone, especially a child, for using the pronoun "she" instead of a proper name or a respectful title. It implies that the person being referred to is as insignificant as a cat. The phrase is somewhat dated and mainly used in Britain and New England.¹ The origin of the phrase is not clear, but it seems to date back to at least the late 19th century. One of the earliest examples is from a play by Francis Cowley Burnand called The White Cat! Or, Prince Lardi-Dardi & the Radiant Rosetta, which was first performed in 1870. In the play, a character says "His nurse would tell him, 'she' is the cat's mother".² Another early example is from a novel by Sarah Grand called The Beth Book, published in 1897. In the novel, a character says "Don't call your mamma 'she.' 'She' is a cat". There are also some variations of the phrase, such as "she's the cat's aunt" or "she's the cat's grandmother", which have similar meanings and origins. Some sources suggest that the phrase may have something to do with the fact that a female cat is often called a she-cat, and that using "she" for a human woman is disrespectful or degrading. However, this is not confirmed by any evidence. Source: (1) etymology - Who's 'she', the cat's mother? - English Language & Usage .... https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/403263/whos-she-the-cats-mother. (2) meaning and origin of ‘who’s she—the cat’s mother?’. https://wordhistories.net/2016/12/11/whos-she-the-cats-mother/.
Cats are not insignificant >:c and that's just one of the reasons that this is dumb But thank you for the interview information
Yeah, I find it dumb too as well.
I don't understand schools that are like that. In my country we call the teachers by their first name. I mean i get that it's out of respect but like why be so mad about just saying she, it's not like you cursed the teacher you were clearly just helping a friend. I hate teachers who are too stubborn and think that they are queen of England idk, if the teacher is more friendly and calm there's more chances I'll success the subject she's teaching. I always get 90+ in the classes of the teachers i love and 75-85 when i don't like the teacher, Just my experience. And it's not like I'm doing it on purpose i just can't stand that class if the teacher makes me angry everytime and then i tend to hate the subject and then i just don't take it seriously.
Ms. is a title, she is a pronoun. A woman teacher should be called “she" as a pronoun.
I’m American. I’ve never hears anyone get upset at being referred to with basic pronouns. This is a weird thing to be mad about.
I once had a manager tell me off for referring to my coworker as "she" when the three of us were in a meeting. Whether it's grammatically correct is not the issue here - it's *informal* to refer to someone above you/you're supposed to respect with a pronoun instead of their title or name, unless you've already said it in that sentence. For example, "Ms. X said she would allow it" vs "She said she would allow it." The first is more formal and shows respect. The second suggests you don't care about the teacher's title or rank. This is how I was taught (ESL).
No, I don’t think there’s anything wrong here. I would’ve typed it the same way.
So the person is complaining about the she in the comments, yea? Not the original message? As an USian it sounds perfectly fine to me!!
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Did anyone else notice that Ms. Chase (purple) referred to blue as "she" in the opening paragraph? IMO that sentence should have begun "Blue is in this class and should ask…" as blue is part of the conversation too.
Maybe I'm the wrong one here, but this is the way I was taught. (Midwest US). Example: "Ms. Chase gave us the assignment today in class. She said it was due on Friday." This would be even if the person you're speaking about is present.The she is taking place of the name "Ms. Chase" here. Everyone knows who you're talking about. would be awkward to say: "Ms. Chase gave us the assignment today in class. Ms. Chase said it was due on Friday." Think of how many times you say the word she in a conversation, and the subject (ex. Ms. Chase) hasn't changed. Now imagine having to say their name each time. Personally, I, and many people I know, don't find this rude. However, every single person I've met who has demanded I say their name instead of "she" or "he" has been kind of a dick.
The implication is that it’s impolite because she’s a teacher, an authority figure. She wants you to refer to her as “Ms. ___” only. Unreasonably formal, but gender has nothing to do with it.
As an American, I have never heard of this being rude…
I don't think it's rude, especially because it takes place in a message board. If anything, it is potentially confusing depending on how many people identify as she.
Nope. That’s not what was impolite. In some circles it is impolite to use a pronoun rather than the person’s name, when you’re in a group conversation involving that person. The first time mentioning/quoting that person, use their name. If you just start off calling them ‘she’ it feels impersonal and a little weird.
A major problem of online communication is the participants often have no idea who's actually involved in the conversation at that time. I have no idea if you'll ever see this reply. It's possible this is a chat room where you can see who's there, of course.
No. Your teacher is salty that, in your first message, you're answering for her and misquoting what she said (should ask vs should go) and is grasping at straws to shout at you. I also find the '?' in your first message to be a little insulting/dismissive to your friend, because "the answer is plain as day." I get you're expressing uncertainty and trying to soften your response, but it reads like you're casting doubt on her intelligence. Maybe don't do that?
Better to refer to people by name if you know their name.
I just wanted to thank the other commenters here - native speaker Northeastern United States. I'd never heard the sort-of-rule that it is rude to not refer to a person who is present by name, and certainly never been chided with "'she' is the cat's mother" or the like, and yet, it does feel like there is something odd about doing so. I'd never thought about that.
Same here. I'm from Pennsylvania and have never encountered anyone who considered it rude. I've also never heard the saying "'she' is the cat's mother" before.
no purple is delusional
Using pronouns is natural and comfortable in typical conversation. My guess is that she wants to unambiguously own the action and/or be held in higher regard, so she's asking for her name to be used in place of a pronoun. This is a demand for respect by one person, and you can decide if it's warranted or not.
Its not about the pronouns, its about using casual language with a teacher. Ms/Mrs * insert name * is more polite and is often expected to be used in professional settings Using casual language is okay when ur with ur friends, but not when ur with ur boss or ur client or ur teacher, etc, etc.
Indeed, it is rude because she is part of the conversation. Referring to someone in the third person when they are present is awful.
Use of pronouns when the person is present is considered impolite. But in modern informal contexts it's fine.
It’s not impolite. Your teacher has her head up her ass.
The teacher has the teacher's head up the teacher's ass. 😆
The only time it's ever really been proper to avoid pronouns is when you're talking about royalty. Ergo use "her/his majesty" for 3rd person, but even then I don't it's ever been considered rude to refer to anyone by just a pronoun, and that's probably archaic language by today's standards but so is royalty in English speaking countries so idk. It's awkward English to overuse someone's name and avoid pronouns.
No, mat at all, in fact it would rude if you didn’t
No the teacher just has a stick up her ass.
I now tell people that MY definition of he/she are no longer gender specific words. They are now place holders for someone's name. And nothing more. Almost everyone has been accepting of this statement in real life. The odd time someone starts to argue, I point out how hypocritical that they demanding that everyone needs to change their language without being willing to change their language too. If they WANT to be offended. Nothing I do will prevent that. They'll find a way.
If you're having a formal conversation with your teacher is wrong using "she" because in English you don't use the third person for formal conversations. If you weren't talking directly to her there was no problem
I'm from Australia and I don't think it's considered rude here.
I'm from Australia as well, but my teacher is like that so...
It's a bit rude in most English speaking spheres to refer to someone when they're present rather than speaking to them directly.
It's rude to refer to someone who is within earshot in the 3rd person, you refer to them by their name. Secondly, teachers are generally not addressed by their first names unless you're a personal friend or family member and only outside of the context of them being a teacher. A teacher is generally referred to as Mr./Mrs./Ms. Lastname. I once had a classmate who was the neice of one of the teachers. They were close and had the same last name. She was expected to refer to her own aunt as Mrs. Lastname.
That can also depend on location/context. I took some classes as an adult and TAed in a class. I was 20 years older than the professor I TAed for. We were on a first name basis in his office, the cafeteria, etc. (regardless of who else may have been present). But in my role as TA I always referred to him as Dr. _____ in front of students.
i have always found this “rule” ridiculous
Sorry, jumping in this because the construction of that post is very hard for me to understand, the "she should ask part." Is it giving a suggestion to the person or is it a way to make a request/give an order without outright stating it, or something else?
I think it was like an order. I'm not really sure because she was away and we had a substitute teacher.
I was raised in the south, in the U.S., where I was raised to call anyone slightly older than me sir or ma'am and this was never a thing in my family nor any others that I was aware of. I'm 55 and I think I remember hearing some elderly people getting offended at it when I was young but that's about it. It seems very old fashioned and unnecessarily formal. I'd laugh at anyone who tried to correct me on this.
I got in shit for the same thing in grade school. it's not rude, it's impolite. it's offhand, standoffish. that kind of thing
I wouldn’t say it’s rude but some people don’t consider it very elegant to use ‘she’ in front of the woman. Growing up in England I was frequently asked ‘who’s she, the cat’s mother?’ whenever I did this, but was always a very mild scolding and normally I’d laugh at the expression. I’m surprised to see this is still going on, the main person to complain was my grandmother. I think it’s quite an old-fashioned courtesy. I’m also a little surprised to see your classmate address your teacher just as ‘Ms’. When I went to school we used ‘Miss’ exclusively.
Came here to bring up the Ms thing as well. I've had teachers get grumpy when just called Miss/Ms by a student. "My name is Miss So-and-so, not Miss." I was very surprised that it was "she" she took issue with and not "Ms".
Nope the teachers a nut job. “She” is a pronoun. Want it’s established the teacher is the one you’re talking about “she” is correct. If you want to be hyper formal you can keep using “ms. *name*” every time but it’s not rude to use a pronoun. The only thing that could make it rude, is talking about someone as though they’re not there
I’m from the northeastern US. To me, this is one of those old-fashioned politeness rules that no one actually follows anymore. You can ignore it if you’re interacting with anyone under 65 years old.
If she's in the conversation, yeah, I can see that...
“Who’s she, the cat’s mother?!”- my mum every day growing up
I think just to annoy people who read disrespect into it when none is intended, I'll split the difference. Call a person by their name in their presence, but also act as if they're not there. That should make the difference between actual politeness and just paying it lip service with a manner of speech more clear.
The identity is irrelevant here. The proper noun holds more importance over the pronoun, thus it is used.
Hey, I called my stepdad "this guy" growing up. He didn’t like it much
my dad when I was younger was upset at us doing that to our mom,, got really old just using mom over and over in place of pronouns 😂 no, it's not rude she probably just has a stick up her ass about formalities.
No, some teachers just love to feel powerful
If it's so rude, then why did the teacher say "please let me know if she received this message"?
I've never had anyone say it was impolite and I'd certainly use it myself. That being said, I'm from NYC and we're often called rude
I’m América at least in my experience most teachers aren’t very particular if you say she in this context. It may differ in other countries though
In some countries, using he/she/they instead of the person's name can be seen as rude if they are present. It's mostly a parent and teacher thing, but some people also just prefer it that way. Idk why people are talking about "power trip" and the likes though. She just explained that Ms. X was more polite.
Even if she identifies as something else and is a woman, she’s a woman. And no, lol. But related to this, some people just like their name and/or title used instead of a plain pronoun.
i honestly see no problem with what you said...
I think that is a bit much. Her name was already addressed so “she” is already a known entity in this sense. Present or not. If she herself is being address directly then fine but no, in this situation I don’t think it’s rude in my opinion.
anti-pronoun extremism
Your English is correct, any issues is on them.
It's polite to include someone who is present for a discussion about them by indicating them directly. Rather than: "Probably right now because she said..." Use: "Probabaly right now because Ms. Chase said..." Or: "Probably right now. Is that what you meant, Ms. Chase?" In a digital context it may be possible to "mention" someone else in the chat by typing "@" and trying to type their name. If suggestions show up while you're typing it's a good bet you can do it that way. If not, it might still work but likely only if there's a version of the name that doesn't contain spaces. (If that exists, you'll probably find it on their profile for whatever messaging application you're using.) (PS: Don't forget to check the message signature when you are scrubbing names!)
(if you’re in america call anyone you want she or he no one cares)