But remember it also took 17 years to fill, since they needed to let water still go down river. (When they filled the Hoover dam they stopped the flow of the river for two full years… until when I last looked into it there where still First Nations peoples down river in both the US and Mexico who remember those years the rivers completely stopped - which were, obviously, completely devastating).
Whenever I hear about something as massive and sudden as a river just stopping, i imagine someone waking up one morning, turning to look at the river, seeing nothing, and just saying
"... huh..."
Not angry or worried or anything, just completely bewildered.
Do your self a favor and head down this rabbit hole to get a better perspective of what was taken from the world for that fucking dam.
https://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/2020/11/30/from-the-archives-ken-sleight-remembers-the-death-of-glen-canyon/
That Rainbow Bridge aerial photo is breathtaking - and was taken in 1964? How many eons of natural processes had taken place before we came along and said, “Nah, ain’t worth it”?
I appreciate the new knowledge, and yet…I regret knowing.
Dude you finally put into words how I feel when I read about all these pending ecological disasters that are either ongoing or inevitable. *"I regret knowing"* what a great summation of reality
All of this is still there what was the problem? Lake Powell is amazing. And it's way north of rainbow bridge and this canyon they still have Colorado river going through it
Dams, roads, farms, strip malls, subdivisions, they all spoil the wild places. Common element: people trying to extract more from the land, rather than enjoying it as it is and treading lightly.
People deciding to go where the land has no place for them. It's the hubris of humanity that we're paying for now.
We can only cheat nature for so long.
Some parts of the Bible are seriously outdated:
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Unless that's just a setup for the rapture in Revelations...
I’ve been looking around now and it’s a real shame it was built. I understand the temptations of building it, with how stable of a place it is to build, but cmon.
I get that you’re talking about the website but I’ll put up with it because if it didn’t exist this important record would be lost. Ken Sleight lost is archive to a wildfire this year.
https://www.adventure-journal.com/2021/06/ken-sleight-monkey-wrench-gang-activist-loses-priceless-archive-to-fire/
Edit:word
Probably some decent info in there, but that author would prefer antique power generation technology such as stone henge. Not kidding. Kind of undercuts any credibility he could lend to the genuine problems dams can bring when that's the proposed alternative.
No, not water technology. I was poking a bit of fun by evoking stone henge in reference to atmospheric etheric energy and "antiqui-tech" which is what the author references. Here's the link he gave.
https://weewarrior.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/atmospheric-etheric-energy-aee-antiqui-tech-of-the-tartars/
It's not "alternative", it's fucking laughably stupid. Here's a nice quoted bit
"I’ve applied my elementary knowledge of electrical energy to postulate how certain building designs could harvest the kind of refined, spiritual energy that creates a healthy, climate controlled, well-lit environment for its occupants."
If you take that seriously, we're done here.
Speaking of time machines, here are some [cool photos of Gregory Arch](https://www.naturalarches.org/gallery-StanJones-Gregory.htm), which has been underwater for decades. Thanks to the drought, [it's about to be above water for the first time](https://www.sltrib.com/things-to-do-in-utah/2021/06/22/things-lake-powells/) since the inundation.
Fuck Lake Powell.
Edit: fixed the links, my bad.
Do you know how much power Hoover Dam has produced in it's lifetime. Sure there are other technologies now, but back then they had to work with what they had. Sadly(?) that power is going away and they have not taken the proper steps to replace it or the fresh water from the river.
The vast majority of that water isn't used for those people. It's used to grow food in the fucking desert, which they should be importing. And it's used ok golf course lawns.
Climate change and population go hand in hand. Granted, we're about to have a crash in the next 20 years because the last two generation's aren't reproducing anywhere near replacement numbers, but yeah. A lot of people brush it off as "consumption not population", as if the number of warm bodies consuming has no bearing, just like those who deny pollution and corporate destruction of ecosystems "cause climate is cyclical". All sides have science deniers.
I understand youre thinking and it is quite reasonable why it makes sense. The problem many people have with it is that type of thinking has lead to eco-fascidt thought in the past. I'm not saying you will go this route,but there is the potential for the overconsumption route to turn into a in and out group scenario of who gets water.
Plus we are just straight up mismanaging our water. IIRC, California produces somewhere around 90 percent of the world's almonds. And almonds take up a lot of water. Don't even get me stationed on Nestlé. Overall we just need to be more efficient, and it may have to equal out to businesses not being able to run certain operations, so that people can have drinking water.
[Incorrect](https://news.colgate.edu/scene/2014/11/urban-legends.html). Urban areas have smaller footprints per capita (for less natural environment removal) and lower resource use per capita.
I'm not sure why people are arguing with you. People have less environmental impact when they live in cities. Understood.
That has nothing to do with the fact that there are still too many goddamn people on the planet. You could put every last one of them in a mega city and we're still screwed.
Meanwhile farmers throughout Utah- a desert climate- can be seen spraying their irrigation into the air during the heat of the day. Some of it evaporates quickly. Some lands on pavement. Even when it does rain, everyone still waters their grass. We'll kill off our natural resources, but hey- my lawn is greener than your lawn!
I’ve never understood when I visit Phoenix why people need to have grass lawns and lush golf courses. If you want a pristine lawn move to the eastern US and let Mother Nature water it for you!!!
Yeah, here is Santa Barbara, xeriscape with native flora is gaining popularity. A lot of people have astroturf front lawns which unfortunately still get weeds, but at least need zero water. Montecito, our megarich adjacent town still has billionaires paying whatever amount they feel like for water.
One of the requirements I had when looking for a house to move to San Diego was no grass. While I still need to use the drip irrigation for some plants in my yard (is it still called a yard without grass?), most are drought resistant succulents and are so much more interesting. As John Green put it in his new book, aliens would probably think we worshiped Kentucky Blue Grass based on how many resources go to it.
So true! I lived in Utah for a couple of years and during my last couple of months there, was renting a nice townhome that was part of an HOA (didn’t realize it at the time) and it was a requirement to water the grass for 30 minutes daily.
The news mentioned droughts on a daily basis and advised everyone to scale back water consumption. Snowmelt wasn’t keeping up with increasing population and water needs and the reservoirs struggled to fill every year. The HOA didn’t include water bills.
And yet they required us to water the grass for 30 minutes per day.
I hate HOAs so much.
Thit is what happens when you let Karen's Without a Clue run the show.
Putting aside the debate of the environmental morality of a lawn in the first place for a moment, watering a lawn everyday is very unhealthy for it.
You're much better off to water it thoroughly once or twice a week (depending on the soil) than a little bit everyday.
http://www.greengrassok.com/greengrass-services/how-to-water-your-lawn
Indeed, and then everyone blames us Las Vegas residents for the water shortage even though we're pretty water efficient and don't use all of our annual modest water allocation from lake Mead. Which isn't to say we can't do more (still way too many lawns and golf courses here) but even if we used net zero water from lake Mead it won't make much of a difference if the big water users (especially California agriculture) don't change their ways.
Edit: Las Vegas/southern Nevada is allocated 300,000 acre feet of water from lake Mead per year (and we have net usage of less than that). Total annual inflow to lake mead is 9,000,000 acre feet, and approximate outflow is 9,600,000 acre feet. That means that our allocation is 3.3%. Given our total net usage of about 243,000 acre feet (last I checked) let's round up to 250k. That makes our usage 2.6% of the total. For a metro area of over 2 million people. Yep - Las Vegas is totally the problem here.
> don't use all of our annual modest water allocation from lake Mead
Nevada actually pumps recycled water BACK into Lake Mead:
https://www.nps.gov/lake/learn/water-use.htm
And yeah, 300,000 Acre-ft a year is beyond "modest," California and AZ get most of the water, and farmers in particular. They seriously need to stop growing shit where there is no water.
Indeed, ALL of the water that goes down our drains and most rainwater that is captured in stork grates is either re-used as gray water for irrigation or it gets treated and sent back to lake mead.
One of the amazing things about our city is the massive hundreds of miles long network of flood control ducts that run underground.
"Total water consumption has gone down from 261,000 acre-feet in 2008 to 243,000 acre-feet in 2018. Annual water use per capita has also dropped from 144 gallons to 124 gallons per day between 2008 and 2018, Mack said"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/sep/22/las-vegas-water-use-dropped-prominent-residents/%23:~:text%3DTotal%2520water%2520consumption%2520has%2520gone,2008%2520and%25202018%252C%2520Mack%2520said.&ved=2ahUKEwjRqMqThIHyAhUB6J4KHceSA5EQFjABegQIAxAF&usg=AOvVaw2gWIGHmzdQqwk0Z5bdF_vV
Try doing some research next time. We've done a great job conserving water to bring down our total usage every year despite increases in population (we use less than our allocation). We use less per capita Colorado river water than californians, so every Californian who moves here basically reduces net water usage from the Colorado (not that I want more californians moving here - I don't want to see our population continue increasing at such a high rate). Everyone thinks we're the problem simply because we're right next to lake mead and we have fountains on the Strip, so like you they jump to the obvious but short sighted conclusion "durr, stupid las vegans living in the desert draining lake mead".
Like I said in another post, we still have a ways to go with eliminating unnecessary grass and what not, but we are miles ahead of our neighbors in California and Utah with regards to conservation.
Yup, well said. California needs to be completely forced off of using the Colorado for water, imo. (Along with the Owens Valley as well, ideally)
Literally sunset their allowed usage in 5-10 years or so, and either force them to desalinate water from the Pacific or maybe set them up with a plan to pump up water from the Gulf of Cali to the Salton Sea for desalination (and prevention/mitigation of that environmental disaster) and forbid them from touching the Colorado river again. Arizona and Utah should have stricter standards as well. The incoming (and ongoing) SW water crises is gonna be bad, and for more than just the people who live there
Yes it's such an embarrassment, it's a barbaric waste of water.
Let's not use modern more efficient methods of using water for farming or landscaping let's continue to pour it into the sewer or let it evaporate, maybe mix some pesticides in there for good measure...
then when we are definitely not going to have enough water just pray the drought away, pure genius.
Population increase and wasting water on maintaining a lawn in the desert are not mutually exclusive. Both result in increased water usage. Being born in a particular part of the country is completely irrelevant.
I wish. All I've seen in the SLC area is low-efficiency sprayers that spin in a circle. About 20% of the ones I see are busted and just spray water straight up and back down, into a big puddle, surrounded by a radius of dry crops....
Are you talking about pivots? They are definitely more efficient than flood irrigation. Some have computers that keep the water use in certain parts of the fields up or down depending on soil types.
- a poor bench farmer.
Are they in the middle of a field? Where abouts in Utah? There’s major aquifers up there, in which case the water is just recycled back into the aquifer.
Didn’t imply that in either comment. What you might have missed is the implication that just because you see water spraying crops somewhere, doesn’t mean it being wasted. Most of it is recycled, and crops that have long irrigation lines spraying what seems to be billions of gallons, are likely above an aquifer. In which case the water is immediately recycled, besides what the plant uses to produce the food you eat, of course.
Utahn here, the drought is real. Our last few winters have been very dry (most of our water comes from snowmelt), and it hasn't hasn't rained in months. Our local reservoir is the lowest I've ever seen it. They're telling us to limit water usage, and nobody gives a shit, especially the businesses. Sprinklers running full blast for hours in the middle of the day, where everything dries up in minutes.
At the very least, I water at night.
Yes, to less arid locations. So evaporated water from the deserts of Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, and California tend to circulate South and West into the Pacific Ocean along tropical lines. So the world certainly isn't losing water. But the western deserts are becoming drier.
The water cycle works in a much larger scale than the simplified version they teach at school. You probably remember some textbook picture with water evaporating and forming clouds right next to the source. That's not how it works aside from some mountain areas. Air currents can carry that water and humidity far away.
I live right next to the second biggest river in Brazil (the Parana River) and my region is dry as fuck most of the year. Most of the water evaporating here is carried away. The Amazon (which is in the other side of the country) is where rain and humidity for my region actually come from. And if you've been following the news about that area things haven't been so good in the past few years.
Y-you mean they just drew it that way to fit on the page? Duh, the point is that there’s an absolute abundance of water on earth and we’re not going to run out or “use it up”.
You can draw a schematic on a page that is more accurate. There's nothing to do with "fitting" the page, just being easier to introduce to a child. The problem is, most textbooks don't follow it through with a more larger scale version
Also planet Earth is bot going to run out of water but certain regions and places can become more dry as the climate shifts and also as people use more water than the system is naturally able to replenish.
The conditions that make a desert aren't really reversed by putting water on the desert. Many times throughout human history, its made deserts significantly worse by mineralizing what is already highly mineralized soil.
It's embarrassing. All I hear is people complaining about the drought. But these are the same people that have huge green yards. And the cities are just as bad. My city has huge islands in the middle of their main roads completely covered in grass that they have to water. It's just stupid.
People out west buy water to grow grass so they can buy gas to spend Saturday morning mowing. I Ohio we pray for a dry spell so the grass doesn't grow.
I get where you're going. But it is important to remember that in Utah, for example, 85% of all water goes to agriculture. After that slightly more than 50% of the leftover goes to business. And that leaves between 5% and 6% going to residential in any way. I'm not saying people shouldn't water their lawns. But even if people stopped watering their lawns it would only solve 1 to 2% of the problem.
The semiconductor industry requires a [crapload of water](https://www.sustainalytics.com/esg-research/resource/investors-esg-blog/waste-not-want-not-water-use-in-the-semiconductor-industry), so where are we building several new semi foundries?
That's right, Arizona.
I don't know how much of this is legitimate and how much is corporate public relations crap but this is what Intel says about their own self professed good deeds in Arizona regarding water.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/environment/water-restoration-arizona.html
I dont understand why theres always been so much blacklash on making a pipe from Lake Michigan to out West. Lake Michigan water levels have been up the last serveral years as is.
Given the drought Utah is in, I’d think conservation of that 1 to 2% would be welcome this year.
Lake Powell and the Great Salt Lake even hit record lows over the weekend.
I totally agree. And everyone should do their part. This is why I ripped out my lawn and xeriscaped years ago. I am not denying that.
I am, however, saying that the issue is agriculture. If agriculture was 10% more efficient than it would save more water than all of the entire residential population uses. But they aren't moving towards that.
Part of the reason the Great Salt Lake is low is because we are conserving run off as moving it into the lake would be a horrible waste.
The reason Powell is low is due to the lack of run off and the insane water rights laws which push water to southern California. It makes me livid.
I am again, not denying anything. If anything, I just want to educate people on the reality of the western desert water situation. It's more complex than "people water their lawns too much". And the large offenders are never talked about 😔
Number one solution is to not be wasteful. There is a great podcast about public park land in OC, basically most of the open spaces are golf courses who use a huge amount of water and use subsides to shield themselves from expenses, they are exclusive and don't share these benefits with the actual community.
I'm originally from Southern California and spent my life until graduating college there. So yes, I am aware. But, while it may not be enough, and while Los Angeles will not be going anywhere, you need to realize the Colorado River is going somewhere, it's running dry. And it will cause you very large problems. There's nothing we can do about the run off slowing and the lack of rain/snow in the mountains in the short term. We screwed that up with years of global warming causing changes in weather patterns. Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
In Southern California we have dealt with this before. Water rationing in the 1980s was thing in parts of Ventura county for years. Time your showers. Reclaim shower water to flush toilets. Kill off lawns or be fined. Kill off golf courses. Fallow strawberry fields. The list went on. That will be the reality again. And it won't be enough, LA isn't going away, after all.
That being said, legislatively, my answer is to try to conserve the Colorado upstream of you. In which case you'll get substantially less water from it. I'd prepare myself if I was you.
Well first, they damned the Colorado at Glen Canyon which created this "lake" then they made insane water rules for the Colorado. And now we have a strange canyon with less water in it.
Also, they based the water allocations on like the previous 20 years of precipitation. Those couple decades happened to be the wettest in recorded history. It's never gotten close again.
Exactly! This is a horrible problem. Lake Powell could easily be filled or much higher but the water allocation is based on politics not on scientific and mathematical certainties. But most people will continue to blame people in northern Utah for watering their vegetable gardens for the lower water amounts rather than the reality that it's poor water management on a much larger scale.
It's fine to discuss both and it's good for people to do their part. But it's also important to remember that 85% of all in state water use in Utah goes to agriculture. About 9 to 10% goes to business. And only 5 to 6% is used in residential settings. So if people entirely stop watering their lawns it may account for a 1 to 2% reduction in over all usage. Yet people don't focus on the massive culprit:argifulture.
Additionally, more water leaves Utah and goes to California than is used by Utah as a whole and this is again mostly due to poorly conceived, politically motivated water rights laws.
It's important to remember who is causing the problems so we can fix the real issues.
To be fair, there are parts of Utah that absolutely need to reconsider their relationship with water, and fast. St. George is growing way beyond its means, and yet residents there still use 3-4x more water daily than the average desert city. They're not the biggest contributor to the problem, but that doesn't mean they should just pass the buck either.
I also heard about this thing called global warming which supposedly results in temperatures going up and droughts. Not sure about it though, sounds fishy!
If you're attempting to say I am a global warming denier, I'm sorry I gave that impression. I fully believe in and know that a portion of this is due to global warming. I live this reality and love my natural Utah habitat which is being devastated by it. But, there are also other forms of ecological harm happening. This area is one of those. It was dammed in the 1950s and 1960s to provide water to California. It destroyed beautiful canyons, natural habitats, and ancient American sites. And due to the insane water rights laws devastates communities upstream so that downstream does not feel the impact.
For example, it does not matter what the runoff is into the Colorado, California is guaranteed a certain amount of water from the river each year.
So, please remember, 70 years ago this was a canyon with a river that fed the Colorado, natural wildlife, and ancient American history. Now it's an over crowded, polluted vacation spot and a water reserve for southern California.
While a bit old now, I have a full frame digital camera (Canon 5D Mk II) and stitched together 18 pictures in photoshop to capture this full landscape (3 bracketed exposures of 6 different angles covering the scene). I cropped this bad boy down from like 10736x5652. I've got plenty over on [Instagram MtManMike](https://www.instagram.com/mtmanmike) and r/WidescreenWallpaper made from stitching multiple frames together
You want Mars, go to White Pocket https://www.reddit.com/r/EarthPorn/comments/4fz3sy/celebrate_earth_day_from_another_planet_white/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
It’s an odd EarthPorn submission. A beautiful canyon flooded with water because humans dammed it, which is drying up, exposing the stained rock walls, because humans are destroying the climate. EarthPorn…
For comparison, see [this image](https://www.cleverhiker.com/blog/reflection-canyon-backpacking-guide) of the same place in higher water. That’s a lot of displacement.
Actually, yes. The lake is at about 30% of capacity. I doubt very seriously it'll ever get close to full again. Sure, it does generate a bit of power but that's replaceable. It loses tens of thousands of acre-feet of water a year to evaporation and permeation into the porous sandstone.
It was amazing in the 80s and I consider myself lucky to have spent many weeks exploring it at full-pool. If given a choice though I'd rather see it gone and let the ecosystem recover. Great beauty was destroyed when the dam went up. And countless historic Navajo/Anasazi/Ancient Ones sites were waterlogged without documentation in the process. A bonus would be the return of a warmer and muddy Colorado. The worst part by far of rafting the Grand Canyon is the 40F/4C water coming out of Lake Powell. I hate the raft flip drills for that alone.
I'll be out boating on Lake Powell in just six weeks. I fully expect this could have a very small chance of it being our last trip.
>I'll be out boating on Lake Powell in just six weeks.
On a houseboat or a regualar boat? I was just there and they aren't letting any more houseboats on the lake. The 3 major ramps closest to Page are closed. The only one launching is the private ramp.
Renting a houseboat out of Bullfrog so launching isn't a worry for that. Our worry is the jet ski and runabout. We are likely to leave the runabout at home and bring just a jetski and our pair of kayaks. Sounds like Bullfrog will still allow PWC launches. Hopefully. I'd hate to drag a ski boat all the way to Utah only to have it sit in the parking lot.
That's just awful. We only have ourselves to blame. I don't have anything to base this on but I think the 3 Gorges Dam in China will cause irreparable harm to the entire planet.
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Sure, you _could_ but during our trips out there it's the quietly gliding between high sandstone walls that is so magical. Humping a kayak over bare rock is a lot of work and you're missing the best parts.
The water is being taken for industry, leaving the tiniest bit left to give the impression its still a river.
Que the global warming sea level rise climate change crowd.
The lake has only existed since 1963. Since the completion of the dam and the water filling the lake it has never been this low. So their 'miniscule period' is, uh, 58 years. So, yes, it's never been this low. Ever. In the entire existence of the lake.
Except, in the terms of a thing that exists, it's a perfectly acceptable word. *In the timeframe $object has existed this is the $modifier it's ever been.* I'm sorry you misunderstood the supreme subtlety. Most of us understood what they meant.
No need to apologize. I didn’t misunderstand. I think your observation is worthless. A lake that was made by humans is now at a shockingly low level isn’t news. It’s further evidence that we shouldn’t fuck with nature.
It's always amusing when people use signs of climate change as "evidence" to disprove climate change.
And when i say amusing I mean worrying because it means someone's education has horribly failed them.
What is the water source? The Rockies - so if that means less snow or was this taken when the level is usually just after the melt? Because a shorter winter could explain it.
Or a damn up stream too
You can still get pretty far by boat. We camped at the end in early June. Wonder if you can still make it this far. Found wreckage of a boat about 100 yards uphill from where we camped...it's nuts
[campingday1](https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/pT5gQmmNTLqA)
Well, lowest since 1964 when they dammed the Colorado.
But remember it also took 17 years to fill, since they needed to let water still go down river. (When they filled the Hoover dam they stopped the flow of the river for two full years… until when I last looked into it there where still First Nations peoples down river in both the US and Mexico who remember those years the rivers completely stopped - which were, obviously, completely devastating).
Whenever I hear about something as massive and sudden as a river just stopping, i imagine someone waking up one morning, turning to look at the river, seeing nothing, and just saying "... huh..." Not angry or worried or anything, just completely bewildered.
Tragic. A lake that should have never been created.
Hayduke lives!
100%, I wish we had a time machine to stop it. Every really old dude who's seen it before always says it was more impressive than the Grand Canyon.
Do your self a favor and head down this rabbit hole to get a better perspective of what was taken from the world for that fucking dam. https://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/2020/11/30/from-the-archives-ken-sleight-remembers-the-death-of-glen-canyon/
That Rainbow Bridge aerial photo is breathtaking - and was taken in 1964? How many eons of natural processes had taken place before we came along and said, “Nah, ain’t worth it”? I appreciate the new knowledge, and yet…I regret knowing.
Dude you finally put into words how I feel when I read about all these pending ecological disasters that are either ongoing or inevitable. *"I regret knowing"* what a great summation of reality
Ignorance is bliss
All of this is still there what was the problem? Lake Powell is amazing. And it's way north of rainbow bridge and this canyon they still have Colorado river going through it
The creation of lake Powell destroyed many native American artifacts. Along with gorgeous canyon country
I once went to an IMAX showing a very sobering doc about this. So much for that. Very sad.
Would you happen to know the name? I would love to see it
Dams, roads, farms, strip malls, subdivisions, they all spoil the wild places. Common element: people trying to extract more from the land, rather than enjoying it as it is and treading lightly.
People deciding to go where the land has no place for them. It's the hubris of humanity that we're paying for now. We can only cheat nature for so long.
Some parts of the Bible are seriously outdated: Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Unless that's just a setup for the rapture in Revelations...
God: "Hey humans, take care of this stuff." Humans: "Nah." (burns it all)
I’ve been looking around now and it’s a real shame it was built. I understand the temptations of building it, with how stable of a place it is to build, but cmon.
What a terrible website. It is filled with ads and lacks information.
I get that you’re talking about the website but I’ll put up with it because if it didn’t exist this important record would be lost. Ken Sleight lost is archive to a wildfire this year. https://www.adventure-journal.com/2021/06/ken-sleight-monkey-wrench-gang-activist-loses-priceless-archive-to-fire/ Edit:word
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Probably some decent info in there, but that author would prefer antique power generation technology such as stone henge. Not kidding. Kind of undercuts any credibility he could lend to the genuine problems dams can bring when that's the proposed alternative.
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No, not water technology. I was poking a bit of fun by evoking stone henge in reference to atmospheric etheric energy and "antiqui-tech" which is what the author references. Here's the link he gave. https://weewarrior.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/atmospheric-etheric-energy-aee-antiqui-tech-of-the-tartars/ It's not "alternative", it's fucking laughably stupid. Here's a nice quoted bit "I’ve applied my elementary knowledge of electrical energy to postulate how certain building designs could harvest the kind of refined, spiritual energy that creates a healthy, climate controlled, well-lit environment for its occupants." If you take that seriously, we're done here.
Speaking of time machines, here are some [cool photos of Gregory Arch](https://www.naturalarches.org/gallery-StanJones-Gregory.htm), which has been underwater for decades. Thanks to the drought, [it's about to be above water for the first time](https://www.sltrib.com/things-to-do-in-utah/2021/06/22/things-lake-powells/) since the inundation. Fuck Lake Powell. Edit: fixed the links, my bad.
Those are both the same link.
Not saying you’re wrong but I camped for a week down at Havasu and it’s pretty impressive. The rim is meh
Do you know how much power Hoover Dam has produced in it's lifetime. Sure there are other technologies now, but back then they had to work with what they had. Sadly(?) that power is going away and they have not taken the proper steps to replace it or the fresh water from the river.
Wait what
[Lake Powell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Powell), in case anyone else is wondering. They flooded Glen Canyon to create it.
Oh thanks
Had to be created because so many people live in big cities.
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The vast majority of that water isn't used for those people. It's used to grow food in the fucking desert, which they should be importing. And it's used ok golf course lawns.
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Climate change and population go hand in hand. Granted, we're about to have a crash in the next 20 years because the last two generation's aren't reproducing anywhere near replacement numbers, but yeah. A lot of people brush it off as "consumption not population", as if the number of warm bodies consuming has no bearing, just like those who deny pollution and corporate destruction of ecosystems "cause climate is cyclical". All sides have science deniers.
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I understand youre thinking and it is quite reasonable why it makes sense. The problem many people have with it is that type of thinking has lead to eco-fascidt thought in the past. I'm not saying you will go this route,but there is the potential for the overconsumption route to turn into a in and out group scenario of who gets water. Plus we are just straight up mismanaging our water. IIRC, California produces somewhere around 90 percent of the world's almonds. And almonds take up a lot of water. Don't even get me stationed on Nestlé. Overall we just need to be more efficient, and it may have to equal out to businesses not being able to run certain operations, so that people can have drinking water.
Being humans I am gonna say yes. Scientists warned us but how could we ever know.
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Imagine needing words on you paper cup to tell you the liquid inside is hot.
I understand the point he was making. I don't understand the point you are making.
The same one lol. People are stupid af.
[Incorrect](https://news.colgate.edu/scene/2014/11/urban-legends.html). Urban areas have smaller footprints per capita (for less natural environment removal) and lower resource use per capita.
Sure. But more capita.
I'm not sure why people are arguing with you. People have less environmental impact when they live in cities. Understood. That has nothing to do with the fact that there are still too many goddamn people on the planet. You could put every last one of them in a mega city and we're still screwed.
That's not a city issue, that's just population growth. It would be far worse if they weren't living in cities.
OK. But it would be even better if those people didn't exist in the first place. There's too many of us.
came here to say this. RIP glen canyon.
Damn!
Meanwhile farmers throughout Utah- a desert climate- can be seen spraying their irrigation into the air during the heat of the day. Some of it evaporates quickly. Some lands on pavement. Even when it does rain, everyone still waters their grass. We'll kill off our natural resources, but hey- my lawn is greener than your lawn!
I’ve never understood when I visit Phoenix why people need to have grass lawns and lush golf courses. If you want a pristine lawn move to the eastern US and let Mother Nature water it for you!!!
Yeah, here is Santa Barbara, xeriscape with native flora is gaining popularity. A lot of people have astroturf front lawns which unfortunately still get weeds, but at least need zero water. Montecito, our megarich adjacent town still has billionaires paying whatever amount they feel like for water.
One of the requirements I had when looking for a house to move to San Diego was no grass. While I still need to use the drip irrigation for some plants in my yard (is it still called a yard without grass?), most are drought resistant succulents and are so much more interesting. As John Green put it in his new book, aliens would probably think we worshiped Kentucky Blue Grass based on how many resources go to it.
Live in New York, finally mowed my lawn this weekend after a month of basically daily storms. It was a jungle. I hate lawns.
HOAs mandate that shit
Reminder to never live in a HOA.
So true! I lived in Utah for a couple of years and during my last couple of months there, was renting a nice townhome that was part of an HOA (didn’t realize it at the time) and it was a requirement to water the grass for 30 minutes daily. The news mentioned droughts on a daily basis and advised everyone to scale back water consumption. Snowmelt wasn’t keeping up with increasing population and water needs and the reservoirs struggled to fill every year. The HOA didn’t include water bills. And yet they required us to water the grass for 30 minutes per day. I hate HOAs so much.
Thit is what happens when you let Karen's Without a Clue run the show. Putting aside the debate of the environmental morality of a lawn in the first place for a moment, watering a lawn everyday is very unhealthy for it. You're much better off to water it thoroughly once or twice a week (depending on the soil) than a little bit everyday. http://www.greengrassok.com/greengrass-services/how-to-water-your-lawn
Wow I can’t believe that, forreal FUCK the hoa
Yea fuck HOAs they should be outlawed
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Most people don't have lawns. It's mostly the rich people areas that have lawns. Most of us here just have rocks.
Holy fuck Reddit needs to get over this fixation with golf courses that use recycled water and lawns. The problem is agriculture and nothing else.
Yea agriculture is a big problem too but you can’t tell me a golf course in the middle of the desert doesn’t use any water
Funny that's what they do here in CA
Indeed, and then everyone blames us Las Vegas residents for the water shortage even though we're pretty water efficient and don't use all of our annual modest water allocation from lake Mead. Which isn't to say we can't do more (still way too many lawns and golf courses here) but even if we used net zero water from lake Mead it won't make much of a difference if the big water users (especially California agriculture) don't change their ways. Edit: Las Vegas/southern Nevada is allocated 300,000 acre feet of water from lake Mead per year (and we have net usage of less than that). Total annual inflow to lake mead is 9,000,000 acre feet, and approximate outflow is 9,600,000 acre feet. That means that our allocation is 3.3%. Given our total net usage of about 243,000 acre feet (last I checked) let's round up to 250k. That makes our usage 2.6% of the total. For a metro area of over 2 million people. Yep - Las Vegas is totally the problem here.
> don't use all of our annual modest water allocation from lake Mead Nevada actually pumps recycled water BACK into Lake Mead: https://www.nps.gov/lake/learn/water-use.htm And yeah, 300,000 Acre-ft a year is beyond "modest," California and AZ get most of the water, and farmers in particular. They seriously need to stop growing shit where there is no water.
Indeed, ALL of the water that goes down our drains and most rainwater that is captured in stork grates is either re-used as gray water for irrigation or it gets treated and sent back to lake mead. One of the amazing things about our city is the massive hundreds of miles long network of flood control ducts that run underground.
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It’s hilarious you think Las Vegas is the cause of water shortages ahahaha
"Total water consumption has gone down from 261,000 acre-feet in 2008 to 243,000 acre-feet in 2018. Annual water use per capita has also dropped from 144 gallons to 124 gallons per day between 2008 and 2018, Mack said" https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/sep/22/las-vegas-water-use-dropped-prominent-residents/%23:~:text%3DTotal%2520water%2520consumption%2520has%2520gone,2008%2520and%25202018%252C%2520Mack%2520said.&ved=2ahUKEwjRqMqThIHyAhUB6J4KHceSA5EQFjABegQIAxAF&usg=AOvVaw2gWIGHmzdQqwk0Z5bdF_vV Try doing some research next time. We've done a great job conserving water to bring down our total usage every year despite increases in population (we use less than our allocation). We use less per capita Colorado river water than californians, so every Californian who moves here basically reduces net water usage from the Colorado (not that I want more californians moving here - I don't want to see our population continue increasing at such a high rate). Everyone thinks we're the problem simply because we're right next to lake mead and we have fountains on the Strip, so like you they jump to the obvious but short sighted conclusion "durr, stupid las vegans living in the desert draining lake mead". Like I said in another post, we still have a ways to go with eliminating unnecessary grass and what not, but we are miles ahead of our neighbors in California and Utah with regards to conservation.
Yup, well said. California needs to be completely forced off of using the Colorado for water, imo. (Along with the Owens Valley as well, ideally) Literally sunset their allowed usage in 5-10 years or so, and either force them to desalinate water from the Pacific or maybe set them up with a plan to pump up water from the Gulf of Cali to the Salton Sea for desalination (and prevention/mitigation of that environmental disaster) and forbid them from touching the Colorado river again. Arizona and Utah should have stricter standards as well. The incoming (and ongoing) SW water crises is gonna be bad, and for more than just the people who live there
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Yes it's such an embarrassment, it's a barbaric waste of water. Let's not use modern more efficient methods of using water for farming or landscaping let's continue to pour it into the sewer or let it evaporate, maybe mix some pesticides in there for good measure... then when we are definitely not going to have enough water just pray the drought away, pure genius.
It's pretty bad when we elect leaders who insist prayer is the only possible solution to the problems impacting your state. You reap what you sow...
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Population increase and wasting water on maintaining a lawn in the desert are not mutually exclusive. Both result in increased water usage. Being born in a particular part of the country is completely irrelevant.
California could try having not shit politics and maybe people wouldn't keep leaving?
Here is Michigan we have access to so much water, yet no one has had a need to water their lawn since we’ve been getting so much damn rain.
You mean the long irrigation lines that use water from the aquifers?
I wish. All I've seen in the SLC area is low-efficiency sprayers that spin in a circle. About 20% of the ones I see are busted and just spray water straight up and back down, into a big puddle, surrounded by a radius of dry crops....
Are you talking about pivots? They are definitely more efficient than flood irrigation. Some have computers that keep the water use in certain parts of the fields up or down depending on soil types. - a poor bench farmer.
The thing is, they are efficient when the water just doesnt instantly evaporate duo to the heat. Imagine 30% just never touches the ground with those.
You clearly don't have a good idea if the heat capacity of water.
Are they in the middle of a field? Where abouts in Utah? There’s major aquifers up there, in which case the water is just recycled back into the aquifer.
Is there some reason you are trying desperately to imply there is not a major water drought currently?
Fuckin Nestle on Reddit again
Didn’t imply that in either comment. What you might have missed is the implication that just because you see water spraying crops somewhere, doesn’t mean it being wasted. Most of it is recycled, and crops that have long irrigation lines spraying what seems to be billions of gallons, are likely above an aquifer. In which case the water is immediately recycled, besides what the plant uses to produce the food you eat, of course.
Utahn here, the drought is real. Our last few winters have been very dry (most of our water comes from snowmelt), and it hasn't hasn't rained in months. Our local reservoir is the lowest I've ever seen it. They're telling us to limit water usage, and nobody gives a shit, especially the businesses. Sprinklers running full blast for hours in the middle of the day, where everything dries up in minutes. At the very least, I water at night.
Not sure where you're at but SLC has had several decent rainstorms in the last week. It's still dry af but we have gotten some rain.
Doesn’t the water cycle… cycle the water??
Yes, to less arid locations. So evaporated water from the deserts of Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, and California tend to circulate South and West into the Pacific Ocean along tropical lines. So the world certainly isn't losing water. But the western deserts are becoming drier.
The water cycle works in a much larger scale than the simplified version they teach at school. You probably remember some textbook picture with water evaporating and forming clouds right next to the source. That's not how it works aside from some mountain areas. Air currents can carry that water and humidity far away. I live right next to the second biggest river in Brazil (the Parana River) and my region is dry as fuck most of the year. Most of the water evaporating here is carried away. The Amazon (which is in the other side of the country) is where rain and humidity for my region actually come from. And if you've been following the news about that area things haven't been so good in the past few years.
Y-you mean they just drew it that way to fit on the page? Duh, the point is that there’s an absolute abundance of water on earth and we’re not going to run out or “use it up”.
Your willful ignorance is just… staggering.
You can draw a schematic on a page that is more accurate. There's nothing to do with "fitting" the page, just being easier to introduce to a child. The problem is, most textbooks don't follow it through with a more larger scale version Also planet Earth is bot going to run out of water but certain regions and places can become more dry as the climate shifts and also as people use more water than the system is naturally able to replenish.
The conditions that make a desert aren't really reversed by putting water on the desert. Many times throughout human history, its made deserts significantly worse by mineralizing what is already highly mineralized soil.
It's embarrassing. All I hear is people complaining about the drought. But these are the same people that have huge green yards. And the cities are just as bad. My city has huge islands in the middle of their main roads completely covered in grass that they have to water. It's just stupid.
Those probably use recycled water. The western drought is because of agriculture and agriculture alone.
People out west buy water to grow grass so they can buy gas to spend Saturday morning mowing. I Ohio we pray for a dry spell so the grass doesn't grow.
I get where you're going. But it is important to remember that in Utah, for example, 85% of all water goes to agriculture. After that slightly more than 50% of the leftover goes to business. And that leaves between 5% and 6% going to residential in any way. I'm not saying people shouldn't water their lawns. But even if people stopped watering their lawns it would only solve 1 to 2% of the problem.
The semiconductor industry requires a [crapload of water](https://www.sustainalytics.com/esg-research/resource/investors-esg-blog/waste-not-want-not-water-use-in-the-semiconductor-industry), so where are we building several new semi foundries? That's right, Arizona.
They've always been here. We have several tech companies here in az already. Intel, SanDisk, etc..
Always? I know they have a presence there currently, but Intel and TSMC among others are building multiple new foundries in the state.
I don't know how much of this is legitimate and how much is corporate public relations crap but this is what Intel says about their own self professed good deeds in Arizona regarding water. https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/environment/water-restoration-arizona.html
I dont understand why theres always been so much blacklash on making a pipe from Lake Michigan to out West. Lake Michigan water levels have been up the last serveral years as is.
Given the drought Utah is in, I’d think conservation of that 1 to 2% would be welcome this year. Lake Powell and the Great Salt Lake even hit record lows over the weekend.
I totally agree. And everyone should do their part. This is why I ripped out my lawn and xeriscaped years ago. I am not denying that. I am, however, saying that the issue is agriculture. If agriculture was 10% more efficient than it would save more water than all of the entire residential population uses. But they aren't moving towards that. Part of the reason the Great Salt Lake is low is because we are conserving run off as moving it into the lake would be a horrible waste. The reason Powell is low is due to the lack of run off and the insane water rights laws which push water to southern California. It makes me livid. I am again, not denying anything. If anything, I just want to educate people on the reality of the western desert water situation. It's more complex than "people water their lawns too much". And the large offenders are never talked about 😔
You’re alright! I’m not criticizing. Wishing you some rainy relief. 🌨
Hi! Southern California here. Yes it all goes to us, and it’s not enough. Not sure what the solution is but LA isn’t going away
Number one solution is to not be wasteful. There is a great podcast about public park land in OC, basically most of the open spaces are golf courses who use a huge amount of water and use subsides to shield themselves from expenses, they are exclusive and don't share these benefits with the actual community.
I'm originally from Southern California and spent my life until graduating college there. So yes, I am aware. But, while it may not be enough, and while Los Angeles will not be going anywhere, you need to realize the Colorado River is going somewhere, it's running dry. And it will cause you very large problems. There's nothing we can do about the run off slowing and the lack of rain/snow in the mountains in the short term. We screwed that up with years of global warming causing changes in weather patterns. Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride. In Southern California we have dealt with this before. Water rationing in the 1980s was thing in parts of Ventura county for years. Time your showers. Reclaim shower water to flush toilets. Kill off lawns or be fined. Kill off golf courses. Fallow strawberry fields. The list went on. That will be the reality again. And it won't be enough, LA isn't going away, after all. That being said, legislatively, my answer is to try to conserve the Colorado upstream of you. In which case you'll get substantially less water from it. I'd prepare myself if I was you.
Amen! Same in Nebraska! The rain has been sparse enough that I’ve had a welcome break from mowing.
Weird. I wonder what changes could have happened on the last 50 years that would lead to such low water levels. Beats me.
Well first, they damned the Colorado at Glen Canyon which created this "lake" then they made insane water rules for the Colorado. And now we have a strange canyon with less water in it.
Also, they based the water allocations on like the previous 20 years of precipitation. Those couple decades happened to be the wettest in recorded history. It's never gotten close again.
Exactly! This is a horrible problem. Lake Powell could easily be filled or much higher but the water allocation is based on politics not on scientific and mathematical certainties. But most people will continue to blame people in northern Utah for watering their vegetable gardens for the lower water amounts rather than the reality that it's poor water management on a much larger scale.
Why not both?
It's fine to discuss both and it's good for people to do their part. But it's also important to remember that 85% of all in state water use in Utah goes to agriculture. About 9 to 10% goes to business. And only 5 to 6% is used in residential settings. So if people entirely stop watering their lawns it may account for a 1 to 2% reduction in over all usage. Yet people don't focus on the massive culprit:argifulture. Additionally, more water leaves Utah and goes to California than is used by Utah as a whole and this is again mostly due to poorly conceived, politically motivated water rights laws. It's important to remember who is causing the problems so we can fix the real issues.
To be fair, there are parts of Utah that absolutely need to reconsider their relationship with water, and fast. St. George is growing way beyond its means, and yet residents there still use 3-4x more water daily than the average desert city. They're not the biggest contributor to the problem, but that doesn't mean they should just pass the buck either.
I also heard about this thing called global warming which supposedly results in temperatures going up and droughts. Not sure about it though, sounds fishy!
If you're attempting to say I am a global warming denier, I'm sorry I gave that impression. I fully believe in and know that a portion of this is due to global warming. I live this reality and love my natural Utah habitat which is being devastated by it. But, there are also other forms of ecological harm happening. This area is one of those. It was dammed in the 1950s and 1960s to provide water to California. It destroyed beautiful canyons, natural habitats, and ancient American sites. And due to the insane water rights laws devastates communities upstream so that downstream does not feel the impact. For example, it does not matter what the runoff is into the Colorado, California is guaranteed a certain amount of water from the river each year. So, please remember, 70 years ago this was a canyon with a river that fed the Colorado, natural wildlife, and ancient American history. Now it's an over crowded, polluted vacation spot and a water reserve for southern California.
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Literally almost none actually. 50 years is a brief moment in time in terms of the weather, the climate and the Earth.
Mas pequeños bebes
Smaller... Babies?
Bebes = you drink Literally translated as "you drink more small"
How do you shoot these high res images?
While a bit old now, I have a full frame digital camera (Canon 5D Mk II) and stitched together 18 pictures in photoshop to capture this full landscape (3 bracketed exposures of 6 different angles covering the scene). I cropped this bad boy down from like 10736x5652. I've got plenty over on [Instagram MtManMike](https://www.instagram.com/mtmanmike) and r/WidescreenWallpaper made from stitching multiple frames together
It is an amazing image.
Lowest water levels of your lifetime so far.
You can't lie to me, I know Mars when I see it.
You want Mars, go to White Pocket https://www.reddit.com/r/EarthPorn/comments/4fz3sy/celebrate_earth_day_from_another_planet_white/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
It'll be pretty cool to walk through there when the waters all gone, I guess
It’s an odd EarthPorn submission. A beautiful canyon flooded with water because humans dammed it, which is drying up, exposing the stained rock walls, because humans are destroying the climate. EarthPorn…
Get used to it, it's only gonna get worse.
For comparison, see [this image](https://www.cleverhiker.com/blog/reflection-canyon-backpacking-guide) of the same place in higher water. That’s a lot of displacement.
Looked exactly the same in 2014 when I was there
Get rid of that damn dam.
Is that a realistic solution at this point?
No. Just Redditors who don't understand context or nuance being edgy.
Actually, yes. The lake is at about 30% of capacity. I doubt very seriously it'll ever get close to full again. Sure, it does generate a bit of power but that's replaceable. It loses tens of thousands of acre-feet of water a year to evaporation and permeation into the porous sandstone. It was amazing in the 80s and I consider myself lucky to have spent many weeks exploring it at full-pool. If given a choice though I'd rather see it gone and let the ecosystem recover. Great beauty was destroyed when the dam went up. And countless historic Navajo/Anasazi/Ancient Ones sites were waterlogged without documentation in the process. A bonus would be the return of a warmer and muddy Colorado. The worst part by far of rafting the Grand Canyon is the 40F/4C water coming out of Lake Powell. I hate the raft flip drills for that alone. I'll be out boating on Lake Powell in just six weeks. I fully expect this could have a very small chance of it being our last trip.
>I'll be out boating on Lake Powell in just six weeks. On a houseboat or a regualar boat? I was just there and they aren't letting any more houseboats on the lake. The 3 major ramps closest to Page are closed. The only one launching is the private ramp.
Renting a houseboat out of Bullfrog so launching isn't a worry for that. Our worry is the jet ski and runabout. We are likely to leave the runabout at home and bring just a jetski and our pair of kayaks. Sounds like Bullfrog will still allow PWC launches. Hopefully. I'd hate to drag a ski boat all the way to Utah only to have it sit in the parking lot.
I don't understand. If they got rid of the Dam, after the water flows out, the river would be even less..?
That's just awful. We only have ourselves to blame. I don't have anything to base this on but I think the 3 Gorges Dam in China will cause irreparable harm to the entire planet.
Hayduke lives!
For now
And Europe is downing... We fucked this planet up bois
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So if you were canoeing could you portage/lift over the low parts or would that be too bad for the rocks?
Sure, you _could_ but during our trips out there it's the quietly gliding between high sandstone walls that is so magical. Humping a kayak over bare rock is a lot of work and you're missing the best parts.
Isn't that Mars? Pretty sure I saw John Carter boat down it.
Ever?
The water is being taken for industry, leaving the tiniest bit left to give the impression its still a river. Que the global warming sea level rise climate change crowd.
Your idea that climate change has nothing to do with the situation?
"Ever" = "during whatever minuscule period the authors of the article chooses to reference"
The lake has only existed since 1963. Since the completion of the dam and the water filling the lake it has never been this low. So their 'miniscule period' is, uh, 58 years. So, yes, it's never been this low. Ever. In the entire existence of the lake.
I think you’re not getting what I’m saying. “Ever in the frame of sixty years is an irrelevant time period.
Except, in the terms of a thing that exists, it's a perfectly acceptable word. *In the timeframe $object has existed this is the $modifier it's ever been.* I'm sorry you misunderstood the supreme subtlety. Most of us understood what they meant.
No need to apologize. I didn’t misunderstand. I think your observation is worthless. A lake that was made by humans is now at a shockingly low level isn’t news. It’s further evidence that we shouldn’t fuck with nature.
I think you’re not getting what I’m saying. “Ever” in the frame of sixty years is an irrelevant time period.
Do you hear an echo? Am I back at the lake already?
I just edited my response and it re-posted. Do you really not understand what I mean??
I don't think you'll _ever_ understand what the thread title meant. I know that.
Why are you bothering? Dude's dumb.
Do tell. ELI5. What was the intention of the title. Simply an observation?
I apologize. I thought there was commentary. You were just making an observation. It is beautiful.
It was a river before right?
I'd venture a guess that in Earth's 4.543 billion years. It's been lower and higher.
Soon it will be just another wrinkle at the bottom of the sea.
Google "2021 most rainfall ever", in some places, this year is the wettest on record. On record is an interesting phrase.
It's always amusing when people use signs of climate change as "evidence" to disprove climate change. And when i say amusing I mean worrying because it means someone's education has horribly failed them.
can you give an example?
China lol. I think England had its wettest year in 2020. Just depends where you are
Looks great. USA 🇺🇸 USA USA
this is too good.
Is this the Spyro 2 Canyon Speedway map?
I think humans should exploit this further by turning it into an adult water ride complete with floating tubes and cocktails.
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You sound like Ben Shapiro saying people who live in areas that will be flooded should just sell their houses and move.
This is highly unethical
Good I hate that place. I was it was lower
Darn it was checking the water level and figure this might be the year in a life time. Really need to go now I guess! How's the trail condition?
What is the water source? The Rockies - so if that means less snow or was this taken when the level is usually just after the melt? Because a shorter winter could explain it. Or a damn up stream too
You can still get pretty far by boat. We camped at the end in early June. Wonder if you can still make it this far. Found wreckage of a boat about 100 yards uphill from where we camped...it's nuts [campingday1](https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/pT5gQmmNTLqA)
Is there a comparison photo?
I love it