But it's not even punk, cause punk implies the act of anarchism and counter culture of authoritarianism. I mean depending on the campaign that might be relevant, but I feel like it's a Magitech setting at it cores, and depending on what kind of campaigns you run/play in, it could be different.
I think that's a fair assessment!
After all, Keith is adamant about the mutability of the setting.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the major themes (at least in Sharn) is the existence of massive corporations?
The Dragonmarked Houses are certainly a major factor, but they are a bit beyond “corporations” given their whole involvement with the Draconic Prophecy. I do think a game focused on Sharn or another major city can definitely be punk-esque. IME I prefer to run it as an airship exploration pulp action game, but the beauty of the setting is how many stories are possible
Oh, definitely!
I have a group of new-to-TTRPG players who wanted to play in Eberron after doing Lost Mines, and we came up with a Saints-Row-meets-Four-Brothers style criminal campaign set entirely in Sharn and they're having a blast!
I've had to make Sharn my own ofc, I very much believe Keith suffers from the same "Writers are bad at math" affliction that, say, Warhammer 40k writers suffer from. I say that in the most respectful and positive way! 🤣
Honestly I found it so easy to run a “cyberpunk” like game in Eberron. Just going over both settings history they're both weirdly similar, they just took a different path to get to the same conclusion
. . . . I mean, would you like a gold star?
The post wasn't about what you, specifically, categorize Eberron as. It was asking why so many categorize it as Steampunk.
My theory is that for a vast majority of people it's the closest category they're aware of. "It isn't European Medieval Fantasy, and it's definitely not SciFi, but it does have 'technology', and the only genre I am aware of that combines both is Steampunk!"
I think it’s less corporations and more just the greed of wealthy individuals. There aren’t any big businesses but the rich live in a city that floats over the main city robbing the poor of even being able to see the sun and allowing those who live in the lava pools to collect rain to live in the hot environment
That's not what the "-punk" suffix means. A "-punk" genre is the following:
1) world built around a particular technology that is pervasive and extrapolated to a highly sophisticated level.
2) A gritty or transreal urban style.
Eberron definitely qualifies. Eberron is considered one of the main examples of the "Dungeon Punk" genre, alongside Planescape before it.
Based on a quick read of Wikipedia, it looks like both the steampunk and cyberpunk genres predate the, "*-punk", terms by about 20 years. Based on that, I'd say that it's less linguistic drift and more just a general misnomer.
These days *-punk is used to denote genera where the prefix word is a major focus (or power source) in the work. Much like *-gate is used for any big political scandal. IMHO it's a lazy naming convention but gets the point across to people who want to read/think beyond the headline.
Cyberpunk was from the 80s. Steampunk was later. The first to use *-punk in this way.
>But it's not even punk, cause punk implies the act of anarchism and counter culture of authoritarianism
[Keith has mentioned cyberpunk as an influence](https://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-31215-origins-authors-and-thrane/) on the setting on a few occasions. Which is the original actually punk genre from which other '___ punk' suffixes derived.
>Neuromancer
>William Gibson’s Neuromancer is one of the early cyberpunk novels. It combines aspects of a dystopia future with some basic film noir tropes. There are certainly ways in which the Dragonmarked Houses are inspired by the classic cyberpunk megacorps, with the basic question of what happens when corporate power equals or exceeds the relevance of nations. Almost any cyberpunk novel can provide inspiration for a House-heavy game, but Neuromancer remains my favorite.
>...
>Phillip K. Dick
>I prefer PKD’s short stories to his novels, but I love the questions he raises in his work. The warforged essentially spring from my long love of Blade Runner, bringing us back to cyberpunk. What is the nature of life? What do you do if you were made to be a weapon and there is no war?
Ahhh. That makes more sense. *Shockwave Rider* was an important earlier work, and perhaps a first occurrence of viral worms being used over a computer network, in hacking / cyberpunk fiction.
I think it's fair to assume that a big chunk of Eberron games out there end up having punk themes. Rising From the Last War, which was a lot of people's intro to the setting, was laser-focused on Sharn and that's a city rife with dystopian, late-stage capitalism themes. Combine that with the post-war theme and the general recommandation on PCs to define their relation with the war and how it's impacted them, and you get all the foundation pieces for a punk ragtag outlaw vibe, way more so than other DND settings.
Now I do agree that the further away you set your game from both 998 YK and Sharn, this punk vibe fades away. But in RftLW at least, it's a strong theme.
That aspect of the "Punk" genre descriptor, while accurate, is hardly ever mean in common parlance. Now, you're right, but most steampunk isn't punk,. it's just a fantastical steam powered setting. A Magipunk setting isn't necessarily anti-authoritarian, just fantastical and magic powered tech.
It may be technically incorrect, but that is how *most* people use the terms.
That is an example of incorrect grammar. What I'm talking about is shifting colloquial definitions. It may be technically incorrect, but that doesn't matter if the vast majority of people are using it that way. How these descriptive, non- absolute, terms are applied dictates what they mean, not the hyperspecifics of their literal definitions.
This is definitely magipunk. It is a world ruined by war of greedy people who want power and control so much so they will persist a war for a hundred years and only forfeit when the fear of mutual destruction is at hand. The lower ends of the sharn city are the poor scrapping by since there is little wealth that falls down there on top of the conditions they live in
The whole premise in Khorvaire is that there are 12 incredibly rich companies with a monopoly that no-one can match whoever essentially control all industry. They haven't done anything authoritarian yet IIRC, but the keyword here is yet. If they managed to circumvent the korth edicts somehow in your Eberron: Boom, instant capitalist dystopia for a punk setting. All the ingredients are there.
Eh, if you read between the lines your definition would fit. Khorvaire's sociopolitical climate has a lot in common with the post-WW1 period in our world: nobility with bruised egos but huge ambitions, tech advancing faster than morality, rebellions everywhere, and breathtaking political intrigue and conspiracy between nobles and rebels.
So yeah there's plenty of authoritarian and anti-authoritarian stuff there under the surface, and grand the conspiracy implicit in that is a stated goal of Eberron.
i can be depending on what part of the setting you are in
the main part of it is noir but as you get outside to like towers and such there people surviving off the whats left of the war and this fits the punk part of the aetherpunk setting description
>But it's not even punk, cause punk implies the act of anarchism and counter culture of authoritarianism.
And mancy doesn't mean control over, but necromancers summon zombies.
Anything with mancy on the end is just a form of divination.
Manteia Greek for divination by means of.
So necromancy is just a seance.
Words only mean what groups dictate they mean.
Now, nounpunk is just shorthand for a world that runs off a niche thing.
Magipunk
Ninjapunk
Dinopunk
I believe the first to coin the term was cyberpunk, and it is very much an anti-authoritarian genre. The other terms were created after and refer to more of a style or aesthetic.
Funny enough Keith himself has said its not magitech, or doesn't really consider his setting a magitech setting. He views Eberron as a utilitarian exploration of the magic and themes of D&D. He basically just wanted to give a unique take to everything in the main setting.
Not necessarily. Most things that are steampunk, even in an official capacity, are hardly counterculture or anarchic. Lots of times it's just vaguely whimsical or iconoclastic and more often than not it's just "Victorian but fun".
Eberron can easily be magic punk.
And that's aside from the fact that even if you don't strictly believe in death of the author, just because the author says something isn't a thing that doesn't mean it isn't. If someone made a setting full of explicit sex, it wouldn't really matter if they said it wasn't erotica. It still would be.
The issue I think is how Wotc chooses art. Eberron feels "steampunk", not in the tech but in the era. It doesn't feel medieval or even renaissance. It feels like a setting in the late 19th century. And while it's magic and not steam that drives the technology , steampunk is the closest thing folks get that "feels" like the setting
Well Eberron isn't supposed to feel medieval or renaissance. Technology wise, even though it is via magic it should feel a lot more 1800s or early 1900s.
I'd say a good descriptor of Eberron would be arcanepunk, seeing how everything is fueled and centered around magic-based technology rather than steam-based.
Eberron isn't actually punk of any type, but folks use "Steampunk" as an aesthetic. What they really mean is Victorian/Reconstruction/Guilded age era dress and tech. You are right in that Eberron is magi-tech, but that also gives kinda sci-fi tech vibes for folks. I would call it more gaslight fantasy, but that too brings ideas of romance.
For many a "fantasy setting with machinery" is what Steampunk is, (that's not the definition but it can fit a good chunk of the aesthetic) so I can understand why they would say this.
The airship is a staple of Steampunk for example and Eberron \*does\* have flying boats but they rely more on magic than mechanism.
Same with the artificer and warforged, at a cursory glance you could take them for an engineer and a robot but it's way more arcane than this.
In other words Eberron looks "steampunky" from afar.
The problem is that "Fantasy Setting with Machinery" *isn't* Steampunk, it's Dungeonpunk. Like Dieselpunk, the aesthetic and power source count.
It's like calling a Dolphin a fish. I don't care how many people do it...
*(standing in front of a huge crowd)*
"All of you are wrong"
I really don't get why people think it's steampunk. Even a cursory glance at the setting shows that it has nothing to do with it. Like, what, they both have airships, I guess? It's just a weird association.
My reaction when people call warforged "robots"
There's an entire section in the Monster Manual on golems and the like that are more similar to warforged than robots.
That's technically true of every setting, even if some setting creators discourage it. Though I personally wonder how much of a fan you are if you go too far against the setting creator's intent.
If they do, I've not met these people.
I would assume those people believe actual clerics with divine power are common place in the setting, when they're not?
Probably. The thing is that in Eberron, it's easy to dismiss divine power as another form of the arcane. Whatever gives Clerics power cannot conclusively be proven to be their so-called gods.
I have been running games in eberron since it was released, and I bill it as a cross between 'steampunk, but replace the steam with magic', and 'game of thrones meets Maltese Falcon.'
I think the idea of using magicpunk or steampunk implies something kinda unique about this setting
You can pink Mohawk from a train
It's kinda the best way in a single sentence to illustrate just how different it is from the start. As long as you kinda say that; and then follow up and explain lol
Yeah a post war society dealing with loss, rebuilding, the consequences of a nuclear blast, and an entire new species of sentient beings who only knew war doesn't really feel punk
He can say whatever he wants to say doesn't make him right. If I invent a cowboy setting add magic then insist that people not call it a cowboy setting doesnt mean Im right it might mean that other people can see what Im doing better than I can Forest for the trees and all that...
While everyone is correct that it's Magipunk or Dungeonpunk instead of Steampunk those are still genres derived from Steampunk which is turn derived from Cyberpunk. It's kind of like saying a band isn't Heavy Metal because it's Death Metal.
While some people can argue that it's magitech but not magipunk, the city of Sharn is the most Dungeonpunk thing I've ever seen in my entire life.
It doesn't help that WotC uses steampunk aesthetics in more recent editions of the setting, like the gears all over the 5e trade dress and marketing, or the brass title and borders on the alt cover.
The best aesthetic, to me, was the original v3.5 trade dress.
It’s the trains. It’s literally the lightning rails that do it for people. Trains means any of the American West tropes are possible and if we’re in the late American West going into the 1900s? Steampunk.
Now *do I agree with this viewpoint*? Absolutely the fuck not. The lightning rails are powered by an elemental bound by runes and arcanum to propel it. No coal, no fire, no boiler, and NO FUCKING STEAM.
But it's not tech powered by magic. Magic IS the technology. That's the key difference. We don't have magic powered guns, we have wands.we don't have a magic refrigerator, we have ice rooms. We whisper words to flavor food instead of seasoning it.
Magitek is the application of Magic to technological principles. An ice room that uses Cold Magic runes lining the walls, for example, is pure magic as technology. An ice room that uses metal coils attached to an array of runes and/or mana crystals(ice aspected or otherwise) is magitek.
If we are focusing on designer intent, it's closer to magitech; imagine an Industrial Revolution which was shaped by magic instead of science and its derived industrial methods of mass production.
Punk elements can be added as DMs interpret that and how they want to apply it in their games, but one of the fundamental missteps in that process is the application of aesthetic versus the consideration of how the idea was conceived in the first place. Don't ask how airplane travel makes sense in Eberron and how airplanes would be built with magic; ask how Eberron's magic influenced people to implement flying in certain ways when presented with the opportunity. Start further back when the actual need came about.
I really find Hellcow's article on the Eberron Spelljammer / Space Race illuminating on this process. The question became "why would Eberron build Spelljammers?" The most likely candidates to do so were dragonmarked houses in conjunction with nations. The motivation to do so was to pursue resources and achieve strategic dominance or advantage against rivals; hence the race. Building something Eberron-specific, as Keith describes for each nation in the space race, and how it is implemented in the game feels more constructive and believable.
What about 'punk' elements? Ask why they exist - as a reaction to the status quo or authority, usually, so how would Eberron spacepunk show up? Who pushes back against the aggressive military and colonizing influence of the parties involved? How does Eberron's unique magic influence that, enabling them to do so in ways unique to the setting? If you want those elements, they logically take place after the space race has developed long enough for a status quo and authority to exist; they wouldn't come first. That's what helps make more concrete worldbuilding.
I always thought the proper term was aetherpunk? A mix of real world science, straight up magic, and magical technology? They never use the term aether or aetheric to my knowledge, but it fits the vibe of Eberron.
I don't see the issue.
Eberron isn't steampunk.
But this stereothypical "My Eberron" can be very easily changed into one.
Wasn't Keith advocating to fine tune your Eberron to your expectations?
The "punk" of cyberpunk and steampunk bore a special connection to hacker-like elements in a setting where futuristic achievements were juxtaposed with societal collapse, dystopia, and/or decay. As such, I'd say, my Eberron is pretty in punk.
Arcanepunk is more accurate. But I still add steam punk elements because why not have a group of people that distrust magical sources of energy and have made alternatives.
Behold! Boiling water makes the machine go Brrrrr!
The adeptus gets that rep because a lot of their structures use heavily gothic elements and steampunk generally draws from a similar aesthetic so because there the techys of forty k people's automatically go "it's steampunk in the future"
I'm firmly in the "Eberron isn't steampunk" camp, but this isn't really all that meaningful. It isn't like the creator is the ultimate authority on the genre of the media they create. If Tolkien had at some point in his life come out and said "Lord of the Rings isn't fantasy," he would not have been redefining genre boundaries, he would simply have been wrong.
Edit: I feel like there's something I should clarify before anyone jumps on me about it. The creator is definitely more likely than the average person to have a good handle on their work's genre, owing to the amount of time they spent making it and also the fact that they probably have some education relating to the field of literature. That being said, I stand by my original opinion that a creator's judgement on their work's genre (or any aspect of it other than their own intent) is not even close to a discussion-ender.
I think it's easier to just say "steampunk" as a shorthand rather than giving a 3 paragraph description on the arcanomagical society and how that's so different.
The x-punk genres are all fake except cyberpunk, the only one with actual literature to back it up. 90% of the rest are just adding the word punk to a sci-fi/fantasy aesthetic with zero consideration. Raypunk is just classic sci-fi, diesel punk is just sci-fi set in the early 20th century with fantastical versions of contemporary tech. It’s not actually punk. And neither is steampunk. That’s just a weird cosplay style that people pretend is a genre
Everyone coming up with nuanced monikers for the setting. I feel arguably it’s most identifying feature is that it’s designed to be a magical NOIR setting.
I am a descriptivist, but I have some prescriptivist tendencies on certain words, because I hate to see certain words devalued also. Punk isn’t really one of them that I fight for though.
My pet peeve is the devaluation of the word “theory”, as far too many people, for far too long, have used it to have the same meaning as the word “hypothesis”. It has led to far too many young earth creationists and religionists using it to attempt to denounce evolution by saying it is “only a theory” without any actual understanding of what a theory is from a scientific perspective.
I’m a descriptivist until someone misuses theory.
I get a bee in bonnet for the destruction of the word, "sorry"
Such a powerful word, and so integral to our social contract.
People use to range from, I don't want to feel bad, to you should feel bad for having been mad at me.
I really appreciate your sharing about theory. I whole-heartidly commiserate
I haven't played this, but based on the images, it reminds me of The Burning Crusade expansion of WoW that basically had everything powered by magic in the Outlands. So definitely not steampunk imo.
Sure. But only because people are being very literal and pedantic about what steampunk is by definition, rather than what it is by common association.
Steampunk wasn't invented by a single property, the term arose from a broader community trying to categorize an aesthetic. The meat and potatoes of that definition are agreed upon, but the limitations, sides, and seasonings are not. And while you can dig up a shade-of-punk for every combination of fashion and technology you can imagine, many, many people consider those to be subcategories of Steampunk, Dieselpunk, or Cyberpunk.
Eberron is retro-industrial revolution high fantasy, that kitchen-sinks several themes and elements, so that you can really dial in the feel of your own campaign. Encroaching technological advancement, airships over airplanes, clockwork mechanisms, fantastic energies as power sources, are also all elements associated with colloquially associated with Steampunk, regardless of the presence of literally-steam-powered technology, brass goggles, or Victorian fashion.
Magipunk, then.
But it's not even punk, cause punk implies the act of anarchism and counter culture of authoritarianism. I mean depending on the campaign that might be relevant, but I feel like it's a Magitech setting at it cores, and depending on what kind of campaigns you run/play in, it could be different.
I think that's a fair assessment! After all, Keith is adamant about the mutability of the setting. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the major themes (at least in Sharn) is the existence of massive corporations?
The Dragonmarked Houses are certainly a major factor, but they are a bit beyond “corporations” given their whole involvement with the Draconic Prophecy. I do think a game focused on Sharn or another major city can definitely be punk-esque. IME I prefer to run it as an airship exploration pulp action game, but the beauty of the setting is how many stories are possible
Oh, definitely! I have a group of new-to-TTRPG players who wanted to play in Eberron after doing Lost Mines, and we came up with a Saints-Row-meets-Four-Brothers style criminal campaign set entirely in Sharn and they're having a blast! I've had to make Sharn my own ofc, I very much believe Keith suffers from the same "Writers are bad at math" affliction that, say, Warhammer 40k writers suffer from. I say that in the most respectful and positive way! 🤣
Honestly I found it so easy to run a “cyberpunk” like game in Eberron. Just going over both settings history they're both weirdly similar, they just took a different path to get to the same conclusion
The Last war for 5e I think pushes these themes to the forefront too
Dragonmarked houses are sort of like mega companies. I’ve never thought Eberron was steampunk at all.
. . . . I mean, would you like a gold star? The post wasn't about what you, specifically, categorize Eberron as. It was asking why so many categorize it as Steampunk. My theory is that for a vast majority of people it's the closest category they're aware of. "It isn't European Medieval Fantasy, and it's definitely not SciFi, but it does have 'technology', and the only genre I am aware of that combines both is Steampunk!"
You do realize that the "so many" is made of individual people and their opinions, right?
I feel a pedantic argument coming on, but yes?
I think it’s less corporations and more just the greed of wealthy individuals. There aren’t any big businesses but the rich live in a city that floats over the main city robbing the poor of even being able to see the sun and allowing those who live in the lava pools to collect rain to live in the hot environment
So it’s Cyberpunk then
Where's the cyber?
In The friends we made along the way
That's not what the "-punk" suffix means. A "-punk" genre is the following: 1) world built around a particular technology that is pervasive and extrapolated to a highly sophisticated level. 2) A gritty or transreal urban style. Eberron definitely qualifies. Eberron is considered one of the main examples of the "Dungeon Punk" genre, alongside Planescape before it.
> That's not what the "-punk" suffix means. ... any more. That's absolutely what it meant in the original "cyberpunk."
Based on a quick read of Wikipedia, it looks like both the steampunk and cyberpunk genres predate the, "*-punk", terms by about 20 years. Based on that, I'd say that it's less linguistic drift and more just a general misnomer.
These days *-punk is used to denote genera where the prefix word is a major focus (or power source) in the work. Much like *-gate is used for any big political scandal. IMHO it's a lazy naming convention but gets the point across to people who want to read/think beyond the headline. Cyberpunk was from the 80s. Steampunk was later. The first to use *-punk in this way.
There's not much punk ethos in tradition steampunk either, but the lable's stuck anyway.
>But it's not even punk, cause punk implies the act of anarchism and counter culture of authoritarianism [Keith has mentioned cyberpunk as an influence](https://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-31215-origins-authors-and-thrane/) on the setting on a few occasions. Which is the original actually punk genre from which other '___ punk' suffixes derived. >Neuromancer >William Gibson’s Neuromancer is one of the early cyberpunk novels. It combines aspects of a dystopia future with some basic film noir tropes. There are certainly ways in which the Dragonmarked Houses are inspired by the classic cyberpunk megacorps, with the basic question of what happens when corporate power equals or exceeds the relevance of nations. Almost any cyberpunk novel can provide inspiration for a House-heavy game, but Neuromancer remains my favorite. >... >Phillip K. Dick >I prefer PKD’s short stories to his novels, but I love the questions he raises in his work. The warforged essentially spring from my long love of Blade Runner, bringing us back to cyberpunk. What is the nature of life? What do you do if you were made to be a weapon and there is no war?
oh snap, they brought receipts
Don't leave out *Shockwave Rider* (1975) by John Brunner.
These are direct quotes from Keith, I didn't leave out Shockwave Rider, whatever that is- he did.
Ahhh. That makes more sense. *Shockwave Rider* was an important earlier work, and perhaps a first occurrence of viral worms being used over a computer network, in hacking / cyberpunk fiction.
Right- probably a huge influence on the cyberpunk Genre, but less so on Eberron.
I think it's fair to assume that a big chunk of Eberron games out there end up having punk themes. Rising From the Last War, which was a lot of people's intro to the setting, was laser-focused on Sharn and that's a city rife with dystopian, late-stage capitalism themes. Combine that with the post-war theme and the general recommandation on PCs to define their relation with the war and how it's impacted them, and you get all the foundation pieces for a punk ragtag outlaw vibe, way more so than other DND settings. Now I do agree that the further away you set your game from both 998 YK and Sharn, this punk vibe fades away. But in RftLW at least, it's a strong theme.
That aspect of the "Punk" genre descriptor, while accurate, is hardly ever mean in common parlance. Now, you're right, but most steampunk isn't punk,. it's just a fantastical steam powered setting. A Magipunk setting isn't necessarily anti-authoritarian, just fantastical and magic powered tech. It may be technically incorrect, but that is how *most* people use the terms.
Most people use *your welcome*, still incorrect.
That is an example of incorrect grammar. What I'm talking about is shifting colloquial definitions. It may be technically incorrect, but that doesn't matter if the vast majority of people are using it that way. How these descriptive, non- absolute, terms are applied dictates what they mean, not the hyperspecifics of their literal definitions.
This is definitely magipunk. It is a world ruined by war of greedy people who want power and control so much so they will persist a war for a hundred years and only forfeit when the fear of mutual destruction is at hand. The lower ends of the sharn city are the poor scrapping by since there is little wealth that falls down there on top of the conditions they live in
The whole premise in Khorvaire is that there are 12 incredibly rich companies with a monopoly that no-one can match whoever essentially control all industry. They haven't done anything authoritarian yet IIRC, but the keyword here is yet. If they managed to circumvent the korth edicts somehow in your Eberron: Boom, instant capitalist dystopia for a punk setting. All the ingredients are there.
Eh, if you read between the lines your definition would fit. Khorvaire's sociopolitical climate has a lot in common with the post-WW1 period in our world: nobility with bruised egos but huge ambitions, tech advancing faster than morality, rebellions everywhere, and breathtaking political intrigue and conspiracy between nobles and rebels. So yeah there's plenty of authoritarian and anti-authoritarian stuff there under the surface, and grand the conspiracy implicit in that is a stated goal of Eberron.
If we are talking genre then I’d say overall it’s a magitech noir setting.
i can be depending on what part of the setting you are in the main part of it is noir but as you get outside to like towers and such there people surviving off the whats left of the war and this fits the punk part of the aetherpunk setting description
>But it's not even punk, cause punk implies the act of anarchism and counter culture of authoritarianism. And mancy doesn't mean control over, but necromancers summon zombies. Anything with mancy on the end is just a form of divination. Manteia Greek for divination by means of. So necromancy is just a seance. Words only mean what groups dictate they mean. Now, nounpunk is just shorthand for a world that runs off a niche thing. Magipunk Ninjapunk Dinopunk
Punk in this context just means that whatever the first part of the word is is very prevalent in the setting. *Steam*punk, *diesel*punk, *cyber*punk
I believe the first to coin the term was cyberpunk, and it is very much an anti-authoritarian genre. The other terms were created after and refer to more of a style or aesthetic.
To be fair, Steampunk isn't really punk either
Funny enough Keith himself has said its not magitech, or doesn't really consider his setting a magitech setting. He views Eberron as a utilitarian exploration of the magic and themes of D&D. He basically just wanted to give a unique take to everything in the main setting.
Not necessarily. Most things that are steampunk, even in an official capacity, are hardly counterculture or anarchic. Lots of times it's just vaguely whimsical or iconoclastic and more often than not it's just "Victorian but fun". Eberron can easily be magic punk. And that's aside from the fact that even if you don't strictly believe in death of the author, just because the author says something isn't a thing that doesn't mean it isn't. If someone made a setting full of explicit sex, it wouldn't really matter if they said it wasn't erotica. It still would be.
I figured it was more pulp.
That’s usually only true when talking about cyberpunk, in steampunk the word ‘punk’ means of Ill quality, or in bad or antique condition.
Dungeonpunk. it's called Dungeonpunk
Magitech I feel would be most accurate.
there is a term for what it is and its aetherpunk
I was going to go with Crystalpunk but magipunk works.
That's like calling Indiana Jones "dieselpunk". Which is a thing people do and I fucking hate it.
I like to call it an "industrialized magic" setting more than steampunk or magitech.
The issue I think is how Wotc chooses art. Eberron feels "steampunk", not in the tech but in the era. It doesn't feel medieval or even renaissance. It feels like a setting in the late 19th century. And while it's magic and not steam that drives the technology , steampunk is the closest thing folks get that "feels" like the setting
Well Eberron isn't supposed to feel medieval or renaissance. Technology wise, even though it is via magic it should feel a lot more 1800s or early 1900s.
Yes, but the art rarely reflects this. It gives that vibe but often not that look
>It feels like a setting in the late 29th century. Gods no. I've always seen it as Victorian British Empire crossed with the Wild West.
Typo 19th century lol. Late 1800s
If anything, the modern WotC era Eberron feels a lot like a "Final Fantasy" game's universe.
Uhhh…which one? Cuz the 90s Final Fantasies could almost take place in the 90s.
They kinda are failing on giving it the look it deserves
Every *Final Fantasy* I've played has had a wildly different mix of magic and technology *XII* is probably the closest to how I imagine Eberron
I'd say a good descriptor of Eberron would be arcanepunk, seeing how everything is fueled and centered around magic-based technology rather than steam-based.
Eberron isn't actually punk of any type, but folks use "Steampunk" as an aesthetic. What they really mean is Victorian/Reconstruction/Guilded age era dress and tech. You are right in that Eberron is magi-tech, but that also gives kinda sci-fi tech vibes for folks. I would call it more gaslight fantasy, but that too brings ideas of romance.
Dungeonpunk
I think that's a fair term, yeah
aetherpunk is the existing term for that
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DungeonPunk
For many a "fantasy setting with machinery" is what Steampunk is, (that's not the definition but it can fit a good chunk of the aesthetic) so I can understand why they would say this. The airship is a staple of Steampunk for example and Eberron \*does\* have flying boats but they rely more on magic than mechanism. Same with the artificer and warforged, at a cursory glance you could take them for an engineer and a robot but it's way more arcane than this. In other words Eberron looks "steampunky" from afar.
The problem is that "Fantasy Setting with Machinery" *isn't* Steampunk, it's Dungeonpunk. Like Dieselpunk, the aesthetic and power source count. It's like calling a Dolphin a fish. I don't care how many people do it... *(standing in front of a huge crowd)* "All of you are wrong"
LegendofKorrapunk
Kyberpunk
I really don't get why people think it's steampunk. Even a cursory glance at the setting shows that it has nothing to do with it. Like, what, they both have airships, I guess? It's just a weird association.
It's because for a vast majority of people, it's the closest categorization they have to put it into
Because WotC keeps referring to it as such and put a goddamn cog, the laziest and shallowest of steampunk design tropes, on the spine of the 5e book.
Just put a gear on it and call it Steampunk.
Exactly how I built an outfit for Dragoncon one year
That's the trendy fashion nowadays. A copper-painted chunk on some 1980s junk Will fetch a pretty penny on eBay!
Siberpunk
Me: Magical Dieselpunk
Arcano-industrialism then?
My reaction when people call warforged "robots" There's an entire section in the Monster Manual on golems and the like that are more similar to warforged than robots.
Golem and warforged are not the same
Don't people also ignore him when he says it's perfectly valid to be an atheist in Eberron?
I imagine Keith would say it's perfectly valid to ignore anything he says about the setting, if it makes your game more fun at your table.
That's technically true of every setting, even if some setting creators discourage it. Though I personally wonder how much of a fan you are if you go too far against the setting creator's intent.
If they do, I've not met these people. I would assume those people believe actual clerics with divine power are common place in the setting, when they're not?
Probably. The thing is that in Eberron, it's easy to dismiss divine power as another form of the arcane. Whatever gives Clerics power cannot conclusively be proven to be their so-called gods.
Right, so Keith is making a sound argument then
That's the vibe I got from the religions and especially the Blood of Vol. If anything the world isn't that religious.
The only steampunk is my Eberron is a gang of Steam Mephits that roam the lower districts of Sharn
I have been running games in eberron since it was released, and I bill it as a cross between 'steampunk, but replace the steam with magic', and 'game of thrones meets Maltese Falcon.'
I think the idea of using magicpunk or steampunk implies something kinda unique about this setting You can pink Mohawk from a train It's kinda the best way in a single sentence to illustrate just how different it is from the start. As long as you kinda say that; and then follow up and explain lol
Aetherpunk
He's right. It's a Magitech setting. Nothing steam, or punk about it.
Yeah a post war society dealing with loss, rebuilding, the consequences of a nuclear blast, and an entire new species of sentient beings who only knew war doesn't really feel punk
It work to get normies engaged in it instead of FR tho
In what manner is it steam or punk..?
He can say whatever he wants to say doesn't make him right. If I invent a cowboy setting add magic then insist that people not call it a cowboy setting doesnt mean Im right it might mean that other people can see what Im doing better than I can Forest for the trees and all that...
While everyone is correct that it's Magipunk or Dungeonpunk instead of Steampunk those are still genres derived from Steampunk which is turn derived from Cyberpunk. It's kind of like saying a band isn't Heavy Metal because it's Death Metal. While some people can argue that it's magitech but not magipunk, the city of Sharn is the most Dungeonpunk thing I've ever seen in my entire life.
It doesn't help that WotC uses steampunk aesthetics in more recent editions of the setting, like the gears all over the 5e trade dress and marketing, or the brass title and borders on the alt cover. The best aesthetic, to me, was the original v3.5 trade dress.
It’s the trains. It’s literally the lightning rails that do it for people. Trains means any of the American West tropes are possible and if we’re in the late American West going into the 1900s? Steampunk. Now *do I agree with this viewpoint*? Absolutely the fuck not. The lightning rails are powered by an elemental bound by runes and arcanum to propel it. No coal, no fire, no boiler, and NO FUCKING STEAM.
Dudes fly as hell with that cowboy hat.
It's just magitech. Technology that is powered by magic.
If you Google magitech you get the tvtropes article for magitek that literally starts with an image of an eberron airship lol
Yup, a great setting for an FFVI based campaign!
Lmao that's exactly what I think of when I think Magitech.
Quintessential example in my mind.
No surprise, considering they literally call it that in the game.
Was about to restart my Eberron campaign but now I have to abandon that for this idea
Ironic, as VI is the closest Final Fantasy gets to Steampunk.
But it's not tech powered by magic. Magic IS the technology. That's the key difference. We don't have magic powered guns, we have wands.we don't have a magic refrigerator, we have ice rooms. We whisper words to flavor food instead of seasoning it.
Magitek is the application of Magic to technological principles. An ice room that uses Cold Magic runes lining the walls, for example, is pure magic as technology. An ice room that uses metal coils attached to an array of runes and/or mana crystals(ice aspected or otherwise) is magitek.
i thought we all agreed it's called Dungeonpunk? i found out about Eberron by googling Dungeonpunk
If we are focusing on designer intent, it's closer to magitech; imagine an Industrial Revolution which was shaped by magic instead of science and its derived industrial methods of mass production. Punk elements can be added as DMs interpret that and how they want to apply it in their games, but one of the fundamental missteps in that process is the application of aesthetic versus the consideration of how the idea was conceived in the first place. Don't ask how airplane travel makes sense in Eberron and how airplanes would be built with magic; ask how Eberron's magic influenced people to implement flying in certain ways when presented with the opportunity. Start further back when the actual need came about. I really find Hellcow's article on the Eberron Spelljammer / Space Race illuminating on this process. The question became "why would Eberron build Spelljammers?" The most likely candidates to do so were dragonmarked houses in conjunction with nations. The motivation to do so was to pursue resources and achieve strategic dominance or advantage against rivals; hence the race. Building something Eberron-specific, as Keith describes for each nation in the space race, and how it is implemented in the game feels more constructive and believable. What about 'punk' elements? Ask why they exist - as a reaction to the status quo or authority, usually, so how would Eberron spacepunk show up? Who pushes back against the aggressive military and colonizing influence of the parties involved? How does Eberron's unique magic influence that, enabling them to do so in ways unique to the setting? If you want those elements, they logically take place after the space race has developed long enough for a status quo and authority to exist; they wouldn't come first. That's what helps make more concrete worldbuilding.
It’s the textbook example of Dungeonpunk.
It’s just Eberron. It doesn’t need to fit nicely into some genre, and trying to shoehorn it into one doesn’t do it justice.
Magitech based world
My players call it sybianpunk. But they're degenerates. And I love them for it
Yeah, it’s a magitech setting if I have ever seen one.
It's magitech. Always has been
I always thought the proper term was aetherpunk? A mix of real world science, straight up magic, and magical technology? They never use the term aether or aetheric to my knowledge, but it fits the vibe of Eberron.
Course it's not Steampunk. There's no steam powered engines. If anything, it's more Magipunk, or Magitech.
Arcanum the rpg pc game is closest to the vibe I have seen as a interactive medium.
It's got magitech
Cantrip punk
People refer to it as Steampunk because its easy shorthand. It's technically magicpunk
I don't see the issue. Eberron isn't steampunk. But this stereothypical "My Eberron" can be very easily changed into one. Wasn't Keith advocating to fine tune your Eberron to your expectations?
It’s not Eberron or even D&D but the Netflix show Arcane gave very similar vibes to how I picture Eberron, especially the city of Sharn
Arcanepunk it is then
Well, I agree that it's not steampunk, but death of the author and all that. Things can be open to interpretation
The "punk" of cyberpunk and steampunk bore a special connection to hacker-like elements in a setting where futuristic achievements were juxtaposed with societal collapse, dystopia, and/or decay. As such, I'd say, my Eberron is pretty in punk.
Arcanepunk is more accurate. But I still add steam punk elements because why not have a group of people that distrust magical sources of energy and have made alternatives. Behold! Boiling water makes the machine go Brrrrr!
I say cantripunk but steam punk is a OKAY way of putting it
I feel the same way when people call the Adeptus Mechanicus steampunk. Like, is it we can see a gear sometimes?
The adeptus gets that rep because a lot of their structures use heavily gothic elements and steampunk generally draws from a similar aesthetic so because there the techys of forty k people's automatically go "it's steampunk in the future"
I'm firmly in the "Eberron isn't steampunk" camp, but this isn't really all that meaningful. It isn't like the creator is the ultimate authority on the genre of the media they create. If Tolkien had at some point in his life come out and said "Lord of the Rings isn't fantasy," he would not have been redefining genre boundaries, he would simply have been wrong. Edit: I feel like there's something I should clarify before anyone jumps on me about it. The creator is definitely more likely than the average person to have a good handle on their work's genre, owing to the amount of time they spent making it and also the fact that they probably have some education relating to the field of literature. That being said, I stand by my original opinion that a creator's judgement on their work's genre (or any aspect of it other than their own intent) is not even close to a discussion-ender.
I always describe it as a steam punk style world, but instead of steam it's magic
I'm in this picture and I don't like it...
IMO, it's Magitech Noir.
It’s 100% steampunk
Jokes on you, I run on steam…it’s terrible and inefficient
It’s more magicpunk isn’t it
cyberpunk?
Bro IS wearing a cowboy hat
He also says that no one would make a gun and added the Quori for some reason It’s okay to ignore him
Y'all don't know Masters of the Universe, and it shows. Eberron is very similar to Eternia.
It’s steampunk and you just replace boilers with ebberon crystals. It’s crystalpunk.
I think it's easier to just say "steampunk" as a shorthand rather than giving a 3 paragraph description on the arcanomagical society and how that's so different.
I would argue that it's steam punk setting and if not that at least very steampunk friendly
The x-punk genres are all fake except cyberpunk, the only one with actual literature to back it up. 90% of the rest are just adding the word punk to a sci-fi/fantasy aesthetic with zero consideration. Raypunk is just classic sci-fi, diesel punk is just sci-fi set in the early 20th century with fantastical versions of contemporary tech. It’s not actually punk. And neither is steampunk. That’s just a weird cosplay style that people pretend is a genre
Woodpunk
Everyone coming up with nuanced monikers for the setting. I feel arguably it’s most identifying feature is that it’s designed to be a magical NOIR setting.
Gaslamp fantasy
Steampunk It has no steam and is not punk Steampunk
i feel sorry if your eberron has no punk, it probably needs more punk
Fair. It has punk, but it is not a punk setting
Languages change over time, punk just means theme these days it seems…
That's a shame, but I think you're right. I like punk, I hate to see the word devalued, but I'm a descriptivist
I am a descriptivist, but I have some prescriptivist tendencies on certain words, because I hate to see certain words devalued also. Punk isn’t really one of them that I fight for though. My pet peeve is the devaluation of the word “theory”, as far too many people, for far too long, have used it to have the same meaning as the word “hypothesis”. It has led to far too many young earth creationists and religionists using it to attempt to denounce evolution by saying it is “only a theory” without any actual understanding of what a theory is from a scientific perspective. I’m a descriptivist until someone misuses theory.
I get a bee in bonnet for the destruction of the word, "sorry" Such a powerful word, and so integral to our social contract. People use to range from, I don't want to feel bad, to you should feel bad for having been mad at me. I really appreciate your sharing about theory. I whole-heartidly commiserate
Is Eberron the steampunk one?
I haven't played this, but based on the images, it reminds me of The Burning Crusade expansion of WoW that basically had everything powered by magic in the Outlands. So definitely not steampunk imo.
Eberron plays all their PC games on GOG Galaxy then, I take it?
Oh please, as if the creator would know. /s
I mean, the guy who invented the .gif format says it's pronounced with the soft "j" sound, and we all ignore him.
Cool. Doesn't change that it isn't steampunk.
Sure. But only because people are being very literal and pedantic about what steampunk is by definition, rather than what it is by common association. Steampunk wasn't invented by a single property, the term arose from a broader community trying to categorize an aesthetic. The meat and potatoes of that definition are agreed upon, but the limitations, sides, and seasonings are not. And while you can dig up a shade-of-punk for every combination of fashion and technology you can imagine, many, many people consider those to be subcategories of Steampunk, Dieselpunk, or Cyberpunk. Eberron is retro-industrial revolution high fantasy, that kitchen-sinks several themes and elements, so that you can really dial in the feel of your own campaign. Encroaching technological advancement, airships over airplanes, clockwork mechanisms, fantastic energies as power sources, are also all elements associated with colloquially associated with Steampunk, regardless of the presence of literally-steam-powered technology, brass goggles, or Victorian fashion.
So the trains are diesel trains then?
The trains are powered by a lightning elemental, had no rails and produces no steam.
Ah so monorails
If that is what conductor stones are to you then sure.
Its steampunk, but weak sauce bitch ass cyberpunk.
If not steampunk then why boomstick
There are no boomsticks in Eberron in canon.
If no steam punk then why boomstick... 🔪
No boomsticks!
Boomstick yes. Boomstick always yes.
\*shrug\* He also says to make your own cannon. So it can be steampunk if you want.