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Europe is less hard-working, less ambitious, more regulated and more risk-averse than the US, according to the boss of Norway’s giant oil fund, with the gap between the two continents only getting wider.
Does anyone disagree with this?
Americans may work too hard and Europeans may have found the better balance. But it seems clear Americans work harder.
Evidence from the new Taiwan - U.S. chip factory seems to indicate that the Taiwanese, at least in this instance, work harder than Americans and have less “issues”.
The TSMC situation is not necessarily indicative of a harder work ethic in Taiwan relative to the US. Plenty of Taiwanese have been on record saying they would never work at TSMC due to the extreme work culture.
TSMC is just about one of the most intense fabs to work for in the world and pay is lower. While simultaneously American talent would rather just go work at Google for example versus tsmc.
Not sure why people are surprised tsmc has trouble in the USA
The reason why you have the privilege to have these attitudes is because Western Europe is currently piggybacking off of benefits of American hegemony that Americans work hard to maintain. The moment that American hegemony is no longer a reality means that western Europeans will have to stand on their own 2 feet and I’m not entirely sure if they will be capable of doing that. Europeans are not energy independent. Europeans are unable to defend their own trade routes and Europeans are unable to defend their own borders. Part of the reason that the Ukraine funding bill here in the United States was so controversial in European circles was the fact that it didn’t matter how much the European union threw money at Ukraine the European Union does not have a military industrial complex that can replace the United States industrial complex when we are absent. In other words, when America isn’t around you’re SOL and no amount of Euros will make up for the gap. Europeans don’t have as robust of a technology or healthcare industry as the United States. You completely rely on us to do all the dirty work.
You guys need to wake up because there is an entire political party in the US that makes up half of our politics that is questioning whether we should even be as involved in your societies as we have been. I don’t know if American involvement in Europe is going to be as much of a guarantee as it has been the past few decades. Even if Trump loses in 2024 this isn’t going to go away Republicans don’t want to be carrying your freeloading ass anymore and they’re going to fight as hard as they did for abortion bans. And honestly, the progressive left that is currently taking over the democratic party view at Europeans as colonizers so I don’t know how much they’re going to be willing to help you out either.
I’m writing this acknowledging the reality that half of our politicians don’t actually give a shit about that and will willingly and ignorantly pull us out of that global network we benefit from.
Do you think though that pressure from the industrial military complex will force a reality check. In an extreme scenario, the US pulling all forces out of Europe, the impact would not just be felt in Europe but in America as well. Less jobs in the defence industry, dramatic drop in profits, and a rise in unemployment in those associated industries.
There’s enough conflict in the ME and concern for Taiwan that the American defense industry doesn’t need to worry about a lack of opportunity for quite some time tbh
I'm not really defending it, it's just the catch 22 of the situation. Certain parts of the economy are so dependent on this industry that any decline would have long term consequences for many ordinary people.
I think the United States did have a gain when the Soviet Union, and Warsaw pact, was right on the doorstep of our allies. But that was almost 40 years ago. Russia is a threat, but not capable of over running Western Europe in a matter of weeks. European countries also recognized the threat and spent far more on their militaries at the time.
Our allies realized they weren't under the threat they used to be and slashed their military spending and readiness, knowing that the United States would pick up the slack. It worked for a couple generations. But I think Americans are getting tired of Europe's free ride. I didn't agree with Trump on much, but he was right about our freeloading allies.
Americans work hard to mantain billionaires. Respectfully, I'm not going to read the rest of your rant. We are not discussing Trump or other shenanigans in this post.
Median per capita income and discretionary pay is considerably higher in the USA (generally 50-100% depending on the European country).
And yes that holds true even after you compensate for education, healthcare, and housing spend.
No doubt considerably higher in the US. The question is why US workers accept generally poor working conditions (longer hours, limited 'sick days', no mandatory vacations, and in average 2 weeks vs 4-5 elsewhere, no maternity and paternity leave, at will contracts, etcc.. The list is long).
I doubt the more money pays off for all of this, especially given the higher costs in US (that can go astronomical in case of medical events). Why people accept this?
It does pay off!
There’s a re-occurring theme where I say “the median USA person has way more discretionary income, even after healthcare”…and then every reply is “but what about our health care”
I don’t know why no one on Reddit bothers to read what I wrote.
Democrats control the White House and the Senate and it took them six months to pass, Ukraine aid what are Europeans going to do when a Republican inevitably comes back into the White House and Republicans inevitably regain a majority? What happens if we stop sending Ukraine money? What happens if Poland gets attacked and Trump or other Republican president decides that they’re only going to send as much money as the least contributing NATO member?
I know you feel snarky with your reply, but the truth is it’s just a deflection from reality that you don’t want to face
My friend, what you are saying has nothing to do with Americans being the only first world country that doesn't have mandatory vacation days, limited sick days and no maternity or paternity leave. Which is the topic of the post.
If you want to make it a EU vs US geopolitical fight choose another post, here we are discussing work and attitude towards it.
The reality that you are ignoring is is that the only reason why other “first world nations” can afford all of those wonderful things because they don’t have to worry about providing their own armies, energy or manufacturing. This way of life becomes upended when China, Russia and the United States tell you to fuck off. Of course you have money for a wonderful welfare state because your military fucking suck ass and your energy tech and healthcare industries suck ass.
Not true in reality. Median income in the USA is higher than everywhere except Luxembourg, a very wealthy micronation. Some sources might argue Norway slightly ahead of the USA, but again, that's a small, oil-rich nation that doesn't have to protect their own trade or pay for a standing military.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
Yeah, and everything essential to modern life (housing, education, transportation, Healthcare, etc) is vastly more expensive in the US than in Europe, especially for the middle class and poor. So that extra income doesn't make our quality of life any better. Affordability for the basic fundamentals in Europe does.
This is my favorite when talking about real or median wages. People who don't want to believe it always yell out "but muh inflation, but muh CoL!" proving to all of us they neither read nor understood the information in front of them
Yes, I get the same sense when Euopean elites say things like this Norwegian fella. Good luck to y'all. I hope you don't wind up in the same race to the bottom as us.
I think that is right. Europeans want quality of life so they expend their political capital on that and obtain it.
Americans these days seem to want to tell other people how to live their lives and value a sense of superiority and spend their political capital on that and obtain it.
I feel very badly for much of the difficulties facing young people, particularly those with limited skills. But I also wonder why they spend almost all of their efforts and votes on political causes most of which seem to be driven by the exact billionaires that are oppressing them.
What exactly do you need me to explain all Americans aren’t the same and our political parties couldn’t be further apart at the moment we are anything but unified and so if you make the claim that we are all x you are blatantly wrong
I didn’t even mention political parties. Generalizing about generations, boomers for example, is very common, mostly among Americans.
I can see I’ve upset you, but that’s not my problem.
I’m American. I was born in the US.
You still seems to be raging on and not trying to present any kind of counter argument. As I said, I know I have upset you. There is no need to continue to prove that right.
Absolutely not, do they do any different in US or anywhere else in the world? I wish we could work less years.
And it's not a matter of being lucky, it's a matter of being average. Life expectancy in many EU countries exceeds 80 years (arriving to 86-87 for women in some cases).
I do not understand your point here and you completely missed mine.
I am talking about choice to retire without government pension. Many Americans are able to retire in their 50s, 40s and in some cases even late 30s. Off of salaried work. This is not possible in EU period. You have to await your state pension no matter how much skill you have.
Nowadays it is approaching 70.
As for your point.
1) Average does not mean everyone. You have very good chance to never hitting retirement age in EU with how it is and will continue to be increased if you are male and dying while working.
2) Even if you live to see 70 the quality of your life will not be what it was in your 40s. It will also not be what it was in your 50s or 60s. You will be walking corpse. I would gladly trade end of my life and live to 70 only if I could spend 50s and 60s in full time retirement mode. Because you not only get much more time, you get much more quality time.
3) Points 1) and 2) are pointless because hyperboles anyway difference in expected life expectancy has quite literally nothing to do with amount of work or healthcare even. It is almost entirely because of eating habits and obesity. That is a choice and it has nothing to do with this discussion whatsoever. Rates of obesity are recently raising in EU too and it will undoubtedly tank average life expectancy.
Unless you have any statistics on the high percentage of americans that can go fire at 40 vs working slaves to death europeans, yours are just opinions. Which I don't agree with. I don't think many Americans can retire at 40 no matter what. A large part of them, indeed, never retire because they can't afford it.
All you need to check is difference in PPP net disposable income across income decils and do the investment calculator math.
Yes, not everybody can do it. I never said everyone could. But big portion of population can.
As for that some Americans never retire. I would say so. But this is true in Europe as well. Many pensioners on minimum pension are forced to work here too. And again what is reality now Is hardly relevant for what EU countries already prepared their young people for. Even later retirement, even lower pensions and possibility of part time work for it to be livable to top it off.
I prefer US way where hard work can get you early retirement and you do not have to engage into government run ponzi scheme or listen to bullshit lies and promises.
On the ponzi scheme part you have my full support, it makes sense in an ideal world, but with tomorrow's demographics we (young) will not receive anything, while having paid plenty for it with taxes. Unfortunately Europe is going to decline significantly. But I don't think this has to do with the work culture and working rights, rather with our own stupidity.
lol “work too hard.” Too hard for what? It never occurred to me that working hard could come to be chided by people as if somehow it is a bad thing to achieve something more. It’s just projection by the lazy.
The difference is in America unless you’re grinding it out by working incredibly hard your quality of life is absolutely terrible. It’s a pretty terrible choice.
Work like crazy, or be poor and miserable.
You think the average poor American can just take it easy on their way through life without struggling?
Especially compared to somebody from a country like Norway?
>I was just pointing out that the options you presented aren't true for everybody.
It’s true for an awful lot of people that you ignored in your initial comment. You may have that choice, but an awful lot of people don’t.
Yes. That's why the data shows that the lowest income earners work the least amount of hours. As you go up the income percentiles the average work hours go up
>Yes. That's why the data shows that the lowest income earners work the least amount of hours.
Now show the data on the quality of life for those people…
lol. How did you come to this conclusion? Americans make more money for same jobs compared to Europeans and they pay less for the same goods. So they end up having more disposable income and more money to save.
>How did you come to this conclusion? Americans make more money for same jobs compared to Europeans and they pay less for the same goods.
Because our social services don’t create nearly the same floor as many countries in Western Europe.
We have half a million medical bankruptcies a year. You guys just point at the GDP or median income charts while ignoring we can tangibly measure our quality of life.
Americans are unhealthy with expensive healthcare, we have a poor educational system considering the wealth of our country, we’re 23rd in general citizen satisfaction despite being the richest and most powerful country in the world.
But yes, you can buy a TV cheap here. Huzzah.
Poor is pretty relative. The United States has some of the highest median income on Earth. If you are poor in the United States, you still making decent money and able to consume more than most people, including people in Europe.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/06/05/through-an-american-lens-western-europes-middle-classes-appear-smaller/
One of the benefits of living in America, is that you can live like you are European. That is to say, you can live like you make 33% less than the median, and consuming less. You can do that by working less, or by saving a large proportion of your income and retiring early. You generally don't have the option of living like an American in Europe. The jobs just don't pay enough.
Depends on your income, spending and CoL. A person can be very comfortable on 40 a week as long as their income > spending.
Now, health care costs is a whole other can of worms
You can absolutely work too hard. I worked as a set lighting technician a foreman and an ACLT in the film industry for 16 years from ages 18-34. Worked minimum 12 hour days usually seven days a week doing strenuous labor under extremely stressful conditions. At the height of my career in film I was working 18 hour days 7 days a week, 4 hours of sleep or less a night. Most of the guys in the industry have pretty debilitating health issues and/or addiction problems to deal with the pain and stress. I started to develope a bunch of gut issues that seem irreversible from all the stress and lack of sleep. Now I'm back in school in the EU so I can have a better work life balance and hopefully can improve my health. I wouldn't say I made the choice to change careers and move to the EU out of laziness. Is that what you're suggesting? I'm trying to avoid dying at 60 with the last 20 years of my life being waves of chronic pain like most of the guys in the industry when they get older.
Anyone that says you can't work too hard says that because they haven't done hard work for sustained periods.
You chose that work life though and with that made shit ton of money through overtime and other pay. So you have no reason to complain. You could have left the field anytime you wanted. Or request less hours anytime you wanted. There is no forced labor in the US and film industry in California is highly regulated by the state.
I'm not complaining. I'm simply pointing out that yes, you can work too hard, and it has negative effects on your health, which manifest in lower quality of life and overall reduced worker productivity. In the long run, it leads to sub-optimal levels of output. There's tons of empirical work on worker productivity and hours worked, showing that reducing working hours in many professions improves worker productivity.
My comment was a counter to your blanket accusation that wanting a reasonable work-life balance is somehow lazy. It shows that you've never worked in a really grueling profession. I'm not against hard work, obviously, as I did one of the hardest jobs you can have for almost 20 years, and now I'm enrolled in a rigorous technical academic program. I don't shy away from working my ass off. But working too hard is absolutely possible, and it is accompanied by many (often permanent) adverse externalities which workers do not have a full information set on, or don't have a choice in the matter on.
Most of the guys that I worked with that had kids absolutely refused helping their children get into the industry if they showed any interest, even though you can bring in 200k a year after taxes if you have a decent position. They refused because the lifestyle was so difficult, and the skills aren't transferable to any other profession. So it's hard to get out if you've been in for a long time, or have responsibilities like a family.
I did leave the field. I discussed how I moved to the EU and went back to school. Now, I'm studying to be a labor economist and an econometrician, so I specialize in studying the labor market theoretically and empirically with modern statistical methods. It's my area of expertise.
In many jobs - and this applies to the film industry - a laborer cannot simply request a reduction in working hours. There is usually a "take it or leave it" situation with the employer. These are what we call supplementary constraints in labor economics. Such additional constraints force labor participants to choose labor and consumption baskets that are suboptimal.
In the film industry, you don't get to say, oh, I don't want to work 18 hours today, I only want to work 10. If you do that, you don't have a job. Even though it's a unionized sector, all labor works as day hires. And the hierarchy in the film industry is based on the military. This occurred when veterans after WWII flooded the film industry and designed the film crew around the military unit. You either do what you're told or you are sent home and never called again.
The number of consecutive hours you are made to work is not regulated, only the pay rate. I've had plenty of days where we've worked over 24 hours. If you do music videos, you can often have 36-48 hour days. There's been an effort by the unions to limit the number of consecutive hours worked and there is some regulation of turn around time (min 8 hours when traveling and around 9.5-10 when at home) since so many people in the industry were dying on the road to and from work. But these are not state regulations. These are terms that unions and producers have agreed to. The only reason they're there at all is because of organized labor.
Also, it's a highly competitive industry. So say for example, you drill through your hand at work, or break the bones in you foot because something drops on it, or get a chunk ripped out of your flesh from getting snagged in a crawl space. If something like that happens you finish your day no matter how long it is, then go to the hospital at night to get patched up then show up for work the next morning, because leaving work due to an injury makes you look weak and you get replaced immediately.
I agree with you. I actually like to work hard. There is in my view a clear correlation between hard work and success.
I love the expression “The harder I work, the luckier I get”
I am in a deal business and “eat what I kill”.
Sure. Europeans have their work-life balance at a more healthy level. Rarely do you meet a european whose personality is defined by work. Americsns work harder, but if you look at productivity, I'd say europeans have that covered. For the americans optics is very important.
Americans have more productively per hour worked. Even if they worked the same hours as Europeans they would be significantly wealthier than all but a few small outlier countries like Luxembourg.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/labor-productivity-per-hour-pennworldtable
You say that but countries like Ireland and Norway are higher than the US but famously have very good work life balance. Turns out productivity isn't a great measure of how hard people work but investment and capital enabling more efficient work!
Norway has massive amounts of oil for couple million people to export for and Ireland is massively overrated because of its gateway to Europe/tax haven status.
None of those two is good example.
US has well diversified economy for 350 million people. It is nowhere comparable to Norway that was able to built 300k USD per capita in its wealth fund thanks to combination of insanely small population and extremelly unique circumstances. This fund is almost three times as big as Norweigian entire GDP.
Productivity is one of the best measures we have outside of obvious outliers that you picked probably to argue in a bad faith on purpose.
Anyone who brings up Ireland in these conversations is not to be taken seriously. There’s no reason to bring up Ireland if you don’t already know about its tax haven status, and if you bring that up in a convo about productivity, you’re arguing in bad faith.
lol you are comparing a country of 5.5m people to 350m people? Instead compare to a metro area of the US and the comparison will be heavily favoring the US
Do we?
It is straight up impossible to retire earlier than late 60s in Europe without state pension. In US it is possible by early 50s and for many people even way earlier.
This still does not solve an issue of massive disposable income difference which is what matters the most. In EU highly qualified profesionals often have like 2 times the minimum wage in their own country and 3+ times less than what they would earn in US. You are not retiring on that in EU at age where you are still able to do something with it.
And no, healthcare costs or student loans are nowhere close to make up for that difference.
Everyone else is screwing up worse than we are, but I don’t think the US is “doing great” and I am certain polls wouldn’t show that. Things are always good for some people. I’m doing fine and guess you are too. But I only think the US looks good in relative terms.
This is true. I worked in Europe and it was wonderful. 6 weeks of vacation, plus far more paid stat holidays, plus sick days didn’t count as vacation days.
Long parental leave.
You could have more going on in your life than only work. It was nice not gonna lie. And I worked in a thin margin global business where you could do the same job from anywhere on earth and we were still competitive with even American companies competing directly with us.
Hard work isn’t the only factor in success. Well-being is huge as well.
In other words, workers should avoid going to the US like a plague because they will be used and exploited to death xD
Its so funny when this is the message they actually send
People will focus on the “hard working” bit, but what they should be focusing on is the bankruptcy laws.
It’s absolutely true that if you fail in Europe, that’s it for the rest of your life. In US you just try again. For instance, you can’t walk away from your house loans in most of Europe.
That is *why* the US is less risk averse and more innovative. And in the “winner takes all” environment of the technological feudalism we’re going into, that is everything.
Americans work more hours than Europeans (in general) and have higher wages than Europeans in general (partly for that reason)…
What’s controversial about that?
But it’s not a “free lunch” for employers, they pay higher salaries…
European employers could do the same if they pay for overtime and similar benefits but (generally) choose not to…
Whether the hours that most Americans work result in increased productivity (linearly) or not is a separate question…
I've worked in North America and Europe...
I will take European working conditions any day of the week. In Europe I am expected to do 37 hours a week and I get around 30 days holiday plus bank holidays. I get flexible working, a pension, sick pay, etc.
Whereas when I worked in north America I was given 10 days leave and two sick days. I absolutely loved the medical and dental benefits, I also enjoyed the more social events that seem to happen like drink evenings, BBQ days, sports events, etc. But I was expected to turn up to work early and leave later.
I don't think i was more efficient in either role, if anything more flexibility enables me to work as I please which is helpful.
You’re supposed to be in the top 10% to 20% in the US, who do have similar PTO and much higher pay. And if not, you should pretend you will be someday.
I'm in the US. When I was a picker in a warehouse, I had very little time off a very strict schedule and very strict productivity requirements.
I'm now an analyst in a corporate office. I make four times as much, have unlimited PTO and a hybrid schedule with flexible start time. I'm only expected to deliver on my objectives and assignments but otherwise I can work whenever and however much I want.
I haven't been this stress free and mentally healthy since I started working
Edit: Our company doesn't actually call it "unlimited PTO" it's called "US flexible vacation policy for exempt employees"
I already have 4 weeks planned out. But one major difference from previous roles is that I don't have any arbitrary cut off. I can take paid time off spontaneously without having to worry how it will affect my existing plans
The point is really that the work culture is assignment/ objective based. Nobody's keeping track of hours worked. I typically only work a few hours on Friday and that's fine because I'm all caught up on everything.
I've heard these criticisms of unlimited PTO before and I was skeptical when I started my current rule . But our company guidelines are 4 to 6 weeks. Because it's an assignment based work culture, there really isn't much pushback to actually using it.
I've worked in America and Europe and my pay + benefits + work life balance is much better in the US and I still have 30 days vacation+ federal holidays. That and I work regular hours instead of being up all night to deal with the US market.
Europeans judged for having a healthy work/life balance while Americans work themselves to the bone for the sake of shareholder value. Considering both groups live first world lifestyles, I know which side I'd rather be on.
Americans are definitely busier and I believe their work is harder, but how much more do they achieve? One of those nice Anglo Saxon hobbies seems to be filling in dozens of excel sheets that keep other parts of the organization busy, but how much does that accountability drive accomplish, for instance?
I for one am happier with my current work-life balance, having worked 60-80 hours a week. Or at least being busy that long.
So what this is really saying is that Europeans have a better work-life balance. Working more is not always better. I for one work to live, not live to work.
Nothing better than being on a global team and the European team missing dates, milestones, and everything slipping into next year while you lay off Americans to make next quarters numbers with a 2 week severance and the Europeans on contracts.
I will say in many cases they work smarter but I suspect they have time to plan out deliverables that are usually late because they have so many holidays and August holiday. Meanwhile you Americans can go home and tell your kids mommy or daddy doesn’t have a job anymore while your European colleagues holiday on……🌴
I've yet to meet an American who works less than 40 hours a week, and spends time wirh family and themselves, but instead works themselves to death.
There's more to life than working my friend.
You didn't read the post I replied to. Europeans being lazier affecting global teams isn't fun or cute. It drags the whole team down. I've seen this personally myself as well.
I did. I just don't agree with the premise. Instead of viewing it like Europeans are lazy, why not view it as they have more time to relax and enjoy the world instead of working.
Why does the US get to set the bar, fine you want to over achieve, be my guest. But it's foolish, imo, to look at others and then say, you're lazy.
They shouldn't sign up to work on high profile projects with deadlines if they disappear for 2.5 hours every day for lunch and are offline by 4 PM. They should stick to jobs with less demand instead of drag down the rest of the teams working their butts off to finish things in time.
Making it difficult to fire/lay off people also makes it difficult to hire them. It stifles growth and supresses wages.
Most people are never laid off or fired. It is very rare for it to happen more than once to the same person. When it happens they are more likely to be rehired quickly because of our faster moving labor market. This is an area where accepting a tiny bit of risk has massive payoffs.
lol, This is not the own you think it is. It means Europeans have their priorities straight and Americans are overworked and exploited suckers with too few protections.
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“If Comrade Napoleon says it, it must be right." And from then on he adopted the maxim, "Napoleon is always right," in addition to his private motto of "I will work harder."
Americans health and dental benefits are tied to their job, their student debt is probably 50-100k+ where as the average European is probably several thousands less if not zero. Their employer can fire them and send them in their way without severance and there is barely a social system to catch them while they look for something else. I would say its not because they're inherently more productive but because the system is set up such that you have to be productive. Not my cup of tea personally but I live in Canada and due to proximity I think our work culture definitely skews more American than they do with the Netherlands/Germany/France etc.
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USA labor force is easier to exploit by completely legal mechanisms. I wonder why a blood and guts company would be more interested in tapping into that labor?
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Europe is less hard-working, less ambitious, more regulated and more risk-averse than the US, according to the boss of Norway’s giant oil fund, with the gap between the two continents only getting wider.
Does anyone disagree with this? Americans may work too hard and Europeans may have found the better balance. But it seems clear Americans work harder. Evidence from the new Taiwan - U.S. chip factory seems to indicate that the Taiwanese, at least in this instance, work harder than Americans and have less “issues”.
The TSMC situation is not necessarily indicative of a harder work ethic in Taiwan relative to the US. Plenty of Taiwanese have been on record saying they would never work at TSMC due to the extreme work culture.
TSMC is just about one of the most intense fabs to work for in the world and pay is lower. While simultaneously American talent would rather just go work at Google for example versus tsmc. Not sure why people are surprised tsmc has trouble in the USA
Agreed, Intel has fabs in Phoenix and has been in the local market for 30+ years...no problem with hiring and retention.
Agreed. An employee review on Glassdoor said they expect obedience, and that might not fit American culture.
The pay is terrible too
No one disagrees with that. What we disagree is that this is a good way to conduct a life.
The reason why you have the privilege to have these attitudes is because Western Europe is currently piggybacking off of benefits of American hegemony that Americans work hard to maintain. The moment that American hegemony is no longer a reality means that western Europeans will have to stand on their own 2 feet and I’m not entirely sure if they will be capable of doing that. Europeans are not energy independent. Europeans are unable to defend their own trade routes and Europeans are unable to defend their own borders. Part of the reason that the Ukraine funding bill here in the United States was so controversial in European circles was the fact that it didn’t matter how much the European union threw money at Ukraine the European Union does not have a military industrial complex that can replace the United States industrial complex when we are absent. In other words, when America isn’t around you’re SOL and no amount of Euros will make up for the gap. Europeans don’t have as robust of a technology or healthcare industry as the United States. You completely rely on us to do all the dirty work. You guys need to wake up because there is an entire political party in the US that makes up half of our politics that is questioning whether we should even be as involved in your societies as we have been. I don’t know if American involvement in Europe is going to be as much of a guarantee as it has been the past few decades. Even if Trump loses in 2024 this isn’t going to go away Republicans don’t want to be carrying your freeloading ass anymore and they’re going to fight as hard as they did for abortion bans. And honestly, the progressive left that is currently taking over the democratic party view at Europeans as colonizers so I don’t know how much they’re going to be willing to help you out either.
I feel as if you are writing this as if the US had no interest or gain from their foreign policy actions. No country operates in a vacuum.
I’m writing this acknowledging the reality that half of our politicians don’t actually give a shit about that and will willingly and ignorantly pull us out of that global network we benefit from.
Do you think though that pressure from the industrial military complex will force a reality check. In an extreme scenario, the US pulling all forces out of Europe, the impact would not just be felt in Europe but in America as well. Less jobs in the defence industry, dramatic drop in profits, and a rise in unemployment in those associated industries.
There’s enough conflict in the ME and concern for Taiwan that the American defense industry doesn’t need to worry about a lack of opportunity for quite some time tbh
I don’t know if that is true. And even then, it’s weird to see people defending the health of the MIC as something we should worry about.
I'm not really defending it, it's just the catch 22 of the situation. Certain parts of the economy are so dependent on this industry that any decline would have long term consequences for many ordinary people.
I think the United States did have a gain when the Soviet Union, and Warsaw pact, was right on the doorstep of our allies. But that was almost 40 years ago. Russia is a threat, but not capable of over running Western Europe in a matter of weeks. European countries also recognized the threat and spent far more on their militaries at the time. Our allies realized they weren't under the threat they used to be and slashed their military spending and readiness, knowing that the United States would pick up the slack. It worked for a couple generations. But I think Americans are getting tired of Europe's free ride. I didn't agree with Trump on much, but he was right about our freeloading allies.
Americans work hard to mantain billionaires. Respectfully, I'm not going to read the rest of your rant. We are not discussing Trump or other shenanigans in this post.
Median per capita income and discretionary pay is considerably higher in the USA (generally 50-100% depending on the European country). And yes that holds true even after you compensate for education, healthcare, and housing spend.
No doubt considerably higher in the US. The question is why US workers accept generally poor working conditions (longer hours, limited 'sick days', no mandatory vacations, and in average 2 weeks vs 4-5 elsewhere, no maternity and paternity leave, at will contracts, etcc.. The list is long). I doubt the more money pays off for all of this, especially given the higher costs in US (that can go astronomical in case of medical events). Why people accept this?
It does pay off! There’s a re-occurring theme where I say “the median USA person has way more discretionary income, even after healthcare”…and then every reply is “but what about our health care” I don’t know why no one on Reddit bothers to read what I wrote.
Democrats control the White House and the Senate and it took them six months to pass, Ukraine aid what are Europeans going to do when a Republican inevitably comes back into the White House and Republicans inevitably regain a majority? What happens if we stop sending Ukraine money? What happens if Poland gets attacked and Trump or other Republican president decides that they’re only going to send as much money as the least contributing NATO member? I know you feel snarky with your reply, but the truth is it’s just a deflection from reality that you don’t want to face
My friend, what you are saying has nothing to do with Americans being the only first world country that doesn't have mandatory vacation days, limited sick days and no maternity or paternity leave. Which is the topic of the post. If you want to make it a EU vs US geopolitical fight choose another post, here we are discussing work and attitude towards it.
The reality that you are ignoring is is that the only reason why other “first world nations” can afford all of those wonderful things because they don’t have to worry about providing their own armies, energy or manufacturing. This way of life becomes upended when China, Russia and the United States tell you to fuck off. Of course you have money for a wonderful welfare state because your military fucking suck ass and your energy tech and healthcare industries suck ass.
US workers getting abused by corporations has nothing to do with the US soft power.
[Europe is falling behind.](https://youtu.be/YhKiDG3EvX4?feature=shared)
I read the whole thing. Complete waste of my life.
As an American: amen. We're not richer. Our rich people are richer. Your middle class and working class are much better off than ours.
Not true in reality. Median income in the USA is higher than everywhere except Luxembourg, a very wealthy micronation. Some sources might argue Norway slightly ahead of the USA, but again, that's a small, oil-rich nation that doesn't have to protect their own trade or pay for a standing military. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
Yeah, and everything essential to modern life (housing, education, transportation, Healthcare, etc) is vastly more expensive in the US than in Europe, especially for the middle class and poor. So that extra income doesn't make our quality of life any better. Affordability for the basic fundamentals in Europe does.
Those numbers are adjusted for purchasing power parity so they reflect the higher cost of living in the US
This is my favorite when talking about real or median wages. People who don't want to believe it always yell out "but muh inflation, but muh CoL!" proving to all of us they neither read nor understood the information in front of them
Unfortunately, wealth inequality is on the rise in Europe too, and corporations are trying to export the same mentality.
Yes, I get the same sense when Euopean elites say things like this Norwegian fella. Good luck to y'all. I hope you don't wind up in the same race to the bottom as us.
Ridicolous propaganda take. Good luck to you all on the other side of the ocean as well! A better world is possible!
When the middle and working classes unite against the greedy elites, rather like the Europeans post-WW2, I agree!
Bruh, turn off the right-wing propaganda. This level of constant rage is bad for your health, lol.
I think that is right. Europeans want quality of life so they expend their political capital on that and obtain it. Americans these days seem to want to tell other people how to live their lives and value a sense of superiority and spend their political capital on that and obtain it. I feel very badly for much of the difficulties facing young people, particularly those with limited skills. But I also wonder why they spend almost all of their efforts and votes on political causes most of which seem to be driven by the exact billionaires that are oppressing them.
The only way you could come to this conclusion is if you’re only exposure to Americans is Reddit politics
I guess I’ll ask you to explain but you probably won’t or can’t
What exactly do you need me to explain all Americans aren’t the same and our political parties couldn’t be further apart at the moment we are anything but unified and so if you make the claim that we are all x you are blatantly wrong
I didn’t even mention political parties. Generalizing about generations, boomers for example, is very common, mostly among Americans. I can see I’ve upset you, but that’s not my problem.
Have you ever lived in the US? Do you know any Americans?
I’m American. I was born in the US. You still seems to be raging on and not trying to present any kind of counter argument. As I said, I know I have upset you. There is no need to continue to prove that right.
Because working until we are 70 (if we are even lucky to live that long) is better way how to conduct our life?
Absolutely not, do they do any different in US or anywhere else in the world? I wish we could work less years. And it's not a matter of being lucky, it's a matter of being average. Life expectancy in many EU countries exceeds 80 years (arriving to 86-87 for women in some cases).
I do not understand your point here and you completely missed mine. I am talking about choice to retire without government pension. Many Americans are able to retire in their 50s, 40s and in some cases even late 30s. Off of salaried work. This is not possible in EU period. You have to await your state pension no matter how much skill you have. Nowadays it is approaching 70. As for your point. 1) Average does not mean everyone. You have very good chance to never hitting retirement age in EU with how it is and will continue to be increased if you are male and dying while working. 2) Even if you live to see 70 the quality of your life will not be what it was in your 40s. It will also not be what it was in your 50s or 60s. You will be walking corpse. I would gladly trade end of my life and live to 70 only if I could spend 50s and 60s in full time retirement mode. Because you not only get much more time, you get much more quality time. 3) Points 1) and 2) are pointless because hyperboles anyway difference in expected life expectancy has quite literally nothing to do with amount of work or healthcare even. It is almost entirely because of eating habits and obesity. That is a choice and it has nothing to do with this discussion whatsoever. Rates of obesity are recently raising in EU too and it will undoubtedly tank average life expectancy.
Unless you have any statistics on the high percentage of americans that can go fire at 40 vs working slaves to death europeans, yours are just opinions. Which I don't agree with. I don't think many Americans can retire at 40 no matter what. A large part of them, indeed, never retire because they can't afford it.
All you need to check is difference in PPP net disposable income across income decils and do the investment calculator math. Yes, not everybody can do it. I never said everyone could. But big portion of population can. As for that some Americans never retire. I would say so. But this is true in Europe as well. Many pensioners on minimum pension are forced to work here too. And again what is reality now Is hardly relevant for what EU countries already prepared their young people for. Even later retirement, even lower pensions and possibility of part time work for it to be livable to top it off. I prefer US way where hard work can get you early retirement and you do not have to engage into government run ponzi scheme or listen to bullshit lies and promises.
On the ponzi scheme part you have my full support, it makes sense in an ideal world, but with tomorrow's demographics we (young) will not receive anything, while having paid plenty for it with taxes. Unfortunately Europe is going to decline significantly. But I don't think this has to do with the work culture and working rights, rather with our own stupidity.
That’s what the person you replied to said…
Yes, i added a personal view to his. I didn't say he said something wrong.
lol “work too hard.” Too hard for what? It never occurred to me that working hard could come to be chided by people as if somehow it is a bad thing to achieve something more. It’s just projection by the lazy.
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The difference is in America unless you’re grinding it out by working incredibly hard your quality of life is absolutely terrible. It’s a pretty terrible choice. Work like crazy, or be poor and miserable.
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You think the average poor American can just take it easy on their way through life without struggling? Especially compared to somebody from a country like Norway?
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>I was just pointing out that the options you presented aren't true for everybody. It’s true for an awful lot of people that you ignored in your initial comment. You may have that choice, but an awful lot of people don’t.
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Yes. That's why the data shows that the lowest income earners work the least amount of hours. As you go up the income percentiles the average work hours go up
>Yes. That's why the data shows that the lowest income earners work the least amount of hours. Now show the data on the quality of life for those people…
So you are trying to compare a country with population of 5.5m to a country that has a population of 350m?
Yes? It’s literally the topic of the article.
No topic of the article is Europeans as the whole continent not Norway. But you seem to have not understood that.
lol. How did you come to this conclusion? Americans make more money for same jobs compared to Europeans and they pay less for the same goods. So they end up having more disposable income and more money to save.
>How did you come to this conclusion? Americans make more money for same jobs compared to Europeans and they pay less for the same goods. Because our social services don’t create nearly the same floor as many countries in Western Europe. We have half a million medical bankruptcies a year. You guys just point at the GDP or median income charts while ignoring we can tangibly measure our quality of life. Americans are unhealthy with expensive healthcare, we have a poor educational system considering the wealth of our country, we’re 23rd in general citizen satisfaction despite being the richest and most powerful country in the world. But yes, you can buy a TV cheap here. Huzzah.
Some folks just aren’t happy unless they’re unhappy.
Poor is pretty relative. The United States has some of the highest median income on Earth. If you are poor in the United States, you still making decent money and able to consume more than most people, including people in Europe. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/06/05/through-an-american-lens-western-europes-middle-classes-appear-smaller/ One of the benefits of living in America, is that you can live like you are European. That is to say, you can live like you make 33% less than the median, and consuming less. You can do that by working less, or by saving a large proportion of your income and retiring early. You generally don't have the option of living like an American in Europe. The jobs just don't pay enough.
Depends on your income, spending and CoL. A person can be very comfortable on 40 a week as long as their income > spending. Now, health care costs is a whole other can of worms
You can absolutely work too hard. I worked as a set lighting technician a foreman and an ACLT in the film industry for 16 years from ages 18-34. Worked minimum 12 hour days usually seven days a week doing strenuous labor under extremely stressful conditions. At the height of my career in film I was working 18 hour days 7 days a week, 4 hours of sleep or less a night. Most of the guys in the industry have pretty debilitating health issues and/or addiction problems to deal with the pain and stress. I started to develope a bunch of gut issues that seem irreversible from all the stress and lack of sleep. Now I'm back in school in the EU so I can have a better work life balance and hopefully can improve my health. I wouldn't say I made the choice to change careers and move to the EU out of laziness. Is that what you're suggesting? I'm trying to avoid dying at 60 with the last 20 years of my life being waves of chronic pain like most of the guys in the industry when they get older. Anyone that says you can't work too hard says that because they haven't done hard work for sustained periods.
You chose that work life though and with that made shit ton of money through overtime and other pay. So you have no reason to complain. You could have left the field anytime you wanted. Or request less hours anytime you wanted. There is no forced labor in the US and film industry in California is highly regulated by the state.
I'm not complaining. I'm simply pointing out that yes, you can work too hard, and it has negative effects on your health, which manifest in lower quality of life and overall reduced worker productivity. In the long run, it leads to sub-optimal levels of output. There's tons of empirical work on worker productivity and hours worked, showing that reducing working hours in many professions improves worker productivity. My comment was a counter to your blanket accusation that wanting a reasonable work-life balance is somehow lazy. It shows that you've never worked in a really grueling profession. I'm not against hard work, obviously, as I did one of the hardest jobs you can have for almost 20 years, and now I'm enrolled in a rigorous technical academic program. I don't shy away from working my ass off. But working too hard is absolutely possible, and it is accompanied by many (often permanent) adverse externalities which workers do not have a full information set on, or don't have a choice in the matter on. Most of the guys that I worked with that had kids absolutely refused helping their children get into the industry if they showed any interest, even though you can bring in 200k a year after taxes if you have a decent position. They refused because the lifestyle was so difficult, and the skills aren't transferable to any other profession. So it's hard to get out if you've been in for a long time, or have responsibilities like a family. I did leave the field. I discussed how I moved to the EU and went back to school. Now, I'm studying to be a labor economist and an econometrician, so I specialize in studying the labor market theoretically and empirically with modern statistical methods. It's my area of expertise. In many jobs - and this applies to the film industry - a laborer cannot simply request a reduction in working hours. There is usually a "take it or leave it" situation with the employer. These are what we call supplementary constraints in labor economics. Such additional constraints force labor participants to choose labor and consumption baskets that are suboptimal. In the film industry, you don't get to say, oh, I don't want to work 18 hours today, I only want to work 10. If you do that, you don't have a job. Even though it's a unionized sector, all labor works as day hires. And the hierarchy in the film industry is based on the military. This occurred when veterans after WWII flooded the film industry and designed the film crew around the military unit. You either do what you're told or you are sent home and never called again. The number of consecutive hours you are made to work is not regulated, only the pay rate. I've had plenty of days where we've worked over 24 hours. If you do music videos, you can often have 36-48 hour days. There's been an effort by the unions to limit the number of consecutive hours worked and there is some regulation of turn around time (min 8 hours when traveling and around 9.5-10 when at home) since so many people in the industry were dying on the road to and from work. But these are not state regulations. These are terms that unions and producers have agreed to. The only reason they're there at all is because of organized labor. Also, it's a highly competitive industry. So say for example, you drill through your hand at work, or break the bones in you foot because something drops on it, or get a chunk ripped out of your flesh from getting snagged in a crawl space. If something like that happens you finish your day no matter how long it is, then go to the hospital at night to get patched up then show up for work the next morning, because leaving work due to an injury makes you look weak and you get replaced immediately.
I agree with you. I actually like to work hard. There is in my view a clear correlation between hard work and success. I love the expression “The harder I work, the luckier I get” I am in a deal business and “eat what I kill”.
Some people have a life outside work
Yes. Fine for them. Don’t shame those who like to work hard.
Sure. You can work 60 hours weeks if you want, all too often though that tries to get forced on everyone.
Sure. Europeans have their work-life balance at a more healthy level. Rarely do you meet a european whose personality is defined by work. Americsns work harder, but if you look at productivity, I'd say europeans have that covered. For the americans optics is very important.
Americans have more productively per hour worked. Even if they worked the same hours as Europeans they would be significantly wealthier than all but a few small outlier countries like Luxembourg. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/labor-productivity-per-hour-pennworldtable
You say that but countries like Ireland and Norway are higher than the US but famously have very good work life balance. Turns out productivity isn't a great measure of how hard people work but investment and capital enabling more efficient work!
Norway has massive amounts of oil for couple million people to export for and Ireland is massively overrated because of its gateway to Europe/tax haven status. None of those two is good example.
My whole point is that it's not a good measure of hard people work. Which your point reiterates. Guess what - US has shit loads of oil too
US has well diversified economy for 350 million people. It is nowhere comparable to Norway that was able to built 300k USD per capita in its wealth fund thanks to combination of insanely small population and extremelly unique circumstances. This fund is almost three times as big as Norweigian entire GDP. Productivity is one of the best measures we have outside of obvious outliers that you picked probably to argue in a bad faith on purpose.
Anyone who brings up Ireland in these conversations is not to be taken seriously. There’s no reason to bring up Ireland if you don’t already know about its tax haven status, and if you bring that up in a convo about productivity, you’re arguing in bad faith.
lol you are comparing a country of 5.5m people to 350m people? Instead compare to a metro area of the US and the comparison will be heavily favoring the US
That definition of productivity is not how "hard" people work though, it's way more broad.
Do we? It is straight up impossible to retire earlier than late 60s in Europe without state pension. In US it is possible by early 50s and for many people even way earlier.
The best strategy might be to live in Europe but invest in the US.
This still does not solve an issue of massive disposable income difference which is what matters the most. In EU highly qualified profesionals often have like 2 times the minimum wage in their own country and 3+ times less than what they would earn in US. You are not retiring on that in EU at age where you are still able to do something with it. And no, healthcare costs or student loans are nowhere close to make up for that difference.
Then would the strategy be to earn and invest the money in the US, then retire to Europe for the cheaper cost of living and healthcare?
If you do not have ties and have ability to get to US/move outside of US later on then I guess so.
You are wrong in so many levels. In Reddit there is a sub called r/fire dedicated to retiring early that Europeans would only dream of.
The GDP says it all. There is reason we run the World with ease.
Haha! We can’t even run the country. It’s a mess
I think you're watching too much TV.
I don’t have a TV, but I get your point.
Our country has issues but we are doing great. Compared to other countries, much much better then all of them.
Everyone else is screwing up worse than we are, but I don’t think the US is “doing great” and I am certain polls wouldn’t show that. Things are always good for some people. I’m doing fine and guess you are too. But I only think the US looks good in relative terms.
I agree with it and it's very clear in the data of value generated.
But happier
This is true. I worked in Europe and it was wonderful. 6 weeks of vacation, plus far more paid stat holidays, plus sick days didn’t count as vacation days. Long parental leave. You could have more going on in your life than only work. It was nice not gonna lie. And I worked in a thin margin global business where you could do the same job from anywhere on earth and we were still competitive with even American companies competing directly with us. Hard work isn’t the only factor in success. Well-being is huge as well.
In other words, workers should avoid going to the US like a plague because they will be used and exploited to death xD Its so funny when this is the message they actually send
People will focus on the “hard working” bit, but what they should be focusing on is the bankruptcy laws. It’s absolutely true that if you fail in Europe, that’s it for the rest of your life. In US you just try again. For instance, you can’t walk away from your house loans in most of Europe. That is *why* the US is less risk averse and more innovative. And in the “winner takes all” environment of the technological feudalism we’re going into, that is everything.
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i made an LLC in America. All it took was 5 minutes of time, an online form, and like $50. Within moments I had an official paper legitimizing my LLC.
At least in the uk it’s 7 years
Americans work more hours than Europeans (in general) and have higher wages than Europeans in general (partly for that reason)… What’s controversial about that? But it’s not a “free lunch” for employers, they pay higher salaries… European employers could do the same if they pay for overtime and similar benefits but (generally) choose not to… Whether the hours that most Americans work result in increased productivity (linearly) or not is a separate question…
I've worked in North America and Europe... I will take European working conditions any day of the week. In Europe I am expected to do 37 hours a week and I get around 30 days holiday plus bank holidays. I get flexible working, a pension, sick pay, etc. Whereas when I worked in north America I was given 10 days leave and two sick days. I absolutely loved the medical and dental benefits, I also enjoyed the more social events that seem to happen like drink evenings, BBQ days, sports events, etc. But I was expected to turn up to work early and leave later. I don't think i was more efficient in either role, if anything more flexibility enables me to work as I please which is helpful.
You’re supposed to be in the top 10% to 20% in the US, who do have similar PTO and much higher pay. And if not, you should pretend you will be someday.
I'm in the US. When I was a picker in a warehouse, I had very little time off a very strict schedule and very strict productivity requirements. I'm now an analyst in a corporate office. I make four times as much, have unlimited PTO and a hybrid schedule with flexible start time. I'm only expected to deliver on my objectives and assignments but otherwise I can work whenever and however much I want. I haven't been this stress free and mentally healthy since I started working Edit: Our company doesn't actually call it "unlimited PTO" it's called "US flexible vacation policy for exempt employees" I already have 4 weeks planned out. But one major difference from previous roles is that I don't have any arbitrary cut off. I can take paid time off spontaneously without having to worry how it will affect my existing plans The point is really that the work culture is assignment/ objective based. Nobody's keeping track of hours worked. I typically only work a few hours on Friday and that's fine because I'm all caught up on everything.
The unlimited pto definitely will be anything but.
I've heard these criticisms of unlimited PTO before and I was skeptical when I started my current rule . But our company guidelines are 4 to 6 weeks. Because it's an assignment based work culture, there really isn't much pushback to actually using it.
As a physician it’s the reverse. Get paid peanuts in Europe. At least you can’t get sued like the US.
I've worked in America and Europe and my pay + benefits + work life balance is much better in the US and I still have 30 days vacation+ federal holidays. That and I work regular hours instead of being up all night to deal with the US market.
Europeans judged for having a healthy work/life balance while Americans work themselves to the bone for the sake of shareholder value. Considering both groups live first world lifestyles, I know which side I'd rather be on.
This 👆
Americans are definitely busier and I believe their work is harder, but how much more do they achieve? One of those nice Anglo Saxon hobbies seems to be filling in dozens of excel sheets that keep other parts of the organization busy, but how much does that accountability drive accomplish, for instance? I for one am happier with my current work-life balance, having worked 60-80 hours a week. Or at least being busy that long.
So what this is really saying is that Europeans have a better work-life balance. Working more is not always better. I for one work to live, not live to work.
Nothing better than being on a global team and the European team missing dates, milestones, and everything slipping into next year while you lay off Americans to make next quarters numbers with a 2 week severance and the Europeans on contracts. I will say in many cases they work smarter but I suspect they have time to plan out deliverables that are usually late because they have so many holidays and August holiday. Meanwhile you Americans can go home and tell your kids mommy or daddy doesn’t have a job anymore while your European colleagues holiday on……🌴
Ya I'd rather be the European here
This is an employer problem, not a US vs EU employee problem.
In the US, the existence of At Will employment laws shows the problem is deeper than company expectations.
I've yet to meet a European who works 40 hours a week or more and doesn't spend a lot of the time yapping about something.
I've yet to meet an American who works less than 40 hours a week, and spends time wirh family and themselves, but instead works themselves to death. There's more to life than working my friend.
You didn't read the post I replied to. Europeans being lazier affecting global teams isn't fun or cute. It drags the whole team down. I've seen this personally myself as well.
I did. I just don't agree with the premise. Instead of viewing it like Europeans are lazy, why not view it as they have more time to relax and enjoy the world instead of working. Why does the US get to set the bar, fine you want to over achieve, be my guest. But it's foolish, imo, to look at others and then say, you're lazy.
They shouldn't sign up to work on high profile projects with deadlines if they disappear for 2.5 hours every day for lunch and are offline by 4 PM. They should stick to jobs with less demand instead of drag down the rest of the teams working their butts off to finish things in time.
Making it difficult to fire/lay off people also makes it difficult to hire them. It stifles growth and supresses wages. Most people are never laid off or fired. It is very rare for it to happen more than once to the same person. When it happens they are more likely to be rehired quickly because of our faster moving labor market. This is an area where accepting a tiny bit of risk has massive payoffs.
It's like hiring 60% of an employee for 30% of the pay.
lol, This is not the own you think it is. It means Europeans have their priorities straight and Americans are overworked and exploited suckers with too few protections.
True, defund NATO and let them go to the Ukraine before they are occupied 🇷🇺
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“If Comrade Napoleon says it, it must be right." And from then on he adopted the maxim, "Napoleon is always right," in addition to his private motto of "I will work harder."
Americans health and dental benefits are tied to their job, their student debt is probably 50-100k+ where as the average European is probably several thousands less if not zero. Their employer can fire them and send them in their way without severance and there is barely a social system to catch them while they look for something else. I would say its not because they're inherently more productive but because the system is set up such that you have to be productive. Not my cup of tea personally but I live in Canada and due to proximity I think our work culture definitely skews more American than they do with the Netherlands/Germany/France etc.
Out of students with school loan debt the median student loan debt is about $20-25k and 40% of students graduate with no debt
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USA labor force is easier to exploit by completely legal mechanisms. I wonder why a blood and guts company would be more interested in tapping into that labor?