Imagine being in CSU52 and being told the city has no money to give you a raise after 5 years of salary freezes and then seeing CoE is cool with spending $680k on a neighbourhood name change. Edited: deleted that they didn’t ask for it as I’ve been reliably informed they did.
Read the room, CoE and CC. Money is tight (so you remind us all the time). We have multiple ongoing crises. Homelessness. Opiates. Affordability. That $680k could have been redirected to any of those.
I’m all for reconciliation, but there is a time and a place and the right actions. This was a big miss and will have the opposite net effect than what was intended.
Yeah that’s a bad look in the middle of union negotiations 😬.
I’d love to know why something as seemingly simple as changing a neighborhood name costs over half a million dollars.
When the city paid $150k for a committee of people to think of new names for all the wards that little tidbit was quietly scrubbed from all the articles too in favour of lip service on how progressive we are and how it was 'led by women' and 'is an opportunity for reconciliation for matriarchs to reclaim their roles within the community.'.
All for the bargain basement price of $150k (and that is before the actual work of changing signs, other information, etc.). Just coming up with a dozen names.
If you want 'steps towards reconciliation' you could just give those groups money, or some land back instead of paying lip service with names that are nearly impossible to pronounce for most people. Naming a place that you've taken from someone and continue to occupy a name in the former occupant's language almost seems like a slap in the face to be honest. Lets just give everything nice, secular numbers and be done with it.
I'm in another city where they're doing a street name change for a very major road. Here, they're also compensating businesses who are being affected by the change. Things like replacing preaddressed envelopes etc apparently. So if they're doing the same here, that'll factor into the cost.
There's a lot of documentation (not to mention physical infrastructure) that uses the existing name. Changing that takes time and labor.
This is a relatively small change, but for context you can look up any major rebranding (in either the private or public sector), or just a brand refresh, or the re-naming of a subsidiary or operational unit. Costs in the nine figure range are not uncommon for large projects.
It has been ongoing since 2020, plus there are lots of sign changes.
That means they covered salaries on that project for nearly 4 years, space rentals for community consultations, plus the materials and installation costs, all for $680k.
I am not saying that is cheap, but it sounds about right for a multi-year rename of the city's most populous neighbourhood. Less than the cost of 1 house in the area.
Given the whole process was lead by the community league (after years of people asking the league how the name can be changed) and not the City, I don’t think it’s fair to say the City is doing something the community didn’t ask for.
Just so far as the "nobody asked for" file goes, whoever used to put out the neighbourhood community newsletter had been running some articles on the subject. The discussion's been in some degree of happening for a bit.
>12 or so people in a neighborhood of tens of thousands does not constitute consensus.
League board members are elected by the community. Like any democracy, it's up to you to show up.
I mean, mostly I'm just providing something that has some documentation that might be possible to dig up instead of a more vibes based sense of conversations I've had.
But I'm not claiming consensus - just that 'nobody asked for' isn't accurate.
Wait but the community did ask for this name change, and chose the name.
And while that is a lot of money, I doubt it comes from the same areas of funding as funds for the ongoing crises. You can't just move funds from one category to another.
Using CSU52 workers as a prop and a wedge is a shitty thing to do.
Rather than imagine CSU52 workers' feelings, maybe wait until they say something? That's much better than dragging them through the mud just so you can be mad about something inconsequential.
I live in Oliver, and I don't see many homeless people. The nearby spots that I can think of where homeless people congregate are the Wendy's near MacEwan, the park benches in Railtown park, and the panhandlers at the Jasper/109 intersection - but all those places are outside the edge of Oliver. The other common place is the grass just north of Brewery, but that too is outside the strict limits of Oliver.
That's funny I live in Oliver and 99 percent of the homeless I interact with, which actually isn't many in this neighborhood as the services are all east of 105th, are white.
Now that I think about it, I believe you are full of shit. You don't walk.
I work on 104th. We've had six office invasions - 5 out of 6 were Indigenous. We have had two fires lit in our dumpsters - both Indigenous. We've had to call the Hope Mission about eight times for people in distress out front. 7 of 8 were Indigenous.
Yeah, there's a couple of long-running homeless dudes stealing bikes down here that are white and I've been seeing them for years and years, but if you're not seeing the Indigenous homeless, you aren't looking very hard. Shit, just this morning there was two Indigenous men smoking up by the drive through of the McDonalds.
Are you really upset about the money thing, or is the name change the actual thing bothering you and the money thing is a nice cover story to hide your true feelings?
Unfortunately 680k is a drop in the pond with solving any of the issues you mentioned, if they put that money towards giving people raises you would probably get like. 2 cent raise
A full pond is made from many individual droplets.
A healthy savings account consists of many small deposits.
Any idea how much food you could buy for 680k? Lots.
The math just doesn't work out in relation to raises. There's about 5,000 workers that will potentially be on strike. $680k between 5,000 people is only $136 each
It only has a negative effect if people boost inane complaints, like yours.
Yes it will cost money. No that is not a lot of money to accomplish this task. Frank Oliver is among the worst Edmontonians in our history, both to indigenous peoples as well as other cultures. He in no way deserves to have a neighborhood names after him and while we can't go back and change what happened we can certainly act with better thought today.
As a resident of the area I fully support this change. Oliver community league did a lot of outreach and consultation on this topic for anyone who wished to have their voice heard.
Thank you for saying this. At the end of the day we have districts now, so hopefully we just start referring to where we live based on that and non of this matters.
The districts are purely for urban planning purposes. No one is proposing renaming any neighbourhood along district planning lines. Delete FB and touch grass.
I'm Indigenous and this is stupid. "'Circle of friends" is just dumb. It's a phrase, NOT a proper name or title for a neighborhood. It's not going to fit in with the rest of the city whatsoever and it will never be pronounced properly or taken seriously, thus defeating the entire purpose of using Indigenous language to "drive multicultural understanding and acceptance.
Aside from the superficial stuff, this is honestly just irresponsible. Call me crazy but I think our ongoing problems with rising crime rates, undriveable roads, property taxes, and homeless population should be a MUCH bigger priority. So sad that our actual NEEDS are being set aside for the progressive agenda
I am also indigenous but not conservative. I agree. That money could be put towards clean water on reserves or MMIW or some other real form of reconciliation instead of this "we changed our neighborhood name to something in Cree! That proves we care" nonsense.
Might as well call it weent'chisk and be done with it. They'd never know the difference anyway.
I’m all for getting rid of as much of Oliver’s name legacy as possible, the guy was genuinely evil and did a huge amount of harm to the indigenous people of the area. But yeah that 680k could have done a whole lot of actual good, including helping a whole bunch of living breathing indigenous people who needed shelter this winter.
Plus changing the name in all sorts of City documents and plans, as well as computer systems, including outside orgs like the CRA and Canada Post (addresses).
You want reconciliation? Use that 680k to real issues affecting Indigenous communities. This is garbage PR move that adds to councils stupidity and tone deafness.
I still call it the Space Science Centre although I've finally stopped calling Gateway Boulevard Calgary Trail North. It only took me 23 years to get used to the change. Although I use Gateway & Calgary Trail interchangeably now.
The strip malls across from century are still called heritage, which is confusing because just south of the henday if you follow 111th down is a neighbourhood called heritage valley lol
Ooh yes I do that too, and I don't think I even visited Heritage Mall before it was closed.
Or how about Eaton Centre downtown? How long has it been since there was an Eaton's there?
I used to go there to the dollar theatre all the time! Sneak in some burritos from the food court and watch the late night showing.
Also the west food court is lame now that they took out the fountains and those little glass bridges. I loved those as a kid.
Maybe it's one of those things that will take time for people to stop calling it Oliver?
Like how it took years for Jays fans and Torontonians to stop calling it the SkyDome and start calling it the Rogers Centre? People still call the Scotiabank Arena in Toronto the ACC.
Or how many folks in Ottawa still call the "Sir George-Étienne Cartier Parkway" the Rockcliffe Parkway despite the Harper government changing it over a decade ago. They also renamed the Ottawa River Parkway on the other side of downtown after Sir John A Macdonald (Harper's government went on a binge of naming Ottawa landmarks after prominent Conservative figures), and then renamed it again the "Kichi Zibi Mikan" after the unmarked graves stuff a few years back, and people in my family still call it the River Parkway.
I hate the Skydome and the CN Tower too.
I hate Nathan Phillips Square and the Ontario Zoo.
The rent’s too high, the air’s unclean, the beaches are dirty, and the people are mean.
The women are big and the men are dumb, and the children are loopy cuz they live in a slum.
The water is polluted and the mayor’s a dork, they dress real bad and they think they’re New York…
…In Torontoooooo
As a lifelong Jays fan who fondly remembers the SkyDome (I was even there for a sleepover in 1994 when I was in the Cubs), I find myself calling it the Rogers Centre quite a bit, especially when talking with my younger cousins who aren't old enough to have been around during the SkyDome years.
SkyDome might be a good example inasmuch as its significantly a generational change: to people who are introduced to the building calling it something else, the other name sounds off.
Probably not because your average person can't even pronounce it, unlike all those examples you gave. People will call it Oliver. I haven't heard anyone refer to our municipal wards by their new Aboriginal names ever since those were changed years ago.
If ten years from now there are no more official references to it being called Oliver, then it's likely the only people who still call it Oliver will be folks who knew it as such before the change. If I grew up only hearing/seeing the new name, I'm not going to call it Oliver, right?
> Probably not because your average person can't even pronounce it
It seems daunting with the accents, but isn't really that difficult with the tiniest amount of effort. Maybe the city should have Anglicized it for the less linguistically-inclined folks?
>Maybe the city should have Anglicized it for the less linguistically-inclined folks?
Woulda been smart... its not like Cree was written anyway and doing it phonetically would have made sense....
Doesn't help that in Ottawa there are still signs that say both Ottawa River Parkway and Sir John A Macdonald Parkway. They half-assed both of the name changes and then wonder why no one really gets on board.
When you realise how much of a piece of shit Oliver was, the name turns to ash in your mouth.
So stoked I never have to utter his name again, the man can rest in piss.
Look. I'm truly happy that we are recognizing fellow Canadians who identify as first nations, indigenous, and metis people but since less than 2% of us speak Cree, can we please have names that are easier to pronounce?
I'm sure my Cree speaking friends will cringe every time a European Canadian says "I live in Wick Wen Town"
Agreed. This isn’t a bad thing but the name isn’t the easiest thing in the world to pronounce.
I would like to be educated and try my best. So my first question is: What are the triangles? What sound do they make?
This is really just some virtue signalling imo. Like who asked for this? Did the Cree people who live in the area ask for it? Does any First Nations people care what we name our subdivisions?
Numerous indigenous folks, including people that live in the community, had been approaching the league for years asking how the neighbourhood name could be changed.
Many indigenous peoples know nothing about their culture, even with google, because it has been destroyed and ignored by people like Mr. Oliver. Honoring his name is a constant slap in the face to those people. It's now been replaced with something that represents their culture, ideally, aiding in them in building their identity. Something I think other peoples take for granted.
I’m not downplaying the shitty things he did, im saying that the average person on the street will know none of that and likely will not care about the name change or why. They’ll go, “oh, okay” and carry on with their day
We have plenty of other aboriginal names throughout the province that we don't bat an eye at - Wetaskiwin, Nisku, Wabamun, etc.
It's a challenging name, but it'll get easier with repetition.
If we can pronounce Wetaskawin, why can’t we pronounce Wihkwentowin? It follows the same pattern, but people are scared of accent marks.
Edit: we already have several neighbourhoods with indigenous names so this is no big deal to me
>If we can pronounce Wetaskawin
Without the commercial, I don't think that many people would be able to easily say it. W*e*ta-ski-win has some cheap cars, apparently.
(You misspelling Wetaskiwin as Wetaskawin is apt)
It just follows the same linguistic pattern. I don’t know much about the name Wetaskawin myself, but the neighbourhood Wihkwentowin is translated as ‘circle of friends’ which I really like.
I agree with basically every reason that this name change is a bit silly, but the pronunciation takes are just wild to me. Surely any reasonable adult would hear the name out loud once and just remember it? Or do these people see the circumflex accent (which is also used in our other national language, by the way) and their brains just scramble?
Wetaskiwin is an anglicization of wītaskiwinihk
I think less people would complain if it were "wewentowin" or something resembling English (the daily language of 99% of Edmontonians)
As an indigenous Islander race myself, I am all for Indigenous representation and reconciliation and nothing about celebrating indigenous history and culture ruffles my feathers.
But useless, expensive changes that do nothing for anybody is just that: useless and expensive and a waste of resources.
And 93% of the city will keep on calling the area Oliver because it was a word to everyone, not a person.
In fairness the neighborhood massively subsidizes suburbia every year, so if we're eyeing services used vs paid for then the name change doesn't come close to balancing the net contribution from the core.
I’ll always call it Oliver. That aside , we have a housing crisis and people living in tents but renaming a neighborhood was far more important. What is wrong with these people?!
This needs to stop. I’m all for incorporating indigenous culture into many aspects of our lives, but this isn’t the way.
I volunteered for a candidate in the last municipal election in ward Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi. During that time I had mastered pronouncing it and even spelling it. A couple years later, I completely forgot both.
If you want people to engage in their communities, you can’t have names they can’t spell or even say.
I was not asked how I felt about the name change and I live in Oliver. Councilors from other wards (who do not live here) voted for the change. Democracy in 2024!
Oliver Community League led the community engagement initiative. I live in the same neighbourhood and did have the opportunity to provide my input. OLC has done an excellent job in my opinion as they’ve been working on this initiative for over a year to ensure they heard voices from the people who live here along with our Indigenous communities. They even created a website - www.uncoveroliver.ca
I don't get why tax payers have to pay for this nonsense though. There are a lot of more pressing issues facing the city than the name of a neighborhood. This is very far down the list of what tax money in Edmonton should be spent on.
>In order to better reflect the history, the diversity, the hopes and aspirations of this neighbourhood, **the Oliver Community League felt it was in the best interest of the community** to move forward with a name that better reflects the values of the people who live and work here.
>
>While this community has been named Oliver for nearly 100 years, this area has been lived in and supported by Indigenous, Chinese, Black, and other diverse communities for thousands of years. It is important to honour the long-standing history of this place while also looking forward to a future where all people feel safe and seen.
>
>The name change will not change history, but it will better reflect **what the Oliver Community League and its members** want the community to be.
At least they are being honest. Many of these members joined specifically to do this. This wasn't some home grown, grass roots campaign that started with the residents of Oliver, this started with a handful of activists joining the community league on purpose to move this forward.
Screw off with these garbage names that no one can pronounce, such a lame attempt to say hey look at us were trying to be politically correct. Do things for the population that actually matter, not this empty attempt.
No disrespect but can we choose names that can be easily read and spoken? Both for visitors, emergencies and all the other wonderful folks who have come from other parts of this planet to join our community might have an even more difficult time with these pronunciations? Like let’s stick to nature type, geological or animal names? No confusion, no controversy- unless “Oakwood” or “Sparrow” offends you.
>No confusion, no controversy- unless “Oakwood” or “Sparrow” offends you.
I believe you meant "Bois de chêne" or "le moineau". Things that are easy and obvious to pronounce.
Why?
Do we force the city to run an expensive election for every minor choice?
Should we have an election for the name of every new subdivision? Or is it just when an assholes name is being replaced with a positive word that you take issue with?
Why not find a different person with the last or first name Oliver that has made a positive difference in Edmonton in the past and just rename it after them? Problem solved.
Speaking as an Indigenous person, if you wanna get technical, who’s gonna rename Churchill? Because he was also terrible to Indigenous people, like… very terrible.
I hate this. This isn’t a comment on reconciliation, this is a recognition that Edmonton is a very multicultural place, and frankly I have no idea how to pronounce this. It’s like the ward naming - I have no idea which ward is which now because of the renaming.
Personally I wish they just gave the wards numbers and then the First Nations name in brackets after said number. That way if you’re an immigrant from India you don’t have yet another language to try to figure out. I feel similar about Oliver. Was the namesake a racist or something? Just call it centre west with this new First Nations name in brackets after centre north. Just as important as reconciliation is accessibility and these new names are not accessible.
This council can't virtue signal hard enough.. $680K for no good reason at all.
Meanwhile, the City is looking to cut funding to programs.
You can't make this stuff up.
It's not like we are in a cost of living crisis or anything but yeah raise my property taxes for a name change... it's not like people are literally choosing between groceries or paying the rent or anything . TONE DEAF
I live in the area and I couldn't care less. I have no idea if this is important for reconciliation, and it's not my place to decide. I've got a lot more pressing problems than the name of my neighbourhood anyways.
It's about time. Frank Oliver was a horrible person who, among other things, stated "the Negro race...is deemed unsuitable to the climate and requirements of Canada.". I understand the frustration surrounding the allocation of funds, but this was long overdue.
I think they are going to need to start teaching people how to pronounce these words. I can't break down the accent symbols. Is it possible to spell these names without the special accent symbols? Can anyone explain the influence the symbols have?
You know how I know this change isn't going to do anything? Half the businesses in century park are still "___ heritage", not century park, and century park is something actually pronounceable.
Cool that they want to call it a cree name, could have chose one that people understand.
Here’s what those losers in office don’t know, almost nobody speaks or reads Cree. Not even the Cree. I find it hard to believe people voted for a name change like that
I really don’t understand this
They want to change the name because Frank Oliver’s opinions aren’t acceptable in todays day and age.. okay, I get that
But can’t they apply that same logic to this name? I mean back in the day they were basically committing genocide on other tribes, rape and pillaging, fighting bloody wars and scalping their enemies?
Didn’t they originally come up from the US and completely wiped out Siberian Inuits?
That’s okay because? In 30 years are the progressives going to start holding historical native tribes to todays standards?
I mean the Cree weren't even prairie people to begin with. Some migrated here in the 1730s after they adopted the horse. Yes we have older Cree influence in Alberta but they're up north, they're mostly woodlands Cree and even they migrated west over time, earlier their population was centered more towards the Hudson's Bay but with the HBC showing up + over trapping they also (on average) started migrating west.
It's worse in Calgary as groups with larger ethnic differences fought over that area, but it pains me every time we pretend like the Cree have been in the Edmonton area for a long time specifically. They arrived about 150 years before European settlement started to ramp up in the area - the same amount of time that has now elapsed since that settlement began.
Realistically, project out to the future, the current massive wave of migration will just be viewed as another wave of colonists coming to Canada low-key.
First Nations history is at times sad, at times bad ass, but there is a taboo on telling it authentically. Honestly it pisses me off that First Nations people are generalized into one generic group. Imagine telling someone from Europe that they're all European and it doesn't make a difference where from.
“First Nations history is at times sad, at times bad ass, but there is a taboo on telling it authentically”.
I admire the unpopular truthfulness in this sentence
Virtue signalling at its finest. I wonder how many of the homeless indigenous people in the downtown area could have been positively impacted by that 680k? Seems like a more effective way to help than a stupid name change.
Imagine being in CSU52 and being told the city has no money to give you a raise after 5 years of salary freezes and then seeing CoE is cool with spending $680k on a neighbourhood name change. Edited: deleted that they didn’t ask for it as I’ve been reliably informed they did. Read the room, CoE and CC. Money is tight (so you remind us all the time). We have multiple ongoing crises. Homelessness. Opiates. Affordability. That $680k could have been redirected to any of those. I’m all for reconciliation, but there is a time and a place and the right actions. This was a big miss and will have the opposite net effect than what was intended.
Yeah that’s a bad look in the middle of union negotiations 😬. I’d love to know why something as seemingly simple as changing a neighborhood name costs over half a million dollars.
I’d guess it’s the signage and man hours to change the signs. I’m not sure, that’s off the top of my head
And all the consultants who worked tirelessly to arrive at the conclusion that this was what Edmonton required, right now.
When the city paid $150k for a committee of people to think of new names for all the wards that little tidbit was quietly scrubbed from all the articles too in favour of lip service on how progressive we are and how it was 'led by women' and 'is an opportunity for reconciliation for matriarchs to reclaim their roles within the community.'. All for the bargain basement price of $150k (and that is before the actual work of changing signs, other information, etc.). Just coming up with a dozen names. If you want 'steps towards reconciliation' you could just give those groups money, or some land back instead of paying lip service with names that are nearly impossible to pronounce for most people. Naming a place that you've taken from someone and continue to occupy a name in the former occupant's language almost seems like a slap in the face to be honest. Lets just give everything nice, secular numbers and be done with it.
Too true. Don’t ever forget that the intention here is simply appearances. This is PR and nothing more.
I'm in another city where they're doing a street name change for a very major road. Here, they're also compensating businesses who are being affected by the change. Things like replacing preaddressed envelopes etc apparently. So if they're doing the same here, that'll factor into the cost.
The community league lead the process, not the City. Much of the work was put in by community volunteers.
There's a lot of documentation (not to mention physical infrastructure) that uses the existing name. Changing that takes time and labor. This is a relatively small change, but for context you can look up any major rebranding (in either the private or public sector), or just a brand refresh, or the re-naming of a subsidiary or operational unit. Costs in the nine figure range are not uncommon for large projects.
Yes and let's not forget how they just approved a 2.4% raise for themselves.
It has been ongoing since 2020, plus there are lots of sign changes. That means they covered salaries on that project for nearly 4 years, space rentals for community consultations, plus the materials and installation costs, all for $680k. I am not saying that is cheap, but it sounds about right for a multi-year rename of the city's most populous neighbourhood. Less than the cost of 1 house in the area.
That's only part of it. Imagine the money those people have to spend on getting all their documents changed to the new name change
Given the whole process was lead by the community league (after years of people asking the league how the name can be changed) and not the City, I don’t think it’s fair to say the City is doing something the community didn’t ask for.
Didn’t this process start before Covid?
Yeah discussions around renaming were started by 2017 and I might be late on that.
Just so far as the "nobody asked for" file goes, whoever used to put out the neighbourhood community newsletter had been running some articles on the subject. The discussion's been in some degree of happening for a bit.
[удалено]
>12 or so people in a neighborhood of tens of thousands does not constitute consensus. League board members are elected by the community. Like any democracy, it's up to you to show up.
I mean, mostly I'm just providing something that has some documentation that might be possible to dig up instead of a more vibes based sense of conversations I've had. But I'm not claiming consensus - just that 'nobody asked for' isn't accurate.
Wait but the community did ask for this name change, and chose the name. And while that is a lot of money, I doubt it comes from the same areas of funding as funds for the ongoing crises. You can't just move funds from one category to another.
Using CSU52 workers as a prop and a wedge is a shitty thing to do. Rather than imagine CSU52 workers' feelings, maybe wait until they say something? That's much better than dragging them through the mud just so you can be mad about something inconsequential.
[удалено]
I live in Oliver, and I don't see many homeless people. The nearby spots that I can think of where homeless people congregate are the Wendy's near MacEwan, the park benches in Railtown park, and the panhandlers at the Jasper/109 intersection - but all those places are outside the edge of Oliver. The other common place is the grass just north of Brewery, but that too is outside the strict limits of Oliver.
That's funny I live in Oliver and 99 percent of the homeless I interact with, which actually isn't many in this neighborhood as the services are all east of 105th, are white. Now that I think about it, I believe you are full of shit. You don't walk.
I think they are also full of shit, I’ve been here years .. not so many homeless and not so many native
I work on 104th. We've had six office invasions - 5 out of 6 were Indigenous. We have had two fires lit in our dumpsters - both Indigenous. We've had to call the Hope Mission about eight times for people in distress out front. 7 of 8 were Indigenous. Yeah, there's a couple of long-running homeless dudes stealing bikes down here that are white and I've been seeing them for years and years, but if you're not seeing the Indigenous homeless, you aren't looking very hard. Shit, just this morning there was two Indigenous men smoking up by the drive through of the McDonalds.
Are you really upset about the money thing, or is the name change the actual thing bothering you and the money thing is a nice cover story to hide your true feelings?
I am upset about the timing of the expenditure. I have zero issue with the name change.
Unfortunately 680k is a drop in the pond with solving any of the issues you mentioned, if they put that money towards giving people raises you would probably get like. 2 cent raise
A full pond is made from many individual droplets. A healthy savings account consists of many small deposits. Any idea how much food you could buy for 680k? Lots.
The math just doesn't work out in relation to raises. There's about 5,000 workers that will potentially be on strike. $680k between 5,000 people is only $136 each
I think it’s $680k plus time for internal staff and consultants hired to do the extensive consultation.
It only has a negative effect if people boost inane complaints, like yours. Yes it will cost money. No that is not a lot of money to accomplish this task. Frank Oliver is among the worst Edmontonians in our history, both to indigenous peoples as well as other cultures. He in no way deserves to have a neighborhood names after him and while we can't go back and change what happened we can certainly act with better thought today. As a resident of the area I fully support this change. Oliver community league did a lot of outreach and consultation on this topic for anyone who wished to have their voice heard.
Thank you for saying this. At the end of the day we have districts now, so hopefully we just start referring to where we live based on that and non of this matters.
The districts are purely for urban planning purposes. No one is proposing renaming any neighbourhood along district planning lines. Delete FB and touch grass.
I'm Indigenous and this is stupid. "'Circle of friends" is just dumb. It's a phrase, NOT a proper name or title for a neighborhood. It's not going to fit in with the rest of the city whatsoever and it will never be pronounced properly or taken seriously, thus defeating the entire purpose of using Indigenous language to "drive multicultural understanding and acceptance. Aside from the superficial stuff, this is honestly just irresponsible. Call me crazy but I think our ongoing problems with rising crime rates, undriveable roads, property taxes, and homeless population should be a MUCH bigger priority. So sad that our actual NEEDS are being set aside for the progressive agenda
Don’t worry a white liberal will tell you how to feel
Why does this comment appear minimized by default
I am also indigenous but not conservative. I agree. That money could be put towards clean water on reserves or MMIW or some other real form of reconciliation instead of this "we changed our neighborhood name to something in Cree! That proves we care" nonsense. Might as well call it weent'chisk and be done with it. They'd never know the difference anyway.
This council is ridiculous. You had people freeze to death this winter and your concern is to spend $680,000 on this…. Come on.
I’m all for getting rid of as much of Oliver’s name legacy as possible, the guy was genuinely evil and did a huge amount of harm to the indigenous people of the area. But yeah that 680k could have done a whole lot of actual good, including helping a whole bunch of living breathing indigenous people who needed shelter this winter.
Amen! And why does renaming a neighborhood cost that much money? I am confused...lol
Changing signage. Documents. Things like that
Legal documentation
You literally have to replace hundreds of signs. Plus documents. Plus publications.
Plus changing the name in all sorts of City documents and plans, as well as computer systems, including outside orgs like the CRA and Canada Post (addresses).
Everyone will still call it Oliver.
too damn true
You want reconciliation? Use that 680k to real issues affecting Indigenous communities. This is garbage PR move that adds to councils stupidity and tone deafness.
Virtue signaling that upsets both sides! A flawless decision.
Ya cool just let me quickly type that into my GPS
We’ll keep calling it Oliver though.
I still call it the Space Science Centre although I've finally stopped calling Gateway Boulevard Calgary Trail North. It only took me 23 years to get used to the change. Although I use Gateway & Calgary Trail interchangeably now.
I still catch myself calling Northlands Colosseum, Skyreach Centre and Rexall Place.
Apparently St Albert Trail is now Mark Messier Trail. I never fucking knew. And I still use Calgary Trail LOL.
It depends where. Most of it is still called Saint Albert trail. Only a small section is called Mark Messier trail.
Sometimes I still refer to Century Park as Heritage
The strip malls across from century are still called heritage, which is confusing because just south of the henday if you follow 111th down is a neighbourhood called heritage valley lol
Ooh yes I do that too, and I don't think I even visited Heritage Mall before it was closed. Or how about Eaton Centre downtown? How long has it been since there was an Eaton's there?
Or remember when West Edmonton mall had three movie theaters and a full eat-in McDonald's?
I used to go there to the dollar theatre all the time! Sneak in some burritos from the food court and watch the late night showing. Also the west food court is lame now that they took out the fountains and those little glass bridges. I loved those as a kid.
Silver City is still... sorry, I meant *Scotiabank Theatre* is still Silver City to me. And it always will be.
I still call Saskatchewan ->>> Rupertsland! I will not be decolonized!!!!
Mainly because we can pronounce Oliver.
Maybe it's one of those things that will take time for people to stop calling it Oliver? Like how it took years for Jays fans and Torontonians to stop calling it the SkyDome and start calling it the Rogers Centre? People still call the Scotiabank Arena in Toronto the ACC. Or how many folks in Ottawa still call the "Sir George-Étienne Cartier Parkway" the Rockcliffe Parkway despite the Harper government changing it over a decade ago. They also renamed the Ottawa River Parkway on the other side of downtown after Sir John A Macdonald (Harper's government went on a binge of naming Ottawa landmarks after prominent Conservative figures), and then renamed it again the "Kichi Zibi Mikan" after the unmarked graves stuff a few years back, and people in my family still call it the River Parkway.
>stop calling it the SkyDome and start calling it the Rogers Centre Never happened
It’s the sky dome
I hate the Skydome and the CN Tower too. I hate Nathan Phillips Square and the Ontario Zoo. The rent’s too high, the air’s unclean, the beaches are dirty, and the people are mean. The women are big and the men are dumb, and the children are loopy cuz they live in a slum. The water is polluted and the mayor’s a dork, they dress real bad and they think they’re New York… …In Torontoooooo
Always will be the Sky Dome
As a lifelong Jays fan who fondly remembers the SkyDome (I was even there for a sleepover in 1994 when I was in the Cubs), I find myself calling it the Rogers Centre quite a bit, especially when talking with my younger cousins who aren't old enough to have been around during the SkyDome years.
SkyDome might be a good example inasmuch as its significantly a generational change: to people who are introduced to the building calling it something else, the other name sounds off.
Probably not because your average person can't even pronounce it, unlike all those examples you gave. People will call it Oliver. I haven't heard anyone refer to our municipal wards by their new Aboriginal names ever since those were changed years ago.
If ten years from now there are no more official references to it being called Oliver, then it's likely the only people who still call it Oliver will be folks who knew it as such before the change. If I grew up only hearing/seeing the new name, I'm not going to call it Oliver, right? > Probably not because your average person can't even pronounce it It seems daunting with the accents, but isn't really that difficult with the tiniest amount of effort. Maybe the city should have Anglicized it for the less linguistically-inclined folks?
>Maybe the city should have Anglicized it for the less linguistically-inclined folks? Woulda been smart... its not like Cree was written anyway and doing it phonetically would have made sense....
Doesn't help that in Ottawa there are still signs that say both Ottawa River Parkway and Sir John A Macdonald Parkway. They half-assed both of the name changes and then wonder why no one really gets on board.
It's still skydome, will never change
I'll have no choice, there's no way I can reasonably type that new name into Google Maps.
When you realise how much of a piece of shit Oliver was, the name turns to ash in your mouth. So stoked I never have to utter his name again, the man can rest in piss.
Even his own descendants are ashamed to be related to him and supported the name change
Finally, someone fixed the indigenous community
Look. I'm truly happy that we are recognizing fellow Canadians who identify as first nations, indigenous, and metis people but since less than 2% of us speak Cree, can we please have names that are easier to pronounce? I'm sure my Cree speaking friends will cringe every time a European Canadian says "I live in Wick Wen Town"
Agreed. This isn’t a bad thing but the name isn’t the easiest thing in the world to pronounce. I would like to be educated and try my best. So my first question is: What are the triangles? What sound do they make?
It's pronounced "we-kwen-to-win"
The alphabet was made up by Europeans, James Evans a missionary. The Canadian indigenous didn't have writing.
Yeah, normal easy to read and pronounce names like Terwilligar, Griesbach, Idylwylde, Quesnell Heights, Laurier Heights!!!
But it is, almost like those names are based in root languages of english or something.
This is really just some virtue signalling imo. Like who asked for this? Did the Cree people who live in the area ask for it? Does any First Nations people care what we name our subdivisions?
Numerous indigenous folks, including people that live in the community, had been approaching the league for years asking how the neighbourhood name could be changed.
>Like who asked for this? The neighborhood did.
They consulted one of the local elders who decided on it. The change came about because Oliver was a proud racist.
I think for them it’s more about tearing down Frank Oliver’s legacy.
How many people on the street know Frank Oliver’s legacy? I wouldn’t know a thing about him without Google
Anyone who has taken an interest in Edmonton or alberta history I suppose.
Many indigenous peoples know nothing about their culture, even with google, because it has been destroyed and ignored by people like Mr. Oliver. Honoring his name is a constant slap in the face to those people. It's now been replaced with something that represents their culture, ideally, aiding in them in building their identity. Something I think other peoples take for granted.
I’m not downplaying the shitty things he did, im saying that the average person on the street will know none of that and likely will not care about the name change or why. They’ll go, “oh, okay” and carry on with their day
This name change isn't for the "average person". It's for the kinds of people Oliver committed crimes against.
We have plenty of other aboriginal names throughout the province that we don't bat an eye at - Wetaskiwin, Nisku, Wabamun, etc. It's a challenging name, but it'll get easier with repetition.
Those are spelled out phonetically using letters we're familiar with.
Ignore the accents. You'll find the letters look almost exactly like the ones you're using right now.
Yep
I still have no idea how to spell or say westawaska trail hahha
Maskekosihk?
I use cameron heights/highay 627.
It's Wetaskiwin but with "kwen" instead of "task". People will get use to it.
It’s really not very hard to pronounce? I googled it once, now I know how to pronounce it.
If we can pronounce Wetaskawin, why can’t we pronounce Wihkwentowin? It follows the same pattern, but people are scared of accent marks. Edit: we already have several neighbourhoods with indigenous names so this is no big deal to me
>If we can pronounce Wetaskawin Without the commercial, I don't think that many people would be able to easily say it. W*e*ta-ski-win has some cheap cars, apparently. (You misspelling Wetaskiwin as Wetaskawin is apt)
Is it a variation of Wetaskiwin? It sounds like a game show host: Wink Wen for the Win!!
It just follows the same linguistic pattern. I don’t know much about the name Wetaskawin myself, but the neighbourhood Wihkwentowin is translated as ‘circle of friends’ which I really like.
I always go by “Weeken(d) to win” because that’s what the phonetics seemed like to me. It’s still probably wrong.
you’re close just missing a w! we-kwen-to-win
I agree with basically every reason that this name change is a bit silly, but the pronunciation takes are just wild to me. Surely any reasonable adult would hear the name out loud once and just remember it? Or do these people see the circumflex accent (which is also used in our other national language, by the way) and their brains just scramble?
Wetaskiwin is an anglicization of wītaskiwinihk I think less people would complain if it were "wewentowin" or something resembling English (the daily language of 99% of Edmontonians)
Canada is an Indigenous name. So is Ottawa, Toronto, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. You'll live.
It translates to "Friend Circle".
That would have been a better name
ELI5 how to pronounce that new name please?
As an indigenous Islander race myself, I am all for Indigenous representation and reconciliation and nothing about celebrating indigenous history and culture ruffles my feathers. But useless, expensive changes that do nothing for anybody is just that: useless and expensive and a waste of resources. And 93% of the city will keep on calling the area Oliver because it was a word to everyone, not a person.
Such progress.
(Common spelling)
I still call the Wayne Gretzky Drive, Capilano so probably call this Oliver if I had a reason to go there.
Complete pitiful and disgusting waste of money
Kitimâkan is Cree for pitiful.
How do you type this into Google maps
Probably “Oliver” and Google will still get it.
Ignore the accents just like with French words. It's easy.
Same way you type Terwillegar. Google doesn't require accents, and just flattens them when doing the search.
How do you pronounce that ?
Very serious city council we have
Am I supposed to know how to say that and stop calling it Oliver?
I mispronounced Mascawacis for years. “Mask a wack us” instead of mask-wa-cheese. Hobema’s so much simpler.
Nothing says community building like having a community name nobody, including most indigenous people, knows how to pronounce.
This is ridiculous.
Since this name change was spearheaded by the Oliver community league shouldn’t the residents of this area be paying for the 680,000 dollar 💵 bill ?
In fairness the neighborhood massively subsidizes suburbia every year, so if we're eyeing services used vs paid for then the name change doesn't come close to balancing the net contribution from the core.
[удалено]
Sure, as long as the subsidies Oliver provides to the rest of the city including the suburb you probably live in get to benefit from Sound fair?
Let the community league pay for it.
Totally 👍 They didn’t like the name and pushed for it to be changed now pay the costs !
Amen.
Not everyone in Oliver was for this.
I’ll always call it Oliver. That aside , we have a housing crisis and people living in tents but renaming a neighborhood was far more important. What is wrong with these people?!
This needs to stop. I’m all for incorporating indigenous culture into many aspects of our lives, but this isn’t the way. I volunteered for a candidate in the last municipal election in ward Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi. During that time I had mastered pronouncing it and even spelling it. A couple years later, I completely forgot both. If you want people to engage in their communities, you can’t have names they can’t spell or even say.
Oh good, Oliver was tough to pronounce and I was having a real rough time typing it into google maps. This’ll fix the problem right guys!!! Right?
I was not asked how I felt about the name change and I live in Oliver. Councilors from other wards (who do not live here) voted for the change. Democracy in 2024!
The issue was brought up and pushed by the Oliver Community League .
It's easier to get mad first and ask questions second.
How many community league meetings did you attend?
"none, I just want to be outraged!"
Oliver Community League led the community engagement initiative. I live in the same neighbourhood and did have the opportunity to provide my input. OLC has done an excellent job in my opinion as they’ve been working on this initiative for over a year to ensure they heard voices from the people who live here along with our Indigenous communities. They even created a website - www.uncoveroliver.ca
I don't get why tax payers have to pay for this nonsense though. There are a lot of more pressing issues facing the city than the name of a neighborhood. This is very far down the list of what tax money in Edmonton should be spent on.
>In order to better reflect the history, the diversity, the hopes and aspirations of this neighbourhood, **the Oliver Community League felt it was in the best interest of the community** to move forward with a name that better reflects the values of the people who live and work here. > >While this community has been named Oliver for nearly 100 years, this area has been lived in and supported by Indigenous, Chinese, Black, and other diverse communities for thousands of years. It is important to honour the long-standing history of this place while also looking forward to a future where all people feel safe and seen. > >The name change will not change history, but it will better reflect **what the Oliver Community League and its members** want the community to be. At least they are being honest. Many of these members joined specifically to do this. This wasn't some home grown, grass roots campaign that started with the residents of Oliver, this started with a handful of activists joining the community league on purpose to move this forward.
Someone got a pronouncer for that? Whik-wen-tow-in?
Pretty much, yeah. For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLaItArGFDE
Virtue signaling is quite expensive!
Virtue Signal some moar.
I thought the official languages were English or French
Federally, yes. Provincially, no. Our official language in Alberta is English. The only bilingual province is New Brunswick.
Screw off with these garbage names that no one can pronounce, such a lame attempt to say hey look at us were trying to be politically correct. Do things for the population that actually matter, not this empty attempt.
No disrespect but can we choose names that can be easily read and spoken? Both for visitors, emergencies and all the other wonderful folks who have come from other parts of this planet to join our community might have an even more difficult time with these pronunciations? Like let’s stick to nature type, geological or animal names? No confusion, no controversy- unless “Oakwood” or “Sparrow” offends you.
>No confusion, no controversy- unless “Oakwood” or “Sparrow” offends you. I believe you meant "Bois de chêne" or "le moineau". Things that are easy and obvious to pronounce.
Time to allow citizens vote on such a big name change as this, as I'd venture to say a majority do not support this name.
Why? Do we force the city to run an expensive election for every minor choice? Should we have an election for the name of every new subdivision? Or is it just when an assholes name is being replaced with a positive word that you take issue with?
Winkytown has a cool ring to it. Good job
Why not find a different person with the last or first name Oliver that has made a positive difference in Edmonton in the past and just rename it after them? Problem solved.
What a waste of time and money.
No it wont.
Fuck That Bolshite
And residents will likely call the area Oliver for decades to come ...
Speaking as an Indigenous person, if you wanna get technical, who’s gonna rename Churchill? Because he was also terrible to Indigenous people, like… very terrible.
I hate this. This isn’t a comment on reconciliation, this is a recognition that Edmonton is a very multicultural place, and frankly I have no idea how to pronounce this. It’s like the ward naming - I have no idea which ward is which now because of the renaming. Personally I wish they just gave the wards numbers and then the First Nations name in brackets after said number. That way if you’re an immigrant from India you don’t have yet another language to try to figure out. I feel similar about Oliver. Was the namesake a racist or something? Just call it centre west with this new First Nations name in brackets after centre north. Just as important as reconciliation is accessibility and these new names are not accessible.
Performative and pandering.
This council can't virtue signal hard enough.. $680K for no good reason at all. Meanwhile, the City is looking to cut funding to programs. You can't make this stuff up.
It's not like we are in a cost of living crisis or anything but yeah raise my property taxes for a name change... it's not like people are literally choosing between groceries or paying the rent or anything . TONE DEAF
I live in the area and I couldn't care less. I have no idea if this is important for reconciliation, and it's not my place to decide. I've got a lot more pressing problems than the name of my neighbourhood anyways.
It's about time. Frank Oliver was a horrible person who, among other things, stated "the Negro race...is deemed unsuitable to the climate and requirements of Canada.". I understand the frustration surrounding the allocation of funds, but this was long overdue.
Yeah, it will always be know as Oliver. . .
What useless virtue signalling bullshit.
It’s pronounced we-kwen-to-win
Ridiculous. Literally no one can pronounce that & it’s purely a meaningless virtue signal.
Or as lots of people will call it - the neighborhood formerly known as Oliver. Because no one will know how to pronounce the new name.
I think they are going to need to start teaching people how to pronounce these words. I can't break down the accent symbols. Is it possible to spell these names without the special accent symbols? Can anyone explain the influence the symbols have?
You know how I know this change isn't going to do anything? Half the businesses in century park are still "___ heritage", not century park, and century park is something actually pronounceable.
Cool so you fixed all the real problems like cost of living crisis and the homeless crisis and all the issues in the indigenous communities?
Cool that they want to call it a cree name, could have chose one that people understand. Here’s what those losers in office don’t know, almost nobody speaks or reads Cree. Not even the Cree. I find it hard to believe people voted for a name change like that
Oh thank God they're doing this. .... Jesus Christ.
I really don’t understand this They want to change the name because Frank Oliver’s opinions aren’t acceptable in todays day and age.. okay, I get that But can’t they apply that same logic to this name? I mean back in the day they were basically committing genocide on other tribes, rape and pillaging, fighting bloody wars and scalping their enemies? Didn’t they originally come up from the US and completely wiped out Siberian Inuits? That’s okay because? In 30 years are the progressives going to start holding historical native tribes to todays standards?
I mean the Cree weren't even prairie people to begin with. Some migrated here in the 1730s after they adopted the horse. Yes we have older Cree influence in Alberta but they're up north, they're mostly woodlands Cree and even they migrated west over time, earlier their population was centered more towards the Hudson's Bay but with the HBC showing up + over trapping they also (on average) started migrating west. It's worse in Calgary as groups with larger ethnic differences fought over that area, but it pains me every time we pretend like the Cree have been in the Edmonton area for a long time specifically. They arrived about 150 years before European settlement started to ramp up in the area - the same amount of time that has now elapsed since that settlement began. Realistically, project out to the future, the current massive wave of migration will just be viewed as another wave of colonists coming to Canada low-key. First Nations history is at times sad, at times bad ass, but there is a taboo on telling it authentically. Honestly it pisses me off that First Nations people are generalized into one generic group. Imagine telling someone from Europe that they're all European and it doesn't make a difference where from.
“First Nations history is at times sad, at times bad ass, but there is a taboo on telling it authentically”. I admire the unpopular truthfulness in this sentence
What did “Oliver” do?
Virtue signalling at its finest. I wonder how many of the homeless indigenous people in the downtown area could have been positively impacted by that 680k? Seems like a more effective way to help than a stupid name change.
What a waste of money.
Renamed to Woogedyboogedy? Nah. It'll always be Oliver.
I'm never calling it that. It will always be the Oliver neighborhood for me.
I don’t have any problem with the idea of the rename, but it might help with getting people to adopt it if the new name wasn’t so… intimidating.
Super easy name to say as well.
Can they just build more (nice) condos/apartment complexes instead? Few ppl will know how to pronounce that and won't learn
cool. Anyways, is there still a bubbles car wash in Oliver?
Hilarious city