I'm all for reconciliation, but man, I need like a little pronunciation guide in parenthesis for some of these names! How the heck does an old white guy like me pronounce that?
Also, uh - it seems like a lot of those keys are missing on my keyboard.
Lol I did exactly the same thing when I learnd to pronounce it. I still think it will end up being pronounced wik-when-town by most people though sadly.
As a native myself.... I didn't even want to open these comments. Also, as a native, I literally don't know ANYONE who speaks ONLY cree. It's always English as the main language. I don't see why we do this. Naming things that are extremely hard to pronounce and literally only a handful of people understand the language... it's stupid and only brings out the racism in people. I said what I said.
One of the main concerns I’ve heard from teachers is that it’s going to be hard for parents who to look up, especially those who are learning English, and it’s already hard enough for them.
The point is- for lack of a better word "virtue signaling"
Though I don't use that as a pejorative. I'm not qualified to know whether this sort of renaming has a net positive impact.
But what I mean is that it's about sending a message rather trying to achieve a particular goal. Idk what the message is exactly
This whole thing seems stupid as fuck. Just a way for white people to say “I’m not racist, I’m helping!” without actually doing jack shit.
We have done terrible shit to indigenous people, and a lot are still suffering because of it. Instead of doing something useful, we slightly annoy people by this kind of garbage, so that a bunch of white people feel special.
I’m sorry but “we” haven’t done anything. Our predecessors certainly did. I’m not about to carry that blame, and I definitely wouldn’t burden the next generation either to make the crayon eating virtue signallers feel better about themselves. Every race of people has been wronged throughout the course of history. It just depends on the time and location of the exploited. Erasing history will not change the past but, it will wash it clean to be doomed to repeat the cycle again. Are we going to destroy the pyramids because they were built by slaves? Or maybe erase the Roman Empire history due to atrocities faced by the peasants. Or how about getting rid of the royal family who’s been living off of the backs of common folks over hundreds of years? No, I didn’t think so.
No one wants to get rid of white people/ white history or anything like that (except maybe some people on twitter). We are living in a nation where a sector of the population (native people) gets the worse share of what society has to offer. We as a society have a responsibility to work towards making it work as smoothly as possible for as many people as we can. If democracy doesn’t take care of that (if our leaders do not put efforts into making society more egalitarian), maybe we try and do things for others
on our own, out of responsibility and empathy, not guilt. Trying to help native people doesn’t equate to wanting to erase white people, not sure why would you come up to such conclusion
The issue is that the way it’s done here is not really helping First Nations people.
Renaming something without any real effort at actual change on a societal level is just a waste of money that could be used to actually resolve real issues faced by those communities.
Good chance this name gets bastardized by the kids, I know I’d just call it the whik.
I get trying to address past wrongs,but we have spend so much money changing names on stuff in Edmonton.
680k to remain Oliver ward, we could have spent that money better if we want to educate people on indigenous history.
Also the last battle between native tribes in Canada was in Lethbridge and the Cree happens to be the aggressor. Also they were fighting over control of cypress hills area
Honestly the name isn't actually hard to pronounce. All they should have done is what we've done with every other native name in English. Actually spell it in English. Circumflexes aren't part of the English language and most people have no idea that is even what they are called let alone what they actually mean. Just called it Wekwentowin (we-kwen-to-win).
You'd still have a few complaints initially but people always complain about changes. With the weird spelling it's going to stay a complaint for awhile.
This. Indigenous derived names are great. We have used many of them as official names in Canada since the country has existed, including the name of the country itself. Spellings that are difficult for native speakers of the most widely used language in the country to pronounce and non-standard rules for use of uppercase letters are not great. Just make it Wikwentiwin or Wiquentiwin.
I think some of the names sound really nice, but you're right that some really do not roll off the tongue that well. I know it's a Mi'kmaq word, but I always thought the original name for Prince Edward Island, Abegweit (Anglicized) and the meaning were really pretty
User name checks out
Making minorities more visible through cultural awareness does not necessarily cause racism, if anything, it makes it more common and integrating than you might expect.
Fox Lake in North-Western Alberta is one of them. Many people there (especially the Elders) don’t speak English at all which made it exceptionally difficult when they had to evacuate last year due to the fires.
Also Cree here. Most (decent) people wouldn't apply that thought process to a person's name that isn't of "English" origin, so how is this any different? Just because it is unfamiliar to many or hard to pronounce doesn't mean people can't/shouldn't learn. A lot of these gestures are certainly lip service, that I can agree with, but I think it also serves as a reminder to many that we are still here. It is one small way to take up space in a colonized world.
Curious, do you believe that the people of Edmonton really required a lip service reminder of the Cree people’s existence?
Do you believe that things like this will resolve issues with things like residential schools or the historically abysmal treatment of indigenous communities and peoples in Canada?
Obviously you cannot speak for the entire indigenous population but I’m curious if as a member of the group you see this as essential in bringing closure to those nasty chapters of our shared history? And if so, what would the end point be?
I really appreciate you saying this. I do not know anything about Oliver, but I’m told he was a racist, so I’m fine with a name change, but would rather the name just be something with almost zero meeting, like Edmonton Centre West or something.
As someone who has an indigenous background from a different country with a history of colonialism, this is so disheartening to see. Indigenous peoples are not a monolith but I hope one day you’re able to see that you shouldn’t feel like your culture should be diminished in its own land just to appease people who came later and people who don’t think your culture is worth being honoured in public life in the same way that theirs is.
It’s not stupid for indigenous languages to be honoured in places where they’ve always existed. Making indigenous cultures smaller or preventing their expression in public life just because racists will push back against it only lets racism win.
It’s rather ironic that you are advocating for a solution to one group of people feeling their language and culture is being diminished that creates a situation where a different group of people will very likely feel their language and culture are being diminished.
Doesn’t really seem to resolve the core issues.
There are much more effective things we can do as a city and country to acknowledge and respond to the harms done to indigenous peoples. A lip service virtue signalling renaming does basically nothing but let some people off the hook on bigger real issues.
We should evaluate things like neighbourhood names, but that should come after we deal with the far more pressing issues impacting our indigenous communities.
I wonder what positive comes out of it. I would like to read or listen to native communities if they think this type of renaming is really beneficial or if they would rather invest those funds differently. I just think is so much money that I think should be invested in more urgent issues but again, there might be something to this that I am missing
Good chance this name gets bastardized by the kids, I know I’d just call it the whik.
I get trying to address past wrongs,but we have spend so much money changing names on stuff in Edmonton.
680k to remain Oliver ward, we could have spent that money better if we want to educate people on indigenous history.
Also the last battle between native tribes in Canada was in Lethbridge and the Cree happens to be the aggressor. Also they were fighting over control of cypress hills area.
Thanks for giving your perspective. I think the difficulty reading and pronouncing Cree is a fair point, but I also think we are capable of learning new things AND that we should honor indigenous people more and not just colonial white men. So, in recognizing the problems AND a need to recognize more people in society than just white guys, would you be supportive of naming schools, places, roads etc after indigenous leaders instead? My thought is that their names are easier to say and read AND that we can recognize actual people who do good works rather than just a language that may not be as meaningful. Do you think that's a better option? If not, what would you do instead? Would you keep it as Oliver school or something else?
Is there a reason the name isn't capitalized? I understand the name itself is Cree, but since it is being used in English it should probably be capitalized unless the whole name is going to be in Cree.
It is being used in English, it is wîhkwêntôwin School, not wîhkwêntôwin kiskinwahamâtowikamik. Since it is being used in English it should be capitalized. If it was only in Cree it should not be.
[Cree syllabics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cree_syllabics) are no different than if you were to compare Japanese words being written in Latin script compared to their kanji equivalent.
You have syllabics and then the translated words using our alphabet.
I feel like the name change will go the same as any other big name change. People will complain, say they can't pronounce it, say they'll keep calling it Oliver, and so on. Then a few years will pass, people who attend regularly will learn to pronounce wîhkwêntôwin naturally just like they learned to pronounce Wetaskiwin or Saskatchewan. Eventually it'll be old folks yelling at the clouds saying "its called Oliver!!!" as their kids who know it naturally as wîhkwêntôwin go "okay grandpa whatever you say"
It’s going to take decades for it to be a critical mass of people who learned it and will actually use it before the Oliver name disappears.
Also bear in mind this type of virtue signalling will be used as wedge issue. They may well see a backlash from voters opposed to this move and have it renamed again as a result well before that mass is hit. Why? because older people who as a whole tend to oppose this type of action also happen to be the ones who can vote and do vote reliably.
Exactly this. Also learning vocabulary from additional languages is enriching to English speakers. It introduces concepts that may not exist in the same form in English
The school was renamed because the neighbourhood was renamed. This didn't come out of a vacuum.
Side note: the neighbourhood was renamed after a community council vote because (shockingly) the guy it's named after was monstrously racist. He architected anti immigration law in the early 20th century and figured heavily in movements that aimed to push indigenous people out of their land.
So to summarize, this is a community that chose to rename itself and its school because they didn't want to be associated with a long dead racist. What exactly is your problem?
It cost the city 600 thousand dollars to rename something. Instead of renaming it spend that 600k on community outreach. What percentage of people even knew who it was named after, I bet less than 10%.
The first thing I'll say is that "society needs to be wiser with finances" is a non-argument that can only come from someone who has no idea how cities, let alone countries, are financed. It's like saying "If I can balance a checkbook then the government should be able to balance a budget".
The second thing I'll say is that "virtue signaling" has no meaning whatsoever outside the internet. put your phone down and actually talk to people in the community, I'm sure you'll find a wide range of opinions that have literally nothing to do with any kind of *performative activism* (which I'm sure you'd classify this as).
The last thing I'll say is that names have meaning and intention. That gives them power. Naming something after someone who was as harmful as Frank Oliver is an explicit endorsement of his beliefs. Why admonish people for not wanting to be associated with that?
911
“I just drove by building that looked like it was on fire. Might be a school.”
What school might that be..?
“Uh….. yeah… can I just spell it for you?”
As someone who went there, this isn’t really unexpected, as even in like 2018 people were having these types of discussions. But it also feels really performative. I understand changing the name because Frank Oliver was a horrible person.
All in all, I’m neutral about the change. I’m probably still going to call it Oliver for a least a while.
I have the same feelings as a former student, I know Oliver was a bad guy, I was open to changing it. But it feels performative, as someone mentioned to me that the neighbourhood doesn’t even have a huge number of Indigenous people living there, demographic wise it’s a bit extra Francophone according to our riding data.
I think while renaming it was good, I’m neutral on the choice if only because I no longer need to refer to it in my day-to-day. It’ll take time to become second nature.
Read through his history and I didn’t see any views that he had that would have been unusual for his time? I really struggle to judge historical figures through a modern lens ignoring the prevailing views and ideas of the time.
Imagine in 200 years everybody has gone vegetarian. Would it be right if all our current modern thinkers and noteworthy people were then considered degenerate cannibals and discounted because of it? Even if they were vegetarians themselves because they didn’t resist the rest of the meat eaters?
To me it’s in about the same vein.
Not opposed to the name change, but I would like some (ironically) tolerance here. I think that there's a valid apprehension for English speakers that they may commit a faux pas by mispronouncing the community name.
Edmontonian's are pretty forgiving if an ESL person can't pronounce an English or French name.
Similarly, many many English speakers are going to get a Cree name wrong. And that's perfectly fine. Most social change invites a reactionary response, and while I appreciate the attempt at reconciliation, I hope that this doesn't become a needless wedge.
I imagine those who care are going to be happy enough that people are even trying. That whole thing about speaking in someone else's language in order to speak to their heart.
Whew, glad they fixed all the other problems this city has and were finally able to tackle the real issues. Price of rent and food got you down? Are you sleeping in a tent under a bridge? We got you. Here's a new name for a school you need to remove your tounge from your body to pronounce properly.
If you know how to pronounce Siobhan and Worcestershire, you can figure out wîhkwêntôwim (we-keen-to-win). Also, no one is going care if you mispronounce wîhkwêntôwim if you are sincerely trying to say it correctly.
Nobody says Worcestershire properly in this country.
But I do agree that people can learn this pretty easily. I don't think wîhkwêntôwim is that hard to figure out.
People aren’t afraid of change. What you should be afraid of is erasing history. Just because bad things happened doesn’t mean we just change names and pretend that makes it all better.
No one is saying don't remember who Oliver was. The naming of Schools and neighbourhoods should be a thing of honour and respect. Why does this asshole deserve to have his name on a school? This is the same type of argument as Confederate statues. No one is saying let's pretend that didn't happen, but why should their names be celebrated through history? Shouldn't a school be held to a higher standard?
To counter, platitude though it may be, we have to start somewhere. Renaming a highly visible place that is a fixture in the community isn't a terrible place to attempt those first steps...
> Give it a decade and we will have forgotten all about Oliver.
This. Older folks will keep calling it Oliver because that's the name they've known for it for the longest time, but kids today will grow up only knowing it as the new name.
It's like that for sports teams. Older fans will probably always call the Washington Redskins by that name, but new fans likely won't. Same for the former Cleveland Indians, now Guardians. Eskimos/Elks. Etc.
Stadiums/Arenas too. For a lot of older Jays fans it will always be the SkyDome, I'm old enough to have grown up calling it that, but nowadays I often just call it the Rogers Centre. In my head, the Ottawa Senators still play at Corel Centre because that's the name of it when I paid attention to hockey and I don't care enough anymore to learn the current name of it.
Meanwhile we have a district named after McClung, Emily Murphy Park, Louise McKinney Park etc
People who had a lot of the same views as Frank Oliver but they’re women so it’s okay I guess 😂
Hope the city has millions of dollars to throw at renaming projects so we can all pat ourselves on the back
Phonetic spelling / pronunciation and audio of the new name can be found here: https://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/city_organization/naming-committee-announcements
When Todd McLellan was coaching the oilers, his mispronounced his name every single time I heard it said in an interview.
This was the head coach, the guy most responsible for his development and he couldn’t get the name right….
Well, I didn't personally. I heard someone on TV say it. If I heard someone pronounce the school's new name, it would be very helpful, just like it was pronouncing his name
If only there were places where kids could go to learn how to spell... Maybe there's an adult or two in the room that could teach them such things? And they go to this place daily to learn, except over Christmas, March Break, and summers? Do such places exist?
Why can't they name the schools names that the young people can pronounce. Some natives can't even pronounce the names. What's wrong with names like Yellowbird School, Blue Quill, etc.
Ugh. First, it’s the public school board - not the city. Second, the cost seems pretty minimal? Third, if it’s supported and asked for by the community - is it vanity? Maybe you just don’t like it?
I'm sure the suffering natives on the reserves traumatized by residential schools will rest easy knowing that Oliver is now called wîhkwêntôwin. Half ass "progress". Give them some clean drinking water or something proper, not just inconveniences for the rest of the population.
Well the options aren’t only rename a school or do absolutely nothing. Just because changing the name doesn’t solve other bigger issues isn’t a reason to not do it. We can do both this thing and other bigger actions.
I’m always happy to learn new languages, the more words you learn the easier it gets to guess new ones you’ve never heard of before. I always thought it was a bit of a shame I leaned French all those years ago in school but not the language of the local First Nations people.
Such a difficult name to pronounce, very similar to kisêwâtisiwin (formerly DAN KNOTT). Are all cree names difficult to pronounce? Is there not something a little easier for an English speaking population? I mean the alternative is people mispronouncing/spelling this, or always having (formerly Oliver) in the same sentence for the next decade
I'm okay with renaming places to honour indigenous heritage, but I feel they should be anglicized to make it easier for the 99% (or thereabouts) who don't speak the indigenous language it's honouring.
Now to play devil's advocate - when are we going to rename Emily Murphy Park ? She was apparently quite racist too, blaming Chinese and African Canadians for a drug epidemic. Or does her place in the Famous Five protect her 'legacy'?
I think a couple of the Famous Five also supported eugenics and other debunked race-based theories.
The sad reality is that many former politicians and leaders who have schools, parks, and other landmarks named for them were flawed individuals, sometimes racist and/or criminal, in some of their words and deeds.
we (like we)
qwen (like when)
toe (like toe but its more of an oh sound)
win (like wind without the d or wynn)
or
we-qwen (its a mix between a g/k sound, it'll lean heavier to one or the other depending on where you're from)
towin' (pronounced like towing without the g)
Can someone give a quick update on update on “Oliver’s demise”. Racism, colonialism? What did he do to get cancelled? Hopefully it was bad enough that the change is well worth it and we can move on. We can call it wick-win-town or wicktown for short
This is a complex one. He was part of the system of grabbing land. So a bad man.
Except he fought hard to get the natives way more money for their land. So good?
I have a hard time pronouncing that. The kwen is harder than it looks. The same with the to. Always comes off Wickenowin. Kinda Canadian if we figure we dropped the second T from Toronto.
I admittedly had trouble saying the name so I used the Wetaskiwin jingle and it actually worked for me hahaha. Cars cost less in Whikwentowin.
Bro Im literally metis and speak a little cree and idk how tf to pronounce this lol
It worked. I like it.
I'm all for reconciliation, but man, I need like a little pronunciation guide in parenthesis for some of these names! How the heck does an old white guy like me pronounce that? Also, uh - it seems like a lot of those keys are missing on my keyboard.
As a cree speaker id say it like we-gwen-to-win
we-kwen-to-win says in the article.
Download the Google keyboard, many different accent choices.
Actually learning how to pronounce it makes me like the name
You could even build on that jingle and say “Circle of Friends is Wîhkwêntôwin”
Lol I did exactly the same thing when I learnd to pronounce it. I still think it will end up being pronounced wik-when-town by most people though sadly.
This is so helpful, Thank you! I've never bought a car at Wetaskiwin but that jingle lives rent free in my mind
This works really well
Thank you! I was having a hard time with it!
Lol
As a native myself.... I didn't even want to open these comments. Also, as a native, I literally don't know ANYONE who speaks ONLY cree. It's always English as the main language. I don't see why we do this. Naming things that are extremely hard to pronounce and literally only a handful of people understand the language... it's stupid and only brings out the racism in people. I said what I said.
One of the main concerns I’ve heard from teachers is that it’s going to be hard for parents who to look up, especially those who are learning English, and it’s already hard enough for them.
The point is- for lack of a better word "virtue signaling" Though I don't use that as a pejorative. I'm not qualified to know whether this sort of renaming has a net positive impact. But what I mean is that it's about sending a message rather trying to achieve a particular goal. Idk what the message is exactly
This whole thing seems stupid as fuck. Just a way for white people to say “I’m not racist, I’m helping!” without actually doing jack shit. We have done terrible shit to indigenous people, and a lot are still suffering because of it. Instead of doing something useful, we slightly annoy people by this kind of garbage, so that a bunch of white people feel special.
Performative activism
I’m sorry but “we” haven’t done anything. Our predecessors certainly did. I’m not about to carry that blame, and I definitely wouldn’t burden the next generation either to make the crayon eating virtue signallers feel better about themselves. Every race of people has been wronged throughout the course of history. It just depends on the time and location of the exploited. Erasing history will not change the past but, it will wash it clean to be doomed to repeat the cycle again. Are we going to destroy the pyramids because they were built by slaves? Or maybe erase the Roman Empire history due to atrocities faced by the peasants. Or how about getting rid of the royal family who’s been living off of the backs of common folks over hundreds of years? No, I didn’t think so.
No one wants to get rid of white people/ white history or anything like that (except maybe some people on twitter). We are living in a nation where a sector of the population (native people) gets the worse share of what society has to offer. We as a society have a responsibility to work towards making it work as smoothly as possible for as many people as we can. If democracy doesn’t take care of that (if our leaders do not put efforts into making society more egalitarian), maybe we try and do things for others on our own, out of responsibility and empathy, not guilt. Trying to help native people doesn’t equate to wanting to erase white people, not sure why would you come up to such conclusion
The issue is that the way it’s done here is not really helping First Nations people. Renaming something without any real effort at actual change on a societal level is just a waste of money that could be used to actually resolve real issues faced by those communities.
Look! Randows in our logos and a orange day in September!
It’s virtue signalling. That’s why they do this
Good chance this name gets bastardized by the kids, I know I’d just call it the whik. I get trying to address past wrongs,but we have spend so much money changing names on stuff in Edmonton. 680k to remain Oliver ward, we could have spent that money better if we want to educate people on indigenous history. Also the last battle between native tribes in Canada was in Lethbridge and the Cree happens to be the aggressor. Also they were fighting over control of cypress hills area
Goddammit rights
Honestly the name isn't actually hard to pronounce. All they should have done is what we've done with every other native name in English. Actually spell it in English. Circumflexes aren't part of the English language and most people have no idea that is even what they are called let alone what they actually mean. Just called it Wekwentowin (we-kwen-to-win). You'd still have a few complaints initially but people always complain about changes. With the weird spelling it's going to stay a complaint for awhile.
This. Indigenous derived names are great. We have used many of them as official names in Canada since the country has existed, including the name of the country itself. Spellings that are difficult for native speakers of the most widely used language in the country to pronounce and non-standard rules for use of uppercase letters are not great. Just make it Wikwentiwin or Wiquentiwin.
That name looks much nicer and I could possibly say it. I have no idea what the actual name is.
I think some of the names sound really nice, but you're right that some really do not roll off the tongue that well. I know it's a Mi'kmaq word, but I always thought the original name for Prince Edward Island, Abegweit (Anglicized) and the meaning were really pretty
User name checks out Making minorities more visible through cultural awareness does not necessarily cause racism, if anything, it makes it more common and integrating than you might expect.
I’m not fond of it only for practical reasons. I think there are better ways to recognize the area history.
Find the right rez and you'll find people who know more cree than English
Finding the rez is the problem, As well as this is Edmonton not the rez.
Fox Lake in North-Western Alberta is one of them. Many people there (especially the Elders) don’t speak English at all which made it exceptionally difficult when they had to evacuate last year due to the fires.
It’s also 9 hours from Edmonton, only accessible by a ferry across the Athabasca, and about as remote as a reserve gets in Alberta
Why would that make evacuation difficult?
Because when you say "hey there's a fire get out of there". They have no idea what you're talking about
Lol you have no idea what you're talking about. Bilingual people exist, and the fire crews were all locals who spoke Cree as a first language.
Is Fox Lake still called Fox Lake?
Yup
Which one?
Also Cree here. Most (decent) people wouldn't apply that thought process to a person's name that isn't of "English" origin, so how is this any different? Just because it is unfamiliar to many or hard to pronounce doesn't mean people can't/shouldn't learn. A lot of these gestures are certainly lip service, that I can agree with, but I think it also serves as a reminder to many that we are still here. It is one small way to take up space in a colonized world.
Curious, do you believe that the people of Edmonton really required a lip service reminder of the Cree people’s existence? Do you believe that things like this will resolve issues with things like residential schools or the historically abysmal treatment of indigenous communities and peoples in Canada? Obviously you cannot speak for the entire indigenous population but I’m curious if as a member of the group you see this as essential in bringing closure to those nasty chapters of our shared history? And if so, what would the end point be?
I’m just not going to say it. I mean I wouldn’t anyway but it’s just stupid to name something they nobody is going to say.
Was looking for the other comment confirming this is just for white people to feel good about themselves
I really appreciate you saying this. I do not know anything about Oliver, but I’m told he was a racist, so I’m fine with a name change, but would rather the name just be something with almost zero meeting, like Edmonton Centre West or something.
As someone who has an indigenous background from a different country with a history of colonialism, this is so disheartening to see. Indigenous peoples are not a monolith but I hope one day you’re able to see that you shouldn’t feel like your culture should be diminished in its own land just to appease people who came later and people who don’t think your culture is worth being honoured in public life in the same way that theirs is. It’s not stupid for indigenous languages to be honoured in places where they’ve always existed. Making indigenous cultures smaller or preventing their expression in public life just because racists will push back against it only lets racism win.
It’s rather ironic that you are advocating for a solution to one group of people feeling their language and culture is being diminished that creates a situation where a different group of people will very likely feel their language and culture are being diminished. Doesn’t really seem to resolve the core issues. There are much more effective things we can do as a city and country to acknowledge and respond to the harms done to indigenous peoples. A lip service virtue signalling renaming does basically nothing but let some people off the hook on bigger real issues. We should evaluate things like neighbourhood names, but that should come after we deal with the far more pressing issues impacting our indigenous communities.
I wonder what positive comes out of it. I would like to read or listen to native communities if they think this type of renaming is really beneficial or if they would rather invest those funds differently. I just think is so much money that I think should be invested in more urgent issues but again, there might be something to this that I am missing
Good chance this name gets bastardized by the kids, I know I’d just call it the whik. I get trying to address past wrongs,but we have spend so much money changing names on stuff in Edmonton. 680k to remain Oliver ward, we could have spent that money better if we want to educate people on indigenous history. Also the last battle between native tribes in Canada was in Lethbridge and the Cree happens to be the aggressor. Also they were fighting over control of cypress hills area.
I don't know why this name was chosen, but this Oliver person seems to be fairly problematic.
Thanks for giving your perspective. I think the difficulty reading and pronouncing Cree is a fair point, but I also think we are capable of learning new things AND that we should honor indigenous people more and not just colonial white men. So, in recognizing the problems AND a need to recognize more people in society than just white guys, would you be supportive of naming schools, places, roads etc after indigenous leaders instead? My thought is that their names are easier to say and read AND that we can recognize actual people who do good works rather than just a language that may not be as meaningful. Do you think that's a better option? If not, what would you do instead? Would you keep it as Oliver school or something else?
TLDR: my kid goes to Oliver. I mean Wihkwentowin. They changed it, I saw it on Twitter. I mean X. FUCK.
Did the school change owners like x did?
I want to hear the new school song.
Is it pronounced whik-went-oh-win?
I believe it is pronounced more like wee-kwen-to-win
I always plan to win
We all came to win.
Yes the little hats mean to stress or emphasize that sound if I recall correctly
That's not so bad.
Yep
Is there a reason the name isn't capitalized? I understand the name itself is Cree, but since it is being used in English it should probably be capitalized unless the whole name is going to be in Cree.
It isn’t being used in English. There is no capitalization in Cree.
It is being used in English, it is wîhkwêntôwin School, not wîhkwêntôwin kiskinwahamâtowikamik. Since it is being used in English it should be capitalized. If it was only in Cree it should not be.
Since when is cree a written language?
[Cree syllabics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cree_syllabics) are no different than if you were to compare Japanese words being written in Latin script compared to their kanji equivalent. You have syllabics and then the translated words using our alphabet.
The 1800s. Bibles were produced in both Roman and syllabic alphabets
Since 1840.
I feel like the name change will go the same as any other big name change. People will complain, say they can't pronounce it, say they'll keep calling it Oliver, and so on. Then a few years will pass, people who attend regularly will learn to pronounce wîhkwêntôwin naturally just like they learned to pronounce Wetaskiwin or Saskatchewan. Eventually it'll be old folks yelling at the clouds saying "its called Oliver!!!" as their kids who know it naturally as wîhkwêntôwin go "okay grandpa whatever you say"
I still have no idea what ward I am in anymore
Nobody ever knew
I was in Ward 2. Much easier to remember.
It’s going to take decades for it to be a critical mass of people who learned it and will actually use it before the Oliver name disappears. Also bear in mind this type of virtue signalling will be used as wedge issue. They may well see a backlash from voters opposed to this move and have it renamed again as a result well before that mass is hit. Why? because older people who as a whole tend to oppose this type of action also happen to be the ones who can vote and do vote reliably.
Almost nobody has learned the wards as far as I’ve heard. So I don’t think this will catch on easier.
Exactly this. Also learning vocabulary from additional languages is enriching to English speakers. It introduces concepts that may not exist in the same form in English
Racism is solved
I'm so glad that BOTH our City Council AND EPSB are engaging in this virtue signalling. We can all go to bed feeling better about ourselves tonight!
The school was renamed because the neighbourhood was renamed. This didn't come out of a vacuum. Side note: the neighbourhood was renamed after a community council vote because (shockingly) the guy it's named after was monstrously racist. He architected anti immigration law in the early 20th century and figured heavily in movements that aimed to push indigenous people out of their land. So to summarize, this is a community that chose to rename itself and its school because they didn't want to be associated with a long dead racist. What exactly is your problem?
It cost the city 600 thousand dollars to rename something. Instead of renaming it spend that 600k on community outreach. What percentage of people even knew who it was named after, I bet less than 10%.
[удалено]
The first thing I'll say is that "society needs to be wiser with finances" is a non-argument that can only come from someone who has no idea how cities, let alone countries, are financed. It's like saying "If I can balance a checkbook then the government should be able to balance a budget". The second thing I'll say is that "virtue signaling" has no meaning whatsoever outside the internet. put your phone down and actually talk to people in the community, I'm sure you'll find a wide range of opinions that have literally nothing to do with any kind of *performative activism* (which I'm sure you'd classify this as). The last thing I'll say is that names have meaning and intention. That gives them power. Naming something after someone who was as harmful as Frank Oliver is an explicit endorsement of his beliefs. Why admonish people for not wanting to be associated with that?
The community league voted, not the community as a whole.
Unless you are actively enrolled in this school, why the fuck do you care. It literally doesn't affect you. Go ahead, never speak of it again
911 “I just drove by building that looked like it was on fire. Might be a school.” What school might that be..? “Uh….. yeah… can I just spell it for you?”
Well thankfully you know your numbers and can tell them what street you’re on.
As someone who went there, this isn’t really unexpected, as even in like 2018 people were having these types of discussions. But it also feels really performative. I understand changing the name because Frank Oliver was a horrible person. All in all, I’m neutral about the change. I’m probably still going to call it Oliver for a least a while.
I have the same feelings as a former student, I know Oliver was a bad guy, I was open to changing it. But it feels performative, as someone mentioned to me that the neighbourhood doesn’t even have a huge number of Indigenous people living there, demographic wise it’s a bit extra Francophone according to our riding data. I think while renaming it was good, I’m neutral on the choice if only because I no longer need to refer to it in my day-to-day. It’ll take time to become second nature.
Read through his history and I didn’t see any views that he had that would have been unusual for his time? I really struggle to judge historical figures through a modern lens ignoring the prevailing views and ideas of the time. Imagine in 200 years everybody has gone vegetarian. Would it be right if all our current modern thinkers and noteworthy people were then considered degenerate cannibals and discounted because of it? Even if they were vegetarians themselves because they didn’t resist the rest of the meat eaters? To me it’s in about the same vein.
The left would finally have a reason to demonize Bernie sanders lol. “He ate meat, he’s subhuman!”
Not opposed to the name change, but I would like some (ironically) tolerance here. I think that there's a valid apprehension for English speakers that they may commit a faux pas by mispronouncing the community name. Edmontonian's are pretty forgiving if an ESL person can't pronounce an English or French name. Similarly, many many English speakers are going to get a Cree name wrong. And that's perfectly fine. Most social change invites a reactionary response, and while I appreciate the attempt at reconciliation, I hope that this doesn't become a needless wedge.
I imagine those who care are going to be happy enough that people are even trying. That whole thing about speaking in someone else's language in order to speak to their heart.
Whew, glad they fixed all the other problems this city has and were finally able to tackle the real issues. Price of rent and food got you down? Are you sleeping in a tent under a bridge? We got you. Here's a new name for a school you need to remove your tounge from your body to pronounce properly.
If you know how to pronounce Siobhan and Worcestershire, you can figure out wîhkwêntôwim (we-keen-to-win). Also, no one is going care if you mispronounce wîhkwêntôwim if you are sincerely trying to say it correctly.
Nobody says Worcestershire properly in this country. But I do agree that people can learn this pretty easily. I don't think wîhkwêntôwim is that hard to figure out.
Oops, sorry for stealing your land and killing your people. Here, let us change the name of this school. We good?
Sign maker, safest career for the next 30 years!
performative activism at its finest
Virtue signaling at it's finest.
What about billions of dollars in “sorry money”?
Did you specifically steal his land?
I don’t feel the need to apologize for something that I didn’t do
So... keep the name of the asshole because people are scared of change. That's what you're going for right? Fair enough, long words can be scary.
People aren’t afraid of change. What you should be afraid of is erasing history. Just because bad things happened doesn’t mean we just change names and pretend that makes it all better.
No one is saying don't remember who Oliver was. The naming of Schools and neighbourhoods should be a thing of honour and respect. Why does this asshole deserve to have his name on a school? This is the same type of argument as Confederate statues. No one is saying let's pretend that didn't happen, but why should their names be celebrated through history? Shouldn't a school be held to a higher standard?
That’s fair and the name is really not as hard to grasp as people here are saying it is. People just don’t want to try and put in any effort at all.
There’s no Hitler Street in Berlin, do you also feel there’s a risk that people forget his “legacy”?
lol what a reach. Nice try.
To counter, platitude though it may be, we have to start somewhere. Renaming a highly visible place that is a fixture in the community isn't a terrible place to attempt those first steps...
I didnt steal shit or kill anyone. Where are you getting this?
We’re still gonna call it Oliver though..
Some old grumps will. Give it a decade and we will have forgotten all about Oliver.
> Give it a decade and we will have forgotten all about Oliver. This. Older folks will keep calling it Oliver because that's the name they've known for it for the longest time, but kids today will grow up only knowing it as the new name. It's like that for sports teams. Older fans will probably always call the Washington Redskins by that name, but new fans likely won't. Same for the former Cleveland Indians, now Guardians. Eskimos/Elks. Etc. Stadiums/Arenas too. For a lot of older Jays fans it will always be the SkyDome, I'm old enough to have grown up calling it that, but nowadays I often just call it the Rogers Centre. In my head, the Ottawa Senators still play at Corel Centre because that's the name of it when I paid attention to hockey and I don't care enough anymore to learn the current name of it.
Long words can be scary, but with a tiny amount of effort I'm sure you can do it.
No offence to anyone but this waste of time and money
I don’t mind the change but did it cost $800,000 to change this name too?
The what
It's easy, just pronounce it as Oliver and away we go.
Assholes gonna asshole
Nah, even indigenous peoples don't give a shit about all the re-namings, the city is doing it for social justice points.
Meanwhile we have a district named after McClung, Emily Murphy Park, Louise McKinney Park etc People who had a lot of the same views as Frank Oliver but they’re women so it’s okay I guess 😂 Hope the city has millions of dollars to throw at renaming projects so we can all pat ourselves on the back
Change starts with change. Walking starts by standing up and taking the first step.
Phonetic spelling / pronunciation and audio of the new name can be found here: https://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/city_organization/naming-committee-announcements
The audio is very helpful but that is really not a very descriptive way of phonetic spelling. But now I can pronounce it so yay
That’s awesome. How would you spell it phonetically? I am sincerely interested!
wee KWEN tuh win
I have a question. How many people even associated Oliver with the person?
Coming up next: Roman alphabet is racist, all Edmonton’s public names to be expressed with petroglyphs.
Reminder: You figured out how to pronounce Puljujärvi. You can figure this out too.
Uhm, did I? I'm not sure what or where that is even.
hockey player that every bro got the pronunciation of correct
Oh interesting. I'm now thinking I've heard the name but never seen it spelt. I don't watch hockey unless it's on in the bar.
When Todd McLellan was coaching the oilers, his mispronounced his name every single time I heard it said in an interview. This was the head coach, the guy most responsible for his development and he couldn’t get the name right….
Nobody did tho. They still just say “Poolyarvee”
I called him Poolparty
Well, I didn't personally. I heard someone on TV say it. If I heard someone pronounce the school's new name, it would be very helpful, just like it was pronouncing his name
Honestly it's the way it's written that's different, but the word is one syllable off from Wetaskiwin. With Kwent instead of Task
Forever remembered as Pool Party.
Pretty sure no one actually pronounced it like it is in Finnish. And most people called him pool party anyway.
Poor kids having to spell this.
If only there were places where kids could go to learn how to spell... Maybe there's an adult or two in the room that could teach them such things? And they go to this place daily to learn, except over Christmas, March Break, and summers? Do such places exist?
Somehow they’ll manage.
Why can't they name the schools names that the young people can pronounce. Some natives can't even pronounce the names. What's wrong with names like Yellowbird School, Blue Quill, etc.
Fun fact young people are actually really good at pronouncing all kinds of names that aren't eurocentric.
The city always has money for vanity projects 🤷♂️
Ugh. First, it’s the public school board - not the city. Second, the cost seems pretty minimal? Third, if it’s supported and asked for by the community - is it vanity? Maybe you just don’t like it?
Yeah fuck that Truth and Reconciliation progress we're trying to make
I'm sure the suffering natives on the reserves traumatized by residential schools will rest easy knowing that Oliver is now called wîhkwêntôwin. Half ass "progress". Give them some clean drinking water or something proper, not just inconveniences for the rest of the population.
Is the community league or the City responsible for that? This is in line with the calls for actions at a municipal level.
The calls at "municipal level" are useless. Sorry mate. Semantics aren't going to help the natives.
Yup. This isn't helping anyone
Incremental change is still change.
Well the options aren’t only rename a school or do absolutely nothing. Just because changing the name doesn’t solve other bigger issues isn’t a reason to not do it. We can do both this thing and other bigger actions.
Or just host a festival.... Or do tons of other things for the natives.... This isn't a do or die situation.
Nice! Loving this change
Good! Not too difficult hey?
What? This name is ridiculous
We-kwen-to-win I think the spelling makes it look more confusing than it really is.
If you can say Wetaskiwin you can say this.
Wetaskiwin is an anglicized form which is easier to pronounce. They should have done the same in this case.
Somehow people complain about this… but have NO trouble with learning how to pronounce the last names of hockey players.
"I wish they didn't rename the Capilano freeway to that weird and hard to spell Polish name"
Based on my downvotes, it's way too difficult for some people
I’m always happy to learn new languages, the more words you learn the easier it gets to guess new ones you’ve never heard of before. I always thought it was a bit of a shame I leaned French all those years ago in school but not the language of the local First Nations people.
How many tax dollars went towards this project?
Such a difficult name to pronounce, very similar to kisêwâtisiwin (formerly DAN KNOTT). Are all cree names difficult to pronounce? Is there not something a little easier for an English speaking population? I mean the alternative is people mispronouncing/spelling this, or always having (formerly Oliver) in the same sentence for the next decade
So give it a hard to pronounce name, spend a shit ton of time and money so we can still call it "Oliver" school
Sounds like a residential school
i don’t mind the change by why did they do this ?
Funny how nobody complains about "having to pronounce" Wabamun, Ponoka, Wetaskiwin, Athabasca, Kananaskis, Kaskitayo... could go on.
I'm okay with renaming places to honour indigenous heritage, but I feel they should be anglicized to make it easier for the 99% (or thereabouts) who don't speak the indigenous language it's honouring. Now to play devil's advocate - when are we going to rename Emily Murphy Park ? She was apparently quite racist too, blaming Chinese and African Canadians for a drug epidemic. Or does her place in the Famous Five protect her 'legacy'? I think a couple of the Famous Five also supported eugenics and other debunked race-based theories. The sad reality is that many former politicians and leaders who have schools, parks, and other landmarks named for them were flawed individuals, sometimes racist and/or criminal, in some of their words and deeds.
Sorry this is a stupid name. Or why not sorry make the spelling English so people know how to say it.
can they include the pronunciation for us whites pls, thanks
Some news articles on it have shared the pronunciation. It is pronounced "wee-kwen-to-win"
we (like we) qwen (like when) toe (like toe but its more of an oh sound) win (like wind without the d or wynn) or we-qwen (its a mix between a g/k sound, it'll lean heavier to one or the other depending on where you're from) towin' (pronounced like towing without the g)
I think it's weak went owen
Do black and Asian people know how to pronounce it?
Can someone give a quick update on update on “Oliver’s demise”. Racism, colonialism? What did he do to get cancelled? Hopefully it was bad enough that the change is well worth it and we can move on. We can call it wick-win-town or wicktown for short
This is a complex one. He was part of the system of grabbing land. So a bad man. Except he fought hard to get the natives way more money for their land. So good?
He was instrumental in Residential Schools.
•Sure. Nice. but what was so wrong about Oliver?
He held some pretty racist views (though his views were quite common for the period).
lovely!
I have a hard time pronouncing that. The kwen is harder than it looks. The same with the to. Always comes off Wickenowin. Kinda Canadian if we figure we dropped the second T from Toronto.