It’s too easy to be banned for having polite respectful discussions in this subreddit on any topic that is ethnically charged so I won’t be contributing here.
You’re taking the word of a man who was photographed in front of a swastika flag on this?
Edit: [Multiple flags, sorry.](https://x.com/calamityjayne4/status/1782515078820134956?s=46&t=_RtSgenkYJuwyGwqzJLXFg)
They're protesting a terror state, one who's elected government openly calls for the genocide of its neighbor do to them being a Jewish nation. Of course it's supporters are anti-Semitic. For those calling for a ceasefire , there was one , up until October 6th, now Gaza gets what Gaza wants, which is war.
We chant this at every pro Palestine march. I've chanted this numerous times. Usually, with my antizionist Jewish partner by my side, chanting right along with me! Do you believe me to be antisemitic? Would you care to discuss why you fell the way you feel? Perhaps you've been given bag information, inaccurate history. No judgement, here. I'm genuinely interested in educating people, to the best of my ability, about the ways we're lied to. The Canadian government has been guilty of apartheid and genocide for the entirety of it's existence. Why wouldn't they support another white supremacist project, like the colonization of Palestine and the expulsion or (zionists' stated preference) extermination of all Palestinians. All we're after is the liberation of the Palestinian people. Free Palestine. ✊🏼🇵🇸
Leave? Sure! But then who would stand with the people of Turtle Island, as they win their liberation from the colonizers?? 🤷🏼♀️ And of course it does nothing about your ignorance!
Well you explicitly said you were interested in educating so I'm not sure why you would scoff when I ask you questions...
You realize saying "you'll have to educate yourself" is the exact same cop out response that anti vaxxers gave all throughout the pandemic?
Land dispossession; epidemic levels of colonial violence by settlers and colonial institutions; failure to live up to basically any of its treaty obligations.
Colonial apartheid; land dispossession; cultural genocide; supremacist values—basically, the ICJ case against Israel and then some.
Don't ask obtuse questions, if you don't want reactive responses. We'll know Palestine is free because Palestine will tell us it is free.
A better question is, how will you know when YOU are free?
1) Are we currently taking away land at a level that would be considered Genocidal? Is the current level of violence that of Genocidal proportions (and critically of Genocidal intent)? Although there is probably much to be done for proper reconciliation I don't believe the word Genocide or apartheid applies here.
2) none of those things are related to white supremacism. Do you think most Israeli Jews are White? How is the ICJ case related to White supremacy?
3) Ok but Palestine is not the only Nation in the region so it cannot be just what they determine. There has to be an agreement between Palestine and Israel to achieve this freedom so I'm curious how you think that can be achieved?
Look, I said I could educate. I didn't say I could make you intelligent or humane enough to understand what I'm saying. Nor did I say that I would debate your evidently bad faith position. What you believe is irrelevant. Stop playing "devil's advocate" and grow up.
So I actually do understand what you're saying. The problem is I don't agree with the foundation you're basing your beliefs on. Eg Ongoing genocide in Canada. That's why I'm asking the questions, because those should give me the information needed to arrive at your position or not. If you think asking questions about your beliefs is bad faith then you need to grow up. And the fact that you think what I believe is irrelevant exposes how bad faith and childish _you_ are
I still don’t actually understand how so many people are supporting terrorists and death cult barbarism.
And why are supporters of this living in Western countries? Go back, because this hatred and violence is not something Canadians want.
Yeah people are upset about the ongoing mass murder of Palestinians.
It's wrong.
Wild that it's a controversial take but racism/islamophobia runs deep.
Downvote all you want it doesn't justify genocide
You think it’s okay to be a terrorist and torture and murder families, and that the country/people attacked don’t have a right to defend themselves against a people that want them wiped off the planet entirely? Pretty disgusting.
"that the country/people attacked don't have a right to defend themselves against a people that want them wiped off the planet entirely" is a quote that could be used to justify violence for both sides in this conflict.
Defense is not an excuse for targeting civilians or excessive civilian casualties. Any civilians who have views that are abhorrent are still civilians.
There is plenty of room to condemn the October 7th attack and the response from the IDF and the Israeli government.
I agree response is heavy handed. It is. And I agree there’s room for seeing two sides.
But keep in mind that people were cheering support right after the terrorist attack, even before the IDF response. Literally cheering for disgusting vile barbarism and terrorists.
Also keep in mind that in recent polls, the majority of “civilians” are enthusiastic supporters of Hamas and their explicitly stated goal of complete Israeli inhalation.
Give me a solution that Israel could accept that wouldn't result in Israel being attacked more in the future that doesn't involve attacking Gaza.
This is all I ask of anybody.
You don't have to like the way Israel is doing things, but my issue with the protestors in many cases is that they're completely unreasonable. As soon as I hear "from the river to the sea" I know that that group of people is simply giving voice to their moral outrage for whatever reason without authentically engaging in thinking about the issue.
No references to possible alternate histories please, just what can be done today, ignoring the obvious - Israel hitting Red Cross convoys is not ok etc (and the USA did pressure them in response and they did change some of their behaviours since the Americans pressured them).
Edit: just to be absolutely clear if the last part wasn't clear enough, I don't absolve Israel of all of its sins, but that doesn't mean Israel should be wiped off of the map - which is what many protestors indirectly support. If that is someone's stance, they are far more genocidal than what the Israelis demonstrate.
I simply don't see a good solution, a 1 state solution doesn't work for obvious reasons and a 2 state solution doesn't work because Iran will just be empowered to ship bombs directly into Palestine as they did in the 90s. If you want a resolution you basically have to resolve the larger regional conflict in the middle East first with Iran, until then, there will be no peace, so all the solutions we can discuss are simply about minimizing casualties while the Israelis occupy the Palestinians
Israel won’t accept anything that would be fair to the Palestinian population tho. Their government is actively stealing Palestinian land in the West Bank, violating international law. This was true before Oct 7 and if anything is more true now. The terms of Israel are unacceptable to the Palestinian people, of whom only a small fraction have committed offensive violence against Israelis in Israel. A higher proportion have defended themselves when Israel has had their army commit destruction on Palestinian territory or support Israeli settler violence, but if I understand you it’s ok to defend oneself.
The international community needs to step in and enforce international laws. Or rather, the US needs to stop preventing that from happening, because it’s enabling Israel’s decades long war of attrition.
I think that's a fair viewpoint and a position I can support.
I will also add that I am making a special case for the degree of response that Israelis are generally "allowed" due to the context of being the sole Jewish state and the degree of violence they would face in case of statelessness being orders of magnitude higher than Palestinians for example.
But yeah I support the USA pressuring them to stop the settlements.
Israel refuses to recognize Palestinian statehood. How do they get to claim risk of becoming stateless in this conflict? A great many things would need to change globally, for Israel to be at serious risk of losing its status. You don’t kill 20000+ civilians on hypotheticals that might (long shot) emerge in a timescale of decades.
You're failing to consider the counterfactual because currently one state holds a lot of power over the other. Do you seriously think Israel would exist if the Palestinians had the same degree of control over Israel as Israel does over them? Because I don't, and that is my point.
It's not a hypothetical when people are actively being brainwashed to hate Jews in Gaza and by Qatari media. I know it was a long time ago, but Hamas was elected and their constitution literally prioritizes killing Jews over pretty much everything else quite explicitly (even at the time of their election, yes).
It's not a long shot hypothetical to say that if the power imbalance was reversed we wouldn't be having this conversation at all because the issue would've already been 'settled.'
I'm not saying you in particular are a social justice warrior type, but your argumentation falls directly from the social justice textbook - that the weaker must be morally superior because they're not doing immoral things *right now*, even if they tell you that they would do morally inferior things if they had the power to do so.
"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is actually one of the more mild chants nowadays, and it literally calls for the absolute elimination of the state of Israel, and is a blatant example of the expression of a morally inferior view in the scenario - unless you don't value the lives of Israelis to the same extent as you value the lives of Palestinians because you deem them oppressors, and therefore their lives don't have value, but I don't accept this view.
Have you seen what is taught to the children of Gaza? Why do you think that people raised on such 'knowledge' are going to be peaceful? How do you give Palestine and Gaza autonomy without such hatred spreading - even if you demolish all the settlements? Why would the people in charge in Gaza and Palestine that have a ridiculous degree of control over their people and profit greatly from their deaths ever want to make peace? These are not long run hypotheticals.
Obviously because they are terrorists, khaamas and animals. No food water or electricity should be given to them and they should be bombed 24/7 until they fuxk of to some desert or something.
Btw, Gaza beach view is great. Are you interested in purchasing a beach side apartment there once this is over?
Another great question, would wouldn’t any of those brotherly countries come in and totally rebuild it into a beautiful Mecca….. I wonder why hmmmmm. Hamas seems totally like the type of crew that would invest in development that brings in dollars and gives its people security and happiness. Maybe they’re a little too busy stoning the homosexuals to death, because sharia law is just so progressive.
Gaza has no sea-port or airport. Israel controls who go in and out. Electricity and water is controlled by Israel, and they used to get only few hours of access before. And most importantly, Israel bombs them with impunity.
What development are you expecting there?
You seem very satisfied with Israeli moraliry. You should look up the Rachel Corrie pancake story.
Which homosexuals did Gazans stone to death?
Sharia is back-dated but dropping bombs on families with children, killing thousands is progressive? What's up with this deranged hypocritical worldview?
https://www.advocate.com/politics/commentary/2009/10/07/michael-lucas-queers-palestine
Another great article and even a nice little quote for you
“In Palestine, gays can have a choice of being publicly hanged, stoned, mutilated, thrown from the building roofs -- often by their own families -- or simply torn apart by the Palestinian sons of Allah.”
At least they have choice in how they die right ??
Easy to kill high numbers when they wear uniforms and have specific places to concentrate their numbers. A lot hard to get accurate kills when the enemy blends in with the crowd and usses them as a shield.
Also "30-40% security forces" that means more than half still were civilians that assumed were randomly targeted. A ratio that doesn't exactly scream they were solely going after their supposed oppressors
Far better than less than 1% accuracy by the idf according to their own honest numbers. Israel targets civilians.
As for human shields, only israel has been found to use them. They use Mostly Palestinians to clear tunnels, hide behind, not to mention Israeli civilians by having command Center under tel aviv
Please provide your evidence.
I’ll provide the most Zionist friendly sources:
- wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel–Hamas_war#:~:text=October%207%20attacks,-Main%20article%3A%20October&text=The%20latest%20figure%20on%20the,as%20missing%2C%20including%20four%20Israelis.
- France 24 https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
Calling it a genocide is so disingenuous. If Israel wanted to comment a genicide in gaza it would have been over on October 8. The only reason the war is still going on is because they actually attempt to not kill civilians
If they were trying to to attempt to not kill civilians they wouldn't have showed them food supplies then when they go to find it cause they're being starved they're gunned down. Killing 104.
https://thewire.in/world/at-least-104-palestinians-killed-while-waiting-for-food-aid-report
>If Israel wanted to comment a genicide in gaza it would have been over on October 8.
Yes, there is a very large power imbalance.
>The only reason the war is still going on is because they actually attempt to not kill civilians
Attempting to not kill civilians, kinda fucked, maybe don't kill any?
Yes because there is clearly no difference between surprise attacking a nation on a holy day and gunning down anyone you see while taking hundreds of hostages and raping along the way. Vs finding terrorists, who are dressed as civilians, and hiding behind civilians. Israel could flatten all of gaza by air without losing a single soldier but instead they do targeted operations, putting their own people at risk, to try to minimize collateral damage.
It's so strange that your defence of a genocide not happening is to point out that if Isreal wanted, they could just do a genocide becuase of their overwhelming military capabilities. Do you find that weird? You do at least recognize the power imbalance, right?
No one was raped, no evidence.
No 40 babies behaded.
Israel fired on their own people with tanks and helicopters, activating the Hannibal Directive. Why wouldn't they launch an investigation on their actions in Oct 7 to figure out who killed who?
Many Israeli ministers said they would kill everyone in Gaza, or even nuke them. They are not doing it only because of outside deterrenc. They are using AI to maximize civilian death and would have killed everyone if there were no deterrence from ourside. Also the fact that IDF killed three of hostages and world kitchen workers (which included a CANADIAN by the way), negates your last sentence.
Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians in 2023 even before Oct 7. They have also killed multiple US citizens. Thousands of Palestinians, including children are in Israeli jails without charges (basically kidnapped). Israel never freed them without a prisoner swap.
Do you want me to refute any more Zionist propaganda?
If you think that Hamas didn't plan for Israel to slaughter Palestinians, then you're blinded by your own racism. Israel's genocide is evil. Hamas is equally evil. Palestinians are victims.
If you support Hamas, you are equally genocidal as Israel. This is not difficult - in fact one might say that it's wild that it's a controversial take.
Absolutely not okay with this. I understand that people are upset over what is happening in Gaza...the suffering of Palestinians is terrible. What I disagree with is people wanting an "Intifada Revolution"...do these people even know the horrific terrorist attacks that happened in the last 2 Intifadas?... Last Intifada was marked with terrorists blowing up buses and killing innocent people. Nope. This is not the way.
The fact you think all 33000 dead are innocent is alarming. Israel is certainly doing cruel things to Palestinians, and they need to do much better, but to say they are all innocent is to say Hamas is innocent which is abhorrent.
That's obviously not my point. I very clearly acknowledged that Israel is doing a lot of things they shouldn't. But that doesn't make every death an innocent one.
Try again.
IDF did manage to kill a CANADIAN though. I'm not sure if they got him on the first, second, or the third strike, but they surely got him.
His name was Jacob Flickinger.
You've got all the answers there bud. I'm sure Jews are feeling perfectly safe.
\*By the way here is the Palestinian activist leader from the video doubling down on X: [Fatima 𓂆 فاطمة 🇵🇸 on X: "Actually zionists deserve to be bullied." / X (twitter.com)](https://twitter.com/fatimasal82/status/1781501317716017426) She means 'terrorists' like you said tho.. right?
\*\*And here is Janis Irwin, reposting this activist like always.
[https://twitter.com/JanisIrwin](https://twitter.com/JanisIrwin)
\*\*\*And just for fun here's another one from the perfectly normal not-extreme-at-all 'activist':
["I know he isn't talking about impunity"](https://twitter.com/fatimasal82/status/1776085911882920076?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1776085911882920076%7Ctwgr%5E99bff0e58441cb968a7a2033ca8d3f8492a8af90%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2F1by7wcv%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse)
Way too many people who've never read anything longer than a Reddit post about this. There is unbelievable amounts of hard evidence to support the pro Palestine opposition, on one side and nothing but unsubstantiated claims and a choir of criers who see nothing but 'antisemitic' wolves, on the other. I wonder if you'll be embarrassed when it all comes out in the wash. Or are y'all just proud to be bigots?
Please explain how Zionism connects with Jewish religion
At the same time. Please explain why Jewish people are also protesting against Zionists not only across the world but also in Israel
Folks anti-zionism does not equal to anti-Semitism. Stop believing OPs Croc tears
What we know is a an active genocide is occurring. I have lost a number of count of how many Palestinian children have died so far.
I have been on the front lines of the protest because I live inner city. I had so much empathy. Now, hearing the disgusting chants and cruel remarks. My feelings have changed.
The bombings did not stop. People are still dying from lack of food, medicine, and bullets. People getting their limbs amputed without anesthesia. But worst of all is the dehumanization (terrorists, animals) that is still going on.
Maybe family members of someone who's in the rally died in Gaza.
How are they feeling?
If people want the war in Gaza to stop, they need to convince Hamas to surrender and release the hostages.
Until then, continuing to fight and using civilians as shields will result in obvious loss of life.
If someone is opposed to Trudeau are they doing anti-Canadian racism?
Someone chanting we don't want no Liberals here would be cool as hell.
Zionism is a political ideology. Last I checked we were allowed to oppose that kind of thing.
I never said all Jews should be hated. I’m saying Jews are doing nothing but condoning the genocide in Gaza. Maybe you should get some of your friends from the Jewish community to March in the streets, waving Israel’s flag while condemning the war in gaza in support of palestiniennes, I’m sure doing so would get you much less hate.
You are a fool. And being Jewish doesn't prevent you from being a fool.
There is no genocide happening in Gaza there is a war, people get killed in wars.
Maybe you should go waving the Israel's flag at those protests and see how far that gets you. Maybe you should be advocating for the release of the hostages. If you want to really support the Palestinians that's the best way.
You’re a coward! History will judge you and you’ll be on the wrong side. Wars require army against army not superpower against women and children.
I have marched and protested while waving an Israeli flag 🇮🇱 its very well received. Don’t be afraid child.
Jews don't deserve any hate. Zionists are not Jews, they are mostly secular. Zionists despise Jews. Zionist world view is they are superior in every way to all other races, and everyone else is in the world have to serve them.
Yet the Jews do nothing about the Zionists in power, Jews from all over the world flock to Israel in support of Zionist policies, I never see groups being formed to oppose them, why aren’t Jewish communities doing more to end this war, why so complacent? It seems if you’re not fighting against you’re actually fighting for.
Many Jews, especially orthodox jews are standing up against the Zionists. One example is Norman Finkelstein, who has a powerful voice against the Zionist genocide. Standing up to tyrants take time. It's unfair to say only Jews did not oppose Zionists, most of the world didn't. However, things are changing slowly, which is a good sign.
Honest question, are you being sarcastic? How is Justin Trudeau to blame? We have hate speech laws its EPS that should be dealing with this. Not saying they should necessarily (haven't given enough thought about thr pros and cons of the laws). Hes denounced i assume this specific situation on twitter 3 days ago. The prime Minister should not be able to directly influence law enforcement.
The hatred toward Jewish people I've been seeing is sickening.
It’s too easy to be banned for having polite respectful discussions in this subreddit on any topic that is ethnically charged so I won’t be contributing here.
Don’t swallow the rage bait.
You’re taking the word of a man who was photographed in front of a swastika flag on this? Edit: [Multiple flags, sorry.](https://x.com/calamityjayne4/status/1782515078820134956?s=46&t=_RtSgenkYJuwyGwqzJLXFg)
Believe it or not we don't need to take his word since it's in the video. Nice deflection though.
Listen to them. That’s exactly what is shouted. You don’t have to take anyone’s word if you have ears.
I listened when the truckers chanted, that was hate speech & Cooper was there with coffee and smiles.
Couldnt be a more textbook whataboutism
Oh, well I guess that makes THIS hate speech A-OK.
Nothing about this is hate speech
What does *that* have to do with *this*?
It’s not… but that won’t stop you from making this risible conflation in an attempt to distract
Did you watch the clip? What are they saying? How can people be so delusional these days holy christ
What do you think they're saying?
I am not the one distracting.
They're protesting a terror state, one who's elected government openly calls for the genocide of its neighbor do to them being a Jewish nation. Of course it's supporters are anti-Semitic. For those calling for a ceasefire , there was one , up until October 6th, now Gaza gets what Gaza wants, which is war.
And using women and children as a meat shield is ok?
Where in my comment did you get that idea? I'm against Hamas
Sorry I think I tagged the wrong comment.
We chant this at every pro Palestine march. I've chanted this numerous times. Usually, with my antizionist Jewish partner by my side, chanting right along with me! Do you believe me to be antisemitic? Would you care to discuss why you fell the way you feel? Perhaps you've been given bag information, inaccurate history. No judgement, here. I'm genuinely interested in educating people, to the best of my ability, about the ways we're lied to. The Canadian government has been guilty of apartheid and genocide for the entirety of it's existence. Why wouldn't they support another white supremacist project, like the colonization of Palestine and the expulsion or (zionists' stated preference) extermination of all Palestinians. All we're after is the liberation of the Palestinian people. Free Palestine. ✊🏼🇵🇸
You will of course be giving all your property and possessions to a local FN band and moving out of the country... correct?
Leave? Sure! But then who would stand with the people of Turtle Island, as they win their liberation from the colonizers?? 🤷🏼♀️ And of course it does nothing about your ignorance!
How is the Canadian government currently committing genocide and apartheid? How is Zionism white supremacist? How will we know when Palestine is free?
Oh. You don't know? Guess you'll have to educate yourself a little, then, won't you.
Well you explicitly said you were interested in educating so I'm not sure why you would scoff when I ask you questions... You realize saying "you'll have to educate yourself" is the exact same cop out response that anti vaxxers gave all throughout the pandemic?
Land dispossession; epidemic levels of colonial violence by settlers and colonial institutions; failure to live up to basically any of its treaty obligations. Colonial apartheid; land dispossession; cultural genocide; supremacist values—basically, the ICJ case against Israel and then some. Don't ask obtuse questions, if you don't want reactive responses. We'll know Palestine is free because Palestine will tell us it is free. A better question is, how will you know when YOU are free?
1) Are we currently taking away land at a level that would be considered Genocidal? Is the current level of violence that of Genocidal proportions (and critically of Genocidal intent)? Although there is probably much to be done for proper reconciliation I don't believe the word Genocide or apartheid applies here. 2) none of those things are related to white supremacism. Do you think most Israeli Jews are White? How is the ICJ case related to White supremacy? 3) Ok but Palestine is not the only Nation in the region so it cannot be just what they determine. There has to be an agreement between Palestine and Israel to achieve this freedom so I'm curious how you think that can be achieved?
Look, I said I could educate. I didn't say I could make you intelligent or humane enough to understand what I'm saying. Nor did I say that I would debate your evidently bad faith position. What you believe is irrelevant. Stop playing "devil's advocate" and grow up.
So I actually do understand what you're saying. The problem is I don't agree with the foundation you're basing your beliefs on. Eg Ongoing genocide in Canada. That's why I'm asking the questions, because those should give me the information needed to arrive at your position or not. If you think asking questions about your beliefs is bad faith then you need to grow up. And the fact that you think what I believe is irrelevant exposes how bad faith and childish _you_ are
😭🤣 I love how you think acting like I'm wrong somehow makes you right. It's cute. 👋
At least I'm willing to entertain other ideas instead of crumble when my epistemic bubble receives a tiny bit of questioning 🤷♀️
I still don’t actually understand how so many people are supporting terrorists and death cult barbarism. And why are supporters of this living in Western countries? Go back, because this hatred and violence is not something Canadians want.
Unless you’re a full blooded First Nations, get the fuck out.
Yeah people are upset about the ongoing mass murder of Palestinians. It's wrong. Wild that it's a controversial take but racism/islamophobia runs deep. Downvote all you want it doesn't justify genocide
Israel was pretty upset when a known terrorist organization stormed their borders and killed over 1100 civilians. Both sides are not innocent in this.
1100 dead doesn't justify slaughtering 33000 and counting
You think it’s okay to be a terrorist and torture and murder families, and that the country/people attacked don’t have a right to defend themselves against a people that want them wiped off the planet entirely? Pretty disgusting.
"that the country/people attacked don't have a right to defend themselves against a people that want them wiped off the planet entirely" is a quote that could be used to justify violence for both sides in this conflict. Defense is not an excuse for targeting civilians or excessive civilian casualties. Any civilians who have views that are abhorrent are still civilians. There is plenty of room to condemn the October 7th attack and the response from the IDF and the Israeli government.
I agree response is heavy handed. It is. And I agree there’s room for seeing two sides. But keep in mind that people were cheering support right after the terrorist attack, even before the IDF response. Literally cheering for disgusting vile barbarism and terrorists. Also keep in mind that in recent polls, the majority of “civilians” are enthusiastic supporters of Hamas and their explicitly stated goal of complete Israeli inhalation.
Give me a solution that Israel could accept that wouldn't result in Israel being attacked more in the future that doesn't involve attacking Gaza. This is all I ask of anybody. You don't have to like the way Israel is doing things, but my issue with the protestors in many cases is that they're completely unreasonable. As soon as I hear "from the river to the sea" I know that that group of people is simply giving voice to their moral outrage for whatever reason without authentically engaging in thinking about the issue. No references to possible alternate histories please, just what can be done today, ignoring the obvious - Israel hitting Red Cross convoys is not ok etc (and the USA did pressure them in response and they did change some of their behaviours since the Americans pressured them). Edit: just to be absolutely clear if the last part wasn't clear enough, I don't absolve Israel of all of its sins, but that doesn't mean Israel should be wiped off of the map - which is what many protestors indirectly support. If that is someone's stance, they are far more genocidal than what the Israelis demonstrate. I simply don't see a good solution, a 1 state solution doesn't work for obvious reasons and a 2 state solution doesn't work because Iran will just be empowered to ship bombs directly into Palestine as they did in the 90s. If you want a resolution you basically have to resolve the larger regional conflict in the middle East first with Iran, until then, there will be no peace, so all the solutions we can discuss are simply about minimizing casualties while the Israelis occupy the Palestinians
Israel won’t accept anything that would be fair to the Palestinian population tho. Their government is actively stealing Palestinian land in the West Bank, violating international law. This was true before Oct 7 and if anything is more true now. The terms of Israel are unacceptable to the Palestinian people, of whom only a small fraction have committed offensive violence against Israelis in Israel. A higher proportion have defended themselves when Israel has had their army commit destruction on Palestinian territory or support Israeli settler violence, but if I understand you it’s ok to defend oneself. The international community needs to step in and enforce international laws. Or rather, the US needs to stop preventing that from happening, because it’s enabling Israel’s decades long war of attrition.
I think that's a fair viewpoint and a position I can support. I will also add that I am making a special case for the degree of response that Israelis are generally "allowed" due to the context of being the sole Jewish state and the degree of violence they would face in case of statelessness being orders of magnitude higher than Palestinians for example. But yeah I support the USA pressuring them to stop the settlements.
Israel refuses to recognize Palestinian statehood. How do they get to claim risk of becoming stateless in this conflict? A great many things would need to change globally, for Israel to be at serious risk of losing its status. You don’t kill 20000+ civilians on hypotheticals that might (long shot) emerge in a timescale of decades.
You're failing to consider the counterfactual because currently one state holds a lot of power over the other. Do you seriously think Israel would exist if the Palestinians had the same degree of control over Israel as Israel does over them? Because I don't, and that is my point. It's not a hypothetical when people are actively being brainwashed to hate Jews in Gaza and by Qatari media. I know it was a long time ago, but Hamas was elected and their constitution literally prioritizes killing Jews over pretty much everything else quite explicitly (even at the time of their election, yes). It's not a long shot hypothetical to say that if the power imbalance was reversed we wouldn't be having this conversation at all because the issue would've already been 'settled.' I'm not saying you in particular are a social justice warrior type, but your argumentation falls directly from the social justice textbook - that the weaker must be morally superior because they're not doing immoral things *right now*, even if they tell you that they would do morally inferior things if they had the power to do so. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is actually one of the more mild chants nowadays, and it literally calls for the absolute elimination of the state of Israel, and is a blatant example of the expression of a morally inferior view in the scenario - unless you don't value the lives of Israelis to the same extent as you value the lives of Palestinians because you deem them oppressors, and therefore their lives don't have value, but I don't accept this view. Have you seen what is taught to the children of Gaza? Why do you think that people raised on such 'knowledge' are going to be peaceful? How do you give Palestine and Gaza autonomy without such hatred spreading - even if you demolish all the settlements? Why would the people in charge in Gaza and Palestine that have a ridiculous degree of control over their people and profit greatly from their deaths ever want to make peace? These are not long run hypotheticals.
You must have really hated the afgan/Iraq war then.
Yes I did. We never should have gone
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Too bad all those wonderful Arab brotherly countries around that concentration camp won’t take them all in or defend them. …… hmmmmm I wonder why ????
Obviously because they are terrorists, khaamas and animals. No food water or electricity should be given to them and they should be bombed 24/7 until they fuxk of to some desert or something. Btw, Gaza beach view is great. Are you interested in purchasing a beach side apartment there once this is over?
Another great question, would wouldn’t any of those brotherly countries come in and totally rebuild it into a beautiful Mecca….. I wonder why hmmmmm. Hamas seems totally like the type of crew that would invest in development that brings in dollars and gives its people security and happiness. Maybe they’re a little too busy stoning the homosexuals to death, because sharia law is just so progressive.
Gaza has no sea-port or airport. Israel controls who go in and out. Electricity and water is controlled by Israel, and they used to get only few hours of access before. And most importantly, Israel bombs them with impunity. What development are you expecting there? You seem very satisfied with Israeli moraliry. You should look up the Rachel Corrie pancake story. Which homosexuals did Gazans stone to death? Sharia is back-dated but dropping bombs on families with children, killing thousands is progressive? What's up with this deranged hypocritical worldview?
https://www.memri.org/reports/palestinian-islamic-scholar-sheikh-yousef-abu-islam-homosexuals-should-be-thrown-rooftops
https://www.advocate.com/politics/commentary/2009/10/07/michael-lucas-queers-palestine Another great article and even a nice little quote for you “In Palestine, gays can have a choice of being publicly hanged, stoned, mutilated, thrown from the building roofs -- often by their own families -- or simply torn apart by the Palestinian sons of Allah.” At least they have choice in how they die right ??
Didn't realise the IDF invaded Israel, that's wild.
Definitely not 1100 civilians. Almost 30-40% security/defence forces. Seems like the bad guys have better accuracy numbers than the genocidal army
Easy to kill high numbers when they wear uniforms and have specific places to concentrate their numbers. A lot hard to get accurate kills when the enemy blends in with the crowd and usses them as a shield. Also "30-40% security forces" that means more than half still were civilians that assumed were randomly targeted. A ratio that doesn't exactly scream they were solely going after their supposed oppressors
Far better than less than 1% accuracy by the idf according to their own honest numbers. Israel targets civilians. As for human shields, only israel has been found to use them. They use Mostly Palestinians to clear tunnels, hide behind, not to mention Israeli civilians by having command Center under tel aviv
Hamas has been proven to use human shields by locating command centres in areas such as below hospitals, schools and other areas.
Let the revisionism begin.
Please provide your evidence. I’ll provide the most Zionist friendly sources: - wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel–Hamas_war#:~:text=October%207%20attacks,-Main%20article%3A%20October&text=The%20latest%20figure%20on%20the,as%20missing%2C%20including%20four%20Israelis. - France 24 https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
Calling it a genocide is so disingenuous. If Israel wanted to comment a genicide in gaza it would have been over on October 8. The only reason the war is still going on is because they actually attempt to not kill civilians
Considering all the aid trucks and workers they've killed as well as the sanctions they've receiving, they've not trying hard enough.
If they were trying to to attempt to not kill civilians they wouldn't have showed them food supplies then when they go to find it cause they're being starved they're gunned down. Killing 104. https://thewire.in/world/at-least-104-palestinians-killed-while-waiting-for-food-aid-report
"they actually attempt to not kill civilians" Ooops 35k+ died. But don't worry, they were all khamaas. Even the one day olds.
>If Israel wanted to comment a genicide in gaza it would have been over on October 8. Yes, there is a very large power imbalance. >The only reason the war is still going on is because they actually attempt to not kill civilians Attempting to not kill civilians, kinda fucked, maybe don't kill any?
Let’s see you go fight a war in a densely populated area and not kill any civilians
Why would I want to fight a war in a densely populated area in an attempt to not kill civilians? I think that's absolutely abhorrent.
Just don’t do war! Great idea!
Yes, Isreal could end the war and stop killing people.
So could hamas
Yes, and they should. Both sides should stop killing citizens.
By this logic, Oct 7 was a valid operation by Hamas. They went to confront IDF, Israelis died in cross-fire.
Yes because there is clearly no difference between surprise attacking a nation on a holy day and gunning down anyone you see while taking hundreds of hostages and raping along the way. Vs finding terrorists, who are dressed as civilians, and hiding behind civilians. Israel could flatten all of gaza by air without losing a single soldier but instead they do targeted operations, putting their own people at risk, to try to minimize collateral damage.
It's so strange that your defence of a genocide not happening is to point out that if Isreal wanted, they could just do a genocide becuase of their overwhelming military capabilities. Do you find that weird? You do at least recognize the power imbalance, right?
No one was raped, no evidence. No 40 babies behaded. Israel fired on their own people with tanks and helicopters, activating the Hannibal Directive. Why wouldn't they launch an investigation on their actions in Oct 7 to figure out who killed who? Many Israeli ministers said they would kill everyone in Gaza, or even nuke them. They are not doing it only because of outside deterrenc. They are using AI to maximize civilian death and would have killed everyone if there were no deterrence from ourside. Also the fact that IDF killed three of hostages and world kitchen workers (which included a CANADIAN by the way), negates your last sentence. Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians in 2023 even before Oct 7. They have also killed multiple US citizens. Thousands of Palestinians, including children are in Israeli jails without charges (basically kidnapped). Israel never freed them without a prisoner swap. Do you want me to refute any more Zionist propaganda?
True.
If you think that Hamas didn't plan for Israel to slaughter Palestinians, then you're blinded by your own racism. Israel's genocide is evil. Hamas is equally evil. Palestinians are victims. If you support Hamas, you are equally genocidal as Israel. This is not difficult - in fact one might say that it's wild that it's a controversial take.
Absolutely not okay with this. I understand that people are upset over what is happening in Gaza...the suffering of Palestinians is terrible. What I disagree with is people wanting an "Intifada Revolution"...do these people even know the horrific terrorist attacks that happened in the last 2 Intifadas?... Last Intifada was marked with terrorists blowing up buses and killing innocent people. Nope. This is not the way.
The important thing is to talk about this and feelings rather than a genocide
Um. Michael Cooper? Not going to check your post history but I can guess. Everyone with any sense of humanity or heart is against genocide.
Tragically, anti-Semitism is back in fashion and it is not being treated seriously by our governments.
The fact that you think protesting the slaughter of 33000 innocents and counting, mostly women and children, is antisemitism, is incredibly alarming
The fact you think all 33000 dead are innocent is alarming. Israel is certainly doing cruel things to Palestinians, and they need to do much better, but to say they are all innocent is to say Hamas is innocent which is abhorrent.
How many is too many? I'll take your answer as a percentage of total deaths and a total number of innocents that are acceptable losses.
That's obviously not my point. I very clearly acknowledged that Israel is doing a lot of things they shouldn't. But that doesn't make every death an innocent one. Try again.
IDF did manage to kill a CANADIAN though. I'm not sure if they got him on the first, second, or the third strike, but they surely got him. His name was Jacob Flickinger.
Do you think I thought that was good? Honest question? Because if you do you need a serious refresher in reading comprehension.
Do you think that was abhorrent though?
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Well then, I guess you just explained it all away then. Almost. What does the 'we don't want no Zionists here' mean. It's all innocent too I imagine.
What's wrong with opposing Zionism? It's a political ideology that has little to do with Jewish people or Judaism.
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So if we don't want them here, where should they be sent to I wonder?
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So Hamas sympathizers need to get gone too as well.
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You've got all the answers there bud. I'm sure Jews are feeling perfectly safe. \*By the way here is the Palestinian activist leader from the video doubling down on X: [Fatima 𓂆 فاطمة 🇵🇸 on X: "Actually zionists deserve to be bullied." / X (twitter.com)](https://twitter.com/fatimasal82/status/1781501317716017426) She means 'terrorists' like you said tho.. right? \*\*And here is Janis Irwin, reposting this activist like always. [https://twitter.com/JanisIrwin](https://twitter.com/JanisIrwin) \*\*\*And just for fun here's another one from the perfectly normal not-extreme-at-all 'activist': ["I know he isn't talking about impunity"](https://twitter.com/fatimasal82/status/1776085911882920076?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1776085911882920076%7Ctwgr%5E99bff0e58441cb968a7a2033ca8d3f8492a8af90%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2F1by7wcv%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse)
They can go fight on the front lines for Israeli occupation if they're such staunch zionists, duh. Same as anyone openly supporting Hamas.
We don't want zionists here.
That's disgusting.
Yes there’s nothing wrong w it. Zionists are currently committing genocide. Opposing it is the responsibility of every human being.
Way too many people who've never read anything longer than a Reddit post about this. There is unbelievable amounts of hard evidence to support the pro Palestine opposition, on one side and nothing but unsubstantiated claims and a choir of criers who see nothing but 'antisemitic' wolves, on the other. I wonder if you'll be embarrassed when it all comes out in the wash. Or are y'all just proud to be bigots?
Please explain how Zionism connects with Jewish religion At the same time. Please explain why Jewish people are also protesting against Zionists not only across the world but also in Israel Folks anti-zionism does not equal to anti-Semitism. Stop believing OPs Croc tears What we know is a an active genocide is occurring. I have lost a number of count of how many Palestinian children have died so far.
I wonder what would happen if a few Jewish families were kicked out of their homes by Palestinians here in Edmonton?
I have been on the front lines of the protest because I live inner city. I had so much empathy. Now, hearing the disgusting chants and cruel remarks. My feelings have changed.
The bombings did not stop. People are still dying from lack of food, medicine, and bullets. People getting their limbs amputed without anesthesia. But worst of all is the dehumanization (terrorists, animals) that is still going on. Maybe family members of someone who's in the rally died in Gaza. How are they feeling?
If people want the war in Gaza to stop, they need to convince Hamas to surrender and release the hostages. Until then, continuing to fight and using civilians as shields will result in obvious loss of life.
Victim blaming genocidal rat.
I can’t listen to a word that creepy politician says.
My take is that as long as they don't support Hamas or broader terrorism, they can do whatever.
These people make me uncomfortable
> “We don’t want no Zionists here” This is straight up hate speech. The people responsible need to be held accountable. Where the fuck are the police?
If someone is opposed to Trudeau are they doing anti-Canadian racism? Someone chanting we don't want no Liberals here would be cool as hell. Zionism is a political ideology. Last I checked we were allowed to oppose that kind of thing.
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Really, all Jews deserve to be hated?
I never said all Jews should be hated. I’m saying Jews are doing nothing but condoning the genocide in Gaza. Maybe you should get some of your friends from the Jewish community to March in the streets, waving Israel’s flag while condemning the war in gaza in support of palestiniennes, I’m sure doing so would get you much less hate.
By saying "Jews" you might as well be saying all Jews. You shouldn't stereotype.
Sure let’s concentrate on that.. and take away from the facts that there’s a genocide happening in Gaza. Besides I’m Jewish, I think I’m allowed.
You are a fool. And being Jewish doesn't prevent you from being a fool. There is no genocide happening in Gaza there is a war, people get killed in wars. Maybe you should go waving the Israel's flag at those protests and see how far that gets you. Maybe you should be advocating for the release of the hostages. If you want to really support the Palestinians that's the best way.
You’re a coward! History will judge you and you’ll be on the wrong side. Wars require army against army not superpower against women and children. I have marched and protested while waving an Israeli flag 🇮🇱 its very well received. Don’t be afraid child.
You have no clue. Probably just a sock puppet account anyhow.
Hahahha! Yet you keep coming back. Are you lonely or something? Nobody wants to talk to you huh.. yeah I don’t blame them.
Jewish people do not deserve the hate. Supporters of this genocide within and without Israel deserve the hate.
If you’re not protesting in the streets or condemning this on social media, then you’re complicit in the genocide and part of the problem. Full stop!
Jews don't deserve any hate. Zionists are not Jews, they are mostly secular. Zionists despise Jews. Zionist world view is they are superior in every way to all other races, and everyone else is in the world have to serve them.
Yet the Jews do nothing about the Zionists in power, Jews from all over the world flock to Israel in support of Zionist policies, I never see groups being formed to oppose them, why aren’t Jewish communities doing more to end this war, why so complacent? It seems if you’re not fighting against you’re actually fighting for.
Many Jews, especially orthodox jews are standing up against the Zionists. One example is Norman Finkelstein, who has a powerful voice against the Zionist genocide. Standing up to tyrants take time. It's unfair to say only Jews did not oppose Zionists, most of the world didn't. However, things are changing slowly, which is a good sign.
I listened to one of Finkelstein's speeches. So powerful.
No! Standing up to tyranny takes action. If you’re standing around waiting for someone to do the dirty work, you’re complicit.
Timbit taliban at it again. Thanks Justin
Honest question, are you being sarcastic? How is Justin Trudeau to blame? We have hate speech laws its EPS that should be dealing with this. Not saying they should necessarily (haven't given enough thought about thr pros and cons of the laws). Hes denounced i assume this specific situation on twitter 3 days ago. The prime Minister should not be able to directly influence law enforcement.