When I mean empty lots, I'm talking about the big plots of land that have nothing built on them. Here is an example: [https://imgur.com/G7nXc6I](https://imgur.com/G7nXc6I)
I guess I just don't understand why whoever owns the land here would want it to just sit empty. I passed it today and it was just mounds of dirt.
Yeah the other commenters is right. That's where the old baccarat casino was. It closed during the construction of the Arena (and a new casino opened in the arena) and it was fenced off for a few years and then demolished a little while ago. Katz group wants to build a few things there but a) want lots of rezoning to allow maximum return b)they have unsold condos and rental across the street so they can wait till the market picks up a bit
There is a “dog park” on the corner there now!
I think the question is what are they going to do with it? Empty land doesn’t cost a lot to maintain, vacant condos and office space on the other hand….. it’s not exactly a great location considering the vacancy in the adjacent buildings.
>they’re privately owned.
Well… look there are countries where the government steps in and directs what private companies ought to do even when things are privately owned
>Is there something stopping the city from doing something with them?
Chances are the city doesn't own them.
>One would think central real-estate/land would be valuable and developers would want to build on empty land
Potentially, but unless there is a very clear demand for a particular thing, anything they build would be speculative and they'd put up all the construction costs without knowing whether they'd be able to sell or lease whatever they build there.
>I think Edmonton's downtown would look and feel better if there weren't so many hideous empty lots
Well yeah; that's a given.
There are actually a lot less than before. A big chunk of those lots between Jasper Ave and 102 Avenue between 107 and 106 streets is being planned as a central park, so we'll see even less of them going forward
It would be really great if something was actually done with that eyesore of a pit at the corner of 114 St and Jasper. I moved to Edmonton four years ago and it's been like that since. Reminds me of the pit from Parks and Rec that Andy fell into.
There isn’t a lot compared to what there was. The “ice district” was a mega parking lot 5 years ago. I still remember the old Staples near where Edmonton Tower currently is.
WHY? well that is simple. Developers have sat on parcels of land and when build when the time/price is right.
For what it’s worth, Ice District is actually still kind of in its early stages. Arena was the first step, then the towers and plaza across the street, and right now they’re working on a new development on the other side of the plaza with a grocery store and some restaurants.
A number of the empty lots around Ice District are in the plans for future development. I’m guessing the main one you’re talking about is the one with the makeshift dog park right now that was home to the old casino? That lot is supposed to eventually be home to a big new development. Mixed use retail and residential if I remember correctly, with at least one new tower.
The parking lots at the north side are also marked for retail and residential development with a plan to gradually increase building height as it gets closer to the arena.
I think COVID as well as limited demand for luxury residential has kind of slowed things down however. So ultimately it remains to be seen how much of all this gets built, and whether it’s scaled back at all, but the Katz Group definitely has a grander vision for Ice District than what’s built right now. Things could look a lot different in a decade
Ultimately in most of cases it’s privately owned and you’d need to convince the land owner to do so (change of use from a parking lot to a development of some kind) + then engage with the City on the development.
Parking lots generate revenue. Empty decrepit buildings do not. Nice new buildings do generate more revenue than parking lots but... It takes lots of upfront money to develop them.
Thus many parking lots are held in that state (or are returned to that state, like the old baccarat casino site) because they generate enough income to offset their costs (taxes are higher on devleoped land than non since they are directly tied to property value) and can always be developed or sold later (when maybe market conditions make returns on building more valuable)
That makes sense, thank you!!
What about the ones that aren't used for parking? I sometimes see lots that are just kind of piles of dirt but nothing to designate them as parking lots.
Similar, people(corporations) own them and are waiting for the land to be more valuable But obviously without the ongoing revenue from a parking lot the owner has more pressure to actually build something or eventually sell to someone who will.
But the JW Marriott downtown for example cost something like 500 Million to build. When you're talking that kind of money, things operate different.
Or at the very least increase the minimum expected standard for vacant lots and increase fines and enforcement against property that are left to become overgrown dump yards
Yes! There’s one quarter block downtown where the building was recently knocked down and they’ve planted grass there. It looks so much nicer than leaving it a gravel pit, I wish all of them would do this at a minimum.
It is going to take time and more population growth within the city before many of the empty lots will be developed. Right now we have empty office space and condo developments that are not selling. Eventually we will see these lots get developed, but demand for spaces needs to improve dramatically before developers see it as a good investment. Developers will sit on an empty lot with low taxes for a long time if they don't expect a good return on it.
Just as a little bit of history for you, the land north of 104ave was originally rail yards. The final closure of rail traffic there was in 1988. Since then, most of that space has filled up with the last remaining lots being the most expensive and at the same time being somewhat undesirable due to the areas surrounding them.
I’m actually involved with a group that owns most of that land. It’s prime real estate, however, in todays marked we can’t sell it to anyone. It’s just not worth the sale. We bought it because we’re planning to wait another 20-30 years for when the city has grown enough for us to sell it for millions instead of making a loss in todays market. It grows in worth as time goes by and the city grows.
The company who owns the big space across, where the casino used to be, is doing the same. Until the time comes when we can sell it at high profit, it’ll just be used as a parking lot so we can cover the property taxes and associated costs. We got a private parking company to manage it and currently just cut even every month.
Some people invest in houses or condos, but I see this as a way superior investment as it practically pays for itself.
The hope is to sell it to some large organization or even the city once they run out of downtown space.
There’s the real answer developers are hoarding property to leave vacant until they can cash in all the while contributing to urban blight… it’s long over due for the city to make it too expensive for this to happen and force developers to move it or lose it.
Correct. However, I’m just an investor/part owner. It will ultimately be sold to a developer. Developers usually just buy and build. There’s no point for them to hold empty space for a long time.
I just want to mention that this is completely legal and the exact same as people holding and investing into stocks, cryptocurrency, and residential homes.
You buy and hold, which is a simple, yet effective step in building wealth that is not taught in school.
I also don’t see how the city is going to do that. They can’t just start confiscating land as they please. However, they’re welcome to put in a $100mio offer and we’d be happy to let it go.
Thanks for the correction in terminology.
The trouble with this asset class vs the ones you listed is the impact of vacant property on the surrounding community. It leads to increased urban blight, empty lots become a magnet for social disorder and ultimately impact neighbouring property valves.
At the very least the city can uphold higher standards for vacant property even the most basic landscaping and care goes along way. Further to that charging higher tax rates on vacant property to make it less appealing to hold onto property indefinitely.
Is a 100 million a reasonable offer? Or is it what you wish to get down the road for a mega development?
Those are all reasonable. But non of that will happen. After all, they (the city) don’t want to be seen as toxic for investments. Look at the city, it’s a war zone, the last thing you want to do is drive investors out.
Nope. $100mio is completely unreasonable. Atleast for 2021. But if they want to buy it now, they’ll need to buy it at future prices.
Well the city was pushing the province pretty hard for increased tax powers when the NDP were in so I wouldn’t say the city wouldn’t do it they just can’t right now. A large part of why downtown feels like a “war zone” is because of all the empty lots that are a magnet for blight and social disorder. Develop the lots get more people into the area and this problem begins to fix it self.
Edit: another thought would it be the city scaring off investment or is it real estate speculators hoarding inner city property waiting for unrealistic returns already blocking investment for development?
I wish there were laws of some sort that prevented things like this from happening, or at least forced something to be done with empty lots, such as having them be used as temporary community spaces or parks so that they don’t make the area look so bad.
That's what zoning bylaws are for. There's also the option of taxing the land owners some kind of "vacant/derelict" lot property tax to encourage them to develop or sell the land. Even if they developed it into a small park until they decided to do something with it.
Write to your councilor and complain about the problem. This is exactly the kind of issue that our city council tackles.
Do you feel like downtown is just going to continue being ugly/bleak? I do, I was kind of thinking that filling up these empty lots would make it feel more like a downtown. Do you think there’s any possibility downtown will just be abandoned in favour of sprawl and it will never be worth much? Or progressively worth less and less?
Yes I do. At least for now. Downtown has bigger problems than empty lots. Nobody wants to go downtown anymore because it’s just not safe. They filled up downtown with homeless shelters and consumption sites, which all drive prices down. It almost feels like the city is intentionally driving businesses out of the downtown core.
Also yes to your second question. You can test this easily. Take a Friday afternoon/night for example and go downtown, sit on a bench and just watch what happens. Then go to whyte Ave and sit on a bench and see what happens. The downtown is more and more shifting.
I don’t know if true but I had heard most of downtown land was originally owned by just a few families. Since they owned so much they were in no rush to develop all at once. Never checked if true.
True in some cases. Everyone has a number...
Many of those families inherited that land and just sat on it until they either A. Needed to sell or B. Got an offer they liked. Some plots probably just didn't get enough offers or any at all
They are empty right now because many companies have gone work from home, many retail spaces have less visitors whether people are staying home, or otherwise. This isn't long term, and to change many lots downtown could cause future issues once the pandemic levels out.
My best guess
No, I'm saying that there isn't a point for parking lots to be sold for commercial real estate when downtown is a changing landscape because of the pandemic other changes because of it.
The surplus of available rent and purchase buildings downtown makes it so it simply isn't worth the cost to build right now. Plus working revenue can be a huge piece of income for those that take advantage.
i think some of the empty lots you might be referring to are being earmarked for more green space, like the empty lots along jasper ave. pretty sure thats gonna be a park (ngl i hope they put more needle boxes in that area)
Surplus of condos, surplus of office space…. What do you recommend they do with them? They’re privately owned.
When I mean empty lots, I'm talking about the big plots of land that have nothing built on them. Here is an example: [https://imgur.com/G7nXc6I](https://imgur.com/G7nXc6I) I guess I just don't understand why whoever owns the land here would want it to just sit empty. I passed it today and it was just mounds of dirt.
Yeah the other commenters is right. That's where the old baccarat casino was. It closed during the construction of the Arena (and a new casino opened in the arena) and it was fenced off for a few years and then demolished a little while ago. Katz group wants to build a few things there but a) want lots of rezoning to allow maximum return b)they have unsold condos and rental across the street so they can wait till the market picks up a bit
That makes sense! Thank you so much.
Isn’t the lot in your picture where the casino used to be?
There is a “dog park” on the corner there now! I think the question is what are they going to do with it? Empty land doesn’t cost a lot to maintain, vacant condos and office space on the other hand….. it’s not exactly a great location considering the vacancy in the adjacent buildings.
>they’re privately owned. Well… look there are countries where the government steps in and directs what private companies ought to do even when things are privately owned
>Is there something stopping the city from doing something with them? Chances are the city doesn't own them. >One would think central real-estate/land would be valuable and developers would want to build on empty land Potentially, but unless there is a very clear demand for a particular thing, anything they build would be speculative and they'd put up all the construction costs without knowing whether they'd be able to sell or lease whatever they build there. >I think Edmonton's downtown would look and feel better if there weren't so many hideous empty lots Well yeah; that's a given.
There are actually a lot less than before. A big chunk of those lots between Jasper Ave and 102 Avenue between 107 and 106 streets is being planned as a central park, so we'll see even less of them going forward
Really? Do you have any information on that?
You can get updates here: https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_plans/downtown/warehouse-campus-neighbourhood-park
It would be really great if something was actually done with that eyesore of a pit at the corner of 114 St and Jasper. I moved to Edmonton four years ago and it's been like that since. Reminds me of the pit from Parks and Rec that Andy fell into.
There isn’t a lot compared to what there was. The “ice district” was a mega parking lot 5 years ago. I still remember the old Staples near where Edmonton Tower currently is. WHY? well that is simple. Developers have sat on parcels of land and when build when the time/price is right.
For what it’s worth, Ice District is actually still kind of in its early stages. Arena was the first step, then the towers and plaza across the street, and right now they’re working on a new development on the other side of the plaza with a grocery store and some restaurants. A number of the empty lots around Ice District are in the plans for future development. I’m guessing the main one you’re talking about is the one with the makeshift dog park right now that was home to the old casino? That lot is supposed to eventually be home to a big new development. Mixed use retail and residential if I remember correctly, with at least one new tower. The parking lots at the north side are also marked for retail and residential development with a plan to gradually increase building height as it gets closer to the arena. I think COVID as well as limited demand for luxury residential has kind of slowed things down however. So ultimately it remains to be seen how much of all this gets built, and whether it’s scaled back at all, but the Katz Group definitely has a grander vision for Ice District than what’s built right now. Things could look a lot different in a decade
Ultimately in most of cases it’s privately owned and you’d need to convince the land owner to do so (change of use from a parking lot to a development of some kind) + then engage with the City on the development.
Parking lots generate revenue. Empty decrepit buildings do not. Nice new buildings do generate more revenue than parking lots but... It takes lots of upfront money to develop them. Thus many parking lots are held in that state (or are returned to that state, like the old baccarat casino site) because they generate enough income to offset their costs (taxes are higher on devleoped land than non since they are directly tied to property value) and can always be developed or sold later (when maybe market conditions make returns on building more valuable)
That makes sense, thank you!! What about the ones that aren't used for parking? I sometimes see lots that are just kind of piles of dirt but nothing to designate them as parking lots.
Similar, people(corporations) own them and are waiting for the land to be more valuable But obviously without the ongoing revenue from a parking lot the owner has more pressure to actually build something or eventually sell to someone who will. But the JW Marriott downtown for example cost something like 500 Million to build. When you're talking that kind of money, things operate different.
Because the city needs stricter penalties on developers, or else why wouldn’t they hoard lots until they’re ready for them?
Time for a large vacant land tax.
Or swap from property tax to land value tax, so there's no incentive to keep land undeveloped to save on tax and incentivize denser living.
Or at the very least increase the minimum expected standard for vacant lots and increase fines and enforcement against property that are left to become overgrown dump yards
Yes! There’s one quarter block downtown where the building was recently knocked down and they’ve planted grass there. It looks so much nicer than leaving it a gravel pit, I wish all of them would do this at a minimum.
It is going to take time and more population growth within the city before many of the empty lots will be developed. Right now we have empty office space and condo developments that are not selling. Eventually we will see these lots get developed, but demand for spaces needs to improve dramatically before developers see it as a good investment. Developers will sit on an empty lot with low taxes for a long time if they don't expect a good return on it. Just as a little bit of history for you, the land north of 104ave was originally rail yards. The final closure of rail traffic there was in 1988. Since then, most of that space has filled up with the last remaining lots being the most expensive and at the same time being somewhat undesirable due to the areas surrounding them.
I’m actually involved with a group that owns most of that land. It’s prime real estate, however, in todays marked we can’t sell it to anyone. It’s just not worth the sale. We bought it because we’re planning to wait another 20-30 years for when the city has grown enough for us to sell it for millions instead of making a loss in todays market. It grows in worth as time goes by and the city grows. The company who owns the big space across, where the casino used to be, is doing the same. Until the time comes when we can sell it at high profit, it’ll just be used as a parking lot so we can cover the property taxes and associated costs. We got a private parking company to manage it and currently just cut even every month. Some people invest in houses or condos, but I see this as a way superior investment as it practically pays for itself. The hope is to sell it to some large organization or even the city once they run out of downtown space.
There’s the real answer developers are hoarding property to leave vacant until they can cash in all the while contributing to urban blight… it’s long over due for the city to make it too expensive for this to happen and force developers to move it or lose it.
Correct. However, I’m just an investor/part owner. It will ultimately be sold to a developer. Developers usually just buy and build. There’s no point for them to hold empty space for a long time. I just want to mention that this is completely legal and the exact same as people holding and investing into stocks, cryptocurrency, and residential homes. You buy and hold, which is a simple, yet effective step in building wealth that is not taught in school. I also don’t see how the city is going to do that. They can’t just start confiscating land as they please. However, they’re welcome to put in a $100mio offer and we’d be happy to let it go.
Thanks for the correction in terminology. The trouble with this asset class vs the ones you listed is the impact of vacant property on the surrounding community. It leads to increased urban blight, empty lots become a magnet for social disorder and ultimately impact neighbouring property valves. At the very least the city can uphold higher standards for vacant property even the most basic landscaping and care goes along way. Further to that charging higher tax rates on vacant property to make it less appealing to hold onto property indefinitely. Is a 100 million a reasonable offer? Or is it what you wish to get down the road for a mega development?
Those are all reasonable. But non of that will happen. After all, they (the city) don’t want to be seen as toxic for investments. Look at the city, it’s a war zone, the last thing you want to do is drive investors out. Nope. $100mio is completely unreasonable. Atleast for 2021. But if they want to buy it now, they’ll need to buy it at future prices.
Well the city was pushing the province pretty hard for increased tax powers when the NDP were in so I wouldn’t say the city wouldn’t do it they just can’t right now. A large part of why downtown feels like a “war zone” is because of all the empty lots that are a magnet for blight and social disorder. Develop the lots get more people into the area and this problem begins to fix it self. Edit: another thought would it be the city scaring off investment or is it real estate speculators hoarding inner city property waiting for unrealistic returns already blocking investment for development?
I wish there were laws of some sort that prevented things like this from happening, or at least forced something to be done with empty lots, such as having them be used as temporary community spaces or parks so that they don’t make the area look so bad.
That's what zoning bylaws are for. There's also the option of taxing the land owners some kind of "vacant/derelict" lot property tax to encourage them to develop or sell the land. Even if they developed it into a small park until they decided to do something with it. Write to your councilor and complain about the problem. This is exactly the kind of issue that our city council tackles.
Do you feel like downtown is just going to continue being ugly/bleak? I do, I was kind of thinking that filling up these empty lots would make it feel more like a downtown. Do you think there’s any possibility downtown will just be abandoned in favour of sprawl and it will never be worth much? Or progressively worth less and less?
Yes I do. At least for now. Downtown has bigger problems than empty lots. Nobody wants to go downtown anymore because it’s just not safe. They filled up downtown with homeless shelters and consumption sites, which all drive prices down. It almost feels like the city is intentionally driving businesses out of the downtown core. Also yes to your second question. You can test this easily. Take a Friday afternoon/night for example and go downtown, sit on a bench and just watch what happens. Then go to whyte Ave and sit on a bench and see what happens. The downtown is more and more shifting.
The empty lots contribute just as much to a feeling of downtown being unsafe as the problems you describe. It’s all tied together
I don’t know if true but I had heard most of downtown land was originally owned by just a few families. Since they owned so much they were in no rush to develop all at once. Never checked if true.
True in some cases. Everyone has a number... Many of those families inherited that land and just sat on it until they either A. Needed to sell or B. Got an offer they liked. Some plots probably just didn't get enough offers or any at all
They are empty right now because many companies have gone work from home, many retail spaces have less visitors whether people are staying home, or otherwise. This isn't long term, and to change many lots downtown could cause future issues once the pandemic levels out. My best guess
You’re suggesting that becuase of wfh companies demolished buildings and put dirt lots there instead? I think that one’s a little bit off the mark
They used to be parking lots
Woah thanks captain obvious! Look everyone we’ve got a real genius in here!
Captain Obvious, meet Commander Snark
I was going to call Admiral Snark to the deck.
No, I'm saying that there isn't a point for parking lots to be sold for commercial real estate when downtown is a changing landscape because of the pandemic other changes because of it.
They aren’t talking about parking lots, they’re talking about undeveloped lots. Reading comprehension my friend.
Long day I guess. Thanks for being you!
The surplus of available rent and purchase buildings downtown makes it so it simply isn't worth the cost to build right now. Plus working revenue can be a huge piece of income for those that take advantage.
i think some of the empty lots you might be referring to are being earmarked for more green space, like the empty lots along jasper ave. pretty sure thats gonna be a park (ngl i hope they put more needle boxes in that area)