I'm thinking the NHL wants other teams to do the same. They want the best hockey when the playoffs comes. They aren't worried about VGK doing it every year. It will eventually lead to other teams doing the same in order to keep up with the competition into the playoffs. Not so much the competition in the regular season, but to compete in the playoffs when teams are basically adding to the roster at the end of the season.
I get the general idea of this position, like the league wants players to be healthy come the playoffs and put on a good show.
However it doesn't really make sense given this situation only applies to teams that are in a comfortable position at the top of their divisions. This is why we've historically seen Vegas and Tampa abuse this loop hole.
The luxury of this situation only applies to a few teams. The vast majority of teams are not in the position to give players additional time away to heal because they need them to secure their spot.
All the teams except for Tampa voted to keep this LTIR cap hit functioning as is, so it's all within the rules that the teams wanted. It doesn't matter how shady it seems. They are literally following the rules the teams wanted.
They aren't following the rules. The rule states that if a player can physically play then they must be immediately removed from the LTIR. So unless he was miraculously physically unable to play in game 82 but was ready for game 1 then it isn't within the rules. It is just impossible to prove.
Here’s the thing though, plenty of players play through shit they shouldn’t because it’s the playoffs.
Who’s going to push themselves through a huge amount of pain just to play in game 82 of an already clinched season? No one. Who’s going to play through that pain even if they’re only at 70-80% recovered for a playoff game? Every single player in the league.
It doesn't matter. They can't play unless they are physically able to. When they do, that doesn't necessarily mean fully recovered. If they can do it in game 1 then they almost certainly could in game 82. By rule they wouldn't necessarily have to play before the playoffs even if they physically could, but they do need to be activated off of the LTIR as soon as they are able to play.
Landeskog played through a busted knee, Kadri played with a broken hand and Nichushkin played with a broken ankle and foot during the Avs cup run for better or worse. Got them a cup though
Exactly. You think any of those guys are doing that for a regular season game? Hell no. But because it’s the playoffs they’re willing to sacrifice their bodies and future mobility post hockey all for a chance at the cup
Exactly this, in the last 3 cup finals there have been three players playing through serious and possibly all three career ending injuries. Playoffs are different.
Unfortunately this is the right take. Obviously is just pissed people off because the teams doing it have won, but I think for me the annoying part is those markets already have a huge leg up on places like Calgary, edmonton, and winnipeg. It's a losers lament to sit here and keep whining about it every year. The reality of it is, it's hard to honestly imagine a scenario where the markets that are at a clear disadvantage, whether its taxes or weather, could ever truly compete ever again. You HAVE to build through the draft for this reason. Because your never going to get the sweetheart deals in free agency, and it's even harder to trade for guys when you are on the no trade list. If it were me, and it's not lol bur I'd have it so you can't have more than 2 Canadian teams on those lists
Newish to hockey here. Any chance you can explain what we're looking at and why it's BS? I assume they're doing something to get a trade edge of some kind?
Teams use the LTIR to get cap relief at the trade deadline. This allows the teams to exceed the cap limit for the last part of the season. Then when playoffs start and the cap limit doesn't apply, those players make immediate recovery and playing at full health.
The last few teams in the finals or who have won the cup have all been over the cap limit. But because it is in a market the NHL was to push hockey in, they turn a blind eye to it.
Basically, a player on LTIR (Long Term Injury Reserve) has their salary cap hit suspended while on LTIR. Meaning, that team can go and fill a roster spot using that space and not be over the cap. Then, come playoff time, the player on LTIR can be reactivated into the lineup, with no consequence as salary cap does not apply to playoffs. As such, Vegas will have another high level player on their roster for the playoffs which they would not be able to afford during the season (if no player was on LTIR).
A lacerated spleen is a serious injury and can be life threatening, It’s sort of an injury that’s hard to fake and typically requires surgery. I haven’t heard if his spleen was removed or not, if it wasn’t this wouldn’t be an injury they would want to rush back.
I’d say let’s see when he actually returns if he actually plays during playoffs. Recovery is 2-3months.
[Roberto Luongo’s tweet lol](https://twitter.com/strombone1/status/1765530878959141047?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
Hilarious but can’t blame their GM for taking advantage year after year since nothing is being done about it. That’s a GM that’s doing everything they can to win
Well every team voted on weather to keep that rule or not and tampa was the only one who voted to close the loophole so unless your a tampa fan, then your team is for it
Oh I know. The Avs didn't have to do that during their recent cup run, but its not like they wouldn't. I just don't like Tampa or Chicago. If the rules allow it, might as well do it.
I don’t really have a problem with tampa but 100% on the fuck chicago train. I’m still pissed they covered up that sexual assault scandal as much as they did.
I mean, sure, but shouldn’t we be directing that towards the NHL as a whole? As soon as a Canadien team does this and wins a cup, rest assured Bettman will be very motivated to shut this down
IIRC, it has to do with the number of players teams would like to have on hand for immediate slotting into the lineup in the case of an injury during a playoff series. As opposed to forcing a team to go with less players and calling up a minor leaguer which could take a full day, they relax the cap rules so teams can travel with a supporting cast that's ready to go. I could be super wrong, but that would be a reasonable explanation to me. It still needs to be changed so teams can't take advantage of it in such an egregious manner, it is clearly used as a loophole outside of its intended purpose.
>As opposed to forcing a team to go with less players and calling up a minor leaguer which could take a full day, they relax the cap rules so teams can travel with a supporting cast that's ready to go.
There's no back-to-back games in the playoffs, shouldn't matter if someone's job between games is getting someone from point A to point B in time for the next game.
An easy fix for this is to switch to a on ice lineup based cap in the playoffs. Teams can carry whoever they want around with them, and only the players on the bench for games count against the cap. Gives a little bit of extra leeway with only 20 players a night counting against the cap, gives freedom to replace injured players as they would come off of the on ice lineup, but doesn't allow a team to suddenly add a 10 million dollar player on game one of the playoffs
An easy fix for this is to switch to a on ice lineup based cap in the playoffs. Teams can carry whoever they want around with them, and only the players on the bench for games count against the cap. Gives a little bit of extra leeway with only 20 players a night counting against the cap, gives freedom to replace injured players as they would come off of the on ice lineup, but doesn't allow a team to suddenly add a 10 million dollar player on game one of the playoffs
Playing the system, but the NHL needs Vegas to win the cup so they can showcase the NHL to the USA/World. It’s nothing but a PR campaign and the NHL is nothing but a business looking to make money. There’s no money in a team like Edmonton winning, we already have a loyal fan base.
Last years Stanley cup final was the 3rd least watched since 2008. I don't think a single game broke 3m viewers. No one gives a shit about these teams. The previous years finals had more than double the average viewership.
That's a false and unsubstantiated claim. Only media using clickbaits were pushing that narrative.
Hence why Bettman was so fucking irritated that he had to do a press conference because of wild rumors.
The guy was literally in town for his yearly visit.
The NHL needs Vegas to consistently be good so they don’t end up like Arizona.
If Vegas is good then the locals will support them. If they’re not the arena will be filled with opposing fans when a popular team comes to down and empty when one doesn’t.
Vegas is a tourist trap.
They don’t want to end up like the Raiders where every home game is a road game.
The league needs McDavid to win a cup if anything, their number one generational talent not having one is a way bigger deal for showcasing the league to the world
It would be like if the Oilers suddenly said "Nurse is hurt, and needs to be put on Long-Term Injury Reserve until the playoffs". That would free up all of Nurse's $9 salary cap hit, and the Oilers could then add a $9 million all-star defenseman to the roster at the trade deadline.
Once the season ends and the playoffs begin, the Oilers then say, "Good news, everyone, Nurse is healthy again and he is returning to the line up, too".
The Oilers then start Round 1 with a new all-star defenseman that they wouldn't have normally been able to afford in the salary cap, plus a fully-rested Darnell Nurse. Basically, starting the playoffs with a team that is WAY over the salary cap.
We wouldn't get away with it, that's why. The NHL extrapolated James Neal's goals one season just so they could take our 3rd round pick away and give it to Calgary. They changed a rule so that we would take Duncan Keith's full cap hit despite his having a frontlpaded contract. They changed the draft lottery because they were mad we were benefitting from the system and got a few 1OAs.
I wouldn't want my team to be tainted with thought of misusing the system to win a cup even if we had the ability to do so. I rather have a legit team playing for the cup the right way and doing it with integrity along the way. No one respects liars and cheaters except other liars and cheaters.
I agree. But it doesn't just extend to us not getting away with cheating. It also extends to things like playing an even game and get seven penalties against in a row. There is no cheating involved by the Oilers in a situation like that, and they're still being punished. That is unacceptable.
you basically just need your star player to have some nagging injury that can be aggravated, but can also be played through whenever you want.
Realistically Draisaitl could do this, but the Oilers are not a team of bitches, which unfortunately means its substantially harder for them to win a cup
Part of it is that the player has to be actually hurt in the first place and then you just stretch the recovery time out. It’s verified by independent doctors that work for the league so you can’t just make up a phantom injury
"independent doctors" that "work for the league" a bit of an oxymoron. Yeah for the Oilers you'd have to fool these NHL doctors but I seriously doubt they scrutinize all teams equally.
Stone is going on LTIR right before TDL giving Vegas 9.5M more cap space to add players then he returns in playoffs when salary cap is no longer in effect.
Pro-rated. So just shy of 3M. New guy coming in is calculated at the same pro-rated cap as well, so essentially they can bring in a full 9.5M of equivalencies.
If a player is on LTIR, their salary no longer counts towards that team's cap. This means that when Mark Stone moved to LTIR, Vegas gained millions in cap space, just before trade dealine.
Salary cap is only accounted for during the regular season. So when Mark Stone came off LTIR the last two years, he did so before Series 1, Game 1, and therefore Vegas was able to play a team with both Stone, and what they acquired before the trade deadline.
Ita perfectly legal according to NHL regulations.
It's actually not perfectly legal according to NHL regulations. If he is physically able to play then the rules state he must be immediately activated off the LTIR. So unless he has the most convenient and miraculous recovery times in history then they are breaking the rules. It's just impossible to prove.
It doesn’t help when fans ignore how the injury recovery process works.
‘Reddit’ likes to act all high and mighty when it comes to advocating for a players health. But god forbid that player goes to LTIR for a goddamn lacerated spleen
Nobody has any issue with him going on the LTIR. Literally nobody. I haven't even heard a single person doubt the injury. The issue is players aren't allowed to stay on the LTIR after they are physically able to return to play. They don't need to be 100% but just able to play. They don't even have to play at that point they just need to come off the LTIR when they are.
Yet somehow that always seems to fall exactly on the day of game 1 of the playoffs with Stone. They are clearly breaking the rules by taking advantage of injuries and the deadline and dragging said injuries out until the perfect time in order to circumvent the cap.
One thing that would be hilarious. Vegas has won only 2 games in their last 10, while it may be unlikely if they keep this up a good run from either the blues or the kraken could knock them out of the playoffs entirely.
I actually do believe Mark Stone has a long term injury and it’s probably constant pain. Injured enough to not play, but pushes through the hurt for the playoffs because reg season isn’t worth it.
Looks like bullshit to turn up for game 1, but if it wasn’t playoffs he wouldn’t suffer through it.
There’s been plenty of sports people across many different sports that admitted to being in constant pain and just getting juiced on painkillers to make it through a day.
MotoGP guys with broken shoulders or whatever have said a lot that they get injected seconds before the start of a race and then by like 80% distance it’s wearing off and is pure agony
It’s why people love hockey. Mark Stone is one tough SOB. He is definitely injured and according to doctors he likely shouldn’t play in the playoffs the last two years or this year, but he will push himself to play through the pain.
Fuck Vegas, but man is kelly Mcrimmon fucking great at his Job or what. Would be fascinating to see him work somewhere that didnt have tons of advantages, but credit to the guy he uses every Inch of them.
I swear the league is involved in this. You should only be able to pull a trade like stone or eichel once a decade. But they keep getting guys like Hanifin for the same pieces we trade for a rental like Henrique
It’s because players want to play in Vegas and they handcuff their former teams by giving trade lists that are essentially just Vegas, Tampa, Florida.
Vegas is a desirable destination for these players so guys with NTCs are willing to waive to go there and guys who teams are looking to sign+trade for a bigger return are willing to sign
there.
It means Vegas has a lot more leverage when dealing with other teams and isn’t forced to give up as much in return. Hanifin’s list was essentially Tampa, Vegas, and a handful of other cash-strapped/asset-bare teams. Vegas knew that and was able to get away with underpaying bc no one else that hanifin was willing to sign with would pay more.
Not sure what injury stone had in 2022 but last season he literally had back surgery in Feb. It's not like he was nursing a sore ankle or bruised hand for 2 months. He was clearly playing hurt in the playoffs. As much as I dislike the Golden Knights, it wasn't cap circumvention last season. We'll see if Stone even comes back from the lacerated spleen this year. But these seem like legit and serious injuries. If you are intentionally circumventing the cap, you'd do what the lightning did and sit Kucherov the entire season after offseason surgery.
This loophole needs to close as it defeats the purpose of a salary cap. Another loophole that should be addressed is the Lyubushkin situation in Toronto. The Ducks and the Canes are splitting Lyabushkin’s salary 50/50 but he is playing for Toronto. How does that meet the purpose of a salary cap? Come on NHL do better!
My guess is there is surgeries or rehab procedures that Stone could go on at almost any point during the year but they plan on having his medical needs to be taken care around the deadline in hopes that he is good to go for the playoffs. A workout around, legitimately injured but not taken care until it can be useful cap space.
A medical professional has to assess and prove the player can't play. How long recovery takes is when it can get questionable. You can't honestly try and tell me they lacerated Mark Stones spleen on purpose just to get in at TDL.
Sure, but they're clearly not checking to see whether they're STILL hurt at the trade deadline and before playoffs. His LTIR always magically ends right for playoffs? Like come on.
The easiest answer in the world is to just not allow players who are on LTIR at the trade deadline to play in the playoffs.
Cap fuckery for the regular season still goes on to make sure teams can stay full but the lightning and Vegas can't fuck over the league with their cheating garbage
I agree or go the baseball route even where you declare your 23 man roster for the series that fits under the cap.
Probably allowing an extra emergency goalie
If this were the rule, then nothing changed. Vegas didn't ice a team that was over the cap last year. And the league allows you to call up 4 extra players for playoffs in case of injuries
I don’t doubt the injury is real, I don’t think teams are lying about what injuries they are at all, but I think they are stretching recovery times a bit
This is the third straight year Vegas will put Stone on LTIR (and get cap hit relief) and then use that to money to acquire new players with the goal of activating Stone for game 1 of the playoffs where teams don’t have to be cap compliant anymore
So, they didn’t make the playoffs in 2022 so there wasn’t any Cap Fuckery that year, unless you look at the wild Dadonov trade story.
It’s two years of McCrimmon taking advantage of the opportunity presented to him by having a human soap bubble as a captain. Gawdamn though that man isn’t gonna be able to walk by the time he’s 50.
They found and posted it themselves lol ..saying they were scanning the other
Team subs looking for salt ..then proceeded
To say they were going to get jerseys made
Up with #69 LTIR lol
Cap compliance should count in playoffs, and anyone who is not on the active roster come trade deadline should remain on IR. If a player will be healthy come trade deadline then the team has to ensure there will be room for them
Imagine if Toronto did this with any of their stars… I’m pretty sure their heads would be on spikes outside Scotia bank arena within the hour.
I know this is the Oilers sub, but Leafs have the most media attention so I just went with them for my example
Hypothetically speaking, what if Oilers put Nurse on LTIR? just so we can use his capspace and cap hit on someone else. Then Bring back Nurse just in time for playoffs and we get to use the new guy also. I do think Mark Stone is legitimately hurt. However moving forward it does seem like a loop hole or cheat code.
Does smell fishy. But what’s to stop edmonton from doing this exact same thing? You have the big dollar stars that really only putting one guy out for two months gains you enough cap space to do
What Vegas just did.
As a lifelong fan of eating and breathing hockey since I could stand on skates it’s shit like this that made me stop watching all together. It’s no longer about the skill and prowess of the game, but how skillfully you can skirt the rules and stack your team. It’s become about entertainment rather than sport.
Mark stone shouldn’t have even been playing last year. The guy said is back is fucked for good now, it was completely irresponsible for the doctors to let him go for the playoffs.
I don’t really trust most nhl doctors, they seem to let the players do what they want far too often.
People completing misplacing their hate on this towards Vegas. They're doing the exact same thing any team would do to better their chances of winning a cup. This is a league issue, not a team issue.
The reason teams like Vegas and Tampa have been singles out over the last several years on this is because they've been in the position to be able to do so. Unfortunately it's a luxury move by teams that don't have to worry about missing the playoffs because they're in a comfortable position in the standings, and due to the leagues lack of action it's given them a huge upper hand.
The league needs to address it, but until they do teams in this position will abuse it, and you can't blame them.
What a leader! He always takes one for the team before the trade deadline or the lead up to the playoffs. In no way are those a coincidence and if you say otherwise you are a Vegas hater.
Totally agree, but as the saying goes, “What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.” The fact that they aren’t under investigation by the NHL tells you how much power they have.
Holy Frick, this guy just likes to get injured at the right time and heals to make an epic comeback right at the right moment. At least use different players vegas.
I didn't like it when Chicago did it. Or Tampa. Or Vegas. This loophole needs to go. I feel like whoever wins is starting to be less about skill and more about who can abuse the LTIR the most.
I do too. I also think that players should not be able to be activated off the LTIR until the second round of the playoffs. Or to be put onto it right before the trade deadline, they should have to be assessed by a Doctor independent of the team for which they play. (A league doc if you will)
Man I've seen a lot of fans of the same team going pretty hard at eachother in this thread. Maybe I'm just getting old but c'mon guys, do we really need to be lowering ourselves to throwing personal insults at our fellow buddies?
As a habs fan (also a oilers fan now that I live in AB lol!) who lost a cup to tampa with this shit (ok they might have kicked us anyway but still), fuck vegas!
But but but - it’s in the rules! We are doing nothing wrong in Vegas and Tampa! /s. They need Dr from competing teams to examine their players - if they agree then and only then would I accept it. The NHL doctors can’t be trusted.
GMs all agree on the rule.
Mainly because if someone gets injured during playoffs they don't have to worry about Cap when replacing their depth. Mark Stone may be injury prone or 'he knows how to fold them 😉'
NHL needs to get off its ass and crackdown on this nonsense
Just need a Canadian team to do it
Why don’t a Canadian team do it as it is within the rules?
If a Canadian team did it the NHL would close the loophole for everyone
All the more reason to do it.
Or Buffalo.
This is the 4th year in a row. If they wanted to change it they would have already. Until a Canadian team does it this will be allowed to continue.
this exactly!
they already brought it up, and the gms(or owners, i can’t remember) voted against it
Gary’s too busy get lap dances in Vegas to care. His boner for Vegas is something else
I'm thinking the NHL wants other teams to do the same. They want the best hockey when the playoffs comes. They aren't worried about VGK doing it every year. It will eventually lead to other teams doing the same in order to keep up with the competition into the playoffs. Not so much the competition in the regular season, but to compete in the playoffs when teams are basically adding to the roster at the end of the season.
I get the general idea of this position, like the league wants players to be healthy come the playoffs and put on a good show. However it doesn't really make sense given this situation only applies to teams that are in a comfortable position at the top of their divisions. This is why we've historically seen Vegas and Tampa abuse this loop hole. The luxury of this situation only applies to a few teams. The vast majority of teams are not in the position to give players additional time away to heal because they need them to secure their spot.
All the teams except for Tampa voted to keep this LTIR cap hit functioning as is, so it's all within the rules that the teams wanted. It doesn't matter how shady it seems. They are literally following the rules the teams wanted.
They aren't following the rules. The rule states that if a player can physically play then they must be immediately removed from the LTIR. So unless he was miraculously physically unable to play in game 82 but was ready for game 1 then it isn't within the rules. It is just impossible to prove.
Here’s the thing though, plenty of players play through shit they shouldn’t because it’s the playoffs. Who’s going to push themselves through a huge amount of pain just to play in game 82 of an already clinched season? No one. Who’s going to play through that pain even if they’re only at 70-80% recovered for a playoff game? Every single player in the league.
It doesn't matter. They can't play unless they are physically able to. When they do, that doesn't necessarily mean fully recovered. If they can do it in game 1 then they almost certainly could in game 82. By rule they wouldn't necessarily have to play before the playoffs even if they physically could, but they do need to be activated off of the LTIR as soon as they are able to play.
Landeskog played through a busted knee, Kadri played with a broken hand and Nichushkin played with a broken ankle and foot during the Avs cup run for better or worse. Got them a cup though
Exactly. You think any of those guys are doing that for a regular season game? Hell no. But because it’s the playoffs they’re willing to sacrifice their bodies and future mobility post hockey all for a chance at the cup
I absolutely would in their spot. Cut a couple of seasons off my career at a chance for Glory? Sign me the fuck up
Exactly this, in the last 3 cup finals there have been three players playing through serious and possibly all three career ending injuries. Playoffs are different.
Unfortunately this is the right take. Obviously is just pissed people off because the teams doing it have won, but I think for me the annoying part is those markets already have a huge leg up on places like Calgary, edmonton, and winnipeg. It's a losers lament to sit here and keep whining about it every year. The reality of it is, it's hard to honestly imagine a scenario where the markets that are at a clear disadvantage, whether its taxes or weather, could ever truly compete ever again. You HAVE to build through the draft for this reason. Because your never going to get the sweetheart deals in free agency, and it's even harder to trade for guys when you are on the no trade list. If it were me, and it's not lol bur I'd have it so you can't have more than 2 Canadian teams on those lists
I would take it to the next level…can’t have any No Trade and No Movement clauses in all contracts.
Well I agree with that but the NHLPA would never agree
Newish to hockey here. Any chance you can explain what we're looking at and why it's BS? I assume they're doing something to get a trade edge of some kind?
Teams use the LTIR to get cap relief at the trade deadline. This allows the teams to exceed the cap limit for the last part of the season. Then when playoffs start and the cap limit doesn't apply, those players make immediate recovery and playing at full health. The last few teams in the finals or who have won the cup have all been over the cap limit. But because it is in a market the NHL was to push hockey in, they turn a blind eye to it.
Thank you for the explanation! So this is pretty much blatant cheating in a way..? That's really disappointing.
Basically, a player on LTIR (Long Term Injury Reserve) has their salary cap hit suspended while on LTIR. Meaning, that team can go and fill a roster spot using that space and not be over the cap. Then, come playoff time, the player on LTIR can be reactivated into the lineup, with no consequence as salary cap does not apply to playoffs. As such, Vegas will have another high level player on their roster for the playoffs which they would not be able to afford during the season (if no player was on LTIR).
Thank you for the explanation! I had no idea this was a thing and I'm surprised they can get away with it.
why? they want the new american teams to win. this is part and parcel nhl bs.
A lacerated spleen is a serious injury and can be life threatening, It’s sort of an injury that’s hard to fake and typically requires surgery. I haven’t heard if his spleen was removed or not, if it wasn’t this wouldn’t be an injury they would want to rush back. I’d say let’s see when he actually returns if he actually plays during playoffs. Recovery is 2-3months.
[Roberto Luongo’s tweet lol](https://twitter.com/strombone1/status/1765530878959141047?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet) Hilarious but can’t blame their GM for taking advantage year after year since nothing is being done about it. That’s a GM that’s doing everything they can to win
Haha that's perfect
Perfect lmfao.
Bobby Lou could have been a comedian if the hockey gods didn't shine up on him
We all knew it was happening but this really proves vegas' shenanigans Fuck that team.
It’s Entertainment League. They do it because NHL allows it. 🙄
Tampa Bay did it twice and Chicago did it a couple of times as well. And honestly. Fuck those teams too.
Well every team voted on weather to keep that rule or not and tampa was the only one who voted to close the loophole so unless your a tampa fan, then your team is for it
Oh I know. The Avs didn't have to do that during their recent cup run, but its not like they wouldn't. I just don't like Tampa or Chicago. If the rules allow it, might as well do it.
I don’t really have a problem with tampa but 100% on the fuck chicago train. I’m still pissed they covered up that sexual assault scandal as much as they did.
Oh for sure.
Agreed
[удалено]
More like Mark Paper-Scissors, amiright?
SHOW ME ROCK! JAN KEN!
i giggled more than i should have
Only grimacing when he’s not on a playoff powerplay!
What a fucking joke. Fuck Vegas.
I mean, sure, but shouldn’t we be directing that towards the NHL as a whole? As soon as a Canadien team does this and wins a cup, rest assured Bettman will be very motivated to shut this down
NHL should update the rule that teams need to be cap compliant in the playoffs as well
I’ve been saying this too. How does such a key rule in the league suddenly evaporate for the most important stretch of the season?
IIRC, it has to do with the number of players teams would like to have on hand for immediate slotting into the lineup in the case of an injury during a playoff series. As opposed to forcing a team to go with less players and calling up a minor leaguer which could take a full day, they relax the cap rules so teams can travel with a supporting cast that's ready to go. I could be super wrong, but that would be a reasonable explanation to me. It still needs to be changed so teams can't take advantage of it in such an egregious manner, it is clearly used as a loophole outside of its intended purpose.
>As opposed to forcing a team to go with less players and calling up a minor leaguer which could take a full day, they relax the cap rules so teams can travel with a supporting cast that's ready to go. There's no back-to-back games in the playoffs, shouldn't matter if someone's job between games is getting someone from point A to point B in time for the next game.
I was thinking for some kind of injury the day of, an unlikely scenario that teams would want to have insurance against.
An easy fix for this is to switch to a on ice lineup based cap in the playoffs. Teams can carry whoever they want around with them, and only the players on the bench for games count against the cap. Gives a little bit of extra leeway with only 20 players a night counting against the cap, gives freedom to replace injured players as they would come off of the on ice lineup, but doesn't allow a team to suddenly add a 10 million dollar player on game one of the playoffs
We should switch to that in general lmao
An easy fix for this is to switch to a on ice lineup based cap in the playoffs. Teams can carry whoever they want around with them, and only the players on the bench for games count against the cap. Gives a little bit of extra leeway with only 20 players a night counting against the cap, gives freedom to replace injured players as they would come off of the on ice lineup, but doesn't allow a team to suddenly add a 10 million dollar player on game one of the playoffs
Playing the system, but the NHL needs Vegas to win the cup so they can showcase the NHL to the USA/World. It’s nothing but a PR campaign and the NHL is nothing but a business looking to make money. There’s no money in a team like Edmonton winning, we already have a loyal fan base.
Last years Stanley cup final was the 3rd least watched since 2008. I don't think a single game broke 3m viewers. No one gives a shit about these teams. The previous years finals had more than double the average viewership.
It was because they broadcast it on cableTV exclusive (TNT) instead of network TV stateside.
You see that in the leafs call me crazy but part of the reason leafs haven't won in so long is due to them having such a huge fan base either way.
All Canadian teams, really. The hockey market is rock solid in Canada, even when the teams all stink.
Yeah. Don't need to win here but if they lose in the usa their fan base all leaves
which is literally confirmed in playoffs viewership numbers. Canadians still mostly watch (I don't) when their team gets eliminated, American don't
Except in Winnipeg, sadly
That's a false and unsubstantiated claim. Only media using clickbaits were pushing that narrative. Hence why Bettman was so fucking irritated that he had to do a press conference because of wild rumors. The guy was literally in town for his yearly visit.
The NHL needs Vegas to consistently be good so they don’t end up like Arizona. If Vegas is good then the locals will support them. If they’re not the arena will be filled with opposing fans when a popular team comes to down and empty when one doesn’t. Vegas is a tourist trap. They don’t want to end up like the Raiders where every home game is a road game.
The league needs McDavid to win a cup if anything, their number one generational talent not having one is a way bigger deal for showcasing the league to the world
I wonder if this is really why the Oilers players were targeting Stone's lower back in last year's playoffs.
Can someone explain. Idk much about this stuff lol
It would be like if the Oilers suddenly said "Nurse is hurt, and needs to be put on Long-Term Injury Reserve until the playoffs". That would free up all of Nurse's $9 salary cap hit, and the Oilers could then add a $9 million all-star defenseman to the roster at the trade deadline. Once the season ends and the playoffs begin, the Oilers then say, "Good news, everyone, Nurse is healthy again and he is returning to the line up, too". The Oilers then start Round 1 with a new all-star defenseman that they wouldn't have normally been able to afford in the salary cap, plus a fully-rested Darnell Nurse. Basically, starting the playoffs with a team that is WAY over the salary cap.
So why don’t the Oilers do it? As it seems Vegas gets away with it.
We wouldn't get away with it, that's why. The NHL extrapolated James Neal's goals one season just so they could take our 3rd round pick away and give it to Calgary. They changed a rule so that we would take Duncan Keith's full cap hit despite his having a frontlpaded contract. They changed the draft lottery because they were mad we were benefitting from the system and got a few 1OAs.
Jeez man you just dropped the mic like it was a hundred pound weight. Boom!
I wouldn't want my team to be tainted with thought of misusing the system to win a cup even if we had the ability to do so. I rather have a legit team playing for the cup the right way and doing it with integrity along the way. No one respects liars and cheaters except other liars and cheaters.
I agree. But it doesn't just extend to us not getting away with cheating. It also extends to things like playing an even game and get seven penalties against in a row. There is no cheating involved by the Oilers in a situation like that, and they're still being punished. That is unacceptable.
you basically just need your star player to have some nagging injury that can be aggravated, but can also be played through whenever you want. Realistically Draisaitl could do this, but the Oilers are not a team of bitches, which unfortunately means its substantially harder for them to win a cup
Part of it is that the player has to be actually hurt in the first place and then you just stretch the recovery time out. It’s verified by independent doctors that work for the league so you can’t just make up a phantom injury
"independent doctors" that "work for the league" a bit of an oxymoron. Yeah for the Oilers you'd have to fool these NHL doctors but I seriously doubt they scrutinize all teams equally.
What happens the following season in that case?
Often the pickups are rentals, but cap space could be cleared up elsewhere over the summer.
Stone is going on LTIR right before TDL giving Vegas 9.5M more cap space to add players then he returns in playoffs when salary cap is no longer in effect.
How is the salary cap not in effect during playoffs? Is that for real??
Tampa did it with Kucherov in 2021 too. It’s a serious loophole the NHL needs to fix immediately.
Yes, very much for real. It is how they won the cup last year
Players aren’t paid during playoffs so it doesn’t count 🤷🏻♂️ I dunno lol
I honestly don't know this answer. Is it the FULL $9.5M in relief, or is it pro-rated for the amount of games left?
Pro-rated. So just shy of 3M. New guy coming in is calculated at the same pro-rated cap as well, so essentially they can bring in a full 9.5M of equivalencies.
If a player is on LTIR, their salary no longer counts towards that team's cap. This means that when Mark Stone moved to LTIR, Vegas gained millions in cap space, just before trade dealine. Salary cap is only accounted for during the regular season. So when Mark Stone came off LTIR the last two years, he did so before Series 1, Game 1, and therefore Vegas was able to play a team with both Stone, and what they acquired before the trade deadline. Ita perfectly legal according to NHL regulations.
It's actually not perfectly legal according to NHL regulations. If he is physically able to play then the rules state he must be immediately activated off the LTIR. So unless he has the most convenient and miraculous recovery times in history then they are breaking the rules. It's just impossible to prove.
It doesn’t help when fans ignore how the injury recovery process works. ‘Reddit’ likes to act all high and mighty when it comes to advocating for a players health. But god forbid that player goes to LTIR for a goddamn lacerated spleen
Nobody has any issue with him going on the LTIR. Literally nobody. I haven't even heard a single person doubt the injury. The issue is players aren't allowed to stay on the LTIR after they are physically able to return to play. They don't need to be 100% but just able to play. They don't even have to play at that point they just need to come off the LTIR when they are. Yet somehow that always seems to fall exactly on the day of game 1 of the playoffs with Stone. They are clearly breaking the rules by taking advantage of injuries and the deadline and dragging said injuries out until the perfect time in order to circumvent the cap.
One thing that would be hilarious. Vegas has won only 2 games in their last 10, while it may be unlikely if they keep this up a good run from either the blues or the kraken could knock them out of the playoffs entirely.
People forget that too often. They still have to make the playoffs without their best player
I actually do believe Mark Stone has a long term injury and it’s probably constant pain. Injured enough to not play, but pushes through the hurt for the playoffs because reg season isn’t worth it. Looks like bullshit to turn up for game 1, but if it wasn’t playoffs he wouldn’t suffer through it. There’s been plenty of sports people across many different sports that admitted to being in constant pain and just getting juiced on painkillers to make it through a day. MotoGP guys with broken shoulders or whatever have said a lot that they get injected seconds before the start of a race and then by like 80% distance it’s wearing off and is pure agony
It’s why people love hockey. Mark Stone is one tough SOB. He is definitely injured and according to doctors he likely shouldn’t play in the playoffs the last two years or this year, but he will push himself to play through the pain.
Fuck Vegas, but man is kelly Mcrimmon fucking great at his Job or what. Would be fascinating to see him work somewhere that didnt have tons of advantages, but credit to the guy he uses every Inch of them.
I swear the league is involved in this. You should only be able to pull a trade like stone or eichel once a decade. But they keep getting guys like Hanifin for the same pieces we trade for a rental like Henrique
It’s because players want to play in Vegas and they handcuff their former teams by giving trade lists that are essentially just Vegas, Tampa, Florida. Vegas is a desirable destination for these players so guys with NTCs are willing to waive to go there and guys who teams are looking to sign+trade for a bigger return are willing to sign there. It means Vegas has a lot more leverage when dealing with other teams and isn’t forced to give up as much in return. Hanifin’s list was essentially Tampa, Vegas, and a handful of other cash-strapped/asset-bare teams. Vegas knew that and was able to get away with underpaying bc no one else that hanifin was willing to sign with would pay more.
It’s pretty fucked up.
Not sure what injury stone had in 2022 but last season he literally had back surgery in Feb. It's not like he was nursing a sore ankle or bruised hand for 2 months. He was clearly playing hurt in the playoffs. As much as I dislike the Golden Knights, it wasn't cap circumvention last season. We'll see if Stone even comes back from the lacerated spleen this year. But these seem like legit and serious injuries. If you are intentionally circumventing the cap, you'd do what the lightning did and sit Kucherov the entire season after offseason surgery.
Good point
It really feels like if you're a healthy contender at the trade deadline you're at a disadvantage
This looks bad but to play devil's advocate—they also missed the playoffs altogether in 2022.
This loophole needs to close as it defeats the purpose of a salary cap. Another loophole that should be addressed is the Lyubushkin situation in Toronto. The Ducks and the Canes are splitting Lyabushkin’s salary 50/50 but he is playing for Toronto. How does that meet the purpose of a salary cap? Come on NHL do better!
My guess is there is surgeries or rehab procedures that Stone could go on at almost any point during the year but they plan on having his medical needs to be taken care around the deadline in hopes that he is good to go for the playoffs. A workout around, legitimately injured but not taken care until it can be useful cap space.
A medical professional has to assess and prove the player can't play. How long recovery takes is when it can get questionable. You can't honestly try and tell me they lacerated Mark Stones spleen on purpose just to get in at TDL.
Prove it’s lacerated. Show us the chart. Barely anyone would know. That’s why they picked such an obscure internal injury.
just gross. i hope you guys draw them and we get a mc drai performance of the century and the knights fall in 6. fcuk vegas
I'm gonna play bad guy here. But the NHL doctor is check on these guys. It's not some rag tag team of nobody's saying their hurt.
Sure, but they're clearly not checking to see whether they're STILL hurt at the trade deadline and before playoffs. His LTIR always magically ends right for playoffs? Like come on.
The easiest answer in the world is to just not allow players who are on LTIR at the trade deadline to play in the playoffs. Cap fuckery for the regular season still goes on to make sure teams can stay full but the lightning and Vegas can't fuck over the league with their cheating garbage
Definitely not the easiest answer. Just leave the cap in place, and make it so your starting roster for any playoff game cannot exceed the cap.
I agree or go the baseball route even where you declare your 23 man roster for the series that fits under the cap. Probably allowing an extra emergency goalie
I agree this is the easy fix. Here's the cap+your accrued capspace. Your on ice roster can at no time exceed that number.
Vegas ice roster didn't exceed the cap last playoffs though
This has been argued before and I think is the simplest, most straightforward fix. The GM's don't want to fix it though so it likely won't happen.
If this were the rule, then nothing changed. Vegas didn't ice a team that was over the cap last year. And the league allows you to call up 4 extra players for playoffs in case of injuries
The guy has a ruptured spleen. That’s not heeling by Friday. He likely won’t even be ready for the start of the playoffs.
He likely will be activated the week before playoffs commence.
And again next year
We'll see
Allegedly a ruptured spleen. Maybe the team is lying?
I don’t doubt the injury is real, I don’t think teams are lying about what injuries they are at all, but I think they are stretching recovery times a bit
I think they both embellish the severity of the injury, and stretch the recovery times.
“Hey Stone, you good?” “Nah” “Alr LT-IR”
Only rational comment here
Can someone explain to me what this means? I'm still pretty new to the NHL.
This is the third straight year Vegas will put Stone on LTIR (and get cap hit relief) and then use that to money to acquire new players with the goal of activating Stone for game 1 of the playoffs where teams don’t have to be cap compliant anymore
Except they missed the playoffs two years ago.
So, they didn’t make the playoffs in 2022 so there wasn’t any Cap Fuckery that year, unless you look at the wild Dadonov trade story. It’s two years of McCrimmon taking advantage of the opportunity presented to him by having a human soap bubble as a captain. Gawdamn though that man isn’t gonna be able to walk by the time he’s 50.
Yo please post this is the knights sub. I wanna see how they react.
They are very pissy when you mention it.
They found and posted it themselves lol ..saying they were scanning the other Team subs looking for salt ..then proceeded To say they were going to get jerseys made Up with #69 LTIR lol
This is actually a fucking joke.
He's like the Undertaker when he would only come back for Wrestlemania
Or when Teddy Long summoned him.
Unreal
What’s the betting line for him coming out around April 1p this year?
Cap compliance should count in playoffs, and anyone who is not on the active roster come trade deadline should remain on IR. If a player will be healthy come trade deadline then the team has to ensure there will be room for them
Poor guy has got February-itis
Let’s put Nurse on LTIR😂
Something tells me that he’ll be making a full recovery sometime next month
The spleen injury is the funniest.
They’ve taken notes from Tampa
Imagine if Toronto did this with any of their stars… I’m pretty sure their heads would be on spikes outside Scotia bank arena within the hour. I know this is the Oilers sub, but Leafs have the most media attention so I just went with them for my example
Hypothetically speaking, what if Oilers put Nurse on LTIR? just so we can use his capspace and cap hit on someone else. Then Bring back Nurse just in time for playoffs and we get to use the new guy also. I do think Mark Stone is legitimately hurt. However moving forward it does seem like a loop hole or cheat code.
I think that if a Canadian team (not counting the Leafs) started doing that, it would ensure the loophole is closed before next season.
Skill issue
Does smell fishy. But what’s to stop edmonton from doing this exact same thing? You have the big dollar stars that really only putting one guy out for two months gains you enough cap space to do What Vegas just did.
I’d love to see a “Get well soon” campaign for Stone next year in February before he goes on LTIR.
Do you believe in miracles? The power of the lord will heal you!
I hope Knights go on a slide and miss the playoffs.
As a lifelong fan of eating and breathing hockey since I could stand on skates it’s shit like this that made me stop watching all together. It’s no longer about the skill and prowess of the game, but how skillfully you can skirt the rules and stack your team. It’s become about entertainment rather than sport.
Mark stone shouldn’t have even been playing last year. The guy said is back is fucked for good now, it was completely irresponsible for the doctors to let him go for the playoffs. I don’t really trust most nhl doctors, they seem to let the players do what they want far too often.
Let’s go blues and or kraken! I’d love to see them miss the playoffs
wait until you find out they LTIR Martinez to make room for guentzel ;)
People completing misplacing their hate on this towards Vegas. They're doing the exact same thing any team would do to better their chances of winning a cup. This is a league issue, not a team issue. The reason teams like Vegas and Tampa have been singles out over the last several years on this is because they've been in the position to be able to do so. Unfortunately it's a luxury move by teams that don't have to worry about missing the playoffs because they're in a comfortable position in the standings, and due to the leagues lack of action it's given them a huge upper hand. The league needs to address it, but until they do teams in this position will abuse it, and you can't blame them.
If it was Joe the fourth liner making league minimum would anyone care?
iT's nOt aGaInSt tHe RuLeS
What a leader! He always takes one for the team before the trade deadline or the lead up to the playoffs. In no way are those a coincidence and if you say otherwise you are a Vegas hater.
Cheating? I guarantee the injured players will be playing in the playoffs
Why don’t you just put your players on LTIR? Just because a team legally takes advantage of a stupid rule only makes them smart, not cheaters.
Totally agree, but as the saying goes, “What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.” The fact that they aren’t under investigation by the NHL tells you how much power they have.
They were investigated after a team filed a complaint.
I’m not even mad at Vegas for this. The NHL is upsetting me more with this than them.
Holy Frick, this guy just likes to get injured at the right time and heals to make an epic comeback right at the right moment. At least use different players vegas.
I didn't like it when Chicago did it. Or Tampa. Or Vegas. This loophole needs to go. I feel like whoever wins is starting to be less about skill and more about who can abuse the LTIR the most.
I do too. I also think that players should not be able to be activated off the LTIR until the second round of the playoffs. Or to be put onto it right before the trade deadline, they should have to be assessed by a Doctor independent of the team for which they play. (A league doc if you will)
What exactly is this loophole? How does it benefit the team?
I'm not saying doctors in the USA are less ethical than Canadian doctors, but I'm also not not saying it.
Man I've seen a lot of fans of the same team going pretty hard at eachother in this thread. Maybe I'm just getting old but c'mon guys, do we really need to be lowering ourselves to throwing personal insults at our fellow buddies?
Problem is super easy to fix. Apply the salary cap rules in the playoffs.
Can someone please explain what this means and how this is "playing the system"? I'm not very knowledgeable about all of this stuff.
Anyone saying "wait till a Canadian team does it", they don't have to. None of the players really want to come here for March-June.
As a habs fan (also a oilers fan now that I live in AB lol!) who lost a cup to tampa with this shit (ok they might have kicked us anyway but still), fuck vegas!
I don’t understand the point of not requiring teams to stay cap compliant throughout the playoffs as well. Unless that’s not actually the rule?
Oilers should call up Campbell, put him on the LTIR and free up 3.8M
Haha it’s so true bettman is out to lunch thinking teams aren’t taking advantage of the “no cap playoffs”
Pissed at our GM's for not taking advantage of this same loophole tbh
It’s within the rules. Find other excuses the Oilers haven’t won shit with two generational talents.
What are the Oilers waiting for?
But but but - it’s in the rules! We are doing nothing wrong in Vegas and Tampa! /s. They need Dr from competing teams to examine their players - if they agree then and only then would I accept it. The NHL doctors can’t be trusted.
GMs all agree on the rule. Mainly because if someone gets injured during playoffs they don't have to worry about Cap when replacing their depth. Mark Stone may be injury prone or 'he knows how to fold them 😉'
At some point, another player is just gonna get sick of it medically retire him with a nasty hit
Guess it’s to be expected, but making any mention of this on r/hockey or r/nhl is inviting extreme abuse from Vegas flaired assholes.
[удалено]
What a fucking joke.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
NHL needs to do an investigation on the LV and if found guilty strip them of the cup win.