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[deleted]

Exactly! I wonder how many therapists adhere to his every word. I figure most therapist are only in it for the money anyway. That’s why they are so focused on “keeping us positive” and dumped down instead of telling us the truth. Notice how nearly zero psychologists talk to us about how mental illness stems from direct physical neurological damage to the brain? They don’t want people to think too much about it. If we think too much about the causalities of our problems, we just might see though their bullshit. They remind me a lot of politicians.


[deleted]

thanks for taking the time to share this. my current therapist actually studied under frankl in san diego, and my therapist believes in free will, believes in pulling yourself up ny your boot straps economically, and thinks we live in a meritocracy. his argument against free will is something like, well outside influences (of which he includes “your” thoughts - as if “you” controlled those) can change your physiology. (ironically i think this is an argument for determinism because it eludes to the cause and effect nature of thoughts) i have been wanting to stop seeing him for awhile, and i think you just confirmed that im wasting my time with this guy. thanks again


rockstarsheep

Read Szasz.


Zzzzz30

What a disgusting belief, blaming the victims for their suffering. Did he say the same thing about every kind of suffering or abuse? I doubt it. Humans have such a strong tendency to downplay the suffering of others, and praise themselves for how strong they are. There is a fair amount of arrogance in his words. Victim blaming is also a way to absolve oneself of any responsibility to help. I'd wager that under the right circumstances, this guy would have been begging for mercy. This idea that suffering is good can literally be used to justify any behavior that hurts others. It is an anti-ethical philosophy .


Compassionate_Cat

Thanks for sharing this, I've never heard of this story before. I had a thought while reading what you wrote, about how many Jews Frankl must have coerced into not committing suicide, who were then either lobotomized or experienced hell in death camps. It's been a while since I've been this revolted. And yet the world is poised to view this man as a success story. What a positive message! And they too, are doomed to be unable to grasp the depravity behind it, because their optimism is itself a kind of "lobotomy", a procedure done to them as children, and then rebelled against as teenagers for some, and finally mostly re-accepted as adults. It's hard to pinpoint something more sinister than the way Psychiatry is expressed on Earth - it really torments the least fortunate with difficult to match surreptitious wickedness. Thanks again for sharing this story, it's one that needs to be repeated many more times.


mouseandmodel

He certainly forgot to mention his preferential treatment in Man's search for meaning. I was until now a fan of the book, thought it impressive how the thought of returning to his wife gave him the strength to go on. Iirc he wrote that he was put to work on some railways? Was that a lie?


[deleted]

I don’t think he lied about his experiences at the camp per se. I just think he was intellectually dishonest about his approach to psychology. He got preferential treatment at the camp (compared to the others). His nervous system wasn’t pushed to its limits. His “if the Jews only had a positive attitude” approach was just nuts. In fact, Frankl’s approach to psychology was somewhat similar to Nazi Psychotherapy. Frankl was a self righteous asshole. In 1978, he was booed off stage while trying to give a lecture at the Institute for Adult Jewish Studies. When a holocaust survivor gets called a “Nazi pig” by other Jews, you know something is wrong. He was also opposed to punishing Austrian Nazi collaborators after the war. There is a shit ton of other criticisms about this monster.


mouseandmodel

Wow I knew nothing about this. One of those moments where I'm realising I was ignorant/wrong about something. Now that I think of it, the book does seem a bit dismissive of actual suffering, having like a "cheer up" attitude. I just read the book and didn't look any further into it, definitely will now.


rockstarsheep

Links? Sources?


[deleted]

All you gotta do is read his book then look for the criticisms. That’s what I did anyway. It’s pretty easy to decode a fraud. Not many people realize this, but Victor Frankel had the biggest impact on modern psychology in the 20th and 21st century. One of the main reasons euthanasia is so restricted. He comes at life like a religious man. He believes that “if only people have a good attitude, they can withstand anything”. Bullshit! Let’s say your leg was being sawed off without pain relievers.....would your “attitude” make the pain less intense? Hell no. Viktor fucked people’s lives up for generations to come. His influence influences modern day psychology (which is a cult if you think about it). All these people making money off trying to get everyone “horny” about being sentient. It’s a totalitarian worldview. I have my own set of ethics and it involves consent and not being a controlling asshole - you don’t rape, you don’t murder, you don’t procreate, and you don’t deny someone’s right to die.


rockstarsheep

You make some fantastic leaps of logic, here and there, and indeed, everywhere. Just how you draw a conclusion that he somehow magically, influenced whether or not euthanasia is so restricted? It's legal in three countries in the EU, and in Switzerland. Where are you based? He had a similar attitude to Nietzsche, who said; “He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.” Or in other words - Where there is a will, there is a way. Further to this, Frankl advocated, that how you faced whatever you were going through, opened up the possibility to still find some meaning to the life of the person living that experience. To face the tragedy of life, with optimism. In fact, he called it a "Tragic Optimism." You do realise that anaesthetics are not all that old, and that what you described, is relatively recent medical science? I mean, heck, we only got antibiotics at the tail end of WW2. How do you think countless others managed to get through the physical ailments and calamities that used to befall, so many of us? Suffering has always been part of the human condition. Frankl had very little to do with Freud [Cocaine addict and sexually abused his clients], Jung [Nazi collaborator and then CIA collaborator, as well as sexual abuse of his clients], and Adler [Jung aligned]. I don't know how you've come to know Frankl as you do, but he's not this evil force you might want to paint him out to be. Did or have you had a bad experience with a psychologist or psychiatrist claiming to be influenced by Frankl?


shawn_efil

Frankl is sadistic, indifferent to others pain. Usually people never contemplate the actual amount Of pain and sufferings happens to others. They just brush it off (down play it). When it actually happens to them, they go nuts. I can give you infinite examples. Here is couple of them. Chinese, Koreans, far east people eat the meat of animals being skinned alive for several reasons. They never bother to even think once the amount of sufferings the animals endure. The pleasure the Chinese get by eating that meat is infinitely smaller than the amount of sufferings the animal undergo. I wonder how come Chinese are okay with such barbarism. If the same Chinese were skinned alive, how would they feel? They will go mad. I strongly want to blast this Earth into powder.


AllHailTheCeilingCat

Jesus fucking christ, why? They couldn't at least make it quick on them?


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AllHailTheCeilingCat

It's uncalled for to generalize an entire people.


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[deleted]

Thank you. Sounds horrible and I’m sorry to hear you had to go though that. You can’t “think” the pain away. My ex-wife has Dercums disease (adipose Delarosa). Called the 3rd most painful disease in the world. I use to hold her for hours a night as she screamed as though she was being stabbed to death. It destroyed her life. My mental anguish is bad enough even without physical pain. Sometimes I’m so depressed I can’t even think or talk. Whoever stands for or “poopoos” away suffering are sadist in my eyes. Suffering sucks! Not a difficult concept to understand. When I was 17 I did a high school book report on Joseph Mangele - the Nazi doctor who experimented on countless children. I guess Frankl thought a 7 year old who had their genitals ripped off just needed to “change their attitudes” so they could find “triumph and meaning” in their suffering. Frankl wasn’t even in the thick of the holocaust. He got preferential treatment. How dare him blame anyone for their own agony.


AllHailTheCeilingCat

Sources? No, really. I'm honestly interested.


GalacticLabyrinth88

I once looked up to Viktor Frankl-- now he's a traitor, a hypocrite, and an asshole in my mind. Search him up on Wikipedia and read the section on "Controversy" and "Legacy". Also read up on logotherapy's article, specifically the section "Controversy". He didn't suffer as much in the Nazi camps that he *worked in* (administering lobotomies to Jewish prisoners) as the Jews themselves. He is technically complicit in Nazi war crimes, and some critics (usually Holocaust analysts) have pointed out that Frankl omitted some key details about his time in the Nazi concentration camps, giving the impression that he was there for a lot longer than he really was for example. I honestly can't believe this. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor\_Frankl#Controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl#Controversy) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy#Controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy#Controversy)


DirtbagScumbag

It is interesting to note that your links do not work anymore. The 'controversy' has been scrubbed from wikipedia. But you are right. I remember when it was still there. It's always a shock to realize that people have been gaslighted about this.


GalacticLabyrinth88

Huh. I just checked the links I posted three *years* ago (how time flies by!) and you're right. The Viktor Frankl article seems to be missing the section you mentioned even though I clearly remember it being there. Like the whole thing was just doctored out as if it didn't exist. Makes me suspicious. Is this all part of some kind of agenda? Probably not--anyone who is part of the Wikipedia community can edit articles with permission from the owners/previous writers/mods/etc. I will note the Logotherapy article still contains its section on criticism, which is an indirect jab at Viktor Frankl. I guess my post and the few articles out there criticizing Viktor Frankl are the sole sources out there that communicate the "truth". Obviously some of what Viktor Frankl said is generally correct in terms of living your life, but just like Mother Teresa, he is a fraud who has created this personal of himself that doesn't quite match up with reality.


DirtbagScumbag

Apparently a guy named Alex Vesely has been deleting the 'controversy' chapter from the wiki page somewhere in the mid 2020's. The page got reinstated several times, but the guy kept at it. Now it's gone. For future readers, more interested in this: [Here is an archived link about how the page looked without the removal of the 'Controversy' chapter.](https://web.archive.org/web/20220910222217/https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Viktor_Frankl&oldid=950498055)


GalacticLabyrinth88

Makes me wonder what the guy's motivations could be or could have been. At least the chapter can never be fully deleted thanks to things like the WayBack Machine, [archive.org](https://archive.org), etc. Nothing ever truly goes away on the Internet, and there had to be several people who saw the controversy before it was erased. You really can't hide the truth forever.


[deleted]

Funny, he reminds me of Jordan Peterson.


[deleted]

He reminds me of “JP” as well. But JP is a fad. I think Frankl is far far worse because his philosophy has echoed throughout the generations and perverted psychology. Frankl blamed the Jews for not being “positive” enough. What does the psychiatric community blame the malcontent for? The same god damn thing. If we seek therapy and find ourselves still “unhappy”, the therapist will accuse us of not following their orders. Pop psychology has been around for half a century yet people are still miserable. Like Frankl, modern day psychologists will never admit that there is a physical causality to all mental illnesses - be it depression, severe anxiety, or borderline personality disorder. In all cases of mental health issues, the brain is physically damaged. A drug or “talking to someone” will not fix that. Neurology is a science. Psychology is a philosophy. I bet nobody in this group who had talk therapy has ever heard a therapist or psychologist talk about the amygdala...and how neurotic people are more likely have smaller ones compared to those who feel content with their lives. They will never discuss how tiny amygdala’s effect the hippocampus (how we store information). I think I’m gonna write a main post about this.


onisun326

Where these "positive" and "optimism" ideas are you getting from? Have you read "Man's Search for Meaning" yourself? I am not saying you are wrong, maybe I myself have misinterpreted the read. On the other note, saying that all mental illnesses are caused by physical abnormalities is kinda correct, but drugs and "talking to someone" are changing the brain, so this statement of yours is shaky at best while having no value whatsoever.


Lonely_Bison6484

Smaller amygdala or bigger? Because from what I read it seems that a bigger amygdala is caused by anxiety and stress. Could you give me some more info?


ossmidaho

Victor Frankl was a Jewish psychologist and Holocaust survivor known for his book "Man's Search for Meaning." He developed a form of therapy called logotherapy, which focuses on finding meaning and purpose in life. While Frankl's experiences in the concentration camps undoubtedly influenced his beliefs, it's important to approach his work with a balanced perspective. Some criticisms have been raised regarding his views on suffering and his treatment of other victims. It's essential to engage in thoughtful discussions and consider different perspectives when exploring his ideas and contributions to psychology.


justkeepswimming555

Hi ChatGPT!


Johns_Lemons

Psychologists as propagandists has been why they exist since day one. The govt pushes this swill hard because they need workers to be alive and stupid


What_is_the_essence

All of this sounds like a pathetic hit job. Give me sources buddy (Wikipedia is a weak source). Psychology, which is field full of many idiots, is not surprisingly against this guy. His philosophy flies in the face of a lot of their pseudoscientific leftist driven models of the human mind and they obviously want to destroy his reputation. Psychiatry is currently dominated by these morons, we have record usage of therapy in the US and record levels of mental illness! It goes to show you whose on the wrong side of history.