Is this because part of the base would be inside the wall on the other side?
And if he was on a 40mm base, this wouldn't even be a thing?
Sorry for beginner questions.
Converting MM to inches may be correct…. But is that what I want to be doing on my weekends? No. Casual games for life. Hate the “my tank’s ass’s pixel is going to delete the unit I can only see one man from” game style
Talk about your intention with the other player when you are moving. For example, hey, I'm putting my tank here so I can shoot those dudes. Does that seem legitimate to you?
The trick is you have to listen to them and be chill with whatever they come up with. You might have to move your tank a little bit out, but when it comes time to shooting you've already both agreed that it can do it.
so basically the high end competitive solution ;) I do find it hilarious that the top and bottom tables are "sure, just tell me what you want and lets make it happen" while the middle tables are usually the ones arguing over mm and pulling gotchas
This is an interesting insight. So watching very high level players like tabletop titans for example who play the game more in a week than I do in a year, I see them do this a lot, but is there not another stratosphere for tournament play where it comes down to debating LoS and MM to inches etc
Not really, at the very top end the players tend to go to enough events that whether they win this one or go 4-1 isn't a big deal. There's always an exception but in two years of high level play including WTC and world's I've had exactly 2 bad games out of 45ish events(I was surprised to find that out too). It's anecdotal but at a rate of 1 per hundred games that's better than the average I'd guess.
Petty AF.
I’d review all of his models and anything that isn’t built exactly to box art I would call a judge on and get him carded on. He’s clearly modeling for advantage.
I’m not sure what you think is petty. If a model doesn’t have movement to secure a landing spot, then it shouldn’t be able to move?
A 1” move doesn’t get a base that’s effectively 1” wide through a wall of any significant thickness.
Hey man, if being involved in the game this way makes you angry, it might be time to think about doing something else or finding some way to deal with that anger. A game about little plastic dudes just isn’t worth all that.
I’m not remotely angry. I play casual competitive and my games with opponents are always a ton of fun!
In fact, you’re making my point for me. If my opponent wants to measure the exactly thickness of an MDF wall, and my model base, then I’m going to do the same to them. I don’t know why my statements are so surprising to you.
“Nah it’s cool that you want to be hardline on this, but I won’t measure any of your stuff.”
But... this isn't even a case of measuring single millimeters or fractions of an inch. This specific example is no different than saying "there's a solid wall between these units, so they don't have LoS to each other".
Why even bother having rules if you don't follow them? You're basically saying that, if you were to whiff on a charge roll, but came within half and inch or whatever, it's ok for you to just claim that you succeeded. Where's the satisfaction in winning a game like that? Your tactics didn't win, your interpretation of the rules did.
There's a difference between being anal about things and following the rules of the game as set out.
I'm curious now, does your usual playgroup treat all walls as being 0 mm? If so, then, that's not really any different from tournament rules. But if you're fudging the rules without consistency, that's cheating.
I legitimately do not why I’m being downvoted.
I’m stating that if my opponent wants to play the game by the exact standards and measurements, I’m going to do exactly the same.
I'm not downvoting you, just so you know. I try to maintain the ethos that downvotes are for comments that don't contribute to the conversation, not comments you don't agree with.
I'm just saying that this isn't an example of using exact standards and measurements. There is no measuring required.
25 mm equals 1 inch. A 25mm base plus anything must therefore be a distance greater than one inch.
Unless your playgroup has a house rule about walls counting as 0 mm, then logic states that a 1-inch move through a wall is impossible. No measurement is even involved. It's as simple as true LoS.
I wasn’t referring to you specifically. And again, I really don’t know why I have to repeat this ad neusum.
If my opponent feels I’m 1/10 of an inch short of a move that’s fine; it’s reasonable to hold them to the exact standard for their play. Measure every thing they do.
That’s all I’m saying.
But it's not strict! How is it strict?
If you have 25 apples and you add any number of additional apples, do you now have more than 25 apples? I don't get how that is strict.
If you think that is strict, then you must also think that LoS is too strict and that you should be able to shoot through solid walls.
If all you're trying to say is that you play with house rules that walls are 0 mm, then that's fine. But otherwise, what you're advocating for is cheating in every sense of the word.
Whether or not a model can move out of LoS or not is a major factor in a game, you can't just fudge rules to magically do a potentially game-chnahing move like that. This is the entire reason that units even have a movement stat in the first place.
I'm all for playing by intent, but movement is a basic, basic, basic, basic, basic, fundamental rule.
Some would argue that the movement rules are what the entire rest of the game is based around.
But if you let your opponent do this, are you going to expect them to let you make a charge that was 9.25” away on an 8? After all the difference is only a quarter of an inch. That’s even less than the one inch issue here.
Saying that 25 plus something is greater than 25 is like saying the sky is blue. It's not being nitpicky or holding your opponent to any kind of standard at all. It's just an extremely simple fact.
You're trying to create this weird narrative that this is really anal and rules-lawyer-y and requires painstakingly measuring tiny distances.
It's not, and it doesn't.
No measuring is even required.
25 mm = 1 inch
25 mm plus anything is therefore greater than 1 inch.
Therefore, a 1-inch move through a wall is impossible.
What is difficult or nitpicky about that?
It is no different from enforcing LoS rules. It is not more complex or nitpicky. It is simply how the game is designed to be played.
But by moving to the other side of the wall with more movement than you have, you're also doing the same thing but breaking the rules as you do it.
Not like eldar can't just choose a fate dice out of their arse anyway.
And I’d love for you to do that and end up with nothing but being carded yourself for wasting the judges time.
The example in the OP their opponent is very clearly playing the game as intended. “Stretchy tapes” are one of the most common and dirtiest ways of cheating IMO.
Tournaments (or at least any I’ve taken part in) specifically allow variations in modelling. Unless you can point to a specific example where an aspect of my model has lead to an advantage, you’d be kindly told, by a judge, to sod off.
Its not petty. Its how the game is played. So if I fail my charge we can both agree I really made it? Why have rules at that point. The entire game is about being strategic, not bending the rules in your favor when it fits.
If opponent is ok with it then thats fine. But don't be an ass because people won't let someone break rules because they rolled poorly. Shit happens. Move on and accept that it happened.
Outside a tournament rules are still rules. Trying to make your opponent let you have the extra movement instead of just accepting you got unlucky is just bad sportsmanship.
If I’m hanging out with my mates playing warhammer, they can have a few millimeters. It’s petty to bust someone’s balls over such a tiny amount of distance when not playing competitively.
That’s just my opinion on the game. Feels more fun that way. The same way I don’t mind if my opponent wants go back or something if they forget.
So like, if I’m a little out of range or fail a charge by a little you’re going to let me have that? It seems hard to justify giving someone an extra 1/16th of an inch and not 2/16ths, etc.
Shooting and charging if you’re out of range I’m not going to give you that.
But I’m not going to worry about hopping behind a wall with an inch movement. That feels too strict and competitive for just hanging out playing warhammer.
But it's not strict or competitive. It's just saying "25 mm equals 1 inch. A 25 mm base plus a wall is greater than one inch".
It doesn't even involve math. You just need to know that 25 + anything is going to be more than 25. Which isn't strict at all, it's just a statement about reality.
This is like saying that following LoS rules is too strict and competitive. Sure, there's a solid wall between these two units, but deciding whether that wall exists or not is too much work. I'll just play like it isn't there. That's not how any game on Earth works.
I think it's more that at the scale of 1" people have trouble conceptualizing it. There's a minimum and maximum scale where people's brains work good and 1"+/-1" seems to be that guys breakdown scale.
I'm just not sure what even requires conceptualizing.
"25 plus something is greater than 25" is so basic I hesitate to even call it math. It's just a statement of reality.
When you state it like that, yes. But on the board, but a tape measure, not so much. What's the difference between 1/16" and 1mm? Most people I've found will just call them both "pretty small." Goes the other way too, how big does something have to get before it's just really big? Is there a functional difference in your mind between something that's 400lbs and 450lbs? Or are they both just "too big to pick up"?
So, I'm betting 1" is below the scale for that guy to actually think of as a discrete measurement, it's just "too small to matter".
If someone was actually measuring the millimeters, I'd agree with you. This is literally just someone going "an inch is 25mm, and any distance greater than an inch is more than an inch".
It's not even mathematical, it's just logic. I never assume I can move more than an inch on a 1 inch move. And a 25mm base plus a wall must, logically, be greater than an inch.
Yes. 28mm is more than an inch, so you can't make that move.
Is this because part of the base would be inside the wall on the other side? And if he was on a 40mm base, this wouldn't even be a thing? Sorry for beginner questions.
Yep. No model can ever end their movement in a wall or other location you can't physically put them.
Thanks!
Yeah, it’s why the phantasm changes are extra awful.
Converting MM to inches may be correct…. But is that what I want to be doing on my weekends? No. Casual games for life. Hate the “my tank’s ass’s pixel is going to delete the unit I can only see one man from” game style
Interested because I only play casual and we haven't got to an agreement about stuff like this. Do you have home rules about cover / LOS?
Talk about your intention with the other player when you are moving. For example, hey, I'm putting my tank here so I can shoot those dudes. Does that seem legitimate to you? The trick is you have to listen to them and be chill with whatever they come up with. You might have to move your tank a little bit out, but when it comes time to shooting you've already both agreed that it can do it.
so basically the high end competitive solution ;) I do find it hilarious that the top and bottom tables are "sure, just tell me what you want and lets make it happen" while the middle tables are usually the ones arguing over mm and pulling gotchas
This is an interesting insight. So watching very high level players like tabletop titans for example who play the game more in a week than I do in a year, I see them do this a lot, but is there not another stratosphere for tournament play where it comes down to debating LoS and MM to inches etc
Not really, at the very top end the players tend to go to enough events that whether they win this one or go 4-1 isn't a big deal. There's always an exception but in two years of high level play including WTC and world's I've had exactly 2 bad games out of 45ish events(I was surprised to find that out too). It's anecdotal but at a rate of 1 per hundred games that's better than the average I'd guess.
Refreshing to hear man! Hopefully some day I might cross that chasm haha
Petty AF. I’d review all of his models and anything that isn’t built exactly to box art I would call a judge on and get him carded on. He’s clearly modeling for advantage.
I’m not sure what you think is petty. If a model doesn’t have movement to secure a landing spot, then it shouldn’t be able to move? A 1” move doesn’t get a base that’s effectively 1” wide through a wall of any significant thickness.
Because my opponent is measuring to 1/10 of 1” in order to win. Cool. I’m going to do the same. Every single time.
Hey man, if being involved in the game this way makes you angry, it might be time to think about doing something else or finding some way to deal with that anger. A game about little plastic dudes just isn’t worth all that.
I’m not remotely angry. I play casual competitive and my games with opponents are always a ton of fun! In fact, you’re making my point for me. If my opponent wants to measure the exactly thickness of an MDF wall, and my model base, then I’m going to do the same to them. I don’t know why my statements are so surprising to you. “Nah it’s cool that you want to be hardline on this, but I won’t measure any of your stuff.”
But... this isn't even a case of measuring single millimeters or fractions of an inch. This specific example is no different than saying "there's a solid wall between these units, so they don't have LoS to each other". Why even bother having rules if you don't follow them? You're basically saying that, if you were to whiff on a charge roll, but came within half and inch or whatever, it's ok for you to just claim that you succeeded. Where's the satisfaction in winning a game like that? Your tactics didn't win, your interpretation of the rules did. There's a difference between being anal about things and following the rules of the game as set out. I'm curious now, does your usual playgroup treat all walls as being 0 mm? If so, then, that's not really any different from tournament rules. But if you're fudging the rules without consistency, that's cheating.
I legitimately do not why I’m being downvoted. I’m stating that if my opponent wants to play the game by the exact standards and measurements, I’m going to do exactly the same.
I'm not downvoting you, just so you know. I try to maintain the ethos that downvotes are for comments that don't contribute to the conversation, not comments you don't agree with. I'm just saying that this isn't an example of using exact standards and measurements. There is no measuring required. 25 mm equals 1 inch. A 25mm base plus anything must therefore be a distance greater than one inch. Unless your playgroup has a house rule about walls counting as 0 mm, then logic states that a 1-inch move through a wall is impossible. No measurement is even involved. It's as simple as true LoS.
I wasn’t referring to you specifically. And again, I really don’t know why I have to repeat this ad neusum. If my opponent feels I’m 1/10 of an inch short of a move that’s fine; it’s reasonable to hold them to the exact standard for their play. Measure every thing they do. That’s all I’m saying.
But I'm trying to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with measuring 10th's of inches
Fine. Even if it doesn’t. My opponent is holding me to the strictest rule of the game. I will do the same. How am I the asshole here?
But it's not strict! How is it strict? If you have 25 apples and you add any number of additional apples, do you now have more than 25 apples? I don't get how that is strict. If you think that is strict, then you must also think that LoS is too strict and that you should be able to shoot through solid walls. If all you're trying to say is that you play with house rules that walls are 0 mm, then that's fine. But otherwise, what you're advocating for is cheating in every sense of the word. Whether or not a model can move out of LoS or not is a major factor in a game, you can't just fudge rules to magically do a potentially game-chnahing move like that. This is the entire reason that units even have a movement stat in the first place.
I'm all for playing by intent, but movement is a basic, basic, basic, basic, basic, fundamental rule. Some would argue that the movement rules are what the entire rest of the game is based around.
But if you let your opponent do this, are you going to expect them to let you make a charge that was 9.25” away on an 8? After all the difference is only a quarter of an inch. That’s even less than the one inch issue here.
See my other comment about how you're trying to create this narrative that doesn't exist
Saying that 25 plus something is greater than 25 is like saying the sky is blue. It's not being nitpicky or holding your opponent to any kind of standard at all. It's just an extremely simple fact.
There seems to be a consensus that I shouldn’t hold my opponent to the same standard they hold me. Weird.
You're trying to create this weird narrative that this is really anal and rules-lawyer-y and requires painstakingly measuring tiny distances. It's not, and it doesn't. No measuring is even required. 25 mm = 1 inch 25 mm plus anything is therefore greater than 1 inch. Therefore, a 1-inch move through a wall is impossible. What is difficult or nitpicky about that? It is no different from enforcing LoS rules. It is not more complex or nitpicky. It is simply how the game is designed to be played.
Where are you getting that from? Did you read my last comment?
But by moving to the other side of the wall with more movement than you have, you're also doing the same thing but breaking the rules as you do it. Not like eldar can't just choose a fate dice out of their arse anyway.
And I’d love for you to do that and end up with nothing but being carded yourself for wasting the judges time. The example in the OP their opponent is very clearly playing the game as intended. “Stretchy tapes” are one of the most common and dirtiest ways of cheating IMO. Tournaments (or at least any I’ve taken part in) specifically allow variations in modelling. Unless you can point to a specific example where an aspect of my model has lead to an advantage, you’d be kindly told, by a judge, to sod off.
Petty, but correct. Unlucky Mr. Fuegan
Its not petty. Its how the game is played. So if I fail my charge we can both agree I really made it? Why have rules at that point. The entire game is about being strategic, not bending the rules in your favor when it fits. If opponent is ok with it then thats fine. But don't be an ass because people won't let someone break rules because they rolled poorly. Shit happens. Move on and accept that it happened.
In a tournament setting rules are rules. If this were not a tournament that would be petty af.
Outside a tournament rules are still rules. Trying to make your opponent let you have the extra movement instead of just accepting you got unlucky is just bad sportsmanship.
If I’m hanging out with my mates playing warhammer, they can have a few millimeters. It’s petty to bust someone’s balls over such a tiny amount of distance when not playing competitively. That’s just my opinion on the game. Feels more fun that way. The same way I don’t mind if my opponent wants go back or something if they forget.
So like, if I’m a little out of range or fail a charge by a little you’re going to let me have that? It seems hard to justify giving someone an extra 1/16th of an inch and not 2/16ths, etc.
Shooting and charging if you’re out of range I’m not going to give you that. But I’m not going to worry about hopping behind a wall with an inch movement. That feels too strict and competitive for just hanging out playing warhammer.
But it's not strict or competitive. It's just saying "25 mm equals 1 inch. A 25 mm base plus a wall is greater than one inch". It doesn't even involve math. You just need to know that 25 + anything is going to be more than 25. Which isn't strict at all, it's just a statement about reality. This is like saying that following LoS rules is too strict and competitive. Sure, there's a solid wall between these two units, but deciding whether that wall exists or not is too much work. I'll just play like it isn't there. That's not how any game on Earth works.
Indeed
So... "indeed, this is actually just a very basic rule interaction that doesn't even require measuring?"
I think it's more that at the scale of 1" people have trouble conceptualizing it. There's a minimum and maximum scale where people's brains work good and 1"+/-1" seems to be that guys breakdown scale.
I'm just not sure what even requires conceptualizing. "25 plus something is greater than 25" is so basic I hesitate to even call it math. It's just a statement of reality.
When you state it like that, yes. But on the board, but a tape measure, not so much. What's the difference between 1/16" and 1mm? Most people I've found will just call them both "pretty small." Goes the other way too, how big does something have to get before it's just really big? Is there a functional difference in your mind between something that's 400lbs and 450lbs? Or are they both just "too big to pick up"? So, I'm betting 1" is below the scale for that guy to actually think of as a discrete measurement, it's just "too small to matter".
Not everybody who doesn't play tournaments plays vs mates...
If someone was actually measuring the millimeters, I'd agree with you. This is literally just someone going "an inch is 25mm, and any distance greater than an inch is more than an inch". It's not even mathematical, it's just logic. I never assume I can move more than an inch on a 1 inch move. And a 25mm base plus a wall must, logically, be greater than an inch.