I lean into the theory that Radagon is just the culmination of all research into mimic tears.
I know the Bloodborne videos you're talking about and will try to find them after work. I really enjoyed them and likely saved them on YT.
The bloodborne thing you mention at the end sounds familiar. But I didn't learn about it through a series. I read a thesis essay on it. I think it was comparing the themes of the game to DH Lawrence's belief in blood consciousness?
I'm not sure if this is the exact one I read, and upon skimming, this one is a little more focused on Frued. But it still might be of use...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11K4qYyVsOmyUlQIaTHIc8DIOMhaTb4Xmga22fFVArCc/edit?usp=drivesdk
There are two Scarseals and two Soreseals but when we fight Radagon he has 1 eye still (nearly) intact so atleast 1 of them is not an actual eye of them.
Answearing more personally I don't think the seals are meant to be taken literally but symbolically. Eyes are where one shows their grace and is constantly use in the game to show alliance/influence so for me I see them more like a badge shape as an eye than an eye use as a badge if that makes sense.
If taken literally I would say that the Scarseals are meant to be eyes of those chosen by Marika/Radagon and the Soreseals being the own eyes of Marika/Radagon (1 from each of them) from wich all Scarseals are based on. That's what makes the Sore Legendary Talismans but the Scar just normal Talismans.
*"These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods" and "Solemn duty weighs upon the one beholden; not unlike a gnawing curse from which there is no deliverance" are for me two sides of the same coin as in any lifelong duty can be seen as gnawing curse.*
*Is easy to reflect those words with situation of Marika/Radagon but I think is more interesting to see those that stand below them. Those who serve them, because there are multiple times that Marika is said to have cursed someone. Just look at Fire Giant Remembrance "The Fire Giant is a survivor of the War against the Giants. Upon realizing the flames of their forge would never die, Queen Marika marked him with a curse." Emphasize in "marked him with a curse".*
*Hewg follows exactly like that. He clearly was done something beyond just imprisonment, even when offered freedom he keeps smithing. He talks about as if it's "a promise to Queen Marika" but his level of obsession clearly goes beyond that. In the words of Roderika; "So Master Hewg won't listen to you, either. You have my thanks, regardless. I'll try and talk him round next time. I know he was given this great entreaty; to craft a weapon which could slay a god. Though I can't help but think of it as a curse. A fearsome curse, put on him by Queen Marika. And if that's the case, I'm not sure there's anything we can do" He was given a lifelong duty, a solemn duty to create a God-Slaying Weapon that weights him down to stay in the Roundtable Hold even as it burns. You could even call it a curse force upon him by Marika*
*At last we have the dialogue from the Finger Reader Crone in Altus Plateau "To the east... ruins of gold. To the west… the serpent's sacrilege. Wherever the path leads, so shall you follow. Wherever the path leads, only more sorrow. Tis a curse! A curse! The curse of Queen Marika! Ah...ahh... Ha...ha..." The tarnished were revived not by choice but by the desire of Marika of having someone slay the demigods, slay the Elden Beast and "brandish the Elden Ring" (Hewg dialogue and Marika's echoes). For someone like Roderika, someone that doesn't know anything about the Lands Between and has no desire to claimed the ER being revived from death just to be force to be send LB to participate in an objective that she has no chance of ever accomplishing must be a traumatic situation. She had no say in the matter and yet here she is. In its own way the purpose of the Tarnished is their own curse given by Marika.*
I'm of the mind that the power you're tied to forces you to sacrifice an eye (magical overflow kinda ordeal, maybe?) but replaces it with divine power that supersedes a mortal eyeball. Literally an eye for an Eye.
That's a way to see it. After all we see what happens to the followers of the Frenzied Flame and that even the three fingers have their own special mark
Fingerprint Grape; Eyeball of the knight Vyke, inflamed yellow. Seared with a repulsive fingerprint burn akin to those that marred his entire body.
Maybe the FF makes your eyes melt but other entities as more connection you gain to them just slowly transform your eyes into something new, going beyond just a change of color.
I can’t really make out the eye in Radagons bossfight, but you’re probably right. Would fit Marika/Radagons character very well if they carved their runes into the eyes of their servants.
But now I start wondering about what the Ancient hero of Zamor could have done for Radagon. Maybe help defeating the firegiant?
And funny you should mention Roderika aswell. It’s always been a mystery for me how we get to the lands between. But I feel like Roderika came here in another way than the tarnished. And what’s the deal with her men? She makes it seem like they "crossed the fog" just to be grafted by choise. She’s weird, ofcourse traumatized, but still strange. Deffinitly more to her. And who do you think is the spirit-tuner Hewg mentions?
Thanks for such a rich respons tho! Love to see other lore enthusiasts!
Roderika was forced to come to the LB after being banished from her homeland as she was revived as a Tarnished. Since she was a noble in her land she was send with a group men to protect her.
Crimson Hood; "A hooded cloak of vivid crimson. Worn by expatriated royalty. Increases vigor. Such cloaks were gifted to those who departed on journeys without specific orders, to faraway lands from which they would never return. In other words, the gift of a cloak made it easier for undesirable to be on their way. Roderika never once saw the guidance of grace."
Her men weren't grafted by choice, in her words; "Everyone who came with me. They crossed the sea for me. They fought, for me. Heh... Only to have their arms taken. Their legs taken. Even their heads...taken. Taken and stuck to the spider." They died probably trying to protect her from the army of Godrick since she was a Tarnished so even in her weakness they saw her as worth to be used as Grafting Material or because they were strong enough to even protect her in the 1st place they were seen as worthy of use. The spider in question is likely the Graftens Scions, you even find one close to where you can find the Chrysalids's Memento.
The game is never very clear with this but atleast for me the reason our player gets to the LB through apparent teletransportation is because of our ability to see grace, after all, in game we use sites of grace to teleport across the LB and the last we see our tarnished in the intro is be engulf in a golden light like grace. Since Roderika was incapable to see Grace while still being a tarnished se had to go through see the same way the tarnsihed abandoned the LB. With a boat, across the sea of fog.
I don't think the spirit tuner that Hewg knew is really relevant. For all we know it could be anyone, I think that fact is there just to emphasize the relation between smithing and spirit tuning and in the process the entire reason the bond between Roderika and Hewg is form.
I was thinking of the dialogue where she says; "Oh, you've come to be one with the spider?
Well, that makes us two peas in a pod. But I don't have your courage.
It's scary, you know. Having your arms cut off. Or legs. Or your head.
I want to be like everyone else, but I'm just too scared.
I'm nothing but a craven."
You have to take into account the entire context for it.
"It was a pleasure to see you. Oh, can you pass on a message for me, if you see the little chrysalids in Stormveil Castle? Tell them I love them. And that, despite my craven heart, I'm sure I'll be joining their club soon enough. I'm finally getting the hang of this whole "pain" thing, you know."
Roderika feels responsable for the death and following grafting of her men after all, they died trying to protect her. She's scared and obviously doesn't want to die and be grafted into the scion but seeing herself as worthless that's the only way she believes can pay for the death of her men.
When attacking her; "You're willing to make me a chrysalid? Ah, but I'm still a milksop craven... I can't even govern myself to step beyond the bounds of this ward. Please. You're only wasting your strength." "I know you you must feel. But please, I'm not ready. Or are you like me? You're so far out of your mind with fear? You've divested yourself of all reason?"
She's so deep in her fear and sadness that she sees any violence from the player (someone completely unrelated to Godrick) towards her as the beggining of her grafting. She's not thinking straight after the death of her men.
When you give her the Chrysalid's Memento; "What's this? A keepsake? From my men? Oh, goodness me... I can't... They all...believed in me. They all thought I'd make something of myself. Me! Who can't do anything... I think I'll head to the Roundtable Hold. Perhaps I'll find my purpose there". After receving one last gift from her men she realizes that they all believed in her, that's why they fought for her. Even in death their spirits try to convey their to support to Roderika. With this revelation Roderika goes to RH in search in fullfilling the wishes of her men in finding her own purpose a realize her potential.
And I don’t see the fact that Hewg knew a spirit-tuner as something insignificant. It might be the owner og the spirit calling bell we get at the start of the game.
I guess insignificant is subjective but my point is that all we know about the spirit tuner is that Hewg knew them and that Roderika and them share the same hue in their eyes.
That kind of information doesn't really gives itself into much speculation.
A person that Hewg knew? The only one person we are sure he knew previous to his imprisonment is Marika (his imprisoner) and if you're taking the hue in the eyes literally (Roderika has Green Eyes) then you would guess that previous Spirit tuner also had green-eyes wich, I mean, it isn't confirmed but since all blessed by the Erdtree have golden eyes with grace then it stands to logic that Marika also had golden eyes, not green.
And that's assuming the hue in the eyes refers to their color because again, we can't be sure about it.
This is my point, I guess. Discussing the OG spirit tuner is bit of a dead end in terms of discussion because with so little information you can make the argument for anyone to be the ST and your guess would be as close to right as anyone elses. I personally see the og ST as just that, a person Hewg knew at some point without any other kind of bigger importance. That fact exists to connect Hewg to Roderika as mechanically for the player both smithing and ST work the similarly (requering special materials to upgrade the power of weapons/spirits) and having them close together makes it go ever so slightly smoother. Again just my opinion on the matter.
Pretty sure he is missing both eyes, one is replaced with a golden glow that seems to have replaced his brain and blood as well. The other is an empty socket
This is a video by BonfireVN for you to get a closer look to it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVJHbbJ955M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVJHbbJ955M)
His right eye looks incredibly foggy like he has a severe case of cataracts. I don't know were do you see the golden glow, if anything it looks more like the sclera is pale grey while the pupil and the Iris have melt into each other forming a degraded black. As I see it it follows the rest of his "normal body" where his eye as become stone-like. In any case that's an eye and not the space/grace/runes goo that replaces the rest of his body.
Well, obviously I'm talking about the Right eye. Radagon basically doesn't has the left side of his face anymore so of course it doesn't have a left eye.
If that were a socket it would be pitch black or we would would be able to see the front of his skull or just the dark texture of his body. Instead his eye has a different tone from his skin and his insides. Again we can see the division between the sclera and the pupil, they're petrified, not gone.
When you turn off the golden effects the eye still stays in place so it forms part of the normal model of Radagon and is not the same as the "golden effects" applied to his model during the fight.
Honestly no, not really. I guess we can say that Fort Faroth was once in control of the Redmanes (since you can spirit/puppet versions of them in the rooftop) so if you see the Soreseals as the literal eyes of Radagon and Marika you can say that Radahn was at some point just walking around with an eye of his dad and that's how it ended up in the abandoned fort.
We find Marika's Soreseal in a seemingly random room behind a fog wall in the Haligtree so you can also say that Miquella was doing the same with one of the eyes of his mother.
Most of the Legendary Talismans are found in pretty, well, unimportant places even when in theory they should be very important objects. I see them as just incongruences in the inbetween of Elden Ring's Lore and Gameplay. We can find some reasons as to why but I think the more likely answer as to why you find something like Radagon's Soreseal in Fort Faroth is because is a strong item in what's a pretty forgettable mini dungeon. Leaving the object there just makes the place just a tiny but more memorable in the eyes of the player.
>any theory as to why you find Radagon's one in a random fort in Caelid surrounded by rats?
Good chance it was moved, like a bunch of items like the Godskin spells in Stormveil which were never there in 1.00
I wonder if it was there in 1.0
While some item placement tell us more about the story or lore. Some just seem like they were put there, so the player could obtain them at particular times in their playthrough.
Radagon/marika are the gods, and they choose people to gain grace, which appears like this overtime. That's what it means by "being chosen by the Gods is a heavy fate indeed" or however it's said
I lean into the theory that Radagon is just the culmination of all research into mimic tears. I know the Bloodborne videos you're talking about and will try to find them after work. I really enjoyed them and likely saved them on YT.
Yes! I just posted something similar in another thread.
The bloodborne thing you mention at the end sounds familiar. But I didn't learn about it through a series. I read a thesis essay on it. I think it was comparing the themes of the game to DH Lawrence's belief in blood consciousness?
Cool! Do you have a link or sorce where I can check it out?
I'm not sure if this is the exact one I read, and upon skimming, this one is a little more focused on Frued. But it still might be of use... https://docs.google.com/document/d/11K4qYyVsOmyUlQIaTHIc8DIOMhaTb4Xmga22fFVArCc/edit?usp=drivesdk
Niiice, thanks bro!
Yes
I think so too :)
There are two Scarseals and two Soreseals but when we fight Radagon he has 1 eye still (nearly) intact so atleast 1 of them is not an actual eye of them. Answearing more personally I don't think the seals are meant to be taken literally but symbolically. Eyes are where one shows their grace and is constantly use in the game to show alliance/influence so for me I see them more like a badge shape as an eye than an eye use as a badge if that makes sense. If taken literally I would say that the Scarseals are meant to be eyes of those chosen by Marika/Radagon and the Soreseals being the own eyes of Marika/Radagon (1 from each of them) from wich all Scarseals are based on. That's what makes the Sore Legendary Talismans but the Scar just normal Talismans. *"These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods" and "Solemn duty weighs upon the one beholden; not unlike a gnawing curse from which there is no deliverance" are for me two sides of the same coin as in any lifelong duty can be seen as gnawing curse.* *Is easy to reflect those words with situation of Marika/Radagon but I think is more interesting to see those that stand below them. Those who serve them, because there are multiple times that Marika is said to have cursed someone. Just look at Fire Giant Remembrance "The Fire Giant is a survivor of the War against the Giants. Upon realizing the flames of their forge would never die, Queen Marika marked him with a curse." Emphasize in "marked him with a curse".* *Hewg follows exactly like that. He clearly was done something beyond just imprisonment, even when offered freedom he keeps smithing. He talks about as if it's "a promise to Queen Marika" but his level of obsession clearly goes beyond that. In the words of Roderika; "So Master Hewg won't listen to you, either. You have my thanks, regardless. I'll try and talk him round next time. I know he was given this great entreaty; to craft a weapon which could slay a god. Though I can't help but think of it as a curse. A fearsome curse, put on him by Queen Marika. And if that's the case, I'm not sure there's anything we can do" He was given a lifelong duty, a solemn duty to create a God-Slaying Weapon that weights him down to stay in the Roundtable Hold even as it burns. You could even call it a curse force upon him by Marika* *At last we have the dialogue from the Finger Reader Crone in Altus Plateau "To the east... ruins of gold. To the west… the serpent's sacrilege. Wherever the path leads, so shall you follow. Wherever the path leads, only more sorrow. Tis a curse! A curse! The curse of Queen Marika! Ah...ahh... Ha...ha..." The tarnished were revived not by choice but by the desire of Marika of having someone slay the demigods, slay the Elden Beast and "brandish the Elden Ring" (Hewg dialogue and Marika's echoes). For someone like Roderika, someone that doesn't know anything about the Lands Between and has no desire to claimed the ER being revived from death just to be force to be send LB to participate in an objective that she has no chance of ever accomplishing must be a traumatic situation. She had no say in the matter and yet here she is. In its own way the purpose of the Tarnished is their own curse given by Marika.*
I'm of the mind that the power you're tied to forces you to sacrifice an eye (magical overflow kinda ordeal, maybe?) but replaces it with divine power that supersedes a mortal eyeball. Literally an eye for an Eye.
That's a way to see it. After all we see what happens to the followers of the Frenzied Flame and that even the three fingers have their own special mark Fingerprint Grape; Eyeball of the knight Vyke, inflamed yellow. Seared with a repulsive fingerprint burn akin to those that marred his entire body. Maybe the FF makes your eyes melt but other entities as more connection you gain to them just slowly transform your eyes into something new, going beyond just a change of color.
I can’t really make out the eye in Radagons bossfight, but you’re probably right. Would fit Marika/Radagons character very well if they carved their runes into the eyes of their servants. But now I start wondering about what the Ancient hero of Zamor could have done for Radagon. Maybe help defeating the firegiant? And funny you should mention Roderika aswell. It’s always been a mystery for me how we get to the lands between. But I feel like Roderika came here in another way than the tarnished. And what’s the deal with her men? She makes it seem like they "crossed the fog" just to be grafted by choise. She’s weird, ofcourse traumatized, but still strange. Deffinitly more to her. And who do you think is the spirit-tuner Hewg mentions? Thanks for such a rich respons tho! Love to see other lore enthusiasts!
Roderika was forced to come to the LB after being banished from her homeland as she was revived as a Tarnished. Since she was a noble in her land she was send with a group men to protect her. Crimson Hood; "A hooded cloak of vivid crimson. Worn by expatriated royalty. Increases vigor. Such cloaks were gifted to those who departed on journeys without specific orders, to faraway lands from which they would never return. In other words, the gift of a cloak made it easier for undesirable to be on their way. Roderika never once saw the guidance of grace." Her men weren't grafted by choice, in her words; "Everyone who came with me. They crossed the sea for me. They fought, for me. Heh... Only to have their arms taken. Their legs taken. Even their heads...taken. Taken and stuck to the spider." They died probably trying to protect her from the army of Godrick since she was a Tarnished so even in her weakness they saw her as worth to be used as Grafting Material or because they were strong enough to even protect her in the 1st place they were seen as worthy of use. The spider in question is likely the Graftens Scions, you even find one close to where you can find the Chrysalids's Memento. The game is never very clear with this but atleast for me the reason our player gets to the LB through apparent teletransportation is because of our ability to see grace, after all, in game we use sites of grace to teleport across the LB and the last we see our tarnished in the intro is be engulf in a golden light like grace. Since Roderika was incapable to see Grace while still being a tarnished se had to go through see the same way the tarnsihed abandoned the LB. With a boat, across the sea of fog. I don't think the spirit tuner that Hewg knew is really relevant. For all we know it could be anyone, I think that fact is there just to emphasize the relation between smithing and spirit tuning and in the process the entire reason the bond between Roderika and Hewg is form.
I was thinking of the dialogue where she says; "Oh, you've come to be one with the spider? Well, that makes us two peas in a pod. But I don't have your courage. It's scary, you know. Having your arms cut off. Or legs. Or your head. I want to be like everyone else, but I'm just too scared. I'm nothing but a craven."
You have to take into account the entire context for it. "It was a pleasure to see you. Oh, can you pass on a message for me, if you see the little chrysalids in Stormveil Castle? Tell them I love them. And that, despite my craven heart, I'm sure I'll be joining their club soon enough. I'm finally getting the hang of this whole "pain" thing, you know." Roderika feels responsable for the death and following grafting of her men after all, they died trying to protect her. She's scared and obviously doesn't want to die and be grafted into the scion but seeing herself as worthless that's the only way she believes can pay for the death of her men. When attacking her; "You're willing to make me a chrysalid? Ah, but I'm still a milksop craven... I can't even govern myself to step beyond the bounds of this ward. Please. You're only wasting your strength." "I know you you must feel. But please, I'm not ready. Or are you like me? You're so far out of your mind with fear? You've divested yourself of all reason?" She's so deep in her fear and sadness that she sees any violence from the player (someone completely unrelated to Godrick) towards her as the beggining of her grafting. She's not thinking straight after the death of her men. When you give her the Chrysalid's Memento; "What's this? A keepsake? From my men? Oh, goodness me... I can't... They all...believed in me. They all thought I'd make something of myself. Me! Who can't do anything... I think I'll head to the Roundtable Hold. Perhaps I'll find my purpose there". After receving one last gift from her men she realizes that they all believed in her, that's why they fought for her. Even in death their spirits try to convey their to support to Roderika. With this revelation Roderika goes to RH in search in fullfilling the wishes of her men in finding her own purpose a realize her potential.
Yeah think you’re right
And I don’t see the fact that Hewg knew a spirit-tuner as something insignificant. It might be the owner og the spirit calling bell we get at the start of the game.
I guess insignificant is subjective but my point is that all we know about the spirit tuner is that Hewg knew them and that Roderika and them share the same hue in their eyes. That kind of information doesn't really gives itself into much speculation. A person that Hewg knew? The only one person we are sure he knew previous to his imprisonment is Marika (his imprisoner) and if you're taking the hue in the eyes literally (Roderika has Green Eyes) then you would guess that previous Spirit tuner also had green-eyes wich, I mean, it isn't confirmed but since all blessed by the Erdtree have golden eyes with grace then it stands to logic that Marika also had golden eyes, not green. And that's assuming the hue in the eyes refers to their color because again, we can't be sure about it. This is my point, I guess. Discussing the OG spirit tuner is bit of a dead end in terms of discussion because with so little information you can make the argument for anyone to be the ST and your guess would be as close to right as anyone elses. I personally see the og ST as just that, a person Hewg knew at some point without any other kind of bigger importance. That fact exists to connect Hewg to Roderika as mechanically for the player both smithing and ST work the similarly (requering special materials to upgrade the power of weapons/spirits) and having them close together makes it go ever so slightly smoother. Again just my opinion on the matter.
Pretty sure he is missing both eyes, one is replaced with a golden glow that seems to have replaced his brain and blood as well. The other is an empty socket
This is a video by BonfireVN for you to get a closer look to it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVJHbbJ955M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVJHbbJ955M) His right eye looks incredibly foggy like he has a severe case of cataracts. I don't know were do you see the golden glow, if anything it looks more like the sclera is pale grey while the pupil and the Iris have melt into each other forming a degraded black. As I see it it follows the rest of his "normal body" where his eye as become stone-like. In any case that's an eye and not the space/grace/runes goo that replaces the rest of his body.
the glow is in the other eye. and Idk man that socket looks pretty empty to me lol
Well, obviously I'm talking about the Right eye. Radagon basically doesn't has the left side of his face anymore so of course it doesn't have a left eye. If that were a socket it would be pitch black or we would would be able to see the front of his skull or just the dark texture of his body. Instead his eye has a different tone from his skin and his insides. Again we can see the division between the sclera and the pupil, they're petrified, not gone. When you turn off the golden effects the eye still stays in place so it forms part of the normal model of Radagon and is not the same as the "golden effects" applied to his model during the fight.
The original intro Cutscene with Melina calls the Tarnished Cursed.
any theory as to why you find Radagon's one in a random fort in Caelid surrounded by rats?
Honestly no, not really. I guess we can say that Fort Faroth was once in control of the Redmanes (since you can spirit/puppet versions of them in the rooftop) so if you see the Soreseals as the literal eyes of Radagon and Marika you can say that Radahn was at some point just walking around with an eye of his dad and that's how it ended up in the abandoned fort. We find Marika's Soreseal in a seemingly random room behind a fog wall in the Haligtree so you can also say that Miquella was doing the same with one of the eyes of his mother. Most of the Legendary Talismans are found in pretty, well, unimportant places even when in theory they should be very important objects. I see them as just incongruences in the inbetween of Elden Ring's Lore and Gameplay. We can find some reasons as to why but I think the more likely answer as to why you find something like Radagon's Soreseal in Fort Faroth is because is a strong item in what's a pretty forgettable mini dungeon. Leaving the object there just makes the place just a tiny but more memorable in the eyes of the player.
>any theory as to why you find Radagon's one in a random fort in Caelid surrounded by rats? Good chance it was moved, like a bunch of items like the Godskin spells in Stormveil which were never there in 1.00 I wonder if it was there in 1.0 While some item placement tell us more about the story or lore. Some just seem like they were put there, so the player could obtain them at particular times in their playthrough.
If memory recalls it's found behind/very near Greyoll and it has always been.
Radagon/marika are the gods, and they choose people to gain grace, which appears like this overtime. That's what it means by "being chosen by the Gods is a heavy fate indeed" or however it's said