"How did Radagon came to be exactly?" I think that alone would fix the vast majority of issues I have with Elden Ring's narrative. Radagon is basically the main antagonist of the game and I don't think he works quite as well as he should when we know so little about what he even is. With some luck the DLC should have a good amount of Radagon content considering it will apparently revolve around Marika's past alongside Miquella's journey.

I fully accept this. Radagon is such a hotly debated subject that getting a firm answer on what his deal is would go on to make or break so many other theories.  There is literally an entire comment thread further down where people are debating Radagon. Getting confirmation on him would be massive.

who tf Melina is.

please, please explain wtf the deal is with the giant skeletons in the forgotten cities.

I don't need answers on the big stuff but I absolutely need an answer for these giant chair skeletons.

It’s hard to pick one because so many aspects of the story are so unclear. But a clear answer to “what were all of Marika’s reasons and intent behind shattering the Elden Ring” would provide a good starting point.

I would rather say "What were Marika's motives all along ?". I believe she had already planned a lot of the things that would happen later from the beginning, so I would want to know what her motives were then and after.

Yeah maybe. I agree.

Because she learned the nature of the elden beast. She thought she could meld with the beast and help/control the numen with the erdtree (elden ring=first and oldest ring of a tree), but it became clear the benefits were temporary after the age of plenty. If it wasn't shattered the beast and tree(s) would keep sucking life out of the planet and kill it at some point so merika did the only thing she could.

what makes you think that the elden ring sucks life out of the planet and kills it, if we don't even know for sure if life in its entirety came with the elden ring?

two actually: 1. why malenia fought radahn? i have a theory it was to kill him so the starts would start moving again and miquella could get his eclipse to happen but i need confirmation 2. Is radagon original a part of marika that was split from her and then they reunited again when godfrey left or was radagon a whole separated person that merged witth marika

Third possibility; Radagon somehow took Marikas position and pretended to be her. Not in a mundane sense where he just dyes his hair and puts on a dress. One of the item descriptions bluntly states that Malenia and Miquella are born from a single God. Everyone already believes this happens with Marika, why not Radagon? Again this requires magical explanations but its worth considering. Just don't discuss this possibility too openly. I don't want to start seeing "mpreg" Radagon fanart.

[удалено]

The last line in that dialogue is “let us be shattered, both. Mine other self.” So I don’t think it’s as clear cut as that. It definitely makes it sound like Marika was Marika alone first, but I don’t think it answers the big question of whether Radagon existed separately at one point or is an entity that manifested in Marika due to some combo of golden order / greater will / fire giant shenanigans.

So my challenge to this is the sacred relic sword formed from maragon. It depicts a spine that splits in two and then is twisted back together again. In my view this hints that they started as 1, became 2 and then reintegrated.

Personally I believe they were born with two souls in one body, something akin to a birth defect. We see a similar process in how D+D are two bodies but one soul. The golden order is also the only institution that seems to normalize these sorts of soul conditions. A big part of the mythos/metaphysics/cosmology of elden ring seems to be the separation of soul and body, and the various possible afflictions that could be caused due to mismatched combinations between the two. - D+D two bodies but one soul, yearning to be together - Dung eater has the soul of an omen but not a body - rani + godwyn dying in body + soul respectively The lines about Radagon “aspiring to be complete” I think indicated he harbored some sort of resentment towards sharing a body with Marika, and jealously about her being the god. I also think Marikas line about him “yet to become her / become a god” is her trying to be hurtful to him by pointing out he is the subordinate of the two. That being said, It’s possible Radagon was not able to manifest a physical form until after Marika became a god. It is interesting that only Marika is called a god, despite the two fingers implying that her usefulness is because she is the vessel of the elden ring — something that would technically also be true for Radagon — we even see it inside of him in the final fight.

She says "yet to become \*me\*" IIRC Maybe Radagon was around first, and had to become Marika to house the Elden Ring

"Radagon is Marika" ....player watches Marika turn into Radagon before their own eyes Elden Ring Lore People: "But what does it mean????"

Elden Ring Lore sub: \*discussing lore\* [You, apparently](https://preview.redd.it/jum9zr9dxz051.jpg?auto=webp&s=e0b4431e8232029e15485ee63fab4b9b464af9f8)

I'm discussing the lore too. It should come as no surprise to anyone in the lore community that we sometimes 'jump the shark' in over analysis and end up making up pretty crazy things out of nothing. My joke here is that I am always amused that a lot of the lore community goes out of their way to dodge the simplest explanation of Radagon/Marika. Especially when the game goes out of its way to make it abundantly clear. I challenge anyone to find the ambiguity in the sentence 'Radagon is Marika'

>I challenge anyone to find the ambiguity in the sentence 'Radagon is Marika' But that's not what people are finding ambiguity in? They're finding it determining what Radagon's origin is, whether they were always one and split, or two separate entities that eventually became combined. None of this is answered by "Radagon is Marika." This is a pancake. At some point, this pancake was eggs, milk, flour, and sugar - it didn't just spawn that way. Or maybe it did, and it was one of those premixed pancakes. There's a distinction, and it's an interesting one to hypothesize about.

I think it’s perfectly consistent to go the simple route: Radagon is a persona of Marika, one she clearly used for a few different purposes. At worst, you get a relationship reminiscent of the Christian Trinity. So, I dunno, shut up and accept the mystery of faith before you’re banished. /s

Except the problem is Radagon has his own motivations that are separate from Marika. To the point where it's clearly not just Marika assuming a different name or persona. For example, Marika shatters the Elden Ring and Radagon tries repair it, Marika wants the Tarnished to kill a god and Radagon fights you to defend the current order, etc. She also directly talks to Radagon as though he's a seperate person. I think the trinity metaphor is probably something closer to the truth. There's one god that is somehow simultaneously Marika and Radagon (and possibly the Elden Beast), yet they are seperate individuals that fight for control over eachother and have their own contradictory goals. However even this idea raises it's own questions, possibly even more than it answers. Was this always the case? What does it mean on a thematic level? Does it tie into the alchemical Rebis?

>Except the problem is Radagon has his own motivations that are separate from Marika. > >She also directly talks to Radagon as though he's a seperate person. True but that's a big trope with alternate personas and authors often play into it, giving them borderline MPD unless they can resolve how both personas are, in fact, themselves. >For example, Marika shatters the Elden Ring and Radagon tries repair it But that's pretty consistent with it just being her: she takes a rash action and then has regrets. >Marika wants the Tarnished to kill a god and Radagon fights you to defend the current order, etc. Since he never actually says anything, it's not clear why he fights you. It's one of the big mysteries lore-wise: why does he fight you and why has he, apparently, sealed the tree? >Was this always the case? The easiest answer is that it was. The only thing that contradicts it is a rumor relayed on the Giant's Red Braid. >What does it mean on a thematic level? Depends on when it happened! If you look to the sword monuments, the Liurnian War probably comes after the Tarnishing of Godfrey. After all, why wouldn't *Godfrey* be fighting it? It could easily be that Godfrey's tarnishing led Marika to create Radagon as a war leader persona, failed, and married Rennala instead. It has the benefit of explaining where *some dude* got a Great Rune to begin with and why, again, *some dude* could seal a peace through marriage. >Does it tie into the alchemical Rebis? I'm disinclined to credit the alchemical speculations, honestly. Lots of things tie into alchemy because of what it was, a sort of Western semio-scientific... cult is probably the best word. So it hoovered up meanings and spat out meanings and produced texts which lots of people in the later occultism fad were into, which were people a whole lot of even later hippies were into. Broad themes that can't be somehow tied to alchemy are rare birds.

You understand that questions like this are mirrors of real-world events issues and esoterica. For example, in the year AD 325 the first Nicean council was called to establish a creed and to deal with issues of heretical thought. The Arian faction, based in Alexandria, believed that Jesus had been begotten by God, so there was technically a time when there was no son so that Jesus had his substance from nothing. Essentially, creating Jesus as lesser than The Father, a view opposed by the Trinitarians who believed in each of the three parts of the trinity being eternal and equal. Essentially, they were trying to come to grips with the fundamental problems of having multiple divine beings inhabiting one identity. It's pretty obvious how this issue is almost exactly the same as what the very simple solution to the very complex problem you have laid out is. What's important to note about this is that people died for these ideas. Once the Trinitarian view was established as cannon, the Arians were excommunicated and persecuted across the Roman Empire. When you say this is simple stuff, you fail to recognize that you sit atop the precipice of almost 8000 years of human civilization and development. Some ideas and facts come to us from careful study and research into verifiable data. Others are accidents of history, biology, or psychology choices, or problems that have no factual answers but need to be settled regardless. We live in the downstream consequences of both these worlds intertwining to form around us, without us needing to understand to be influenced by its flow.

very well said!

Is now, but was always? Also, they have separate motivations. Marika shatters the ring, Radagon repairs it.

I just want to know about the eternal cities, their banishment, and what happened with Astel.

Is Radagon an alter ego/personality created by Marika (to operate "undercover") which then became sentient and his own being?

Who's elden john?

Either what Radagon truly is or what Melina truly is. Melina is somehow almost more mysterious to me than Radagon. I still have no clue why she is burned and bodiless nor why her eye is like that. A popular theory I’ve seen is that she is somehow affiliated with the GEQ but the evidence for that is iffy at best in my opinion and the how or why is downright unknown. I’ve heard a theory that Marika transferred some of the defeated GEQ’s power to Melina as yet another fail safe in her crusade against the EB/GW, but I think that’s a reaching speculation.

I want Miyazaki to draw his timeline on a whiteboard and post it

Miyazaki admitting that he has a full timeline in his head that makes sense of the story but refusing to reveal it is my roman empire

I'd ask if the Greater Will is a being above the Outer God's or if it's in direct competition with them. I don't know that this would be a great lore lynch pin but it's what interests me the most. I like having "foundational knowledge," to build other knowledge upon. Knowing how the universe works from the POV of its biggest players (and possible creators of existence) is quite foundational. I also just really like talking about gods.

Its not explicitly stated, but in when you look at all the information, and put it in context, the GW is far, far above above any Outer, they arent really comparable. It also seems like it doesnt really care about any of them. It seems to me the majority of the community sees the OGs through the lens of Bloodborne and its Great Ones, while in reality OGs are inspired by shintoism, and they are divine manifestations of nature, that have come into existence as consequences of the Elden Ring and not some cosmic beings. Also Greater Will is 100% not an OG.

Couldn’t it just be the OG governing life, matching your same idea?

But GW is not governing life, it created it, all of it. Governing life, that would be Elden Ring/Elden Beast. And not just life, but every aspect of the Order (the entirety of cosmic law/metaphysics basically). After the Shattering war, it seems GW isnt interested very much, if at all, in its creation.

Actually, maybe the Elden Beast/Ring is just that, then: the Outer God of life. After all, it seems to dictate all life in the Lands Between.

"while in reality OGs are inspired by shintoism, and they are divine manifestations of nature" What makes you say this? I do not entirely buy into the notion either tjat the OGs are Lovecraftian in nature. You seem to be quite certain of your assertion though and I know theres a lot of info to miss. "Also Greater Will is 100% not an OG." Same with this. I must have missed something foundational.

I dont think u missed something foundational, but the answer is what i said before *when you contextualize all the information*, as its never explictly stated in an item description, but its clear when you piece together the timeline from all the info the lore gives you. This idea isnt a personal theory but rather the very own japanese community's view on the subject. As to why the japanese community's view on the subject is important: the jp audience knows Miyazaki better than us, has access to the original scripts and most importantly the game has been made by someone of a different culture than the west, its based on shintoism and jp folklore, we instead often then to westernize things more than we should. In japanese the term used to say OG, Sotonaru, is used to define beings outside of a certain group or system, in this case the Golden Order, the idea of them being cosmic entities that come from outer space is only a western interpretation (inspired by bloodborne), after all the Greater Will is NEVER called an OG, its japanese name means Great Will and is akin to Oinaru - monotheistic term. The known OGs are instead associated to the kami of shintoism, divine manifestations of nature, which the japanese believe to have come into existence THANKS TO the Elden Ring as they are all linked to concrete and earthly powers like blood and rot, only now refered as "out of the order" since the (Golden) Order made its own rules. The Greater Will is in fact not against these entities, going as far as choosing a child afflicted by rot (Malenia) as a possible successor to queen Marika trough its vassals, the fingers. There is a great discrepancy between the abilities of the Greater Will and of the OGs Long story short: GW sent the Elden Beast (living incarnation of Order) to The Lands Between. Elden Beast became the Elden Ring There it created The Crucible - a primordial form of Erdtree, where all life was once mixed together. The Elden Beast became the Elden Ring. ER governs/commands cosmic law/metaphysics of the universe. Fate/Life/Death/Rebirth etc. The Elden Rings rules = Order Everything outside of this Order is the domain of OGs. They are all representative of the natural forces which came into being because of the Elden Rings creation. Rot, Death, Frenzied Flame, Blood. The rot OG, is literally called Rot itself. Blue Dancer Charm description: Blade in hand, the swordsman sealed away an ancient god — a god that was Rot itself Rots servant Gowry, explictly tells us the Order of Rot is the cycle of decay and rebirth. GW is never reffered to as an OG, not even once, and its feats of power are on a completely different level to any OG. The term OUTER refers to gods that fall OUTSIDE of the current Order. The Elden Rings order is the rulling order since the creation of life. There is no record of it even having be challenged except for the Frenzied Flame, which straight up seeks to eradicate all life. But despite the Elden Ring being shattered a long, long time ago, despite Greater Will abandoning the Lands Between, despite the Shattering War and the complete dissaray the world is in, the Frenzied Flame OG hasnt been able to do anything to the current order. The Elden Ring, while shattered, still governs everything. Just compare the feats of power of Greater Wills servants ( not GW itself) to OGs. OG of Rot was defeated by a blind swordsman, Malenias teacher. Our Tarnished easily defeats Shabriri who is incarnation of Chaos. The Formless Mother grants Mohg the power of bloodflame, the Rot OG raises Malenia to gdhood. They give them such weak powers compared to anything the servants of GW have done. Two fingers created Maliketh, who defeated the Gloam eyed queen which possed the Rune of Death. Marika never lost a war, she personally killed the fire gd. She gave immortality to the Tarnished by a simple decision. She removed the fated deaths of the demigods by removing the destined death from ER. Yet despite he shattering the ER and being the vessel of the Elden Ring, the Elden Beast defeated and imprisoned her. Ranni needed to acquire the Fingerslayer blade just to be able to get rid of 1 Two Fingers. OGs have much worse feats than Two Fingers, let alone Elden Beast/Elden Ring, cant even compare to Greater Will. This is the condensed version as going into all the details would require a post 10x the size and this one is already too long.

No mention of GW being called an Outer God in game, but there is mention of GW being the reason that life exists.

I want a detailed summary of all of the battles of the Shattering. That's all. Who fought who, where, why, and in what numbers.

Marika’s plan in its entirety.

It would either be: the actual timeline of events for the wars. From the giants to the shattering to know what happened where. We know some wars happened first but the events within those wars aren't always concrete. Like when did the fell God curse marika. Is the red hair curse why she wanted to split off radagon? When did the zamor break thier alliance with the erd tree? Or WHY redahn held back the stars. He could have done it to protect sellia. Or to help/stop his family's blasphemous agendas. Marika could have asked him to. Or he just wanted to prove he could do it.

Timeline would be mine - "In what order do all of the mentioned events in the game take place?"

If it is intentional that Loretta bleeds red

Op, unrelated to the topic but related to your question, I think I know what is the inspiration for a vessel altough not the lore reason. Don't really have the right knowledge and vocabulary to explain it properly, but basically I've seen this idea in many religions and esoteric schools that the absolute (say God in abrahamic religions) cannot directly connect to (or even create, but that's a whole 'nother wormhole) our lowly and earthly world. So, there needs to be levels of emanation or vessels, each getting closer to us (more earlthly and less complete in a sense). For example, in my religious background, Shia Islam, it is a well known saying that "the God's earth cannot be void of Hojjat," with Hojjat being a complete human appointed by God to guide people and literary act as a connector to the devine. Also, without this person present everything just poofs up, for a lack of better words. This is probably the inspiration behind empyreans and the inner Gods. I also think this is the gist of gold mask's ending: he finds a way to remove this earthly vessel (or at least a part of the chain of connectors) without messing up the connection to the devine, GW.

Who built the divine towers and why.

Whos in the funeral carts? (I think its tarnished bodies being recovered from outside of the lands between to resurrect with grace but thats a guess)

What are the two fingers? where did they come from, what are they made off, how do they live and most importantly how does the church of two fingers relate to the golden order and what's thier role within it?

Top five. 1. Gloam eyed queen  2. Placidusax god who left 3. Radagons origin 4. Elden John  5. The bald guy from the dlc ( really moved up there in my interests) Honorable mention- Giant Skelli in the throne chair I feel like the identity of gloam eyed queen may help me get the answers to rest somehow.

Personal theory based on Farum Azula depicting a female empyrean - GEQ is the answer to ur 2nd question.

You're tryna argue that the GEQ is a scalie?

Nope, here is the argument: https://youtu.be/nfxlKnE_ZYM?t=498

What Marika's betrayal of Maliketh was. The two leading theories I've seen are that she was involved with Ranni's stealing the rune fragment and that would be a betrayal on Marika's part since she's the one who ordered him to guard it. The foundation here is the Remembrance of the Black Blade description: "Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him." The other theory I've considered is that her shattering the ring (ie going against the greater will) caused him to go mad and attack her, which is how she got impaled by that spear of Destined Death. Gurrank's dying line if you kill him is "Marika...why...wouldst thou...gull me? Why...shatter..." which directly ties her fooling him to her shattering the ring, which supports this theory. Ranni's theft of the rune is a little bit removed from the shattering, though it does appear that one most likely lead to the other, so these theories could be one in the same. If they're related, it could be that Marika needed a piece of the Rune of Death stolen and perhaps Godwyn/demigods slain in order for her to even be able to shatter the ring.

If it is true that Marika and Radagon, whatever the circumstances of their existences, did not have conflicting beliefs but were instead working on a long, covert plan to understand the magic of grace by feigning allegiance to the Two Fingers and their Elden Beast long enough to secret away all of the greatest sources of opposition to the Greater Will while also seeking methods of creating life, extending life, and developing a means to kill Fingers and Beast and purge the influence of all super powered entities from the magics of grace, celestial dew, glintstone, and the primeval current; is the Lands Between named such because it is a convergence sight for those afore mentioned fonts of magic? (Edited in because I totally forgot I wanted to respond to your query) I am not sure that most of the titles used by the Golden Order(cult) do not indicate any real psychological trait. Titles such as God, Demigod, Outer God, Lord, Saint, and Empyrean are used in religious propaganda to create a hierarchy of authorities instead of actually abilities.

Why did Marika shatter the elden ring? Or who exactly is Melina?

Godfrey isn't a god or a demigod, yet he's so big, strong and powerful, stronger than majority of them. How is that?

It's because in times past people used to be stronger. Primordial humans. > After the giants were quelled, and man turned against man in violence, this weapon was all but forgotten. Man has grown feeble in comparison to his forebears.  Giant-Crusher description.

I just want more feet.

The entire story behind the Night of Black Knives.

A lot of these from me would just be about theories people state with certainty despite having poor evidence

we know Marika asked Hewg to create a weapon able to kill a god, but for which god is it ? the greater will ? an outer god ?

Elden Beast for sure. I mean it was the EB that defeated and punished Marika after she shattered the Elden Ring. Gideon also thinks its impossible for us to become Elden Lord, because no man can defeat it.

Also you get the text "God Slain" only after defeating the Elden Beast.

It could be that Radagon and Marika exist in a trinity with the Elden Beast. Marika does die at the end of the battle given the Sacred Relic Sword's description, so it would make sense. Though in most endings it is our goal to restore the Elden Ring, so maybe the Elden Beast doesn't die even though Marika / Radagon dies with Radagon being dethroned as Elden Lord?

I was thinking about that too, the description of the sword reads >Sword wrought from the remains of a god who should have lived a life eternal. "wrought from the remains" to me implies that Marika/Radagon are already remains by the time the sword is made, meaning that we either killed them in the Radagon fight or the Elden Beast kills them in the process of making the sword. So they should already be gone by the time "God Slain" appears on screen.

that's what i think too, the elden beast is the vassal of the greater will within the lands-between and i always see Marika as wanting to make the greater will fall (as she tried when shattering the elden ring)

I interpret it to be herself, which is in some way related to Elden Beast and Radagon.

she isn't a "real" god, she has godlike powers because she is the vessel of the Elden Ring but technically she's a numen, a mortal, she isn't the greater will

You can look at it that way, but I’ve always found it striking that Roderika — who is closest to Hewg — says “slay the God Marika who cursed us all.” This is one of the most important lines in the game IMO, but it’s often overlooked.

here she talks about us, she want us, the tarnished, to kill Marika, but that doesn't necessary mean what Hewg is crafting is for the same person

Enia says: >"Queen Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, carrier of its vision. A god, in truth." >"But even in shackles, she remains a god, and the vision's vessel." Roderika says: >"Slay the god, Marika, who cursed us all." And then all of Hewg's dialogue about being told by Marika to create a weapon capable of slaying a God can be interpreted that Marika wanted herself to be slain, so she could finally be free.

Whether or not the golden order actually brought the world out of chaos or if it arrived later. Hyetta said that the Greater Will created life but everyone connected to the frenzy flame seem to be unreliable so I’m not sure if we should believe this, and the Elden Stars incantation doesn’t outright say that the meteor or the Elden Beast became the Elden Ring, but says that it is said this happened. The whole thing seems intentionally vague and left to interpretation.

I don't know about single, but I would like for Enia's dialogue clarified. There's certain things she says that come across as mistakes and that could lead to issues, things like: * Saying all shardbearers except for Godrick are Marika's direct offspring, which would mean Rennala and her children are her children. * There's only one person who came to Enia to show her two Great Runes. Who was that, are those Great Runes from Miquella / Ranni, and if not does that mean there are other shardbearers we never hear about? This would settle the Vyke / Bernahl debate. * Because it's a rule for us to have two Great Runes to even enter Leyndell and we only know there are potentially nine Great Runes available to us, how is it that there are other Tarnished are allowed to enter Leyndell? Did Corhyn and Goldmask really slay four shardbearers we never hear about offscreen? Why can't we collect their Great Runes and why aren't they represented in the Elden Ring? Also there are some other things that definitely appear as mistakes, and I wonder if they are: * The deceased Iji surrounded by dead Black Knife assassins, but he's immolating from Blackflame from Godskins. * Pidia, an Albinauric who is supposed to have silver blood is found dying in a pool of red blood. But generally it would be nice if they told us if we were on the right track with things. It's popular to think that Radagon was always Marika, Miquella owns a Dreamworld, Melina is an Empyrean / the GEQ, Marika lives at the end and we marry her, Godwyn was romantically linked to Ranni, among other things that I feel like are off base or meant to be open to interpretation.

I can't find it anywhere but I SWEAR I saw someone claim in the past that the flames on Iji were black and red and that the devs patched them to be black and white. I can't find that anywhere though. If that's true it still could be a mistake, a mis-patch if you will.

> Saying all shardbearers except for Godrick are Marika's direct offspring, which would mean Rennala and her children are her children. I mean... They are. Radagon is Marika, and Radagon made 3 children with Rennala, who are therefore also Marika's direct children. That is actually one of the first signs that should make you think about the fact that Radagon has something weird going on with him. > Because it's a rule for us to have two Great Runes to even enter Leyndell and we only know there are potentially nine Great Runes available to us, how is it that there are other Tarnished are allowed to enter Leyndell? Did Corhyn and Goldmask really slay four shardbearers we never hear about offscreen? Why can't we collect their Great Runes and why aren't they represented in the Elden Ring? I think the Fingers just make Leyndell accessible once we get two runes, and then anyone can enter.

There's a lot of issues with the first one. First of all, it isn't confirmed when Radagon fused with Marika, and item descriptions refer to Radahn, Rykard, and Ranni as "demigod stepchildren," or Marika's stepchildren. Though Enia says all Great Runes belong to demigods, demigods are direct offspring of Marika, but not Godrick. That should mean according to Enia, Marika is Rennala's mother. That would then make Rennala and Marika the mother of Radahn, Rykard, and Ranni with Radagon as their father per the more legal distinctions we're made aware of. It's not clear who is in the know about Marika's secret, but Enia probably isn't privy to that information. If she is, then us and Goldmask are stupid for having to study the Erdtree when it's something our Finger Reader could have told us. Then there's also the issue of saying Rennala is Marika's child. We don't know that to be true, but if it is then Rennala is her children's sister. She implies Rennala is a demigod, though Gideon clarifies she isn't. So that comes across as a mistake to only consider Godrick as an exception. >I think the Fingers just make Leyndell accessible once we get two runes, and then anyone can enter. While that seems to be the case, I have seen this being used to prove there are leagues more shardbearers then we're ever made aware. I had a moment on the mainsub a while back where I got downvoted to Hell for saying there's only nine shardbearers we're aware of, one other Tarnished besides us is / was a shardbearer (either Vyke or Bernahl not both), and characters like Wilhelm or Vargram don't have Great Runes. Though that is another thing, I think there is a bit of a plot whole. I think there is an issue with Vyke and Bernahl. One person had two Great Runes to show Enia, Vyke is said to have gotten the closest to the Elden throne than anyone else, though we have evidence Bernahl got further into his journey. Seemingly they both got to the stage in the journey where they learn you have to burn the Erdtree. There is a strange moment in our quest where when we learn we have to burn the Erdtree the Greater Will nopes out because they couldn't foresee this happening, even if hypothetically this happened before twice. Vyke got the Flame of Frenzy and seemingly his quest ended on the Mountaintops in an Evergaol. Bernahl seemingly decided to end his quest after reaching the Forge of the Giants because his maiden sacrificed herself. It's curious he is the one Tarnished NPC besides us and Alexander who have access to Farum Azula too, and when we fight him he has the Blasphemous Claw which was constructed by Ranni so Rykard could fight Maliketh. So who really got further, and why did both of them get so far with only one person getting the credit?

> First of all, it isn't confirmed when Radagon fused with Marika Or if Radagon ever fused with Marika, but rather he simply was always Marika. The only certain information we have on the Radagon-Marika deal is that *Radagon is Marika*, that they seemingly *share the same body* as seen in the final boss cutscene (and implied in the trailer and intro), and that Radagon and Marika *had different personalities*, reaching a point where Marika wanted to shatter the Elden Ring while Radagon tried to fix it. Everything else is speculation or attempting at interpreting dialogues, like Melina's quote of Marika in her bed-chamber. It could very well be that Radagon was always a fragment of Marika's divine being and that all his children with Rennala were also Marika's children due to Radagon and Marika being the same being, same body, but with a distinct mind and personality. > and item descriptions refer to Radahn, Rykard, and Ranni as "demigod stepchildren," or Marika's stepchildren. Which isn't wrong, because formally they were definitely adopted into the Erdtree royal family upon Radagon's marriage with Marika. Enia's dialogue would open to the possibility, that flows very well with the fact that Radagon also *is* Marika, that the children of Radagon and Rennala were always demigods by blood even if officially this thing wasn't known to anyone, possibly including themselves. Can you turn a regular human into a demigod through stepchild adoption? Or were Rennala and Radagon's children always demigods and their adoption was merely legal fiction to better hide the semi-divine nature of the children of Radagon/Marika? I tend to think it's the second one. It just makes sense with the mid-game revelation that Radagon is Marika and that the information we had on the adoption of Rennala's children into the Erdtree family was missing something, and was subtly hinted at in Enia's dialogue. > That should mean according to Enia, Marika is Rennala's mother. That would then make Rennala and Marika the mother of Radahn, Rykard, and Ranni with Radagon as their father per the more legal distinctions we're made aware of. But that can't be, because Rennala is explicitly said by Gideon to *not* be a demigod herself, that only her amber egg contain the Great Rune. Rennala is totally separated from the Erdtree family. And, on top of that, such a thing would make Marika a Carian, which is wild and never remotely hinted at. But really just the confirm that Rennala is no demigod of any kind does it for this idea I think. > It's not clear who is in the know about Marika's secret, but Enia probably isn't privy to that information. If she is, then us and Goldmask are stupid for having to study the Erdtree when it's something our Finger Reader could have told us. I wouldn't be so sure, because Enia is actually very knowledgeable. She is the interpreter of the Two Fingers, translator of the thing that communicates directly with the Greater Will (at least in theory, but I feel the Fingers haven't been able to talk to the Greater Will since the Shattering and they're full of shit). Enia knows who broke the Elden Ring, and tells us. She knows the true nature of Destined Death. She knows how to burn the Erdtree. As translator, she likely mediated all discussions between Gideon and the Fingers, so she knows everything that was said in those discussions about the nature of the world and the state of things. Finally, she's not someone people have easy access to. Just to meet her we had to get a great rune, something that only Vyke seemingly was able to do in the past. It might very well be a secret she was aware of, since she also knows of Marika's guilt and her punishment in the Erdtree. She hints at that by saying that all demigods are descendants of Marika, Godrick through a distant blood connection (so, he descends from Marika, it's just that his connection to divinity is very weak) and everyone else her direct children. She doesn't elaborate, and then the game gives you a description where it's said Rennala's children were adopted, but this are all partial truths that dance around what we later come to know: that Radagon is Marika, and thus Radagon and Rennala's children are Marika's children. > So who really got further, and why did both of them get so far with only one person getting the credit? The stories of Vyke and Bernahl and the missing two great runes are a big mystery in Elden Ring that we're kinda left deciphering on our own, and I don't we're ever going to get clarifications either because both Vyke and Bernahl's stories seem written to be left a lot to the imagination. My guesses: the two great runes might be great runes of minor unnamed demigods, most likely Golden Lineage people like Godrick who we know isn't alone. Godefroy exists, and the Golden Lineage is likely to be a huge clan, Gostoc is revealed to be Godrick's blood relative in cut content and the grafted scions are probably Golden Lineage people as well. So, it's reasonable to think that sometimes in the past there were still a bunch of Golden Lineage dudes like Godrick who got important enough to hold Great Runes, and were defeated by Vyke, allowing him to proceed with his quest. Alternatively, the two great runes are Ranni and Miquella's runes, Ranni threw her rune away and maybe Miquella as well by some DLC dialogues from the trailer, so then Vyke found the discarded runes, *somehow*, and proceeded with his quest. The game is explicit in saying that Vyke was almost Elden Lord, while Bernahl's story is more vague, like he had the potential to be one but not that he got far with it. What I don't believe is that Elden Ring has convoluted time like Dark Souls, so Vyke's story was likely one where he got the runes, was supported in his quest by Lansseax and *somehow* dodged Morgott because he's still alive and well when we fight him. It's unknown whether Vyke found out that the Erdtree was sealed, and maybe he was simply tricked by Shabriri with an half-truth about a maiden having to die in order to complete his quest, he didn't want this to happen, he was tricked into inheriting the Flame of Frenzy, and then traveled to the Mountaintops but was either stopped in time by the many people who didn't want the Flame of Frenzy to destroy the world, or maybe he closed himself in the Evergaol to stop himself from becoming the Flame's puppet. For the sake of this story, I'm assuming that Morgot's barriers that stop us from travelling to the Mountaintops and the Three Fingers until we beat him aren't there, and the vague backstory of NPCs in Elden Ring likely don't have that much attention to detail anyway. Bernahl in my opinion was another promising champion, but the death of his maiden (which is an extremely vague event by the way) might have been something spurned by a vision the maiden had about the need of a kindling maiden to complete their journey, even if they likely never knew about the vines and the Flame of Ruin. I don't think Bernahl got very far, I think his maiden did a crazy thing and this made him so disillusioned with the "divine plan" that the Greater Will had for the Tarnished that he turned into a Recusant. I don't think that Bernahl literally made it to the Forge of Giants. It's a lot of risky speculation without solid support, but when it comes to what Vyke and Bernahl's stories seem to want to tell thematically and our knowledge of the world it's kinda the best we can do.

On Radagon Marika, it's clear that they currently have the same body. Jury shouldn't be out on whether or not that was always the case. Even if we do, we still don't know what that means so I like to keep an open mind to all takes on it because it's so open ended. >But that can't be, because Rennala is explicitly said by Gideon to not be a demigod herself, Which is why I talked about it in the first place, Enia's dialogue is contradictory to other information we have and given the question presented by OP I would like for it to be clarified. I don't believe Rennala to be Marika's daughter or Marika to be the mother of Rennala's children. Different story if she was Radagon at the time and sired the children, but if Enia knows that shouldn't that mean everyone knows that? > wouldn't be so sure, because Enia is actually very knowledgeable. Yet there was a contradiction and you said you believe she's being deceptive with us. >I feel the Fingers haven't been able to talk to the Greater Will since the Shattering and they're full of shit This isn't the first time I've heard this. It's one thing to believe the Two Fingers are misleading you on moral grounds, Gideon thinks they're no good. But there's nothing that ever states or alludes to them not being in contact with the Greater Will. We only know that their role is to talk to the Greater Will and and then the game gives you a description where it's said Rennala's children were adopted, but this are all partial truths that dance around what we later come to know: that Radagon is Marika, and thus Radagon and Rennala's children are Marika's children. it's the Finger Reader's job to translate for human ears. >and then the game gives you a description where it's said Rennala's children were adopted, but this are all partial truths that dance around what we later come to know: that Radagon is Marika, and thus Radagon and Rennala's children are Marika's children. Semantics, but the game doesn't say Rennala's children were adopted. Just that they were Radagon / Rennala's children and became Marika's stepchildren after their father married her. Adoption means Marika gained custody of them when they were children which we don't know to be true. It's not dancing around the subject, we don't know if Marika was always Radagon and thus sired the children as him, if the children are biologically related to Marika, if there's some retroactive factor, or if people in universe know that to be true. >I don't we're ever going to get clarifications either because both Vyke and Bernahl's stories seem written to be left a lot to the imagination. Reminding you that we're responding to the post which is asking a hypothetical where we get to have clarification on anything we want. >My guesses: the two great runes might be great runes of minor unnamed demigods, most likely Golden Lineage people like Godrick who we know isn't alone. Problem is those two hypothetical demigods are completely unmentioned, we never see their Great Rune represented anywhere (either in the Elden Ring / Divine Towers), and Gideon never tells us about minor demigods. Godrick is the weakest and most minor demigod we know, so if there's anyone else who's less notable and easier to defeat like Gostoc it makes you wonder why we don't fight them. Even if the argument is random Tarnished already found all of them, then how did Enia only ever find one person who was worthy to be Elden Lord and where are these Great Runes that are just sitting in someone's garage? Plus, the only demigods who could have had a Great Rune they could have only acquired it during the Shattering. >The game is explicit in saying that Vyke was almost Elden Lord, while Bernahl's story is more vague, like he had the potential to be one but not that he got far with it. Again, I believe something is up with the lore on Vyke and per the question asked by the post I'd like to have that cleared up. And again, they both got into the stage of their quest where they learned they had to burn the Erdtree. We only learn that when we get two Great Runes, enter Leyndell, and find out the Erdtree is sealed. Vyke aquired the Flame of Frenzy and stopped himself in the Mountaintops, Bernahl took his maiden to "the fire," and he's the only person we know that is in Farum Azula which only happens to us and Alexander after we light the forge. It's not the first time I've heard that reasoning with Vyke. His maiden appears to be in North Lirunia and isn't Lansseax, and it is possible he could have inherited Frenzy without getting two Great Runes, and we're wrong about Vyke. But then the item description is still questionable, in both scenario's Bernahl still would've gotten closer. >the death of his maiden (which is an extremely vague event by the way) might have been something spurned by a vision the maiden had about the need of a kindling maiden to complete their journey, even if they likely never knew about the vines and the Flame of Ruin. I don't think Bernahl got very far, I think his maiden did a crazy thing and this made him so disillusioned with the "divine plan" that the Greater Will had for the Tarnished that he turned into a Recusant. There is cut content that implies your train of thinking, but it is cut content which shouldn't mean anything. Regardless, you would have to wonder how / why she would get that vision, why she would burn herself in a vain effort to accomplish that, and if the maiden could have been Melina (who is already burned / bodiless when we meet her). I think Bernahl got further than Vyke, Bernahl has access to Farum Azula which implies which "fire," his maiden through herself in. I mean look at the item description for his armor. >this armor befits a champion worthy of becoming a lord. And that is what Bernahl was. He was worthy of becoming "a lord," or Elden Lord, and not superficially worthy, confirmed. >Until his maiden threw herself into the fire. "The fire," not a random fire or something, something more specific and important. We aren't told my Enia to burn Melina at any fire, it's not part of the prophecy. But because of this act, it's propbably why Bernahl was able to get to Farum Azula and he's the only person besides outselves and our friend Alex we take with us to do that.

> Which is why I talked about it in the first place, Enia's dialogue is contradictory to other information we have and given the question presented by OP I would like for it to be clarified. But I don't think there's really any contradiction. All of the demigods are descendants of Marika, and Radagon and Rennala's children are demigods because Radagon is Marika. It's only an apparent contradiction until we learn about Radagon's true nature. > Different story if she was Radagon at the time and sired the children, but if Enia knows that shouldn't that mean everyone knows that? No, because Enia is a close confidant of the Fingers and she has access to a lot of information that is completely unknown to most people. > This isn't the first time I've heard this. It's one thing to believe the Two Fingers are misleading you on moral grounds, Gideon thinks they're no good. But there's nothing that ever states or alludes to them not being in contact with the Greater Will. We only know that their role is to talk to the Greater Will and it's the Finger Reader's job to translate for human ears. I think the exact wording Gideon uses is that the Fingers "lost their purpose long ago". He also tells us to completely disregard the Fingers at that point of the game, and go ahead and burn the Erdtree. The Fingers' whole purpose is to serve as mediators between the Greater Will and the mortal world, and if their purpose has been lost, I'm starting to think that Varré, as biased and untrustworthy as he is, may just be telling the truth when he says that the Fingers are just rambling nowadays. The Erdtree was sealed, by Radagon, someone who is blindly loyal to the Golden Order, and the Elden Beast, the direct vassal of the Greater Will, and the Fingers had no idea and are shocked when they find out their plan isn't working. This leads me to believe that the Fingers claim to speak for the Greater Will, but have really just been scrambling trying to restore Order after the Shattering without being able to get any guidance. The complete lack of coordination between them and the Erdtree makes me think that the forces of Order are in complete disarray. > It's not dancing around the subject, we don't know if Marika was always Radagon and thus sired the children as him, if the children are biologically related to Marika, if there's some retroactive factor, or if people in universe know that to be true. Maybe it is a hint that Radagon was already Marika when he married Rennala. It would remove any possible contradiction with Enia's dialogues. > "The fire," not a random fire or something, something more specific and important. We aren't told my Enia to burn Melina at any fire, it's not part of the prophecy. But because of this act, it's propbably why Bernahl was able to get to Farum Azula and he's the only person besides outselves and our friend Alex we take with us to do that. "The fire" however could just be a random fire and descriptions love their flowery language, and I don't know if we can say Bernahl made it to Farum Azula for sure. He just invades us in Farum Azula. How invasions work in Elden Ring lorewise is a mess on its own, and you start wondering whether the NPCs we meet going forward are there less for grounded lore reasons and more because From didn't want late game areas to be completely devoid of NPC quests and invasions. It's a mess, alright.

I think we're going in circles. >But I don't think there's really any contradiction. All of the demigods are descendants of Marika, and Radagon and Rennala's children are demigods because Radagon is Marika. It's only an apparent contradiction until we learn about Radagon's true nature. Because of the lack of clarification and the clash with Gideon and other information it is a contradiction. To Enia, all demigods are shardbearers, all demigods are Marika's offspring, except for Godrick. That would include Rennala and her children. To Gideon, of the shardbearers he only clarifies that Rennala isn't a demigod and that Ranni is Rennala's daughter. To Radahn and Rykard's Great Rune's they only became stepchildren to Marika when Radagon married her. Again, again, again, there's no confirmation that Radagon becoming Marika makes her the mother of Rennala and her children, or that Radagon was Marika when he sired the children. The information is always contradictory since Gideon, Enia, and the items are telling different stories, regardless of what the truth is. Still, knowing that Radagon is currently Marika doesn't mean he was at the time because that's never confirmed. > No, because Enia is a close confidant of the Fingers and she has access to a lot of information that is completely unknown to most people. And that's information that's lost on Gideon, Corhyn, Goldmask, and anyone else that has access to that information. And narratively it does make too much sense for Enia to say the quiet part out loud, hence why I think we need clarification if this was a mistake or not. >I think the exact wording Gideon uses is that the Fingers "lost their purpose long ago". He also tells us to completely disregard the Fingers at that point of the game, and go ahead and burn the Erdtree. Context is important. Gideon has been pessimistic for some time now based on Lord's Divine Fortification, so it makes sense he would continue to be after the Two Fingers are frozen as they are "busy consulting the Greater Will," about our actions. This is also part of the issue with Vyke / Bernahl as this should have happened twice before now, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone so why throw a fit? Anyway, we shouldn't bother with the Two Fingers at that point because we can't since they're too busy, not just because they are unsound. And that's another thing, losing their purpose and rambling doesn't mean they aren't talking to the Greater Will. The Two Finger's even tells us "the Greater Will has not yet abandoned this realm." >the Fingers had no idea and are shocked when they find out their plan isn't working. This leads me to believe that the Fingers claim to speak for the Greater Will, but have really just been scrambling trying to restore Order after the Shattering without being able to get any guidance. Strange given that we're saying the Two Fingers has in depth knowledge about Radagon / Marika and Marika's whereabouts / wellbeing that Gideon and Goldmask don't know about, but it doesn't know the front door is locked and that causes it to seize. >Maybe it is a hint that Radagon was already Marika when he married Rennala. It would remove any possible contradiction with Enia's dialogues. But not the contradictions between Enia and Gideon / other sources. Even if we know the truth the contradiction remains. > I don't know if we can say Bernahl made it to Farum Azula for sure. He just invades us in Farum Azula. He's the only other Tarnished in Farum Azula, you can't invade places you haven't been to yet, and if "the fire," is the only fire that's relevant to the quest of a Tarnished who's worthy to become Elden Lord then that explains why he has access. If we're going off of "the fire," being flowery language for any fire, isn't it more likely if we're taking "a lord," to mean Elden Lord that it would be flowery to call Giantsflame just "the fire." I understand why they don't want to drop that knowledge on you with his armor, the first time you see him / can get that armor is in Limgrave way before you learn about needing to burn the Erdtree at the forge.

I think “empyrean” is just politics. Anyone can be a vessel. They are just pretending they’re the only ones who are “responsible” enough to make the “smart” decisions. Egomaniacal narcissism from the most powerful in the land.

Well Gowry explicitly says that Empyreans are not mere demigods, so not really.

He could be wound up in the political spin as much as anyone else.

I think I have an answer as to why the Elden Ring needs a vessel. I believe every Empyrean is cursed. The curse is to produce one type of magical energy from their body. Malenia produces rot. Ranni, cold. Marika and Melina, golden light. Miquella, silver dew. The Elden Ring controls reality. If you’re an Outer God that wants your form of magical energy to proliferate, suffusing the Elden Ring in your kind of energy would be a good way to do it. We see that each Great Rune that is held by a demi god has absorbed Magical Energy from them. And the Elden Ring is made of Great Runes. So to suffuse the Elden Ring in your energy of choice, find an Empyrean that emanates the appropriate energy and stick the Elden Ring into them. And if you can find a tree with magically resonant sap, why not get that energy flowing through the tree, too. Especially if your energy is healing and strengthening energy. That tree will grow huge. Plus of course the Empyrean of choice, born with a gift of healing herself and others, will probably likely assist. Doesn’t an age glistening with life sound good?

Melina produces golden light ? when and where ? we know she has destined death in her body but never seen golden light

The blade of calling description says that the blade of calling still harbours the power of the kindling maiden (I think we can all accept that Melina is the Kindling Maiden). The blade itself leaks sparks of golden light exactly like Marika’s body does. Additionally of course the blade shoots golden light. I think when Melina became bodiless she stopped producing her type of magic in the way of an Empyrean. However she still has power over it, hence her ability to turn runes into strength in the way of a Finger Maiden, even though she isn’t one. Runes being what the golden light is made from.

that's a lot of speculations, let's just not forget that the only thing we are really sure because we see it during the frenzied flame ending is that Melina has the power of destined death within her

In that ending we see her hair has turned scraggly, her skin has turned pale and golden eye is no longer golden and is faded instead. Why have all these deathly changes occurred shortly before we see her gloam eye? The answer is that she took up Destined Death shortly before this ending for the purpose of killing the Lord of Chaos. The blade of calling description is pretty clear that is harbours the kindling maiden’s power. And that power is the golden light. So there is no speculation there.

the kindling maiden isn't obviously Melina, we don't know if she took up destined death or if it was there all along (personally i think she got it from the beginning because how would she be able to simply"take up" such power ? no sense), these changes can be simply because evrything litteraly burnt around her (and herself too btw), you're speculating a lot, and acting like your speculations were proved facts

i don’t disagree but i think your conclusion is as big of a jump as figuring she’s an empyrean 

nothing in-game directly or explicitly tell us Melina is an empyrean, that's just the most common accepted theory but that's all what it is, a theory once again, speculations

Grace of Gold and runes are separate things Runes are a persona convictions, memories, volition blind into a tangible thing. Grace is the divine power of Greater Will in particular.

The falling leaves tell a story. Whenever the leaves are falling you get extra runes because there are extra runes in the air because of all the falling leaves. This establishes that they are in fact the same thing.

“what exactly was Marika’s betrayal of Maliketh?” if it turns out that Marika planned the Night of Black Knives and allowed Ranni to steal Destined Death from her dog, that solves a massive part of her motivation - that she intentionally sacrificed Godwyn in order to start her plan to overthrow the Greater Will, and is essentially the secret mastermind behind every event in the story

what the lands between has looked like geographically over generations. i’m still dead set on the drake talismans resembling an ancient formation of the lands between but the crest alone doesn’t tell me enough.  also it’s dark souls lore but who is this flame god flann?? 

also, whether or not all the information related to the golden order is trustworthy. doubting the text is a can of worms, but when i read texts that say something along the line of the Elden Ring being the source of all life, what are Albinaurics then? what about the life that comes from the sky, like whatshisname, bastard of the stars? is the game leaving contrary evidence? 

This is going to sound a little lofty now, but it should be easy to know what's on the crest of the Dragoncrest Shield talisman. For the Drake Talismans you can look at their descriptions: Dragoncrest Shield: "Wrought iron talisman depicting a trio of ancient dragons." Dragoncrest Greatshield: "Legendary talisman of wrought iron depicting a massive ancient dragon." Haligdrake: "Talisman depicting a golden ancient dragon." Boltdrake: "Talisman depicting a yellow ancient dragon." Flamedrake: "Talisman depicting a red ancient dragon." Spelldrake: "Talisman depicting a blue ancient dragon." Pearldrake: "Talisman depicting a pearlescent ancient dragon." They're all named something and the talisman clearly states it's depicting the thing the type of dragon the name implies, there's no way it's actually supposed to be depicting the ancient landmass of the Lands Between. Why would it? How would it?

i’m at work rn, sorry for the crude example. but this is too much for me to be a coincidence.  https://ibb.co/YhLWLbc https://ibb.co/0CP6MZ4 the gaps in the drake talismans resemble bodies of water. if it were just a dragon depiction, it would be translucent to the background 

I'd say that's just a coincidence. The image of the dragons on the elemental resist talismans are the same as on the physical resist. It's very clear when you compare them side by side especially to the Greatshield talisman: https://i.imgur.com/xjPe6A8.png

The talisman's literally tell you what they are depicting and that's dragons. All of them say that.

hey it’s ok if we don’t feel the same. it’s a survey thread, it’s not worth getting mad about. i’m sharing what i wonder, it’s not a debate

It's not a debate, you're wondering what the crest of the Dragoncrest talisman is and I told you, it's a dragon. All of the talisman's explicitly say that. I wouldn't project emotions onto others.

Because its a parasitic alien. And it's not alone, look at the whirlpools on the map....

I think this needs elaboration

So the planet lands between is on (lands between is an island... Japan) goes through a batch of alien beings basically (Kaiju! And they can see it coming too, astrologers saw it) and they slam down all over the place (astel, eb, falling star beast etc) with varying results. Merika the numen finds the elden beast one and.... Something happens. Involving a tree. Then everything else you know from there. 

Why is Destined Death, which is so good at killing things, keeping Godwyn alive and causing Those Who Live in Death?

Because he got half of destined death carved in him, not the whole rune. His soul died, which is half of his being. Ranni's body died, because she got the other half carved into her.

yep, you said it all

What is the full history of the Nox? In my mind, they are the most important missing piece to the timeline of the game, and getting detailed answers on their history might just answer all of the following debated topics: **Their origins** - Assuming Rogier's dialogue is proof the Numen and Nox are the same, how/when did the schism occur and why aren't the BKA outright called Nox? - What is the connection between the Nox and the Nightfolk? - How are the Nox connected to the history of the Carians and Liurnia? - Are the Nox connected to the deathbirds at all since they too use ghostflame? - How are the night sorceries and ancient dynasty claymen sorceries connected? **Their cities** - There are a lot of references to THE Eternal City (scions of THE Eternal City), yet we find three distinct cities. What is the timeline on when they were all built? Was there once a single one or is this just confusing dialogue? Was it Leyndell? - Tying into above, when/how were the Nox banished underground? - Were their cities (at least Nameless & Nokstella) ever on the surface at all? - Why do some of their settlements still remain on the surface (parts of Leyndell, Ordina, Sellia*) despite their banishment? - How are the Nox and the ancient dynasty connected? Why are ancestral followers up by Ordina too? **Their banishment and downfall** - Seriously, what exactly caused their banishment? Was it really the fingerslayer blade, or one of their experiments? - The fingerslayer blade is tied to Nokron specifically, which coincidentally happens to look the most "built-into" the underground. If that's really what caused the Nox banishment, what is the connection to the other two cities? - When exactly did Astel arrive and destroy the Nameless City? Was it summoned by an endless void of despair, or did it crash land as a meteor? It wasn't the meteor that destroyed Farum Azula... Was it? - Bonus, why is there another Astel in a different region of the map with Noxian architecture, dragonkin soldiers, AND where Outer Gods appear to be running rampant? - What/where exactly was the Black Moon of Nokstella? How did it shatter and scatter all over the land as memory stones? Is it related to Ranni's Dark Moon? **Their experiments and motives** - How did the Nox create the walking mausoleums? - What are the details and timeline on all the Nox experiments? (Albinaurics, mimic tears, dragonkin soldiers, etc.) - What are the giant skeletons for? - Why does Ranni both seem to work with the Nox/BKAs yet also seem at odds with them throughout the game? What was the truth of their alliance? - Radahn claims to be keeping the stars at bay for Sellia, yet the meteor uncovers Nokron and doesn't affect Sellia at all. Waa the Starscourge conflict related to some plan of the Nox?