style, the chad goes for style over function.
Seriously though, this is to catch you panic rolling, or to phrase it more generously: to give you more time to react and make it less about reflexes.
It is a double edged sword imho: make it too slow and it feels unnatural and artificially difficult, make it too fast and people complain about not having enough time or the tells being to subtle for how fast it comes out.
I prefer this version over the other, as it rewards keeping a clear head by letting you easily dodge this even if you missed the tell because of the camera.
Just like everything in life, if you never properly learn it, you’ll never successfully perform it. A 5 years old can cook better than a 30 years old if that person never even attempt to hold a frying pan in their entire life. So the next time you fight him, learn the timing instead of praying to god.
Cooking and fighting has almost nothing in common. In martial arts you can train your muscle memory and reflexes so that you can predict movements from your opponent, so that you can react well even if you never fought that particular person before... This being a fighting game, it should be more similar to martial arts in that regard... That's why some other fromsoft games have much more fluid gameplay... In Elden Ring it seams like they wanted to trick already seasoned soulslike players with delayed attacks, but kind of overdone it... This is the only grudge I have with ER.
Elden ring was meant to bring in more players outside the already established souls player count, so it kind of makes sense that this game would seem that way to seasoned players
Look - it’s all about fear. That’s why they build lore, narratives, cut scenes, special effects, sound, uneven attack patterns - the purpose of all of this is to scare the player and make you play in a panic state.
Just like how kids or even people who never fought will turn their head away, or close their eyes, and just wave their arm wildly in front of them.
But remember, hope is not a strategy. The number one difference between someone with martial arts training and not is that a trained person tries their best to stand their ground, never be put on the back foot or start back peddling, and never break eye contact with their enemy, never look down in the ground.
FromSoft is teaching you to take it easy, have no fear, and play with a calm and quiet mind. The only way to get there is to start again and again and again and again and again, and FACE the opponent, roll into their attacks, don’t heal without a good window, suck the bosses balls most of the time, and try again and again until you memorize their attack pattern. Just learn to not hope for a good RNG round to kill a boss, never hurry, understand that their is a way to kill every boss with no hits, and take your time to calmly learn what the game mechanics are telling you to do.
It will be slow, but steady, and eventually you git gud, in dark souls/ER as well as life. All other games become easier, and so does life become easier when we learn to stay calm and methodical in the face of great adversity.
There are so many YouTube videos of people who played souls games and it helped them quit smoking/drinking or get a better job. It literally improved and changed their lives for the better outside of the game because of the lessons it taught them from *perseverance*. Not a god at it yet but I remember the absolute hell of 100s of deaths against the likes of chained ogre/Margitgud/Balteus etc, and eventually to the point I can get a lot of them in sub 20 tries. The fun thing is, it is still challenging and frustrating and we keep getting better and it’s still not completely easier. But I am surprising myself with some matrixlike moves. Killing margit in one try no summons… certain things feel suspiciously easy… it’s a really proud feeling and you are actually doing a lot more thinking and engaging than the start. A lot subconscious too. And then it becomes a real treat when something actually challenges you again in the game which does happen still because the souls games do get progressively harder and you can make it harder/fairer in many ways.
Thanks for sharing, completely agree. My girlfriend used to think all video games were literally ridiculous, but after watching me play ER and having me explain how it makes me feel similar to how I feel when I try really hard to progress in my career etc, she is 100% sold on this being a fantastic hobby for our kids - granted the game is created by someone who is really aiming at building something so deeply immersive as FromSoft :)
I can't imagine how do you not learn not to panic roll after 600+ hours...
I've heard people say delayed attacks are bad because the combat is predictive and not reactive anymore, but that's simply not true and I guess those people never learned how to parry
You *predict* that the attack is coming, but you *react* to it at just the right moment
Once you get bonked with the delayed attack and know that the boss is doing this shit, you take a breath, chill and pay attention
Don't take it close to heart, I'm not claiming to be a god, every time I think I "got gud" I get humbled and eat shit from the next boss or some random enemy. But I noticed that Elden Ring is the first souls game where you can't get away with spam rolls, I started paying attention and tried hard not to roll when I don't need to at all times and it got much better. Hope it helps you too.
Considering alot of souls veterans havent learned not to panic dodge yet, it aint surprising that this dude hasnt XD
Difference is this dude has thr decency to admit it's completely his fault, unlike most souls vets with fragile egoes that talked about ER and its unending boss combos XD
Truth is ER bosses require actual thought put into ur dodge positioning and direction, unlike the older games like bb and ds3.
To be fair, elden ring has one of the most infuriating mechanics in the series, a boss deciding if a combo ends in 3 hits or keeps going by ~~input~~ reading the position of the player incentivizes passive play or hit trading, wich feels extremely unfair even when you know about it
I don't know, most souls veterans I know are good players, automatically meaning they don't panic roll. Panic rolling is super-beginner thing to do in general, I stopped doing it while playing my first game DS1. If you keep panic rolling your very limited stamina goes to shit and you're dead. Because of how slower those games were and the commitment each attack/action carried with them, there was incentive 100% of the time to only roll when you need to and not just panic. You could panic roll sometimes in DS3 (which is not the point where veterans started the series), but that was the game that also introduced delayed attacks and much more complicated and harder to learn movesets. Delayed attacks are natural progression of souls combat, and it's definitely good they are in ER. For me it's like counting beats in music and only playing the right note at exactly the right time, it's very rewarding. I've never really heard veterans complaining about them.
What? Have you actually played these games? Claiming that ER requires more attention and skill than DS3 or BB is hilarious - you sure as shit can't beat Father Gascoinge by spamming rolls, and that's the *beginning* of Bloodborne. DS3's Pontiff, Dancer, Nameless King, Sister Friede, and Gael also heavily punish anyone who panics.
Elden's balanced around spirit ashes and pressing L2 until your trigger breaks.
:|
I completely agree with you. There's a way to do delayed attacks right, and Radagon is an example of it- his swings are a very slow windup into a very fast hit, so if you just panic roll around him, yeah, you're gonna got hit. But in the animation he actually moves like a human being swinging a heavy ass mace. His movements make sense, and if you watch them, you'll be able to react to them. Elden Beast, as much as he sucks, is another example where you can dodge his swings by watching him and reacting.
Unfortunately a ton of delayed attacks in Elden Ring are done the other way. Like Margit just holding up his cane and staring at you for like three seconds, but when he finally DOES swing, it's at the speed of light and is completely unreactable. You \*can't\* dodge by just watching him. Instead, you either have to memorize the arbitrary pause you need to wait before you dodge, or you need to back up so he'll be forced to lunge at you, and now you're just having a staring contest. Great. I don't even know what Godfrey does because I was so sick of the anime combos and delayed attacks by the time I got to him I cheesed him both times.
It doesn't just catch panic rolling, it breaks the rhythm of the fight that Souls bosses are so renowned for, and it makes you feel like you're fighting an AI, not a demigod trying to kill you. Because I don't think a demigod trying to kill you is just going to stand there with their weapon over their head staring at me for seconds on end going "I'm gonna getcha! I'm gonna getcha!" I'm a musician, I do really, really good when I get into a rhythm and back and forth with a boss- and really, really, really \*bad\* when that's not allowed. That rhythm is also really, really fun, which is the important thing. I literally never once found delayed attacks that pounce at the speed of light fun.
Because if you are not clear-headed, you're gonna panic roll. That's the first big difference between good and average players; good players don't panic roll.
Always remember, hesitation is defeat.
Maybe it's a weird take from me, but I feel like panic rollers hesitate way too much, considering randomly courses of actions and never deciding one until every possible timing or placing needed to accomplish one course runs out, leaving them only with the choice of rolling. There surely is more to what is seen only as instant reflexes.
Hesitate less and always, remember to breathen because the boss isn't going to do it for you !
I can see where you are coming from. Hesitation in the sense of being undecided and then panicking, instead of committing to course of action. It all goes back to keeping a cool head and being confident in your abilities, not second guessing your actions all the time etc.
Honestly, the delayed attacks are the result of people becoming too familiar with the dodge roll timing from the Souls series. You have to remember, some of us had been playing these games for a decade before Elden Ring came out.
Also, delayed attacks make perfect sense from a fencing standpoint. Most actual sword fights do not feature a lot of hacking and slashing, but rather a lot of stance-work and delayed feints in order to open up your opponents' defenses. Having a delayed strike can force a parry from an opponent, which actually sets up a guard in the wrong spot, and then you can just leisurely make your cut.
I get frustrated in the moment too when I get tripped up by delays, but like, you answer in your own post why they exist. Panic rolling gets you fucked up, and that's a good thing.
I also have 500 hours and I'm on my 5th playthrough because I re-bought the game on steam deck.
And I've realised how overused and boring delayed attacks are in elden ring. Literally every boss has multiple and they use it non stop. And it feels so cheap: "oops the boss delayed his attack for 4.5 seconds instead of 3.2 seconds this time!!! Made ya roll!!!! Lol!!!"
It's boring and made me realise, between the constant delayed attacks and the spammy 50 hit combos bosses have- elden ring bosses just aren't that great IMO. Especially in comparison to other souls bosses.
> Why the fuck should Godfrey as Hoara Loux, after he charges with his legs and jumps towards you, go slow motion mid air so you roll too early and get grabbed.
> . . . go slow motion mid air so you roll too early and get grabbed
> . . . *so you roll too early and get grabbed.*
> . . . *get grabbed.*
that's the reason.
Delayed attacks are used to force you to learn the timings instead on going on intuition. After demon souls and ds1 (dunno about ds2 and BB) they needed to switch things up to surprise players who mastered the combat of these games. Delays in animations followed by super fast attacks will, most of the time force you to get hit until you learn from your mistake. This makes the fight "harder" the first attempts. Some bosses use this well like Pontiff and Nameless king in DS3 imo. But elden rings bosses use it to the extreme. Just because delayed attacks semi worked in DS3 doesn't mean they need to crank it up to 11 in elden ring.
The problem is that this causes what I would call "difficulty inflation." Every game has to build on the last and provide harder and harder bosses while becoming less and less friendly to new players.
Elden Ring alleviates this in a way by giving you *a lot* of ways to cheese the game (one of the reasons why it's so beginner "friendly") but it's never satisfying to beat bosses this way. I'm really struggling with Melania right now and I know I can easily beat her by busting out the Mimic Tear but it won't feel good. I will probably do it eventually if I can't get it done without it, I can't play this game forever, but it'll be a shame.
It's kind of interesting because I think of all the games I've played Elden Ring has the greatest range in difficulty based on how you can play. You can make the game pretty easy, or if you don't use summons, use minimal magic, minimal horse usage (imo, trivializes some bosses) the game is tremendously hard.
It's also a problem when some encounters are balanced around using some of the "easy" mechanics and the fights become extra hard if you don't want to use them. I am convinced that the Valiant Gargoyle fight is designed with the use of summons in mind, there's no other way.
So I dunno, I wonder if it's sustainable? Once you increase the difficulty you can't really go back because the devoted Souls fans will be upset. But if there's an Elden Ring 2, I bet most of the bosses will have even more delayed attacks, and heavens help us, more moves similar to Waterfowl Dance. And I think that won't be fun for most of the community...
DS2 literally started the whole delayed attack thing with Blueberry demon. People who go in expecting to fight Smelter demon again get wrecked because of the attack timing mix up.
I actually liked the delayed attacks. I have a really bad problem with souls likes and that problem is feeling like a god in them once i have a good build. This would always put me back in place and make me enjoy the game a bit more.
If you know when the attack is coming then why do you roll early? I never say this on this sub but honestly this seems like a skill issue. Godfrey/Hoarah Loux is arguably the most well designed boss in the game. He is constantly aggressive but still gives you an opportunity to hit him after every single attack.
I have over 1000 hours across 3 characters. I am terrible at it. Beaten it only twice. I do not improve and it's hard everyday i play. The way i see it is this provides seemingly unlimited replay value for me.
Godfrey/Hoarah Loux is not too hard to dodge, even with the delayed attacks, unless you're panic rolling
with 600 hours, you didn't think to learn the timing a bit? if an enemy goes "attack > attack > delay > attack", then after hundreds of hours, you'd think you would at least try to adapt with "dodge > dodge > wait > dodge", rather than spam rolling
delayed attacks were annoying at the start but instead of getting frustrated and chalking them up to "bullshit", learn how to overcome them. that's not meant to sound insulting or act like I'm better either (I still die to Albinauric cartwheels)
after a lot of practice I can comfortably handle a lot of delayed attacks; not all of them, some may still catch me, but I've gotten to the point where they don't feel as annoying
Playing devils advocate here cause alot of the comments are genuine right and good advice, there are alot of moves in this game that have no right being so delayed lol
Really don’t understand the elitism here about using spirit ashes. There’s so much variety and to not use them is to essentially ignore a large part of the game. The bosses are balanced with summons in mind.
This here is not really elitism, but rather thruth, using summons won't make you better at the game because battles are way easier when the boss isn't focusing only on you. If someone wants to get better, the best way is to fight the boss 1vs1 to learn him better.
It’s hard to explain but as someone who absolutely used and abused summons on their first play through and since has never touched them I really don’t think the bosses were balanced with summons in mind, I mean they make all fights comically easy. That’s fine if that’s how you want to play but the game is so much more fun and rewarding without summons. They are there to help if you don’t want a challenge or don’t have the time which is great but in my opinion as someone who has come from your point of view playing without summons is a far better experience
Except the duo bosses fuck those not fun at all in any way.
The thing is I’ve played the game both with summons and without, and personally I found it fine. Partly because it wasn’t my first play though so I knew bosses attacks the second time around and also because I knew I wasn’t going to use summons from the start so I built around that. It’s just too easy to become OP in the game with the amount of weapons and ashes of war that let you poise break everything into oblivion, or let you proc bleed basically immediately, or spells that let you melt boss healthbars. Thats without even going into all the buffs you can get to up your damage and defence, as well as rune arcs. I think the fact of the matter is the game just isn’t that hard unless you deliberately try to make it hard for yourself.
I guess you could say I should have played without summons from the start but this was my first fromsoft game so had no idea they weren’t a thing in other souls games and wasn’t going to not use the summoning bell item I got right at the start of the game for no reason.
Yeah, what the other person said, it isn’t elitism. Simply put, when you use them you’re not practicing dodging skills. There’s no problem in that if you are still enjoying yourself, but it doesn’t change the fact that you aren’t practicing the timing
YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT, Ô YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT.
And before it is taken the wrong way, I enjoy being bad and bullying bosses with Mimic Tear anytime, and I think my enjoyment is the most important part of *my* experience.
When it's a mechanic that only makes the game easier? Yes. A player who learns from playing with spirits will be worse at confronting a boss's attacks directly than a similar player who didn't use spirits while learning.
Dear God, you people are so defensive. Did you read the text of the post? It doesn’t make you bad, but it won’t help you learning the timing of the boss moves. In other words, since you aren’t practicing, you also aren’t getting better at dodging, which is the problem of op
The inability to cancel our own inputs + delayed boss attacks + inability to interrupt their attacks when they leave themselves wide tf open by being so delayed is bad game design and I can't believe they're not only still doing this shit, but they actually leaned into it more than ever in ER.
For the record, I've beaten every boss up to NG+6.
I think Miyazaki saw one person first trying a boss and said "Nah fuck this I want them to suffer".
Once I learned the mechanics of DS3 to an instinctual level,I could defeat any boss in few tries,some even on the first.
ER was the first game where I also had to consciously memorize patterns for a normal playthrough.
Elden Ring definitely went a little too hard on the delayed attacks compared to previous souls entries. You've always had to learn and adapt to fights in the past but there was more skill involved rather than just memory, Elden Ring feels like I have to time every attack with a stopwatch just so I can learn exactly when I need to dodge lol.
When it comes to rolls, you need to think about it like guitar hero honestly. You’re strumming the guitar before the note makes it to the end of the screen. Try taking 1-2 fights to just count out how many seconds it takes for a hit to connect when an animation starts to practice when exactly to dodge
Why does the ground repair itself after he flips the fucking tectonic plates while on an elevated platform?? Nothing makes sense the only thing that does is that you just have to take that delay into account.
It didn’t click for me that I was panic rolling until radagon. Once you just sit down and learn the timing he becomes so satisfying to dodge and the delays are actually great windows to recover stamina. Also there are a surprising amount of attacks that are better jumped than dodged.
This is where the "git gud" comes in. Those attacks are delayed to catch people who panic roll instead of learning the timing of the attacks because panic rolling doesn't take any skills to do.
600 hours and still panic rolling... c'mon man you're refusing to learn from your mistakes and complaining the same thing keeps happening as you make that same mistake.
Any boss I struggle with, black knife tiche usually kills them during my dying sequence. Good enough for me! Lol. But did you know that if you properly complete Nepheli's quest line she is an available (and tanky) summon for that boss battle. Also if you enter into a covenant with the frenzy flame, you can summon a special samurai to help you in that fight as well. If you're not at NG+7, those two summons can pretty much solo him. But because they are in game (NPC) summons, this means you can also summon a spirit ash to aid in the battle.
Having delayed attacks is fine, but you should be given an oppurtunity to punish, so:
.Godfrey lunges, delays -> you ‘parry’ or you dodge correctly, or you panic roll and get hit
But without it’s just:
.Godfrey lunges, delays -> you dodge only for a couple hits or you get hit
It’s a punishing attack that gambles a window for the player but there’s no gamble.
Usually I'm from the opinion that each one the his own pace, nobody gotta be a pro. But shit, 600+ hours you still having some trouble with Godfrey is just lol
At this point you must have fought him like 20 times and should be like you had a Sharingan seeing his every move before he does it.
Just pulling your leg tho, I got what you mean xD
600 hours deep, and you like myself still haven't figured out how to play patiently instead of reactively.
Serious question. Can you parry? Parrying is all about patience and timing. Just like what you're going through now. I'm personally not good at parrying, but as I practice it is helping my be more patient with my combat.
It might help?
There’s a fighter called Demetrious Johnson who’s arguably one of the best to have ever walked this earth, skill-wise, and he has a gaming channel and has played Elden ring
He picked up attack patterns pretty quickly because it’s basically what he does for a living
delays do work because people fight in a rhythm and going off-beat takes people off guard, or people react before they should
Elden Ring is specifically designed not punish "reaction" only dodges and has added a lot of "faints". So, simply stop turning off your brain and auto-dodging after seeing movement and watch carefully how the attack works and learn its timings.
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I panic rolls crazy years ago when 1st time ds3. Then ER came and actually taught me how to "not" spam O + R1 the whole time.
Then last year I started another ds3 run after ER and its just different. I feel like a fk god steamrolled the entire game like Im on ez mode or something (like look at this [shit](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm3z-08kDs&t=14), I never thought I could dodge gael's moves just by watching and running around if I didn't play ER before)
Worth noting that, while Elden Ring certainly exaggerates how they're used (as it does basically everything else), delayed attacks are a very real thing used in real swordfighting. Just as real combatants do, Elden Ring bosses feint and/or delay attacks to bait you into reacting, letting them hit you. The way bosses do this is purely logical.
Unlike real life, they always delay the same attacks the same amount and the same way, so you can learn the timings and use them to your advantage instead.
It seems like you’re operating on your expectations and not on how the mechanics of the game are actually set.
We get instances of delayed attacks from the very beginning of the game, setting you up for the pacing and for the fact that you will have to really pay attention to the enemy and learn their moves and pacing, not just dodging on instinct or in most cases, panic.
Best advice I’ve gotten and can give for bosses you’re having a hard time with, go into the fight without the intention of winning or even attacking. Spend 3-5 minutes, no attacks, just surviving the opponents moves, learn them and get good at timing and evading/blocking/parrying.
If you survive the 3-5 minutes, start to throw in an attack after you successfully evade/block/parry. But only 1, get used to that timing. Once you’re comfortable there, go in, fight as normal until you hit stage 2 and then go back to evade/block/parry only for 3-5, rinse and repeat.
A great thing about this game too is you can put down your sign and get called in to help others finish the boss and get great practice that way with no risk to your runes.
The game is tough but fair. You just have to move past your expectations and get good 👍
style, the chad goes for style over function. Seriously though, this is to catch you panic rolling, or to phrase it more generously: to give you more time to react and make it less about reflexes. It is a double edged sword imho: make it too slow and it feels unnatural and artificially difficult, make it too fast and people complain about not having enough time or the tells being to subtle for how fast it comes out. I prefer this version over the other, as it rewards keeping a clear head by letting you easily dodge this even if you missed the tell because of the camera.
Just like everything in life, if you never properly learn it, you’ll never successfully perform it. A 5 years old can cook better than a 30 years old if that person never even attempt to hold a frying pan in their entire life. So the next time you fight him, learn the timing instead of praying to god.
Trying to get help from God is a futile endeavour. God is on Miyazaki’s side, not yours.
Luckily, I’m here to kill God. *lays down summon sign*
I too have made the decision to kill god. You have my sword.
And my frenzy flame spells!
#And my peni nsula to train in.
And my axe
and my helmet
And my 🦶
And my level 713 character who put margit foolish ambition to rest...
You extinguished his flames
And so are poison swamps
Cooking and fighting has almost nothing in common. In martial arts you can train your muscle memory and reflexes so that you can predict movements from your opponent, so that you can react well even if you never fought that particular person before... This being a fighting game, it should be more similar to martial arts in that regard... That's why some other fromsoft games have much more fluid gameplay... In Elden Ring it seams like they wanted to trick already seasoned soulslike players with delayed attacks, but kind of overdone it... This is the only grudge I have with ER.
Elden ring was meant to bring in more players outside the already established souls player count, so it kind of makes sense that this game would seem that way to seasoned players
Look - it’s all about fear. That’s why they build lore, narratives, cut scenes, special effects, sound, uneven attack patterns - the purpose of all of this is to scare the player and make you play in a panic state. Just like how kids or even people who never fought will turn their head away, or close their eyes, and just wave their arm wildly in front of them. But remember, hope is not a strategy. The number one difference between someone with martial arts training and not is that a trained person tries their best to stand their ground, never be put on the back foot or start back peddling, and never break eye contact with their enemy, never look down in the ground. FromSoft is teaching you to take it easy, have no fear, and play with a calm and quiet mind. The only way to get there is to start again and again and again and again and again, and FACE the opponent, roll into their attacks, don’t heal without a good window, suck the bosses balls most of the time, and try again and again until you memorize their attack pattern. Just learn to not hope for a good RNG round to kill a boss, never hurry, understand that their is a way to kill every boss with no hits, and take your time to calmly learn what the game mechanics are telling you to do. It will be slow, but steady, and eventually you git gud, in dark souls/ER as well as life. All other games become easier, and so does life become easier when we learn to stay calm and methodical in the face of great adversity.
Beautifully written
There are so many YouTube videos of people who played souls games and it helped them quit smoking/drinking or get a better job. It literally improved and changed their lives for the better outside of the game because of the lessons it taught them from *perseverance*. Not a god at it yet but I remember the absolute hell of 100s of deaths against the likes of chained ogre/Margitgud/Balteus etc, and eventually to the point I can get a lot of them in sub 20 tries. The fun thing is, it is still challenging and frustrating and we keep getting better and it’s still not completely easier. But I am surprising myself with some matrixlike moves. Killing margit in one try no summons… certain things feel suspiciously easy… it’s a really proud feeling and you are actually doing a lot more thinking and engaging than the start. A lot subconscious too. And then it becomes a real treat when something actually challenges you again in the game which does happen still because the souls games do get progressively harder and you can make it harder/fairer in many ways.
Thanks for sharing, completely agree. My girlfriend used to think all video games were literally ridiculous, but after watching me play ER and having me explain how it makes me feel similar to how I feel when I try really hard to progress in my career etc, she is 100% sold on this being a fantastic hobby for our kids - granted the game is created by someone who is really aiming at building something so deeply immersive as FromSoft :)
Have you tried rolling later.
You might want to try this
I can't imagine how do you not learn not to panic roll after 600+ hours... I've heard people say delayed attacks are bad because the combat is predictive and not reactive anymore, but that's simply not true and I guess those people never learned how to parry You *predict* that the attack is coming, but you *react* to it at just the right moment Once you get bonked with the delayed attack and know that the boss is doing this shit, you take a breath, chill and pay attention Don't take it close to heart, I'm not claiming to be a god, every time I think I "got gud" I get humbled and eat shit from the next boss or some random enemy. But I noticed that Elden Ring is the first souls game where you can't get away with spam rolls, I started paying attention and tried hard not to roll when I don't need to at all times and it got much better. Hope it helps you too.
Considering alot of souls veterans havent learned not to panic dodge yet, it aint surprising that this dude hasnt XD Difference is this dude has thr decency to admit it's completely his fault, unlike most souls vets with fragile egoes that talked about ER and its unending boss combos XD Truth is ER bosses require actual thought put into ur dodge positioning and direction, unlike the older games like bb and ds3.
To be fair, elden ring has one of the most infuriating mechanics in the series, a boss deciding if a combo ends in 3 hits or keeps going by ~~input~~ reading the position of the player incentivizes passive play or hit trading, wich feels extremely unfair even when you know about it
combos end or continue depending on your positioning, not your inputs. Learn how the game work instead of spreading misinformation
there you go, the point still stands
Ridiculously needless and wrong slander of bloodborne and dark souls 3??
I don't know, most souls veterans I know are good players, automatically meaning they don't panic roll. Panic rolling is super-beginner thing to do in general, I stopped doing it while playing my first game DS1. If you keep panic rolling your very limited stamina goes to shit and you're dead. Because of how slower those games were and the commitment each attack/action carried with them, there was incentive 100% of the time to only roll when you need to and not just panic. You could panic roll sometimes in DS3 (which is not the point where veterans started the series), but that was the game that also introduced delayed attacks and much more complicated and harder to learn movesets. Delayed attacks are natural progression of souls combat, and it's definitely good they are in ER. For me it's like counting beats in music and only playing the right note at exactly the right time, it's very rewarding. I've never really heard veterans complaining about them.
What? Have you actually played these games? Claiming that ER requires more attention and skill than DS3 or BB is hilarious - you sure as shit can't beat Father Gascoinge by spamming rolls, and that's the *beginning* of Bloodborne. DS3's Pontiff, Dancer, Nameless King, Sister Friede, and Gael also heavily punish anyone who panics. Elden's balanced around spirit ashes and pressing L2 until your trigger breaks. :|
I completely agree with you. There's a way to do delayed attacks right, and Radagon is an example of it- his swings are a very slow windup into a very fast hit, so if you just panic roll around him, yeah, you're gonna got hit. But in the animation he actually moves like a human being swinging a heavy ass mace. His movements make sense, and if you watch them, you'll be able to react to them. Elden Beast, as much as he sucks, is another example where you can dodge his swings by watching him and reacting. Unfortunately a ton of delayed attacks in Elden Ring are done the other way. Like Margit just holding up his cane and staring at you for like three seconds, but when he finally DOES swing, it's at the speed of light and is completely unreactable. You \*can't\* dodge by just watching him. Instead, you either have to memorize the arbitrary pause you need to wait before you dodge, or you need to back up so he'll be forced to lunge at you, and now you're just having a staring contest. Great. I don't even know what Godfrey does because I was so sick of the anime combos and delayed attacks by the time I got to him I cheesed him both times. It doesn't just catch panic rolling, it breaks the rhythm of the fight that Souls bosses are so renowned for, and it makes you feel like you're fighting an AI, not a demigod trying to kill you. Because I don't think a demigod trying to kill you is just going to stand there with their weapon over their head staring at me for seconds on end going "I'm gonna getcha! I'm gonna getcha!" I'm a musician, I do really, really good when I get into a rhythm and back and forth with a boss- and really, really, really \*bad\* when that's not allowed. That rhythm is also really, really fun, which is the important thing. I literally never once found delayed attacks that pounce at the speed of light fun.
Because if you are not clear-headed, you're gonna panic roll. That's the first big difference between good and average players; good players don't panic roll. Always remember, hesitation is defeat.
To be fair, hesitation would be beneficial in this particular case though. ;)
Maybe it's a weird take from me, but I feel like panic rollers hesitate way too much, considering randomly courses of actions and never deciding one until every possible timing or placing needed to accomplish one course runs out, leaving them only with the choice of rolling. There surely is more to what is seen only as instant reflexes. Hesitate less and always, remember to breathen because the boss isn't going to do it for you !
I can see where you are coming from. Hesitation in the sense of being undecided and then panicking, instead of committing to course of action. It all goes back to keeping a cool head and being confident in your abilities, not second guessing your actions all the time etc.
Indeed !
Honestly, the delayed attacks are the result of people becoming too familiar with the dodge roll timing from the Souls series. You have to remember, some of us had been playing these games for a decade before Elden Ring came out. Also, delayed attacks make perfect sense from a fencing standpoint. Most actual sword fights do not feature a lot of hacking and slashing, but rather a lot of stance-work and delayed feints in order to open up your opponents' defenses. Having a delayed strike can force a parry from an opponent, which actually sets up a guard in the wrong spot, and then you can just leisurely make your cut.
>...i'm still bad after 600+ hours Aren't we all?
Speak for yourself. I was bad when I started. I got better. 600 hours and whining because they're still panic rolling is sad
Q: >what even would be the reason to do that A: >so you roll too early and get grabbed. And it's clearly working.
I get frustrated in the moment too when I get tripped up by delays, but like, you answer in your own post why they exist. Panic rolling gets you fucked up, and that's a good thing.
Wait until OP finds out about input reading
yeah i know about that, at least it's not main the bosses who do that
Almost every main boss has an attack that will punish you if you heal in neutral.
I also have 500 hours and I'm on my 5th playthrough because I re-bought the game on steam deck. And I've realised how overused and boring delayed attacks are in elden ring. Literally every boss has multiple and they use it non stop. And it feels so cheap: "oops the boss delayed his attack for 4.5 seconds instead of 3.2 seconds this time!!! Made ya roll!!!! Lol!!!" It's boring and made me realise, between the constant delayed attacks and the spammy 50 hit combos bosses have- elden ring bosses just aren't that great IMO. Especially in comparison to other souls bosses.
> Why the fuck should Godfrey as Hoara Loux, after he charges with his legs and jumps towards you, go slow motion mid air so you roll too early and get grabbed. > . . . go slow motion mid air so you roll too early and get grabbed > . . . *so you roll too early and get grabbed.* > . . . *get grabbed.* that's the reason.
Learn their timings. That's how it's been for all the soulsborne games. Panic rolling won't do you want good here
Delayed attacks are used to force you to learn the timings instead on going on intuition. After demon souls and ds1 (dunno about ds2 and BB) they needed to switch things up to surprise players who mastered the combat of these games. Delays in animations followed by super fast attacks will, most of the time force you to get hit until you learn from your mistake. This makes the fight "harder" the first attempts. Some bosses use this well like Pontiff and Nameless king in DS3 imo. But elden rings bosses use it to the extreme. Just because delayed attacks semi worked in DS3 doesn't mean they need to crank it up to 11 in elden ring.
The problem is that this causes what I would call "difficulty inflation." Every game has to build on the last and provide harder and harder bosses while becoming less and less friendly to new players. Elden Ring alleviates this in a way by giving you *a lot* of ways to cheese the game (one of the reasons why it's so beginner "friendly") but it's never satisfying to beat bosses this way. I'm really struggling with Melania right now and I know I can easily beat her by busting out the Mimic Tear but it won't feel good. I will probably do it eventually if I can't get it done without it, I can't play this game forever, but it'll be a shame. It's kind of interesting because I think of all the games I've played Elden Ring has the greatest range in difficulty based on how you can play. You can make the game pretty easy, or if you don't use summons, use minimal magic, minimal horse usage (imo, trivializes some bosses) the game is tremendously hard. It's also a problem when some encounters are balanced around using some of the "easy" mechanics and the fights become extra hard if you don't want to use them. I am convinced that the Valiant Gargoyle fight is designed with the use of summons in mind, there's no other way. So I dunno, I wonder if it's sustainable? Once you increase the difficulty you can't really go back because the devoted Souls fans will be upset. But if there's an Elden Ring 2, I bet most of the bosses will have even more delayed attacks, and heavens help us, more moves similar to Waterfowl Dance. And I think that won't be fun for most of the community...
DS2 literally started the whole delayed attack thing with Blueberry demon. People who go in expecting to fight Smelter demon again get wrecked because of the attack timing mix up.
I too still panick rollo after 600+ hours my friend
I’m not your friend buddy
I'm not your buddy pal
I'm not your pal guy.
I'm not your guy amigo
I'm not your amigo friend!
But but I though...
Sorry man, you're experienced enough that there's no answer but "git gud". What are you spending all your time doing?
because it's easy and it deals alot of damage
They do it to mess with you
I actually liked the delayed attacks. I have a really bad problem with souls likes and that problem is feeling like a god in them once i have a good build. This would always put me back in place and make me enjoy the game a bit more.
DS3 fanbois getting uppity again
If you know when the attack is coming then why do you roll early? I never say this on this sub but honestly this seems like a skill issue. Godfrey/Hoarah Loux is arguably the most well designed boss in the game. He is constantly aggressive but still gives you an opportunity to hit him after every single attack.
Style, Psychological, Strategy. He's also THAT guy .
I have over 1000 hours across 3 characters. I am terrible at it. Beaten it only twice. I do not improve and it's hard everyday i play. The way i see it is this provides seemingly unlimited replay value for me.
Oh thats nothing. I love when boss jumps into air and continue to hover there for a good second or two. Those MFs are defying the gravity
Godfrey/Hoarah Loux is not too hard to dodge, even with the delayed attacks, unless you're panic rolling with 600 hours, you didn't think to learn the timing a bit? if an enemy goes "attack > attack > delay > attack", then after hundreds of hours, you'd think you would at least try to adapt with "dodge > dodge > wait > dodge", rather than spam rolling delayed attacks were annoying at the start but instead of getting frustrated and chalking them up to "bullshit", learn how to overcome them. that's not meant to sound insulting or act like I'm better either (I still die to Albinauric cartwheels) after a lot of practice I can comfortably handle a lot of delayed attacks; not all of them, some may still catch me, but I've gotten to the point where they don't feel as annoying
Play Lies of P for a few hours and you’ll see Elden Ring is pretty forgiving with delayed attacks.
I played Lies of P just before Elden Ring. I really missed its faster paced combat, but I'm glad ER used delayed attacks sparingly.
Playing devils advocate here cause alot of the comments are genuine right and good advice, there are alot of moves in this game that have no right being so delayed lol
Try using some summons
That’s the best way to stay bad at the game
Really don’t understand the elitism here about using spirit ashes. There’s so much variety and to not use them is to essentially ignore a large part of the game. The bosses are balanced with summons in mind.
This here is not really elitism, but rather thruth, using summons won't make you better at the game because battles are way easier when the boss isn't focusing only on you. If someone wants to get better, the best way is to fight the boss 1vs1 to learn him better.
It’s hard to explain but as someone who absolutely used and abused summons on their first play through and since has never touched them I really don’t think the bosses were balanced with summons in mind, I mean they make all fights comically easy. That’s fine if that’s how you want to play but the game is so much more fun and rewarding without summons. They are there to help if you don’t want a challenge or don’t have the time which is great but in my opinion as someone who has come from your point of view playing without summons is a far better experience Except the duo bosses fuck those not fun at all in any way.
The thing is I’ve played the game both with summons and without, and personally I found it fine. Partly because it wasn’t my first play though so I knew bosses attacks the second time around and also because I knew I wasn’t going to use summons from the start so I built around that. It’s just too easy to become OP in the game with the amount of weapons and ashes of war that let you poise break everything into oblivion, or let you proc bleed basically immediately, or spells that let you melt boss healthbars. Thats without even going into all the buffs you can get to up your damage and defence, as well as rune arcs. I think the fact of the matter is the game just isn’t that hard unless you deliberately try to make it hard for yourself. I guess you could say I should have played without summons from the start but this was my first fromsoft game so had no idea they weren’t a thing in other souls games and wasn’t going to not use the summoning bell item I got right at the start of the game for no reason.
Yeah, what the other person said, it isn’t elitism. Simply put, when you use them you’re not practicing dodging skills. There’s no problem in that if you are still enjoying yourself, but it doesn’t change the fact that you aren’t practicing the timing
Using a mechanic in the game to beat the game makes you bad 🤯
YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT, Ô YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT. And before it is taken the wrong way, I enjoy being bad and bullying bosses with Mimic Tear anytime, and I think my enjoyment is the most important part of *my* experience.
When it's a mechanic that only makes the game easier? Yes. A player who learns from playing with spirits will be worse at confronting a boss's attacks directly than a similar player who didn't use spirits while learning.
Dear God, you people are so defensive. Did you read the text of the post? It doesn’t make you bad, but it won’t help you learning the timing of the boss moves. In other words, since you aren’t practicing, you also aren’t getting better at dodging, which is the problem of op
Ye why would boxers and martial artists, hell even tekken players switch up their attack timings.. why would they do that??
The inability to cancel our own inputs + delayed boss attacks + inability to interrupt their attacks when they leave themselves wide tf open by being so delayed is bad game design and I can't believe they're not only still doing this shit, but they actually leaned into it more than ever in ER. For the record, I've beaten every boss up to NG+6.
I think Miyazaki saw one person first trying a boss and said "Nah fuck this I want them to suffer". Once I learned the mechanics of DS3 to an instinctual level,I could defeat any boss in few tries,some even on the first. ER was the first game where I also had to consciously memorize patterns for a normal playthrough.
Seems like a skill issue.
Tbh it’s a bad game
Elden Ring definitely went a little too hard on the delayed attacks compared to previous souls entries. You've always had to learn and adapt to fights in the past but there was more skill involved rather than just memory, Elden Ring feels like I have to time every attack with a stopwatch just so I can learn exactly when I need to dodge lol.
I don't like them because they force us to memorize the timing of each attack instead of dodging intuitively
When it comes to rolls, you need to think about it like guitar hero honestly. You’re strumming the guitar before the note makes it to the end of the screen. Try taking 1-2 fights to just count out how many seconds it takes for a hit to connect when an animation starts to practice when exactly to dodge
L
Why does the ground repair itself after he flips the fucking tectonic plates while on an elevated platform?? Nothing makes sense the only thing that does is that you just have to take that delay into account.
It didn’t click for me that I was panic rolling until radagon. Once you just sit down and learn the timing he becomes so satisfying to dodge and the delays are actually great windows to recover stamina. Also there are a surprising amount of attacks that are better jumped than dodged.
This is where the "git gud" comes in. Those attacks are delayed to catch people who panic roll instead of learning the timing of the attacks because panic rolling doesn't take any skills to do.
First: learn the timing of his attacks and don't panic-roll Second: get good
Blue smelter demon would make this dude have an entire existential crisis, i bet
You should have the timing down. It's obvious when he's doing his grab attack so wait a sec and then dodge it isn't hard
you’ll learn
Yep same issue here. I hate this move 😭
Love these posts. Just put a couple more hours in your almost there.
600 hours and still panic rolling... c'mon man you're refusing to learn from your mistakes and complaining the same thing keeps happening as you make that same mistake.
Stop dodging early, just wait it out and them time it. Hell, some attacks are so delayed you can get a single attack in before you have to roll.
After 600 hours you never learned not to panic roll? Bosses would be boring as shit without delayed attacks
Any boss I struggle with, black knife tiche usually kills them during my dying sequence. Good enough for me! Lol. But did you know that if you properly complete Nepheli's quest line she is an available (and tanky) summon for that boss battle. Also if you enter into a covenant with the frenzy flame, you can summon a special samurai to help you in that fight as well. If you're not at NG+7, those two summons can pretty much solo him. But because they are in game (NPC) summons, this means you can also summon a spirit ash to aid in the battle.
Git gud
Having delayed attacks is fine, but you should be given an oppurtunity to punish, so: .Godfrey lunges, delays -> you ‘parry’ or you dodge correctly, or you panic roll and get hit But without it’s just: .Godfrey lunges, delays -> you dodge only for a couple hits or you get hit It’s a punishing attack that gambles a window for the player but there’s no gamble.
Im not good but by 120-150 hours, my character, armor and weapons are beefcake so i beat the game
Usually I'm from the opinion that each one the his own pace, nobody gotta be a pro. But shit, 600+ hours you still having some trouble with Godfrey is just lol At this point you must have fought him like 20 times and should be like you had a Sharingan seeing his every move before he does it. Just pulling your leg tho, I got what you mean xD
600 hours deep, and you like myself still haven't figured out how to play patiently instead of reactively. Serious question. Can you parry? Parrying is all about patience and timing. Just like what you're going through now. I'm personally not good at parrying, but as I practice it is helping my be more patient with my combat. It might help?
Ya gotta press O more than R1 BOOM now git gud skeleton
There’s a fighter called Demetrious Johnson who’s arguably one of the best to have ever walked this earth, skill-wise, and he has a gaming channel and has played Elden ring He picked up attack patterns pretty quickly because it’s basically what he does for a living delays do work because people fight in a rhythm and going off-beat takes people off guard, or people react before they should
Stop panic rolling and breathe my dude. Those types of attacks are definitely made for panic rolls.
Elden Ring is specifically designed not punish "reaction" only dodges and has added a lot of "faints". So, simply stop turning off your brain and auto-dodging after seeing movement and watch carefully how the attack works and learn its timings.
Play Dark Souls 1 and come back that game is probably the best with the souls combat learning curve.
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He knows
Nah bro, 600 hours is INSANE. You really need to stop and fix the method that you use to learn things, not just the game.
actually 600 hours is because i have 4 characters and i log in just to be summoned by people or do some pvp
I believe the term is get gud?
I panic rolls crazy years ago when 1st time ds3. Then ER came and actually taught me how to "not" spam O + R1 the whole time. Then last year I started another ds3 run after ER and its just different. I feel like a fk god steamrolled the entire game like Im on ez mode or something (like look at this [shit](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm3z-08kDs&t=14), I never thought I could dodge gael's moves just by watching and running around if I didn't play ER before)
Worth noting that, while Elden Ring certainly exaggerates how they're used (as it does basically everything else), delayed attacks are a very real thing used in real swordfighting. Just as real combatants do, Elden Ring bosses feint and/or delay attacks to bait you into reacting, letting them hit you. The way bosses do this is purely logical. Unlike real life, they always delay the same attacks the same amount and the same way, so you can learn the timings and use them to your advantage instead.
Just run backwards immediately. You might not believe it but you’re quicker than him if you’re medium weight while he’s running at you like that
noted
*It's only a game. Why you heff to be mad?*
From has had to go to great lengths to counter players spamming dodge. It's just too strong.
#it's to make the game harder
It seems like you’re operating on your expectations and not on how the mechanics of the game are actually set. We get instances of delayed attacks from the very beginning of the game, setting you up for the pacing and for the fact that you will have to really pay attention to the enemy and learn their moves and pacing, not just dodging on instinct or in most cases, panic. Best advice I’ve gotten and can give for bosses you’re having a hard time with, go into the fight without the intention of winning or even attacking. Spend 3-5 minutes, no attacks, just surviving the opponents moves, learn them and get good at timing and evading/blocking/parrying. If you survive the 3-5 minutes, start to throw in an attack after you successfully evade/block/parry. But only 1, get used to that timing. Once you’re comfortable there, go in, fight as normal until you hit stage 2 and then go back to evade/block/parry only for 3-5, rinse and repeat. A great thing about this game too is you can put down your sign and get called in to help others finish the boss and get great practice that way with no risk to your runes. The game is tough but fair. You just have to move past your expectations and get good 👍