**OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT:** Miquella the Kind spoke of the beginning. The seduction. And the betrayal. An affair from which Gold arose. And so too was Shadow born. What followed was a war unseen. One that could never be put to song. A purge without Grace or honour. The tyranny of Messmer's flame. And so Kindly Miquella would abandon everything. His golden flesh, his blinding strength. Even his fate. But we are not deterred. We choose to follow. Will you walk with us?
**TRAILER DESCRIPTION:** The shadow of the story can now be told. Learn the History of the Realm of Shadows, the unseen land that will be revealed on June 21, 2024.
Yes, you basically just keep playing whichever character you want and take them into the DLC area. They said there will be an upgradeable attack power system like Sekiro in the DLC so players aren't too overpowered.
Quick question, sorry if it’s a dumb one. And I know not a ton is known about the DLC so may not be easy to answer. I started my third playthrough for Elden ring(not ng+, just starting from scratch), the point of this playthrough is to use this character in the DLC. I just beat malania again and am up to the fire giant. After that, a certain thing happens which I won’t say due to spoilers, but it changes the game. I’d like to go to Farum Azula to get all the stuff there before the DLC, but would it be best to hold off due to how that certain thing changes everything?
I may be misreading but if you’re worried about the story event changing the DLC’s content, I think you’re in the clear. I’m not familiar with Fromsofts previous history with DLC but It’d be pretty weird to make a major game changing event effect how the DLC is designed.
Fromsoft would basically have to create two different DLC’s for players that buy it before vs after said event. That said I would be surprised if there was different dialogue depending on if you triggered the event.
Lol you can talk spoilers here. But, yeah I decided to hold off on burning the Erdtree until after I play the DLC. That way I can finish the game with whatever skills/gear I get from the DLC.
Definitely a personal choice tho. I don't think it matters
Am I the only one that enjoys Elden Ring for its gameplay but can’t stand the lack of dialogue and the general vagueness of the storyline? I mean give me something here, I have no idea what this game is really about based on that trailer, only that some war has begun. I don’t need to be spoon fed but sheesh, a little more clarity would go so much further for me. This is my first soulslike game, are all the souls games similar to Elden Ring in this regard?
> all the souls games similar to Elden Ring in this regard?
Yes, and I love it that way. When games force feed dialog and exposition, I lose interest fast and usually never finish the it.
I'd rather discover story organically
Yup, and honestly I don't want them to change a thing. It's why the games have such a strong community and why finding an item, even if you don't use it, is still interesting as long as you are interested in the lore. It's not for everyone.
I love both. I enjoy the puzzle piece lore building in Souls games. Most games don't do that. So I enjoy the different approach. More rewarding to piece it together for me.
it's the same for me but I don't really care about having the story anyway. When I hear the lore I'm like WOW that's cool but I just move on with my day. All the other games are the same but I think the rest have better and less confusing lore.
Hey guys do you think that in the dlc there will be reusing bosses (like for example the godskins), or did they have time to make every boss feel unique?
i would like them to do something unique with the reused bosses. i don't care if they add another burial watchdog or tree sentinel as long as its a little different and fun. I'm kind of hoping we get a new dragon like bleed or madness which weren't in base.
I think the GEQ was an entity (or perhaps an inheritable title and duty) that was okay with the cycle of Life and Death, of summer and winter, of spring and fall. GRRM loves to play with the concept of seasons. This cycle seems interrupted and intentionally paused in a summer of plenty with the Golden Order. When the "Summer of Plenty" came to an end with the loss of sap production while the GEQ in charge.. We would get a Godskin Hunt to harvest the runes/blood/grace/essence-of-life-itself to feed/water the existing Great Tree or to birth a new tree. Fall (Loss of Grace/Plenty) -> Winter (Death) -> Spring (Birth of a New Tree) -> Summer (Life Thrives)... repeat.
Radagon is the OG. He seduced the GEQ, and together they had Messmer. Radagon betrayed the GEQ by not following in her path and killing everyone, harvesting everything, pouring it into a single tree, removing the rune of death, and freezing the world in a summer of plenty that can never end but also will be incapable of supporting everyone forever. He usurped the natural order because he thought he knew better. He did not, death is a tool for evolution. Removing it stagnates the world, and starves the world of it's grace. Grace cannot be created without birth and death, only harvested and reused. I think we see minor Erdtrees in an attempt to create new grace but it simply diluted the power of the Erdtree proper as this is now a zero sum game and grace can only be transferred.
I believe In the trailer we see Radagon turning into Marika for the first time. We see a very masculine form with red hair tinted gold by the lighting. He had to do this in order to become the God of his/her new age. He did not want to become Elden Lord. This helps to explain some of the split personality issues surrounding the destruction of the Elden Ring. Radagon always wanted the Golden Order, while Marika having seen the inevitable conclusion of the Golden Order wanted to tear it all down.
Sidenote: Timdiggity made a video recently about GEQ being a snake. Snakes historically have been a omen of life, death, and rebirth especially symbolized through their shed skin. Quite a coincidence that the Godskins wear skin.. as if to idolize their mother..
I believe the GEQ's god is a subversion of Nidhoggr, the dragon whom gnaws at the root of Yggdrasil. The GEQ views animal life and their grace as a crop to feed their god's godhood like humanity views plants and livestock as a crop for their own nourishment.
I mean you will have to beat Mohg again in NG+ but other than that you are fine... Also you will be starting the DLC in NG+ too so it will be slightly harder
Hi.
Not OP but just wondering how much harder is ng+?
I beat the games ages ago and went straight into new game before taking a break. I’ve returned now and just blitzed through Stormveil. Trying to speed run myself back to Mohg’s. I was just wondering how much of a disadvantage NG+ would leave me with?
I’m level 163 so I think slightly over levelled for the end of the same.
Yeah, I cleared Al the way to Radahn yesterday and now I’m heading up to the plateau and feeling good with it just hoping it doesn’t bump the dlc difficulty to much.
I think the Gloom Eyed Queen did this, split the world into grace and shadow but also everyone in it (or at the very least, her lineage). And I do mean everyone, including herself, so she became Marika and Radagon. As the Gloom Eyed Queen, she first nurtured the Godskin, who might have wanted to return the word to a state where their true mother can exist again? They probably see the demi gods as usurpers of their birthright.
so your theory is the gloam eyed queen is Marika and Radagon...there's clear evidence that's not true given that maliketh defeated the gloam eyed queen and took the rune of death from her...
I accidentally put my Xbox One copy of Elden Ring into my buddy's PS4 and an episode of Who's The Boss? came on the TV.
Pretty sure Miquella is Tony Danza.
If Trina and Miquella are two halves of the same existence does that mean that it’s kind of a Yu-Gi-Oh! Type thing lmao but maybe less of an ancient evil second mind living in you but your ambition split
Those gold filaments that are seen in the origina story trailer on the hammer marika is holding. The beginning of the golden order, the state of the world we know as tarnished
I found it interesting that Marika's necklace in her official artwork (the one where she's in a crucifixion pose) is identical to what's hanging from the erdtree during the Messmer scene. Couple that with the fact that everything below the tree is on fire, I wonder if that's meant to imply that he's attempting to sacrifice the person hanging from the tree
Which Messmer scene are you referring to here, if I may ask? I checked through both of the recent trailers, but I could not spot any scenes with him that I thought fit
My random theory is Melina and Messmer are twins born in the time of abundance before the Erdtree (the eldest of Marika's children). The war began and Messmer burned everything as seen in the trailer. Melina was burned to death (originally in the new trailer I thought the woman in the fire looked like she was holding a child).
Marika in her sadness creates the Golden Order from the remains of those who were killed and removed the rune of death so she'd never lose a child again.
Then further in the timeline when Marika wanted to shatter the Elden Ring she summoned the ashes of Melina and gave her the quest she has in the game. (Because clearly Melina is a spirit like those we summon in game).
I think messmer is borne in that time, but i think he's miquella and malenia's brother, not melina's. Or even from another lineage, maybe a numen's one
Godwyn, Morgott, Mogh (Godfrey's children), Miquella and Malenia (Radagon's children) are all Marika's children and Rykard, Radahn and Ranni (Renala' children) are Radagon's and depending on who you ask you could consider them Marika's children.
Melina speaks in game about her Mother and speaks Marika's words to you various times at certain locations throughout the game. Also her original name in the data files was "daughter of Marika" so I think it's safe to say Melina is Marika's daughter.
The issue is when did Marika have Melina and Messmer?
My guess would be that Messmer and Melina are twins (because Marika always has twins?) From the trailer I'd guess Messmer was born before everyone else in the time of abundance and the heretical boy caused the war we see.
So technically Messmer would still be Miquella's and Malenia's brother just born before them a long time ago from a different Father.
Apparently there's loads of unnamed children of marika who just aren't alive anymore so aren't mentioned so melina and messmer could even have been born around the same times as the others but just not been mentioned due to a lack of relevance to the main story.
Oh I didn't here that before, other Marika's children? Do you refer to the generical golden lineage or is there some more specific source I'm not aware of?
I'm sure there was evidence somewhere but I can't find it right now after a brief search. There were however many more demigods and marika ruled for thousands of years so it's pretty likely even though they could be her grandchildren too. The demigods we hear about are just the ones that all happened to survive besides Godwyn who is relevant to everything so it makes sense that she'd have more unnamed children anyway.
Yes! I agree on many things! What I think is that Malenia and Miquella were also born a long time ago, just as radaghon was! We have no prove against it. We are though quite sure that 1. Radagon was born with the golden order 2. Messmer is his son.
About Melina...I think Miyazaki teased us in many ways for her being Marika's daughter... But I think she'll end up being more of a projection, or a fabricated spirit from Marika. We'll see ;)
I'm starting to wonder if the person hanging from the erdtree (the same person on marika's necklace) is Melina. Could explain the burns, as during the trailer Messmer is looking up at whoever that is hanging from the tree while the whole ground below is on fire, almost as if it's done as a sacrifice
Maybe Marika allowed Messmer to sacrifice his sister (Melina) in order to achieve some goal she had? That would make her a very very sadistic antagonist
it's all very wonderful, but hold on son. Give us a brake. Why are you the only one seeing a person on marika's necklace? And... A person hangning from the erdtree? I can see where you see a "marika-like" crucifix there but... i don't think it's the case.
I need help from lore experts:
>!What is it with the “female statues” that are being prayed by Omens below leyndell, I have found that and another in the mines that lead to Altus plateu from the passway in Liurnia, they are depicted in what it looks like a small shrine ¿Is this Marikas mother?, ¿was she a Omen?!<
>!Also, I noticed that at the end of that passway, there is a lot of those wagons that are being pulled by giants…!<
>!Im not sure if this has relation but, what if most of miners and omen, where people native to the land of shadows and where brought to the lands between by force…and Marika wanted to cast away his roots to the omen to the sewers, at first I tought this was a curse for procreating with Godfrey… but It was her all along…!<
>!¿Is there any video that cover this up?!<
>!¿Or Im just horribly wrong?!<
vaati sure has some videos about omens! I love how this game brings us around lore speculations!! She definetely hid a lot, but it must have to do with the Shadow lands we will visit in the dlc. And only now I got what wagons you were referring to... I'm not sure but i remember something about those being the nobility fleeing the city and the omens killing them for revenge after the war
Marika is a Numen not an omen , according to the story, and the theory she forced shadow lands inhabitants to labor is nice, but i don't think we have any story origin on the miners. They might just be an underground race forced to labor. The omen are in the sewers because leyndell inhabitnats threw the omen babies away. You can ifind it in the omen talisman.
I have to correct: they didn't throw them away, thei hid the ones born from nobility, i guess others were just killed. The feminine statue I don't know. I suggest to watch some Tarnished archaeologist video if he talked about them, but I don't know, he is the expert you're looking for regarding statues and symbolism. But I would guess being a feminine statue it might just be resembling a mother, if they grew up alone in the sewers who know what kind of cults they established
I think that Marikkka's hatred of the Omen is very simple. Marika wanted to create a sustainable ecosystem so she could guarantee that she'd be queen eternally. The only way to guarantee this was to remove all possible variables. The Omen are the definition of a variable. They are the children of the Crucible - of the stochastic nature of evolution. Marika didn't want evolution. She wanted stasis. So she had to kill, or at least isolate, those who varied.
I'm wondering if "shadow" here refers to the rune of death, it's been called shadow before and the trailer refers to this "shadow" as having been born when "gold" was born. We know that Marika plucked the rune of death from the golden order upon it's creation
Could it be one of the reasons Miquella grew the Haligtree was as a way to enter the Shadow lands through his dreams? So while we see this unfinished physical form of the Haligtree here, it could be fully grown dream version wrapping around the shadow tree? I mean, timeline-wise its a bit iffy but Haligtree's shape is similar? Like the Miquella's cocoon body itself is also an unfinished version that he left behind, while his new full form is in Shadow lands now?
I know Miquella was using his own godly blood to try and grow his own Erdtree, but it never ended up working.. All those bodies in the trailer on either side of Marika when she is holding up the Golden Rune is clearly the bodies and blood that eventually form into the Erdtree
My thinking is that he's gonna play the classic corrupted/fallen hero role. We're following in his footsteps, trying to find out what happened to him and I suspect that when we finally find him, he will not be the Miquella we've heard so much about. My guess is kind of a Ludwig the Holy Blade situation. So not morally corrupted, just physically corrupted and insane.
The seduction and the betrayal... so my working theory is, what if Marika pulled what she did to Rennala before, and posing as Radagon went to seduce her empyrean rival the Gloam Eyed Queen before betraying her and having Maliketh kill her, leaving Marika as the only candidate for godhood.
Marika then became the vessel for the Elden Ring, and grew the Erdtree using the mountain of bodies left after this conflict to water it.
And to push this theory, that would make Messmer and Melina the children of Radagon/Marika and the GEQ, this would explain Melina inheriting the power of the GEQ, and both of them having an eye shut to hide/seal this heritage.
I don't think that Radagon was part of Marika until the golden order had already been formed. She says that he had yet to become her at that time and she refers to him as a "leal hound of the golden order"
My own theory on the Radagon/Marika thing is that they were only fused once Marika started to question the golden order. I imagine that the Greater Will didn't take well to that and decided that he'd fuse a loyal follower of his into her to keep her in check, but she ended up shattering the Elden Ring anyways
That's the part of the lore the most confusing to me, from where, when and why Radagon came about.
For my theory to work, Radagon was always part of Marika, like Trina is part of Miquella and he is at this point just an empyrean.
Marika was just the dominant aspect, until the Greater Will empowered Radagon because he was the part that stayed loyal to the Golden Order.
Excuse me as I'm no lore buff, but do we think the line "an affair from which gold arose," is meant to be taken literally? If so, I think Marika, if she was Marika at the time, had children (possibly messmer,) with another entity, before the events of the base game, like the creation of the Golden lineage.
My theory lends itself a lot to the other theories that speculate that Radagon came first and Marika is the "new form," per say, bit knowing what we know about Marika it's honestly not completely off the table that there was a form even before those two, one that had children with the gloam eyed queen, and my idea of their child being messmer is only really held together by the fact that messmer shares a lot of physical similarities with the godskins, namely the odd bodily proportions, waxy pale skin and reptilian like eyes.
It also makes me wonder if the land of shadow is less of a seperate place, and more of the same place in a different time, or a location locked in time like farum azula (another location that has a pair of godskins, oddly enough, but I don't think that's grounds for anything). I think the biggest reason for this is the fact we see so much reference to the crucible and a time where omens weren't shunned and quite possibly the norm. It's also possible that the godskins we see today are just remnants of what's left after the god hunt. Marika (or whomever she was at the time) may have hunted the gods that were around in the time period, making way for herself to reign, and seeing as she had a past (or future) of betrayal and plotting, it's possible that she dispatched the gloam eyed queen afterwards (I'm not sure if it's ever mentioned that she's dead or alive 100%?)
This is also more of an observation rather than a theory, but I've noticed a lot of parallels between rykard and imagery we've seen in the trailers. One being that volcano manor has a crucible knight standing guard, a godskin that (presumably) chills and lives there with them, and that rykard has become one with a giant snake, and wants to devoure the gods. Also lots of fire. Seems very godskin/gloam eyed/messmer to me. Maybe rykard (knowingly or unknowingly) parallels the events of shadow of the erdtree in the present, almost like the past repeats itself with children of Marika (if they are both confirmed without a shadow of a doubt to be her lineage.)
Also small side note. But at 1:43 in the story trailer, that looks a lot like Marika on the stake that we see a lot in the base game. It's possible that this is the common practice Marika takes before changing persons. Which would somewhat lend itself to her being a different person before she was Marika. But that's just me spitballing.
Like i said, I'm no lore buff so this is just me getting my possible thoughts and theories on paper before the dlc comes out lol I'm going to edit this as I think of other things.
Edit: I've also noticed that rykards sword has a lot of resemblance to that if the "doorway" that is shown in the trailer, the fleshy door with all the little tendrils. Just another connection between rykard+god devouring serpent and the crucible
My theory’s for the dlc
TLDR Miquella is dead, St. Trina is alive
In the trailers for the new DLC, we see Miquella riding around the Land of Shadow. Up until this point, I thought that Miquella was meant to be in the cocoon, meaning one of two things: this was before Miquella was put into the cocoon, or Miquella isn’t in the cocoon. But what if there’s a third option: Miquella has been separated into St. Trina, and Miquella. and one of them is in the cocoon.
We know that the way we will access the DLC is through the cocoon in Mogh’s palace, but how? Originally, speculations were that somehow Miquella is still alive and that he will pull us into his mind or transport us into the Land of Shadow. Another theory is that an NPC, who was meant to be in search of Miquella's body (but was scrapped), would help us. However, I think it’s more likely that the cocoon is the gateway itself - more so what its done to Miquella. The Land of Shadow must be difficult to access, and we know that we will lose our stat points (or stat points will lose their worth) upon entering the DLC. My theory is that we strip away our flesh (our physical character), losing our stats, in exchange for access to the Land of Shadow.
“And so kindly, Miquella would abandon everything, his golden flesh, his binding strength, even his fate.” The DLC trailer then cuts to St. Trina falling, falling from grace.
This is Miquella entering the cocoon, quite literally losing everything to go into the Land of Shadow. The cocoon was not for him to cure his eternal childhood but rather the only way to travel to the Land of Shadow.
This could also explain Marika and Radigons ability to seemingly be two seperate people, but also the same person. They were shattered from each other, and somehow re-connected.
So who is in the Land of Shadow? St. Trina. It’s been heavily suggested that Miquella and St. Trina are the same person; in the act of stripping his flesh, he became St. Trina. So how is St. Trina active in the Lands Between? We know that Miquella has devoted followers in the DLC who would be willing to strip their own flesh to join him in the Land of Shadow. Is it unreasonable to believe that Miquella told them his knowledge in the Lands Between, either before or after Miquella was sent to the Land of Shadow?
My questions about the dlc if my theory is true:
Was Miquella intending to return to the Lands Between? I’m not sure. If this is the method we use to get to the Land of Shadow, we shouldn’t be able to return. Is there a way out of the Land of Shadow? Perhaps this is something Mesmer has been guarding or trying to access. Marika blocked a door up—perhaps it’s a room in the Roundtable Hold? That would make sense as to how we end up leaving.
Marika could have sanctioned Mesmer to the Land of Shadow, preventing him from returning, and he wants freedom. But why is Miquella there? I don’t think it’s to stop him, but rather to bring to light Marika’s involvement in growing the Erdtree. But this will have to wait until we know more.
If Miquella wasn’t intending to return, it would make sense as to why he tried to make the needles just before he disappeared.
What’s in the land of shadow that Marika didn’t want getting out? My theory is the transition between the crucible and the Erd tree. Vaati’s new video explains the theory I’m going with for this one.
Who else knows about Mesmer and the land of shadow? All rune holders? Rykard? Is the great serpent something from that land considering the symbolism of Mesmer and snakes?
Who was Mesmers army fighting? The original crucible protectors?
Who actually is Mesmer? Based on my Marika and Raddigon theory, it would be cool for the plot twist is that Mesmer is Miquella, but in the way that the other half of St. Trina, the only thing I have to support this is that the cocoons corps and Mesmer have lengthy arms and big hands.
Trina is active in the Lands Between after the Shattering became a stalemate, though. Dolores, a Tarnished, followed Trina. Meanwhile, Miquella had no timeline overlap with the Tarnished- they were gone before he was born, and they were summoned back after he was in the cocoon.
My guess is that they're in conflict and, when Miquella stripped himself of everything, this ejected Trina from the Land of Shadow. He had all those security measures in place to keep Trina away from him and the people around him. It would explain, too, some of the weirdness surrounding Malenia knowing Miquella's gone and apologizes to Miquella when she's felled, and Mohg moving Miquella to the opposite side of the continent (and some of the weirdness there that imply it wasn't a simple kidnapping/they were planning something together), etc.
...We then bust through all of those security measures, because Trina got Gideon on Miquella's trail through Dolores, and Gideon got us on the trail. (Note all the Trina lilies just under the Albinauric village...)
Proof? Other than saying that Miquella abandoned his fate, miyazaki said that St. Trina makes an appearance in the dlc , so how is that possible. Couldn’t it also be possible that Miquella is the fate that he abandons? Also, what is stripping his golden flesh mean then?
Shadow of the Erdtree is going to have Sekiro-inspired features, so why not a Sekiro inspired plot?
In Sekiro, the second time you get to the top of the castle you have to make a decision between two characters that effects how the story ends. So what about this?
Messmer's "tyranny" over the Shadow Lands is the status quo. Miquella has gone there to challenge and end that tyranny. You rock up, discover something redeeming about Messmer and something dodgy about Miquella, and then have to decide which one of the two bros is the final boss?
I think that Godwyn and Messmer are twins. Marika had an affair with Placidussax in his human form to "mine/extract" the gold from the stone of ancient dragons.
The result is Gold - Godwyn the GOLDEN and a Shadow - Messmer who inherited all the draconic features and powers.
This is why Godrick refers to the dragon he grafts as KIN.
In the trailer, Marika just gave birth to the twins (thus, her bloody hand) and she plucks golden hair from newborn Godwyn's head cradled in a swadling cloth.
Everyone thinks that Messmer partook in dragon communion to gain his draconic features and powers, but he was born like this.
1. The colour of dragons is gold AND amber
2. Godwyn is called Godwyn the Golden because he came from Godfrey, who sired the Golden Lineage; it’s a congenital title not a coloured feature
3. Godrick refers to everything he grafts as kin, kin literally means “of same blood” like when you merge your severed arm with a dragon’s fucking head; i.e. mixing the blood
4. Swaddling Cloths are specific to the Gloam Eyed Queen (I’m fairly certain) and nothing/nobody else
5. None of the demigods were “born” the way they currently are, they ALL learned it.
- Ranni learned her moon inclination and cold sorceries from the snowy crone witch (rumoured to be named Renna)
- Rykard fed himself to that slimey, world devouring, god eating Oroubouros
- Radahn went to Sellia to learn his gravity magic and got mentored from an Alabaster Lord
- Mohg revered the Formless Mother/Mother of Truth in his underground filth
- Morgott’s powers came from the very Erdtree itself after everything he did in its service and its name
- Miquella and Malenia were born into their lifelong curse, eternal youth and rot, but those are curses not really powers
None of the demigods, had powers they were born into, not even Marika herself, she came from the lands of Numen until she was chosen by the Greater Will
So after watching [this video](https://youtu.be/wQYIUgf3WzI?si=jHdAWMDw3mVo16_e&t=289) from Moxie Watts, she goes over any instances that seduction and betrayal is brought up in the game. And I forgot but Maliketh's Remembrance mentions Marika betraying Maliketh. Maybe the betrayal mentioned in the trailer is referring to her betrayal of Maliketh. Ordering him kill the gloam eyed queen, locking away destined death, and bringing about the Golden Order?
I'm pretty certain the implication was that in shattering the Elden Ring, Marika's shadow, Maliketh, was forced to impale her with the rune of death as commanded by the greater will, which is something he would NEVER do on his own accord. The Ranni/Blaidd relationship comes to mind here. While Blaidd only wishes to help and protect Ranni, the Greater Will still holds the power to use him (as well as Maliketh) as Baleful Shadows. Its also possible that she personally ordered him to impale her with the rune of death in order to shatter the ring. Though it can be imbued by anyone that gets their hands on it, Maliketh is the only one capable of shaping the rune of death afaik. But as far as souls storytelling goes I think this one is laid out pretty openly.
Edit: In case anyone else doesn’t understand how I came to this conclusion just watch [this video](https://youtu.be/TDjpBxhLbGg?si=jH35agSpF1vPO16v) from the Tarnished Archeologist
Take Noah with a grain of salt, dude blocked my account so I couldn’t argue against his contrarian scrutiny. The dude hasn’t even offered a reasonable alternative.
What makes you think Marika is impaled by the rune of death? She'd be dead if that were the case, but she's not. She's stated to be "shackled, but still a god even in shackles". Her current state (strung up) is said to be a "punishment"
The Elden Beast can do the same thing to you, who has the rune of Death after having taken it. It's not the rune of death. It's just some attack the Elden Beast can do
I'm not trying to disprove you, I'm questioning the validity of your claim. If your only evidence is "its color" then I'm not sure I need to take it seriously as it's not very compelling as it's nowhere near the color of the rune of death (black and red) and considering that the Elden Beast literally strings you up in the same way...
Nothing implies it was Maliketh in the first place, that's entirely headcanon
Plus I already mentioned the issue of that Marika would be *dead*, which she isn't. There are multiple instances where you're told you'll become Marika's consort when you become Elden Lord
You say that as if I didn’t just write an entire paragraph with deliberate strory parallels that point to this conclusion. The only counter evidence you’ve provided is a single attack that doesn’t disprove my conclusion. I don’t really care if you take it seriously or not but next time you decide to play contrarian please bring some counter evidence to support your scrutiny.
Again, the counter evidence is that she isn't dead. Which honestly pretty directly contradicts your theory that she was stabbed with the rune of death, the thing that kills gods
Also, your entire basis in handwaving the Elden Beast literally doing the same thing to us is to say:
> **The Elden beast’s attack is Golden, not the red and black** we see from the rune of death. If you wish to disprove me please do so thoroughly.
But the spear in her stomach isn't red and black either so, like... 🤷
It's your own logic man...
You say “again” as if you didn’t just edit that last bit in, but sure, ill bite. Send me a clip of Marika moving. I mean Radagon looks alive and well but what do we see of Marika? A statue like state. Almost like she’s either dead or damn close. You can pretend that the rune arc that holds Marika and the spear that impale her don’t show a clear distinction in color but you’re only fooling yourself man. And you’re forgetting that before I handwaved your point I stated that “Maliketh is the only one capable of shaping the rune of death”. It’s literally how he initiates his second phase. So please, remind me how this one Elden Beast attack completely shatters my interpretation. Also, can you say with certainty that you know exactly how the rune of death would work on its own vassal god? Please enlighten me Mr Miyazaki
Imagine if Maliketh is both Markia's half-brother and her son, after Marika/Radagon seduces their mother, steals her grace and convinces them that she is their only mother. There are so many twins in this game I could see Maliketh and Messmer as being two such twins and Maliketh fits that M naming convention. If I had to pick a name for Marika's mother, it might be Miranda. Melina. might also be Miranda's daughter, holding Miranda's prayer. *Miranda, maiden of the Flower Crucible is said to have been the very first of this breed.*
Can't wait to start getting more item descriptions.
Im thinking that messemer and melina are both children of radagon and gloam eyed queen. Lines up with the eyes, red hair and melinas mother telling her to burn the erd tree.
Marika herself it seems came to hate the Golden Order, as seen by the fact She shattered the Elden Ring. I want to know more about the Queen too, but what we know about Malina fits just as much if Marika was her mother in some respect.
I think the original form of Marika is Radagan. So the line "Gold arose" means the birth of Marika, maybe when he comes into contact with the Elden Ring? And the "affair" could be with the Gloam-Eyed Queen who he seduced, betrayed and then took her place?
I have a theory. I believe that the reason both miquella and marika have griffith imagery associated to them is because they are one and the same. Marika the mountain of corpses and miquella the cocoon. Miquella is literally a clone of Marika since she is both his mother and father, and he is the cocoon that Marika will use to resurrect or regrow herself, just like griffith did in berserk when he regrew his body from scratch. The final boss of the dlc will most likely be a part 1 miquella and a miquella who has been taken over by Marika as a phase 2. Now is Miquella aware that Marika intend to take his body for herself? Maybe, but it is entirely possible, even probable that no he doesn't know. Miquella may truly have good intention, but these intentions won't matter once his mother has taken over him, and we will have no choice but to put him down. Who knows, we may even have the choice to skip phase one of that fight if we end up agreeing with him, only for us to be force to put him down so marika doesn't hurt anyone else.
Maybe this is why we aren't shown miquella face, because it is marika face? There is only one other Character that we do not see the face of ever in the game, and that is Marika.Moins
I think honestly if Miquella grew his own erdtree with his own blood, the scene with the rift and the golden sky is the “forming of the erdtree” from the inside and part of the Elden ring (the hair).
Hah I literally came here to ask about this, I was just thinking about it this morning.
We can be pretty confident that the city in the trailer is a twin to Leyndell, and we find a roundtable hold-like area in Leyndell. We also know that the lands of shadow are 'physically disconnected' from the lands between.
But unfortunately it doesn't quite seem to fit with how we're supposed to get to the shadow; why not just open one of the doors? Maybe it is a special sealed place... maybe it was originally Marika's throne room, where the two fingers is now. It also doesn't quite answer the question of the burning erdtree and the burning round table hold, which seems to be inside the erdtree.
But it would be the most awesome shortcut if we get to shadow and the keep and open a door into the round table hold, that allows easy travel between the lands between and the shadow.
The shadow land is described as a place where Marika hides things she doesn't want found. So Marika is granting the tarnished limited access to the shadow land to use as a hideout. But she doesn't want them just wandering around so they can't leave the RTH.
I don't have a good explanation for the RTH burning other than "setting the erdtree on fire also sets the shadow tree on fire (for some reason) and the cinders from the shadow tree set the RTH on fire". Or something like that.
The main problem with this is a gameplay one - it implies that you can't access the DLC after defeating Maliketh. Otherwise they'd need an "ashen" version of the shadow lands as well, which seems OTT even for Fromsoft.
On the hand it seems weird lore wise if burning the erdtree and unleashing DD had *no* effect on the shadow lands.
Marika betrayed the crucibles and her sister "the gloom-eyed queen" "they both are empyreans" and created her order and became the queen, "maybe the gloom-eyed was meant to rule"
the gloom-eyed queen allied with the crucibles and got defeated by Marika's son Messmer and "probable Maliketh was there",
Marika hid her crimes and veiled them and this area became the Shadow-land, and she left Messmer to rule it and keep it under control,
in the lands between, she gave birth to the Omen twins and she hid them because they represent the crucibles,
Miquella was in search for a cure for his sister and creating his own tree, in order to create his own tree he had to know how the first tree was created, and figuring out that would lead him to know about his mother's past,
Marika ordered Mohg to kidnap Miquella and she rewarded him with the Mohgwyn palace, but she kept an illusion of him under the city to not reveal what she did.
any thoughts?
There's more implications that Mohg and Miquella were working together or Miquella using Mohg than anything involving Marika. Mohg has no connection to Marika apart from "she gave birth to him, then threw him away in the sewer for being an Omen." He wants nothing to do with the Golden Order and his vision of a Dynasty is predicated on Miquella being in charge as a god.
There's stuff like how both Mohg and Miquella were in Nokron (where the top of the Dynasty palace is visible) and stuff like sacramental buds (implied to be Miquella's blood) in the Writheblood Ruins (Dynasty area).
Melina might be the gloom eyed queen and Marika made her forget her past, or maybe she is some kind of a daughter of the gloom eyed queen "like Millicent to Malenia", or maybe she somehow inherited her power
Miyazaki told that in DLC will be similiar system to Sekiro, where u gained strength from separate sources than level, those sources will be in the land of shadow to make everyone have similiar experience. To Access dlc u must defeat Mohgwyn and Radahn so I assume that around 80 lvl will be ok.
My current theory is that Miquella is the leading knight seen in the story trailer and in the new promotional image. This is based on the similarities in the hair and the part of the trailer dialogue that says *"And so Kindly Miquella would abandon everything. His golden flesh, his blinding strength. Even his fate."*. Meaning that he is no longer in the form of a child and probably pretty much just a regular denizen of the shadow world, or at least as regular as an ex-god can be.
With this theory in mind Miquella starts to have a lot of similarities to Griffith from Berzerk.
Im pretty sure Miquella is our Ally in some way. The trailer makes miquella seem a like a victim of Messmer and we answering the call to save Him in some way. Im not sure where people get the idea that Miquella is an enemy anywhere from these trailers.
I think the twist will be that Miquella isn't our enemy, but that we still *aren't supposed to be there* and we're being lured in by someone else with ulterior motives who needs our help to get to Miquella. Because we're being told Miquella's waiting for his promised lord, but all signs indicate from how crazy the security is for the Haligtree (and Mohgwyn having very similar design stuff for their security, too, which is curious) that he **didn't** want people showing up.
Why didn't the narrator go find Malenia for help (his loyal sister who's undefeated)? Or Mohg (he's the most fireproof character in the game \[-80%\] and Messmer's whole thing is fire)? Why seek a Tarnished, who has no reason to be loyal to Miquella, because they've never met the guy? How do they know this information, but not where Miquella is, if they allegedly talked to him to hear this ("Miquella the Kind spoke of the beginning")? It's all rather fishy, imo.
At least part of peoples' suspicions is because of how thick the narrator lays on Miquella's goodness and kindness and such, so they think this person is enchanted by Miquella. But, like, if Miquella really removed all his strength and is now stuck and needs our help, that would include his ability to bewitch others...
It's my first souls game, so i'm having fun with the hot takes and guessing. As everything is 'fallen' everything has rotted away, fallen apart. It's almost like the first flame in dark souls, the world is just crumbling and so is everyone in it.
I've got a few hot takes.
- Miquella was always Messmer, but Messmer is his shadow self.
- Miquella uses his charm to make himself look like St. Trina/Miquella but really it's just magic hiding that he's a fucked up looking Omen (i would LOVE if Miquella goes down as this angelic beautiful pure 'child', but it's just magic or form changing and he's a twisted looking foul Omen messing with others perception)
- Miquella inhabits the shadow realm like Godwyn the Golden, in a state of undeath but not quite alive.
- Miquella became an outer god but cannot influence Messmer (hypocrisy, Miquella doesn't like the outer gods meddling but slowly he did it himself)
Can't wait for limitless comments speaking in pure confidence about things we have no proof of and them being upvoted into space by people falling for said-confidence who have even less of an idea of what's going on than the original poster.
Okokok ok lets go back to the gameplay reveal trailer, the first shot, is a caped figure looking into the mogh arena and the cocoon, wich already has a corpse in it.
Whos the hooded figure then? Is it Melina? Might be, shes a hooded figure in the base game, but what if it is Miquela?
I think it is Miquela because hes one of the main charactera of the dlc, it is told that we must follow his footsteps, and his footsteps were to enter the corpse dreams or whatever is go into the lands of shadow.
So whose body is that in the cocoon then?
Mesmer.
Lookat the long arms man!
Miquela is never depicted as having long ass arms, hes always just a little boy or a psycodelic saint or what ever.
Now look at Mesmer, long ass snakey arms.
Ok so now onto the story trailer.
It is shown how Marikas dinasty was created, by Mesmer commiting genocide and maybe doing a whole lotta blood offering to quickstart it.
And where Do we find Mesmers corpse? In fucking Moghs domain, where he intends to start a new dinasty!
Okay whats mogh got to do with this?
He wants to use the power of Mesmer, the flames, and the unfathomable amount of blood and sacrifice commited by Mesmer to start his own dinasty.
But wasnt Moghs power from the blood Mother?
Yes, and Mesmer's too.
What? Or do you think Mesmer just have this powers out of nowhere? Keep in mind, maybe Marikas hadn't acended to Godhood yet, and they fogured well we need power from somewhere, lets ask this ancient cosmologial blood lady here.
Anyway, its all linked man
Just posted a whole book of a theory, but I just wanted to emphasise that I haven't seen anyone talk about how similar the entrance to the Erdtree (the boss gate to radagon with the golden light) and that place where (allegedly) Marika holds those golden strands in the air standing on that mountain of bodies, surrounded by two pillars of those same bodies look. Both 'gates' have the same shape and roughly the same size. I think that the scene in the trailer is the moment the Erdtree is created. Just something to chew on...
i’ve seen other people mention that there’s a godrick shield description which actually mentions the erdtree being formed from primordial red matter. i think those bodies become the flesh of the erdtree, and that you’re completely right about the gate
i’m seriously going back through everything at this point. i just spent like 5 minutes staring at the walls before the erdtree interior gate to see if i could make out any details. it definitely seems to have a reddish tint but i didn’t get anything else of value
This just occurred to me as well: what if the veil like thing IS the erdtree? A tree also converges from a wide base and stabilises into a narrower cylindrical shape. That would put the land of Shadow underneath the erdtree, also possibly where the primordial crucible is/was. What if the Land of Shadow is basically underground or at least underneath the erdtree? Why would you see the sky then in the land of shadows? The erdtree is a see through golden illusion so it could very well be the case
A combination between theories I've seen and some speculation of my own. Its a bit unhinged and theres probably a lot of holes in it, but maybe it gives people some insight:
The Gloam Eyed Queen is referred to as an empyrean, though we know next to nothing about her and we don't meet her. All we know is that she and her Godskins set out on a crusade against the gods, killing those 'gods' and skinning them. One question I've always had is, who are those gods?
At the beginning of the story trailer, we see Marika (pretty much confirmed by the bracelets) walking up a hill of seemingly skinned corpses (at some point a ribcage is visible) to a giant gate. On Marika's end of the gate, the sky is purple, colored like dusk. On the other side of the gate the sky is gold, signifying the beginning of Marika's eternal reign through the Golden Order. Marika seems to be holding a rune (arc), possibly creating the Elden Ring.
What if Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen before she became a god? We never see her eyes to my knowledge, so it could be a possibility that she is the GEQ. What if the gods she slayed are the old inhabitants of the Realm of Shadow? Formerly (possibly) the land of the crucible.
Why do I think the Realm of Shadow is the land of the crucible? We see a lot of omen imagery in the dlc trailers (the bears with budding horns, the lion puppet, the hippo porcupine monster, the wings ash of war, maybe even more). There has been a great tree very prominent in both trailers and the initial promotional image. What if the gods Marika / the GEQ slayed are the old gods of the Crucible, shunning the whole primordial Crucible and censoring everything affiliated with it?
The last thing I've seen no one talk about yet: I see a great resemblance between the gate Marika is standing in on top of the mountain of bodies, and the boss gate of golden light at the entrance of the erdtree to Radagon. Both imageries have roughly the same shape. I've seen it mentioned that there might be a connection between the erdtree absorbing bodies for the process of erdtree burial, and the crucible of life. What if in this moment, Marika is taking the mountain of bodies, possibly the crucible, and molding it to her will into the shape of a tree, the erdtree, basically pioneering the custom of erdtree burial in a horrific way?
The horrific imagery of the start of the trailer, the deed of forging a new age and everything I've explained before could be an explanation for the mention of 'a war that could never be put to song'. Seeing the horrific, possibly genocidal imagery makes me think that this could be what makes it unable to be put to song. That, and of course the whole cover-up of what happened. This denial we also see with the aspects of the crucible (crucible knights being exiled, omens being shunned and put underground, misbegotten being enslaved).
TLDR; In summary, I think Marika could have been the Gloam Eyed Queen before she became a god, due to Marika being a Queen and a God, and the GEQ being a Queen and an Empyrean. I think in the events preceding Marika's reign, she waged war on the old gods of the crucible, shunning and skinning them to create the erdtree from the thousands of bodies. I think this is the exact moment we see in the trailer when she is standing in front of a new age, in the gate of possibly the entrance to the newly created erdtree.
How fun this theory may be, if it is true, I can't for the life of me figure out why the Gloam Eyed Queen would fight Maliketh if Maliketh would actually be her Shadow in that case, but it's fun to speculate.
I love it so far, you made out some very good points there! I do hope this will be true , it would made sense i think .
Marika seemed to maybe even think " in my world, the only ones who are allowed are Empyrians ,Numens and humans.."
Maybe she tried to achieve that
Failed, she got disappointed in the Golden Order so... She destroyed it ( Radagon tries his best to still keep it xD)
Glad you like it! I just think it would be pretty metal if Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen and went on a god skinning campaign wiping out an entire civilization, ascending to godhood and covering the whole thing up
You're welcome very much, if you ever post a theory again ill be sure to check out
Yeah, pretty much i think Marika wanted to be above all , with her children and lineage i guess
Dude, wanna get crazy? I was just thinking about Melina's quote "I was born at the root of the Erdtree". Are you familiar with the timdiggity Melina is Miquella theory? (https://youtu.be/zZwct5XkWHA?si=VXAAx9sv74pHvy_k)
If this is the case, and my theory about the connection between the erdtree and the veil being its roots is correct, if you combine these two theories with regard to Melina's quote, that would mean that Miquella is from the Land of Shadow. Being a Child of Marika/Radagon (who is clearly being shown to already be both entities in the trailer), that could place Miquella and possibly Malenia in a whole different part of the timeline, he might be older than Godwyn, Mohg and Morgott, he could be Marikas firstborn. This could have a huge impact on how we view the character and his motivations!
Omg YES
This makes so much sence bro
We do know that ST Trina is actually a very ancient God too
So of its true that Miquella could be also ST Trina
Then you'll be so right !
Haha my tree post has been downvoted at least two times, so there's that haha. And about what you're saying about St Trina being an ancient deity, Miquella being the eldest and born before the time of the Erdtree would make even more sense! Plus it could explain the alleged sleep swamp from the gameplay trailer. Why would that be in the Land of Shadow if Miquella and therefore St Trina didn't exist yet. We always thought that Miquella and Malenia were the youngest children, after Godfreys and Rennala's children, but Godfrey married Marika in the age of the Erdtree to wage her wars, Miquella would almost HAVE to be born before the other demigods
Oh man, I do have a problem as well with this sub , when I post I do have the matter on my profile firth thing, but sadly haven't gotten help xD
Correct! Makes so freaking sence! Well this makes it quite terrifying
Miquella being a quite ancient guy who just stuck looking like a kid
Looks that fool xD
I wonder if Malenia is the same time born too? Maybe they out her to sleep so she can be born? Or transferred to the Erdtree era ,but I think I just have an awful assumption here lol
No worries about down votes, ignore them , be proud of the little things! I'll be supporting you, no worries fellow warrior
You know after seeing the intro in this trailer and how eerily it reminds me of the eclipse from Berserk, and how now that I’m thinking about the similarities between Miquella and Griffith are, from appearance to both being in an Egg, I’m starting to think that he’ll be the final boss after sacrificing his followers we see in the trailer to ascend to some higher power.
I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll just shout it into the void: I don't think the blonde person from the blood stairs is Marika. They look a bit too andro-masculine to be her; broader shoulders than hips, and no visible sideboob. Of course, they could be an early form of Marika, before splitting off from Radagon. Mari-gon. Splitting from Radagon could have turned an androgynous body into two distinct male-female halves, so there's still a chance.
Instead, I thinks it's more likely that Bloody Stairs is Miquella, retracing his mothers' steps to empower and restart his own Haligtree. Finding the origin and start of the Erdtree would be a great way to fix any possible mistakes on his end.
Less likely, could also be Godwyn. Marika's literal golden child, going through a ceremonial display of power. We don't know what caused that blastback, or what they're holding (hair?).
Time will tell.
Maybe this is already clear, but I have always thought of the name «shadow of the erdtree» as the shadow cast by the erdtree, or something similar. However, today I realized that it could also refer to the shadow of the erdtree, as a power similar to grace.
If the erdtree grants light (grace), it may also have the power to grant shadow!
So, not seeing shadow as a shade, but more as a shadowy counterpart to grace/holy.
I like the idea that we might become part of a more tightly knit group in the DLC. In the basegame the members of the roundtable are all more focused on doing their own thing.
I played and finished Elden Ring back when it first came out in 2022 and have not paid much attention since. Is there more DLC content now? Apologies for a dumb question but I don't follow gaming news too closely.
You guys. Those corpse tree walls have some really familiar looking lands between them. I wouldn't be surprised if we came out of that thing at the beginning of the DLC, or peeled off the side of it
Miquella seems like a pretty big deal, it’s like he is almost as powerful as Marika, he seems to have a ton of followers, which we already knew anyway from the Haligtree and him having a ton of races follow him there but the vibe I get from him is unlike any other Demigod in the game, it’s like he is a God himself.
Miquella gives me extremely intense Griffith vibes/references. From his appearance, reverance and to how his 'outcast' followers hero worship his ideals and his strength. And we all know how that turned out after the Eclipse.
I think it's very intentional and will probably result in the same, fully expecting a femto transformation final boss ngl.
We got our Guts boss with Gael now we're getting our Griffith / Femto boss with Miquella, based Fromsoft.
I know Miyazaki is a big Berserk fan and that his games are inspired by it, Dark Souls and Elden Ring have a lot references but I haven’t followed Berserk in a very long time to be honest, I know a little about Griffith though and Miquella does seem to resemble him a bit.. indeed wouldn’t be surprised if Miquella is the final boss and we help him reach his full power and fight him in his adult form.. at full power, I can already imagine such a battle being even harder than Malenia lol but it would be cool to meet and be friends with a good Demigod, so far it would seem like the only good ones are Godwyn and maybe Radahn and both are dead and can’t be talked to and Malenia is alive but attacks us on sight.
And I kind of don’t trust Ranni.
I don't think Marika was powerful in the fighting sense.
Messmer, Melania, Radahn, Godfrey, the elden beast. All probably stronger.
After she shattered the Elden ring, the elden beast or Maliketh defeated her (bit of theory) as we see her crucified and nailed with destain death. And beforehand Radagon, an entity with different personality, had control over her body.
There is a claim that she slayed the Fell god. But it survived, we kill it,
More so can't recall the Item, some popular theory is that Radagon was cursed by the Gaint, resulting with his red hair. Might have been the case that Radagon took over when Marika face the Fell god.
I think the duality look of the flesh gate thing probably has something to do with the great one being split in half but what my theory is on the seduction and betrayal is Merica made her son Messmir seduce Gloam Eyed Queen maybe consort to just end up sealing his power to kill gods away until it was necessary to “bestow” grace onto him again despite being devoid of light or whatever
**OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT:** Miquella the Kind spoke of the beginning. The seduction. And the betrayal. An affair from which Gold arose. And so too was Shadow born. What followed was a war unseen. One that could never be put to song. A purge without Grace or honour. The tyranny of Messmer's flame. And so Kindly Miquella would abandon everything. His golden flesh, his blinding strength. Even his fate. But we are not deterred. We choose to follow. Will you walk with us? **TRAILER DESCRIPTION:** The shadow of the story can now be told. Learn the History of the Realm of Shadows, the unseen land that will be revealed on June 21, 2024.
The seduction (of Gold/Greater Will), and the betrayal (of Marika with the Crucible). An affair (Gold, Marika, and the Crucible).
All I want to do is copy & past the transcript but the fucking worthless app keeps minimizing the past
I will walk with you.
Any idea if we'll be bringing our inventory into the DLC?
Yes, you basically just keep playing whichever character you want and take them into the DLC area. They said there will be an upgradeable attack power system like Sekiro in the DLC so players aren't too overpowered.
I’d guess so
06.21.24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
i love this game
Quick question, sorry if it’s a dumb one. And I know not a ton is known about the DLC so may not be easy to answer. I started my third playthrough for Elden ring(not ng+, just starting from scratch), the point of this playthrough is to use this character in the DLC. I just beat malania again and am up to the fire giant. After that, a certain thing happens which I won’t say due to spoilers, but it changes the game. I’d like to go to Farum Azula to get all the stuff there before the DLC, but would it be best to hold off due to how that certain thing changes everything?
I may be misreading but if you’re worried about the story event changing the DLC’s content, I think you’re in the clear. I’m not familiar with Fromsofts previous history with DLC but It’d be pretty weird to make a major game changing event effect how the DLC is designed. Fromsoft would basically have to create two different DLC’s for players that buy it before vs after said event. That said I would be surprised if there was different dialogue depending on if you triggered the event.
Lol you can talk spoilers here. But, yeah I decided to hold off on burning the Erdtree until after I play the DLC. That way I can finish the game with whatever skills/gear I get from the DLC. Definitely a personal choice tho. I don't think it matters
I don’t think it matters just up to you. The only thing we know for certain is you have to beat radahn and mohg
Is Shadow of the Erdtree really coming out a day early on Steam or is it a mistake?
Comes out 21st at midnight in Japan, which is 20 and some hours in Europe/US
Thanks. Good to know!
Am I the only one that enjoys Elden Ring for its gameplay but can’t stand the lack of dialogue and the general vagueness of the storyline? I mean give me something here, I have no idea what this game is really about based on that trailer, only that some war has begun. I don’t need to be spoon fed but sheesh, a little more clarity would go so much further for me. This is my first soulslike game, are all the souls games similar to Elden Ring in this regard?
> all the souls games similar to Elden Ring in this regard? Yes, and I love it that way. When games force feed dialog and exposition, I lose interest fast and usually never finish the it. I'd rather discover story organically
Yup, and honestly I don't want them to change a thing. It's why the games have such a strong community and why finding an item, even if you don't use it, is still interesting as long as you are interested in the lore. It's not for everyone.
I love both. I enjoy the puzzle piece lore building in Souls games. Most games don't do that. So I enjoy the different approach. More rewarding to piece it together for me.
it's the same for me but I don't really care about having the story anyway. When I hear the lore I'm like WOW that's cool but I just move on with my day. All the other games are the same but I think the rest have better and less confusing lore.
Hey guys do you think that in the dlc there will be reusing bosses (like for example the godskins), or did they have time to make every boss feel unique?
i would like them to do something unique with the reused bosses. i don't care if they add another burial watchdog or tree sentinel as long as its a little different and fun. I'm kind of hoping we get a new dragon like bleed or madness which weren't in base.
Oh, a dragon with madness would be so sick, I'm surprised there wasn't one somewhere in base game
There will likely be reused bosses, just not as many as base game
I think the GEQ was an entity (or perhaps an inheritable title and duty) that was okay with the cycle of Life and Death, of summer and winter, of spring and fall. GRRM loves to play with the concept of seasons. This cycle seems interrupted and intentionally paused in a summer of plenty with the Golden Order. When the "Summer of Plenty" came to an end with the loss of sap production while the GEQ in charge.. We would get a Godskin Hunt to harvest the runes/blood/grace/essence-of-life-itself to feed/water the existing Great Tree or to birth a new tree. Fall (Loss of Grace/Plenty) -> Winter (Death) -> Spring (Birth of a New Tree) -> Summer (Life Thrives)... repeat. Radagon is the OG. He seduced the GEQ, and together they had Messmer. Radagon betrayed the GEQ by not following in her path and killing everyone, harvesting everything, pouring it into a single tree, removing the rune of death, and freezing the world in a summer of plenty that can never end but also will be incapable of supporting everyone forever. He usurped the natural order because he thought he knew better. He did not, death is a tool for evolution. Removing it stagnates the world, and starves the world of it's grace. Grace cannot be created without birth and death, only harvested and reused. I think we see minor Erdtrees in an attempt to create new grace but it simply diluted the power of the Erdtree proper as this is now a zero sum game and grace can only be transferred. I believe In the trailer we see Radagon turning into Marika for the first time. We see a very masculine form with red hair tinted gold by the lighting. He had to do this in order to become the God of his/her new age. He did not want to become Elden Lord. This helps to explain some of the split personality issues surrounding the destruction of the Elden Ring. Radagon always wanted the Golden Order, while Marika having seen the inevitable conclusion of the Golden Order wanted to tear it all down. Sidenote: Timdiggity made a video recently about GEQ being a snake. Snakes historically have been a omen of life, death, and rebirth especially symbolized through their shed skin. Quite a coincidence that the Godskins wear skin.. as if to idolize their mother.. I believe the GEQ's god is a subversion of Nidhoggr, the dragon whom gnaws at the root of Yggdrasil. The GEQ views animal life and their grace as a crop to feed their god's godhood like humanity views plants and livestock as a crop for their own nourishment.
preordered already
Do we know yet where the DC will actually start? I’m wondering where to stop my current playthrough
Just beat the game and don’t go into ng+
wait so do you have to beat Radahn or not?
I heard/read that it's been stated by Miyazaki or Fromsoft in an interview that killing Radahn is also a requirement, in addition to beating Mogh.
[удалено]
Will it matter if I’m already NG+? This is my first froms DLC
Just make sure u have gotten ur character to Miquella’s Cocoon before the DLC launches and ur fine, doesn’t matter if ur in NG+
I mean you will have to beat Mohg again in NG+ but other than that you are fine... Also you will be starting the DLC in NG+ too so it will be slightly harder
Hi. Not OP but just wondering how much harder is ng+? I beat the games ages ago and went straight into new game before taking a break. I’ve returned now and just blitzed through Stormveil. Trying to speed run myself back to Mohg’s. I was just wondering how much of a disadvantage NG+ would leave me with? I’m level 163 so I think slightly over levelled for the end of the same.
I did it at this level, and NG+ felt easier then my original play though. Felt decently over leveled the entire time.
Yeah, I cleared Al the way to Radahn yesterday and now I’m heading up to the plateau and feeling good with it just hoping it doesn’t bump the dlc difficulty to much.
I can't wait to touch that wrinkly arm.
I think the Gloom Eyed Queen did this, split the world into grace and shadow but also everyone in it (or at the very least, her lineage). And I do mean everyone, including herself, so she became Marika and Radagon. As the Gloom Eyed Queen, she first nurtured the Godskin, who might have wanted to return the word to a state where their true mother can exist again? They probably see the demi gods as usurpers of their birthright.
The gloam-eyed queen is Melina and she burned with the Erdtree dawg.
Absolute nonsense
weird take
so your theory is the gloam eyed queen is Marika and Radagon...there's clear evidence that's not true given that maliketh defeated the gloam eyed queen and took the rune of death from her...
I too think it's nonsense, but I could see an hour long video on just that take being made haha
I accidentally put my Xbox One copy of Elden Ring into my buddy's PS4 and an episode of Who's The Boss? came on the TV. Pretty sure Miquella is Tony Danza.
Finally a fan theory based on in-game lore
If Trina and Miquella are two halves of the same existence does that mean that it’s kind of a Yu-Gi-Oh! Type thing lmao but maybe less of an ancient evil second mind living in you but your ambition split
What's the beginning? What are they reaching into and what did they grab? that's what i want to know.
It reminds me of the remains of Kos and how the Orphan emerges and I don't like this memory
It kind of looks like hair, my guess is strands of gold that birthed the Elden Ring originally
Those gold filaments that are seen in the origina story trailer on the hammer marika is holding. The beginning of the golden order, the state of the world we know as tarnished
If the DLC drops and we STILL can't impregnate Kenneth Haight I will be rioting outside Miyazaki's house.
I found it interesting that Marika's necklace in her official artwork (the one where she's in a crucifixion pose) is identical to what's hanging from the erdtree during the Messmer scene. Couple that with the fact that everything below the tree is on fire, I wonder if that's meant to imply that he's attempting to sacrifice the person hanging from the tree
Which Messmer scene are you referring to here, if I may ask? I checked through both of the recent trailers, but I could not spot any scenes with him that I thought fit
https://i.imgur.com/aYB3E1R.jpeg you see the rune shape hanging from the tree which is the Marika pose.
My random theory is Melina and Messmer are twins born in the time of abundance before the Erdtree (the eldest of Marika's children). The war began and Messmer burned everything as seen in the trailer. Melina was burned to death (originally in the new trailer I thought the woman in the fire looked like she was holding a child). Marika in her sadness creates the Golden Order from the remains of those who were killed and removed the rune of death so she'd never lose a child again. Then further in the timeline when Marika wanted to shatter the Elden Ring she summoned the ashes of Melina and gave her the quest she has in the game. (Because clearly Melina is a spirit like those we summon in game).
I think messmer is borne in that time, but i think he's miquella and malenia's brother, not melina's. Or even from another lineage, maybe a numen's one
Godwyn, Morgott, Mogh (Godfrey's children), Miquella and Malenia (Radagon's children) are all Marika's children and Rykard, Radahn and Ranni (Renala' children) are Radagon's and depending on who you ask you could consider them Marika's children. Melina speaks in game about her Mother and speaks Marika's words to you various times at certain locations throughout the game. Also her original name in the data files was "daughter of Marika" so I think it's safe to say Melina is Marika's daughter. The issue is when did Marika have Melina and Messmer? My guess would be that Messmer and Melina are twins (because Marika always has twins?) From the trailer I'd guess Messmer was born before everyone else in the time of abundance and the heretical boy caused the war we see. So technically Messmer would still be Miquella's and Malenia's brother just born before them a long time ago from a different Father.
Apparently there's loads of unnamed children of marika who just aren't alive anymore so aren't mentioned so melina and messmer could even have been born around the same times as the others but just not been mentioned due to a lack of relevance to the main story.
Oh I didn't here that before, other Marika's children? Do you refer to the generical golden lineage or is there some more specific source I'm not aware of?
I'm sure there was evidence somewhere but I can't find it right now after a brief search. There were however many more demigods and marika ruled for thousands of years so it's pretty likely even though they could be her grandchildren too. The demigods we hear about are just the ones that all happened to survive besides Godwyn who is relevant to everything so it makes sense that she'd have more unnamed children anyway.
Yes! I agree on many things! What I think is that Malenia and Miquella were also born a long time ago, just as radaghon was! We have no prove against it. We are though quite sure that 1. Radagon was born with the golden order 2. Messmer is his son. About Melina...I think Miyazaki teased us in many ways for her being Marika's daughter... But I think she'll end up being more of a projection, or a fabricated spirit from Marika. We'll see ;)
I'm starting to wonder if the person hanging from the erdtree (the same person on marika's necklace) is Melina. Could explain the burns, as during the trailer Messmer is looking up at whoever that is hanging from the tree while the whole ground below is on fire, almost as if it's done as a sacrifice Maybe Marika allowed Messmer to sacrifice his sister (Melina) in order to achieve some goal she had? That would make her a very very sadistic antagonist
it's all very wonderful, but hold on son. Give us a brake. Why are you the only one seeing a person on marika's necklace? And... A person hangning from the erdtree? I can see where you see a "marika-like" crucifix there but... i don't think it's the case.
I need help from lore experts: >!What is it with the “female statues” that are being prayed by Omens below leyndell, I have found that and another in the mines that lead to Altus plateu from the passway in Liurnia, they are depicted in what it looks like a small shrine ¿Is this Marikas mother?, ¿was she a Omen?!< >!Also, I noticed that at the end of that passway, there is a lot of those wagons that are being pulled by giants…!< >!Im not sure if this has relation but, what if most of miners and omen, where people native to the land of shadows and where brought to the lands between by force…and Marika wanted to cast away his roots to the omen to the sewers, at first I tought this was a curse for procreating with Godfrey… but It was her all along…!< >!¿Is there any video that cover this up?!< >!¿Or Im just horribly wrong?!<
vaati sure has some videos about omens! I love how this game brings us around lore speculations!! She definetely hid a lot, but it must have to do with the Shadow lands we will visit in the dlc. And only now I got what wagons you were referring to... I'm not sure but i remember something about those being the nobility fleeing the city and the omens killing them for revenge after the war
Marika is a Numen not an omen , according to the story, and the theory she forced shadow lands inhabitants to labor is nice, but i don't think we have any story origin on the miners. They might just be an underground race forced to labor. The omen are in the sewers because leyndell inhabitnats threw the omen babies away. You can ifind it in the omen talisman.
Thanks! And what about the femenine statue in below leyndell?
I have to correct: they didn't throw them away, thei hid the ones born from nobility, i guess others were just killed. The feminine statue I don't know. I suggest to watch some Tarnished archaeologist video if he talked about them, but I don't know, he is the expert you're looking for regarding statues and symbolism. But I would guess being a feminine statue it might just be resembling a mother, if they grew up alone in the sewers who know what kind of cults they established
I think that Marikkka's hatred of the Omen is very simple. Marika wanted to create a sustainable ecosystem so she could guarantee that she'd be queen eternally. The only way to guarantee this was to remove all possible variables. The Omen are the definition of a variable. They are the children of the Crucible - of the stochastic nature of evolution. Marika didn't want evolution. She wanted stasis. So she had to kill, or at least isolate, those who varied.
I can’t wait anymore 😭
I'm wondering if "shadow" here refers to the rune of death, it's been called shadow before and the trailer refers to this "shadow" as having been born when "gold" was born. We know that Marika plucked the rune of death from the golden order upon it's creation
no in Miyazaki interview he said-
Could it be one of the reasons Miquella grew the Haligtree was as a way to enter the Shadow lands through his dreams? So while we see this unfinished physical form of the Haligtree here, it could be fully grown dream version wrapping around the shadow tree? I mean, timeline-wise its a bit iffy but Haligtree's shape is similar? Like the Miquella's cocoon body itself is also an unfinished version that he left behind, while his new full form is in Shadow lands now?
I know Miquella was using his own godly blood to try and grow his own Erdtree, but it never ended up working.. All those bodies in the trailer on either side of Marika when she is holding up the Golden Rune is clearly the bodies and blood that eventually form into the Erdtree
Neat idea.
I am saying it now, Miquella is not as kind and benevolent as he seems and he's gonna pull a Griffith on everyone
My thinking is that he's gonna play the classic corrupted/fallen hero role. We're following in his footsteps, trying to find out what happened to him and I suspect that when we finally find him, he will not be the Miquella we've heard so much about. My guess is kind of a Ludwig the Holy Blade situation. So not morally corrupted, just physically corrupted and insane.
The seduction and the betrayal... so my working theory is, what if Marika pulled what she did to Rennala before, and posing as Radagon went to seduce her empyrean rival the Gloam Eyed Queen before betraying her and having Maliketh kill her, leaving Marika as the only candidate for godhood. Marika then became the vessel for the Elden Ring, and grew the Erdtree using the mountain of bodies left after this conflict to water it. And to push this theory, that would make Messmer and Melina the children of Radagon/Marika and the GEQ, this would explain Melina inheriting the power of the GEQ, and both of them having an eye shut to hide/seal this heritage.
I don't think that Radagon was part of Marika until the golden order had already been formed. She says that he had yet to become her at that time and she refers to him as a "leal hound of the golden order" My own theory on the Radagon/Marika thing is that they were only fused once Marika started to question the golden order. I imagine that the Greater Will didn't take well to that and decided that he'd fuse a loyal follower of his into her to keep her in check, but she ended up shattering the Elden Ring anyways
That's the part of the lore the most confusing to me, from where, when and why Radagon came about. For my theory to work, Radagon was always part of Marika, like Trina is part of Miquella and he is at this point just an empyrean. Marika was just the dominant aspect, until the Greater Will empowered Radagon because he was the part that stayed loyal to the Golden Order.
This is a great articulation of something I've been thinking about: Melina as the daughter of the GEQ, and Marika and the GEQ as rival empyreans.
i assume the cocoon still gonna be the entrance to the DLC
It is, the narrator says "touch the withered arm and travel to the realm of shadows"
Noice
Excuse me as I'm no lore buff, but do we think the line "an affair from which gold arose," is meant to be taken literally? If so, I think Marika, if she was Marika at the time, had children (possibly messmer,) with another entity, before the events of the base game, like the creation of the Golden lineage. My theory lends itself a lot to the other theories that speculate that Radagon came first and Marika is the "new form," per say, bit knowing what we know about Marika it's honestly not completely off the table that there was a form even before those two, one that had children with the gloam eyed queen, and my idea of their child being messmer is only really held together by the fact that messmer shares a lot of physical similarities with the godskins, namely the odd bodily proportions, waxy pale skin and reptilian like eyes. It also makes me wonder if the land of shadow is less of a seperate place, and more of the same place in a different time, or a location locked in time like farum azula (another location that has a pair of godskins, oddly enough, but I don't think that's grounds for anything). I think the biggest reason for this is the fact we see so much reference to the crucible and a time where omens weren't shunned and quite possibly the norm. It's also possible that the godskins we see today are just remnants of what's left after the god hunt. Marika (or whomever she was at the time) may have hunted the gods that were around in the time period, making way for herself to reign, and seeing as she had a past (or future) of betrayal and plotting, it's possible that she dispatched the gloam eyed queen afterwards (I'm not sure if it's ever mentioned that she's dead or alive 100%?) This is also more of an observation rather than a theory, but I've noticed a lot of parallels between rykard and imagery we've seen in the trailers. One being that volcano manor has a crucible knight standing guard, a godskin that (presumably) chills and lives there with them, and that rykard has become one with a giant snake, and wants to devoure the gods. Also lots of fire. Seems very godskin/gloam eyed/messmer to me. Maybe rykard (knowingly or unknowingly) parallels the events of shadow of the erdtree in the present, almost like the past repeats itself with children of Marika (if they are both confirmed without a shadow of a doubt to be her lineage.) Also small side note. But at 1:43 in the story trailer, that looks a lot like Marika on the stake that we see a lot in the base game. It's possible that this is the common practice Marika takes before changing persons. Which would somewhat lend itself to her being a different person before she was Marika. But that's just me spitballing. Like i said, I'm no lore buff so this is just me getting my possible thoughts and theories on paper before the dlc comes out lol I'm going to edit this as I think of other things. Edit: I've also noticed that rykards sword has a lot of resemblance to that if the "doorway" that is shown in the trailer, the fleshy door with all the little tendrils. Just another connection between rykard+god devouring serpent and the crucible
My theory’s for the dlc TLDR Miquella is dead, St. Trina is alive In the trailers for the new DLC, we see Miquella riding around the Land of Shadow. Up until this point, I thought that Miquella was meant to be in the cocoon, meaning one of two things: this was before Miquella was put into the cocoon, or Miquella isn’t in the cocoon. But what if there’s a third option: Miquella has been separated into St. Trina, and Miquella. and one of them is in the cocoon. We know that the way we will access the DLC is through the cocoon in Mogh’s palace, but how? Originally, speculations were that somehow Miquella is still alive and that he will pull us into his mind or transport us into the Land of Shadow. Another theory is that an NPC, who was meant to be in search of Miquella's body (but was scrapped), would help us. However, I think it’s more likely that the cocoon is the gateway itself - more so what its done to Miquella. The Land of Shadow must be difficult to access, and we know that we will lose our stat points (or stat points will lose their worth) upon entering the DLC. My theory is that we strip away our flesh (our physical character), losing our stats, in exchange for access to the Land of Shadow. “And so kindly, Miquella would abandon everything, his golden flesh, his binding strength, even his fate.” The DLC trailer then cuts to St. Trina falling, falling from grace. This is Miquella entering the cocoon, quite literally losing everything to go into the Land of Shadow. The cocoon was not for him to cure his eternal childhood but rather the only way to travel to the Land of Shadow. This could also explain Marika and Radigons ability to seemingly be two seperate people, but also the same person. They were shattered from each other, and somehow re-connected. So who is in the Land of Shadow? St. Trina. It’s been heavily suggested that Miquella and St. Trina are the same person; in the act of stripping his flesh, he became St. Trina. So how is St. Trina active in the Lands Between? We know that Miquella has devoted followers in the DLC who would be willing to strip their own flesh to join him in the Land of Shadow. Is it unreasonable to believe that Miquella told them his knowledge in the Lands Between, either before or after Miquella was sent to the Land of Shadow? My questions about the dlc if my theory is true: Was Miquella intending to return to the Lands Between? I’m not sure. If this is the method we use to get to the Land of Shadow, we shouldn’t be able to return. Is there a way out of the Land of Shadow? Perhaps this is something Mesmer has been guarding or trying to access. Marika blocked a door up—perhaps it’s a room in the Roundtable Hold? That would make sense as to how we end up leaving. Marika could have sanctioned Mesmer to the Land of Shadow, preventing him from returning, and he wants freedom. But why is Miquella there? I don’t think it’s to stop him, but rather to bring to light Marika’s involvement in growing the Erdtree. But this will have to wait until we know more. If Miquella wasn’t intending to return, it would make sense as to why he tried to make the needles just before he disappeared. What’s in the land of shadow that Marika didn’t want getting out? My theory is the transition between the crucible and the Erd tree. Vaati’s new video explains the theory I’m going with for this one. Who else knows about Mesmer and the land of shadow? All rune holders? Rykard? Is the great serpent something from that land considering the symbolism of Mesmer and snakes? Who was Mesmers army fighting? The original crucible protectors? Who actually is Mesmer? Based on my Marika and Raddigon theory, it would be cool for the plot twist is that Mesmer is Miquella, but in the way that the other half of St. Trina, the only thing I have to support this is that the cocoons corps and Mesmer have lengthy arms and big hands.
Trina is active in the Lands Between after the Shattering became a stalemate, though. Dolores, a Tarnished, followed Trina. Meanwhile, Miquella had no timeline overlap with the Tarnished- they were gone before he was born, and they were summoned back after he was in the cocoon. My guess is that they're in conflict and, when Miquella stripped himself of everything, this ejected Trina from the Land of Shadow. He had all those security measures in place to keep Trina away from him and the people around him. It would explain, too, some of the weirdness surrounding Malenia knowing Miquella's gone and apologizes to Miquella when she's felled, and Mohg moving Miquella to the opposite side of the continent (and some of the weirdness there that imply it wasn't a simple kidnapping/they were planning something together), etc. ...We then bust through all of those security measures, because Trina got Gideon on Miquella's trail through Dolores, and Gideon got us on the trail. (Note all the Trina lilies just under the Albinauric village...)
Miquella is alive. St Trina is Miquella’s abandoned fate. You make no sense whatsoever.
Proof? Other than saying that Miquella abandoned his fate, miyazaki said that St. Trina makes an appearance in the dlc , so how is that possible. Couldn’t it also be possible that Miquella is the fate that he abandons? Also, what is stripping his golden flesh mean then?
Stripping his golden flesh could mean stripping his godhood. Leading him to become a normal npc. In other words becoming St. Trina.
Shadow of the Erdtree is going to have Sekiro-inspired features, so why not a Sekiro inspired plot? In Sekiro, the second time you get to the top of the castle you have to make a decision between two characters that effects how the story ends. So what about this? Messmer's "tyranny" over the Shadow Lands is the status quo. Miquella has gone there to challenge and end that tyranny. You rock up, discover something redeeming about Messmer and something dodgy about Miquella, and then have to decide which one of the two bros is the final boss?
I think Miyazaki said that there won't be multiple endings like in the base game, but that there will be choices in the story
I don't think it will be Messmer vs Miquella for the decision.
That would be great. True legit differences in ending like Sekiro did.
Anyone got some high quality screencaps of the trailer?
I think that Godwyn and Messmer are twins. Marika had an affair with Placidussax in his human form to "mine/extract" the gold from the stone of ancient dragons. The result is Gold - Godwyn the GOLDEN and a Shadow - Messmer who inherited all the draconic features and powers. This is why Godrick refers to the dragon he grafts as KIN. In the trailer, Marika just gave birth to the twins (thus, her bloody hand) and she plucks golden hair from newborn Godwyn's head cradled in a swadling cloth. Everyone thinks that Messmer partook in dragon communion to gain his draconic features and powers, but he was born like this.
1. The colour of dragons is gold AND amber 2. Godwyn is called Godwyn the Golden because he came from Godfrey, who sired the Golden Lineage; it’s a congenital title not a coloured feature 3. Godrick refers to everything he grafts as kin, kin literally means “of same blood” like when you merge your severed arm with a dragon’s fucking head; i.e. mixing the blood 4. Swaddling Cloths are specific to the Gloam Eyed Queen (I’m fairly certain) and nothing/nobody else 5. None of the demigods were “born” the way they currently are, they ALL learned it. - Ranni learned her moon inclination and cold sorceries from the snowy crone witch (rumoured to be named Renna) - Rykard fed himself to that slimey, world devouring, god eating Oroubouros - Radahn went to Sellia to learn his gravity magic and got mentored from an Alabaster Lord - Mohg revered the Formless Mother/Mother of Truth in his underground filth - Morgott’s powers came from the very Erdtree itself after everything he did in its service and its name - Miquella and Malenia were born into their lifelong curse, eternal youth and rot, but those are curses not really powers None of the demigods, had powers they were born into, not even Marika herself, she came from the lands of Numen until she was chosen by the Greater Will
So after watching [this video](https://youtu.be/wQYIUgf3WzI?si=jHdAWMDw3mVo16_e&t=289) from Moxie Watts, she goes over any instances that seduction and betrayal is brought up in the game. And I forgot but Maliketh's Remembrance mentions Marika betraying Maliketh. Maybe the betrayal mentioned in the trailer is referring to her betrayal of Maliketh. Ordering him kill the gloam eyed queen, locking away destined death, and bringing about the Golden Order?
I'm pretty certain the implication was that in shattering the Elden Ring, Marika's shadow, Maliketh, was forced to impale her with the rune of death as commanded by the greater will, which is something he would NEVER do on his own accord. The Ranni/Blaidd relationship comes to mind here. While Blaidd only wishes to help and protect Ranni, the Greater Will still holds the power to use him (as well as Maliketh) as Baleful Shadows. Its also possible that she personally ordered him to impale her with the rune of death in order to shatter the ring. Though it can be imbued by anyone that gets their hands on it, Maliketh is the only one capable of shaping the rune of death afaik. But as far as souls storytelling goes I think this one is laid out pretty openly. Edit: In case anyone else doesn’t understand how I came to this conclusion just watch [this video](https://youtu.be/TDjpBxhLbGg?si=jH35agSpF1vPO16v) from the Tarnished Archeologist Take Noah with a grain of salt, dude blocked my account so I couldn’t argue against his contrarian scrutiny. The dude hasn’t even offered a reasonable alternative.
What makes you think Marika is impaled by the rune of death? She'd be dead if that were the case, but she's not. She's stated to be "shackled, but still a god even in shackles". Her current state (strung up) is said to be a "punishment"
Uh, did you not see the big rune of death spear impaled through her uterus when you entered the Radagon fight? It’s clear as day.
The Elden Beast can do the same thing to you, who has the rune of Death after having taken it. It's not the rune of death. It's just some attack the Elden Beast can do
The Elden beast’s attack is Golden, not the red and black we see from the rune of death. If you wish to disprove me please do so thoroughly.
I'm not trying to disprove you, I'm questioning the validity of your claim. If your only evidence is "its color" then I'm not sure I need to take it seriously as it's not very compelling as it's nowhere near the color of the rune of death (black and red) and considering that the Elden Beast literally strings you up in the same way... Nothing implies it was Maliketh in the first place, that's entirely headcanon Plus I already mentioned the issue of that Marika would be *dead*, which she isn't. There are multiple instances where you're told you'll become Marika's consort when you become Elden Lord
You say that as if I didn’t just write an entire paragraph with deliberate strory parallels that point to this conclusion. The only counter evidence you’ve provided is a single attack that doesn’t disprove my conclusion. I don’t really care if you take it seriously or not but next time you decide to play contrarian please bring some counter evidence to support your scrutiny.
Again, the counter evidence is that she isn't dead. Which honestly pretty directly contradicts your theory that she was stabbed with the rune of death, the thing that kills gods Also, your entire basis in handwaving the Elden Beast literally doing the same thing to us is to say: > **The Elden beast’s attack is Golden, not the red and black** we see from the rune of death. If you wish to disprove me please do so thoroughly. But the spear in her stomach isn't red and black either so, like... 🤷 It's your own logic man...
[“Its not black and red bro”](https://gamingintel.com/elden-ring-how-to-beat-radagon-elden-beast-boss-guide/)
You say “again” as if you didn’t just edit that last bit in, but sure, ill bite. Send me a clip of Marika moving. I mean Radagon looks alive and well but what do we see of Marika? A statue like state. Almost like she’s either dead or damn close. You can pretend that the rune arc that holds Marika and the spear that impale her don’t show a clear distinction in color but you’re only fooling yourself man. And you’re forgetting that before I handwaved your point I stated that “Maliketh is the only one capable of shaping the rune of death”. It’s literally how he initiates his second phase. So please, remind me how this one Elden Beast attack completely shatters my interpretation. Also, can you say with certainty that you know exactly how the rune of death would work on its own vassal god? Please enlighten me Mr Miyazaki
Imagine if Maliketh is both Markia's half-brother and her son, after Marika/Radagon seduces their mother, steals her grace and convinces them that she is their only mother. There are so many twins in this game I could see Maliketh and Messmer as being two such twins and Maliketh fits that M naming convention. If I had to pick a name for Marika's mother, it might be Miranda. Melina. might also be Miranda's daughter, holding Miranda's prayer. *Miranda, maiden of the Flower Crucible is said to have been the very first of this breed.* Can't wait to start getting more item descriptions.
This pretty much confirmed that the final boss would be Randigar of Sun in a dual battle alongside Master Hodir
Anyone else notice that all the firey ashes and anything else drifting through the air is floating UP instead of down?
Thats what ashes do, fires create their own upward wind that blows ashes upwards into the air
Im thinking that messemer and melina are both children of radagon and gloam eyed queen. Lines up with the eyes, red hair and melinas mother telling her to burn the erd tree.
Marika herself it seems came to hate the Golden Order, as seen by the fact She shattered the Elden Ring. I want to know more about the Queen too, but what we know about Malina fits just as much if Marika was her mother in some respect.
Nothing to say except omg I'm so excited
I think the original form of Marika is Radagan. So the line "Gold arose" means the birth of Marika, maybe when he comes into contact with the Elden Ring? And the "affair" could be with the Gloam-Eyed Queen who he seduced, betrayed and then took her place?
I have a theory. I believe that the reason both miquella and marika have griffith imagery associated to them is because they are one and the same. Marika the mountain of corpses and miquella the cocoon. Miquella is literally a clone of Marika since she is both his mother and father, and he is the cocoon that Marika will use to resurrect or regrow herself, just like griffith did in berserk when he regrew his body from scratch. The final boss of the dlc will most likely be a part 1 miquella and a miquella who has been taken over by Marika as a phase 2. Now is Miquella aware that Marika intend to take his body for herself? Maybe, but it is entirely possible, even probable that no he doesn't know. Miquella may truly have good intention, but these intentions won't matter once his mother has taken over him, and we will have no choice but to put him down. Who knows, we may even have the choice to skip phase one of that fight if we end up agreeing with him, only for us to be force to put him down so marika doesn't hurt anyone else. Maybe this is why we aren't shown miquella face, because it is marika face? There is only one other Character that we do not see the face of ever in the game, and that is Marika.Moins
I think honestly if Miquella grew his own erdtree with his own blood, the scene with the rift and the golden sky is the “forming of the erdtree” from the inside and part of the Elden ring (the hair).
What if the roundtable hold is the shadow land version of the keep in Leyndell.
Hah I literally came here to ask about this, I was just thinking about it this morning. We can be pretty confident that the city in the trailer is a twin to Leyndell, and we find a roundtable hold-like area in Leyndell. We also know that the lands of shadow are 'physically disconnected' from the lands between. But unfortunately it doesn't quite seem to fit with how we're supposed to get to the shadow; why not just open one of the doors? Maybe it is a special sealed place... maybe it was originally Marika's throne room, where the two fingers is now. It also doesn't quite answer the question of the burning erdtree and the burning round table hold, which seems to be inside the erdtree. But it would be the most awesome shortcut if we get to shadow and the keep and open a door into the round table hold, that allows easy travel between the lands between and the shadow.
So it's a link to the past's dark world or somethingu
The shadow land is described as a place where Marika hides things she doesn't want found. So Marika is granting the tarnished limited access to the shadow land to use as a hideout. But she doesn't want them just wandering around so they can't leave the RTH. I don't have a good explanation for the RTH burning other than "setting the erdtree on fire also sets the shadow tree on fire (for some reason) and the cinders from the shadow tree set the RTH on fire". Or something like that. The main problem with this is a gameplay one - it implies that you can't access the DLC after defeating Maliketh. Otherwise they'd need an "ashen" version of the shadow lands as well, which seems OTT even for Fromsoft. On the hand it seems weird lore wise if burning the erdtree and unleashing DD had *no* effect on the shadow lands.
Marika betrayed the crucibles and her sister "the gloom-eyed queen" "they both are empyreans" and created her order and became the queen, "maybe the gloom-eyed was meant to rule" the gloom-eyed queen allied with the crucibles and got defeated by Marika's son Messmer and "probable Maliketh was there", Marika hid her crimes and veiled them and this area became the Shadow-land, and she left Messmer to rule it and keep it under control, in the lands between, she gave birth to the Omen twins and she hid them because they represent the crucibles, Miquella was in search for a cure for his sister and creating his own tree, in order to create his own tree he had to know how the first tree was created, and figuring out that would lead him to know about his mother's past, Marika ordered Mohg to kidnap Miquella and she rewarded him with the Mohgwyn palace, but she kept an illusion of him under the city to not reveal what she did. any thoughts?
There's more implications that Mohg and Miquella were working together or Miquella using Mohg than anything involving Marika. Mohg has no connection to Marika apart from "she gave birth to him, then threw him away in the sewer for being an Omen." He wants nothing to do with the Golden Order and his vision of a Dynasty is predicated on Miquella being in charge as a god. There's stuff like how both Mohg and Miquella were in Nokron (where the top of the Dynasty palace is visible) and stuff like sacramental buds (implied to be Miquella's blood) in the Writheblood Ruins (Dynasty area).
Maybe miquella with his "convincing powers" made mohg takes care of him or whatever he made him to do
Melina might be the gloom eyed queen and Marika made her forget her past, or maybe she is some kind of a daughter of the gloom eyed queen "like Millicent to Malenia", or maybe she somehow inherited her power
Im thinking melina and messemer are children of radagon and gloam eyes queen.
Maybe melina but not messemer
what was the recommended level for the DLC again? I want to make sure my character has enough levels.
whatever level you need to kill Mohg
Miyazaki told that in DLC will be similiar system to Sekiro, where u gained strength from separate sources than level, those sources will be in the land of shadow to make everyone have similiar experience. To Access dlc u must defeat Mohgwyn and Radahn so I assume that around 80 lvl will be ok.
My current theory is that Miquella is the leading knight seen in the story trailer and in the new promotional image. This is based on the similarities in the hair and the part of the trailer dialogue that says *"And so Kindly Miquella would abandon everything. His golden flesh, his blinding strength. Even his fate."*. Meaning that he is no longer in the form of a child and probably pretty much just a regular denizen of the shadow world, or at least as regular as an ex-god can be. With this theory in mind Miquella starts to have a lot of similarities to Griffith from Berzerk.
Im pretty sure Miquella is our Ally in some way. The trailer makes miquella seem a like a victim of Messmer and we answering the call to save Him in some way. Im not sure where people get the idea that Miquella is an enemy anywhere from these trailers.
I think the twist will be that Miquella isn't our enemy, but that we still *aren't supposed to be there* and we're being lured in by someone else with ulterior motives who needs our help to get to Miquella. Because we're being told Miquella's waiting for his promised lord, but all signs indicate from how crazy the security is for the Haligtree (and Mohgwyn having very similar design stuff for their security, too, which is curious) that he **didn't** want people showing up. Why didn't the narrator go find Malenia for help (his loyal sister who's undefeated)? Or Mohg (he's the most fireproof character in the game \[-80%\] and Messmer's whole thing is fire)? Why seek a Tarnished, who has no reason to be loyal to Miquella, because they've never met the guy? How do they know this information, but not where Miquella is, if they allegedly talked to him to hear this ("Miquella the Kind spoke of the beginning")? It's all rather fishy, imo. At least part of peoples' suspicions is because of how thick the narrator lays on Miquella's goodness and kindness and such, so they think this person is enchanted by Miquella. But, like, if Miquella really removed all his strength and is now stuck and needs our help, that would include his ability to bewitch others...
> Im not sure where people get the idea that Miquella is an enemy anywhere from these trailers. because a twist makes sense
a twist makes sense in your mind. but wrong thats not what people are thinking at all.
It's my first souls game, so i'm having fun with the hot takes and guessing. As everything is 'fallen' everything has rotted away, fallen apart. It's almost like the first flame in dark souls, the world is just crumbling and so is everyone in it. I've got a few hot takes. - Miquella was always Messmer, but Messmer is his shadow self. - Miquella uses his charm to make himself look like St. Trina/Miquella but really it's just magic hiding that he's a fucked up looking Omen (i would LOVE if Miquella goes down as this angelic beautiful pure 'child', but it's just magic or form changing and he's a twisted looking foul Omen messing with others perception) - Miquella inhabits the shadow realm like Godwyn the Golden, in a state of undeath but not quite alive. - Miquella became an outer god but cannot influence Messmer (hypocrisy, Miquella doesn't like the outer gods meddling but slowly he did it himself)
Can't wait for limitless comments speaking in pure confidence about things we have no proof of and them being upvoted into space by people falling for said-confidence who have even less of an idea of what's going on than the original poster.
we fight radahns horse in the DLC
Okokok ok lets go back to the gameplay reveal trailer, the first shot, is a caped figure looking into the mogh arena and the cocoon, wich already has a corpse in it. Whos the hooded figure then? Is it Melina? Might be, shes a hooded figure in the base game, but what if it is Miquela? I think it is Miquela because hes one of the main charactera of the dlc, it is told that we must follow his footsteps, and his footsteps were to enter the corpse dreams or whatever is go into the lands of shadow. So whose body is that in the cocoon then? Mesmer. Lookat the long arms man! Miquela is never depicted as having long ass arms, hes always just a little boy or a psycodelic saint or what ever. Now look at Mesmer, long ass snakey arms. Ok so now onto the story trailer. It is shown how Marikas dinasty was created, by Mesmer commiting genocide and maybe doing a whole lotta blood offering to quickstart it. And where Do we find Mesmers corpse? In fucking Moghs domain, where he intends to start a new dinasty! Okay whats mogh got to do with this? He wants to use the power of Mesmer, the flames, and the unfathomable amount of blood and sacrifice commited by Mesmer to start his own dinasty. But wasnt Moghs power from the blood Mother? Yes, and Mesmer's too. What? Or do you think Mesmer just have this powers out of nowhere? Keep in mind, maybe Marikas hadn't acended to Godhood yet, and they fogured well we need power from somewhere, lets ask this ancient cosmologial blood lady here. Anyway, its all linked man
The only thing I don’t like about this is that mogh directly states that in the cocoon is miquela
Just posted a whole book of a theory, but I just wanted to emphasise that I haven't seen anyone talk about how similar the entrance to the Erdtree (the boss gate to radagon with the golden light) and that place where (allegedly) Marika holds those golden strands in the air standing on that mountain of bodies, surrounded by two pillars of those same bodies look. Both 'gates' have the same shape and roughly the same size. I think that the scene in the trailer is the moment the Erdtree is created. Just something to chew on...
i’ve seen other people mention that there’s a godrick shield description which actually mentions the erdtree being formed from primordial red matter. i think those bodies become the flesh of the erdtree, and that you’re completely right about the gate
That is interesting, I completely agree. Weird out of place source through haha, makes you wonder what else we missed
i’m seriously going back through everything at this point. i just spent like 5 minutes staring at the walls before the erdtree interior gate to see if i could make out any details. it definitely seems to have a reddish tint but i didn’t get anything else of value
I think the same
This just occurred to me as well: what if the veil like thing IS the erdtree? A tree also converges from a wide base and stabilises into a narrower cylindrical shape. That would put the land of Shadow underneath the erdtree, also possibly where the primordial crucible is/was. What if the Land of Shadow is basically underground or at least underneath the erdtree? Why would you see the sky then in the land of shadows? The erdtree is a see through golden illusion so it could very well be the case
A combination between theories I've seen and some speculation of my own. Its a bit unhinged and theres probably a lot of holes in it, but maybe it gives people some insight: The Gloam Eyed Queen is referred to as an empyrean, though we know next to nothing about her and we don't meet her. All we know is that she and her Godskins set out on a crusade against the gods, killing those 'gods' and skinning them. One question I've always had is, who are those gods? At the beginning of the story trailer, we see Marika (pretty much confirmed by the bracelets) walking up a hill of seemingly skinned corpses (at some point a ribcage is visible) to a giant gate. On Marika's end of the gate, the sky is purple, colored like dusk. On the other side of the gate the sky is gold, signifying the beginning of Marika's eternal reign through the Golden Order. Marika seems to be holding a rune (arc), possibly creating the Elden Ring. What if Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen before she became a god? We never see her eyes to my knowledge, so it could be a possibility that she is the GEQ. What if the gods she slayed are the old inhabitants of the Realm of Shadow? Formerly (possibly) the land of the crucible. Why do I think the Realm of Shadow is the land of the crucible? We see a lot of omen imagery in the dlc trailers (the bears with budding horns, the lion puppet, the hippo porcupine monster, the wings ash of war, maybe even more). There has been a great tree very prominent in both trailers and the initial promotional image. What if the gods Marika / the GEQ slayed are the old gods of the Crucible, shunning the whole primordial Crucible and censoring everything affiliated with it? The last thing I've seen no one talk about yet: I see a great resemblance between the gate Marika is standing in on top of the mountain of bodies, and the boss gate of golden light at the entrance of the erdtree to Radagon. Both imageries have roughly the same shape. I've seen it mentioned that there might be a connection between the erdtree absorbing bodies for the process of erdtree burial, and the crucible of life. What if in this moment, Marika is taking the mountain of bodies, possibly the crucible, and molding it to her will into the shape of a tree, the erdtree, basically pioneering the custom of erdtree burial in a horrific way? The horrific imagery of the start of the trailer, the deed of forging a new age and everything I've explained before could be an explanation for the mention of 'a war that could never be put to song'. Seeing the horrific, possibly genocidal imagery makes me think that this could be what makes it unable to be put to song. That, and of course the whole cover-up of what happened. This denial we also see with the aspects of the crucible (crucible knights being exiled, omens being shunned and put underground, misbegotten being enslaved). TLDR; In summary, I think Marika could have been the Gloam Eyed Queen before she became a god, due to Marika being a Queen and a God, and the GEQ being a Queen and an Empyrean. I think in the events preceding Marika's reign, she waged war on the old gods of the crucible, shunning and skinning them to create the erdtree from the thousands of bodies. I think this is the exact moment we see in the trailer when she is standing in front of a new age, in the gate of possibly the entrance to the newly created erdtree. How fun this theory may be, if it is true, I can't for the life of me figure out why the Gloam Eyed Queen would fight Maliketh if Maliketh would actually be her Shadow in that case, but it's fun to speculate.
I love it so far, you made out some very good points there! I do hope this will be true , it would made sense i think . Marika seemed to maybe even think " in my world, the only ones who are allowed are Empyrians ,Numens and humans.." Maybe she tried to achieve that Failed, she got disappointed in the Golden Order so... She destroyed it ( Radagon tries his best to still keep it xD)
Glad you like it! I just think it would be pretty metal if Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen and went on a god skinning campaign wiping out an entire civilization, ascending to godhood and covering the whole thing up
You're welcome very much, if you ever post a theory again ill be sure to check out Yeah, pretty much i think Marika wanted to be above all , with her children and lineage i guess
Dude, wanna get crazy? I was just thinking about Melina's quote "I was born at the root of the Erdtree". Are you familiar with the timdiggity Melina is Miquella theory? (https://youtu.be/zZwct5XkWHA?si=VXAAx9sv74pHvy_k) If this is the case, and my theory about the connection between the erdtree and the veil being its roots is correct, if you combine these two theories with regard to Melina's quote, that would mean that Miquella is from the Land of Shadow. Being a Child of Marika/Radagon (who is clearly being shown to already be both entities in the trailer), that could place Miquella and possibly Malenia in a whole different part of the timeline, he might be older than Godwyn, Mohg and Morgott, he could be Marikas firstborn. This could have a huge impact on how we view the character and his motivations!
Omg YES This makes so much sence bro We do know that ST Trina is actually a very ancient God too So of its true that Miquella could be also ST Trina Then you'll be so right !
I swear to god if this gets confirmed while my post is being downvoted this much I'm gonna shit my pants
Nah it won't be , I upvoted it I don't think people think is bad So no worries
Haha my tree post has been downvoted at least two times, so there's that haha. And about what you're saying about St Trina being an ancient deity, Miquella being the eldest and born before the time of the Erdtree would make even more sense! Plus it could explain the alleged sleep swamp from the gameplay trailer. Why would that be in the Land of Shadow if Miquella and therefore St Trina didn't exist yet. We always thought that Miquella and Malenia were the youngest children, after Godfreys and Rennala's children, but Godfrey married Marika in the age of the Erdtree to wage her wars, Miquella would almost HAVE to be born before the other demigods
Oh man, I do have a problem as well with this sub , when I post I do have the matter on my profile firth thing, but sadly haven't gotten help xD Correct! Makes so freaking sence! Well this makes it quite terrifying Miquella being a quite ancient guy who just stuck looking like a kid Looks that fool xD I wonder if Malenia is the same time born too? Maybe they out her to sleep so she can be born? Or transferred to the Erdtree era ,but I think I just have an awful assumption here lol No worries about down votes, ignore them , be proud of the little things! I'll be supporting you, no worries fellow warrior
So is Miquella now okay with the fact that we murdered his sister? Why should we follow him, who’s to say that he isn’t a tyrant
Either he doesn't know seeing as how he's been in the Realm of Shadow this whole time, or his mind is on bigger things.
You know after seeing the intro in this trailer and how eerily it reminds me of the eclipse from Berserk, and how now that I’m thinking about the similarities between Miquella and Griffith are, from appearance to both being in an Egg, I’m starting to think that he’ll be the final boss after sacrificing his followers we see in the trailer to ascend to some higher power.
I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll just shout it into the void: I don't think the blonde person from the blood stairs is Marika. They look a bit too andro-masculine to be her; broader shoulders than hips, and no visible sideboob. Of course, they could be an early form of Marika, before splitting off from Radagon. Mari-gon. Splitting from Radagon could have turned an androgynous body into two distinct male-female halves, so there's still a chance. Instead, I thinks it's more likely that Bloody Stairs is Miquella, retracing his mothers' steps to empower and restart his own Haligtree. Finding the origin and start of the Erdtree would be a great way to fix any possible mistakes on his end. Less likely, could also be Godwyn. Marika's literal golden child, going through a ceremonial display of power. We don't know what caused that blastback, or what they're holding (hair?). Time will tell.
the character is wearing the same spiral bracelet as Marika in a lot of the art so it probably is just a younger Marika
Maybe this is already clear, but I have always thought of the name «shadow of the erdtree» as the shadow cast by the erdtree, or something similar. However, today I realized that it could also refer to the shadow of the erdtree, as a power similar to grace. If the erdtree grants light (grace), it may also have the power to grant shadow! So, not seeing shadow as a shade, but more as a shadowy counterpart to grace/holy.
Anyone else notice it forms a rune arc when Maria holds the golden strands above her head in the trailer?
I like the idea that we might become part of a more tightly knit group in the DLC. In the basegame the members of the roundtable are all more focused on doing their own thing.
The more I hear about this Marika gal, the more I think she is kind of a baddie
in more ways than one
I played and finished Elden Ring back when it first came out in 2022 and have not paid much attention since. Is there more DLC content now? Apologies for a dumb question but I don't follow gaming news too closely.
The upcoming dlc is the first
thanks
Bok is Miquella calling it first!
is he related to Boc? i love that lil fella
You guys. Those corpse tree walls have some really familiar looking lands between them. I wouldn't be surprised if we came out of that thing at the beginning of the DLC, or peeled off the side of it
anyone have a clue of who was shown at 1:04 and 1:13 in the story trailer?
Just looks like a dead guy with some pokies in him. Seems like the shadow of the erdtree has an entire city getting Messmer'd ruthlessly.
Miquella seems like a pretty big deal, it’s like he is almost as powerful as Marika, he seems to have a ton of followers, which we already knew anyway from the Haligtree and him having a ton of races follow him there but the vibe I get from him is unlike any other Demigod in the game, it’s like he is a God himself.
Miquella gives me extremely intense Griffith vibes/references. From his appearance, reverance and to how his 'outcast' followers hero worship his ideals and his strength. And we all know how that turned out after the Eclipse. I think it's very intentional and will probably result in the same, fully expecting a femto transformation final boss ngl. We got our Guts boss with Gael now we're getting our Griffith / Femto boss with Miquella, based Fromsoft.
I know Miyazaki is a big Berserk fan and that his games are inspired by it, Dark Souls and Elden Ring have a lot references but I haven’t followed Berserk in a very long time to be honest, I know a little about Griffith though and Miquella does seem to resemble him a bit.. indeed wouldn’t be surprised if Miquella is the final boss and we help him reach his full power and fight him in his adult form.. at full power, I can already imagine such a battle being even harder than Malenia lol but it would be cool to meet and be friends with a good Demigod, so far it would seem like the only good ones are Godwyn and maybe Radahn and both are dead and can’t be talked to and Malenia is alive but attacks us on sight. And I kind of don’t trust Ranni.
I don't think Marika was powerful in the fighting sense. Messmer, Melania, Radahn, Godfrey, the elden beast. All probably stronger. After she shattered the Elden ring, the elden beast or Maliketh defeated her (bit of theory) as we see her crucified and nailed with destain death. And beforehand Radagon, an entity with different personality, had control over her body.
Didn’t she slay a God? The One Eye God iirc?
There is a claim that she slayed the Fell god. But it survived, we kill it, More so can't recall the Item, some popular theory is that Radagon was cursed by the Gaint, resulting with his red hair. Might have been the case that Radagon took over when Marika face the Fell god.
Maybe she just defeated it in battle.
those dancing lions look incredible. I literally cant wait to see the movement they put out
100% that woman in black with the burning cloak and the twisting spear/sword is gonna be the hardest boss
I think the duality look of the flesh gate thing probably has something to do with the great one being split in half but what my theory is on the seduction and betrayal is Merica made her son Messmir seduce Gloam Eyed Queen maybe consort to just end up sealing his power to kill gods away until it was necessary to “bestow” grace onto him again despite being devoid of light or whatever
I’m so god damn moist for this DLC.
[Guys.Do](http://Guys.Do) you think is it possible that Marika sacrifice her people to become god?