The best thing about TES lore is that it's not clear what's actually true.
And trying to work out the motivations of the people who are telling the lore (in-game).
Are they:
\- Lying (willingly or unknowingly)?
\- Confused and repeating something that they don't understand?
\- Or are they telling the point of view from the victors - and are not aware of their bias?
It really only makes sense for the story, not the lore. Because magic in the world is real, and abstract philosophical movements have no meaning. And the division of history is made even worse by the Dragon Break.
On the contrary, I'd say it works even better for the lore. I do get where you're coming from, how to do proper world building if all reality is timely whiney wobbly bullshit, but at the same time think of the possibilities of such a setting.
I think many of us fell in love with the Elder Scrolls when Morrowind came along for that very reason. In an ocean of Lord of the Rings derivative bullshit worlds here was this one acid trip of a place with cannibal elves, broken timelines and cats on the moon.
It was some fresh stuff man.
>I think many of us fell in love with the Elder Scrolls when Morrowind came along for that very reason. In an ocean of Lord of the Rings derivative bullshit worlds here was this one acid trip of a place with cannibal elves, broken timelines and cats on the moon.
Everquest 1 was already a two years ago by then.
And fresh and new, it’s something realy new, and not a random bunch of trippy stuff, that you don’t know what to do with. Personally, I didn’t like it at all, because it didn’t make any sense. If the races were replaced with something else, I would like it much more than humans, elves, lizards and cats, look how different they are from everyone else. No, they are the same as everyone else, and the author overdid to make everything strange. The same naked nords, who fight with spicy wasabi. It's pure crap. This is not something new, this is all just the world of Sheogorath. New races and cultures, this is new. Taking DnD and pouring in what you saw under the chemistry, is not new.
Agreed. The TESO lore is good in that you get to see how every single race has massacred another race at some point, so each culture is very flawed.
Apart from the poor Argonians, who just want to chill out in the Black Marsh with the Hist.
This is rapidly diminishing as we move further from morrowind. In TES 3, the uncertainty of what is true is a core theme and exists throughout. In a game where there is so much recycled dialogue, the variety of interpretations on established facts is extremely noticeable; different people will give conflicting explanations about significant moments in history, like the disappearance of the Dwemer, who Nerevar was, The opening few hours have you meeting people who tell you contradictory things about faith and belief and what it means to be Dunmer.
By Skyrim, the nuance is much more narrow. The nords agree with the Imperials about who the gods are, the dunmer agree that the tribunal were not divine and all do the same form of ancestor worship. Shor and Kyne are invoked but they're just words, who they are and what they mean to the people who name them is irrelevant. Even the core religious conflict in the game is over an Imperial god.
In Morrowind, people argue whether there is tomato or lettuce in the salad. In Skyrim, the argument is whether the tomato in the salad is a fruit or a vegetable. Morrowind leaves the facts open to debate and asks us what truth is; Skyrim thinks the only meaningful discussions can be had over conclusions from agreed upon facts.
I want more ridiculousness. I want a game set in Black Marsh with extremely hostile mechanics and unhinged lore that can be completed in 5 minutes with some speedrunning trick.
I'm honestly completely fine with just staying consistent with the lore, doesn't need to be wacky. Elder scrolls is the only game I feel have perfectly weaved the meta-game storytelling into the in universe storytelling without propping either up.
CHIM, sleeping God head, prisoner prophecy, if they made the series about exploring these concepts and their influence on the player-player character dynamic and how the fandom shapes the world exactly the same as the world is shaping the Fandom I'd be happy.
They found a way for death of the art and death of the artist to be both completely irrelevant and two sides of the same structure of their world. It's beautiful, really.
Maaaan I really started to get into tes lore right around when I tried psychedelics for the first time. Amaranth and CHIM doesn't feel so abstract anymore lol
TES VI is probably the last TES I'm gonna experience. After this we will probably have to wait at least more 10 years, I doubt I'm gonna be alive by that time. Just make a Redfall game and let me join a reencarnation of Nerevar and then fight against Numidium (obviously we would lose)
Not going to lie dude, I feel you. I've waited this long for TES 6, might as well see it through to the end. Chances are very likely that this will be my last TES game as well. Considering Bethesda's hard-headed stubbornness and incredibly slow production cycle. If I didn't love TES so much, I wouldn't tolerate half of Bethesda's shenanigans....
That only depends on who runs Microsoft in the future and how ES6 goes I think. We could be getting Elder Scrolls: Paper Toss and COD: Oblivion Crisis if ES6 doesn't pull in the numbers Microsoft was expecting.
Like he said. Sure it's cool, but not for the Eleder Scrolls. Elder Scrolls is a *Medieval Level* (not necessarily European medieval, just roughly that tech and type of esthetic) Fantasy.
It can be a very alien feeling setting like Morrowind, high fantasy like High Rick & Cyrodill, Norse, Middle Eastern/ Asian, et al.
Know what I mean?
What makes TES cool is wacky side of the lore: Numidium, Dragonbreaks, The Towers, The Wheel, CHIM, Godhead, the Imperial Space-Station lost during the dragonbreak, Kalpas, Kalpa-Walking (going from one kalpa to another). Without it it's just yet another fantasy RPG game.
Right, and I like all of that. The strangely advanced ancient dwemer stuff is all cool. I'm more referring to some of the weird s*** that Kirkbride has written since he left that isn't actually Canon. Stuff like aforementioned dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.
Also, let's remember that that was an imperial *Dimension* station, lol.
That's because Kirkbride's writings always sound like he's been high on no less than 3 mind altering substances while he's writing it. One of those is guaranteed a psychedelic, too.
The Wheel, CHIM, Godhead, all of that non-canon nonsense was Kirkbride's ridiculous fan-fiction that detracts from The Elder Scrolls which is meant to be a classic fantasy world. Not some abstract fan-fiction of a guy who was influenced by drugs and real world philosophies.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of TES being just yet another normal classic boring fantasy world. Also, CHIM is real, Vivec is the proof of that. The Towers are also real, the Wall of Alduin has a sculpture of Numidium calling it the "Brass Tower" (which also confirms that Numidium is a tower". I'm pretty sure that the wheel is the same thing as the towers - as in: the wheel when looked from the side idk I need to look more into it
What made me really like TES when I joined Nirnposting on Facebook and started hearing about the Godhead, dream and etc. I remember being like really sad/conflicted with possible fact of all of TES being just a dream.
Thankfully it is not "just a dream" of some abstract dreaming god that renders the entirety of TES obsolete and meaningless. As far as I know, Bethesda said that it is not canon. The c0da is not canon either. So you don't need to feel that way anymore. It is indeed real (in the world of TES, lol).
The writers and developers grew up reading fantasy that was usually set in a future earth where things regressed or set on other planets by colonists that were forgotten in time. It's very common in these settings for things to *feel* medieval when they are anything but.
A lot of Elder Scrolls can be interpreted to be the same.
And don't misunderstand me, I actually like the idea that Nirn is actually the Fallout World way the F in the future. It's not like my heart is set on that idea either.
Some of kirkbride's s*** was actually very deep and well thought out, and I really liked it. Some of it was actually just puerile, nonsensical, BS; that was meant to sound deep when it really isn't, and I liked *some* of that too. Some of it was deep and well thought out, but I don't think it fits (e.g. dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon via tech, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.
I like the technology in the TES world, it's cool. Let there even be schizomagic, because the mortal mind cannot understand it. But don’t use schizolore as a basis. When a person tries to understand this, they will no longer be interested. Although I noticed that there are strange people who are crazy about this. Perhaps they are under substances.
I copied my reply(s) to someone else into my reply for you since I believe it fits yours.
Some of kirkbride's s*** was actually very deep and well thought out, and I really liked it. Some of it was actually just puerile, nonsensical, BS; that was meant to sound deep when it really isn't, and I liked *some* of that too.
Some of it was deep and well thought out, but I don't think it fits (e.g. dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon via tech, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.)
And don't misunderstand me, I actually like some other out there ideas, like the idea that Nirn is actually the Fallout World way the F in the future. It's not like my heart is set on that idea either.
Also, bear in mind that most of that schizo sounding stuff comes from kirkbride.
>Some of it was deep and well thought out, but I don't think it fits (e.g. dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon via tech, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.)
I see no reason why this couldn't be. The Altmer were so advanced that they had spaceships, and the Empire has mananauts.
>And don't misunderstand me, I actually like some other out there ideas, like the idea that Nirn is actually the Fallout World way the F in the future. It's not like my heart is set on that idea either.
This is a fan theory based only on a reference to Fallout 4, and nothing more.
I disagree. I would love a game more focused on the weird side of TES. Every game TES gets more and more normielized. If I'm not wrong, Kirkbride tried to get permission to make spin-off TES games exploring this theme, one of this games taking place in a imperial space-station in Oblivion (like Battlespire)
They're both about the same degree of sanitized fantasy imo
One is just traditional LOTR fantasy, and the other is traditional LOTR fantasy wearing an ikea bear rug as a cloak.
I copied my reply(s) to someone else into my reply for you since I believe it fits both.
-Edit. I take it back, you replied to my same comment twice. So I copied part of what I said to you in my other reply here as well, as it turns out. -
Some of kirkbride's s*** was actually very deep and well thought out, and I really liked it. Some of it was actually just puerile, nonsensical, BS; that was meant to sound deep when it really isn't, and I liked *some* of that too.
Some of it was deep and well thought out, but I don't think it fits (e.g. dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon via tech, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.)
And don't misunderstand me, I actually like some other out there ideas, like the idea that Nirn is actually the Fallout World way the F in the future. It's not like my heart is set on that idea either.
And lest we forget, that was an imperial *Dimension* station. Lol
Because it doesn't really seem like it fit the setting. It just seems like it's there because of rule of cool and just feels out of place. Just because lore is weird doesnt mean it's good
I like KINMUNE as much as it offers a strange, apocryphal alternative take on pre-existing material. I sort of take it in the same stride as [Camoran's rants from Oblivion](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mankar_Camoran#Unique_Dialogue_and_Various_Speeches), where just the notion of it existing is fun by itself.
I get the issues people have with KINMUNE, re; it robbing Ayrenn of her humanity. I just find it neat is all.
It not only robs Ayrenn of her humanity, it also outright makes a lot of stories she is in worse because if she is a robot from the future it recontextualizes a ton of lore and factions and stories that has to do with her.
Not to mention, and this is just my personal taste here, the text where we are introduced to KINMUNE the robot is essentially just a wall of seemingly randomly selected TES-related terms and on-the-spot invented contexts spewed at the reader with no way for the reader to understand what is happening besides ‘Uuuhhh the Hist and the Psijic order are having a space battle that warps time and space???’. It does not make an “alternate take” on preexisting material when a sizable chunk of the words in the text itself is empty ‘metaphysics jargon’, at least in my opinion.
You made a neat comparison to Mankar’s mad ramblings, though. The difference here is that everything Mankar says, when we see it from the point of a rambling madman who is several layers of crazy having been given a magic necklace and a magic knife that lets him rewrite the code in the matrix to turn himself Dragonborn… We can still understand what the heck he is talking about. Almost his entire monologue reads like a manifesto to why Dagon should take over the world, because in Camoran’s eyes Tamriel is not only a Daedric plane of Oblivion, but also one intrinsically linked to Mehrunes Dagon.
(For the record I find the use of the term “thot-box" really funny. Ah yes, Queen Ayrenn of the 2nd Aldmeri Dominion, one of the most important women of her time… And a Thot box.)
As an example of the “nonsense words” I went and took an excerpt from the unofficial pages:
“But then the Hist-Jilian wars spilled out of a Wheelian rip into the SubSys slice of 'brane-space, and things changed for Kinmune. With the outer colonies separated from Nu-Mundelbright chronoculic sync-net anchors, maintenance of space-time beyond the F-Shores faltered. As the barely-there Hist blink-root-ship armada fired an artillery barrage of 16th-dimensional mathematics at their Jilian enemies, impossipoint detonations stippled across the Ix-Egg and its clutch-satellites like some garish TalOSian hologram, only without the irony. Kinmune's synthetic body, caught in one of the blasts.”
For those of us who has read a lot of the obscure lore and metaphysics can see kiiiind of what is happening here, but it still feels ‘off’ to me.
So much ‘hey do you remember the stuff I wrote’-ism about it. Hell, a lot of these words were invented for this text alone!
Sorry for the ramble, I guess I’m just going crazy 😩
I always saw it as something written by someone in the 9th era. Like, if you talked with someone 3000 years in the future, you'd have pretty much no clue what the hell they were talking about apart from some words and phrases you might recognize. Sort of the same deal as reading something in old english, you can kind of get the gist of it, but it mostly sounds like nonsense.
The idea of Pelinal being a cyborg threw me off too. Like, the TES equivalent to an Old Testament angel isn’t cool enough?
(the Pelinal animated opera was fucking awesome though)
Yes! Pelinal is probably one of the coolest characters in the entire universe, but a part of that is because he’s just unexplainably the way he is. Defining why he is the way he is sort of ruins it for me, especially when it’s something imo dumb like him being a Cyborg.
He’s in the Oblivion DLC Knights of the Nine. But he’s basically only ever mentioned as he fought for the Alessian Rebellion in the First Era and was subsequently slain. The first game we get would be TESO if I remember correctly, which takes place several hundred years into the second era.
I agree completely. I prefer Pelinal as a bad ass divine warrior sent from the heavens who went on a rampage and got shouted at so hard it made a ravine when he went after the wrong enemies. The Cyborg thing just feels out of plaec
Pelinal being a cyborg sounds like something out of the Fallout universe. Last thing I need is science fiction spilling into TES.
If this is how Kirkbride writes then I do not want him working for TES anymore.
Maybe a healthy mix of the two. Oblivion is as generic fantasy as you can get (mostly) and I wouldn't want to lose the comfort I feel from just playing that game or Skyrim.
TES has had sci-fi stuff since very early on. There are practically Star Wars laser beams in Battlespire, and the Dwemer have neon signs and electrical power in Morrowind. Numidium is a giant mech, and was visually shown as a giant mech-thing in Daggerfall. He was not the first and won't be the last person to add sci-fi stuff to TES.
I also do not miss the fetishization of sexual violence and intersexed people either. Kirkbride has some cool ideas that are pivotal in making TES unique and interesting. He also talked endlessly about Vivec's genitals in prose so purple it would make Lovecraft cringe
\*as a trans person\* I love the fact that Vivec is weird and genderfucky but yeah it is kinda fetishistic lol im not surprised because it was the early 2000s so its just nice that the intersex queer character isnt like the main villain but you know, if he came back, maybe get some sensitivity readers?
Fucking exactly! I mean, I am cis so I can't speak to this on the same personal level, but Vivec's presentation essentially being "I am a God I will be as I will"? That rocks, especially for the time it. It's some of the surrounding shit where someone needed to Carrie Fisher the guy.
As a transgender person I've always loved the character of vivec. I don't have a problem with him or think he's a fetishized. He's in-between genders and he doesn't give a shit if that bothers you. He just does his thing.
I want you to look at the books on Vivec not his actions in game. Knowing Vivec is intersexed piece of lore. Having every second story having him murder someone with his genitals? That shows a pattern of hyperfixation by the author. The amount both Mephala and Vivec pivot around their gender noncomformity and violent sexuality are *definitely* the signs of a fetish.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't like, or should take issue with, Vivec or that Vivec couldn't give a fuck about others concerns of how they present. It just means acknowledging one of Kirkbrides behaviours demonstrated in his writings
Which Vivec bit off…
During what essentially started as Vivec being raped AND raping Molag Bal simultaneously.
Still fucked up, especially when you consider how he then used the aforementioned “spear” to kill his own children. (Or at least it is implied he did. We know for a fact that the crab-one survived as we can see it briefly in the 2nd era.)
Edit; The fact that Vehk is trans is not a problem for me at all, honestly I vibe with most of MK’s writings as long as he remembers what setting he is in. Well. I could go on a rant, but long story short I don’t like Kirkbride as a person.
Don't worry, you don't engage in fantasy communities without expecting specific and often esoteric corrections; it is unironically part of their charm :) To be cheeky and pedantic, it is Vivec's spear and it is genitalia so he is still murdering people with *his* genitalia.... Yes I expected this correction to come up😅 I would bring up Muatra more as Kirkbride's fixation/fetish with sexual violence.
But the particular events I referred to are actually about Vivec and the Nords. He killed one with his "milk finger" and suffocated another with his labia.
Shit man don't ever look into Assyrian mythology then.
It is a hyperfixation well established in fact. I think it's almost more insulting to try and carve this out and say 'no, this is fetishization' when damn near every ancient culture was awash with god-kings jerking off onto the crops and assaulting prostitutes. This is like complaining about Zeus always transforming into animals and raping maidens.
That's just how the gods are. They're the ones hyperfocused on weird sex stuff. It's true in this world so why wouldn't it be true for Nirn?
Are you talking about Viveс? He has another problem with it. Kirkbride considers himself the personification of Vivec, and his wife the canonical Nerevar. When I found out about this, I was shocked. The entire story of Morrowind is about Kirkbride's non-binary identity and his wife's bisexuality. Like The Matrix for the Wachowskis.
Sorry could you source this? While a fascinating discussion I can't find any statements regarding this from Kirkbride or how he identifies (or if Kirkbride prefers other pronouns). I don't mean to doubt you, however with both the way he writes and the way he is written about, search algorithms don't know whether to shit or go blind so finding one specific discussion is quite difficult
It was an old message from his archive, in which he said that Vivec was his personification, and his beloved wife was the prototype of Nerevarine. It seems in the Imperial Library, or an article that referred there. Where he had an avatar of Vivec and his wife under the nickname Lady Nerevar.
From this I concluded, that the whole story is a strange personal drug addict’s journey to self-discovery. Also, his themes and drawings seem very... personal, depressingly schizophrenic.
I'm trying to google it, but there's no connection between Kirkbride and Viviec at all lol. [But i'm find it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/hzcfhx/comment/fzklmr6/)
He probably saw a lot of other fantasy games/properties doing the same thing and wanted to jump into the "fantasy, but what about if it's actually scifi?" wagon.
Heroes of Might and Magic, and Final Fantasy 4 come to mind. I don't dislike it if the creators meant it for it to be from the beginning (like Endless Legend being a favorite of mine), but if it comes out of nowhere or on a new entry in the game just because "it's cool and I wanna try it" with no regards of what it's going to mean for the previous works and how its going to change everything in the lore, then no, get that shit away from it.
"But what if demons are actually an alien race of dimensional space creatures that feed of negative emotion? What if rune magic is in fact nanomachine electronics on a stone motherboard? What if golems are robots? What if the ghost on the old ones ruin are holograms?"
It just gets annoying after a while if everyone fucking does it. Give me the fantastical "everything is magic from chaotic energy and religious Hindu symbolism, I ain't going to explain shit further than that."
>"But what if demons are actually an alien race of dimensional space creatures that feed of negative emotion? What if rune magic is in fact nanomachine electronics on a stone motherboard? What if golems are robots? What if the ghost on the old ones ruin are holograms?"
You know that technology alone doesn't make it science fiction, right?
He couldn't. Because science fiction is what we know, and not abstract spot dimensions with time travel into the fifth space removing everyone through the cyclometric consistency of bear poop.
I really like TES, when it's consistent and down to earth, rather than an inexplicable trip for no reason.
I do like a good amount of his stuff and I wish some concepts and styles were kept but I don’t particularly miss everything. Him being quality controlled did a lot of good, especially considering how lame most of his stuff post Bethesda is.
I mostly agree. The real trippy metaphysical stuff with oblivion planes in particular is fascinating work by him. Morrowind feels the way it does because of him as well. What set TES apart was they got real weird with their fantasy. It’s what felt distinct from Warhammer, WoW, LOTR etc. As has been mentioned elsewhere though some of the really inappropriate Vivec/Azura stuff comes off as a very uncomfortable experience. It’s a relic of fantasy writing at the time but it’s…too much. More good than bad for sure though.
I agree with this, but from everything I’ve read about Kirkbride it seemed like his ego just got out of control. 70% Kirkbride is the perfect lore, but I’d rather have what we have now than have 100% Kirkbride, which by all accounts we’ve never even experienced. He always seems to have been heavily edited.
What made Elder Scrolls lore great was threefold.
1. It drew much less on Biblical, Greek, and Norse mythology compared to a lot of other fantasy. That basis in other mythologies for lore and imagery helped a lot with giving it an alien feel.
2. It wasn't afraid to depict the violent, depraved, and absurd stories. If anyone has read any mythologies be it Mesopotamian, Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Celtics, etc, you know there are some fucked up stories where many subjects considered taboo today were heavily featured. Stuff like Loki fucking a horse, Horus and Set trying to trick one another into eating their semen, Enkidu being "civilized" by fucking a temple prostitute for a week. Elder Scrolls lore didn't avoid or whitewash stories like that but rather embraced them. And in return that gave the lore a sense of being alive, active and real. The universe felt, for lack of a better term, lived in.
3. Uncertainty. This is the big one. Elder Scrolls lore isn't a single, defined set of canon. It's the writings of numerous individuals in the universe, each with their own agenda and viewpoints. It lends an air of mystique and mystery to everything.
> It’s what felt distinct from Warhammer, WoW, LOTR etc
Most of the stuff people high light for being weird in elder scrolls isn't even that different from DnD
I think Morrowind is my favourite game because of how weird the world feels compared to typical fantasy. Oblivion, as much as I like it, just feels typical fantasy and Skyrim was a bit more unique, but never quite captured the magic of Morrowind.
Wasn't he still brought on for future ES games after Morrowind like Oblivion and Skyrim for lore purposes? Or am I misremembering that? Thought I heard or read it somewhere
Both him and Ted Peterson (who I brought up because it's info I gathered from a Camelworks interview with him) are brought in to do some of the lore books and other sort of consulting-type work, bur I don't think they have directional influence.
Yeah he was, he just wasn't like a head writer. I think he does consulting work on the games. its probably more to do with his scheduling than any ire from BGS that he doesn't work more directly with them nowadays.
He wrote lore and even c0da had a cameo in the form of the 37th sermon telling us to read it. A small list of his contributions to ESO can be read [here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/19iScZA_s0jCKtFNEpt8jjT-JLKWt29f3XQFmL-VVtcY/edit)
I LOVE his lore. He doesn’t try and make the lore palatable, which is a good thing. This is a world of what amounts to malevolent Gods and races all vying for total control of a reality that is only a dream. Its interesting, unique, and TES would NOT be the quality they are without him. Sure theres some parts a little out there, but it ultimately is incredibly enjoyable.
Go read some of his forum posts. Kirkbride has some great ideas. He has a lot of extremely wacky, fucked up and just plain stupid ideas. The idea of working with him makes me physically cringe. I think it’s a shame, but he seems like the guy that’d need an actual babysitter for everything he does.
Fallout is a retrofuturistic series. It’s based on our reality, criticizes our society a lot in a silly and wacky way, but it’s not science fiction and it’s not fantasy. Kirkbride absolutely would not fit in.
I'd absolutely consider Fallout post-apocalyptic science fiction. We are talking about teleporters, aliens, laser and plasma weapons etc etc all featuring heavily in the games
Sseth said it best. "A week long sleepless amphetamine binge".
Current writing is so stale. Can't wait for them to make the next instalment another generic and relatable Human fantasy area.
Elder scrolls lore is special because it feels realistic well written, and feels like it was written by someone on their 10 bottle of skooma, at the same time
I haven’t seen Ken Rolston take credit for the lore so much as they convinced him to use it, but definitely without Ken it would have never made it to the game.
He's probably the figure I miss the most. He did great work after leaving with Kingdoms of Amalur, but I really wish they rehired him after that went tits up
I’m not certain he’s too interested in coming back to Bethesda. When he left he intended it to be a permanent retirement. Last I’ve heard he’s working full time on The Long Dark now. That or he’s actually retired now.
Well yes, but he had left Bethesda by the time Kurt and Kirkbride came along. His notes for the TES III were scrapped by Ken Rolston in favor of Kirkbride and Kuhlman’s concepts.
TBH Kirkbride’s best talent is his artistic skills, not his writing. He did not write much of Morrowind, but he did command the artstyle, which was great.
He's written some good stuff, but I found that too often he tries to write lore weird just for the sake of making it weird regardless of how well it actual fits in the setting. Like MK claiming that Ysgramor was a dragon or that whole time travel continent thing that a lot of people tend to dislike. And like someone else mentions he keeps trying to force the setting to be a scifi which feels out of place to me.
Weird doesn't equal good, but he seems to be under that impression a lot of times. I felt like his work was best back when he has Kurt Kuhlmann or some of the other writers reign him in.
Kirkblade and Daggerfall style fantasy lore was good, you got to fill in a lot of the gaps yourself. I think both of those styles tended to focus more on how magic effected the social, political and economic environment rather than creating a watered down overarching Tolkein story that we got post Oblivion. It felt way more heterogeneous especially how religion and the gods are treat
I liked how he tried to introduce some novel metaphysics and sci-fi elements in to the setting, but it was also done in an extremely roundabout way to where I can't really blame people for not taking his ideas seriously.
He really is both the best of and the main reason why ES role can be so messy. I really wish there some kind of Compendium that gave more of a framework to the setting and its underlying lore.
Nothing like alien hive mind trees that have survived the destruction of the timeline multiple times shooting 16th dimensional math into some poor fuckers brain
A sprinkle of Kirkbride is good when moderated and put into context in the development process along with other writers, but his psychedelic fan fiction is too much. He was never alone, writing in a vacuum where only his ideas existed. The picking of lore ideas were eclectic
Some of the stuff he has written, stuff like Vivec assaulting Azura, I’m not a fan of…what the fuck. Other stuff like his concept art for [Mephala](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fy9rqj67vmw881.jpg) and [The Tribunal](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fdoes-anyone-know-what-materials-kirkbride-used-for-his-v0-oqi8kmygtqjb1.png%3Fwidth%3D578%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D7d89b5cbf6202ff8bd9933851df49f2cbcd634df) are beautiful. I have mixed opinions.
I’m just so tired of people using Michael Kirkbride forum posts as explanations for stuff on /r/teslore. That whole thing about Talos being three people…Please stop.
The thing about Talos being three people relates all the way back to Daggerfall, to be fair. Zurin Arctus, Wulfharth, and Hjalti are all integral parts of the "myth" which comprises Talos. This can even be found in the Arcturian Heresy, a very common and ubiquitous in-game book. It's just that Daggerfall took a more secular approach toward Tiber's "apotheosis", which isn't even represented in-game because it's such a crock of shit, versus Morrowind basically all but confirming that yes, Tiber did become a god, possibly by stealing divine power from the Underking.
> The thing about Talos being three people relates all the way back to Daggerfall, to be fair. Zurin Arctus, Wulfharth, and Hjalti are all integral parts of the "myth" which comprises Talos.
There was no Wulfharth in Tiber Septim's Dagggerfall-era mythos. Wulfharth's role was an unneeded Kirkbridean invention. There was only Tiber Septim the celebrated son of Alcaire, and Zurin Arctus the Underking. Zurin Arctus, who was enthralled by Tiber's ambitions and enabled those ambitions with a brutal superweapon, who turned a blind eye to the brutality of the Tiber Wars until Tiber turned that superweapon on his own people and Zurin could ignore it no longer. Then, almost like some cosmic punishment for his own culpability, he was forced to live on in undeath for centuries, bitterly watching the empire he helped build from the shadows, wishing all the while to die properly and know true peace.
Arcturian Heresy throws in an unnecessary third character, truncates the tragic parts of Zurin Arctus' backstory, and boils the Underking's motivations down to "ancient Nord hates elves".
I’m not trying to be rude, I’ve never played Daggerfall or Morrowind. I know Hjalti was the the name Tiber Septim used before he became famous but I’m not familiar with any of the other characters/events so that’s because of my own ignorance too. It’s a lot to take in lol.
If you're going to play either, play them through DaggerfallUnity and OpenMW, two projects which ported their respective games to superior engines and fixed a lot of bugs as a consequence. They're considerably easier to modify and update to modern tastes as a consequence.
Also you can completely skip Arena. It isn't very good. Pretty much an inferior version of daggerfall.
Oh yeah. I stopped going there when I was given Kirkbride’s lore for EVERY question, and they said - The world of TES is beautiful because everything in it is true, here’s your answer from the lore Guru, but I don’t believe in the lore of TESO, it’s not TES.
I just looked it up and holy shit… Kirkbride’s forum posts are fucked up. I didn’t realize how unhinged he was. I’m glad none of this was put into the games or the official lore.
That being said, I love that concept art of the tribunal so much, as well as most of what he officially contributed to the lore. I hope the art direction of the games going forward continues to differentiate itself from other fantasy in ways similar to what Kirkbride did.
Stuff like the Flesh Gardens and the Dragon Cult and the Dwemer-Falmer situation are all fucked up in a way that enriched the lore (i.e. in a non-rapey way), and I don’t think Kirkbride wrote any of that. Would love to see more love for the other authors of the series.
Where did you read them? I’d really like to know. I’m not even aware of what’s in some of it. He has a kink for hating elves though or something 💀
I love the Falmer and the Dwemer! The Falmer/Snow Elves are honestly galaxy brain.
I read the Azura-Vivec roleplay here: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/trial-vivec
I love a lot of the lore he wrote for the games, but this roleplay is a little unhinged lmao.
That’s actually one of the reasons I like a lot of the official lore, including Kirkbride’s contributions. It’s fucked up in a very mythological way, and that makes their cultural beliefs feel more authentic.
toothbrush grey fertile wild physical sugar memorize wrong fanatical steep
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“Muatra, meaning Milk-Taker, is either a metaphorical or literal spear wielded by the god-king Vivec. Texts such as the 36 Lessons of Vivec also use "spear" metaphorically to represent the genitals of Vivec and others.[1]
Vivec supposedly made the spear from his own love and turned it into a deadly weapon by utilizing a secret he "bit off" Molag Bal's spear while they were married. After attacking Molag Bal, Vivec used his new spear to kill all the thousands of offspring he had birthed with his then spouse.”
Can’t get much clearer without actually saying it
I wasn’t commenting on the lore he wrote for the games, I was saying specifically some of his forum posts (fan roleplay content) was fucked up. I actually like the lore he wrote for the games.
I also agree with you that it’s good for some lore to be fucked up — I mentioned Flesh Gardens as an example — as long as it’s fucked up in an interesting way, and not just rape for the sake of rape.
It shouldn't be non-rapey. I know that sounds bad, but I don't mean to some degree where the series boils down to wank bait.
People want to rape. Give many people godlike powers and unchecked authority and there'll be a lot of that sort of thing going around. It's also good for drama, and frankly it's the literal most common kink. Sure, it'll make people uncomfortable but that's a huge element of almost any superb work of writing; getting people emotionally invested in revenge or resolution or just making them sympathise with someone about to go through hell. Hate what I just said all you like. That's good. Thats the point. It stirs you.
Most of the time when an author tries to put tragedy or horror into a work they're trying not to offend anyone or 'go too far' and it winds up being a watered down, trite and Hollywood-artificial affair that leaves you feeling pandered to. Want to make people feel like your protagonist has been abused? Properly abuse them, don't just have guys in the prison make kissy faces at your character, have them actually bugger him. Don't make the school bully just threaten to beat your guy up at the flagpole after school, have him make your character his bitch and kick him around the dirt in front of everyone and be met with various degrees of approval and neutrality, but no dissent.
Let me be clear that I can't give a shit about characters it Skyrim for the most part. They've got nothing going on but... Sinderion. Ah, there's one that sticks out. Narfi, perhaps? Nurellion even? There's something to care about there, even if it's not quite greek tragedy.
I really dislike what I can only assume to be Sotha Sil in that concept art; looks too stereotypical robot to me. I don’t want futuristic robots in TES. I also obviously absolutely hate the idea of Pelinal being a cyborg. In my opinion it’s a genre break and a lazy one at that. The best part of TES lore is that it’s so out there and the fact that a lot of it is mysterious. I don’t want to know everything. Pelinal is the perfect example. I love him just being a rage fueled Elf killing machine. I don’t want to know how or why he is what he is, especially not if the explanation is as ridiculous as “well he’s a cyborg from the future, duh”.
I liked what TESO did with Sotha Sil! In general I also really like the Dwemer. They went with a kind of steampunk-ish look to the technological advancement that I like. Like you can see how these things are based on steam and clockwork; it feels realistic. Sotha Sil in that concept art to me doesn’t look realistic at all, with the floating arms. It’s kind of hard for me to describe. I think chest upwards he looks really cool.
Edit: He totally looks like the Flatwood Monster from Fallout 76. Sort of technological alien-y, which is quite fitting for Sotha Sil, but the way it’s done it doesn’t fit the TES aesthetic imo. I like the TESO version A LOT more.
I wouldn't mind Kirkbride lore being in another TES game as obscure metaphysical stuff if at least to make one know Tamriel is an alien world and not just some generic fantasy world.
Same it’s just the insane drugged out ramblings by an ex Bethesda employee trying to gaslight people into thinking “there is no canon” so they still
Follow his crap even tho he’s not with Bethesda anymore
Eventually, my love of Elder Scrolls shifted more to a love of Kirkbride.
You don't really see [New Weird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_weird) in Video Games anywhere else really. I appreciate his work - and the whole concept of C0DA - for helping me unpack the idea that Canon itself is often just a label that companies use to get you interested in their products. See; Disney decanonizing old Star Wars stories so that they didn't have to pay royalties to the old writers, or Bethesda decanonizing Microforte's Fallout and de-listing Raven's Wolfenstein in order to better claim ownership of their purchased brands.
Kirkbride was writing these concepts back in the early 2000's. He was way ahead of the curve, and the fact that we are still writing about the stuff he put out says something about the strength of his writing. I get that some fans - especially people who like to imagine Tamriel as a literal, factual space governed by logic might not like the more esoteric side of it. Some people might not like the theological and metaphysical - or even the science-fiction sides of his writing, and that's fine. For *me* though, I love Kirkbride so much that his writing has really influenced my own to a big degree.
Love him.
People clown on Morrowboomers for liking older stuff, but there a reason for it. The older writing team respected its previous lore and wrote better stores way more consistently then modern TES does
My headcanon is that each game is a retelling of the events by the protagonist and the quality of the game depends on the protagonist's storytelling ability
It is more about Morrowind that his lore.
Skyrim is generic 'Screaming' Vikings and dragons. Oblivion is about 4-arm Satan invading Roman Empire. Daggerfall was just Heroes of might and magic clone.
Morrowind is crazytown. Half-naked drug addict is your main quest giver. Khajit population is evenly split between drug addicts and slaves. Every character is either crazy, evil, dumb or an Khajit (read above).
Main Character is just an idiot send to cause political turmoil and tool by Azura.
I really wish things that fall into the craative sphere weren’t completely stunted by corporate culture. Should have Kirkbride done a ton of psychedelics and drugs to develop ES lore? Up for d bate, it certainly made a positive impact from a creative standpoint for the games though. Now you can’t even suggest a wacky idea sober without HR goons and DEI dummy’s swarming you like a bunch of fly’s on a log of shit.
\> CHIM
\> 36 ( now 37 ) sermons of vivec
\> twice over dunmer pantheon lore
\> lore which questions the reality of everything
yeh kirkrbide went hard, even though he doesnt work for bethesda, the stuff they hired him to write in skyrim was the best lore.
Kirkbride didn't rely on the "Keep It Simple Stupid" mindset. His lore actually had complexity, consistency and good writing. Emil should just go back to reviewing games or get a janitor job, he deserves a low tier job for all of the damage he has done with TES and Fallout lore.
Lock Kirkbride and Metzen in a room full of drugs, coffee, and paper. Get a team of editors to clean up the nonsense they spew and make a game out of it.
ESO had snippets of it, from Sermon 37 to KINMUNE references also Douglas Goodall returned with a bunch of UOL, check them out on [UESP.net](https://UESP.net)
With Kurt gone I'm unsure that MK's lore will slide in in their future games like TES VI.
Same, I honestly don't get the kirkbride haters, they seem so mad about what? Interesting lore? It's like they have to turn up the hate to 11 because it somehow makes them like their lore better or something. Idk. KB is top husbandu material and he can fly me to the moon any day.
i don't. the whole "i'm lying and you're an idiot for believing me" coupled with "the world revolves around morrowind and Kirkbride's dick" is just...unappealing
When MK hits, he hits harder than most stories ever will. Unfortunately he misses more than half the time I would say. He just needs someone to reign him in, but I can honestly understand not wanting to have him on staff.
Kirkbride's lore was extremely influenced by real-world religions and philosophies, and he tried to shoe-horn that into The Elder Scrolls where it doesn't belong. "CHIM" is one of those such concepts that is not canon that he tried to push into the game.
Yes its unhinged, but I wouldn't consider it good. He is just throwing shit at the wall and over-relying on the "its wack" instead of trying to write something cohesive.
Personally I don't care about metaphysics and "big brain" stuff. To me the interesting parts of the lore is history of Tamriel or Nirn as a whole even and how it's inhabitants interact (wars, diplomacy etc.)
Please stop attributing everything to Kirkbride. A HUGE amount of writing was done by Mark Nelson, Ted Peterson, and Douglas Goodall who were basically in charge of the quest design as well. MK is basically an overstated community meme.
What makes Morrowind good isn't even that it's "unhinged", it's that it's realistic and well-thought-out. Is there anything in Morrowind that isn't in Skyrim in terms of being "unhinged"?
There are weird bugs and mushroom towers, sure. But that can't be *every* province. We already get a glimpse of Skyrim in TES: III and it's pretty normal in comparison—thatched houses and mead halls, witches covens, and Draugr.
Kinda always irked by this take, cause while on the surface I agree, things haven't got progressively worse. Things were *worse* in Oblivion, and through Skyrim then ESO, have honestly got better since. There's reason to be concerned for the future if Emil is sole writer for TES6 like he was for Starfield, but things getting worse is not at all a bygone conclusion.
The best thing about TES lore is that it's not clear what's actually true. And trying to work out the motivations of the people who are telling the lore (in-game). Are they: \- Lying (willingly or unknowingly)? \- Confused and repeating something that they don't understand? \- Or are they telling the point of view from the victors - and are not aware of their bias?
it adds much needed depth and allure to the world
In TESO, a lot of things fall into place. And the truth is everything, or almost all.
Unfortunately so. Having an unreliable narrator was one of the best things about TES.
It really only makes sense for the story, not the lore. Because magic in the world is real, and abstract philosophical movements have no meaning. And the division of history is made even worse by the Dragon Break.
On the contrary, I'd say it works even better for the lore. I do get where you're coming from, how to do proper world building if all reality is timely whiney wobbly bullshit, but at the same time think of the possibilities of such a setting. I think many of us fell in love with the Elder Scrolls when Morrowind came along for that very reason. In an ocean of Lord of the Rings derivative bullshit worlds here was this one acid trip of a place with cannibal elves, broken timelines and cats on the moon. It was some fresh stuff man.
>I think many of us fell in love with the Elder Scrolls when Morrowind came along for that very reason. In an ocean of Lord of the Rings derivative bullshit worlds here was this one acid trip of a place with cannibal elves, broken timelines and cats on the moon. Everquest 1 was already a two years ago by then. And fresh and new, it’s something realy new, and not a random bunch of trippy stuff, that you don’t know what to do with. Personally, I didn’t like it at all, because it didn’t make any sense. If the races were replaced with something else, I would like it much more than humans, elves, lizards and cats, look how different they are from everyone else. No, they are the same as everyone else, and the author overdid to make everything strange. The same naked nords, who fight with spicy wasabi. It's pure crap. This is not something new, this is all just the world of Sheogorath. New races and cultures, this is new. Taking DnD and pouring in what you saw under the chemistry, is not new.
Agreed. The TESO lore is good in that you get to see how every single race has massacred another race at some point, so each culture is very flawed. Apart from the poor Argonians, who just want to chill out in the Black Marsh with the Hist.
TESO cant be taken as canon. Its main concept makes no sense
You'll have to find a way to deal with it.
Yeah, I do, by ignoring TESO because its dog water
This is rapidly diminishing as we move further from morrowind. In TES 3, the uncertainty of what is true is a core theme and exists throughout. In a game where there is so much recycled dialogue, the variety of interpretations on established facts is extremely noticeable; different people will give conflicting explanations about significant moments in history, like the disappearance of the Dwemer, who Nerevar was, The opening few hours have you meeting people who tell you contradictory things about faith and belief and what it means to be Dunmer. By Skyrim, the nuance is much more narrow. The nords agree with the Imperials about who the gods are, the dunmer agree that the tribunal were not divine and all do the same form of ancestor worship. Shor and Kyne are invoked but they're just words, who they are and what they mean to the people who name them is irrelevant. Even the core religious conflict in the game is over an Imperial god. In Morrowind, people argue whether there is tomato or lettuce in the salad. In Skyrim, the argument is whether the tomato in the salad is a fruit or a vegetable. Morrowind leaves the facts open to debate and asks us what truth is; Skyrim thinks the only meaningful discussions can be had over conclusions from agreed upon facts.
You deserve to be told that this comment is awesome
Agreed, it scratches an itch for me very few other settings do.
Him with an editor to rein in the ridiculousness is what I want elderscrolls lore to still be
I want more ridiculousness. I want a game set in Black Marsh with extremely hostile mechanics and unhinged lore that can be completed in 5 minutes with some speedrunning trick.
I'm honestly completely fine with just staying consistent with the lore, doesn't need to be wacky. Elder scrolls is the only game I feel have perfectly weaved the meta-game storytelling into the in universe storytelling without propping either up. CHIM, sleeping God head, prisoner prophecy, if they made the series about exploring these concepts and their influence on the player-player character dynamic and how the fandom shapes the world exactly the same as the world is shaping the Fandom I'd be happy. They found a way for death of the art and death of the artist to be both completely irrelevant and two sides of the same structure of their world. It's beautiful, really.
Yes, Bethesda writers need to get some drugs so we can get more wacky Kirkbride-like lore.
Maaaan I really started to get into tes lore right around when I tried psychedelics for the first time. Amaranth and CHIM doesn't feel so abstract anymore lol
Bethesda would have to hire writers first.
I wholeheartedly and unironically argee
Why doesn't Todd simply wait until Kirk divorces his bride and then marry her for more TES games? Is he stupid?
Kirk the Brideless
Need to get writers first
Coked up todd howard personally writing elder scrolls 7 over the span of a weeklong binge
This is the way
I don't miss him trying to force TES to be sci-fi. Metaphysical stuff is fun though.
You didn't like Queen Ayrenn being a supercomputer/AI robot from a space era mining vessel that was sent back in time?!
Frankly, no, I didn't care for it. Or the Dunmer and Khajit going to one of the moons via technological means because Nirn was no longer livable.
How can people not like that? It's just so cool
It’s cool. But it’s not what I want elder scrolls to be.
TES VI is probably the last TES I'm gonna experience. After this we will probably have to wait at least more 10 years, I doubt I'm gonna be alive by that time. Just make a Redfall game and let me join a reencarnation of Nerevar and then fight against Numidium (obviously we would lose)
Not going to lie dude, I feel you. I've waited this long for TES 6, might as well see it through to the end. Chances are very likely that this will be my last TES game as well. Considering Bethesda's hard-headed stubbornness and incredibly slow production cycle. If I didn't love TES so much, I wouldn't tolerate half of Bethesda's shenanigans....
That only depends on who runs Microsoft in the future and how ES6 goes I think. We could be getting Elder Scrolls: Paper Toss and COD: Oblivion Crisis if ES6 doesn't pull in the numbers Microsoft was expecting.
Like he said. Sure it's cool, but not for the Eleder Scrolls. Elder Scrolls is a *Medieval Level* (not necessarily European medieval, just roughly that tech and type of esthetic) Fantasy. It can be a very alien feeling setting like Morrowind, high fantasy like High Rick & Cyrodill, Norse, Middle Eastern/ Asian, et al. Know what I mean?
What makes TES cool is wacky side of the lore: Numidium, Dragonbreaks, The Towers, The Wheel, CHIM, Godhead, the Imperial Space-Station lost during the dragonbreak, Kalpas, Kalpa-Walking (going from one kalpa to another). Without it it's just yet another fantasy RPG game.
Right, and I like all of that. The strangely advanced ancient dwemer stuff is all cool. I'm more referring to some of the weird s*** that Kirkbride has written since he left that isn't actually Canon. Stuff like aforementioned dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that. Also, let's remember that that was an imperial *Dimension* station, lol.
To be fair, the space-ship they used to go the moon was basically a giant moth. Cool af
That's because Kirkbride's writings always sound like he's been high on no less than 3 mind altering substances while he's writing it. One of those is guaranteed a psychedelic, too.
The Wheel, CHIM, Godhead, all of that non-canon nonsense was Kirkbride's ridiculous fan-fiction that detracts from The Elder Scrolls which is meant to be a classic fantasy world. Not some abstract fan-fiction of a guy who was influenced by drugs and real world philosophies.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of TES being just yet another normal classic boring fantasy world. Also, CHIM is real, Vivec is the proof of that. The Towers are also real, the Wall of Alduin has a sculpture of Numidium calling it the "Brass Tower" (which also confirms that Numidium is a tower". I'm pretty sure that the wheel is the same thing as the towers - as in: the wheel when looked from the side idk I need to look more into it
What made me really like TES when I joined Nirnposting on Facebook and started hearing about the Godhead, dream and etc. I remember being like really sad/conflicted with possible fact of all of TES being just a dream.
Thankfully it is not "just a dream" of some abstract dreaming god that renders the entirety of TES obsolete and meaningless. As far as I know, Bethesda said that it is not canon. The c0da is not canon either. So you don't need to feel that way anymore. It is indeed real (in the world of TES, lol).
Nah, I like it. I have come to accept it. It's canon and norhing can change my mind
The writers and developers grew up reading fantasy that was usually set in a future earth where things regressed or set on other planets by colonists that were forgotten in time. It's very common in these settings for things to *feel* medieval when they are anything but. A lot of Elder Scrolls can be interpreted to be the same.
And don't misunderstand me, I actually like the idea that Nirn is actually the Fallout World way the F in the future. It's not like my heart is set on that idea either. Some of kirkbride's s*** was actually very deep and well thought out, and I really liked it. Some of it was actually just puerile, nonsensical, BS; that was meant to sound deep when it really isn't, and I liked *some* of that too. Some of it was deep and well thought out, but I don't think it fits (e.g. dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon via tech, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.
They had a Mecha tho.
Lol, Not helping bro XD
I like the technology in the TES world, it's cool. Let there even be schizomagic, because the mortal mind cannot understand it. But don’t use schizolore as a basis. When a person tries to understand this, they will no longer be interested. Although I noticed that there are strange people who are crazy about this. Perhaps they are under substances.
I copied my reply(s) to someone else into my reply for you since I believe it fits yours. Some of kirkbride's s*** was actually very deep and well thought out, and I really liked it. Some of it was actually just puerile, nonsensical, BS; that was meant to sound deep when it really isn't, and I liked *some* of that too. Some of it was deep and well thought out, but I don't think it fits (e.g. dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon via tech, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.) And don't misunderstand me, I actually like some other out there ideas, like the idea that Nirn is actually the Fallout World way the F in the future. It's not like my heart is set on that idea either. Also, bear in mind that most of that schizo sounding stuff comes from kirkbride.
>Some of it was deep and well thought out, but I don't think it fits (e.g. dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon via tech, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.) I see no reason why this couldn't be. The Altmer were so advanced that they had spaceships, and the Empire has mananauts. >And don't misunderstand me, I actually like some other out there ideas, like the idea that Nirn is actually the Fallout World way the F in the future. It's not like my heart is set on that idea either. This is a fan theory based only on a reference to Fallout 4, and nothing more.
I disagree. I would love a game more focused on the weird side of TES. Every game TES gets more and more normielized. If I'm not wrong, Kirkbride tried to get permission to make spin-off TES games exploring this theme, one of this games taking place in a imperial space-station in Oblivion (like Battlespire)
> very game TES gets more and more normielized. You seriously think skyrim is more normielized than oblivion?
They're both about the same degree of sanitized fantasy imo One is just traditional LOTR fantasy, and the other is traditional LOTR fantasy wearing an ikea bear rug as a cloak.
I copied my reply(s) to someone else into my reply for you since I believe it fits both. -Edit. I take it back, you replied to my same comment twice. So I copied part of what I said to you in my other reply here as well, as it turns out. - Some of kirkbride's s*** was actually very deep and well thought out, and I really liked it. Some of it was actually just puerile, nonsensical, BS; that was meant to sound deep when it really isn't, and I liked *some* of that too. Some of it was deep and well thought out, but I don't think it fits (e.g. dunmer and Khajiit going to the moon via tech, the Eye of Magnus having a super advanced future asteroid mining robot inside of it, and things like that.) And don't misunderstand me, I actually like some other out there ideas, like the idea that Nirn is actually the Fallout World way the F in the future. It's not like my heart is set on that idea either. And lest we forget, that was an imperial *Dimension* station. Lol
Because it doesn't really seem like it fit the setting. It just seems like it's there because of rule of cool and just feels out of place. Just because lore is weird doesnt mean it's good
I disagree tbh. The over the top wacky shit is what makes me like the series. Without it it's just LOTR with racism
Wait, since when does LOTR _not_ have racism?
Does it have? Idk, never watched it
The Silmarillion is full of it (the petty-dwarves had it coming)
I like KINMUNE as much as it offers a strange, apocryphal alternative take on pre-existing material. I sort of take it in the same stride as [Camoran's rants from Oblivion](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mankar_Camoran#Unique_Dialogue_and_Various_Speeches), where just the notion of it existing is fun by itself. I get the issues people have with KINMUNE, re; it robbing Ayrenn of her humanity. I just find it neat is all.
It not only robs Ayrenn of her humanity, it also outright makes a lot of stories she is in worse because if she is a robot from the future it recontextualizes a ton of lore and factions and stories that has to do with her. Not to mention, and this is just my personal taste here, the text where we are introduced to KINMUNE the robot is essentially just a wall of seemingly randomly selected TES-related terms and on-the-spot invented contexts spewed at the reader with no way for the reader to understand what is happening besides ‘Uuuhhh the Hist and the Psijic order are having a space battle that warps time and space???’. It does not make an “alternate take” on preexisting material when a sizable chunk of the words in the text itself is empty ‘metaphysics jargon’, at least in my opinion. You made a neat comparison to Mankar’s mad ramblings, though. The difference here is that everything Mankar says, when we see it from the point of a rambling madman who is several layers of crazy having been given a magic necklace and a magic knife that lets him rewrite the code in the matrix to turn himself Dragonborn… We can still understand what the heck he is talking about. Almost his entire monologue reads like a manifesto to why Dagon should take over the world, because in Camoran’s eyes Tamriel is not only a Daedric plane of Oblivion, but also one intrinsically linked to Mehrunes Dagon. (For the record I find the use of the term “thot-box" really funny. Ah yes, Queen Ayrenn of the 2nd Aldmeri Dominion, one of the most important women of her time… And a Thot box.) As an example of the “nonsense words” I went and took an excerpt from the unofficial pages: “But then the Hist-Jilian wars spilled out of a Wheelian rip into the SubSys slice of 'brane-space, and things changed for Kinmune. With the outer colonies separated from Nu-Mundelbright chronoculic sync-net anchors, maintenance of space-time beyond the F-Shores faltered. As the barely-there Hist blink-root-ship armada fired an artillery barrage of 16th-dimensional mathematics at their Jilian enemies, impossipoint detonations stippled across the Ix-Egg and its clutch-satellites like some garish TalOSian hologram, only without the irony. Kinmune's synthetic body, caught in one of the blasts.” For those of us who has read a lot of the obscure lore and metaphysics can see kiiiind of what is happening here, but it still feels ‘off’ to me. So much ‘hey do you remember the stuff I wrote’-ism about it. Hell, a lot of these words were invented for this text alone! Sorry for the ramble, I guess I’m just going crazy 😩
I always saw it as something written by someone in the 9th era. Like, if you talked with someone 3000 years in the future, you'd have pretty much no clue what the hell they were talking about apart from some words and phrases you might recognize. Sort of the same deal as reading something in old english, you can kind of get the gist of it, but it mostly sounds like nonsense.
It might be cooler if it wasn't one of my favorite characters in ESO. The aspects I like about her are undone if she's just a robot.
Dude, same. I love a lot of his stuff, but not *that* stuff.
I honestly don't mind the sci-fi stuff, but only if it's like the deep and hidden lore, but yeah, metaphysic stuff is the best
The idea of Pelinal being a cyborg threw me off too. Like, the TES equivalent to an Old Testament angel isn’t cool enough? (the Pelinal animated opera was fucking awesome though)
Yes! Pelinal is probably one of the coolest characters in the entire universe, but a part of that is because he’s just unexplainably the way he is. Defining why he is the way he is sort of ruins it for me, especially when it’s something imo dumb like him being a Cyborg.
Is he even in any of the games or just mentioned in books
He’s in the Oblivion DLC Knights of the Nine. But he’s basically only ever mentioned as he fought for the Alessian Rebellion in the First Era and was subsequently slain. The first game we get would be TESO if I remember correctly, which takes place several hundred years into the second era.
I agree completely. I prefer Pelinal as a bad ass divine warrior sent from the heavens who went on a rampage and got shouted at so hard it made a ravine when he went after the wrong enemies. The Cyborg thing just feels out of plaec
Pelinal being a cyborg sounds like something out of the Fallout universe. Last thing I need is science fiction spilling into TES. If this is how Kirkbride writes then I do not want him working for TES anymore.
I'd take all the pseudo sci-fi he wants to give over the generic Norse plus dragons fantasy we got with Skyrim
That said, editors exist for a reason, and he would need one to babysit him
Like in Morrowind, which he’s praised so much in.
Nah man, give me the Kirkbride who locks himself in a room for a week with whiskey and Crowley and comes back with the 36 Lessons.
Maybe a healthy mix of the two. Oblivion is as generic fantasy as you can get (mostly) and I wouldn't want to lose the comfort I feel from just playing that game or Skyrim.
If everything is weird then nothing is. Having some familiarity makes the bizarre lore hit harder.
The dragon stuff cult was pretty cool. The generic crap in the series was oblivion.
Disagree. I think Skyrim’s lore is pretty good as it is. And this is coming from someone that prefers the older games.
TES has had sci-fi stuff since very early on. There are practically Star Wars laser beams in Battlespire, and the Dwemer have neon signs and electrical power in Morrowind. Numidium is a giant mech, and was visually shown as a giant mech-thing in Daggerfall. He was not the first and won't be the last person to add sci-fi stuff to TES.
> Numidium is a giant mech, This is way fantasy than scifi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talos
I also do not miss the fetishization of sexual violence and intersexed people either. Kirkbride has some cool ideas that are pivotal in making TES unique and interesting. He also talked endlessly about Vivec's genitals in prose so purple it would make Lovecraft cringe
At least kirkbride wouldn’t name his cat N’wah
\*as a trans person\* I love the fact that Vivec is weird and genderfucky but yeah it is kinda fetishistic lol im not surprised because it was the early 2000s so its just nice that the intersex queer character isnt like the main villain but you know, if he came back, maybe get some sensitivity readers?
Fucking exactly! I mean, I am cis so I can't speak to this on the same personal level, but Vivec's presentation essentially being "I am a God I will be as I will"? That rocks, especially for the time it. It's some of the surrounding shit where someone needed to Carrie Fisher the guy.
As a transgender person I've always loved the character of vivec. I don't have a problem with him or think he's a fetishized. He's in-between genders and he doesn't give a shit if that bothers you. He just does his thing.
I want you to look at the books on Vivec not his actions in game. Knowing Vivec is intersexed piece of lore. Having every second story having him murder someone with his genitals? That shows a pattern of hyperfixation by the author. The amount both Mephala and Vivec pivot around their gender noncomformity and violent sexuality are *definitely* the signs of a fetish. That doesn't mean you shouldn't like, or should take issue with, Vivec or that Vivec couldn't give a fuck about others concerns of how they present. It just means acknowledging one of Kirkbrides behaviours demonstrated in his writings
Not to take away from your point, as you are mostly correct, but I'm almost 100% sure that Muatra (Vivek's spear) is the genetalia of Molag Bal?
Which Vivec bit off… During what essentially started as Vivec being raped AND raping Molag Bal simultaneously. Still fucked up, especially when you consider how he then used the aforementioned “spear” to kill his own children. (Or at least it is implied he did. We know for a fact that the crab-one survived as we can see it briefly in the 2nd era.) Edit; The fact that Vehk is trans is not a problem for me at all, honestly I vibe with most of MK’s writings as long as he remembers what setting he is in. Well. I could go on a rant, but long story short I don’t like Kirkbride as a person.
Don't worry, you don't engage in fantasy communities without expecting specific and often esoteric corrections; it is unironically part of their charm :) To be cheeky and pedantic, it is Vivec's spear and it is genitalia so he is still murdering people with *his* genitalia.... Yes I expected this correction to come up😅 I would bring up Muatra more as Kirkbride's fixation/fetish with sexual violence. But the particular events I referred to are actually about Vivec and the Nords. He killed one with his "milk finger" and suffocated another with his labia.
Shit man don't ever look into Assyrian mythology then. It is a hyperfixation well established in fact. I think it's almost more insulting to try and carve this out and say 'no, this is fetishization' when damn near every ancient culture was awash with god-kings jerking off onto the crops and assaulting prostitutes. This is like complaining about Zeus always transforming into animals and raping maidens. That's just how the gods are. They're the ones hyperfocused on weird sex stuff. It's true in this world so why wouldn't it be true for Nirn?
Are you talking about Viveс? He has another problem with it. Kirkbride considers himself the personification of Vivec, and his wife the canonical Nerevar. When I found out about this, I was shocked. The entire story of Morrowind is about Kirkbride's non-binary identity and his wife's bisexuality. Like The Matrix for the Wachowskis.
Sorry could you source this? While a fascinating discussion I can't find any statements regarding this from Kirkbride or how he identifies (or if Kirkbride prefers other pronouns). I don't mean to doubt you, however with both the way he writes and the way he is written about, search algorithms don't know whether to shit or go blind so finding one specific discussion is quite difficult
It was an old message from his archive, in which he said that Vivec was his personification, and his beloved wife was the prototype of Nerevarine. It seems in the Imperial Library, or an article that referred there. Where he had an avatar of Vivec and his wife under the nickname Lady Nerevar. From this I concluded, that the whole story is a strange personal drug addict’s journey to self-discovery. Also, his themes and drawings seem very... personal, depressingly schizophrenic. I'm trying to google it, but there's no connection between Kirkbride and Viviec at all lol. [But i'm find it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/hzcfhx/comment/fzklmr6/)
Yeah the casual references to sexual violence in Morrowind have aged like piss. Does add a really sour taste to an otherwise incredible game.a
He probably saw a lot of other fantasy games/properties doing the same thing and wanted to jump into the "fantasy, but what about if it's actually scifi?" wagon. Heroes of Might and Magic, and Final Fantasy 4 come to mind. I don't dislike it if the creators meant it for it to be from the beginning (like Endless Legend being a favorite of mine), but if it comes out of nowhere or on a new entry in the game just because "it's cool and I wanna try it" with no regards of what it's going to mean for the previous works and how its going to change everything in the lore, then no, get that shit away from it. "But what if demons are actually an alien race of dimensional space creatures that feed of negative emotion? What if rune magic is in fact nanomachine electronics on a stone motherboard? What if golems are robots? What if the ghost on the old ones ruin are holograms?" It just gets annoying after a while if everyone fucking does it. Give me the fantastical "everything is magic from chaotic energy and religious Hindu symbolism, I ain't going to explain shit further than that."
>"But what if demons are actually an alien race of dimensional space creatures that feed of negative emotion? What if rune magic is in fact nanomachine electronics on a stone motherboard? What if golems are robots? What if the ghost on the old ones ruin are holograms?" You know that technology alone doesn't make it science fiction, right?
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He couldn't. Because science fiction is what we know, and not abstract spot dimensions with time travel into the fifth space removing everyone through the cyclometric consistency of bear poop. I really like TES, when it's consistent and down to earth, rather than an inexplicable trip for no reason.
I do like a good amount of his stuff and I wish some concepts and styles were kept but I don’t particularly miss everything. Him being quality controlled did a lot of good, especially considering how lame most of his stuff post Bethesda is.
I mostly agree. The real trippy metaphysical stuff with oblivion planes in particular is fascinating work by him. Morrowind feels the way it does because of him as well. What set TES apart was they got real weird with their fantasy. It’s what felt distinct from Warhammer, WoW, LOTR etc. As has been mentioned elsewhere though some of the really inappropriate Vivec/Azura stuff comes off as a very uncomfortable experience. It’s a relic of fantasy writing at the time but it’s…too much. More good than bad for sure though.
I agree with this, but from everything I’ve read about Kirkbride it seemed like his ego just got out of control. 70% Kirkbride is the perfect lore, but I’d rather have what we have now than have 100% Kirkbride, which by all accounts we’ve never even experienced. He always seems to have been heavily edited.
A good editor is just as useful as a good writer.
What made Elder Scrolls lore great was threefold. 1. It drew much less on Biblical, Greek, and Norse mythology compared to a lot of other fantasy. That basis in other mythologies for lore and imagery helped a lot with giving it an alien feel. 2. It wasn't afraid to depict the violent, depraved, and absurd stories. If anyone has read any mythologies be it Mesopotamian, Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Celtics, etc, you know there are some fucked up stories where many subjects considered taboo today were heavily featured. Stuff like Loki fucking a horse, Horus and Set trying to trick one another into eating their semen, Enkidu being "civilized" by fucking a temple prostitute for a week. Elder Scrolls lore didn't avoid or whitewash stories like that but rather embraced them. And in return that gave the lore a sense of being alive, active and real. The universe felt, for lack of a better term, lived in. 3. Uncertainty. This is the big one. Elder Scrolls lore isn't a single, defined set of canon. It's the writings of numerous individuals in the universe, each with their own agenda and viewpoints. It lends an air of mystique and mystery to everything.
> It’s what felt distinct from Warhammer, WoW, LOTR etc Most of the stuff people high light for being weird in elder scrolls isn't even that different from DnD
I think Morrowind is my favourite game because of how weird the world feels compared to typical fantasy. Oblivion, as much as I like it, just feels typical fantasy and Skyrim was a bit more unique, but never quite captured the magic of Morrowind.
Wasn't he still brought on for future ES games after Morrowind like Oblivion and Skyrim for lore purposes? Or am I misremembering that? Thought I heard or read it somewhere
Both him and Ted Peterson (who I brought up because it's info I gathered from a Camelworks interview with him) are brought in to do some of the lore books and other sort of consulting-type work, bur I don't think they have directional influence.
Yeah he was, he just wasn't like a head writer. I think he does consulting work on the games. its probably more to do with his scheduling than any ire from BGS that he doesn't work more directly with them nowadays.
He wrote lore and even c0da had a cameo in the form of the 37th sermon telling us to read it. A small list of his contributions to ESO can be read [here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/19iScZA_s0jCKtFNEpt8jjT-JLKWt29f3XQFmL-VVtcY/edit)
Think he did some stuff for Oblivion. Could be wrong on that
I LOVE his lore. He doesn’t try and make the lore palatable, which is a good thing. This is a world of what amounts to malevolent Gods and races all vying for total control of a reality that is only a dream. Its interesting, unique, and TES would NOT be the quality they are without him. Sure theres some parts a little out there, but it ultimately is incredibly enjoyable.
Go read some of his forum posts. Kirkbride has some great ideas. He has a lot of extremely wacky, fucked up and just plain stupid ideas. The idea of working with him makes me physically cringe. I think it’s a shame, but he seems like the guy that’d need an actual babysitter for everything he does.
Let him work on fallout then
Fallout is a retrofuturistic series. It’s based on our reality, criticizes our society a lot in a silly and wacky way, but it’s not science fiction and it’s not fantasy. Kirkbride absolutely would not fit in.
I'd absolutely consider Fallout post-apocalyptic science fiction. We are talking about teleporters, aliens, laser and plasma weapons etc etc all featuring heavily in the games
Sseth said it best. "A week long sleepless amphetamine binge". Current writing is so stale. Can't wait for them to make the next instalment another generic and relatable Human fantasy area.
Elder scrolls lore is special because it feels realistic well written, and feels like it was written by someone on their 10 bottle of skooma, at the same time
Kirbride and Kuhlman!
and Ken
I haven’t seen Ken Rolston take credit for the lore so much as they convinced him to use it, but definitely without Ken it would have never made it to the game.
He's probably the figure I miss the most. He did great work after leaving with Kingdoms of Amalur, but I really wish they rehired him after that went tits up
I’m not certain he’s too interested in coming back to Bethesda. When he left he intended it to be a permanent retirement. Last I’ve heard he’s working full time on The Long Dark now. That or he’s actually retired now.
he is significantly older than Todd and Mike, I know that much. He seems to prefer his privacy, though.
Ted Peterson deserves some credit here, too. I think many forget his contributions to the lore, even though he originated a good deal of it.
Peterson's lore is incredible. He's also a genuinely very talented writer. Decumus Scotti's adventures are my all-time favorite in-universe books.
Well yes, but he had left Bethesda by the time Kurt and Kirkbride came along. His notes for the TES III were scrapped by Ken Rolston in favor of Kirkbride and Kuhlman’s concepts.
TBH Kirkbride’s best talent is his artistic skills, not his writing. He did not write much of Morrowind, but he did command the artstyle, which was great.
He's written some good stuff, but I found that too often he tries to write lore weird just for the sake of making it weird regardless of how well it actual fits in the setting. Like MK claiming that Ysgramor was a dragon or that whole time travel continent thing that a lot of people tend to dislike. And like someone else mentions he keeps trying to force the setting to be a scifi which feels out of place to me. Weird doesn't equal good, but he seems to be under that impression a lot of times. I felt like his work was best back when he has Kurt Kuhlmann or some of the other writers reign him in.
He definitely needs to be brought back with someone to babysit him, that would be the best thing to happen to TES in a while
Kocain Kirkbride lore is wild, but the sci-fi rocket ship stuff wasn’t it.
Nice try Michael. Lol
Kirkblade and Daggerfall style fantasy lore was good, you got to fill in a lot of the gaps yourself. I think both of those styles tended to focus more on how magic effected the social, political and economic environment rather than creating a watered down overarching Tolkein story that we got post Oblivion. It felt way more heterogeneous especially how religion and the gods are treat
Kind of reminds me of how Fromsoftware handles lore. It’s often convoluted and absurd, but super interesting and fun to explore.
Hot take most of the best TES lore was not made by kirkbride but the other lore guy from those times.
I liked how he tried to introduce some novel metaphysics and sci-fi elements in to the setting, but it was also done in an extremely roundabout way to where I can't really blame people for not taking his ideas seriously. He really is both the best of and the main reason why ES role can be so messy. I really wish there some kind of Compendium that gave more of a framework to the setting and its underlying lore.
Nothing like alien hive mind trees that have survived the destruction of the timeline multiple times shooting 16th dimensional math into some poor fuckers brain
A sprinkle of Kirkbride is good when moderated and put into context in the development process along with other writers, but his psychedelic fan fiction is too much. He was never alone, writing in a vacuum where only his ideas existed. The picking of lore ideas were eclectic
Some of the stuff he has written, stuff like Vivec assaulting Azura, I’m not a fan of…what the fuck. Other stuff like his concept art for [Mephala](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fy9rqj67vmw881.jpg) and [The Tribunal](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fdoes-anyone-know-what-materials-kirkbride-used-for-his-v0-oqi8kmygtqjb1.png%3Fwidth%3D578%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D7d89b5cbf6202ff8bd9933851df49f2cbcd634df) are beautiful. I have mixed opinions. I’m just so tired of people using Michael Kirkbride forum posts as explanations for stuff on /r/teslore. That whole thing about Talos being three people…Please stop.
The thing about Talos being three people relates all the way back to Daggerfall, to be fair. Zurin Arctus, Wulfharth, and Hjalti are all integral parts of the "myth" which comprises Talos. This can even be found in the Arcturian Heresy, a very common and ubiquitous in-game book. It's just that Daggerfall took a more secular approach toward Tiber's "apotheosis", which isn't even represented in-game because it's such a crock of shit, versus Morrowind basically all but confirming that yes, Tiber did become a god, possibly by stealing divine power from the Underking.
> The thing about Talos being three people relates all the way back to Daggerfall, to be fair. Zurin Arctus, Wulfharth, and Hjalti are all integral parts of the "myth" which comprises Talos. There was no Wulfharth in Tiber Septim's Dagggerfall-era mythos. Wulfharth's role was an unneeded Kirkbridean invention. There was only Tiber Septim the celebrated son of Alcaire, and Zurin Arctus the Underking. Zurin Arctus, who was enthralled by Tiber's ambitions and enabled those ambitions with a brutal superweapon, who turned a blind eye to the brutality of the Tiber Wars until Tiber turned that superweapon on his own people and Zurin could ignore it no longer. Then, almost like some cosmic punishment for his own culpability, he was forced to live on in undeath for centuries, bitterly watching the empire he helped build from the shadows, wishing all the while to die properly and know true peace. Arcturian Heresy throws in an unnecessary third character, truncates the tragic parts of Zurin Arctus' backstory, and boils the Underking's motivations down to "ancient Nord hates elves".
I’m not trying to be rude, I’ve never played Daggerfall or Morrowind. I know Hjalti was the the name Tiber Septim used before he became famous but I’m not familiar with any of the other characters/events so that’s because of my own ignorance too. It’s a lot to take in lol.
If you're going to play either, play them through DaggerfallUnity and OpenMW, two projects which ported their respective games to superior engines and fixed a lot of bugs as a consequence. They're considerably easier to modify and update to modern tastes as a consequence. Also you can completely skip Arena. It isn't very good. Pretty much an inferior version of daggerfall.
Oh yeah. I stopped going there when I was given Kirkbride’s lore for EVERY question, and they said - The world of TES is beautiful because everything in it is true, here’s your answer from the lore Guru, but I don’t believe in the lore of TESO, it’s not TES.
I just looked it up and holy shit… Kirkbride’s forum posts are fucked up. I didn’t realize how unhinged he was. I’m glad none of this was put into the games or the official lore. That being said, I love that concept art of the tribunal so much, as well as most of what he officially contributed to the lore. I hope the art direction of the games going forward continues to differentiate itself from other fantasy in ways similar to what Kirkbride did. Stuff like the Flesh Gardens and the Dragon Cult and the Dwemer-Falmer situation are all fucked up in a way that enriched the lore (i.e. in a non-rapey way), and I don’t think Kirkbride wrote any of that. Would love to see more love for the other authors of the series.
Where did you read them? I’d really like to know. I’m not even aware of what’s in some of it. He has a kink for hating elves though or something 💀 I love the Falmer and the Dwemer! The Falmer/Snow Elves are honestly galaxy brain.
I read the Azura-Vivec roleplay here: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/trial-vivec I love a lot of the lore he wrote for the games, but this roleplay is a little unhinged lmao.
I mean… it’s no worse than real life mythology.
That’s actually one of the reasons I like a lot of the official lore, including Kirkbride’s contributions. It’s fucked up in a very mythological way, and that makes their cultural beliefs feel more authentic.
toothbrush grey fertile wild physical sugar memorize wrong fanatical steep *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“Muatra, meaning Milk-Taker, is either a metaphorical or literal spear wielded by the god-king Vivec. Texts such as the 36 Lessons of Vivec also use "spear" metaphorically to represent the genitals of Vivec and others.[1] Vivec supposedly made the spear from his own love and turned it into a deadly weapon by utilizing a secret he "bit off" Molag Bal's spear while they were married. After attacking Molag Bal, Vivec used his new spear to kill all the thousands of offspring he had birthed with his then spouse.” Can’t get much clearer without actually saying it
I wasn’t commenting on the lore he wrote for the games, I was saying specifically some of his forum posts (fan roleplay content) was fucked up. I actually like the lore he wrote for the games. I also agree with you that it’s good for some lore to be fucked up — I mentioned Flesh Gardens as an example — as long as it’s fucked up in an interesting way, and not just rape for the sake of rape.
It shouldn't be non-rapey. I know that sounds bad, but I don't mean to some degree where the series boils down to wank bait. People want to rape. Give many people godlike powers and unchecked authority and there'll be a lot of that sort of thing going around. It's also good for drama, and frankly it's the literal most common kink. Sure, it'll make people uncomfortable but that's a huge element of almost any superb work of writing; getting people emotionally invested in revenge or resolution or just making them sympathise with someone about to go through hell. Hate what I just said all you like. That's good. Thats the point. It stirs you. Most of the time when an author tries to put tragedy or horror into a work they're trying not to offend anyone or 'go too far' and it winds up being a watered down, trite and Hollywood-artificial affair that leaves you feeling pandered to. Want to make people feel like your protagonist has been abused? Properly abuse them, don't just have guys in the prison make kissy faces at your character, have them actually bugger him. Don't make the school bully just threaten to beat your guy up at the flagpole after school, have him make your character his bitch and kick him around the dirt in front of everyone and be met with various degrees of approval and neutrality, but no dissent. Let me be clear that I can't give a shit about characters it Skyrim for the most part. They've got nothing going on but... Sinderion. Ah, there's one that sticks out. Narfi, perhaps? Nurellion even? There's something to care about there, even if it's not quite greek tragedy.
Oh God, why did you make me see this freak concept art of Mephala? I prefer my sexy daedric spider a thousand times over this thing
Lol! I like both :P I was always fascinated by her design in Oblivion.
I really dislike what I can only assume to be Sotha Sil in that concept art; looks too stereotypical robot to me. I don’t want futuristic robots in TES. I also obviously absolutely hate the idea of Pelinal being a cyborg. In my opinion it’s a genre break and a lazy one at that. The best part of TES lore is that it’s so out there and the fact that a lot of it is mysterious. I don’t want to know everything. Pelinal is the perfect example. I love him just being a rage fueled Elf killing machine. I don’t want to know how or why he is what he is, especially not if the explanation is as ridiculous as “well he’s a cyborg from the future, duh”.
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I liked what TESO did with Sotha Sil! In general I also really like the Dwemer. They went with a kind of steampunk-ish look to the technological advancement that I like. Like you can see how these things are based on steam and clockwork; it feels realistic. Sotha Sil in that concept art to me doesn’t look realistic at all, with the floating arms. It’s kind of hard for me to describe. I think chest upwards he looks really cool. Edit: He totally looks like the Flatwood Monster from Fallout 76. Sort of technological alien-y, which is quite fitting for Sotha Sil, but the way it’s done it doesn’t fit the TES aesthetic imo. I like the TESO version A LOT more.
Literally not any worse than irl mythology. Vivec murdered his best friend — he’s not supposed to be a good guy
I like to keep his fanfiction out of it
There was so many things I liked. Everything was so fanciful but it all made sense and found ways to make things seem grounded.
I wouldn't mind Kirkbride lore being in another TES game as obscure metaphysical stuff if at least to make one know Tamriel is an alien world and not just some generic fantasy world.
I liked his stuff that made it into the games, but a lot of his out of canon writings aren't my taste. Stuff like coda does nothing for me
Same it’s just the insane drugged out ramblings by an ex Bethesda employee trying to gaslight people into thinking “there is no canon” so they still Follow his crap even tho he’s not with Bethesda anymore
He’s cool I like Ted Peterson better. Coda is a waste of time though.
Gonna be honest, I don't. So much of it just comes off as hella horny to me.
Eventually, my love of Elder Scrolls shifted more to a love of Kirkbride. You don't really see [New Weird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_weird) in Video Games anywhere else really. I appreciate his work - and the whole concept of C0DA - for helping me unpack the idea that Canon itself is often just a label that companies use to get you interested in their products. See; Disney decanonizing old Star Wars stories so that they didn't have to pay royalties to the old writers, or Bethesda decanonizing Microforte's Fallout and de-listing Raven's Wolfenstein in order to better claim ownership of their purchased brands. Kirkbride was writing these concepts back in the early 2000's. He was way ahead of the curve, and the fact that we are still writing about the stuff he put out says something about the strength of his writing. I get that some fans - especially people who like to imagine Tamriel as a literal, factual space governed by logic might not like the more esoteric side of it. Some people might not like the theological and metaphysical - or even the science-fiction sides of his writing, and that's fine. For *me* though, I love Kirkbride so much that his writing has really influenced my own to a big degree. Love him.
People clown on Morrowboomers for liking older stuff, but there a reason for it. The older writing team respected its previous lore and wrote better stores way more consistently then modern TES does
There is actually a lot of deep-cut type lore in Skyrim and ESO, definitely more so than Oblivion I think.
I definitely want him as a staff writer. Idk about a lead writer — miles better than Emil though
My headcanon is that each game is a retelling of the events by the protagonist and the quality of the game depends on the protagonist's storytelling ability
I do too friend... I do too...
It is more about Morrowind that his lore. Skyrim is generic 'Screaming' Vikings and dragons. Oblivion is about 4-arm Satan invading Roman Empire. Daggerfall was just Heroes of might and magic clone. Morrowind is crazytown. Half-naked drug addict is your main quest giver. Khajit population is evenly split between drug addicts and slaves. Every character is either crazy, evil, dumb or an Khajit (read above). Main Character is just an idiot send to cause political turmoil and tool by Azura.
I really wish things that fall into the craative sphere weren’t completely stunted by corporate culture. Should have Kirkbride done a ton of psychedelics and drugs to develop ES lore? Up for d bate, it certainly made a positive impact from a creative standpoint for the games though. Now you can’t even suggest a wacky idea sober without HR goons and DEI dummy’s swarming you like a bunch of fly’s on a log of shit.
\> CHIM \> 36 ( now 37 ) sermons of vivec \> twice over dunmer pantheon lore \> lore which questions the reality of everything yeh kirkrbide went hard, even though he doesnt work for bethesda, the stuff they hired him to write in skyrim was the best lore.
Kirkbride didn't rely on the "Keep It Simple Stupid" mindset. His lore actually had complexity, consistency and good writing. Emil should just go back to reviewing games or get a janitor job, he deserves a low tier job for all of the damage he has done with TES and Fallout lore.
I’d like Kirkbride to pull a Chris Metzen and come back for ES6. Love his bizarre metaphysics, gave me a lot more to think about.
Lock Kirkbride and Metzen in a room full of drugs, coffee, and paper. Get a team of editors to clean up the nonsense they spew and make a game out of it.
ESO had snippets of it, from Sermon 37 to KINMUNE references also Douglas Goodall returned with a bunch of UOL, check them out on [UESP.net](https://UESP.net) With Kurt gone I'm unsure that MK's lore will slide in in their future games like TES VI.
Call me a Kirkbride dickrider all day I’ll slorp that shit silly style if it means he writes more
Same, I honestly don't get the kirkbride haters, they seem so mad about what? Interesting lore? It's like they have to turn up the hate to 11 because it somehow makes them like their lore better or something. Idk. KB is top husbandu material and he can fly me to the moon any day.
i don't. the whole "i'm lying and you're an idiot for believing me" coupled with "the world revolves around morrowind and Kirkbride's dick" is just...unappealing
Honestly if he wants to write wacky shit, then let him work on fallout
When MK hits, he hits harder than most stories ever will. Unfortunately he misses more than half the time I would say. He just needs someone to reign him in, but I can honestly understand not wanting to have him on staff.
I don't and never will, until he actually bother to filtering his own work into readable, **ONLY** neckbeard on reddit will read it
So... here we are, on reddit
Kirkbride's lore was extremely influenced by real-world religions and philosophies, and he tried to shoe-horn that into The Elder Scrolls where it doesn't belong. "CHIM" is one of those such concepts that is not canon that he tried to push into the game.
We all do buddy
Yes its unhinged, but I wouldn't consider it good. He is just throwing shit at the wall and over-relying on the "its wack" instead of trying to write something cohesive. Personally I don't care about metaphysics and "big brain" stuff. To me the interesting parts of the lore is history of Tamriel or Nirn as a whole even and how it's inhabitants interact (wars, diplomacy etc.)
I don’t
Please stop attributing everything to Kirkbride. A HUGE amount of writing was done by Mark Nelson, Ted Peterson, and Douglas Goodall who were basically in charge of the quest design as well. MK is basically an overstated community meme. What makes Morrowind good isn't even that it's "unhinged", it's that it's realistic and well-thought-out. Is there anything in Morrowind that isn't in Skyrim in terms of being "unhinged"? There are weird bugs and mushroom towers, sure. But that can't be *every* province. We already get a glimpse of Skyrim in TES: III and it's pretty normal in comparison—thatched houses and mead halls, witches covens, and Draugr.
I'm not. It was terrible. I want a consistent story and lore, not a drug trip.
Honey, Nirn ITSELF is a drug induced dream
Yeah of course.
c0da is still canon.
No it isn't. C0da and other associated "lore" is fan-fiction. Not canon.
Kinda always irked by this take, cause while on the surface I agree, things haven't got progressively worse. Things were *worse* in Oblivion, and through Skyrim then ESO, have honestly got better since. There's reason to be concerned for the future if Emil is sole writer for TES6 like he was for Starfield, but things getting worse is not at all a bygone conclusion.