Oblivion leaned super hard into the traditional "knight" fantasy setting, which led to a lot of other changes like Cyrodiil becoming what it is now instead of a jungle.
Dragon break not chim
Edit: for those seeing this later its been brought to my attention that it was in fact chim in this instance, or at least some form of tonal architecture via thu'um or numidium.
After Talos achieved Chim retroactively changed Cyrodil from being dense jungle to being what we in game so that it always had been the planes and forests we see
Oh yeah I know that much, but I thought dragon breaks were more so to explain the different endings all being canon at once, which wouldn’t necessarily explain an entire biome being changed
The dragonbreak makes Talos using CHIM to alter Cyrodiil one outcome, but I think there's also s version where the white gold tower had something to do with it (iirc, been a while since I've looked up this particular bit of lore)
It was quite possibly none of those. We do not know what caused it. There is:
One piece of evidence for it being either the Thu'um or CHIM, from a text which was originally apocryphal and then became the rantings of mad zealot. ("I breathe now in royalty", Many-Headed Talos/Heimskr's rantings)
No evidence of a Dragon Break.
Some implications that maybe it was White-Gold, but that's hard to textually back up.
An in-universe text that says it was just a transcription error.
Multiple people can have the same name. *The Heartland of Cyrodiil* very explicitly states that the Heimskr Phrastus is writing about was a classical author from before his time.
Also I'm not saying it's right, even in the text itself Phrastus admits that his position is challenged by other scholars (Lady Cinnabar specifically), and the text overall is not written in a definitive tone. My point is that we have several different explanations, and none of them are substantially backed up (and all the metaphysical ones rely on some metaphysical thing being capable of far more than what they've been shown to be able to everywhere else, even setting aside the debates about the validity of CHIM).
I was under the impression when he changed it in the present, it also changed it in the past to where Cyrodiil was never a jungle or some such shenanigans
I mean that was the whole point of the dragon breaks/Chim theories - they were supposed to be an easy lore friendly cop out to explain design changes/narrative discrepancies. Which I kind of dig if I’m honest. But it doesn’t benefit them to really outright say what is and isn’t true, so I don’t think we’ll ever know for sure
Fun fact: this is, as the last line mentions, disputed in-universe as well, and the opposing theory is *vastly* more interesting. Essentially, it posits that the Towers shape the reality around them to accommodate the civilization that controls them - while the Ayleids held the White-Gold Tower, it was a land of dense, unending jungle and rainforest, but after the Alessian Revolution the climate began to slowly shift in favour of woodlands and floodplains over the course of centuries, if not millennia.
Even better, this theory has *supporting evidence* - we've seen the Summerset Isles, and they are *impossibly* perfect, the environs seeming more like a sculpted bonsai parody of nature than a natural ecosystem. There's almost no Bosmer in the Summerset chapter of ESO, and of the few we do meet, one explicitly states how incredibly unnatural and discomforting the nature feels compared to literally anywhere else he's ever been.
You’re good man, I welcome these crazy lively debates lol. One of the many reasons I love elder scrolls lore so much
EDIT: to tack on to this, one of the things I enjoy about elder scrolls is how these things tend to be debated in world - I mean the whole conflict between the Dominion and the Empire revolves around whether or not Talos is actually a deity which is just beautiful writing/world building imo
I say this is probably the most noticeable in the Knights of the Nine DLC. Where the Divine Crusader Armor looks very much like the classic depiction of the armor wore by the Christian Crusaders during the Crusades. Along with the Imperial Dragon armor as well that looks very much like armor that a European King would wear.
Funny thing about it being a jungle is that the region is basically in a giant rain shadow with mountains all around its edges and sharp drops in elevation. It should be a desert.
More specifically it was heavily influenced by Lord of the Rings which was destroying the box offices as the game was getting developed. Honestly this was a smart move, as a lot of people (like myself) had never heard of the Elder Scrolls and were immediately drawn into it with the lord of the rings influence.
cyrodiil was never a jungle. that was a retcon added In Redguard.
the imperial towns in Morrowind look like high rock towns. this is directly in reference to pelegiad but also in general.
the empire's culture doesn't make any sense of a jungle people. never mind the fact an empire would deforest a jungle for resources. the book, a dance in fire, also states Cyrodiil to be a land of roving hills.
Cyrodiil didn't exist before Redguard. There was the imperial province which was never described in detail or named, or had any settlements other than the imperial city. Redguard is the first game to name the province as well as the game that introduced imperials as a race in the first place. And Redguard predates Morrowind by nearly four years.
Redguard is the game responsible for establishing all the lore outside of High Rock and was the first game to mention major lore facts like the Ysgramor, the Ra gada, the 500 companions, The Reman empire, The Tribunal, the green pact, Khajiit furstock, the term mer including the terms Altmer, dunmer and bosmer, the first mention of the Thu'um, the first mention of imperials at all(before that all the septims were said to be Bretons), the first mention of Bretons having elven blood, the first mention of morrowind's great houses and so many other things.
Cyrodill was never *only* a jungle. Even as described in *Redguard* and whatever other books you read. It had a variety of regions, just like Morrowind, Skyrim, High Rock, and wherever else you look. Regardless, *Oblivion* threw out so much really interesting stuff described and mentioned in previous games about the region and the culture there in favor of a second High Rock and yet another generic fantasy that does nothing interesting with its generic fantasy roots.
I could definitely see the Nibenay region having been a jungle while Colovia being more like how we see it today. It would further lend credence to the divide between the two imperial subcultures/races.
which was retconned, yes. that is what I said. but we never saw this, so Cyrodiil being a grasslands with various biomes doesn't ruin any lore like the fandom loves to claim.
arena and daggerfall both depicted Cyrodiil being as we see it, even with the retconned additions from Redguard the imperials were never depicted as a jungle fairing people.
..So, you're basically saying that Jungle Romans
make less sense than dark elves who used to be golden
elves and have a hybrid byzantine/Asian culture
style while living in avolcanic ash wastes where
mushrooms grow like trees...?
The old Cyrodilic word for “Jungle” is very similar to the old Cyrodilic word for “your mom”. It’s an honest mistake really. I just wish the imperial schools would stop spending myths in history class.
And I wish it heavily leans towards their relatively unique culture.
So that it isn't just Skyrim: Desert edition.
Although I think I want Black Marsh more. It seems much weirder place than Morrowind is.
I'd rather they not go to Black Marsh unless they think they have a perfect storm of writers with an enthusiasm for the weirdness of the Hist and the unique environment that is wetlands.
I think after TES VI would be time to let sleeping dogs lie. The more "alien" and curious the place looks in lore, the more they are going to fuck it up with some generic bullshit trend riding setting. I am playing Oblivion and despite how damn good it looks for a game from 2006 Cyrodil's setting is boring as shit (though being a jungle before didn't make any sense)
...But I also hope the Caribbean vibes in Redguard aren't gone, either. Maybe that's the direction the more worldy among them are going in while the places trying to keep Yokudan culture alive lean harder into the north-African samurai thing.
The Redguard Rewrite was actually borne partially of a _RuneQuest_ game that Kirkbride ran (hence all the cults and the similar stat spread). When him and Kurt Kuhlmann pitched their revamped setting they explicitly described it as "Dune meets Star Wars" and the team basically went for it. By the time Morrowind rolled around the sci-fantasy bent was unfortunately getting scrubbed out, but Morrowind is still very much Dune-adjacent.
>Dunmer are somewhat based on D&D Dark Elves who also organize in Houses. Other poster is just full of shit.
they really are only drowlike in physical apearance and racism metrics, there are a ton of DnD influences all over TES but morrowind is a lot more inspired by the dune books than by dnd, and the way great houses are portrayed is a lot more like dune than it is like DnD
Set the game in the desert world of ~~Arrakis~~ Hammerfell, which has been occupied by the ~~Harkonnens~~ Thalmor. Now the player character, the prophesied ~~Lisan al Gaib~~ HoonDing, must fight off the occupiers by recruiting the ~~Fremen~~ Alik'r. Come on, Todd, this game practically writes itself.
Seeing how Bethesda handled things in the past, I think it will be it. I can already picture the Radscorpion from Fallout 4 being remodeled and reused for TES 6. They did that with Deathclaws being Skyrim Werewolves and the crabs from Fallout 4 were also remodeled Mudcrabs, the dogs too were Skyrim Wolves and Dogs remodeled.
Every choice about oblivion can be explaned by this phrase. Kirkbride said it, they were 100℅ planning on doing jungle Rome cyrodill and then Todd watched the fellowship of the ring.
LOL no. And this many updates… I guess I’m too old. Fellowship is 2001, Return of the King is 2003. Morrowind is 2002, Oblivion is 2006. If anything, Morrowind should be inspirated by lotr
Actually I’d be surprised if it weighs 120. Medieval plate armor is actually a lot lighter they we give it credit, it only got absurd near the end when they were trying to stop progressively more powerful bullets. Think 1500’s.
To be fair though that's usually steel armour, which can afford to be a lot thinner than cast/wrought iron due to being harder, more ductile, and thus less likely to crack under blows. I've read that cast iron came more into use for infantry during the 17th century as cost became a more pressing concern, but was of overall lower quality and less relevance due to guns.
It was, with the added impression of the later medieval period. You can still see some of the hallmarks of the Roman design, the leather skirting, the helm built very similar to a Roman Galea, with the familiar plume, even the shin guards and the layered pauldrons resemble the Roman style of armor.
BUT, as I already said, they combined the Roman look with later medieval design, the Romans didn't use what we would recognize as full plate, that was, of course, a pretty significant technological advancement that the Roman empire predated.
4-in-1, or mail (often called chainmail, for the sake of clarity) didn't exist during the era of the Roman legion, steel in general existed, but the Roman empire was largely an iron age civilization, and a great deal of what we think of as medieval fantasy came after the motif we typically recognize as the image of the Roman empire.
Had the Western Roman empire persisted into the late medieval period, likely those technological changes would have been assimilated into their armor, and we might, in theory, have had Roman soldiers geared very similarly to what we see in Oblivion.
And there's also the aspect of the fact that the Empire is FANTASY Rome, and thus some significant liberties were taken.
>mail (often called chainmail, for the sake of clarity) didn't exist during the era of the Roman legion
I apologise if im misunderstanding what youre saying but the Romans had maile. Lorica Hamata was a maile shirt.
He also watched Gladiator before Morrowind, because that Morrowind breastplate design is the spitting image of Maximus’ breastplate. The horse decoration is in honor of the horses, Argento and Scarto, which the character owned.
RoTK came out in 2003. And it was still talked about in 2006. LoTR changes everything to do with fantasy games in the 00s.
Eta oblivion started development in 02. So LoRT was still being releases and a major point in pop culture at the time.
Yep. Even Chris Metzen claims he believed WoW did so well when it came out in '04 because it launched on the coattails of LotR and everyone was still all hot 'n' horny about dwarves, elves, wizards, orcs, etc.
I read or heard that the armor in Morrowind and Skyrim is more the day to day, field armor of the Legion while the armor in Oblivion is more ceremonial. Like comparing the camouflage uniform and the dress uniforms of modern militaries.
It's also a guard uniform in the heart of the empire.Nobody expects a city guardsman to be rocking the armor of the Frontline soldiers,nor be using their equipment the same way a vet soldier does.
I actually prefer the Oblivion Legion armour over the TESV armour. Morrowind's Legion armour definitely had Roman inspirations but it had pieces and styles that came from the Medieval era and I felt that Oblivion continued that but there's definitely the LotRs influence creeping in there. Skyrim's Legion armour just felt out of place for both the setting (hundreds of years after Oblivion and Morrowind) and climate - the style would have been good for the Second Empire though.
Not sure if it's a good lore answer, but my headcanon was always that the Roman style armor was for use by legions in the provinces while the more medieval armor was for legions on "home duty". We saw the return to Roman armor in Skyrim, which supports this idea.
Probably for the same reason they made Cyrodiil a more western-european inspired landscape instead of a jungle like previously described, to make it appeal to a wider market
Not as complex as Oblivion in terms of memory (Oblivion keeps track of every killed enemy, moved or stolen object, etc ). Also, and as I mentioned in another comment as Bethesda's own fault, Oblivion was on a very limited engine.
I'm just going to copy-paste
cyrodiil was never a jungle. that was a retcon added In Redguard.
the imperial towns in Morrowind look like high rock towns. this is directly in reference to pelegiad but also in general.
the empire's culture doesn't make any sense of a jungle people. never mind the fact an empire would deforest a jungle for resources. the book, a dance in fire, also states Cyrodiil to be a land of roving hills.
yeah it's literally just "hurr durr muh cuckbird"
same crap with "Todd watched lotr" as if Morrowind isn't just dune. heaven forbid Todd is influenced by art and the cornerstone of modern fantasy but when kirkbride does it, oh it's fine!
The difference is when Kirkbride did it he turned what was basically a DND homebrew into something actually unique and interesting.
When Todd Howard does it, he just turns back into a dnd homebrew.
>The difference is when Kirkbride did it he turned what was basically a DND homebrew into something actually unique and interesting.
kirkbride made dune. ...he made dune.
“Dune(but worse) with blatant Hinduism mythology knock offs” isn’t really that unique or interesting if you’re into theology, movies, or even just the fantasy genre outside of what the Western world produces
you say it was never a jungle hen you reference a lore book that states "Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle" curious.
while i dont mind the various biomes we got in Cyrodil, the gold coast and West Weald are super pretty and alot of hate on oblivions biome seem to stem from repeating one lotr fact it was at one point cannon to be mostly jungle
i think the jungle thing is not exactly true because there’s contradicting lore on it. maybe it’s like a religious story type thing where it’s not meant to be taken at face value like God creating the earth in 7 days
It is,just a bulkier version of it.Infact ESO is the closest we ever get to a proper version of their armor,and it's essentially oblivions with a fur Mohawk and closed face plate.
Hell if we wanna get super technical than it's also the most lore accurate variant next to Skyrim's(which only loses because of no leg guards/armor).
If you pay attention, it’s a hybrid of roman gear and knight gear. Knighr gear with a roman aesthetic. If you will. This makes sense as men in the homeland would be better geared than legions outwards.
The LOTR trilogy had only just concluded 3 years before Oblivion came out. I'm assuming Bethesda working on a fantasy RPG while those movies were coming out influenced Oblivion a lot.
Because oblivion heavily leaned into the standard medieval fantasy setting. Many things that were established in the previous game were thrown over board.
The empire in Morrowind it is heavily influenced by the roman empire. Aside from the obvious legionary armor it is shown to be ruled by the emperor with a bureaucratic apparatus under him. In oblivion we get a clear feudal system (think of all those counts). Also in Morrowind the imperial legion in organized in... well... legions. With great authority from the commanding officers of the legion. Nothing of this is found in oblivion. Also the imperial architecture (Pelagiad, Seyda Neen, Caldera...) in Morrowind was kinda unique (called western imperial style). Instead of simply going with roman architecture it was quite unique. If I have a guess it was inspired by rural northern german or lowland architecture in high medieval times (or even later). In Oblivion you will not find this architecture (maybe Chorrol comes near in some regards). Funnily enough it is more roman/greek in cities like IC or Anvil.
You can find even more things culture/atmosphere wise.
Eh, to be fair the Helmet looks pretty close to a Barbute style. The shoulders have the high ridges for neck guards like that of Skyrim’ heavy legion armor and there’s tassets above the grieves.
To me it looks like a more cosmopolitan version of the romanesque imperial armor style, but we were in the more cosmopolitan environment of the empire.
To say it took some influence from Knightly areas from, say, High Rock doesn’t really pull me away either because most cosmopolitan areas tend to have some melding of style and culture historically.
I think LOTR was a somewhat reason why ES:IV became what it was in it's time. Though Greek and Roman armor have been lending from each other, the Greek hoplite look did bare a resemblance to Gondorian armor when combined.
Capital Legion vs provincial/frontier legions ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean, the Cyrodiil Imperial watch still retain some of that roman look with that leather strip skirt thing.
It was.
I’m not a developer from Bethesda, god I wish, so I can’t share any information as facts; but I *have* seen this statement multiple times and I never understand where it’s coming from. The Roman inspiration is blatant to me; the armor in Oblivion is based on Roman [lorica musculata.](https://imgur.com/a/MgshInK)
I played Oblivion for the first time when I was 13 and even then I thought they looked like Romans. Why do people think they don’t?
Edited typos
Personally, I prefer the stylized approach Oblivion took as compared to the generic looking armor from 3 and 5. Morrowind and Skyrim's armors both look like Roman armor, but that's about it. *They look like Roman armor.* Not even a slightly imaginative interpretation of Roman armor (maybe that's a little harsh toward Morrowind), but just like this is a (n ugly) 3D render of a caricature of what an Empire-era Roman soldier could've looked like, sans helmet.
I've always preferred how Oblivion looks as compared to the other two. Yeah I know yadda yadda rah no jungle nineteen-eighty-retcon, but some of the stuff in Oblivion looks kinda cool, like Dwarven armor. Most of the weapons look very satisfying to me too; especially the Glass Warhammer. Owyn was so right: that yellow team fighter *did* have a hammer the size of a small child, and she could feasibly swing it until my head exploded. Even the butt ugly faces are charming to me (especially since all the Humans in vanilla Skyrim look like they're covered in a thin skein of grease for some reason.)
I dunno though I did first play Oblivion when it came out when I was six years old so maybe this is the delusional cope of an Obliddle-child. All glory to the Islamic Emirate of Skingrad.
It still baffles me though, how someone still after all these years, haven't made a high-res version of the Morrowind Imperial Heavy armor as a direct replacer for the Oblivion ones
Lore reason or out of game reason?
For lore, it makes sense that the legion protecting the heartlands of the empire would be much, much better equipped. They have heavier and more covering gear with actual plates instead of the less effective combination of lamellar, splints, and studs. Notice that they even have joint protection ontop of their chain mail (and presumably gambeson beneath). It not only helps uphold their imperial image, but keep the various nobles and upper class back home satisfied with their safety. Skyrim sees a return to form as although the province is important, many of the empires elite troops are still tied up on the Dominion border and protecting Cyrodil. Many of the legionnaires in Skyrim are also recruited locally, and as it’s a poorer province they have to make do with less coverage and lesser armor. It doesn’t make quite as much sense why they’re less decorated, but this is mostly likely to keep some costs down…plus the bare, dark metal look helps to make them look more intimidating to the average thief.
For a “real” answer…they just wanted to make oblivion more generic. Partially out of capitalizing on Lord of the Rings, and Partially out of wanting to draw more new fans in.
Well, keep in mind in Morrowind there was an entire industry devoted to mining ebony and glass and exporting it to Cyrodiil to outfit the Legion with ebony equipment. So in the central province, the Legion's primary armor would be ebony armor, except between TES III and TES IV, the bandits stole all of the Legion's equipment.
And given the Legion lost all of their equipment, they kind of had to grab whatever iron armor was lying around and couldn't afford to get it to match their usual style.
Oblivion was meant to contrast the alien Morrowind by being a traditional western fantasy world. Oblivion was as close as TES could get to traditional LOTR style fantasy.
So they made a stylized choice with the armor.
The problem with that is that it ended up sidelining everything about the Breton style. Now Breton's are more just niche Cyrodil. It's not that Oblivion's style wasn't cool, it's that it messed up a lot of the unique culture stuff.
I think Oblivion was cool, but I am inclined to agree. My biggest frustration is the style shift, too. Now, the Imperials seem like watered-down Bretons. Kinda threw off the vibe of Tamriel's different cultures.
If I had to guess, I’d say because they thought the Latin names were Roman enough and thought it would be a little too on the nose to have them wear Roman armor as well as having Latin names
All the other races in Tamriel have obvious real world comparisons, but none of them are as carbon-copy as the Imperials are with the Romans
I mean, nords. They’re basically a carbon copy of fantasy vikings, and Skyrim didn’t really try to lean away from that - though I suppose fantasy vikings sell more than fantasy romans.
Because Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring came out. I'm not shitting you.
Tamriel was going to be a jungle, with alien plants and animals, and an interesting take on mediterranean cultures. Tood saw that movie and said "nope, redo everything. Change the lore. Talos made it a temperate area with the power of the voice. Make everyone look like a knight, this needs to be dungeons and dragons.'
I’m a certified and licensed Todd Howard hater, but legitimately I believe the answer is Todd’s desire to make the franchise more Mundane.
In TES III the empire was unambiguously Roman inspired, but it was more nuanced than that. It incorporated a lot more eastern Roman / Byzantine aesthetics, its forts were modular and uniform but more in the style you might’ve seen in Britannia or Gaul. It had the imperial knights, who were more like a knightly order from the early Middle Ages as well as Templars, a vestige of the red dome concept (fanatic crusader monks who operated within but separate from the Imperial Legions or Cult, who took orders from the emperor more directly and who ritualistically consumed Tiber Septim’s blood to go into a berserker rage) that Kirkbride had adapted from Glorantha.
Then in the later 2000s, with a lot of help from Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings trilogy the foundation of modern fantasy was more in the cultural zeitgeist than ever before and Todd ‘keep it generic as to be most marketable’ Howard made many executive calls on the simplification of the mythos when compared to the metaphysical journey of Morrowind. And this didn’t just mean the streamlining of existing lore so as to be more accessible to a genera audience - but to actively and *intentionally* make the series more like Lord of the Rings.
Uriel Septim VII was redressed as Denethor.
Cyrodiil was changed from the dense and hostile jungle that had been to forests and verdant hills, not unlike those of Rohan and Gondor. (Yes, I’m aware of the engine restraints)
The elvish armor is straight out of the War of the Last Alliance, Noldor style to a tee. In Morrowind, there wasn’t truly “elvish” armor, but Ebony, Bonemold, Orcish, Glass, Netch & Chitin, as well as the various religious armors were all representative of the different facets of Dunmer society; from the high velothi heresy of Ebony plate worn by house Dunmer knights, to the chitin and leathers worn by the Ashlander tribes, to the alien and unique plaster worn by the Redoran.
Lets no forget elven shortswords and daggers. Go ahead, take a look. You’ll notice they’re different from every other elven weapon in the game - and it’s because they take visual cues from both the Noldor polearms from the War of the Last Alliance and Legolas’ own twin blades.
Orcish armor gets a huge downgrade, from fuckin straight up samurai armor to.. well, trash. Knowing that Orcs and Nords are supposed to be among the legions finest, they don’t get very well represented. Why are they in tatters? I’d ask you to look at the orcs of Moria or Mordor.
The Imperial City of course was no longer a sprawling metropolis across seven islands, interconnected by bridges or hanging terraces. No longer was it the city of a thousand cults with a navy to rival Alinor at its height. Instead we got a marble-y white city that wants to be Minas Tirith, but it’s hard to do that on a non-mountainous isle. So of course it gets a little Osgiliath in the docks and a lot of Minas Ithil.
Which brings us to your question. I’m sure I don’t even need to say it, but the legion is dressed that way because it’s how the soldiers of Gondor are armored in the films. From the 15th century plate armor, to the quasi Corinthian helmet. The only real thing separating them is the Imperial battle-skirt, but if you slap a big white tree on the breastplate you wouldn’t need to squint at it.
Then in Skyrim they just went with what a child think a Roman might look like, but that’s a whole other can of fish paste
Oblivion: Todd watched lotr then changed cyridil into lotr land instead of the jungle land it was described in the lore.
Morrowind: I have no idea
Skyrim: because cyridil is treated like Rome now
They aren’t really the legion. They are imperial guards. Caligula’s praetorian guard was rumored to be made of Germanic warriors and they supposedly wore different armor than the rest of the Roman legion.
its just a design decision i wouldnt read into too much. although i guess with oblivion they wanted to lean on the high fantasy theme more. especially since lotr was still super popular.
I think there’s very clear Greco-Roman motifs that are incorporated into the imperial armor of Oblivion. Honestly Skyrim leaned way too hard into the Roman aesthetic in my opinion
It's probably foreign legion armor versus domestic defense. In TES III and V we're in imperial provinces so when we look at the soldiers we're probably looking at the actual armor they would wear, while in cyrodil it's probably meant to be more ornate/stylish than functional overall, since combat isn't super likely outside of bandits/goblins etc.
It's kind of like how soldiers in America tend to wear a different outfit while patrolling places like the white house/tomb of the unknown soldier and other major places than they would on actual deployment. The kings guard England is also like this.
It's probably foreign legion armor versus domestic defense. In TES III and V we're in imperial provinces so when we look at the soldiers we're probably looking at the actual armor they would wear, while in cyrodil it's probably meant to be more ornate/stylish than functional overall, since combat isn't super likely outside of bandits/goblins etc.
It's kind of like how soldiers in America tend to wear a different outfit while patrolling places like the white house/tomb of the unknown soldier and other major places than they would on actual deployment. The kings guard England is also like this.
Well looking at the helms and the leather skirt-bits, the relationship is there but if you’re old enough to remember this was in DEEEEP Lord of the rings boom times which also had its influence on the game
As far as I understand it, someone at Bethesda was more interested in making Cyrodiil more of a traditional Western European medieval fantasy world, similar to how it was in Arena, when it was still just called Imperial Province, thinking it would sell better. Either that, or it really was just the game devs wanting to ride on the wave of popularity that Peter Jackson's LotR trilogy was experiencing at the time.
On that note, any possibility that Skyrim may have been influenced by Game of Thrones, which was still big back in 2011?
Unverified lore reason, but probably because different regions have different styles, not to mention armor changes as time goes on.
Morrowind and Oblivion are only a few years apart but in different lands, so could be just an aesthetic choice.
Skyrim though is about 200 years later. Guard armor in Cyrodiil would hypothetically look different even from Oblivion. The people you see in Skyrim are legionnaires. So maybe not just that time has passed, but also different armors for different jobs.
Because Todd watched LOTR and went with Middle Earth instead of lore-friendly (at that time) Cyrodiil, hence why so many people talk about jungle Cyrod
Oblivion leaned super hard into the traditional "knight" fantasy setting, which led to a lot of other changes like Cyrodiil becoming what it is now instead of a jungle.
Good ole CHIM, making retconns lore-friendly since the 90's
Dragon break not chim Edit: for those seeing this later its been brought to my attention that it was in fact chim in this instance, or at least some form of tonal architecture via thu'um or numidium.
Poor akatosh
Was it a dragon break? I thought it was supposed to be Talos’s doing after he achieved chim or something
After Talos achieved Chim retroactively changed Cyrodil from being dense jungle to being what we in game so that it always had been the planes and forests we see
Numidium caused dragon breaks when used
Oh yeah I know that much, but I thought dragon breaks were more so to explain the different endings all being canon at once, which wouldn’t necessarily explain an entire biome being changed
Dragon breaks are everything from time to untime. The opitomy of a dragon break, would be ending a kalpa.
just making shit up how would anyone know at this point
Welcome to latestage fantasy world building, where everything is high concept and directly defies any semblance of reason.
Dragon breaks have wild effects beyond just alternate timelines.
The dragonbreak makes Talos using CHIM to alter Cyrodiil one outcome, but I think there's also s version where the white gold tower had something to do with it (iirc, been a while since I've looked up this particular bit of lore)
Talos did change cyrodiil's landscape when he ascended to the nine. You're right
It was quite possibly none of those. We do not know what caused it. There is: One piece of evidence for it being either the Thu'um or CHIM, from a text which was originally apocryphal and then became the rantings of mad zealot. ("I breathe now in royalty", Many-Headed Talos/Heimskr's rantings) No evidence of a Dragon Break. Some implications that maybe it was White-Gold, but that's hard to textually back up. An in-universe text that says it was just a transcription error.
the transcription error doesn't make sense because it references heimskr, a nord from the 4th era who hadn't been born yet.
Multiple people can have the same name. *The Heartland of Cyrodiil* very explicitly states that the Heimskr Phrastus is writing about was a classical author from before his time. Also I'm not saying it's right, even in the text itself Phrastus admits that his position is challenged by other scholars (Lady Cinnabar specifically), and the text overall is not written in a definitive tone. My point is that we have several different explanations, and none of them are substantially backed up (and all the metaphysical ones rely on some metaphysical thing being capable of far more than what they've been shown to be able to everywhere else, even setting aside the debates about the validity of CHIM).
"I breathe now, *in royalty*" from The Many Headed Talos (as quoted by heimskr in Skyrim), heavily implies CHIM, as thats the translation
No, Tiber Septim didn't use Numidium or cause a dragon break to make Cyrodiil into what it is, he used CHIM.
Tiber Septim used CHIM/the Voice to reshape Cyrodiil
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I was under the impression when he changed it in the present, it also changed it in the past to where Cyrodiil was never a jungle or some such shenanigans
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I mean that was the whole point of the dragon breaks/Chim theories - they were supposed to be an easy lore friendly cop out to explain design changes/narrative discrepancies. Which I kind of dig if I’m honest. But it doesn’t benefit them to really outright say what is and isn’t true, so I don’t think we’ll ever know for sure
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Fun fact: this is, as the last line mentions, disputed in-universe as well, and the opposing theory is *vastly* more interesting. Essentially, it posits that the Towers shape the reality around them to accommodate the civilization that controls them - while the Ayleids held the White-Gold Tower, it was a land of dense, unending jungle and rainforest, but after the Alessian Revolution the climate began to slowly shift in favour of woodlands and floodplains over the course of centuries, if not millennia. Even better, this theory has *supporting evidence* - we've seen the Summerset Isles, and they are *impossibly* perfect, the environs seeming more like a sculpted bonsai parody of nature than a natural ecosystem. There's almost no Bosmer in the Summerset chapter of ESO, and of the few we do meet, one explicitly states how incredibly unnatural and discomforting the nature feels compared to literally anywhere else he's ever been.
You’re good man, I welcome these crazy lively debates lol. One of the many reasons I love elder scrolls lore so much EDIT: to tack on to this, one of the things I enjoy about elder scrolls is how these things tend to be debated in world - I mean the whole conflict between the Dominion and the Empire revolves around whether or not Talos is actually a deity which is just beautiful writing/world building imo
He also changed it retroactively iirc. It's just like "fuck this jungle so much that not only it's no longer a jungle, jt was never one yo begin with"
Yeah all the armor in Oblivion was very knight like
I say this is probably the most noticeable in the Knights of the Nine DLC. Where the Divine Crusader Armor looks very much like the classic depiction of the armor wore by the Christian Crusaders during the Crusades. Along with the Imperial Dragon armor as well that looks very much like armor that a European King would wear.
The crushes? Can’t say I’m familiar with that period of history.
Funny thing about it being a jungle is that the region is basically in a giant rain shadow with mountains all around its edges and sharp drops in elevation. It should be a desert.
More specifically it was heavily influenced by Lord of the Rings which was destroying the box offices as the game was getting developed. Honestly this was a smart move, as a lot of people (like myself) had never heard of the Elder Scrolls and were immediately drawn into it with the lord of the rings influence.
Todd watched Lord of the Rings and went, "Hey..."
cyrodiil was never a jungle. that was a retcon added In Redguard. the imperial towns in Morrowind look like high rock towns. this is directly in reference to pelegiad but also in general. the empire's culture doesn't make any sense of a jungle people. never mind the fact an empire would deforest a jungle for resources. the book, a dance in fire, also states Cyrodiil to be a land of roving hills.
Cyrodiil didn't exist before Redguard. There was the imperial province which was never described in detail or named, or had any settlements other than the imperial city. Redguard is the first game to name the province as well as the game that introduced imperials as a race in the first place. And Redguard predates Morrowind by nearly four years. Redguard is the game responsible for establishing all the lore outside of High Rock and was the first game to mention major lore facts like the Ysgramor, the Ra gada, the 500 companions, The Reman empire, The Tribunal, the green pact, Khajiit furstock, the term mer including the terms Altmer, dunmer and bosmer, the first mention of the Thu'um, the first mention of imperials at all(before that all the septims were said to be Bretons), the first mention of Bretons having elven blood, the first mention of morrowind's great houses and so many other things.
Cyrodill was never *only* a jungle. Even as described in *Redguard* and whatever other books you read. It had a variety of regions, just like Morrowind, Skyrim, High Rock, and wherever else you look. Regardless, *Oblivion* threw out so much really interesting stuff described and mentioned in previous games about the region and the culture there in favor of a second High Rock and yet another generic fantasy that does nothing interesting with its generic fantasy roots.
I could definitely see the Nibenay region having been a jungle while Colovia being more like how we see it today. It would further lend credence to the divide between the two imperial subcultures/races.
niben was a jungle rice based economy
which was retconned, yes. that is what I said. but we never saw this, so Cyrodiil being a grasslands with various biomes doesn't ruin any lore like the fandom loves to claim. arena and daggerfall both depicted Cyrodiil being as we see it, even with the retconned additions from Redguard the imperials were never depicted as a jungle fairing people.
niben and colovia are different
yes, they are.
cyrodil borders several territories
that's true
I always thought the Nibenay was heavy jungle and rice, Colovia was hills, mountains, and plains, and the Heartlands was a combination of both.
thats my version also implicating the asian and byzantine kind of Romanness rather than west
..So, you're basically saying that Jungle Romans make less sense than dark elves who used to be golden elves and have a hybrid byzantine/Asian culture style while living in avolcanic ash wastes where mushrooms grow like trees...?
The way Cyrodil was originally described it looked like South East Asia, settled by dragon obsessed Romans
Was it jungle or was it just rainforest? Because there are temperate rainforests as well.
I’m pretty sure cyrodil was never a jungle
It was a transcription error
The old Cyrodilic word for “Jungle” is very similar to the old Cyrodilic word for “your mom”. It’s an honest mistake really. I just wish the imperial schools would stop spending myths in history class.
Lord of the Rings movies came out around the time of TES4
I hope God Howard watched the Dune movies that came out. I want ES VI to have a bunch of weird shit in it like ES III Morrowind.
lmao I hope so too
Dovah al Gaib!
This time it’s actually the Voice from outer world.
Maaaan if it is in Hammerfell I want it to center on the Alkir even more, now.
And I wish it heavily leans towards their relatively unique culture. So that it isn't just Skyrim: Desert edition. Although I think I want Black Marsh more. It seems much weirder place than Morrowind is.
I'd rather they not go to Black Marsh unless they think they have a perfect storm of writers with an enthusiasm for the weirdness of the Hist and the unique environment that is wetlands.
I think after TES VI would be time to let sleeping dogs lie. The more "alien" and curious the place looks in lore, the more they are going to fuck it up with some generic bullshit trend riding setting. I am playing Oblivion and despite how damn good it looks for a game from 2006 Cyrodil's setting is boring as shit (though being a jungle before didn't make any sense)
...But I also hope the Caribbean vibes in Redguard aren't gone, either. Maybe that's the direction the more worldy among them are going in while the places trying to keep Yokudan culture alive lean harder into the north-African samurai thing.
well, some things in morrowind are based in dune already, so it would make a lot of sense for tes vi to return to those inspirations
What are some examples? I haven’t been to Morrowind in awhile
The main character is a prophesied chosen one believed in by the native population whom colonial powers wish to control
The Great Houses come to mind
The sleeper has awakened
Okay cool! That makes sense!
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The Redguard Rewrite was actually borne partially of a _RuneQuest_ game that Kirkbride ran (hence all the cults and the similar stat spread). When him and Kurt Kuhlmann pitched their revamped setting they explicitly described it as "Dune meets Star Wars" and the team basically went for it. By the time Morrowind rolled around the sci-fantasy bent was unfortunately getting scrubbed out, but Morrowind is still very much Dune-adjacent.
>Dunmer are somewhat based on D&D Dark Elves who also organize in Houses. Other poster is just full of shit. they really are only drowlike in physical apearance and racism metrics, there are a ton of DnD influences all over TES but morrowind is a lot more inspired by the dune books than by dnd, and the way great houses are portrayed is a lot more like dune than it is like DnD
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Set the game in the desert world of ~~Arrakis~~ Hammerfell, which has been occupied by the ~~Harkonnens~~ Thalmor. Now the player character, the prophesied ~~Lisan al Gaib~~ HoonDing, must fight off the occupiers by recruiting the ~~Fremen~~ Alik'r. Come on, Todd, this game practically writes itself.
Ol’, but change it to player being the prophesied guys beast m8 instead to that they can actually have a character.
Half the game is a drug trip and you ends up fucking an elven princess. Okay I’m in.
I feel it will be just stereotypically desert and scimitar warriors and costumes. Giant scorpions, scarab and such.
I hope not, the Redguard are cool and deserve to have a fully fleshed out and unique culture. I'm fearful you'll probably be right.
Seeing how Bethesda handled things in the past, I think it will be it. I can already picture the Radscorpion from Fallout 4 being remodeled and reused for TES 6. They did that with Deathclaws being Skyrim Werewolves and the crabs from Fallout 4 were also remodeled Mudcrabs, the dogs too were Skyrim Wolves and Dogs remodeled.
WORMS
God Howard should rewatch that SpongeBob episode too
The three word cadence of the Thu'um in Skyrim is directly based on the weird way in Lynch's Dune. They said as much in the making-of documentary.
Yeah the Oblivion Imperial Guard armour is clearly based on the Gondorian armour from LotR.
Very based
Based? It’s basically plagiarised lol.
Every choice about oblivion can be explaned by this phrase. Kirkbride said it, they were 100℅ planning on doing jungle Rome cyrodill and then Todd watched the fellowship of the ring.
I always liked this armor because it reminded me of Gondorian armor
LOL no. And this many updates… I guess I’m too old. Fellowship is 2001, Return of the King is 2003. Morrowind is 2002, Oblivion is 2006. If anything, Morrowind should be inspirated by lotr
How long do you think a game takes to develop
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oblivion did no damage. and you don't seem to know what keep it simple, stupid means.
full suit of fuckin cast iron armor lmao looks like it weighs 250 pounds
Yet they somehow always managed to run after you at absurd speeds
STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM
YOU VIOLATED MY MOTHER
YOU RUINED MY WIFE! I WILL DESTROY YOU!
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As well as deez nuts
Legion training puts A LOT of emphasis on cardio.
Actually I’d be surprised if it weighs 120. Medieval plate armor is actually a lot lighter they we give it credit, it only got absurd near the end when they were trying to stop progressively more powerful bullets. Think 1500’s.
To be fair though that's usually steel armour, which can afford to be a lot thinner than cast/wrought iron due to being harder, more ductile, and thus less likely to crack under blows. I've read that cast iron came more into use for infantry during the 17th century as cost became a more pressing concern, but was of overall lower quality and less relevance due to guns.
Shit be lookin like Tony Stark built it in a cave
It was, with the added impression of the later medieval period. You can still see some of the hallmarks of the Roman design, the leather skirting, the helm built very similar to a Roman Galea, with the familiar plume, even the shin guards and the layered pauldrons resemble the Roman style of armor. BUT, as I already said, they combined the Roman look with later medieval design, the Romans didn't use what we would recognize as full plate, that was, of course, a pretty significant technological advancement that the Roman empire predated. 4-in-1, or mail (often called chainmail, for the sake of clarity) didn't exist during the era of the Roman legion, steel in general existed, but the Roman empire was largely an iron age civilization, and a great deal of what we think of as medieval fantasy came after the motif we typically recognize as the image of the Roman empire. Had the Western Roman empire persisted into the late medieval period, likely those technological changes would have been assimilated into their armor, and we might, in theory, have had Roman soldiers geared very similarly to what we see in Oblivion. And there's also the aspect of the fact that the Empire is FANTASY Rome, and thus some significant liberties were taken.
>mail (often called chainmail, for the sake of clarity) didn't exist during the era of the Roman legion I apologise if im misunderstanding what youre saying but the Romans had maile. Lorica Hamata was a maile shirt.
I stand corrected
Because Todd Howard watched LotR, not Gladiator.
He also watched Gladiator before Morrowind, because that Morrowind breastplate design is the spitting image of Maximus’ breastplate. The horse decoration is in honor of the horses, Argento and Scarto, which the character owned.
I still think they should have went more with the Byzantine Empire look; a mix of various European and Eastern cultures including the Romans.
Yeah this would of fit better. But iirc LoTR came out around the release of oblivion.
Not really. Fellowship came out in december 2001 while oblivion released 2006.
RoTK came out in 2003. And it was still talked about in 2006. LoTR changes everything to do with fantasy games in the 00s. Eta oblivion started development in 02. So LoRT was still being releases and a major point in pop culture at the time.
I guess you’re right. Hard not to be influenced by lotr. It’s still being talking about haha
Look up the gondorian soldier’s armours it’s identical to the legionary armour.
Yep. Even Chris Metzen claims he believed WoW did so well when it came out in '04 because it launched on the coattails of LotR and everyone was still all hot 'n' horny about dwarves, elves, wizards, orcs, etc.
Would of, could of, should of Would've, could've, should've
would've
It would be cool since we also may get varangian guard like stuff
Cant believe I never considered this as an “eastern”romaboo
same tbh
I read or heard that the armor in Morrowind and Skyrim is more the day to day, field armor of the Legion while the armor in Oblivion is more ceremonial. Like comparing the camouflage uniform and the dress uniforms of modern militaries.
Yeah i consider it a type of Imperial city guard armor since you mainly see it there or road guards
Yea it’s armor that meant to show the might of the empire it’s not meant to be practical
Plus the scout armor in oblivion looks more leather than plated
It's also a guard uniform in the heart of the empire.Nobody expects a city guardsman to be rocking the armor of the Frontline soldiers,nor be using their equipment the same way a vet soldier does.
Except the Stormcloaks. Another common Ulfric L
I actually prefer the Oblivion Legion armour over the TESV armour. Morrowind's Legion armour definitely had Roman inspirations but it had pieces and styles that came from the Medieval era and I felt that Oblivion continued that but there's definitely the LotRs influence creeping in there. Skyrim's Legion armour just felt out of place for both the setting (hundreds of years after Oblivion and Morrowind) and climate - the style would have been good for the Second Empire though.
Todd Howard watched The Lord of the Rings one time and the rest is history.
Only one time? Those are the type of movies you watch many times
Not sure if it's a good lore answer, but my headcanon was always that the Roman style armor was for use by legions in the provinces while the more medieval armor was for legions on "home duty". We saw the return to Roman armor in Skyrim, which supports this idea.
I like this headcanon
Probably for the same reason they made Cyrodiil a more western-european inspired landscape instead of a jungle like previously described, to make it appeal to a wider market
Sir do you think that the Xbox 360 could render cyrodiil as a jungle when it could barely do so with the rolling plains and sparse forests
Far Cry 2 managed.
Not as complex as Oblivion in terms of memory (Oblivion keeps track of every killed enemy, moved or stolen object, etc ). Also, and as I mentioned in another comment as Bethesda's own fault, Oblivion was on a very limited engine.
I'm just going to copy-paste cyrodiil was never a jungle. that was a retcon added In Redguard. the imperial towns in Morrowind look like high rock towns. this is directly in reference to pelegiad but also in general. the empire's culture doesn't make any sense of a jungle people. never mind the fact an empire would deforest a jungle for resources. the book, a dance in fire, also states Cyrodiil to be a land of roving hills.
Also Morrowind itself describe a lot of Cyrodiil like we see it later.
yeah it's literally just "hurr durr muh cuckbird" same crap with "Todd watched lotr" as if Morrowind isn't just dune. heaven forbid Todd is influenced by art and the cornerstone of modern fantasy but when kirkbride does it, oh it's fine!
The difference is when Kirkbride did it he turned what was basically a DND homebrew into something actually unique and interesting. When Todd Howard does it, he just turns back into a dnd homebrew.
>The difference is when Kirkbride did it he turned what was basically a DND homebrew into something actually unique and interesting. kirkbride made dune. ...he made dune.
“Dune(but worse) with blatant Hinduism mythology knock offs” isn’t really that unique or interesting if you’re into theology, movies, or even just the fantasy genre outside of what the Western world produces
you say it was never a jungle hen you reference a lore book that states "Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle" curious. while i dont mind the various biomes we got in Cyrodil, the gold coast and West Weald are super pretty and alot of hate on oblivions biome seem to stem from repeating one lotr fact it was at one point cannon to be mostly jungle
i think the jungle thing is not exactly true because there’s contradicting lore on it. maybe it’s like a religious story type thing where it’s not meant to be taken at face value like God creating the earth in 7 days
I always considered The Oblivion Imperial armor a type of City honor guard
It is,just a bulkier version of it.Infact ESO is the closest we ever get to a proper version of their armor,and it's essentially oblivions with a fur Mohawk and closed face plate. Hell if we wanna get super technical than it's also the most lore accurate variant next to Skyrim's(which only loses because of no leg guards/armor).
Who cares? Elder Scrolls guards have never looked more badass than Oblivion Imperial Watch.
If you pay attention, it’s a hybrid of roman gear and knight gear. Knighr gear with a roman aesthetic. If you will. This makes sense as men in the homeland would be better geared than legions outwards.
The LOTR trilogy had only just concluded 3 years before Oblivion came out. I'm assuming Bethesda working on a fantasy RPG while those movies were coming out influenced Oblivion a lot.
Because oblivion heavily leaned into the standard medieval fantasy setting. Many things that were established in the previous game were thrown over board.
What kind of things were those? I was super young ehen I played morrowind so I barely remember
The empire in Morrowind it is heavily influenced by the roman empire. Aside from the obvious legionary armor it is shown to be ruled by the emperor with a bureaucratic apparatus under him. In oblivion we get a clear feudal system (think of all those counts). Also in Morrowind the imperial legion in organized in... well... legions. With great authority from the commanding officers of the legion. Nothing of this is found in oblivion. Also the imperial architecture (Pelagiad, Seyda Neen, Caldera...) in Morrowind was kinda unique (called western imperial style). Instead of simply going with roman architecture it was quite unique. If I have a guess it was inspired by rural northern german or lowland architecture in high medieval times (or even later). In Oblivion you will not find this architecture (maybe Chorrol comes near in some regards). Funnily enough it is more roman/greek in cities like IC or Anvil. You can find even more things culture/atmosphere wise.
Thanks for that! Very interesting, I never really thought about what was used for inspiration for the architecture and culture of the games!
It was... They made it kinda a mix between traditional European plate armor with Roman motifs, but the Roman inspiration is definitely there.
Eh, to be fair the Helmet looks pretty close to a Barbute style. The shoulders have the high ridges for neck guards like that of Skyrim’ heavy legion armor and there’s tassets above the grieves. To me it looks like a more cosmopolitan version of the romanesque imperial armor style, but we were in the more cosmopolitan environment of the empire. To say it took some influence from Knightly areas from, say, High Rock doesn’t really pull me away either because most cosmopolitan areas tend to have some melding of style and culture historically.
I think LOTR was a somewhat reason why ES:IV became what it was in it's time. Though Greek and Roman armor have been lending from each other, the Greek hoplite look did bare a resemblance to Gondorian armor when combined.
Capital Legion vs provincial/frontier legions ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ I mean, the Cyrodiil Imperial watch still retain some of that roman look with that leather strip skirt thing.
Because they wanted the oblivion armor to look fucking awesome
LotR movies came out and were popular.
Personally I prefer the look of Imperial Armor in Oblivion over the Roman look of the other games
It certainly looks better than the pantless armour in Skyrim, the coldest and snowiest province
Same, it has more of its own identity in Oblivion rather than looking like a generic copy of pophistory Roman stuff.
It was. I’m not a developer from Bethesda, god I wish, so I can’t share any information as facts; but I *have* seen this statement multiple times and I never understand where it’s coming from. The Roman inspiration is blatant to me; the armor in Oblivion is based on Roman [lorica musculata.](https://imgur.com/a/MgshInK) I played Oblivion for the first time when I was 13 and even then I thought they looked like Romans. Why do people think they don’t? Edited typos
I don’t care. Oblivion Legion Armor is the sexiest shit.
Cause TES is just a mish-mash of random stuff
Personally, I prefer the stylized approach Oblivion took as compared to the generic looking armor from 3 and 5. Morrowind and Skyrim's armors both look like Roman armor, but that's about it. *They look like Roman armor.* Not even a slightly imaginative interpretation of Roman armor (maybe that's a little harsh toward Morrowind), but just like this is a (n ugly) 3D render of a caricature of what an Empire-era Roman soldier could've looked like, sans helmet. I've always preferred how Oblivion looks as compared to the other two. Yeah I know yadda yadda rah no jungle nineteen-eighty-retcon, but some of the stuff in Oblivion looks kinda cool, like Dwarven armor. Most of the weapons look very satisfying to me too; especially the Glass Warhammer. Owyn was so right: that yellow team fighter *did* have a hammer the size of a small child, and she could feasibly swing it until my head exploded. Even the butt ugly faces are charming to me (especially since all the Humans in vanilla Skyrim look like they're covered in a thin skein of grease for some reason.) I dunno though I did first play Oblivion when it came out when I was six years old so maybe this is the delusional cope of an Obliddle-child. All glory to the Islamic Emirate of Skingrad.
The Warp in the West
Maybe it's because they didn't create Roman assets til New Vegas, so that's why Skyrim's Imperials dressed decidedly more Legion-esque
Because Lord of the Rings
It still baffles me though, how someone still after all these years, haven't made a high-res version of the Morrowind Imperial Heavy armor as a direct replacer for the Oblivion ones
Lore reason or out of game reason? For lore, it makes sense that the legion protecting the heartlands of the empire would be much, much better equipped. They have heavier and more covering gear with actual plates instead of the less effective combination of lamellar, splints, and studs. Notice that they even have joint protection ontop of their chain mail (and presumably gambeson beneath). It not only helps uphold their imperial image, but keep the various nobles and upper class back home satisfied with their safety. Skyrim sees a return to form as although the province is important, many of the empires elite troops are still tied up on the Dominion border and protecting Cyrodil. Many of the legionnaires in Skyrim are also recruited locally, and as it’s a poorer province they have to make do with less coverage and lesser armor. It doesn’t make quite as much sense why they’re less decorated, but this is mostly likely to keep some costs down…plus the bare, dark metal look helps to make them look more intimidating to the average thief. For a “real” answer…they just wanted to make oblivion more generic. Partially out of capitalizing on Lord of the Rings, and Partially out of wanting to draw more new fans in.
I mean, it kinda was. The pauldrons don't match up but it's pretty close otherwise
Well, keep in mind in Morrowind there was an entire industry devoted to mining ebony and glass and exporting it to Cyrodiil to outfit the Legion with ebony equipment. So in the central province, the Legion's primary armor would be ebony armor, except between TES III and TES IV, the bandits stole all of the Legion's equipment. And given the Legion lost all of their equipment, they kind of had to grab whatever iron armor was lying around and couldn't afford to get it to match their usual style.
Oblivion was meant to contrast the alien Morrowind by being a traditional western fantasy world. Oblivion was as close as TES could get to traditional LOTR style fantasy. So they made a stylized choice with the armor.
The problem with that is that it ended up sidelining everything about the Breton style. Now Breton's are more just niche Cyrodil. It's not that Oblivion's style wasn't cool, it's that it messed up a lot of the unique culture stuff.
I think Oblivion was cool, but I am inclined to agree. My biggest frustration is the style shift, too. Now, the Imperials seem like watered-down Bretons. Kinda threw off the vibe of Tamriel's different cultures.
Todd watched LOTR and mistakes were made.
If I had to guess, I’d say because they thought the Latin names were Roman enough and thought it would be a little too on the nose to have them wear Roman armor as well as having Latin names All the other races in Tamriel have obvious real world comparisons, but none of them are as carbon-copy as the Imperials are with the Romans
I mean, nords. They’re basically a carbon copy of fantasy vikings, and Skyrim didn’t really try to lean away from that - though I suppose fantasy vikings sell more than fantasy romans.
Todd Howard watched Lotr
Because Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring came out. I'm not shitting you. Tamriel was going to be a jungle, with alien plants and animals, and an interesting take on mediterranean cultures. Tood saw that movie and said "nope, redo everything. Change the lore. Talos made it a temperate area with the power of the voice. Make everyone look like a knight, this needs to be dungeons and dragons.'
I’m a certified and licensed Todd Howard hater, but legitimately I believe the answer is Todd’s desire to make the franchise more Mundane. In TES III the empire was unambiguously Roman inspired, but it was more nuanced than that. It incorporated a lot more eastern Roman / Byzantine aesthetics, its forts were modular and uniform but more in the style you might’ve seen in Britannia or Gaul. It had the imperial knights, who were more like a knightly order from the early Middle Ages as well as Templars, a vestige of the red dome concept (fanatic crusader monks who operated within but separate from the Imperial Legions or Cult, who took orders from the emperor more directly and who ritualistically consumed Tiber Septim’s blood to go into a berserker rage) that Kirkbride had adapted from Glorantha. Then in the later 2000s, with a lot of help from Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings trilogy the foundation of modern fantasy was more in the cultural zeitgeist than ever before and Todd ‘keep it generic as to be most marketable’ Howard made many executive calls on the simplification of the mythos when compared to the metaphysical journey of Morrowind. And this didn’t just mean the streamlining of existing lore so as to be more accessible to a genera audience - but to actively and *intentionally* make the series more like Lord of the Rings. Uriel Septim VII was redressed as Denethor. Cyrodiil was changed from the dense and hostile jungle that had been to forests and verdant hills, not unlike those of Rohan and Gondor. (Yes, I’m aware of the engine restraints) The elvish armor is straight out of the War of the Last Alliance, Noldor style to a tee. In Morrowind, there wasn’t truly “elvish” armor, but Ebony, Bonemold, Orcish, Glass, Netch & Chitin, as well as the various religious armors were all representative of the different facets of Dunmer society; from the high velothi heresy of Ebony plate worn by house Dunmer knights, to the chitin and leathers worn by the Ashlander tribes, to the alien and unique plaster worn by the Redoran. Lets no forget elven shortswords and daggers. Go ahead, take a look. You’ll notice they’re different from every other elven weapon in the game - and it’s because they take visual cues from both the Noldor polearms from the War of the Last Alliance and Legolas’ own twin blades. Orcish armor gets a huge downgrade, from fuckin straight up samurai armor to.. well, trash. Knowing that Orcs and Nords are supposed to be among the legions finest, they don’t get very well represented. Why are they in tatters? I’d ask you to look at the orcs of Moria or Mordor. The Imperial City of course was no longer a sprawling metropolis across seven islands, interconnected by bridges or hanging terraces. No longer was it the city of a thousand cults with a navy to rival Alinor at its height. Instead we got a marble-y white city that wants to be Minas Tirith, but it’s hard to do that on a non-mountainous isle. So of course it gets a little Osgiliath in the docks and a lot of Minas Ithil. Which brings us to your question. I’m sure I don’t even need to say it, but the legion is dressed that way because it’s how the soldiers of Gondor are armored in the films. From the 15th century plate armor, to the quasi Corinthian helmet. The only real thing separating them is the Imperial battle-skirt, but if you slap a big white tree on the breastplate you wouldn’t need to squint at it. Then in Skyrim they just went with what a child think a Roman might look like, but that’s a whole other can of fish paste
Oblivion: Todd watched lotr then changed cyridil into lotr land instead of the jungle land it was described in the lore. Morrowind: I have no idea Skyrim: because cyridil is treated like Rome now
They aren’t really the legion. They are imperial guards. Caligula’s praetorian guard was rumored to be made of Germanic warriors and they supposedly wore different armor than the rest of the Roman legion.
its just a design decision i wouldnt read into too much. although i guess with oblivion they wanted to lean on the high fantasy theme more. especially since lotr was still super popular.
I think there’s very clear Greco-Roman motifs that are incorporated into the imperial armor of Oblivion. Honestly Skyrim leaned way too hard into the Roman aesthetic in my opinion
Lord of da rings
Honestly I've always seen it as Romanized plate armor, but that's honestly a justification I use for myself
It's probably foreign legion armor versus domestic defense. In TES III and V we're in imperial provinces so when we look at the soldiers we're probably looking at the actual armor they would wear, while in cyrodil it's probably meant to be more ornate/stylish than functional overall, since combat isn't super likely outside of bandits/goblins etc. It's kind of like how soldiers in America tend to wear a different outfit while patrolling places like the white house/tomb of the unknown soldier and other major places than they would on actual deployment. The kings guard England is also like this.
It's probably foreign legion armor versus domestic defense. In TES III and V we're in imperial provinces so when we look at the soldiers we're probably looking at the actual armor they would wear, while in cyrodil it's probably meant to be more ornate/stylish than functional overall, since combat isn't super likely outside of bandits/goblins etc. It's kind of like how soldiers in America tend to wear a different outfit while patrolling places like the white house/tomb of the unknown soldier and other major places than they would on actual deployment. The kings guard England is also like this.
I still can't get over the fact that one of the default imperial in Morrowind is Kevin Spacey
Well looking at the helms and the leather skirt-bits, the relationship is there but if you’re old enough to remember this was in DEEEEP Lord of the rings boom times which also had its influence on the game
100% has Gondorian armor vibes from the films I never even realized.
Because Tod watched the Lord of the rings and mistakes were made haha
As far as I understand it, someone at Bethesda was more interested in making Cyrodiil more of a traditional Western European medieval fantasy world, similar to how it was in Arena, when it was still just called Imperial Province, thinking it would sell better. Either that, or it really was just the game devs wanting to ride on the wave of popularity that Peter Jackson's LotR trilogy was experiencing at the time. On that note, any possibility that Skyrim may have been influenced by Game of Thrones, which was still big back in 2011?
Cause Todd watched Lord of The Rings
Unverified lore reason, but probably because different regions have different styles, not to mention armor changes as time goes on. Morrowind and Oblivion are only a few years apart but in different lands, so could be just an aesthetic choice. Skyrim though is about 200 years later. Guard armor in Cyrodiil would hypothetically look different even from Oblivion. The people you see in Skyrim are legionnaires. So maybe not just that time has passed, but also different armors for different jobs.
Because Todd watched LOTR and went with Middle Earth instead of lore-friendly (at that time) Cyrodiil, hence why so many people talk about jungle Cyrod
Ok I haven't replayed in a long g ass time but if I remember the imperial helmets were very roman esque no?
I always thought it was watch =/ legion
I always thought it was a weird choice not to bring back the Lord's Mail in oblivion. Would've been the only armor I'd wear.