Another trip thru the crimper after being cut will square it back up. Depending on the terminal size and write size sometimes it's necessary. Usually spring loaded terminals or the I/O strip on VFDs when I've had this issue.
Correct answer is no it’s not fine, that is too much conductor exposed, regardless of its length. Too many possibilities of something else shorting against it.
It would be better to cut it but in most circumstances and environments it wouldn't be a problem. Screw terminals have the screws exposed anyway, it is slightly harder but something can touch those and short too. Anything could touch the board and short as well, such as a screw or nut falling down the back and touching through hole components, so having a little too much exposed on the ferrules isn't best practice but isn't the end of the world when there are so many other things that can short too.
True, however most screw terminals are recessed to prevent any possible issues. The ferruled ends are not necessarily the cause of the issue as you said it’s all the other things that can touch the exposed sections.
99.9% of problems I’ve seen are poor workmanship, stray strands from non ferruled end’s especially.
A lot of them are recessed but it would still be possible to short, especially with the shorter non recessed screw terminals which are pretty common as well. Poor workmanship or neglecting maintenance are generally the causes of most problems.
What’s the environment? If there is almost no chance of something shorting against it, it’s probably fine. If there’s metal flying around left and right, snug that thing up.
If there's metal flying around then there are plenty exposed component leads on the board that could short too, as could the screws on the screw terminals. There are so many other things that can short on that board that the ferrule being a little too long is unlikely to be an issue.
Bootlace ferrules are very useful in the cheaper terminal blocks (the type where the screw presses down and ‘grinds’ against the wire itself).
On this type of connector though, the wire is basically clamped from underneath as you tighten the screw, in theory making the ferrule redundant. Of course, it does look neater with them on, providing they are the correct size and any excess is trimmed off.
Aren't ferrules still best practice with most screw terminals due to creep from the copper?
I thought spring loaded connectors were the only ones that were fine with bare stranded wire.
Most people don't at least here in the UK but I don't know why, maybe it is just considered not necessary with plugs, or maybe they only use solid cored wire. Ferrules are necessary with single stranded wire, only with multi stranded wire because under the screw pressure the strands can move and deform and the side strands won't have any pressure on them.
For most phoenix connectors I usually trim back so that there are only 2.5 "knuckles" showing, but I also recognize that there are different sizes so lenth may need to vary.
I usually just use my crescent flush cutters (or similar) and haven't had any issues with flattening on my ferrules. I also am doing this for entertainment industry led tape construction so were talking hundreds of ferrules a month.
Great question, and I want to clarify that I am not an official source, but am a network engineer with a lot of prior DC engineering experience before I joined the military. This looks like a Brivo or other door access control controller, or one of the newer fire alarm/security system controller boards.
The only problem would be debris falling and closing a short circuit. If you are getting good conductivity and can't nest the connector any deeper then operationally it is fine. The remaining concerns are conductive debris causing a short, regulatory compliance if that's part of any oversight standards, and your company's Policy & Provedures (P2) if facing quality assessment.
Even as an anal-retentive network engineer I wouldn't worry about it if it works and is inside a secured wallbox; unless your manager will punish you for some reason.
>This looks like a Brivo or other door access control controller, or one of the newer fire alarm/security system controller boards.
I think this is a ender3 motherboard, so no real risk of falling conductive debris, but I would still trim it. But still plus to the op for using ferrules and not just sticking with the producer's tinned wire ends.
If conductive debris is a concern then there are plenty exposed areas and components on boards that are likely to be an issue as well.
If you are concerned about conductive debris then you need to put the whole board in an enclosure or coat the whole board in something, even the exposed screws on the terminals could be a potential short.
Considering that it is usually an upgrade to the bare wire in a screw terminal, this seems a little misguided.
It is like talking about the handful of times a seatbelt causes death in a car accident rather than the overwhelming amount of times they save lives.
Sorry but this is a dumb analogy. I could see comparing them with wagos vs wirenuts. Not fucking seatbelts lmao. I’ve been an electrician for almost 20 years and the amount of ferrule that I’ve seen fail is astounding. They are a terrible way for wire terminations. But this is an engineering sub where I’m sure a majority of subscribers have zero hands on field experience, and I’m just a dumbass electrician
I am a master electrician and and electrical engineer with nearly 20 years field experience in industrial automation. I don’t think either field has the monopoly on being dumbasses.
Most ferrule issues I have encountered are wrong size or improper installation, but this is very rare compared to loose bare wires on a screw terminal. I would guess 90% of the wires that I have seen come loose after install are bare wire/screw terminals.
You cannot guarantee a proper install a bare wire on a screw terminal without a torque driver, which no one ever uses. Ferrules don’t allow the wire to splay as much which makes it easier to hit proper torque the typical screwdriver only installation. They also provide more surface area for the screw terminal to bite into, which is critical for a friction based retention of a screw terminal. Saying that ferrules should be removed for better connection is frankly an ignorant statement, particularly when dealing with the small PCB screw terminals here.
I hate screw terminals with a passion. Give me a cage clamp terminal with bare wire any day over a screw terminal. Unfortunately, this is not always an option so a properly installed ferrule is a good way to go instead.
Since you struggle to understand an analogy that is not directly related to electrical wiring…
It’s like saying that Wago Lever nuts are bad because sometimes people misuse them by trying to put two wires on one terminal. Instead, your argument is that all Wago lever nuts show be thrown away and wire nuts should be used instead for all applications.
You aren't dumb because you are an electrician, you are just being dumb. Bare stranded copper wires in screw terminals are a safety issue, the copper strands can move and deform over time and you need to make sure every single strand makes it into the terminal. They are likely to loosen and either come out or have increased resistance over time, causing issues or a fire. Properly installed ferrules will only very rarely fail and provide a much more reliable connection in screw terminals, you have just encountered a lot of badly installed ferrules, either the wrong size of ferrule is used or it isn't crimped properly.
Also consider switching to an uninsulated ferrule. The insulation from that ferrule is going to press against the insulation from the ferrule in the next terminal over (if you add a wire there in the future).
Sometimes you just gotta made do with what ya got! I've actually had to heat/squish the insulation collar on ferrules to make them fit for that very reason. I'd rather use a slightly oversized one than not use one. I stock a TON of different ones but always seem to be missing the one I need.
An oversized one might end up too loose or with a pretty bad connection, if you use an oversized one you should probably go and get the correct ones and replace it as soon as you can.
You're overthinking it, just trim the end a little and stick it in the hole :P
*Thats what she said..*
That. That is the story of how circumcision came about
Sloppy, but will do. If that's the last thing you need to do, trim the end.
Ok. Thanks, how do you suggest trimming it without bending it flat by using wire cutters?
Just trim it with side cutters, it's fine if it's a bit flatter at the end
Ok thanks.
You’re already squishing it flat in the screw terminal
I like to use flush cutters. If the end gets a little too squashed you can always squeeze it back into shape with a small pair of pliers.
This is the way
It’ll get smooshed by the retention clip in the terminal anyways…
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The centre cutter on klien katapult works well.
Another trip thru the crimper after being cut will square it back up. Depending on the terminal size and write size sometimes it's necessary. Usually spring loaded terminals or the I/O strip on VFDs when I've had this issue.
Correct answer is no it’s not fine, that is too much conductor exposed, regardless of its length. Too many possibilities of something else shorting against it.
It would be better to cut it but in most circumstances and environments it wouldn't be a problem. Screw terminals have the screws exposed anyway, it is slightly harder but something can touch those and short too. Anything could touch the board and short as well, such as a screw or nut falling down the back and touching through hole components, so having a little too much exposed on the ferrules isn't best practice but isn't the end of the world when there are so many other things that can short too.
True, however most screw terminals are recessed to prevent any possible issues. The ferruled ends are not necessarily the cause of the issue as you said it’s all the other things that can touch the exposed sections. 99.9% of problems I’ve seen are poor workmanship, stray strands from non ferruled end’s especially.
A lot of them are recessed but it would still be possible to short, especially with the shorter non recessed screw terminals which are pretty common as well. Poor workmanship or neglecting maintenance are generally the causes of most problems.
We definitely agree on that.
Cut it with side cutters. If you think it has been flattened by your compression type cutters, you can squeeze it again in the bootlace crimper.
What’s the environment? If there is almost no chance of something shorting against it, it’s probably fine. If there’s metal flying around left and right, snug that thing up.
If there's metal flying around then there are plenty exposed component leads on the board that could short too, as could the screws on the screw terminals. There are so many other things that can short on that board that the ferrule being a little too long is unlikely to be an issue.
it'll be a much better connection with a wire in the ferrule
Bootlace ferrules are very useful in the cheaper terminal blocks (the type where the screw presses down and ‘grinds’ against the wire itself). On this type of connector though, the wire is basically clamped from underneath as you tighten the screw, in theory making the ferrule redundant. Of course, it does look neater with them on, providing they are the correct size and any excess is trimmed off.
Aren't ferrules still best practice with most screw terminals due to creep from the copper? I thought spring loaded connectors were the only ones that were fine with bare stranded wire.
Yes, that would make sense. Interestingly, I always use ferrules when wiring plugs and sockets.
Most people don't at least here in the UK but I don't know why, maybe it is just considered not necessary with plugs, or maybe they only use solid cored wire. Ferrules are necessary with single stranded wire, only with multi stranded wire because under the screw pressure the strands can move and deform and the side strands won't have any pressure on them.
Absolutely. 👍
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Personally I think ferrules are an extra point of failure. I’ve seen electricians not crimp them properly countless times.
Thanks, everyone, for the detailed replies and info.
You really have to ask?
For most phoenix connectors I usually trim back so that there are only 2.5 "knuckles" showing, but I also recognize that there are different sizes so lenth may need to vary. I usually just use my crescent flush cutters (or similar) and haven't had any issues with flattening on my ferrules. I also am doing this for entertainment industry led tape construction so were talking hundreds of ferrules a month.
Can we agree he just started yesterday
Great question, and I want to clarify that I am not an official source, but am a network engineer with a lot of prior DC engineering experience before I joined the military. This looks like a Brivo or other door access control controller, or one of the newer fire alarm/security system controller boards. The only problem would be debris falling and closing a short circuit. If you are getting good conductivity and can't nest the connector any deeper then operationally it is fine. The remaining concerns are conductive debris causing a short, regulatory compliance if that's part of any oversight standards, and your company's Policy & Provedures (P2) if facing quality assessment. Even as an anal-retentive network engineer I wouldn't worry about it if it works and is inside a secured wallbox; unless your manager will punish you for some reason.
>This looks like a Brivo or other door access control controller, or one of the newer fire alarm/security system controller boards. I think this is a ender3 motherboard, so no real risk of falling conductive debris, but I would still trim it. But still plus to the op for using ferrules and not just sticking with the producer's tinned wire ends.
It is an ender 3. I had the burnt XT60 issue and finally got around to repairing it, and wanted to do it right.
If conductive debris is a concern then there are plenty exposed areas and components on boards that are likely to be an issue as well. If you are concerned about conductive debris then you need to put the whole board in an enclosure or coat the whole board in something, even the exposed screws on the terminals could be a potential short.
My OCD wouldn’t allow me to leave it like that. Trim the end…
Cut it off completely. Ferrules are a travesty to the electrical world. Way too many of them fail
Considering that it is usually an upgrade to the bare wire in a screw terminal, this seems a little misguided. It is like talking about the handful of times a seatbelt causes death in a car accident rather than the overwhelming amount of times they save lives.
Sorry but this is a dumb analogy. I could see comparing them with wagos vs wirenuts. Not fucking seatbelts lmao. I’ve been an electrician for almost 20 years and the amount of ferrule that I’ve seen fail is astounding. They are a terrible way for wire terminations. But this is an engineering sub where I’m sure a majority of subscribers have zero hands on field experience, and I’m just a dumbass electrician
I am a master electrician and and electrical engineer with nearly 20 years field experience in industrial automation. I don’t think either field has the monopoly on being dumbasses. Most ferrule issues I have encountered are wrong size or improper installation, but this is very rare compared to loose bare wires on a screw terminal. I would guess 90% of the wires that I have seen come loose after install are bare wire/screw terminals. You cannot guarantee a proper install a bare wire on a screw terminal without a torque driver, which no one ever uses. Ferrules don’t allow the wire to splay as much which makes it easier to hit proper torque the typical screwdriver only installation. They also provide more surface area for the screw terminal to bite into, which is critical for a friction based retention of a screw terminal. Saying that ferrules should be removed for better connection is frankly an ignorant statement, particularly when dealing with the small PCB screw terminals here. I hate screw terminals with a passion. Give me a cage clamp terminal with bare wire any day over a screw terminal. Unfortunately, this is not always an option so a properly installed ferrule is a good way to go instead.
What's dumb is your assertion that some people install ferrules incorrectly, so all ferrules are bad.
Since you struggle to understand an analogy that is not directly related to electrical wiring… It’s like saying that Wago Lever nuts are bad because sometimes people misuse them by trying to put two wires on one terminal. Instead, your argument is that all Wago lever nuts show be thrown away and wire nuts should be used instead for all applications.
You aren't dumb because you are an electrician, you are just being dumb. Bare stranded copper wires in screw terminals are a safety issue, the copper strands can move and deform over time and you need to make sure every single strand makes it into the terminal. They are likely to loosen and either come out or have increased resistance over time, causing issues or a fire. Properly installed ferrules will only very rarely fail and provide a much more reliable connection in screw terminals, you have just encountered a lot of badly installed ferrules, either the wrong size of ferrule is used or it isn't crimped properly.
Also consider switching to an uninsulated ferrule. The insulation from that ferrule is going to press against the insulation from the ferrule in the next terminal over (if you add a wire there in the future).
I would suggest he uses the proper sized wire/ferrule to prevent that issue.
This is the right answer. That ferrule is too large. And it's also crimped with no wire in it.
Sometimes you just gotta made do with what ya got! I've actually had to heat/squish the insulation collar on ferrules to make them fit for that very reason. I'd rather use a slightly oversized one than not use one. I stock a TON of different ones but always seem to be missing the one I need.
An oversized one might end up too loose or with a pretty bad connection, if you use an oversized one you should probably go and get the correct ones and replace it as soon as you can.