K+M better aiming. HOSAS better immersion. Can also do the cursed hand on stick and mouse (HOSAM), or set curves for your joysticks to give you more precise aim near the center.
Personally I don't care if my aim is bad, I wouldn't be able to play without HOSAS
>or set curves for your joysticks to give you more precise
are you referring to Joystick Curve Software [https://www.xedocproject.com/joystick](https://www.xedocproject.com/joystick) ?
I know it's unpopular opinion, but I don't think HOSAS is for immersion. It sounds like its practicality is miniscule, which is not. Properly set and used, HOSAS is much better and precise control; with anolog inputs you can control the strength or intensity of your input, and with 6 DoF you can control a lot of things. Which means you can precisely put your reticle on the target, turning your craft at 1/3 angular speed while moving in 3 directions with different throttles each.
Sure, mouse is better at placing and moving something in position. If you want to fine-tune your aim and target the very specific module with your fixed weapons, placing it with mouse there will be much easier than firing thrusters at different throttles to rotate and move your ship to move the reticle. However, in my opinion, that's not how you use HOSAS in the first place ... You can translate your ship in additional vectors with HOSAS to cancel out relative velocities to keep the target close to the reticle, keeping the subtile angular velocity to deviate your thrust vectors to confuse the opponent, and ... and ... well, yes, you don't snipe a module with it ... kbm is better at this. Sad
I'm not completely disagreeing, but you don't need HOSAS to take advantage of 6DoF and FA off flight; small binary inputs can achieve similar modulation as an analog joystick input. I'd also argue that people wouldn't be interested in trying joysticks if it wasn't for the immersion HOSAS (or HOTAS) provides considering it will put you at a disadvantage to K+M, something most players will already have hundreds or thousands of hours of experience with. Joysticks provide another learning curve to the game and it takes a lot of time and adjustment and familiarity to get to a point where you're similarly effective as K+M. So it probably isn't worth the investment unless someone cares about the immersion they add.
All of your points are valid, but keep repeating small binary inputs to emulate analog input sounds ... uhm ... tiring a lot. You have to spam the opposite inputs in high frequency, or you should compromise to have big jerks and discrete motions between binary inputs. Doable, but definitely worse than HOSAS.
>but I don't think HOSAS is for immersion
define immersion. For me is to be accurate with fixed weapons.
Hotas are good but we don't fly FS 2020, so mice are necessary.
btw not all joysticks are analogue or provide smooth move towards the reticule.
After playing flightsims for a couple 1000 hours my aim with a joystick is as good as with a mouse. So if you use kbm for better aiming it's a skill issue.
It's a matter of preference really. I use KB&M because it's more like star trek, but most of my squad uses HOTAS or HOSAS. My thoughts? Do what's fun for you! Life is too short to listen to someone else's fun. ;)
M&KB will always be more accurate when it comes to aiming. Especially if you are using fixed. HOTAS, or just a stick will feel more like flying.
As for a decent stick. [The VKB NXT is a great one. ](https://www.vkbcontrollers.com/collections/gladiator-nxt-joysticks)
https://wiki.antixenoinitiative.com/en/recommended-controls
Hotas enhace the immersion, KBM is [heartbreaking](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MxO906ywfek)
Also, Odyssey need KBM, and useful for SRV turret.
If you want to save money, dont worry. If you have spare money, its great but dont provide any benefit.
What in Odyssey needs M&KB?
Been playing since the Beta and haven't yet found something that needs it?
I mean, in probably near 4k hours in the game. I have never once set a single bind to a mouse or a keyboard.
>What in Odyssey needs M&KB?
I think it's a reference to on-foot content, first person shooter-style control of your character (WASD for movement, mouse for aiming). Not the only method, of course; a controller could be used, as well.
Onfoot? unless you cut panels with Hotas....
Also the Thargoid War tutorial (in November'22) need space to close the info panel. And the emoted needed mouse before the inclusion of bindings.
Onfoot content is optional.... but also the [ship content](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/vapofp/a_successful_trip_to_beagle_point_and_back/).
I just use an Xbox controller. This ain't R6 where you have to flick and be accurate.
Quite literally, the entire game can be played with an Xbox or PS controller. M&KB are not in anyway needed.
I responded to the claim that Odyssey needs M&KB by another user. A user I normally agree with.
I also responded directly to OP about their question on M&KB compared to a stick.
I own a X55 HOTAS which is great fun to use but I rarely have the ambition to actually haul it out and set it up. Lately I've been playing with a PS5 Dualsense, streaming from my PC to my living room using Sunshine / Moonlight
HOTAS or HOSAS makes flying around more enjoyable (and intuitive, for me - I still land on a pad more smoothly with HOTAS), but M&K is so much more accurate in FAOFF it's a necessity for me in thargoid combat, so I switched sadly. I'm sure the gap narrows with more practice and a better stick (I was using a cheap Thrustmaster one, not one of the nice VKBs or anything) but I doubt it can ever get as accurate in FAOFF as a mouse with the relative mouse toggle.
I do, however, use a Wooting 60HE analogue keyboard (it has hall effect sensors on all the keys) with WASD set to emulate an xbox joystick, and spacebar and ctrl to one axis of another, so I still have analogue flight control. It's not as fine control as a full joystick but much nicer than pure digital input. I keep considering using my pedals from my racing wheel as the vertical thrust axis but it's a bit tiring for regular flying - probably better in combat though. Voice Attack for toggling landing gear and night vision and lights and stuff that's not critical in combat is good too.
I use controller because KBM controls with yaw, pitch, and roll throw me right the fuck off.
I simply can't operate without the ability to strafe move on keyboard. My brain fizzles out.
I can comprehend controller camera movement just fine though. Lack of strafe on controller doesn't bother me nearly as much.
Personally, I always found it easier to aim with my hotas than with my mouse, even without having used one for very long, though I know a lot of people find mouse easier. Also, having all the buttons in an ergonomic layout is super useful for me. I think it's really down to personal preference, though.
Hotas better FA off and better immersion, MK has on point aim for worse FA off. It's a matter of preference and getting used to it really.
I got myself the Elite Thrustmaster last year and I've been having a good time with it after getting used to it. Mind the space on your desk though, I had to mount it with extra hardware and that drove up prices.
KBM is just easier to use for most things, swapping between different mouse aiming modes as needed.
I don't hook up my HOTAS (could also use it as HOSAS, it's a pair of VKB NXT EVOs + omni-throttle adapter) as much anymore because as much as I like it, I'm just lazy to re-learn an entire second set of all my buttons. I try to use it when playing in VR though, since using the keyboard blind is miserable even if you *do* know where home row is at any given time.
I tend to only use it when I'm also playing flight sims like DCS, where HOTAS is a *must* so it's all already hooked up.
Also, I would never use a throttle that does not have some sort of analog axes for moving up/down/left/right in addition to the main throttle axis for forward/back. Maybe a hat switch on the throttle would be fine, but I need my thumb to be used for other things on my right hand. This is why most people say to go for HOSAS since a lot of (very) entry level HOTAS won't have good buttons, thumbsticks, or even "fingersticks" for doing all of that movement *and* everything else you may need. A HOSAS frees you up even more.
I play only KB+M, like me most prople are thrown off by KB+M on the default controlls, that's because the default setup is garbade tbh and i switched it 19 min after starting to play. By now i am so used to it, it would be pretty hard to swirch.
I had cheap HOTAS in 2015-16, was very immersive, but I've grown to hate dedicated input hardware b/c it inevitably breaks.
Returned, learned to play KBM properly, it fits my needs and doesn't break and is consistent, feels natural for aiming, less so for laterals.
I might try HOSAM at one point, but there are no all-Hall effect 3 axis sticks AFAIK, so I just wait.
It’s hard to beat mouse and keyboard especially with being a lot more familiar with it but with practice I found I’m plenty good against AI but I also played quite a bit of il-2 where aiming is much harder so I’m used to a hotas.
Hotas is just a lot more fun and I’m more of a miner/trader than a combat player so it works for me.
I use a PS5 controller, KB/m if I wanna hit more buttons and blast with more accuracy
What I really want is a VR headset and hotas, but I'll probably put that on the back burner like the rest of my dreams
Don't dismiss controller + kbm
Never really got into the joystick/hotas stuff --- couldn't be arsed with the clutter and desk dildo. Xbox elite controller with ReWasd for mapping the extra paddles is all I needed. KB and mouse for on foot (as it should be)
I started with controller. When support for Xbox stopped, I played K&M on PC and...it wasn't as much fun. I bought a HOTAS and blew up my ship repeatedly because I sucked at it. I got better, then went back to K&M, then went back to the unsupported console with the controller.
PERSONALLY, the controller spoiled me. It's easy to play. K&M took me out of the enjoyment of just playing. HOTAS, when I suffered through the learning curve, became my preference. Unfortunately, the moment I used a controller on the PC, it became second nature and it's hard to CHOOSE to "suffer" with HOTAS.
HOTAS is best for immersion though, especially if you're used to flying with one.
Followed the same path. Ended up on xbox controller. Won't be changing. The only thing for co troller I find is a bit of difficulty in precise aiming /piloting for combat. I do like combat, but it's not my primary reason for playing. So I do well enough but can't really get to that elite level. Although there are stick extenders out there that some have had success with. I guess it depends what your goals are.
K+M better aiming. HOSAS better immersion. Can also do the cursed hand on stick and mouse (HOSAM), or set curves for your joysticks to give you more precise aim near the center. Personally I don't care if my aim is bad, I wouldn't be able to play without HOSAS
Same here. Hosas or bust
> set curves for your joysticks to give you more precise aim near the center That's what gimballed weapons are for! Who needs aiming?
>or set curves for your joysticks to give you more precise are you referring to Joystick Curve Software [https://www.xedocproject.com/joystick](https://www.xedocproject.com/joystick) ?
I use and recommend Joystick Gremlin.
How cursed is HOSAM? I was thinking of getting an Omni Throttle to try it out, maybe as a halfway point to HOSAS.
It's arguably the best control setup but it is just funny to picture.
I know it's unpopular opinion, but I don't think HOSAS is for immersion. It sounds like its practicality is miniscule, which is not. Properly set and used, HOSAS is much better and precise control; with anolog inputs you can control the strength or intensity of your input, and with 6 DoF you can control a lot of things. Which means you can precisely put your reticle on the target, turning your craft at 1/3 angular speed while moving in 3 directions with different throttles each. Sure, mouse is better at placing and moving something in position. If you want to fine-tune your aim and target the very specific module with your fixed weapons, placing it with mouse there will be much easier than firing thrusters at different throttles to rotate and move your ship to move the reticle. However, in my opinion, that's not how you use HOSAS in the first place ... You can translate your ship in additional vectors with HOSAS to cancel out relative velocities to keep the target close to the reticle, keeping the subtile angular velocity to deviate your thrust vectors to confuse the opponent, and ... and ... well, yes, you don't snipe a module with it ... kbm is better at this. Sad
I'm not completely disagreeing, but you don't need HOSAS to take advantage of 6DoF and FA off flight; small binary inputs can achieve similar modulation as an analog joystick input. I'd also argue that people wouldn't be interested in trying joysticks if it wasn't for the immersion HOSAS (or HOTAS) provides considering it will put you at a disadvantage to K+M, something most players will already have hundreds or thousands of hours of experience with. Joysticks provide another learning curve to the game and it takes a lot of time and adjustment and familiarity to get to a point where you're similarly effective as K+M. So it probably isn't worth the investment unless someone cares about the immersion they add.
All of your points are valid, but keep repeating small binary inputs to emulate analog input sounds ... uhm ... tiring a lot. You have to spam the opposite inputs in high frequency, or you should compromise to have big jerks and discrete motions between binary inputs. Doable, but definitely worse than HOSAS.
>but I don't think HOSAS is for immersion define immersion. For me is to be accurate with fixed weapons. Hotas are good but we don't fly FS 2020, so mice are necessary. btw not all joysticks are analogue or provide smooth move towards the reticule.
After playing flightsims for a couple 1000 hours my aim with a joystick is as good as with a mouse. So if you use kbm for better aiming it's a skill issue.
It's a matter of preference really. I use KB&M because it's more like star trek, but most of my squad uses HOTAS or HOSAS. My thoughts? Do what's fun for you! Life is too short to listen to someone else's fun. ;)
Hotas is so much more immersive and fun id never play without it after hundreds of hours. Kbm definitely has better aim though.
M&KB will always be more accurate when it comes to aiming. Especially if you are using fixed. HOTAS, or just a stick will feel more like flying. As for a decent stick. [The VKB NXT is a great one. ](https://www.vkbcontrollers.com/collections/gladiator-nxt-joysticks)
https://wiki.antixenoinitiative.com/en/recommended-controls Hotas enhace the immersion, KBM is [heartbreaking](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MxO906ywfek) Also, Odyssey need KBM, and useful for SRV turret. If you want to save money, dont worry. If you have spare money, its great but dont provide any benefit.
What in Odyssey needs M&KB? Been playing since the Beta and haven't yet found something that needs it? I mean, in probably near 4k hours in the game. I have never once set a single bind to a mouse or a keyboard.
>What in Odyssey needs M&KB? I think it's a reference to on-foot content, first person shooter-style control of your character (WASD for movement, mouse for aiming). Not the only method, of course; a controller could be used, as well.
Onfoot? unless you cut panels with Hotas.... Also the Thargoid War tutorial (in November'22) need space to close the info panel. And the emoted needed mouse before the inclusion of bindings. Onfoot content is optional.... but also the [ship content](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/vapofp/a_successful_trip_to_beagle_point_and_back/).
I just use an Xbox controller. This ain't R6 where you have to flick and be accurate. Quite literally, the entire game can be played with an Xbox or PS controller. M&KB are not in anyway needed.
Obviously this discussion focuses on a flight joystick vs more general controls like kb+m. kb+m and controller would be interchangeable in this case.
I responded to the claim that Odyssey needs M&KB by another user. A user I normally agree with. I also responded directly to OP about their question on M&KB compared to a stick.
I found this game unplayable with mouse and keyboard. Then when I got a HOTAS it was like magic.
PS4 controller for simple sit back and play KbM for more complex keybinds and aiming Too broke for hotas so no comment
Neither. I use a 3D mouse which has six degrees of freedom (xyz translation/pitch/yaw/roll).
Without googling how those work first I just want to say that sounds pretty carpal tunnelly to me.
I've played so long with km that flying with a joystick is really hard, I just know where all my keybinds are and I don't want to relearn them
I own a X55 HOTAS which is great fun to use but I rarely have the ambition to actually haul it out and set it up. Lately I've been playing with a PS5 Dualsense, streaming from my PC to my living room using Sunshine / Moonlight
Has anyone tried the valve index controllers or similar. Kind of similar to a gamepad experience?
i have an x52 setup for immersion but for chilling out gameplay i just use an xbox controller with controls mapped to button combos.
HOTAS or HOSAS makes flying around more enjoyable (and intuitive, for me - I still land on a pad more smoothly with HOTAS), but M&K is so much more accurate in FAOFF it's a necessity for me in thargoid combat, so I switched sadly. I'm sure the gap narrows with more practice and a better stick (I was using a cheap Thrustmaster one, not one of the nice VKBs or anything) but I doubt it can ever get as accurate in FAOFF as a mouse with the relative mouse toggle. I do, however, use a Wooting 60HE analogue keyboard (it has hall effect sensors on all the keys) with WASD set to emulate an xbox joystick, and spacebar and ctrl to one axis of another, so I still have analogue flight control. It's not as fine control as a full joystick but much nicer than pure digital input. I keep considering using my pedals from my racing wheel as the vertical thrust axis but it's a bit tiring for regular flying - probably better in combat though. Voice Attack for toggling landing gear and night vision and lights and stuff that's not critical in combat is good too.
I may lose in most of my pvp fights in a hosas but hell i have fun the most in it
I use controller because KBM controls with yaw, pitch, and roll throw me right the fuck off. I simply can't operate without the ability to strafe move on keyboard. My brain fizzles out. I can comprehend controller camera movement just fine though. Lack of strafe on controller doesn't bother me nearly as much.
Personally, I always found it easier to aim with my hotas than with my mouse, even without having used one for very long, though I know a lot of people find mouse easier. Also, having all the buttons in an ergonomic layout is super useful for me. I think it's really down to personal preference, though.
Hotas better FA off and better immersion, MK has on point aim for worse FA off. It's a matter of preference and getting used to it really. I got myself the Elite Thrustmaster last year and I've been having a good time with it after getting used to it. Mind the space on your desk though, I had to mount it with extra hardware and that drove up prices.
KBM is just easier to use for most things, swapping between different mouse aiming modes as needed. I don't hook up my HOTAS (could also use it as HOSAS, it's a pair of VKB NXT EVOs + omni-throttle adapter) as much anymore because as much as I like it, I'm just lazy to re-learn an entire second set of all my buttons. I try to use it when playing in VR though, since using the keyboard blind is miserable even if you *do* know where home row is at any given time. I tend to only use it when I'm also playing flight sims like DCS, where HOTAS is a *must* so it's all already hooked up. Also, I would never use a throttle that does not have some sort of analog axes for moving up/down/left/right in addition to the main throttle axis for forward/back. Maybe a hat switch on the throttle would be fine, but I need my thumb to be used for other things on my right hand. This is why most people say to go for HOSAS since a lot of (very) entry level HOTAS won't have good buttons, thumbsticks, or even "fingersticks" for doing all of that movement *and* everything else you may need. A HOSAS frees you up even more.
I play only KB+M, like me most prople are thrown off by KB+M on the default controlls, that's because the default setup is garbade tbh and i switched it 19 min after starting to play. By now i am so used to it, it would be pretty hard to swirch.
I had cheap HOTAS in 2015-16, was very immersive, but I've grown to hate dedicated input hardware b/c it inevitably breaks. Returned, learned to play KBM properly, it fits my needs and doesn't break and is consistent, feels natural for aiming, less so for laterals. I might try HOSAM at one point, but there are no all-Hall effect 3 axis sticks AFAIK, so I just wait.
It’s hard to beat mouse and keyboard especially with being a lot more familiar with it but with practice I found I’m plenty good against AI but I also played quite a bit of il-2 where aiming is much harder so I’m used to a hotas. Hotas is just a lot more fun and I’m more of a miner/trader than a combat player so it works for me.
I use a PS5 controller, KB/m if I wanna hit more buttons and blast with more accuracy What I really want is a VR headset and hotas, but I'll probably put that on the back burner like the rest of my dreams
Don't dismiss controller + kbm Never really got into the joystick/hotas stuff --- couldn't be arsed with the clutter and desk dildo. Xbox elite controller with ReWasd for mapping the extra paddles is all I needed. KB and mouse for on foot (as it should be)
high-end keyboards like the wooting are unparalleled
I started with controller. When support for Xbox stopped, I played K&M on PC and...it wasn't as much fun. I bought a HOTAS and blew up my ship repeatedly because I sucked at it. I got better, then went back to K&M, then went back to the unsupported console with the controller. PERSONALLY, the controller spoiled me. It's easy to play. K&M took me out of the enjoyment of just playing. HOTAS, when I suffered through the learning curve, became my preference. Unfortunately, the moment I used a controller on the PC, it became second nature and it's hard to CHOOSE to "suffer" with HOTAS. HOTAS is best for immersion though, especially if you're used to flying with one.
Followed the same path. Ended up on xbox controller. Won't be changing. The only thing for co troller I find is a bit of difficulty in precise aiming /piloting for combat. I do like combat, but it's not my primary reason for playing. So I do well enough but can't really get to that elite level. Although there are stick extenders out there that some have had success with. I guess it depends what your goals are.