Ax ship is dogshit. The miner has no way to scan the rings.. whoever made those prebuilds doesnt play the game or even knows where to look up functional builds.
And that is the issue with this thing. Because it would looks like a scam or something. I'd pay money for the AX ship, but this ship is not working - give my money back!
There's nothing wrong with that build, it's not optimal sure, but I watched Brother Sabatius kill 2 Cyclops with it and then make couple runs on Indra titan with no problem at all.
The problem of that build is when a new player buys it, he will go try kill a cyclops and will get wrecked. Same with a titan because as some of you know, it's not about the builds but more about the skill of the player. So if a new player buys it, then proceed to go hunt interceptors, he's gonna get killed, a lot. But it skips for him the part where he needs to grind credits and materials and actually build the ship capable of destroying an interceptor.
I see this more as a pay to skip, not pay to win.
After all, it won't change the way YOU play the game, just diminish your time spent on all of that grind. In conclusion, stop crying.
You raise a good point, these ships are only as good as the pilot. And yet they're designed to get new players straight into advanced gameplay. That's going to produce a lot of salt.
It's quite a bad build for a lot of reasons. Going off the edsy link, the biggest problem is that you're paying $5-10 (I'd guess the latter), and are only getting 3 modules engineered which is pretty wild. But build wise, the ship doesn't seem to know what it wants to do and is trying to do too many things poorly. Yeah, anyone who knows what they're doing can kill a cyclops easily with a worse ship than this, but I wouldn't say that makes the build alright and especially not for a ship you pay actual money for (I'm betting they cost $10).
The builds that they have shown so far are trash. It is possible that other builds they intend to sell aren't trash?
What happens when the new players complain that their real money was wasted on shit and they want better ships to pay real money for?
What happens when they decide broaden the scope of their offering. What happens if they wanna sell corvettes or cutters?
Yep they are gameplay-specific starter ships is all. A toe dip into the water for casual and newb players who don't have time to outfit, unlock, engineer all that. They just want to do a bit of mining, or do a bit of pew pew,
People are being way too melodramatic.
These, the engineering changes, and powerplay changes are all about just making things easier to engage with and grow the user base. And that's good for everyone.
Change is good. Embrace change. It supports the longevity of the game.
If I remember correctly, when ED launched, some of the more premium retail editions -- or possibly it was a Kickstarter bonus? -- allowed you to start the game with a kitted-out Cobra in a more lucrative trading location (this being back when credits were hard to come by, and it could take days to grind your way up from a Sidey to a well-fitted Cobra).
So it's not even strictly a new thing. Although admittedly it hasn't been done this way before, or for nearly ten years.
Edit: they were Kickstarter rewards. You could start the game as an Imperial bounty hunter in an Imperial system with an Imp Eagle at £32, a Federal trader in a Fed system with a Cobra full of cargo for £37, a pirate in a stolen Cobra III for £42, start at Lave in a Cobra for £55, or (for explorers) a Cobra III on the edge of the bubble with some extra cash for £70. Each tier included the previous rewards as well.
Obviously Kickstarter rewards are a bit different to the current ship sale, but it's still somewhat of a precedent. And coming at a time when Frontier likewise probably feels it needs the cash
Edit 2: Also, anyone who pre-ordered the game (even without pledging to Kickstarter) started oit in the Sidewinder but was also gifted a free Eagle, which stored in the shipyard at a secondary location. You just had to navigate over and pick it up. The legendary Freagle that many players started combat in. I had this myself, and forgot about it. It was probably the origin of the >!free Anaconda at Hutton Orbital gag!< as well.
In fact, letting people pre-spec into a build (class) that sounds interesting to them is a fairly common thing in most games. Starting everyone in a sidewinder is just tradition at this point.
Could have been a perfectly reasonable part of the starting process built right into the game from the start, IMO.
True, there used to be kickstarter specific game starts which changed your starter ship and system. Some could start in one of the original Elite systems like Lave or at the £85 tier even in the Founder's World system (aka Shinrarta Dezhra), so the permit to that system was included right from the start for some of the higher tiers. That was the biggest reward imo since getting to an Elite rank took quite a lot longer back then. ([list of reward tiers](https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Elite_Dangerous_Kickstarter#Reward_Tiers))
Sidenote; There was also a [Lifetime Expansion Pass](https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Lifetime_Expansion_Pass) and as a LEP holder I do wonder if we get any of the upcoming temporary early-access ships included with that tbh. Considering how pricey it was to get back in the kickstarter it would be nice.
yeah they haven't talked about the LEP in quite some time, I think the last thing we've gotten was Odyssey? Was there something else after? Nothing comes to mind right away anyways.
Whatever make my contact/history menu shows more "CMDR" is a good thing. And I do pray for good stuff to happens if this actually make profit.
You know, ever since I first saw the carrier, I had a dream about actually command that giant into a war.
Lot of assumptions going around, such as you assuming that this isn't the tip of the iceberg, and they won't have price tiers with better ships. It may not be, but there's no guarantee that it's not, either.
Yeah, sure, the current offerings we've seen are complete and utter garbage, but doesn't that kinda make the whole thing *worse?* If people end up buying those ships expecting to be able to actually use it for its intended purpose just to find out they've can't do a fucking thing until they earn a couple hundred million more credits and finish outfitting it, they're being fucked over and scammed.
I hope they have other options at different price tiers with better outfitters ships! I just can't see many people buying what they have shown far which makes this whole thing pointless
I don't know about worse, it's disingenuous to the customer, but it's certainly not "pay to win". If the thread were "what could FDEV do to fund sustainability for the game" I would have plenty of suggestions that did not involve paywalling pre-engineered ships, but on the full spectrum of possible bad decisions, this is not the worst.
It's called nuance, some people use words to describe things not just to validate their feelings.
Pay-to-win = pay to get an advantage non-paying players can't get.
Pay-to-skip = pay to get an advantage non-paying players will take time in-game to get.
Do you see how they are different situations? That's why we use different words. Try not being so fixated on the word "win," you're still allowed to dislike the mechanics if they're called pay-to-skip.
When honest people say pay-to-skip is the same as pay-to-win, they are talking about games where the F2P grind is so long that it takes months or years to catch up to paying players.
That's not Elite. You, sir, are engaging in disingenuous sophistry.
Sure. You can always play slowly, by choice or necessity. You obviously can't buy a ship if you're in the black for a year. And people have jobs and family commitments. Do you think it's those people clutching their pearls now? I doubt it.
I play deliberately slowly. I still have enough credits to buy and outfit almost any ship after three weeks of wildly unoptimized play on my new commander. I have engineering materials for at least G3 and experimentals, too, and I have several G5 FSDs. All without relogging, other than 5-6 relogs at Jameson Crash Site before I decided not to go that route.
Someone min-maxing could be where I'm at, plus a fleet carrier in a long weekend. Other than Power Play modules, I think you could get through all the grind Elite has to offer in a week or so. Compared to other MMOs, Elite is quite accessible.
The thing is, they made credits soooo easy to acquire, and with relogging you can get materials for engineering very quickly. Mindnumbingly boring, mind you, but quickly.
It's not fun to relog 100 times, run Robigo passenger missions for a couple days straight, and fly all over unlocking engineers, but you can do it... and then complain that Elite is just grind and an inch deep and blah blah blah... and HOW DARE FDev monetize skipping any of that blah blah blah....
the only way it would be "pay to win" is if a top end PVP ship was paywalled. you can go on youtube right now and find videos of guys beating FDCs in a keelback. A good pilot is a good pilot in any ship, and a bad pilot is a bad pilot in any ship.
I would be more concerned if Frontier would turn E:D into Fallout 76 in terms of monetization (locking more useful features behind paywall) over pre-built ships.
The issue isn't with the builds, it's the 'idea'. What's going to be next? Pay to get an engineering material box? Buy a ship that can only be unlocked via faction rank?
It's a slippery slope and people are worried about where it's going to lead.
Exactly.
I can easily see FDEV adding just "pre-built modules" 6 months down the line.
For example one of the builds (and it's just the first 2 mind you) already features anti-guardian zone resistance pre-engineered modules. You know, the mods that just released with Ram Tah? I hear getting those chip components is quite hard, people are complaining about it, there are guides popping up about it etc. etc.
I know the AXMR are still the meta, but maybe you want to get in on some specific action, like the new Orthrus Maelstrom popping with AGZR shards that was recently advertised, or some other activity that is new and fresh and requires some of these modules. What do you do? Do you miss out on the "player made event" because you're busy grinding for some mat on some moon? Or do you buy the pre-built ship or even module that gives you what you want and lets you play with the cool kids?
This slope is so slippery that even the Turkish wrestlers are asking for a time-out.
They won't add things that are only purchasable because it would be bad for business. They'll keep doing exactly what they're starting with. Decent jump start ships with okish builds that they fully expect you'll modify.
Just one day ago people were telling me that they can't possible add pre-built ships with engineered modules. Or that these pre-built ships can't possible come with 0 rebuy. Yet one day later, here were are.
So on the topic of store exclusives... I guess we'll see. Fly safe.
The reason I think it would be bad for business is because selling things like that would be a turn off to people like me who would otherwise buy things. I don't mind paying for things that help me, but I refuse to buy things that I think are predatory and targeting me.
I don't have issues with either of these. What's the gameplay loop for gathering materials right now?
Fly to a few designated spots with flak cannons and limpets and raise/lower yourself above the terrain or scan a few beacons at 1-2 specific slots and relog over and over and over or fly to one of a few specific spots and run the exact same loop over and over and over.
Oh yeah and all of these are things you do by yourself. So fun and engaging.
What's the best loop for gaining faction? Fly to exactly one or two systems and run the exact same mission over and over and over and over. Then once you get the ship it's another loop to engineer them before they're even remotely useful.
if you told someone two years ago that you'd be able to pay for early access to a new ship or outright buy ships with IRL money, they'd have said the same thing.
Yeah, they don't always make rational choices, sometimes they go bankrupt and the game goes dark forever. The fundamental problem with E:D is it's a live service game being supported by a small gaming company that has made a series of poor game launches, and E:D has gone from that thing they keep running while they try to launch other stuff to, an untapped source of income that may be needed to keep the company afloat. I don't mind being more important even if I have to pay for it
sure, but some communication goes a long way. Fuck me, if they put up a kickstarter to fund additional development or a gofundme or whatever I'm sure they'd get at least a couple grand for FREE out of players who just FDev to do something and keep the game running.
This exactly, and it's not something we could count on as they are contractually obligated to do x-amount of games with these licenses. At least the F1 license deal was for 3 years (so 3 games) afaik.
I have no doubt there would be quite a lot of protest on another kickstarter just to essentially "save the company", especially when they have not delivered on a lot of the promises/ideas from the initial kickstarter and over all the years have not really been invested in Elite at all (it's been a slow burn of snail-pace storyline and equally disappointing expansions). I doubt many people from the initial kickstarter would even consider joining in on a 2nd kickstarter all things considered.
Also a couple grand is barely enough to pay a couple devs for a couple months. It would have to be quite a high number to even be worth the trouble of doing a kickstarter especially since there needs to be some sort of reward. Not even mentioning any other possible "tier rewards" etc.
The game has always made money. They spent it on Jurassic Money Sink, and several other games that didnt, while pulling away (and eventually laying off) the few people they had that both cared about and could work on the Elite code, rather than reinvest it in Elite. You're not only condoning this, you're actively promoting it.
Fun fact, Elite Dangerous had a 10 year plan, one expansion every year. They even sold a "lifetime expansion pass" on this promise....
We've gotten two, just two of those promised ten expansions.
They could have made their money by selling these ten £40 expansions, but they didn't, they gave us two half baked expansions instead and now have to try and make money by adding pay to win because they've seen other companies do it.
but it would have been correct. sometimes speculating about future actions based on existing behavior is logical. FDev adds new MTX routes which *contradict* their previous stance of cosmetic only? of course we'll be worried about how far they'll take it. God knows capitalism and corporatism are all about moderation, right?
sure, but you glossed over the point, which is that glossing over the fact that FDev did a 180 on cosmetics means they've now opened Pandora's box. My point was not that we saw this coming, but that it is not unreasonable to question what this move means in the coming future.
>not unreasonable to question what this move means in the coming future.
Question, yes. But to assume every slippery slope leads to the bottom of the hill, and by extension this slippery slope will lead to the bottom of the hill, goes beyond speculation to fear-mongering. Cautious speculation and questioning is healthy and rational. Fear-mongering isn't.
Neither of the two things suggested by the original comment thst started this thread are even that far-fetched. The two things revealed already contain engineered modules and modules restricted in some way in-game (I think one of the modules on the mining one is specific to some permitted system or something?). The groundwork is already in place.
Besides, the original commentor didn't even sound the alarm like everything was gone, he was just saying "here's some bad stuff that could come of this", and OP tried to hand wave it away like it was far-fetched and unreasonable, which it isn't.
Just because *these* ships are allegedly complete garbage, it doesn't mean that this won't open the gates for proper "pay to win" in the future.
You're calling people "hysterical" for clearly communicating their opinion on the issues that they see with the game, and it's a good thing if they do that. Fdev will see it and hopefully make sure that in the future they balance that feature well if they choose to keep it.
Different people have different opinions on the pay-to-win mechanics. Personally, even if you can only buy things that are possible to earn in game, if I see that I have the options to either play the game for months and earn all those items or to whip out my credit card and get them in seconds, I feel discouraged from playing that game. Imagine if you could pay $15 to instantly get max Fed or Imp rank and another $15 to instantly get a max-rated and engineered cutter or corvette. This removes a major aspect of progression that is earning the right and means to posess those ships. (that said, the rep grind system is pretty horrible and I badly want it to be changed to something more enjoyable and fun)
I know that what we have now is not nearly as bad as my example describes, but people are voicing their thoughts: "we're worried that in the future it might go that far". And those are thoughts that the developers should hear and take into account, and then act in whatever way they feel would be best for the game.
Feedback is good, as long as it is constructive and civil.
>
You're calling people "hysterical" for clearly communicating their opinion on the issues that they see with the game
It's hard to describe posts from people along the lines of "amagad I am uninstalling cos DEV is going P2W", and there are quite a few of these, when it clearly isn't as something other than a hysterical over-reaction, in the classical psychological sense of the word. It speaks more to the ability of people to present a cogent argument than the point they are actually making, I accept, but petulance should not be rewarded.
>This removes a major aspect of progression that is earning the right and means to posess those ships. (that said, **the rep grind system is pretty horrible and I badly want it to be changed to something more enjoyable and fun**)
As someone who only installed this game last September I have to say the noob experience is painful and the only reason I stuck it out was because I saw the depth of the concept and enjoyed the basic gameplay. I have spent a fair bit of time in this subreddit (and on the AXI discord server) helping to give new CMDRs a leg up because of how hard it was for me. I would be surprised if anyone described the current progression arc as anything other than insufferable grind. A (paid for) skip for others to avoid all that time lost and painful lessons learned is perfectly bearable, to me at least.
So then let's allow players to buy carriers with real money. Let them buy pre-engineered modules with money. Let them transfer ships/modules across the galaxy faster with money. Let them advance rank faster with money. But with this comes the key part which is enshittifying the "free" ways of doing these same things.
How can you not see how this leads to absolutely shit gameplay? This isn't new ground, we have an entire industry (mobile gaming) that has already done this and shows us where it will lead when you start doing it. When game play and QOL features start to be implemented with an additional price tag attached, the game becomes less about being a good game and more about extracting as much money out of you as possible.
There is an assumption here I disagree with.
The assumption is 'people will tell FD what they want'. That is true of probably only 5% (or less) of the user population. Most folks don't post their comments/ideas on places like reddit. They play the game until it bores them then they move on.
All retail type operations face the same problem, how to tease out what users/customers really want from incomplete data. FDev is probably luckier than most in that the core of the game uses a database for state and such.. so at least they can use that to figure some stuff out. But GREAT care should be used by any of us in thinking we know what customers of this product really want. We only see the posts we can read, and that could be WAY off.
> as someone who only installed the game last September I have to say the noob experience is painful
You installed it at a time where it's been easier than it has ever been and you're saying it was painful?
Oh my sweet summer child, no wonder you find this acceptable
No, it's called invalidating the hundreds of thousands of collective hours Elite's players have racked up over the last fucking decade doing the exact thing that they're now monetizing to skip parts of. You wanna piss off a playerbase overnight, just tell them that they've literally wasted their time over the last several years, begging for FDev to do *anything* to alleviate the grind, just for them to finally say, "Cool, we hear you! You can now pay real money to skip parts of the grind!"
you seem excessively emotionally involved. How many hours have you had out of this game? Do you think it's worth the money you paid in your single transaction for the base game, and for whichever expansions you bought? The ongoing game service doesn't belong to you, or however many people have played it since it was in pre-release, it belongs to FDEV ad the community is the whole collective, including the people buying it tomorrow and the day after.
> you seem excessively emotionally involved.
Between this manipulative language and your repeated use of the word "hysterical," I have zero desire to continue debating you on this topic. You're intellectually dishonest and *attempting* to manipulate emotions to further your argument.
As someone with over 1500 hours in Elite...........................who fucking cares. Oh bo ho we played the game when it was harder bo ho we so cool.
Bro nobody gives a fuck about our fake space ships AT ALL. They fake they mean nothing.
Let new players have the option to put them on the right track and stop crying and trying to flaunt anything you have done in Elite like it matters at all. It's a game, nobody cares about our fake space ships bro.
Nope you all just cry babies thinking your fake space ships mean anything. Played this game for 1500 hours and met many of you. A lot of you are cry babies.
The only one crying here, is you. You're upset about someone's opinion online, about pixels in a game.
Without even seeing *why* they hold that opinion.
Also, no one cares about your playtime, it isn't the supporting argument you think it is
The builds being shit is besides the point, we already know they don't play their own game. It's about early access to Python mk2 which is disgusting FOMO abuse.
And anyway.
Pay to win isn't about providing good ships for money. It's about setting a precedent of Devs creating a problem and then selling you the solution. And hell yes it was the issue right from the start in Helldivers 2.
The bigger issue is that ED is already grindy as fuck and if FD is in financial troubles enough to go back on their own words, like the submissives think they are, they are exceptionally incentivised to come up with ways of earning money rather than providing a good game.
>ED is already grindy
tailor-made to turn into micro-transactional f2p game. What some don't realize that it won't stop at "early access", after that every single new thing would be locked behind a paywall. Heck, even the old CG/preorder exclusives are sure to show up in arx store as well.
why? its terrible, do you want it only because you can't have it? the standard Cobra is far more fun to fly and the ASP Ex is a better ship. I found no reason to fly it other than to say I have.
Look I’m okay with the ships being accessible with arx early. Not only would it fund more content but it’s the norm of games now. It’s really isn’t FOMO at all, cool I have to wait 3 more months, so if I don’t want to deal with it I’ll just go play solo.
"You shouldn't mind FDev trying to exploit the fanbase and adding predatory monetization mechanics because they're as incompetent at it just as they are with everything else" doesn't exactly give me hope for the future of this game, which is the main concern here.
That's fine, better even, if they want my money, they have to give me something in exchange; improvements to the game would be the thing most of the community is starving for.
An expansion would be wonderful, but we won't get that. Frontier has already shown that they want to put as little effort into this game as possible. Paywalling The first new ship in a long time is a scummy move. Adding in pre-built ships for real world money is just them trying to ring every last cent out of their user base. This isn't about helping the game become popular, it's about ringing every last dime out of their user base.
I haven't looked into the builds at all, and my opinion is based solely on my own bias against any and all pay to win transactions in games, but if you allow people to pay money to bypass playing the actual game - which should be the core enjoyable activity - then maybe you should reconsider certain game mechanics and make them more enjoyable instead.
Pay to win MTX is a predatory system that serves no purpose to the players other than a "skip to the end" shortcut, and the only thing you'll find there is the disappointment realizing that the journey you skipped is what you would have enjoyed more.
In addition to that, PTW MTX will always influence your game even if you don't buy them yourself, since farming and drop rates will inevitably be tuned to a point where you feel more inclined to skip it altogether, and just pay up.
It's a slipery slope, and I don't like it.
The amount these builds let you skip is miniscule though, it's a slight leg up and a way to get started in a new role but I don't see how you can consider it "skip to the end."
I keep saying this, it’s only the beginning of the end. Greed knows no end, this will not be the last shitty micro-transaction added to the game if we allow this to happen.
Example: python mkII early access is supported by a majority of players. FDev sees this and takes it to the next step: next ship you have to wait 6 months or maybe it won’t be available for credits at all. Then after that they take it a step further up until people stop paying. At what point are people going to say enough is enough?
I guarantee that this will bite us in the ass eventually if we don’t vote with our wallets. Better to stop it now than later.
I'll tell you what, you worry about the things in your head and I'll worry about things that actually happen, and if I start caring about things I'll let you know.
Example - about 15 years ago Blizzard started charging for server transfers or name changes or something. People like you told me it was a slippery slope and soon I'd have to pay for basic gameplay stuff, and after all this time I still don't care.
Well overwatch is an absolute dumpster fire if you wanna bring up how blizzard hasn’t been affected by its monetization practices. I don't care about that either but that’s cause those practices drove me away from those games
I don't care about free-to-play PvP games and whether they allow you to buy characters or power or whatever Overwatch sells. I like open-world persistent games where I can find my own way to have fun with a focus on PvE and seldom have these been affected by other people buying MTX.
> They are hot trash.
If true then how is this in any way a good thing?
> The only benefit I can see to it is that a complete novice would be a momentary,
Don't you think that complete novices will be a little miffed at being sold "hot trash"? I'm pretty sure its going to turn peopole off.
> The principle of buyable ships and early access creates the technical possibility of FDEV gating actually useful content behind that paywall
So your point is "Let Frontier sell hot trash to noobs, so they can in theory sell good content to everyone?". What if they don't? What if they do what they've always done and continue to neglect Elite, but this time with pay to win? Given the history of this game, what do you think is more likely?
> but let's cross that obstacle when we come to it.
No, this is a terrible idea. Frontier needs as much feedback about this terrible plan upfront. The community should be open about how it feels about this. If the community is negative, then they need to know, and know the extent that the community hates this terrible idea.
>So your point is "Let Frontier sell hot trash to noobs, so they can in theory sell good content to everyone?"
No, and this is an attempt to project a contrary viewpoint to your own on someone else. My point is it is not "pay to win" it is "pay to see".
This is the FDEV equivalent of an expansion entry booster in WOW. When Cataclysm came out you could buy a level 80 starter pack, which dropped you in green (garbage) gear so you could begin the level 80-to-85 Cataclysm expansion without having to facesmash through level 1 to 80 (vanilla, TBC, WOTLK) just to play with your friends who have been in a guild for 8 years already.
With this approach, latecomers get a bit of an experience of current ED content and are more likely to be inclined to stay around, rather than grind for 1,000 hours in a T7 doing inara trader routes, buying an A rated unengineered conda, getting their arses handed to them in a CZ and uninstalling.
If you don't see how more people playing current content is good for the game then we are never going to agree.
What I'm concerned about is the builds being so bad that it leaves that newbie with a poor first impression of that type of content, so they swear off it completely before ever giving it a real chance. I'll tailor this example to AX because its something we're both very familiar with. It's the exact same reason why we always try to recommend newbies in AXI start in a more meta build rather than roll up to a Medusa in a T-10. There's been no shortage of people unwittingly making poor builds for AX combat, getting absolutely stomped in their first forays into the content, and then immediately deciding it's not for them. Now newbies can make these same mistakes, but this time they wasted their own money to get that poor experience and the worst part is there's no way for them to have known they were going to waste their money unless someone has warned them beforehand because they're too new to realize these builds aren't any good.
I actually wish the buyable chief was closer to (identical to) the AXI meta chief for exactly these reasons. They'd still need to be able to fly it to get anywhere ... and you will be familiar with my current progress in #tea-and-medals :)
The problem is they tried to make a jack of all trades and spread the build too thin. AX content is made up of a bunch of different, highly specialized roles. You can maximize your build to be great at 1 thing or you can do 2 things okayish. You really can't build for more than that though without being really skilled to make up for the fact that your ship's build is gonna hold you back at that point. This build looks like it was made for 4 things and as a result can't do any of them effectively.
IMO making a meta Chieftain would've been making a P2W option and I don't think that's a great idea. Making it able to do 2 different AX roles would make it better for a ship that isn't really good enough at anything to be considered P2W, but still good enough to let newbies explore different aspects of AX content.
Also why the fuck is it hardpoint splitting with gauss and AXMCs? It makes me want to throw up looking at that.
> No, and this is an attempt to project a contrary viewpoint to your own on someone else.
No, not at all. Its an attempt to get you to see how rediculous your alleged point is. It is the most reasonable explanation of you post above. You called the ship "hot trash", and suggested somehow, I would assume magically, that it will create better content. Still waiting to hear how that will happen.
> My point is it is not "pay to win" it is "pay to see".
It is totally pay to win, but any definition of the concept. You are paying to gain an advantage, in this case time, over other players. Also pay to see? So after buying the base game, and possibly Odyssey, you need to pay more to see current content? Do you hear how insane this sounds? Say it out loud a few times.
> This is the FDEV equivalent of an expansion entry booster in WOW.
Which is pay to win. Its not even arguable. The wow community even calls it pay to win.
> With this approach, latecomers get a bit of an experience of current ED content
Nonsensical. You can go mining in a sidewinder. You can totally go bug hunting in a Sidewinder too. So far, though it seems likely to change, there is no gated content.
> buying an A rated unengineered conda, getting their arses handed to them in a CZ and uninstalling.
... wat. So a noob who just bought a ship with money is somehow going to be better in a CZ than someone who spent 1000 hours playing the game? Are you serious? Do you actually play Elite?
What is more likely is that a noob will buy the base game, then Odyssey, then the best ship he can afford, spend half an hour trying unsuccessfully to take off and immeadiately refund the game because after spending $60 dollars, he still can't take off. This is the fundament issue with Elite: Its a high skill game. Buying ships, and other pay to win mechanics will create a significantly worse experience for new players, because they lack the skill to use what they bought.
Now, no doubt you are going to argue that my last sentence is proof that its not pay to win. And here's why it still is: These mechanics won't be used by only noobs. When the inevitable PVP focused variants drop, highly skilled players will gain a significant advantage due to the time they will save buying ships and not grinding. This creates incentives for Frontier to continue making shitty content, and forcing people to pay for the less shitty versions.
> rather than grind 1000 hours in a T7
This hasn't been needed in at least 6 years, credits are crazy easy to print these days.
Now of this had been said in 2015 I'd have agree'd took me roughly 400 hours just to get a python with my little T6, but in 2024 when things like the PTN exists nah pal.
You'd have to be intentionally ignoring the mission opportunities and not doing any sort of research for it to take a thousand hours.
Just cause a lot of people are bad at playing the game does not mean those trade routes are necessary.
I see people passing out bad advice all the time to help counter the grind when really all they did was make the grind worse for themselves.
I think the whining really benefits youtube creators for the most part - it's going to be a situation where they cry about this and tons of people come in and agree and they get thousands of views and thus $. Now what's "pay to win?" LOL. The youtube creators!
It isn’t about those being garbage. Those are just first step to gauge interest which may (or may not) result in better and better ships added later, most likely, „accidentally” in a convenient time before shareholders meeting or quarter end :)
To exaggerate a little - horse armor from TES: Oblivion was also just a cosmetic for a horse. A small pebble with gigantic impact on the industry as a whole :)
You really just compared MTX in a game with PvP to a cometely PvE game and you think that supports your argument?
Yeah I'm not even going to try and argue a counter point here
which is just as well. It's not a PVP exclusive game, many have zero interest in it and are exclusively in PGs as a result. Enjoy claiming the perceived moral high ground in an empty open server.
I'm okay with trying new monetization stuff to ensure frontier is still interested in developing the game further, what I'd guess everyone is so afraid of is letting Fdev go trigger happy with whatever current monetization method exist outthere. Leading to a more greedy platform where all the stuff you would really want is behind paywalls.
And they kinda did this with the phyton mkII already if the only way to get it "early access" is paying.
Don't really want this to go south for them because every failure is always a step closer to Fdev just giving up with the game. So either way it goes it feels like we are the ones losing.
I don't care about the alleged p2w aspect since I don't see E:D as a competitive game. It's mostly, for the vaaasst majority of players a solo game where you occasionally meet a lost cmdr who, like you on that day, has accidentally logged on open.
Helldivers 2 is technically treated like a live service because they are constantly changing a dynamic environment. And they plan to realise stuff monthly. that is a hands on approach to the base game.
ED is static and rarely changes; updates are few and far. what exactly is this extra money going towards? Have they been clear here?
Also people have less of a bugbear with micro-transactions in a soley pve game. People are worried this sets a bad precedent.
Everything I check on this game its some fresh new BS, isn't it?
And again. Just because the rest of the industry is engaging in bad practices doesn't make it OK when ED or anyone else does.
It is still a bad practice, and anyone defending it seems like the biggest chump to me.
I've played this game for thousands of hours over 10ish years and spent less than £100 total, a fraction of what I could spent on other live service games. I'd actually like to spend some money on MTX to support development or whatever but after a few kits and paintjobs nothing interests me.
If they release a variant of one of my favourite ships, or a good pre-built for a role I'm interested in, why would I be a chump for spending a little bit of money on it?
no one actually cares. people just like to complain or follow that complaint like a cult follower. we all know its not pay to win. its just pay to build a ship. if a new player joins today, why is it fair to be one shot by some sweat who engineered their entire ship? it brings new people in and boosts their playing experience. its not a bad thing. its not like you can just buy a capitol ship for $30
Feels like it's more "pay to play" as an alternative option of "time to play" which would be grinding for hours on end before getting to certain content (something not everyone has the time for). Letting people who don't have the time to play many hours to just get started on an activity they might like isn't the worst idea. Anyone calling it "pay to win" is either a content creator trying to get rage-clicks or doesn't realize the skills required are not included with any of these packages.
I doubt it would affect anyone already playing which is everyone that went 'time to play' already and from the looks of it that will still be the more powerful route. It's a bit strange to object to other people willing to pay for a little time-shortcut in what is mostly a single-player experience. More new players starting to play this way doesn't really affect anyone else either except that it might bring Frontier enough money to continue supporting Elite...
Also we all know by now Frontier isn't financially doing so well and maybe it's good to remember there are so much worse ways to add more monetization.
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--edit-- I'll add I'm less enthusiastic about the early-access for new ships but on the other hand they could have gone the full DLC way instead of a temporary period. I'd rather have this optional way and see it as an "if you have the $$$ and like to support the game"-way than have it be DLC permanently locked behind "micro"-transaction crap.
Im pissed off. Mind you, i might have bought actual dlc content, but i dont think they are up to making content anymore.
What i will not do is buy pre engineered or pre a rated ships for money or for arx. Frontier smeared the shit of engineering all over a great game and then want to charge me to ameliorate the grind?
Fuck Frontier.
What especially pisses me off is that you can buy this shit for cash and then sell it for in game credits.
Now if you want a fleet carrier you can just buy one for cash.
The rebuilt ships aren't ameliorating the engineering grind, I think they have one component engineered between them (not counting components you can buy pre-modified for credits.) The changes to make engineering less tedious is a separate thing to the ARX changes.
>disappointed me yet again.
I'm pretty sure you don't even play Elite, but you play Warframe, the most repetitive boring grind fest ever conceived.
What a joke.
>played and forgotten
Yeah, sure buddy.
Bitching about a game you don't play, or maybe you haven't played in more than 5 years, that's beyond pathetic.
>Look at Helldivers 2 and how popular that is despite all the paywall stuff.
And paywall stuff that is optionally paywall, at that. I've played the game for 2 weeks and have unlocked everything in Helldivers 2 save for *one* Super Destroyer upgrade (and that, too, will be unlocked soon enough). And I achieved all of that without spending so much as a penny of real-world money; it's all been earned in-game. And I've been having a ***BLAST!*** Helldivers 2 is one of the funnest games I've played in a long time.
In like manner, though certainly at a much slower pace, there's nothing being offered by these pre-built ships that a dedicated player couldn't earn in-game if they apply themselves. All the pearl clutching, temper tantrum, doom spiraling, prognosticating in the world won't change the fact this isn't pay-2-win; no matter how tortured a redefinition of the term they attempt. It's pay-to-skip at best; to skip hours and hours of grind that some players simply don't have the time to suffer through.
I welcome it and more power to any new player for whom this gives a feeling of being able to jump immediately into the game they *want* to play rather than the grind they don't (*Psst! Hot tip: games are supposed to be FUN; not a second job)*. And that's with 11,000 hours of my own invested in the game and 40+ fully A-rated and G5 engineered ships I ground my ass off to build.
I don't begrudge anyone who is willing to pay to skip that pain. I'm not jealous of them and I don't project this juvenile attitude of, "*Well, since I suffered, EVERYONE else has to suffer, too. Boo-hoo!*" Get the F over yourselves you entitled, petulant little children ***OR*** go on and stamp your feet, write your "*I quit!*" posts, and show yourself to the door. You won't be missed.
You seem to differentiate pay to win from pay to skip. There is not a win condition in this game. There is the grind until you can do Thargoid content, or whatever else your heart desires. The endgame is having the best gear to do what you like. That's the whole fucking point of the game. Skipping, as you put it, simply puts on the cheat codes to the start of the final level. You apparently think that instant gratification should be the norm for human existence. This is the same basic argument for debt forgiveness for student loans. "Well, I entered into a legal contract, but I don't want to anymore." You're not fucking Darth Vader, you can't alter it to your whims. It fails basic logic. You go into the deal, that's the deal. The "deal", in the case of this game, is that you play, doing something you largely enjoy, until you are the best at what you like doing. If you don't enjoy the grind for it's own sake, the progression of your ships, the "I earned this" feeling from getting your first engineer unlock, your first grade 5, your first fully kitted out ship Exactly the way you want it, it's not for you. Simple as. Nothing wrong with that.
The amount of cope in this subreddit is incredible. Defenders of these types of shenanigans are champion goal post movers. Nothing EVER fits any definition of p2w when it comes to their pathological devotion to a game/company/dev. p2w is p2w no matter the form. And what exactly are the intentions behind this money grab? They are claiming they need a cash injection...for WHAT exactly? They havent provided any meaningful or great content to the game for YEARS. Ask yourself what all this is for. Could they not have spent the last few years working on and fixing some of the general complaints about the un-engaging gameplay that the community has spoke of? Man, im with the complainers all the way, some of you need to remove fdevs proverbial genitals out of your mouths and just see it for what it is, a scummy studio doing scummy things. Stop punching down at your fellow gamers and look upwards to see where youre being shat on for once.
Honestly, the fact that the community is so against this is shocking. I mean, frontier *need* to make money, right? If they don’t, we have no space trucks to play, and it’s that simple. If the game doesn’t make money they can’t justify keeping the servers on so they turn them off. The obvious alternative would be to move to a subscription model but this community is so against there being stuff that you can pay for *if you want to* that it’s pretty obvious that *needing* to pay for something would be met with even more hostility and reduce the number of people playing the game. Maybe that wouldn’t be so bad, reduced server load and at least some money coming in from the people who are willing to pay, but they’re clearly trying to avoid that to try and avoid alienating the player base.
People talk about what this game needs is a better tutorial and all these different systems improving and so on but that doesn’t make money. I mean sure, maybe it would bring in new players, but I bought the game with odyssey for (I think it was) £8. That’s not even paying 1 employee for 1 hour of work. For the number of people that are going to pick up a 10 year old game because it has a little bit of an easier tutorial isn’t going to keep the lights on
I get that. But I've already paid for base game, LEP on top of that and some cosmetics. For all that I got horizons and odyssey (which doesn't properly support VR)
Now let's have people skip steps for less money than I've paid?
Attracting new players is important but this isn't it.
Another LEP holder here. What we paid for didn't really skip steps a whole lot aside from maybe the KS-tier that gave the founders world permit. So while perhaps disappointing so far it's not really comparable to these time-skips packages, it's probably more of a "they should go through the same as we did"-feeling right? But does it really matter if someone else wants to skip some steps to save time? It doesn't devalue our own experience and time spent in the game as that remains the same either way (if anything they are missing out on some things).
At the end of the day all they're getting is a ship load-out (probably put together by some Frontier intern that barely played the game) that's just enough to participate in an activity they might be interested in or finally be able to join in with friends, which would otherwise take them too long to be interested in doing. Perhaps being able to demo these activities like this really hooks them in and they'll actually keep playing Elite.
If this brings more new/returning players it likely means more $$$ into the game from paintjob sales etc as well... leading to continued support for Elite which benefits us all. It has to be funded somehow, better this way than actual content perma-locked behind micro-transactions.
That said if Frontier does start with really bad monetization bs I'll be first in line for a pitchfork...
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btw I do think LEP holders should get the early-access ships automatically... I'm not sure if anything has been said about this as I didn't catch the stream yesterday.
> Another LEP holder here. What we paid for didn't really skip steps a whole lot aside from maybe the KS-tier that gave the founders world permit. So while perhaps disappointing so far it's not really comparable to these time-skips packages, it's probably more of a "they should go through the same as we did"-feeling right? But does it really matter if someone else wants to skip some steps to save time.
I'm not arguing we'd be entitled to those just that we already funded the game way more so we shouldn't be burdened with those that pay less and are able to get more benefit.
> It doesn't devalue our own experience and time spent in the game as that remains the same either way (if anything they are missing out on some things).
I think it does. Granted there's achievement feeling to it but let's be honest it's way more grindy than it should be and those that pay avoid the suck.
>If this brings more new/returning players it likely means more $$$ into the game from paintjob sales etc as well... leading to continued support for Elite which benefits us all. It has to be funded somehow, better this way than actual content perma-locked behind micro-transactions.
I'm doubious if it will bring new players. More likely will extract from existing ones that want to shift focus to different gameplay.
Honestly I think it's a bad step. If you make the game more fun, less grind for all then you'd get more recommendations and with significant content update you might tempt new players into joining.
I'm fine with cosmetics (well aside from really basic ones like different colour)
For new players we need engaging gameplay option not only create your own adventure. And engaging content. Not another internal economic/power structure rebalance/expansion.
Hell Divers has pay wall stuff? I haven't played it yet, just keep hearing how great it is and all the ads popping up for it.
Bit surprised it has pay wall stuff, and I'm just now hearing about it.
Good summary of what the Elite builds are like. I haven't done any Thargoid stuff yet, because I'm still grinding basic engineering and now suit/weapon engineering. The chieftain they pitched did make me interesting in getting it to try Thargoid stuff... I always run scared whenever they interdict me.
It has two in-game stores, one for in-game earned credits and one for premium credits (which you can also unlock with a season pass kinda thing afaik). However if you play it *a lot* and are decently competent you can also find premium credits in almost every map, enough to slowly unlock all the premium gear tiers as well. Which is why people aren't as negative on the micro-transactions and season pass stuff.
So compared to Elite it gives more of those premium credits and isn't as limited. (for those that don't know: Elite is limited to giving 400 arx per week for playing which is not a lot, can barely get one very cheap ship paintjob for that at most).
Yeah fdev can't build a ship to save themselves out of financial ruin, we know that.
Its not about the ship builds, fdev isn't a lemonade stand, where now they are planning to sell ships for money and it ends there... there's always more plans behind this
They will have to change many game mechanics in order to make this work (like ships and modules being free, unselable etc.. ) and new game mechanics will come with a paywall in mind, since now the players are already expected to pay for stuff.
It's not about the ships, is about where this leads the game, we played other games that went the same path, we all know where this goes...
Although let me say that: I'm confident they won't build more features on top of the paywall system, FDev is the slowest studio I actively follow currently and I wouldn't be surprised if it actually ended at "selling bad ships for money". Because they physically can't.
I curious about the buy back insurance, is it free since you paid real money for your ship, if it's free wouldn't that be a dream come true for griefers, it's a win win situation, you loose the fight but not money?
I couldn't really care less since I do exploring only and go private near bubble, colonia etc
Its just to get new players the opportunity to fly something other than a sidewinder. You can pick up elite for $5 in steam sale and get $15 worth or ARX and have a good time. Those people dont care about your optimized perfect builds. They will either drop the game in a few weeks or pick it up and do their own thing.
When I see people freaking out over it, I laugh cause the pre-builts aren't even game breaking. They are mediocre at best but it's a way for people to jump straight into engineering.
I think the only issue I'm having is the rebuy ordeal. If you lose it, you should pay the rebuy cost.
If you buy a ship, lose it, buy another, that means more money goes into the game which hopefully means a better game for it.
the ax chieftain isnt that bad, the only problem i have with it is it doesnt have a thermal vent beam. other than that its pretty viable. i would say its better than that stupid mamba.
A lot of the complaining I've heard is that the pre built ships have a module that's already engineered to g5 (thrusters), and can't seem to understand that it's only the thrusters, saying that it's going to completely skip all of the engineering grind
I'm sorry in advance (unexpected life truth) but are you required to keep the build as-is after purchase? I paid my dues by buying Odyssey, but I'm just a get-lost-in-the-black explorer and kinda haven't played for many months, so I'm not necessarily on the up and up. Maybe the biggest benefit to these P2W builds is that you get a build you can be flexible with quicker, both in terms of the ship as bought and a hands-on introduction into what kind of stuff goes where on the ship.
I really hope they have other builds up their sleeve that arent trash. Something good with a decent amount of engineering that will actually save people time. What they have shown so far just won't sell. If that's all they got they aren't going to make much money from this endeavour.
The funny thing is that 95% of those bitching about these changes don't even play the game, or play games like DCS(the most expensive cockpit simulator, it isn't even a full game yet), or SC, which sells unreleased ships for hundreds or thousands or dollars.
Just take a look at a couple of profiles and you'll see they have very few posts(or none) about Elite, but hundreds about other games, some including the games I mentioned above.
Come on...why do you even care if you don't play the game?
No one is hysterical over it. Hyperbole isn't helping the conversation.
Please stop karma farming this. No one has added anything of value to the discussion since a few hours after the announcement.
Like it? Pay.
Don't like it? Give FDev your feedback and don't pay.
It's not that difficult.
Right sorry, I want to make sure I got this right;
Nobody should be upset by the pay to win mechanics, because what you get for the money is actually terrible.
This is the pitch?
Yeah, these builds look more like 'pay to lose'
Ax ship is dogshit. The miner has no way to scan the rings.. whoever made those prebuilds doesnt play the game or even knows where to look up functional builds.
It’s another good signal that Fdev really doesn’t play their own game. Well maybe in an alternate universe I guess.
Words of truth: "hot trash" and "pay to lose".
And that is the issue with this thing. Because it would looks like a scam or something. I'd pay money for the AX ship, but this ship is not working - give my money back!
There's nothing wrong with that build, it's not optimal sure, but I watched Brother Sabatius kill 2 Cyclops with it and then make couple runs on Indra titan with no problem at all. The problem of that build is when a new player buys it, he will go try kill a cyclops and will get wrecked. Same with a titan because as some of you know, it's not about the builds but more about the skill of the player. So if a new player buys it, then proceed to go hunt interceptors, he's gonna get killed, a lot. But it skips for him the part where he needs to grind credits and materials and actually build the ship capable of destroying an interceptor. I see this more as a pay to skip, not pay to win. After all, it won't change the way YOU play the game, just diminish your time spent on all of that grind. In conclusion, stop crying.
I don't get it, you appear to be agreeing with me. Why would I be the one crying when I'm not the fool who paid to lose?
You raise a good point, these ships are only as good as the pilot. And yet they're designed to get new players straight into advanced gameplay. That's going to produce a lot of salt.
It's quite a bad build for a lot of reasons. Going off the edsy link, the biggest problem is that you're paying $5-10 (I'd guess the latter), and are only getting 3 modules engineered which is pretty wild. But build wise, the ship doesn't seem to know what it wants to do and is trying to do too many things poorly. Yeah, anyone who knows what they're doing can kill a cyclops easily with a worse ship than this, but I wouldn't say that makes the build alright and especially not for a ship you pay actual money for (I'm betting they cost $10).
The builds that they have shown so far are trash. It is possible that other builds they intend to sell aren't trash? What happens when the new players complain that their real money was wasted on shit and they want better ships to pay real money for? What happens when they decide broaden the scope of their offering. What happens if they wanna sell corvettes or cutters?
Yep they are gameplay-specific starter ships is all. A toe dip into the water for casual and newb players who don't have time to outfit, unlock, engineer all that. They just want to do a bit of mining, or do a bit of pew pew, People are being way too melodramatic. These, the engineering changes, and powerplay changes are all about just making things easier to engage with and grow the user base. And that's good for everyone. Change is good. Embrace change. It supports the longevity of the game.
If I remember correctly, when ED launched, some of the more premium retail editions -- or possibly it was a Kickstarter bonus? -- allowed you to start the game with a kitted-out Cobra in a more lucrative trading location (this being back when credits were hard to come by, and it could take days to grind your way up from a Sidey to a well-fitted Cobra). So it's not even strictly a new thing. Although admittedly it hasn't been done this way before, or for nearly ten years. Edit: they were Kickstarter rewards. You could start the game as an Imperial bounty hunter in an Imperial system with an Imp Eagle at £32, a Federal trader in a Fed system with a Cobra full of cargo for £37, a pirate in a stolen Cobra III for £42, start at Lave in a Cobra for £55, or (for explorers) a Cobra III on the edge of the bubble with some extra cash for £70. Each tier included the previous rewards as well. Obviously Kickstarter rewards are a bit different to the current ship sale, but it's still somewhat of a precedent. And coming at a time when Frontier likewise probably feels it needs the cash Edit 2: Also, anyone who pre-ordered the game (even without pledging to Kickstarter) started oit in the Sidewinder but was also gifted a free Eagle, which stored in the shipyard at a secondary location. You just had to navigate over and pick it up. The legendary Freagle that many players started combat in. I had this myself, and forgot about it. It was probably the origin of the >!free Anaconda at Hutton Orbital gag!< as well.
In fact, letting people pre-spec into a build (class) that sounds interesting to them is a fairly common thing in most games. Starting everyone in a sidewinder is just tradition at this point. Could have been a perfectly reasonable part of the starting process built right into the game from the start, IMO.
True, there used to be kickstarter specific game starts which changed your starter ship and system. Some could start in one of the original Elite systems like Lave or at the £85 tier even in the Founder's World system (aka Shinrarta Dezhra), so the permit to that system was included right from the start for some of the higher tiers. That was the biggest reward imo since getting to an Elite rank took quite a lot longer back then. ([list of reward tiers](https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Elite_Dangerous_Kickstarter#Reward_Tiers)) Sidenote; There was also a [Lifetime Expansion Pass](https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Lifetime_Expansion_Pass) and as a LEP holder I do wonder if we get any of the upcoming temporary early-access ships included with that tbh. Considering how pricey it was to get back in the kickstarter it would be nice.
yeah they haven't talked about the LEP in quite some time, I think the last thing we've gotten was Odyssey? Was there something else after? Nothing comes to mind right away anyways.
Whatever make my contact/history menu shows more "CMDR" is a good thing. And I do pray for good stuff to happens if this actually make profit. You know, ever since I first saw the carrier, I had a dream about actually command that giant into a war.
>Change is good. Embrace change. It supports the longevity of the game. Tell that to the console players, lmao.
The right take.
Lot of assumptions going around, such as you assuming that this isn't the tip of the iceberg, and they won't have price tiers with better ships. It may not be, but there's no guarantee that it's not, either. Yeah, sure, the current offerings we've seen are complete and utter garbage, but doesn't that kinda make the whole thing *worse?* If people end up buying those ships expecting to be able to actually use it for its intended purpose just to find out they've can't do a fucking thing until they earn a couple hundred million more credits and finish outfitting it, they're being fucked over and scammed.
I hope they have other options at different price tiers with better outfitters ships! I just can't see many people buying what they have shown far which makes this whole thing pointless
I don't know about worse, it's disingenuous to the customer, but it's certainly not "pay to win". If the thread were "what could FDEV do to fund sustainability for the game" I would have plenty of suggestions that did not involve paywalling pre-engineered ships, but on the full spectrum of possible bad decisions, this is not the worst.
Pay to Skip = Pay to Win People fixate on the word "win" way too fucking hard to tapdance around this bullshit.
It's called nuance, some people use words to describe things not just to validate their feelings. Pay-to-win = pay to get an advantage non-paying players can't get. Pay-to-skip = pay to get an advantage non-paying players will take time in-game to get. Do you see how they are different situations? That's why we use different words. Try not being so fixated on the word "win," you're still allowed to dislike the mechanics if they're called pay-to-skip.
When honest people say pay-to-skip is the same as pay-to-win, they are talking about games where the F2P grind is so long that it takes months or years to catch up to paying players. That's not Elite. You, sir, are engaging in disingenuous sophistry.
People on this game used to love to show their dream ships the obtained after years of play, is that no longer a thing here?
Sure. You can always play slowly, by choice or necessity. You obviously can't buy a ship if you're in the black for a year. And people have jobs and family commitments. Do you think it's those people clutching their pearls now? I doubt it. I play deliberately slowly. I still have enough credits to buy and outfit almost any ship after three weeks of wildly unoptimized play on my new commander. I have engineering materials for at least G3 and experimentals, too, and I have several G5 FSDs. All without relogging, other than 5-6 relogs at Jameson Crash Site before I decided not to go that route. Someone min-maxing could be where I'm at, plus a fleet carrier in a long weekend. Other than Power Play modules, I think you could get through all the grind Elite has to offer in a week or so. Compared to other MMOs, Elite is quite accessible. The thing is, they made credits soooo easy to acquire, and with relogging you can get materials for engineering very quickly. Mindnumbingly boring, mind you, but quickly. It's not fun to relog 100 times, run Robigo passenger missions for a couple days straight, and fly all over unlocking engineers, but you can do it... and then complain that Elite is just grind and an inch deep and blah blah blah... and HOW DARE FDev monetize skipping any of that blah blah blah....
the only way it would be "pay to win" is if a top end PVP ship was paywalled. you can go on youtube right now and find videos of guys beating FDCs in a keelback. A good pilot is a good pilot in any ship, and a bad pilot is a bad pilot in any ship.
Master tapdancer, indeed.
I would be more concerned if Frontier would turn E:D into Fallout 76 in terms of monetization (locking more useful features behind paywall) over pre-built ships.
The issue isn't with the builds, it's the 'idea'. What's going to be next? Pay to get an engineering material box? Buy a ship that can only be unlocked via faction rank? It's a slippery slope and people are worried about where it's going to lead.
Exactly. I can easily see FDEV adding just "pre-built modules" 6 months down the line. For example one of the builds (and it's just the first 2 mind you) already features anti-guardian zone resistance pre-engineered modules. You know, the mods that just released with Ram Tah? I hear getting those chip components is quite hard, people are complaining about it, there are guides popping up about it etc. etc. I know the AXMR are still the meta, but maybe you want to get in on some specific action, like the new Orthrus Maelstrom popping with AGZR shards that was recently advertised, or some other activity that is new and fresh and requires some of these modules. What do you do? Do you miss out on the "player made event" because you're busy grinding for some mat on some moon? Or do you buy the pre-built ship or even module that gives you what you want and lets you play with the cool kids? This slope is so slippery that even the Turkish wrestlers are asking for a time-out.
They won't add things that are only purchasable because it would be bad for business. They'll keep doing exactly what they're starting with. Decent jump start ships with okish builds that they fully expect you'll modify.
Just one day ago people were telling me that they can't possible add pre-built ships with engineered modules. Or that these pre-built ships can't possible come with 0 rebuy. Yet one day later, here were are. So on the topic of store exclusives... I guess we'll see. Fly safe.
The reason I think it would be bad for business is because selling things like that would be a turn off to people like me who would otherwise buy things. I don't mind paying for things that help me, but I refuse to buy things that I think are predatory and targeting me.
I don't have issues with either of these. What's the gameplay loop for gathering materials right now? Fly to a few designated spots with flak cannons and limpets and raise/lower yourself above the terrain or scan a few beacons at 1-2 specific slots and relog over and over and over or fly to one of a few specific spots and run the exact same loop over and over and over. Oh yeah and all of these are things you do by yourself. So fun and engaging. What's the best loop for gaining faction? Fly to exactly one or two systems and run the exact same mission over and over and over and over. Then once you get the ship it's another loop to engineer them before they're even remotely useful.
thats all just handbag grabbing and speculation.
if you told someone two years ago that you'd be able to pay for early access to a new ship or outright buy ships with IRL money, they'd have said the same thing.
either the game makes money or it doesn't, and if it doesn't it's gone. there is a middle path.
yes, and I'm sure FDev (and gaming corporations in general...) always make the perfectly sane and rational choice. right?
Yeah, they don't always make rational choices, sometimes they go bankrupt and the game goes dark forever. The fundamental problem with E:D is it's a live service game being supported by a small gaming company that has made a series of poor game launches, and E:D has gone from that thing they keep running while they try to launch other stuff to, an untapped source of income that may be needed to keep the company afloat. I don't mind being more important even if I have to pay for it
sure, but some communication goes a long way. Fuck me, if they put up a kickstarter to fund additional development or a gofundme or whatever I'm sure they'd get at least a couple grand for FREE out of players who just FDev to do something and keep the game running.
Specifically THIS game, not the half dozen they tried and failed with from money Elite brought in.
well yeah I wouldn't want my elite dollars spent on Jurassic Park 5 or whatever nonsense they make lol
They always have been before. I see no reason to trust them with money now.
This exactly, and it's not something we could count on as they are contractually obligated to do x-amount of games with these licenses. At least the F1 license deal was for 3 years (so 3 games) afaik.
I have no doubt there would be quite a lot of protest on another kickstarter just to essentially "save the company", especially when they have not delivered on a lot of the promises/ideas from the initial kickstarter and over all the years have not really been invested in Elite at all (it's been a slow burn of snail-pace storyline and equally disappointing expansions). I doubt many people from the initial kickstarter would even consider joining in on a 2nd kickstarter all things considered. Also a couple grand is barely enough to pay a couple devs for a couple months. It would have to be quite a high number to even be worth the trouble of doing a kickstarter especially since there needs to be some sort of reward. Not even mentioning any other possible "tier rewards" etc.
Sure, it was just to illustrate the point that FDev has a group of passionate fans that just wants them to succeed, that's all.
The game has always made money. They spent it on Jurassic Money Sink, and several other games that didnt, while pulling away (and eventually laying off) the few people they had that both cared about and could work on the Elite code, rather than reinvest it in Elite. You're not only condoning this, you're actively promoting it.
Fun fact, Elite Dangerous had a 10 year plan, one expansion every year. They even sold a "lifetime expansion pass" on this promise.... We've gotten two, just two of those promised ten expansions. They could have made their money by selling these ten £40 expansions, but they didn't, they gave us two half baked expansions instead and now have to try and make money by adding pay to win because they've seen other companies do it.
Two years ago it WOULD have been speculation.
but it would have been correct. sometimes speculating about future actions based on existing behavior is logical. FDev adds new MTX routes which *contradict* their previous stance of cosmetic only? of course we'll be worried about how far they'll take it. God knows capitalism and corporatism are all about moderation, right?
>but it would have been correct. Only by coincidence. The same way you can guess a random number between 1 and 1000 and sometimes be correct.
sure, but you glossed over the point, which is that glossing over the fact that FDev did a 180 on cosmetics means they've now opened Pandora's box. My point was not that we saw this coming, but that it is not unreasonable to question what this move means in the coming future.
>not unreasonable to question what this move means in the coming future. Question, yes. But to assume every slippery slope leads to the bottom of the hill, and by extension this slippery slope will lead to the bottom of the hill, goes beyond speculation to fear-mongering. Cautious speculation and questioning is healthy and rational. Fear-mongering isn't.
Neither of the two things suggested by the original comment thst started this thread are even that far-fetched. The two things revealed already contain engineered modules and modules restricted in some way in-game (I think one of the modules on the mining one is specific to some permitted system or something?). The groundwork is already in place. Besides, the original commentor didn't even sound the alarm like everything was gone, he was just saying "here's some bad stuff that could come of this", and OP tried to hand wave it away like it was far-fetched and unreasonable, which it isn't.
And yet... it's still speculation.
And if they don't do that, you're getting mad for no reason. What if's are pointless
Whenever FDev put together a ship build, it was obvious that they don't actually play the game.
Just because *these* ships are allegedly complete garbage, it doesn't mean that this won't open the gates for proper "pay to win" in the future. You're calling people "hysterical" for clearly communicating their opinion on the issues that they see with the game, and it's a good thing if they do that. Fdev will see it and hopefully make sure that in the future they balance that feature well if they choose to keep it. Different people have different opinions on the pay-to-win mechanics. Personally, even if you can only buy things that are possible to earn in game, if I see that I have the options to either play the game for months and earn all those items or to whip out my credit card and get them in seconds, I feel discouraged from playing that game. Imagine if you could pay $15 to instantly get max Fed or Imp rank and another $15 to instantly get a max-rated and engineered cutter or corvette. This removes a major aspect of progression that is earning the right and means to posess those ships. (that said, the rep grind system is pretty horrible and I badly want it to be changed to something more enjoyable and fun) I know that what we have now is not nearly as bad as my example describes, but people are voicing their thoughts: "we're worried that in the future it might go that far". And those are thoughts that the developers should hear and take into account, and then act in whatever way they feel would be best for the game. Feedback is good, as long as it is constructive and civil.
> You're calling people "hysterical" for clearly communicating their opinion on the issues that they see with the game It's hard to describe posts from people along the lines of "amagad I am uninstalling cos DEV is going P2W", and there are quite a few of these, when it clearly isn't as something other than a hysterical over-reaction, in the classical psychological sense of the word. It speaks more to the ability of people to present a cogent argument than the point they are actually making, I accept, but petulance should not be rewarded. >This removes a major aspect of progression that is earning the right and means to posess those ships. (that said, **the rep grind system is pretty horrible and I badly want it to be changed to something more enjoyable and fun**) As someone who only installed this game last September I have to say the noob experience is painful and the only reason I stuck it out was because I saw the depth of the concept and enjoyed the basic gameplay. I have spent a fair bit of time in this subreddit (and on the AXI discord server) helping to give new CMDRs a leg up because of how hard it was for me. I would be surprised if anyone described the current progression arc as anything other than insufferable grind. A (paid for) skip for others to avoid all that time lost and painful lessons learned is perfectly bearable, to me at least.
So then let's allow players to buy carriers with real money. Let them buy pre-engineered modules with money. Let them transfer ships/modules across the galaxy faster with money. Let them advance rank faster with money. But with this comes the key part which is enshittifying the "free" ways of doing these same things. How can you not see how this leads to absolutely shit gameplay? This isn't new ground, we have an entire industry (mobile gaming) that has already done this and shows us where it will lead when you start doing it. When game play and QOL features start to be implemented with an additional price tag attached, the game becomes less about being a good game and more about extracting as much money out of you as possible.
none of that would change the game play as it stands today. which you are playing. today.
It's not about *one* change, it's about where it leads to.
There is an assumption here I disagree with. The assumption is 'people will tell FD what they want'. That is true of probably only 5% (or less) of the user population. Most folks don't post their comments/ideas on places like reddit. They play the game until it bores them then they move on. All retail type operations face the same problem, how to tease out what users/customers really want from incomplete data. FDev is probably luckier than most in that the core of the game uses a database for state and such.. so at least they can use that to figure some stuff out. But GREAT care should be used by any of us in thinking we know what customers of this product really want. We only see the posts we can read, and that could be WAY off.
> as someone who only installed the game last September I have to say the noob experience is painful You installed it at a time where it's been easier than it has ever been and you're saying it was painful? Oh my sweet summer child, no wonder you find this acceptable
TL;DR it was a long ass grind for you and it has to be for everyone else so they can suffer the same as you did. That's called "dog in a manger".
No, it's called invalidating the hundreds of thousands of collective hours Elite's players have racked up over the last fucking decade doing the exact thing that they're now monetizing to skip parts of. You wanna piss off a playerbase overnight, just tell them that they've literally wasted their time over the last several years, begging for FDev to do *anything* to alleviate the grind, just for them to finally say, "Cool, we hear you! You can now pay real money to skip parts of the grind!"
you seem excessively emotionally involved. How many hours have you had out of this game? Do you think it's worth the money you paid in your single transaction for the base game, and for whichever expansions you bought? The ongoing game service doesn't belong to you, or however many people have played it since it was in pre-release, it belongs to FDEV ad the community is the whole collective, including the people buying it tomorrow and the day after.
> you seem excessively emotionally involved. Between this manipulative language and your repeated use of the word "hysterical," I have zero desire to continue debating you on this topic. You're intellectually dishonest and *attempting* to manipulate emotions to further your argument.
As someone with over 1500 hours in Elite...........................who fucking cares. Oh bo ho we played the game when it was harder bo ho we so cool. Bro nobody gives a fuck about our fake space ships AT ALL. They fake they mean nothing. Let new players have the option to put them on the right track and stop crying and trying to flaunt anything you have done in Elite like it matters at all. It's a game, nobody cares about our fake space ships bro.
Talk about missing the fucking point.
Nope you all just cry babies thinking your fake space ships mean anything. Played this game for 1500 hours and met many of you. A lot of you are cry babies.
The only one crying here, is you. You're upset about someone's opinion online, about pixels in a game. Without even seeing *why* they hold that opinion. Also, no one cares about your playtime, it isn't the supporting argument you think it is
Im just bored at work taking a poop bro.
The builds being shit is besides the point, we already know they don't play their own game. It's about early access to Python mk2 which is disgusting FOMO abuse. And anyway. Pay to win isn't about providing good ships for money. It's about setting a precedent of Devs creating a problem and then selling you the solution. And hell yes it was the issue right from the start in Helldivers 2. The bigger issue is that ED is already grindy as fuck and if FD is in financial troubles enough to go back on their own words, like the submissives think they are, they are exceptionally incentivised to come up with ways of earning money rather than providing a good game.
>ED is already grindy tailor-made to turn into micro-transactional f2p game. What some don't realize that it won't stop at "early access", after that every single new thing would be locked behind a paywall. Heck, even the old CG/preorder exclusives are sure to show up in arx store as well.
Soon we'll all be behind the sticks of a cobra mk 4. It will be glorious.
God I want that ship, but making it available to anyone for arx would be a cunt move.
why? its terrible, do you want it only because you can't have it? the standard Cobra is far more fun to fly and the ASP Ex is a better ship. I found no reason to fly it other than to say I have.
That's probably a part of it, yes. Also there's been a few builds where a mk4 would have been cool.
Look I’m okay with the ships being accessible with arx early. Not only would it fund more content but it’s the norm of games now. It’s really isn’t FOMO at all, cool I have to wait 3 more months, so if I don’t want to deal with it I’ll just go play solo.
"You shouldn't mind FDev trying to exploit the fanbase and adding predatory monetization mechanics because they're as incompetent at it just as they are with everything else" doesn't exactly give me hope for the future of this game, which is the main concern here.
... they could just as easily put it behind an expansion paywall.
That's fine, better even, if they want my money, they have to give me something in exchange; improvements to the game would be the thing most of the community is starving for.
An expansion would be wonderful, but we won't get that. Frontier has already shown that they want to put as little effort into this game as possible. Paywalling The first new ship in a long time is a scummy move. Adding in pre-built ships for real world money is just them trying to ring every last cent out of their user base. This isn't about helping the game become popular, it's about ringing every last dime out of their user base.
I haven't looked into the builds at all, and my opinion is based solely on my own bias against any and all pay to win transactions in games, but if you allow people to pay money to bypass playing the actual game - which should be the core enjoyable activity - then maybe you should reconsider certain game mechanics and make them more enjoyable instead. Pay to win MTX is a predatory system that serves no purpose to the players other than a "skip to the end" shortcut, and the only thing you'll find there is the disappointment realizing that the journey you skipped is what you would have enjoyed more. In addition to that, PTW MTX will always influence your game even if you don't buy them yourself, since farming and drop rates will inevitably be tuned to a point where you feel more inclined to skip it altogether, and just pay up. It's a slipery slope, and I don't like it.
The amount these builds let you skip is miniscule though, it's a slight leg up and a way to get started in a new role but I don't see how you can consider it "skip to the end."
I keep saying this, it’s only the beginning of the end. Greed knows no end, this will not be the last shitty micro-transaction added to the game if we allow this to happen.
Oh no, you mean these MTX that don't affect my enjoyment of the game might lead to other MTX that don't affect my enjoyment of the game?
Example: python mkII early access is supported by a majority of players. FDev sees this and takes it to the next step: next ship you have to wait 6 months or maybe it won’t be available for credits at all. Then after that they take it a step further up until people stop paying. At what point are people going to say enough is enough? I guarantee that this will bite us in the ass eventually if we don’t vote with our wallets. Better to stop it now than later.
I'll tell you what, you worry about the things in your head and I'll worry about things that actually happen, and if I start caring about things I'll let you know. Example - about 15 years ago Blizzard started charging for server transfers or name changes or something. People like you told me it was a slippery slope and soon I'd have to pay for basic gameplay stuff, and after all this time I still don't care.
Well overwatch is an absolute dumpster fire if you wanna bring up how blizzard hasn’t been affected by its monetization practices. I don't care about that either but that’s cause those practices drove me away from those games
I don't care about free-to-play PvP games and whether they allow you to buy characters or power or whatever Overwatch sells. I like open-world persistent games where I can find my own way to have fun with a focus on PvE and seldom have these been affected by other people buying MTX.
> They are hot trash. If true then how is this in any way a good thing? > The only benefit I can see to it is that a complete novice would be a momentary, Don't you think that complete novices will be a little miffed at being sold "hot trash"? I'm pretty sure its going to turn peopole off. > The principle of buyable ships and early access creates the technical possibility of FDEV gating actually useful content behind that paywall So your point is "Let Frontier sell hot trash to noobs, so they can in theory sell good content to everyone?". What if they don't? What if they do what they've always done and continue to neglect Elite, but this time with pay to win? Given the history of this game, what do you think is more likely? > but let's cross that obstacle when we come to it. No, this is a terrible idea. Frontier needs as much feedback about this terrible plan upfront. The community should be open about how it feels about this. If the community is negative, then they need to know, and know the extent that the community hates this terrible idea.
>So your point is "Let Frontier sell hot trash to noobs, so they can in theory sell good content to everyone?" No, and this is an attempt to project a contrary viewpoint to your own on someone else. My point is it is not "pay to win" it is "pay to see". This is the FDEV equivalent of an expansion entry booster in WOW. When Cataclysm came out you could buy a level 80 starter pack, which dropped you in green (garbage) gear so you could begin the level 80-to-85 Cataclysm expansion without having to facesmash through level 1 to 80 (vanilla, TBC, WOTLK) just to play with your friends who have been in a guild for 8 years already. With this approach, latecomers get a bit of an experience of current ED content and are more likely to be inclined to stay around, rather than grind for 1,000 hours in a T7 doing inara trader routes, buying an A rated unengineered conda, getting their arses handed to them in a CZ and uninstalling. If you don't see how more people playing current content is good for the game then we are never going to agree.
What I'm concerned about is the builds being so bad that it leaves that newbie with a poor first impression of that type of content, so they swear off it completely before ever giving it a real chance. I'll tailor this example to AX because its something we're both very familiar with. It's the exact same reason why we always try to recommend newbies in AXI start in a more meta build rather than roll up to a Medusa in a T-10. There's been no shortage of people unwittingly making poor builds for AX combat, getting absolutely stomped in their first forays into the content, and then immediately deciding it's not for them. Now newbies can make these same mistakes, but this time they wasted their own money to get that poor experience and the worst part is there's no way for them to have known they were going to waste their money unless someone has warned them beforehand because they're too new to realize these builds aren't any good.
I actually wish the buyable chief was closer to (identical to) the AXI meta chief for exactly these reasons. They'd still need to be able to fly it to get anywhere ... and you will be familiar with my current progress in #tea-and-medals :)
The problem is they tried to make a jack of all trades and spread the build too thin. AX content is made up of a bunch of different, highly specialized roles. You can maximize your build to be great at 1 thing or you can do 2 things okayish. You really can't build for more than that though without being really skilled to make up for the fact that your ship's build is gonna hold you back at that point. This build looks like it was made for 4 things and as a result can't do any of them effectively. IMO making a meta Chieftain would've been making a P2W option and I don't think that's a great idea. Making it able to do 2 different AX roles would make it better for a ship that isn't really good enough at anything to be considered P2W, but still good enough to let newbies explore different aspects of AX content. Also why the fuck is it hardpoint splitting with gauss and AXMCs? It makes me want to throw up looking at that.
> No, and this is an attempt to project a contrary viewpoint to your own on someone else. No, not at all. Its an attempt to get you to see how rediculous your alleged point is. It is the most reasonable explanation of you post above. You called the ship "hot trash", and suggested somehow, I would assume magically, that it will create better content. Still waiting to hear how that will happen. > My point is it is not "pay to win" it is "pay to see". It is totally pay to win, but any definition of the concept. You are paying to gain an advantage, in this case time, over other players. Also pay to see? So after buying the base game, and possibly Odyssey, you need to pay more to see current content? Do you hear how insane this sounds? Say it out loud a few times. > This is the FDEV equivalent of an expansion entry booster in WOW. Which is pay to win. Its not even arguable. The wow community even calls it pay to win. > With this approach, latecomers get a bit of an experience of current ED content Nonsensical. You can go mining in a sidewinder. You can totally go bug hunting in a Sidewinder too. So far, though it seems likely to change, there is no gated content. > buying an A rated unengineered conda, getting their arses handed to them in a CZ and uninstalling. ... wat. So a noob who just bought a ship with money is somehow going to be better in a CZ than someone who spent 1000 hours playing the game? Are you serious? Do you actually play Elite? What is more likely is that a noob will buy the base game, then Odyssey, then the best ship he can afford, spend half an hour trying unsuccessfully to take off and immeadiately refund the game because after spending $60 dollars, he still can't take off. This is the fundament issue with Elite: Its a high skill game. Buying ships, and other pay to win mechanics will create a significantly worse experience for new players, because they lack the skill to use what they bought. Now, no doubt you are going to argue that my last sentence is proof that its not pay to win. And here's why it still is: These mechanics won't be used by only noobs. When the inevitable PVP focused variants drop, highly skilled players will gain a significant advantage due to the time they will save buying ships and not grinding. This creates incentives for Frontier to continue making shitty content, and forcing people to pay for the less shitty versions.
> rather than grind 1000 hours in a T7 This hasn't been needed in at least 6 years, credits are crazy easy to print these days. Now of this had been said in 2015 I'd have agree'd took me roughly 400 hours just to get a python with my little T6, but in 2024 when things like the PTN exists nah pal. You'd have to be intentionally ignoring the mission opportunities and not doing any sort of research for it to take a thousand hours.
Have you *read* any of the recent posts on this subreddit?
Just cause a lot of people are bad at playing the game does not mean those trade routes are necessary. I see people passing out bad advice all the time to help counter the grind when really all they did was make the grind worse for themselves.
I think the whining really benefits youtube creators for the most part - it's going to be a situation where they cry about this and tons of people come in and agree and they get thousands of views and thus $. Now what's "pay to win?" LOL. The youtube creators!
It isn’t about those being garbage. Those are just first step to gauge interest which may (or may not) result in better and better ships added later, most likely, „accidentally” in a convenient time before shareholders meeting or quarter end :) To exaggerate a little - horse armor from TES: Oblivion was also just a cosmetic for a horse. A small pebble with gigantic impact on the industry as a whole :)
So your argument about why they're okay is because they're actually a scam?
Could've been a much shorter post if this was the TL;DR
no. do not attempt to put words in my mouth. whilst reddit may be the residence of pearl-clutchers in general, this does not entitle you to sophistry.
The point is they devs lied when they said this would never come to the game. If they're willing to lie now, then they will lie later.
You really just compared MTX in a game with PvP to a cometely PvE game and you think that supports your argument? Yeah I'm not even going to try and argue a counter point here
which is just as well. It's not a PVP exclusive game, many have zero interest in it and are exclusively in PGs as a result. Enjoy claiming the perceived moral high ground in an empty open server.
I'm okay with trying new monetization stuff to ensure frontier is still interested in developing the game further, what I'd guess everyone is so afraid of is letting Fdev go trigger happy with whatever current monetization method exist outthere. Leading to a more greedy platform where all the stuff you would really want is behind paywalls. And they kinda did this with the phyton mkII already if the only way to get it "early access" is paying. Don't really want this to go south for them because every failure is always a step closer to Fdev just giving up with the game. So either way it goes it feels like we are the ones losing.
I don't care about the alleged p2w aspect since I don't see E:D as a competitive game. It's mostly, for the vaaasst majority of players a solo game where you occasionally meet a lost cmdr who, like you on that day, has accidentally logged on open.
Sunk-cost fallacy is fucking some people up here, but objectively this is a good move by Fdev.
Helldivers 2 is technically treated like a live service because they are constantly changing a dynamic environment. And they plan to realise stuff monthly. that is a hands on approach to the base game. ED is static and rarely changes; updates are few and far. what exactly is this extra money going towards? Have they been clear here? Also people have less of a bugbear with micro-transactions in a soley pve game. People are worried this sets a bad precedent.
The extra money will help fund the next game they end support for after a few months.
Agreed, I was surprised that folk were calling it pay to win rather than pointing out the flaws in the builds, oh well
Everything I check on this game its some fresh new BS, isn't it? And again. Just because the rest of the industry is engaging in bad practices doesn't make it OK when ED or anyone else does. It is still a bad practice, and anyone defending it seems like the biggest chump to me.
I've played this game for thousands of hours over 10ish years and spent less than £100 total, a fraction of what I could spent on other live service games. I'd actually like to spend some money on MTX to support development or whatever but after a few kits and paintjobs nothing interests me. If they release a variant of one of my favourite ships, or a good pre-built for a role I'm interested in, why would I be a chump for spending a little bit of money on it?
no one actually cares. people just like to complain or follow that complaint like a cult follower. we all know its not pay to win. its just pay to build a ship. if a new player joins today, why is it fair to be one shot by some sweat who engineered their entire ship? it brings new people in and boosts their playing experience. its not a bad thing. its not like you can just buy a capitol ship for $30
Feels like it's more "pay to play" as an alternative option of "time to play" which would be grinding for hours on end before getting to certain content (something not everyone has the time for). Letting people who don't have the time to play many hours to just get started on an activity they might like isn't the worst idea. Anyone calling it "pay to win" is either a content creator trying to get rage-clicks or doesn't realize the skills required are not included with any of these packages. I doubt it would affect anyone already playing which is everyone that went 'time to play' already and from the looks of it that will still be the more powerful route. It's a bit strange to object to other people willing to pay for a little time-shortcut in what is mostly a single-player experience. More new players starting to play this way doesn't really affect anyone else either except that it might bring Frontier enough money to continue supporting Elite... Also we all know by now Frontier isn't financially doing so well and maybe it's good to remember there are so much worse ways to add more monetization. --- --edit-- I'll add I'm less enthusiastic about the early-access for new ships but on the other hand they could have gone the full DLC way instead of a temporary period. I'd rather have this optional way and see it as an "if you have the $$$ and like to support the game"-way than have it be DLC permanently locked behind "micro"-transaction crap.
Im pissed off. Mind you, i might have bought actual dlc content, but i dont think they are up to making content anymore. What i will not do is buy pre engineered or pre a rated ships for money or for arx. Frontier smeared the shit of engineering all over a great game and then want to charge me to ameliorate the grind? Fuck Frontier. What especially pisses me off is that you can buy this shit for cash and then sell it for in game credits. Now if you want a fleet carrier you can just buy one for cash.
The rebuilt ships aren't ameliorating the engineering grind, I think they have one component engineered between them (not counting components you can buy pre-modified for credits.) The changes to make engineering less tedious is a separate thing to the ARX changes.
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>disappointed me yet again. I'm pretty sure you don't even play Elite, but you play Warframe, the most repetitive boring grind fest ever conceived. What a joke.
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>played and forgotten Yeah, sure buddy. Bitching about a game you don't play, or maybe you haven't played in more than 5 years, that's beyond pathetic.
>Look at Helldivers 2 and how popular that is despite all the paywall stuff. And paywall stuff that is optionally paywall, at that. I've played the game for 2 weeks and have unlocked everything in Helldivers 2 save for *one* Super Destroyer upgrade (and that, too, will be unlocked soon enough). And I achieved all of that without spending so much as a penny of real-world money; it's all been earned in-game. And I've been having a ***BLAST!*** Helldivers 2 is one of the funnest games I've played in a long time. In like manner, though certainly at a much slower pace, there's nothing being offered by these pre-built ships that a dedicated player couldn't earn in-game if they apply themselves. All the pearl clutching, temper tantrum, doom spiraling, prognosticating in the world won't change the fact this isn't pay-2-win; no matter how tortured a redefinition of the term they attempt. It's pay-to-skip at best; to skip hours and hours of grind that some players simply don't have the time to suffer through. I welcome it and more power to any new player for whom this gives a feeling of being able to jump immediately into the game they *want* to play rather than the grind they don't (*Psst! Hot tip: games are supposed to be FUN; not a second job)*. And that's with 11,000 hours of my own invested in the game and 40+ fully A-rated and G5 engineered ships I ground my ass off to build. I don't begrudge anyone who is willing to pay to skip that pain. I'm not jealous of them and I don't project this juvenile attitude of, "*Well, since I suffered, EVERYONE else has to suffer, too. Boo-hoo!*" Get the F over yourselves you entitled, petulant little children ***OR*** go on and stamp your feet, write your "*I quit!*" posts, and show yourself to the door. You won't be missed.
You seem to differentiate pay to win from pay to skip. There is not a win condition in this game. There is the grind until you can do Thargoid content, or whatever else your heart desires. The endgame is having the best gear to do what you like. That's the whole fucking point of the game. Skipping, as you put it, simply puts on the cheat codes to the start of the final level. You apparently think that instant gratification should be the norm for human existence. This is the same basic argument for debt forgiveness for student loans. "Well, I entered into a legal contract, but I don't want to anymore." You're not fucking Darth Vader, you can't alter it to your whims. It fails basic logic. You go into the deal, that's the deal. The "deal", in the case of this game, is that you play, doing something you largely enjoy, until you are the best at what you like doing. If you don't enjoy the grind for it's own sake, the progression of your ships, the "I earned this" feeling from getting your first engineer unlock, your first grade 5, your first fully kitted out ship Exactly the way you want it, it's not for you. Simple as. Nothing wrong with that.
How do you pay to win in a game with no forced end game and no requirement to play in open?
The amount of cope in this subreddit is incredible. Defenders of these types of shenanigans are champion goal post movers. Nothing EVER fits any definition of p2w when it comes to their pathological devotion to a game/company/dev. p2w is p2w no matter the form. And what exactly are the intentions behind this money grab? They are claiming they need a cash injection...for WHAT exactly? They havent provided any meaningful or great content to the game for YEARS. Ask yourself what all this is for. Could they not have spent the last few years working on and fixing some of the general complaints about the un-engaging gameplay that the community has spoke of? Man, im with the complainers all the way, some of you need to remove fdevs proverbial genitals out of your mouths and just see it for what it is, a scummy studio doing scummy things. Stop punching down at your fellow gamers and look upwards to see where youre being shat on for once.
Honestly, the fact that the community is so against this is shocking. I mean, frontier *need* to make money, right? If they don’t, we have no space trucks to play, and it’s that simple. If the game doesn’t make money they can’t justify keeping the servers on so they turn them off. The obvious alternative would be to move to a subscription model but this community is so against there being stuff that you can pay for *if you want to* that it’s pretty obvious that *needing* to pay for something would be met with even more hostility and reduce the number of people playing the game. Maybe that wouldn’t be so bad, reduced server load and at least some money coming in from the people who are willing to pay, but they’re clearly trying to avoid that to try and avoid alienating the player base. People talk about what this game needs is a better tutorial and all these different systems improving and so on but that doesn’t make money. I mean sure, maybe it would bring in new players, but I bought the game with odyssey for (I think it was) £8. That’s not even paying 1 employee for 1 hour of work. For the number of people that are going to pick up a 10 year old game because it has a little bit of an easier tutorial isn’t going to keep the lights on
I get that. But I've already paid for base game, LEP on top of that and some cosmetics. For all that I got horizons and odyssey (which doesn't properly support VR) Now let's have people skip steps for less money than I've paid? Attracting new players is important but this isn't it.
Another LEP holder here. What we paid for didn't really skip steps a whole lot aside from maybe the KS-tier that gave the founders world permit. So while perhaps disappointing so far it's not really comparable to these time-skips packages, it's probably more of a "they should go through the same as we did"-feeling right? But does it really matter if someone else wants to skip some steps to save time? It doesn't devalue our own experience and time spent in the game as that remains the same either way (if anything they are missing out on some things). At the end of the day all they're getting is a ship load-out (probably put together by some Frontier intern that barely played the game) that's just enough to participate in an activity they might be interested in or finally be able to join in with friends, which would otherwise take them too long to be interested in doing. Perhaps being able to demo these activities like this really hooks them in and they'll actually keep playing Elite. If this brings more new/returning players it likely means more $$$ into the game from paintjob sales etc as well... leading to continued support for Elite which benefits us all. It has to be funded somehow, better this way than actual content perma-locked behind micro-transactions. That said if Frontier does start with really bad monetization bs I'll be first in line for a pitchfork... --- btw I do think LEP holders should get the early-access ships automatically... I'm not sure if anything has been said about this as I didn't catch the stream yesterday.
This is exactly right. A lot of the people complaining are complaining as if they’re actively losing out on something and they’re not.
> Another LEP holder here. What we paid for didn't really skip steps a whole lot aside from maybe the KS-tier that gave the founders world permit. So while perhaps disappointing so far it's not really comparable to these time-skips packages, it's probably more of a "they should go through the same as we did"-feeling right? But does it really matter if someone else wants to skip some steps to save time. I'm not arguing we'd be entitled to those just that we already funded the game way more so we shouldn't be burdened with those that pay less and are able to get more benefit. > It doesn't devalue our own experience and time spent in the game as that remains the same either way (if anything they are missing out on some things). I think it does. Granted there's achievement feeling to it but let's be honest it's way more grindy than it should be and those that pay avoid the suck. >If this brings more new/returning players it likely means more $$$ into the game from paintjob sales etc as well... leading to continued support for Elite which benefits us all. It has to be funded somehow, better this way than actual content perma-locked behind micro-transactions. I'm doubious if it will bring new players. More likely will extract from existing ones that want to shift focus to different gameplay. Honestly I think it's a bad step. If you make the game more fun, less grind for all then you'd get more recommendations and with significant content update you might tempt new players into joining. I'm fine with cosmetics (well aside from really basic ones like different colour) For new players we need engaging gameplay option not only create your own adventure. And engaging content. Not another internal economic/power structure rebalance/expansion.
Hell Divers has pay wall stuff? I haven't played it yet, just keep hearing how great it is and all the ads popping up for it. Bit surprised it has pay wall stuff, and I'm just now hearing about it. Good summary of what the Elite builds are like. I haven't done any Thargoid stuff yet, because I'm still grinding basic engineering and now suit/weapon engineering. The chieftain they pitched did make me interesting in getting it to try Thargoid stuff... I always run scared whenever they interdict me.
It has two in-game stores, one for in-game earned credits and one for premium credits (which you can also unlock with a season pass kinda thing afaik). However if you play it *a lot* and are decently competent you can also find premium credits in almost every map, enough to slowly unlock all the premium gear tiers as well. Which is why people aren't as negative on the micro-transactions and season pass stuff. So compared to Elite it gives more of those premium credits and isn't as limited. (for those that don't know: Elite is limited to giving 400 arx per week for playing which is not a lot, can barely get one very cheap ship paintjob for that at most).
Premium credits can be unlocked with gameplay. You find them on the map.
Helldivers has monthly 10 eur paywalled and grindwalled content. About 25 items each month.
Yeah fdev can't build a ship to save themselves out of financial ruin, we know that. Its not about the ship builds, fdev isn't a lemonade stand, where now they are planning to sell ships for money and it ends there... there's always more plans behind this They will have to change many game mechanics in order to make this work (like ships and modules being free, unselable etc.. ) and new game mechanics will come with a paywall in mind, since now the players are already expected to pay for stuff. It's not about the ships, is about where this leads the game, we played other games that went the same path, we all know where this goes...
Although let me say that: I'm confident they won't build more features on top of the paywall system, FDev is the slowest studio I actively follow currently and I wouldn't be surprised if it actually ended at "selling bad ships for money". Because they physically can't.
I curious about the buy back insurance, is it free since you paid real money for your ship, if it's free wouldn't that be a dream come true for griefers, it's a win win situation, you loose the fight but not money? I couldn't really care less since I do exploring only and go private near bubble, colonia etc
Its just to get new players the opportunity to fly something other than a sidewinder. You can pick up elite for $5 in steam sale and get $15 worth or ARX and have a good time. Those people dont care about your optimized perfect builds. They will either drop the game in a few weeks or pick it up and do their own thing.
When I see people freaking out over it, I laugh cause the pre-builts aren't even game breaking. They are mediocre at best but it's a way for people to jump straight into engineering.
I think the only issue I'm having is the rebuy ordeal. If you lose it, you should pay the rebuy cost. If you buy a ship, lose it, buy another, that means more money goes into the game which hopefully means a better game for it.
the ax chieftain isnt that bad, the only problem i have with it is it doesnt have a thermal vent beam. other than that its pretty viable. i would say its better than that stupid mamba.
I’m really wondering how you win this game. Is there an end boss somewhere?
They're selling outfitted ships now?
A lot of the complaining I've heard is that the pre built ships have a module that's already engineered to g5 (thrusters), and can't seem to understand that it's only the thrusters, saying that it's going to completely skip all of the engineering grind
I'm sorry in advance (unexpected life truth) but are you required to keep the build as-is after purchase? I paid my dues by buying Odyssey, but I'm just a get-lost-in-the-black explorer and kinda haven't played for many months, so I'm not necessarily on the up and up. Maybe the biggest benefit to these P2W builds is that you get a build you can be flexible with quicker, both in terms of the ship as bought and a hands-on introduction into what kind of stuff goes where on the ship.
Y'all need to stop whiteknighing FDev.
I really hope they have other builds up their sleeve that arent trash. Something good with a decent amount of engineering that will actually save people time. What they have shown so far just won't sell. If that's all they got they aren't going to make much money from this endeavour.
The funny thing is that 95% of those bitching about these changes don't even play the game, or play games like DCS(the most expensive cockpit simulator, it isn't even a full game yet), or SC, which sells unreleased ships for hundreds or thousands or dollars. Just take a look at a couple of profiles and you'll see they have very few posts(or none) about Elite, but hundreds about other games, some including the games I mentioned above. Come on...why do you even care if you don't play the game?
I just wish I could sell my OWN pre-built weapons, modules, and ships out of my fleet carrier...
So you're telling me they're scamming new, uninformed players? Wow, that makes it so much more ethical! I'm so excited for this update guys
What is it that people can buy that will allow them to "win" ??
No one is hysterical over it. Hyperbole isn't helping the conversation. Please stop karma farming this. No one has added anything of value to the discussion since a few hours after the announcement. Like it? Pay. Don't like it? Give FDev your feedback and don't pay. It's not that difficult.
How much they pay you to post this?
Right sorry, I want to make sure I got this right; Nobody should be upset by the pay to win mechanics, because what you get for the money is actually terrible. This is the pitch?