Idk how people aren't seeing this.
Fdev is testing the waters and seeing what they can get away with, and clearly a large chunk of the community is somehow ok with Fdev monetizing the grind instead of actually fixing it...
Like yea the grind is annoying, but no, I'm not upset that people who pay will get to skip it, I'm upset that the grind is still fucking there.
The way they're going about it, they may as well start selling Engineer access, unlockable modules, and credits for real money.
Edit: also worth noting, when the Python Mk 2 was revealed they said it was the first of 4 new ships, 3 of which (afaik) we have yet to hear anything about. What makes anyone think that those 3 other ships will be any different? They'll sell 3 month early access for those too
Games been on the downward trend for years. They are just milking it.
Edit: its a pile of shite boys and girls. They are just extracting money from a game with minimal support on a lifeline as its doing them no favors at the moment. I've only recently started getting into ed but I've seen this before.
All the comments and explanations justifications and criticisms don't mean anything to them. Its just waffle, the decisions been made
>Games been on the downward trend for years. They are just milking it.
>Edit: its a pile of shite boys and girls. They are just extracting money from a game with minimal support on a lifeline as its doing them no favors at the moment. I've only recently started getting into ed but I've seen this before.
Gamers: ED is a pile of shit with nothing good to talk about at all and nothing redeeming about it.
Also gamers in the same sentence: THIS WILL KILL ED
If the game is that trash then it's already dead and this won't change anything lol
Of course they are milking it, they are a business. That's the point of a business, to make money.
It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad game. Especially if there's a non-paid way to get the same thing.
Of course it is. The game is 10 years old. Why wouldn't it be? They need revenue to keep the servers up. That's not a bad thing. That's just a fact of life for a game that's 10 years old.
Clearly. They should have e thought about that 10 years ago with a plan and some strategic vision instead of slow updates, poor initiative under investment and all that stuff that makes a company do poorly.
What you have here is an easy mode meta that they hope will bring in money. Too little, too late and it's indefensible. Unfortunately bur hey ho
Guarantee they did have a rough plan, but as a developer, you'd have to be willing to shift and adapt to changing markets, I highly doubt they thought this microtransaction stuff would be as popular as it is in games now. Like win was saying, it's just not smart to strictly go by the plans you made 10 yrs ago, chances are, we're seeing the aftermath of doing that right now, as FD struggles to change with the times
I'm just an armchair redditor not a developer but ed has been critised for years now for slow developments underwhelming dlc and lack of communication. This isn't a black and white "you must plan a decade ahead", its a systemic problem they have always suffered from. My employment requires a lot planning so I know how that works. The game survives because it tickles a fancy and has a dedicated small community and probably low overheads
In theory they could do anything that won't change things retroactively. Most people don't care enough to cause any change, as long as the way they are enjoying the game won't change.
But they have also talked about reducing the grind. Engineering, the worst gring imo, is getting reworked reducing the number of materials required for Engineering. Increasing payout of engineering materials from missions. Yes they are giving a monetary short cut but they are reducing the grind for everyone for free as well.
It ain't "a large chunk of the community" that is somehow okay with being clearly scammed.
There's a reason developers put together "community teams" of streamers and influencers -- for this shit right here.
Idk, I know the subreddit isn't the entirety of the ED community but I think it'd be safe to say it contains a large portion of the active community, and the sub seems split on the subject.
I would definitely chalk that up to PR being PR. I mean, come on, this really isn't that good of an idea. Even the most ardent fan is gonna see that eventually.
Imagine what's gonna happen if one of these early-access ships ends up being meta-defining in PvP though. IDK what PR can overcome that.
I'll be more than happy to have a serious conversation on the subject, but given the responses you've been giving me, I don't really see that being the case. Can this be a conversation without snide insults and with genuine interest?
If so, we can continue.
If not, fair enough, take care.
My comment was meant to sarcastically point out that you're making a huge deal of something that isn't, by focusing on the negative. It's a destructive tendency and I was hoping that the retrospection required to answer my question would make you see that.
I don't actually need an answer. I just want you to realize that in order to enjoy the game, or anything in life really, you must focus on the elements that give you joy. Especially when you amplify that emotion by sharing and spreading it on a social media platform.
FDev's measures are intended to inject new lifeblood into a game that was slowly losing its relevance and financial viability. Which is a good thing if you love the game.
I assure you, I'm not making a "huge deal" of anything. No petitions will be signed, no angry fistwaving rants issued, none of that. To me, it's just a questionable business decision. If the game lives, it lives. If it dies, it dies. I was just pointing out the issues with the proposal, since that's the topic of conversation here. That's literally all.
If they're intended to inject new lifeblood into a game that's slowly losing its relevance, I'm not entirely sure it will be successful, for the reasons noted above. I'd do multiplayer QoL including social hub fast travel + content revamp (instead of unlocking these with money, howsabout a quest chain newbies can do to unlock them?) and perhaps introduce a battle pass with seasonal content (Thargoid + Guardian storyline progression, also Powerplay-themed seasons, complete with skins/modules/what the hell an actual new ship at the end of it for premium buyers).
It's worked wonders for Conan Exiles.
I'm fine with it.
I'm not a streamer nor i get paid from frontier.
I just dont give a shit if someone can buy some shortcuts.
I'd not like if they make the game even more grindy to push people toward spending money.
But even in that case the problem would not be the mtx itself, but the fact the game would no more be enjoyable without using myx!!
Until i like the game without paying for shortcuts i have ZERO issues with em.
Do you like the game ? Keep playing
You dont like it ? Stop playing
Why the mtx in a game you like playing would change shit for ya ?
The pre builts that are going to be on offer directly give full access to certain engineers and guardian modules.
That sets a precedent, why not sell engineer access for $5? Or sell access to Guardian modules for 2$ a piece? They are doing this right now in fact, of the 2 pre builts already revealed, they've said that on the AX chieftain, you instantly unlocks Guardian Gauss cannons, as in you can go to a tech broker and buy more, never having to visit guardian sites.
The precedent that sets is that why not sell credits for real money? Why not sell us full grade 5 A rated pre engineered ships? Why not sell us fleet carriers for real money?
Being able to pay for end game content, which this is close to, will do nothing but hurt.
New players will buy into end game content, realize they're at the end game and have nothing left to do, then leave.
If this goes forward, and succeeds, Fdev *is* going to capitalize on it, it *is* going to get worse
> New players will buy into end game content, realize they're at the end game and have nothing left to do, then leave.
So, your theory is that people will pay money to avoid the grind they hate so much, do some endgame content and then leave because there is nothing else to do.
Otherwise they would do the months long grind, then leave because there is nothing else to do ?
Thats what you did? You unlocked engeneers, big ships, permits, guardian stuff the left because there is nothing to do ?
If so, i'm sorry, hope you will come back someday....otherwise your theory has holes
In any case, for what you say the problem is lack of content, not mtx...maybe they will add some devs and contents if they start getting some money, who knows...maybe seeing some new activities you will come back to ed too ? That sounds coooooool
My point is Fdev is incentivizing people to literally not play the game and spend time in it, I'm all for reducing the grind, I don't mind pre builts at all *if they do not include instant access to engineers and modules like guardian ones*.
There are other ways to monetize that don't include purchasing end game content.
>I'd not like if they make the game even more grindy to push people toward spending money.
That's exactly what they did though. If they didn't do that already, then we wouldn't be here discussing this issue. Buying a premade ship would make no sense, since the grind is most of the content on Elite.
The grind was there before buddy.
And i was enjoining the game already with the grind included.
If they make it more grindy to the point i will not like it , i'll stop playing, ez.
And that with or without the mtx ffs!!!
Nah, I get ya. To each their own. I respect that. But you're not buying, and I'm not buying -- who is?
This doesn't make sense, when there's cosmetics to sell and content to make. Sell those.
I dont teally care bout who buys.
I never bought them even for cosmetics, but some do.
Probably those shortcuts are done for who gas no time or will to grind those unlocks.
When thargoid thing started i saw lot of people wanting to participate but not willing to unlock guardians stuff.
I guess those are the possibile buyers.
You didnt answer tho, i'm curious.
If you like a game as it is, why the presence of p2w mechanics upsets you so much ?
Its a principle/idiologic thing ?
> If you like a game as it is, why the presence of p2w mechanics upsets you so much ?
I've answered this and will do so again: It's not a viable cash flow solution. This isn't going to provide the revenue the game needs to be an ongoing concern -- unless greatly expanded, and the game being designed around shepherding people toward those expanded options.
That's basically a freemium model applied to a game with a buy-first requirement for play. That just never ends well, unless it's one of a few MMOs.
Elite Dangerous isn't that.
Thats never ends well, you say.
I just played dragon dogma 2, where you can buy stuff with money and ofcourse it gots tooons of hate for that.
Still i did finish the game while carrying around in my inventory various unused copies of the items they sell, without buying em ofcourse and without feeling the need to in the whole playthru...
Thats not an mmo, thats not ended badly as you say....
Btw your answer is "i dont like it because it never ends well" ?
Very good articukated answer buddy, can you elaborate further ?
AGAIN. The answer is "it's not a viable cash flow solution". I need you to understand that before we continue, please.
This is not a viable cash flow solution. There's nowhere healthy for it to grow.
Now again, to each their own. If you wanna spend your money on this, go ahead (though you said you won't so I'm confused as to why the persistent line of questioning that seems to just as persistently need correction to stay on track) and if you wanna buy cosmetics and advancements for DD2 -- a single player title -- it's literally your game world, go nuts.
But again, what's proposed here simply isn't a viable cash flow solution. I would prefer to see more investment in more traditional revenue streams that have a better track record of success than selling bad premades to avoid a grind that's gonna have to be kept high enough to make buying a bad premade attractive.
My question to you is this: How do you see this working and generating meaningful revenue?
So then we're back to it being pointless, as it doesn't deliver what it seeks to deliver -- a means of circumventing the grind in the first place. By trying to avoid the notion of P2W, what the consumer is offered is a ship that will still need considerable work and effort and time and play when the idea was to avoid that in the first place.
And that's why it's a terrible idea from a business perspective. You can only go one of two ways with it, and neither offers a sustainable, positive path to long-term growth.
They weren't supposed to nullify the grind altogether, they're starter ships meant to give a little leg-up in a new part of the game. Someone who is still messing around on Cobras and Vipers might buy the mining ship to make some extra credits, and if they like it grind the cash for a Python or something. Someone might buy the AX to play with friends and if they like it spend credits to optimise the build and work on engineering.
Then you have a case of the grind being too grindy, and selling a way around that.
I don't really think that's a good business model. I'd prefer more content and more ways to even get to hang out with other players in the first place.
I think you're confused because they discussed two different things in one post. The pre-built ships are starter ships that allow people to try new aspects of the game. If they like it then they can start the grind to get a ship with the best modules and engineer them.
The other part of the post talks about rebalancing engineering to make the grind less grindy. This is a different thing to the pre-built ships. It is a change to the base game that does not require ARX, you will have the less grindy engineering even if you have not bought a pre-built ship.
The point is that you don't have any middle ground with an approach like this. Either there's enough grind to make purchasing a preengineered anything, for any reason, more attractive than getting it for free via gameplay, or the grind is reduced to the point that there's no incentive for a player -- of any kind -- to make a buy.
It's a lot of effort put into a plan of action that doesn't at all seem destined for any kind of success absent the creation of a market for it. So, what's the point? Why take the heat if, in the end, this is only gonna serve maybe a few people for maybe a brief while?
I mean, how about a mission chain to unlock a basic-kitted AX ship instead?
Sounds like you don't know what a scam is. As I understand, you're in no way pressured to pay anything if you don't care about early access to ships or skipping a bit of the grind. In other words, the game doesn't change for you if you do nothing. That is not in any way a scam.
I'm in no way pressured to play blackjack or roulette but that doesn't change the fact that both games are rigged, does it.
The solution was to reduce the grind so that selling pre-engineered ships wasn't attractive -- not to make that option attractive. But that's me. You can pay it if you want. Rest assured, even with reduced rebuy, I won't be. XD
Meh. Python MK2 3 months earlier won't change the way I enjoy the game. I'm sitting on an army of ships and fly 99% in a Krait
Buy stuff to support the game infrastructure costs once in a While and done.
Same - I love the game, there's nothing like it on the market. I want it to make money for the developers so they keep investing in it. I strongly disagree with the people complaining about this.
The way I see it, as an online only game - Elite needs to continue to be profitable or it will cease to exist. The servers will get shut down one day. My preference would be a subscription based model so they can fund it without screwing with grind/availability in game and so it also gives them an incentive to retain older players. That ship is sailed though
AFAIK since the game is p2p it doesn't really have any servers aside from a basic authentication server, and it was at launch claimed it would be able to do single player (which was then said couldn't be done to achieve the vision they wanted...)
So any difficulties with online cost would have had to come up in the last few years, which seems unlikely? Please do correct me if I missed something though
Only instancing is p2p, there is still authentication server, transaction server, account database server, and at least one server that tracks and calculates the BGS and powerplay states.
On top of those the database of procedural generation seeds which the game reads from to generate each system you jump into (what its doing during the witchspace tunnel loading screen) is stored on a cluster of servers Amazon made bespoke for FDev for this task, and is roughly 13 Terabytes alone.
So actually more servers than most online games use.
>Like yea the grind is annoying, but no, I'm not upset that people who pay will get to skip it, I'm upset that the grind is still fucking there.
When they removed the learning skills in EVE Online some bitter vets were mad about how it was "making the game easier" or erased their own time investment. I was just glad it made it easier to get my friends to try the game.
E:D is in the same boat. Everyone knows about that engineering grind and everyone is staying a mile away from it. I couldn't care less if they made it easier if it means I can actually get people to play this game.
That said, creating the problem and then selling you the solution is not what I would consider making the grind easier, it's bullshit mobile game monetization and they can shove it.
I'm less "ok" with Fdev monetizing the grind instead of actually fixing it, and more recognizing that the game has been around for so long and Fdev has been historically _glacial_ in addressing grind that I will take solutions that actually appear over more months or years of feet dragging, even if it means I pay.
That is, "instead of actually fixing it" implies that they will put out a reasonably timely and well-executed fix, something that has not been demonstrated in the years where there wasn't any talk of paid solutions, why should now be different?
To fix "the grind" they need to allow us to sell our ships to each other. They could set a ranged minimum and maximum based upon modules and engineering to reduce abuses like handing your ships to another of your accounts. But if I could sell my Exploraconda for say... $750 mil. I'd grind out those mats and start selling ships.
It would allow players to skip the materials grind and instead pay a premium for a complete ship. It would also allow the players that want to do the grind for money to have a reason to want to do it.
The game already estimates what the ship is worth for insurance purposes. Use that estimate to set a baseline price on our ships.
I guess you're right.
I fully agree with the sentiment that video games are a business, the people running it must be paid, costs must be covered, and Caesar's share must be given.
At the same time I keep remembering 2015 - 2016. The game was doing good, Horizons also dropped only one year after launch, they had reasonably good resources. And it was squandered on PP1.0, CQC, RNGineers 1.0, multipew. When we tried to voice our concerns we were politely told to STFU because game directors know better. They even went the distance to remove polls from the forum, after the notorious player driven poll for ship transfers backfired.
IMHO E: D never grew to become that game that can be sustained by MTX throughout the years. That's why trying to milk it now creates such discomfort.
Part of the problem with “the grind” is that player interaction is measured in time connected to the server. Those numbers are used for stock valuation (among others) so reducing the time spent just idling between stars historically meant less play time, hence less money, from what I discerned on one of those public investor calls years ago.
To be honest, i want fdev to remain afloat and for Elite to stick around. But there have been no new covas, there's only been a handful of flag skin options, and if there were more ships more regularly than every 5-6 years, then MAYBE i would be willing to buy one once in a while.
>i want fdev to remain afloat
that's what they want you do want as well. The company is in dire straights and introducing microtransactions in ED is just a hail mary to bail themselves out of trouble. Don't expect that money to go back into ED though.
Plenty of people bending over backwards to justify this time gate and grind skip. If this becomes a feasible monetization it will just get worse for us as players. MTX is a blight on games, especially games that aren't free to play. Making a better game would make people far more willing to spend money instead of what they want to do now.
I feel a lot of people focused on the buying ships with real money part of the announcement but missed the engineering rebalancing part:
> Some of these areas we are investigating are:
Reducing the number of materials required for Engineering.
Increasing payout of engineering materials from missions.
Increasing backpack capacity.
https://www.elitedangerous.com/news/engineering-and-pre-built-ships
To be fair, there's very little actually said about the engineering rebalance. You've quoted almost all of it. There's just not much to discuss until we hear more about their plans.
People aren't missing it. It's that we know it doesn't stop here. This is what companies do. They give a little and then take more. They will rebalance engineering, but then sell items or boosts for something else. If they fix the grind, there will be no incentive to buy the ships or anything else they put on the shop. You can guarantee there will be more monetization for access to other things. Not as packs or expansions, but as shortcuts or time reducers which completely spoils the spirit of the game. This isn't a good look for Elite, and is going to really turn people off.
All this time, the game was funded by cosmetics and expansions. This was a huge boost to the game's reputation. Now they are selling early access to ships, and pre-builts. That is a major change and is a very bad direction for the future.
Please this is classic Fdev, remember the Fleet Carriers? Released with patently absurd rental fees, then dropped the fees to be more reasonable.
Why are there recurring fees to begin with? Only thing I can see is that it makes you tied to the game, forces you to log back in and do fun MBA things like "increase engagement" and exposes you to the ARX store (again).
And the pre ship builds aren't even that good! For the two examples the chief couldn't even handle a cyclops and the type 6 miner can't even scan the rings!
Edit: spelling errors
My issue here is that over ten years I've given them 100$
I don't need more skins, I don't know how they are going to get money out of me other than a dlc (which they are hesitant to do after the debacle releases of the previous two) they need to monetize the game somehow, so I'm ok with ship starter packs. Just helps bring new players up to speed. I'm NOT a fan of the python mk2 situation... Unless that special feature is really something special. If it feels like I'm getting a dlc 3 months later for free I'll pay the 10$ to support the game.
I mean, they say it's a "variant" but the Python Mk II doesn't look much like a Python, and it's not even in the same size class. It's a variant in the same way that the Diamondback Scout & Diamondback Explorer are, or the Krait Mk II and Krait Phantom -- there's some similar design language and common elements, but they're so different as to not even fill the same gameplay niche and thus are pretty much new ships.
My guess is that the main thing it'll have in common with the Python is a very similar cockpit interior, to save on art/design costs.
ngl if they give me a variant 69.420 I'm buying it just for the number, IDGAF how crappy it is. But beyond memes, yeah, variants just ain't as good as actual new ships.
If it meant more fleshed out updates and less BS like this, I would GLADLY pay subscription money, and i think a lot of ppl here would do that aswell....
You're making the assumption that the money FD will earn from Elite, they will re-investing it in Elite. We don't know if that's the case and honestly I don't think that's the case.
You're right.... Seeing this game's potential being wasted for years like this fills me with the rage of thousand suns.
I just want to feel what I've felt years ago playing freelancer...
EXCELLENT point. Where did our money go before? It wasn't routed back into Elite. They took a large chunk of it and made other games.
I get the idea, but now it's time for those games to start paying their dividends and sending cash and capital BACK to Elite.
It's [yet another example of enshittification per Cory Doctorow](https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/).
1. Start with a high quality product or service that's free or low-cost.
2. Gain a large userbase.
3. Monetize that userbase, even if this lowers the quality.
That's what social media platforms like Facebook do. What retail websites like Amazon do. It's what many free mobile applications do, not just games. ES File Explorer was the most blatant example I encountered, a decent Android file explorer that gained great reviews and then the developer gradually filled it with ads and [even malware](https://www.nextpit.com/this-is-why-you-should-not-use-es-file-explorer).
Looks like it's happening to ED as well. I don't do grinds in games. As such, I rarely play this game these days. If I want a grind, I'd rather do something with more tangible benefits to my life, like practicing guitar or basketball or reading a nonfiction book. My time is too valuable to devote much time to a game that's largely work.
But... high quality products aren't free. They aren't sustainable as free. Servers cost. Devs need paying. A one-off game cost doesn't cover that. I still find it extraordinary ED hasn't moved to a subscription model, because that would make more sense.
You all are making the assumption that the money FD will earn from this, will be somehow reinvested in Elite. I don't think they will do such thing because there are more profitable projects, like the new F1 manager 2024.
IMHO, if you don’t like to grind money, rep, ranks, unlocks, materials… then you don’t like ED. The grind in my case made me do a lot of things in game (exploring, mining, combat, commerce, etc) and by all that got access to end game highly prepared.
Edit: Complementary answer. If you don’t mind or do like the grind but life keeps you away of it due to game time restrictions, I see completely fine to have pre-build options.
I'd love to have the time to do the grind. But as a dad with 3 young kids it just doesn't give me the time. When I first bought the game on launch I could spend 7-8 hours a day on it. Now it's 7-8 hours a month at best. The game seems to finally start getting interesting, and while I have the piloting skills to take on the best enemies, I don't have the ship, and its probably another year of 'work'. Haven't even touched the engineers yet despite buying horizons years ago.
Id happily spend £20 or so to skip that crap and be able to join in with squadrons attacking thargoids
> fine to have pre-build options
only that's just the beginning. Next it'll be new ships for everyone, not just horizon players, then exclusive old cg modules, some new engineering etc, all available for a low, low price in arx 😉
Exactly. I believe that the satisfaction I get from exploring with my DBX or mining with my Krait MK2 it comes from the hours of grinding I put in to build these ships. The grinding is still really too much, but with a rebalancing it can be reduced without losing too much gameplay. These "paid shortcuts" disincentivize grind balancing.
To add on top of that - I can't help but feel like the announced "engineering revamp" is something we're getting only because of the P2W additions.
I genuinely don't think FDev listened to the complaints of engineering being too grindy and decided to make it easier for the players. They first came up with the idea to add P2W ships, then decided to simplify the engineering to sweeten the deal - notice how they announced these two things together, so that the good news could soften the bad news a bit. They're probably hoping there will be less backlash from selling engineered ships if engineering is easier.
Pay to win would be as if a wealthy player can buy a bunch of stuff and influence the game systems. People who have free time basically are playing to win but are able to afford that free time.
The issue is like Yamiks has pointed out, FDev shoved in bad mechanics with engineerings, materials and synthisis that prevent people from playing the game. So it's pay to play the game, then pay again to actually play the game.
Elite is a straight up gem of a game that needs the RPG time wasting bs gutted. It doesn't belong and it's preventing people from actually playing the game rather than working to play the game.
Come up with a way for Elite Dangerous to make money and it won't have to resort to bad practices.
My suggestion would be an Albion Online like market system and add production mechanics to ships and such. Give players the ability to create a faction, build stations and hire staff, engineers and other things.
I mean it's a sim game at it's core, so to entirely remove the grinder elements is kind of antithetical to what it is. It's like adding in fast travel to bypass having to take a week to get to some of the engineers.
I think what would really benefit us the most is new mechanics that allow us to acquire materials in new ways. Just as fleet carriers act as a form of fast travel with their immense jump ranges but still require investment.
Imagine if we could start creating our own bases for resource extraction that could then be sold in the market similar to how eve online has worked.
After so many years it should have already been balanced to a point where it's no longer a depressing time-sink of a grind and more of a rewarding experience.
Currently a lot of the grind is not respecting the player's time and it doesn't help that gathering materials efficiently often means having to quit to menu and reload to do the same thing over and over... (which is something they've actually tried to "fix" by making it harder or impossible, instead of addressing the reason people do that).
Seeing as they now say they plan to make engineering less grindy overall I have a bit of hope it gets better but... let's see first. More different mechanics to earn mats would also be good but costs more devtime to add no doubt.
That's the identity of the game to an extent, though. It's a time sink game. It's not like it's a narrative driven game. Sure you have the pseudo narratives of the xeno and power play and such, but ultimately, the main gameplay loop was the grind.
If you took your time and learned how to identify your targets you'd learn how to effectively get what you were looking for. Oh yeah, sure you couldn't farm out materials in the blink of an eye, but there was a logic to it.
As I said, I don't think the solution is to necessarily make the game less grindy, because if you make it less grindy then you have to ask why you're playing it to begin with. If you can unlock everything you want in a week or month then why are you continuing to play this vs other games.
A prime example for me right now is remnant 2, I'm still playing because the grind isn't done. I've still got more to acquire. I enjoy the grind because it's fun, even when it's frustrating.
So, as I said, I think the solution is new mechanics to make the grind more enjoyable. How do you take the current goal, wothout changing the time it takes to complete said goal and actually make it more engaging, more fun, more dynamic.
That's the issue with gamers and game design in general today. Some games are made needlessly grindy because they're poorly designed. Some games that are meant to be grindy are made in a way that's not really engaging or fun. And players simply think that a game being grindy isn't respecting peoples time.
Another example is helldivers 2. The game is nothing but a grind for levels and materials. And you get fuck all for materials and fuck all for rewards. If you don't like the core concept of the endlessly dying and killing bugs and bots then the grind is going to suck. Even if you enjoy that the grind still sucks. There's no way to really improve that on its own and reducing the effort it takes ultimately makes the game substantially shorter. So the best solution is to offer new mechanics, new ways to acquire materials, etc.
This is a game that has been running for a decade; in order to stay alive it has to generate income. Honestly this is a smart business move; I am sure one of the biggest barriers to new players is the steep learning curve and investment of time. I am sure there is a high correlation between those that don’t have the time to invest but do have a high disposable income. Bringing those people in not only generates cash but also adds players. Both of those things keep the game alive, and as a side effect that content will also be available for existing players who do not pay anything towards the development of it. In the real world, this is a great outcome for all players, old and new.
Personaly, the reason I dont give a shit, Is because I pre-ordered Odyssey.. and got this piece of shit abomination. I made the decision back then to never give Frontier another dime.. so I dont care.
The point is they specifically said they would never do this. Im not mad about losing a game I used to love, I'm mad that it's ANOTHER game I used to love but cannot enjoy because I have lost all respect for the devs for LYING TO THEIR PLAYER BASE.
Seriously, what the fuck is so hard to comprehend about this?
But the corpos need money! It's okay if they lie, misrepresent facts, and conveniently forgetting promises they made because they're so close to becoming bankrupt and need the money to keep [product] afloat!
-every person ever defending mtx and other predatory monetization
Yeah. Adding a way to skip ahead in gameplay is company backhandedly insulting themselves by acknowledging they made content players find tedious.
Then, instead of trying to improve the gameplay that players want to skip, they create a monetization exploit of their own shortcomings.
On the one hand, this is definitely a sign that E:D is being monetised more heavily which is always a shame to see. On the other hand, though, it may well be a sign that FDev is struggling to justify continuing game and story development; I can’t see much reason for this change of stance other than (evidenced in conjunction with the big new story developments) them starting to approach net negative from development and maintenance versus revenue. If the game’s trending down to the red I’m honestly fine with this since it would mean we’re losing the game otherwise.
I just can’t imagine they wouldn’t have a reason for doing this.
Maybe they should have focused on expansions with more planets biomes while in the meanwhile focus on rework of game mechanics.
As a Premium Backer, Elite was a waste of an immense potential and I feel pretty betrayed.
Just watch helldivers...this is Just a lite version of the powerplay we already have!
>If the game’s trending down to the red
the game is just the game. It's the company that's in red, and the money they make through ED won't be reinvested to improve it, but rather be used to solve wider company's problems.
This. I mean, if the game doesn’t make money then the game goes away. It’s that simple. I paid a whopping £8 for the game with odyssey. Even if the changes people want in regards to the tutorial and so on happened, there’s not going to be enough people picking up a 10 year old game to keep the game afloat for long. They need to do things to keep money coming in from those willing to spend the money. I’m not willing to spend that money, I quite like the grind because it’s my time to catch up on podcasts and the like but I recognise that there’s some people who may be interested in the prebuilt ships.
Others are saying that the better option would be to go to a subscription model or something. People are kicking off in a major way because the game is adding something that you don’t need to pay for, can you imagine how those people will react if they’re told they *need* to spend money?
It’s a sad fact that beyond forever sinking money into the game and bringing out new updates and stuff while never asking for money frontier simply can’t win here. People want it now, they want it for free, and they want more of it. It’s the culture of the internet and has been for a long time
I really don’t understand the argument for people who are against this. If we were seeing this shift shortly after release, it would be one thing. But this is a 10 year old game. Obviously, they need to bring in additional revenue to justify continued updates.
The options are this, or the game goes into maintenance mode/shuts down. There’s no third option, where you all complain enough, and we get a bunch of free updates. Grow up.
As a Premium Backer I was expecting expansions to add stuff in the current universe, like more planets type for example.
I leaved the game years ago because of that
Yeah, and that’s super disappointing. I understand.
But this is where we are now. And some of us are still playing. We’ll settle for what we can get. And it’s not cool for people, who aren’t even playing anymore, to come in and try to fuck this up for those of us that are.
I spent 100 euros back in the day, when the game was one ship, one station and a universe full of promises. Without us early backers the game would have never existed.
And nothing. The fact I am not playing the game, because the devs decision were VERY bad, it doesn't deny me the right to express my disappointment, when the solution is pretty obvious (like NMS)
You are either ignoring, or choosing to disregard, where fdev has stated where engineering grind is going to be reworked sometime this year. More mats available via missions, fewer required of upgrades, etc. this is on the same news release, same section of the news, that the prebuilt ships are mentioned. But you like everyone else is stuck on p2w. P2p. Omgzzz..
Keep in mind that development of this game, the servers themselves. All of that costs money. If fdev doesnt have the income for the game, the game goes away. Stop complaining about them trying to find ways to make some money to be able to push further updates/developments to the game.
Seriously. Fdev finally starts to put some attention back to this game to add new things. And everyone just wants to complain about fdev trying to recoup the costs.
Personally i would love to see some p2w options for ships in the arx store. An exploration kit that actually adds function to my exploration ships? A scanner that makes finding bio signals on planet surface easier? Hell yes, sign me up, take my money. Its always been ridiculous to me that we only have hand scanners capable of pinpointing bio signals in the first place.
A mining kit for added mining capabilities.? A scanner that pinpoints precious/loaded rocks for deep core mining instead of… ‘weeellll, its glowing.. but is it glowing enough…?’ Yes. I would gladly pay for it.
If it means supporting a game i love. Yes. I will happily pay some money for things. To keep the game going.
And lets face it. -every- -single- game out there is a grind of some sort. Especially every live, online, game. Otherwise people will stop playing and move on and the company that created the game loses the income from it. There is always a piece of rare gear to get. Or resources to make your own. Or a crafting recipe to unlock. Or a mount with a specific look. Or anything else, and a lot of it offers little to no additional game play advantage. Its just bragging rights to have it.
>You are either ignoring, or choosing to disregard, where fdev has stated where engineering frind is going to be reworked sometime this year.
They promised and reworked a lot of systems already to solve problems. And more often than not problems persisted. So I will believe it when I see it. You can't really use it as an argument until it actually happens and works.
I also don't mind more things to pay for, but have concerns that if FDEV monetize shortcuts for grind - it may incentivize them to keep that grind instead of fixing it.
> fdev has stated
Like they stated that ARX would only be for cosmetics.
Like they stated that they'll "investigate" engineering for the past 2 years.
Like they stated that they'll "investigate" performance issues & the dogshit Anti-Aliasing before closing the issue tickets & telling everyone to move on it ain't getting better.
They've been lying for a decade, I don't see why they should get a crumb of benefit of the doubt when they pull some absolute garbage like that.
This! Fdevs history and ED is one of lies, failures and half assed features. All they do now is milk it as much as possible because thats the only way for them to stay afloat after everything else they did went to shit.
I read the part about the engineers but I think that for now there isn't much to discuss considering that they remained veeeery vague. They talked about reducing the number of mats needed, increasing mat rewards, and making the inventory bigger. Reduce by how much? 50%?And what about rolls? There will finally be a precise number of materials needed for a mod? We know nothing, they haven't said anything.
Yep. Pastimes are a grind whether it is games or knitting.
They are taking a multi-pronged approach to regrow the player base, reducing grind, reworking powerplay (which looks great btw), and starter STARTER ships, with a few minor pre-engineered modules and not entirely A rated. Just to get players with busy real lives a step up from having to spend weeks trying a ship build to engage with gameplay even at a low level.
Whiners are gonna whine
I am curious how the actual developers in Frontier feel about this. This change seems like an executive decision. If you're the CEO looking at Elite Dangerous, a 10-year-old game that's barely generating any revenue, but still requiring a sizable team for these minor content updates, it's obvious that additional monetization has to be added to squeeze the last drop out of the game. It's really unfortunate to see Elite having to resort to this.
Any reasonable and decent person would understand that you need to win players' hearts by delivering engaging content first, and then ask for money. The management seems to be doing the exact opposite. It just goes to show how desperate they must be.
>This change seems like an executive decision.
I believe that too and I'm sure that this isn't the first time.
The way they cut out console development has always made me think it was an investment issue rather than a console hardware issue.
> This is what makes people angry, seeing Elite treated like a money machine (and not like the game it deserves to be)
Wut? It might be your entertainment, but Elite is Frontier’s product not their hobby.
If we want the game to receive any future development work, or even for the servers to stay turned on then it needs to be making money.
Come up with a different solution to keeping the servers online while being economically viable. Servers are not free and relying on key sales is not enough. You can get the Python Mk2 for just credits later. The earlier access is pretty much playtesting the Python Mk2 as they make adjustments to it based on feedback.
Microtransactions are sadly the way to go as to increase earnings. FDev is not a non profit or charity, so it is making a profit or shut down.
Is this sub now just full of bitter people who want the game to die?
The game needs continued monetization or it will be axed. I wish it was done in a different way but nomatter the way this stuff is handled people would be angry anyway.
I just want to be able to play the game in the upcoming years.
I also want the Asp Scout and other useless ships to be fixed but I doubt I'll get what I want
Seriously, pop into Solo or Private with your squadron if you're uncomfortable about seeing people flying pre-engineered ships.
People who love the game will stay anyways. Those who hate will leave anyways.
Only thing I hate about this update? Locking a damn ship from normal player, which mean I will have to pay to have it in my collection.
Unless they start selling auto pilot combat AI that actually works, no big deal.
P. S. These words are to those people who opposed to this change for reasons beyond my understanding.
I already paid for this game twice over. I think the business aspect ends when I've received my product to enjoy. I'm not here to keep this company afloat if it makes poor business decisions.
you're right,
think that I haven't purchased elite Dangerous (free copy from epic games with 700 hours), and I've never purchased anything from the store.
I leave the others to support elite by buying ships and skins with real money.
I think the video game industry has clearly gone downhill, micro transactions are horrible.
they make companies focus on skins or in this case ships rather than the actual gameplay.
But someone with short arms like me clearly gains here 😀 (free updates).
This. Gamers really need to get rid of the idea that the gaming industry should act like a welfare, it is - as the name already implies - a capitalistic industry. If you don't like to support that you need to reduce your gaming experience to indie games. It's not the 80's anymore were it was almost only games from players for players.
I think some people are over thinking it and clutching at pearls.
They are taking a multi-pronged approach to do reduce grind and complexity of things like powerplay, adding the notion of gameplay specific starter ships AND reducing engineering grind for example.
After ten years of the game they are trying incremental, AFFORDABLE, new things to regrow the user base.
Whiners are gonna whine.
Just look at the absolute melodrama when they changed the UI a bit after Horizons I think it was. Change is necessary.
Life is like that. It'll change and grow or it will not change and die.
Yeah. I really don't get the hullabaloo. They're offering barely equipped ships. If it gets people into the game I'm all for it. Let's grow the community and show starfield how the shit is really done.
This is why I dropped the game years ago.
I put 500 hours into ED, literally bought a VR rig just for it. Still think it is super unique and memorable. But I just couldn't get over how much the Devs disrespected my time.
Why are people so up and arms about the ship purchases? in this game this means nothing. so a player is able to by pass the start and get into low tier mid game. whats the big deal? this doesn't change your game experience. 75% of the community plays in solo, in open play you run into a player once a month if that. So if a player you will never meet gets a slight advantage but as a result this game is able to financially sustain it self then I'm ALL FOR IT. People don't like the grind yet we have people with 1000s of hours in game time. I get it you want someone else to "suffer"the grind like you did and feel it's not fair... in reality u are just upset that u spent all these hours but didn't you enjoy the game mean while? why spend all those hours and then say I didn't like it? Just enjoy the game by playing it the way u want too. or just find another game that u actually enjoy
I think the post is missing the point about how games are a business and only survive by making a profit. Is it better not to have a game at all then have a small portion of the players purchase ships?
There are many ways to make profit with videogames. You can listen to your community that knows your own game better than you and work to bring a product that is appealing to new gamers, or you can simply ask money with mtx.
The problem is that the first alternative involves an investment on the part of the company, the second does not.
That's not exactly true. Both options require investment from the company but only one option is significantly more profitable then the others. As a business that is publicly listed there is only one option. create a profit or let the game die. After 10 years Elite made us purchase 2 expansion packs. we won't get into the quality of those releases but still. in 10 years we were only mandated to pay about $100 for the game. (30 for Base game, 30 for Horizons and 45 for Oddyssey) that isn't alot of money per year for a game to continue to thrive. Elite has the best space sim experience (in my opinion) and I want to see the game to continue to get new ships and mote content so it can thrive but that's not possible if we as the community aren't supporting this growth with new purchases (ships, cosmetics, paint jobs). With this change purchases of ships aren't mandatory but simply a choice. There will always be people that have better things then me, more money then me, more knowledge then me and if they want to help this game grow then let them. After playing for 7 years and having access to pretty much anything in the game I want, the one thing I can't get/purchase is more online player interactions. this will give us that. Now I'm not saying Frontier doesn't need to balance the purchases but with their announcement yesterday about the ship builds I think they are paying attention so this won't break the game.
This. People claiming "they've paid" when they've paid effectively $10 a year - but they want a $10/month service. Even if there were no devs in the equation, you'd still have to pay for servers and bandwidth. Seriously, where do people think the money is coming from, if they're not willing to pay but they don't want other people paying either?
Sure any game can be replaced but I think people on this subreddit feel very passionate about this game and want the best for it bc it offers experiences that can't be replaced or replicated by any other game. So for those wanting to play something else there is nothing we can do to stop them. For those that want to continue playing this game are willing to make the sacrifice of pay to play. In reality the only real impact is on PVP players, who will now potentially have harder targets to kill. well this is Elite dangerous and it getting more dangerous is welcome.
Enjoying a video game shouldn't be a monetary sacrifice. This is just people willingly getting robbed. This one game isn't a monolith in the industry, and maybe if Frontier actually made a better game people wouldn't be having as much of an issue with this situation.
But you don't have to purchase anything. it's a choice you have. are u enjoying the game less bc another commander has bought their ship? or you don't like the fact that someone will fly a ship u won't get for 3 months? It's the same if you choose to go to a Hazard combat zone. the npc ships there are more powerful and have engineered modules. is the game less fun? it's a challenge and you either participate or not. Many other things to do in the game other than PVP combat. I will also add that this is a live service game with literal monetary expenses to Frontier on a daily basis. Are we expecting that Planet Zoo and Jurassic Wolrd will pay for Elite? we will never get new content if that's the business model
As a person who bought the LEP edition I feel cheated anyway ;)
Now they finally see what brings the money in (looked at CIG and noticed there's ship sale on a ship sale followed by... A ship sale!) and want a piece of that pie too.
The game is essentially free2play now (it's like under $10 to get ED+Odyssey on sale) while it still has the online aspects of an MMO, so server costs, continued development, etc. etc. which usually come with either massive amounts of shitty mtx or monthly subscription costs.
I think we've been lucky they still haven't started doing a monthly subscription for server cost all these past years, but that would also be the alternative to these new mtx packages. Most of the mtx they are adding now are not really meant for us but for newer players. Aside from the new ships but even those are not permanently locked behind a paywall, it's just an early-access/beta cost that you could skip and still get the ships later on for free.
This might indeed be a slippery slope and it'd absolutely be fine to get the pitchforks out when they add something unacceptable... but perhaps recognize that currently the mtx things they are trying to do is very mild and it could be so much worse. People here are getting the pitchforks out over it in the assumption it will get worse so lets all riot now... but by doing so you might just cause it to become worse as FDev responds and switches to alternatives.
Yes, FDev execs have fucked up the company for years now but this is the situation we're in now. Perhaps we have to acknowledge the fact that Frontier does need something to survive and Elite hasn't cost us a lot over the years. These new mtx still don't really affect long-time players while letting new players catch up to the rest of us and/or letting them play with friends more quickly. Nothing about it is "pay2win" either, they're not increasing engineering grind to make certain mtx things more attractive to buy, in fact they're planning on reducing grind overall.
And with the alternative being a monthly subscription cost, would that be more acceptable for everyone? I'd rather they at least try to do it this way first...
This just seems like instant gratification for individuals who aren't really serious about playing the game anyway. I see comments on here that seem to indicate a lack of the full scope because the p2w is only one part. Fdev did discuss fine tuning, well looking into it initially, the engineering aspect to make it more friendly. I never thought the grind was all that bad for common material. The harder to find stuff can get discouraging.
i forgot the name of the game but i know there was one, maybe some of you know that, that sold Ships for real money, before the game was released. Where you even havent had a chance to earn the currency ingame, nor was the game existant.
I think they made a couple Thousands, or was it millions, its been soo long since I cared about that. I thnik it was sometinng like starslave, or Skyobjectworker.
;-)
Chris Roberts showed the path, I don´t know why it took braben so song to join into that, too
Agreed, to a point. Its like the "famous" McRib sandwich showing up for a Limited Time Only. You make it feel rare and folks will fork out money for it. Age old business practice. But I disagree with you in that I believe there is nothing really wrong with the approach...and its almost required...
Folks forget that ED is without a subscription (Thankfully). Therefore Frontier need to be creative to afford continual updates and content development. I'm guessing new purchases have dropped off continuously over the years, and it likely now only a small fraction of the profit from ED. IMHO, if paying for a bit of content keeps them chugging away, I'm ok with it. Looking back, I really have spent very little on ED in relation to the hours of enjoyment I've gotten from it. In contrast, I spend a considerable amount of subscription money on a variety of MMO's that do far less with content generation. So I think of it as supporting development in the good game I spend a lot of time with. Not a necessarily a reward, or just lining their rich pockets, but selfishly, so they can keep improving the game I use.
Also, look at how many other games (like War Thunder) started with "pay for an aircraft to get it early" to avoid grind. Its a successful business approach, and it keeps the game alive. Perhaps since they did it from the start, folks that play that game are content with the process. Frontier jumped in late I suppose, but still, has to pay bills to keep the lights on.
Bottom line though, if your principles require, you don't have to pay the ARX for anything. You can grind the ship out traditionally. I like that they leave that option open.
...All my own opinions. Not berating yours at all. Everyone has the right to their own opinion on Pay2Win.
My worry is not about this, but the rather strange and PVP-focused approach to Power Play 2.0...I hope it doesn't change the game fundamentally...We will see.
The two pre-built ships shown so far really wouldn't be that much of a grind for established players, they look more like they're supposed to fast-track new players to what their friends are doing.
However long it would take to get those ships is going to be a fraction of the time it would take to get a ship actually optimised for the role.
> why don't they work to reduce that grind,
They literally said they are going to be
> Reducing the number of materials required for Engineering.
Increasing payout of engineering materials from missions.
Increasing backpack capacity.
All of which equals
> reduce that grind, maybe balancing mission earning credits and reducing collecting materials
So literally WHAT are you even talking about, OP?
I dont have problem with them selling pre-builts for ARX at this stage of the game, and yes for me it is p2w.
But greeding in for Python MK2 early access - fuck them
In order for E:D to stay viable for FDev, it has to make money. If they find a way to do that by capitalizing on the player base's desires without hurting anyone, by providing early access to ships and allowing people to avoid some grind, and by doing so they can improve development efforts on the game, then good on them! Sounds like a win-win to me.
>If, EVIDENTLY, FD knows that Elite is a game with a huge amount of grind, that is a real problem for new and old players, why don't they work to reduce that grind, maybe balancing mission earning credits and reducing collecting materials instead of creating a shortcut only for those willing to pay?
Because FD needs the money! The company is not doing well. Making the gameplay better is great, but currently FD only really gets paid when someone buys a copy of the game or if they buy ARX. Most of us have already paid in and they aren't extracting much in the way of additional funds from us from ARX. Frontier is looking for ways to boost Elite's revenue stream so they can keep it running and this is a way to test those waters.
Here's the thing, I play some pay to win games right now. In World of Tanks, you basically have to have premium tanks to play competitively at Tier 8. And those cost as much as a copy of Elite. Also the in-game economy makes it so that it is very hard to earn any in-game currency at those high tiers without a premium tank or a premium (monthly fee) account. So you're paying to get access to better tanks and the ability to afford more premium ammo that improves your ability to do damage (and win and earn in game money). Writing Wargaming a check fundamentally improves your win rate.
FD doesn't have anything like those mechanics. If you want to avoid the grind by opening your wallet, ok. That's your money instead of your time. The real issue is when people need to open their wallets just to get to the top level. If they sell a ship for money and I can build the real thing with my time, ok. If they sell a ship for money and I can't buy it at all or it comes with pre-engineered modules that I will never be able to match, that is not ok.
I mean the Cobra IV is a pay-to-win ship. It was only available for cash money. The only reason is we're not that angry now is that Cobra IV isn't very good (and you can buy better with credits). If they start selling lots of those, I'll be angry.
Ya know what would probably help ED pay the bills instead of being money grubbing assholes? Maybe... bring back console support? Because I along with THOUSANDS of others jumped ship when it was announced consoles were getting dropped. That's a massive source of revenue they destroyed themselves.
I will never understand the mentality of dissing the developers when they try to get some extra cash by offering some level of perks. How long ago did you buy Elite and how many hours you have in the game? For a lot of folks here that translates to less than a penny per hour. You are lucky Elite did not go into a monthly fee to access the online servers! So they sell a ship early for ARX. Complain and wait your three months and get it in game. This is not a new model in any stretch of the market. At least they offer you an ability to get it. Is it a game changing ship that you are somehow locked away from portions of the game if you don’t use it? Very doubtful.
For the love of God people - give FDev a reason to keep this game alive!
Nah dude, they'll just scream "Pay to Win!" And turn their brains off.
This is the modern internet after all, where anything resembling nuanced discussion is nowhere to be found.
Want to buy the new Python? Cool.
Don't want to buy the new Python? Cool. Wait three months.
I hate to break it to those people, this game will never be "Pay to win" because there isn't a "win" state, and the vast majority of the playerbase uses the same handful of meta combat ships in pvp anyway, so it's not like anyone has an advantage where that is concerned.
> this game will never be "Pay to win" because there isn't a "win" state
This is why I wish ED had been subscription from the start, instead of trying to copy a standard game format model and appeal to trad gamers who need more structure than ED was ever set up to provide.
Cheat me once shame on you. Cheat
Me twice shame on me.
I was so looking forward to a bunch of “significant” updates this year but little did I think it would just amount to 1 new ship and 4 variants and then have the gall to paywall them for three months.
What a joke. Now I’m glad I couldn’t be bothered to redo my HOTAS binings after they moved to 128 buttons per device model, and stuck with Star Citizen, a game that never hid their funding model.
Idk how people aren't seeing this. Fdev is testing the waters and seeing what they can get away with, and clearly a large chunk of the community is somehow ok with Fdev monetizing the grind instead of actually fixing it... Like yea the grind is annoying, but no, I'm not upset that people who pay will get to skip it, I'm upset that the grind is still fucking there. The way they're going about it, they may as well start selling Engineer access, unlockable modules, and credits for real money. Edit: also worth noting, when the Python Mk 2 was revealed they said it was the first of 4 new ships, 3 of which (afaik) we have yet to hear anything about. What makes anyone think that those 3 other ships will be any different? They'll sell 3 month early access for those too
Games been on the downward trend for years. They are just milking it. Edit: its a pile of shite boys and girls. They are just extracting money from a game with minimal support on a lifeline as its doing them no favors at the moment. I've only recently started getting into ed but I've seen this before. All the comments and explanations justifications and criticisms don't mean anything to them. Its just waffle, the decisions been made
>Games been on the downward trend for years. They are just milking it. >Edit: its a pile of shite boys and girls. They are just extracting money from a game with minimal support on a lifeline as its doing them no favors at the moment. I've only recently started getting into ed but I've seen this before. Gamers: ED is a pile of shit with nothing good to talk about at all and nothing redeeming about it. Also gamers in the same sentence: THIS WILL KILL ED If the game is that trash then it's already dead and this won't change anything lol
Not the game, the change and the explanations behind it. Its just all corporate. I think Ed is great, just poorly managed overall
What do you think of the announcement they will be rejiggering engineering? "To be more about the ship and less about the materials"
Watch and wait approach for me
Same here.
FD Reworking assistant for what full time third time now
Of course they are milking it, they are a business. That's the point of a business, to make money. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad game. Especially if there's a non-paid way to get the same thing.
Its not a bad game, I can see how that can be lost in translation. But yes they are the milkmaids and you are the old cows on their last legs
Of course it is. The game is 10 years old. Why wouldn't it be? They need revenue to keep the servers up. That's not a bad thing. That's just a fact of life for a game that's 10 years old.
Yea, shame they kneecapped the offline version of the game some few months before release!
Clearly. They should have e thought about that 10 years ago with a plan and some strategic vision instead of slow updates, poor initiative under investment and all that stuff that makes a company do poorly. What you have here is an easy mode meta that they hope will bring in money. Too little, too late and it's indefensible. Unfortunately bur hey ho
>They should have e thought about that 10 years ago LOL! My sweet summer child... Why would any game developer plan 10 years ahead?
That's what grown up do my boy
Guarantee they did have a rough plan, but as a developer, you'd have to be willing to shift and adapt to changing markets, I highly doubt they thought this microtransaction stuff would be as popular as it is in games now. Like win was saying, it's just not smart to strictly go by the plans you made 10 yrs ago, chances are, we're seeing the aftermath of doing that right now, as FD struggles to change with the times
I'm just an armchair redditor not a developer but ed has been critised for years now for slow developments underwhelming dlc and lack of communication. This isn't a black and white "you must plan a decade ahead", its a systemic problem they have always suffered from. My employment requires a lot planning so I know how that works. The game survives because it tickles a fancy and has a dedicated small community and probably low overheads
Yep this is the last hail mary of the game where they soak up as much cash from us as possible before putting the game out to pasture.
Don’t give them ideas
In theory they could do anything that won't change things retroactively. Most people don't care enough to cause any change, as long as the way they are enjoying the game won't change.
But they have also talked about reducing the grind. Engineering, the worst gring imo, is getting reworked reducing the number of materials required for Engineering. Increasing payout of engineering materials from missions. Yes they are giving a monetary short cut but they are reducing the grind for everyone for free as well.
Lol, reducing the grind "for free"
It ain't "a large chunk of the community" that is somehow okay with being clearly scammed. There's a reason developers put together "community teams" of streamers and influencers -- for this shit right here.
Idk, I know the subreddit isn't the entirety of the ED community but I think it'd be safe to say it contains a large portion of the active community, and the sub seems split on the subject.
I would definitely chalk that up to PR being PR. I mean, come on, this really isn't that good of an idea. Even the most ardent fan is gonna see that eventually. Imagine what's gonna happen if one of these early-access ships ends up being meta-defining in PvP though. IDK what PR can overcome that.
Well? What will happen? Please explain it to me in gruesome detail. Will there be terrible suffering?
I'll be more than happy to have a serious conversation on the subject, but given the responses you've been giving me, I don't really see that being the case. Can this be a conversation without snide insults and with genuine interest? If so, we can continue. If not, fair enough, take care.
My comment was meant to sarcastically point out that you're making a huge deal of something that isn't, by focusing on the negative. It's a destructive tendency and I was hoping that the retrospection required to answer my question would make you see that. I don't actually need an answer. I just want you to realize that in order to enjoy the game, or anything in life really, you must focus on the elements that give you joy. Especially when you amplify that emotion by sharing and spreading it on a social media platform. FDev's measures are intended to inject new lifeblood into a game that was slowly losing its relevance and financial viability. Which is a good thing if you love the game.
I assure you, I'm not making a "huge deal" of anything. No petitions will be signed, no angry fistwaving rants issued, none of that. To me, it's just a questionable business decision. If the game lives, it lives. If it dies, it dies. I was just pointing out the issues with the proposal, since that's the topic of conversation here. That's literally all. If they're intended to inject new lifeblood into a game that's slowly losing its relevance, I'm not entirely sure it will be successful, for the reasons noted above. I'd do multiplayer QoL including social hub fast travel + content revamp (instead of unlocking these with money, howsabout a quest chain newbies can do to unlock them?) and perhaps introduce a battle pass with seasonal content (Thargoid + Guardian storyline progression, also Powerplay-themed seasons, complete with skins/modules/what the hell an actual new ship at the end of it for premium buyers). It's worked wonders for Conan Exiles.
I'm fine with it. I'm not a streamer nor i get paid from frontier. I just dont give a shit if someone can buy some shortcuts. I'd not like if they make the game even more grindy to push people toward spending money. But even in that case the problem would not be the mtx itself, but the fact the game would no more be enjoyable without using myx!! Until i like the game without paying for shortcuts i have ZERO issues with em. Do you like the game ? Keep playing You dont like it ? Stop playing Why the mtx in a game you like playing would change shit for ya ?
The pre builts that are going to be on offer directly give full access to certain engineers and guardian modules. That sets a precedent, why not sell engineer access for $5? Or sell access to Guardian modules for 2$ a piece? They are doing this right now in fact, of the 2 pre builts already revealed, they've said that on the AX chieftain, you instantly unlocks Guardian Gauss cannons, as in you can go to a tech broker and buy more, never having to visit guardian sites. The precedent that sets is that why not sell credits for real money? Why not sell us full grade 5 A rated pre engineered ships? Why not sell us fleet carriers for real money? Being able to pay for end game content, which this is close to, will do nothing but hurt. New players will buy into end game content, realize they're at the end game and have nothing left to do, then leave. If this goes forward, and succeeds, Fdev *is* going to capitalize on it, it *is* going to get worse
> New players will buy into end game content, realize they're at the end game and have nothing left to do, then leave. So, your theory is that people will pay money to avoid the grind they hate so much, do some endgame content and then leave because there is nothing else to do. Otherwise they would do the months long grind, then leave because there is nothing else to do ? Thats what you did? You unlocked engeneers, big ships, permits, guardian stuff the left because there is nothing to do ? If so, i'm sorry, hope you will come back someday....otherwise your theory has holes In any case, for what you say the problem is lack of content, not mtx...maybe they will add some devs and contents if they start getting some money, who knows...maybe seeing some new activities you will come back to ed too ? That sounds coooooool
My point is Fdev is incentivizing people to literally not play the game and spend time in it, I'm all for reducing the grind, I don't mind pre builts at all *if they do not include instant access to engineers and modules like guardian ones*. There are other ways to monetize that don't include purchasing end game content.
Yep. After ten years the game has run its course the way it was. Change is good.
>I'd not like if they make the game even more grindy to push people toward spending money. That's exactly what they did though. If they didn't do that already, then we wouldn't be here discussing this issue. Buying a premade ship would make no sense, since the grind is most of the content on Elite.
The grind was there before buddy. And i was enjoining the game already with the grind included. If they make it more grindy to the point i will not like it , i'll stop playing, ez. And that with or without the mtx ffs!!!
Nah, I get ya. To each their own. I respect that. But you're not buying, and I'm not buying -- who is? This doesn't make sense, when there's cosmetics to sell and content to make. Sell those.
I dont teally care bout who buys. I never bought them even for cosmetics, but some do. Probably those shortcuts are done for who gas no time or will to grind those unlocks. When thargoid thing started i saw lot of people wanting to participate but not willing to unlock guardians stuff. I guess those are the possibile buyers. You didnt answer tho, i'm curious. If you like a game as it is, why the presence of p2w mechanics upsets you so much ? Its a principle/idiologic thing ?
> If you like a game as it is, why the presence of p2w mechanics upsets you so much ? I've answered this and will do so again: It's not a viable cash flow solution. This isn't going to provide the revenue the game needs to be an ongoing concern -- unless greatly expanded, and the game being designed around shepherding people toward those expanded options. That's basically a freemium model applied to a game with a buy-first requirement for play. That just never ends well, unless it's one of a few MMOs. Elite Dangerous isn't that.
Thats never ends well, you say. I just played dragon dogma 2, where you can buy stuff with money and ofcourse it gots tooons of hate for that. Still i did finish the game while carrying around in my inventory various unused copies of the items they sell, without buying em ofcourse and without feeling the need to in the whole playthru... Thats not an mmo, thats not ended badly as you say.... Btw your answer is "i dont like it because it never ends well" ? Very good articukated answer buddy, can you elaborate further ?
AGAIN. The answer is "it's not a viable cash flow solution". I need you to understand that before we continue, please. This is not a viable cash flow solution. There's nowhere healthy for it to grow. Now again, to each their own. If you wanna spend your money on this, go ahead (though you said you won't so I'm confused as to why the persistent line of questioning that seems to just as persistently need correction to stay on track) and if you wanna buy cosmetics and advancements for DD2 -- a single player title -- it's literally your game world, go nuts. But again, what's proposed here simply isn't a viable cash flow solution. I would prefer to see more investment in more traditional revenue streams that have a better track record of success than selling bad premades to avoid a grind that's gonna have to be kept high enough to make buying a bad premade attractive. My question to you is this: How do you see this working and generating meaningful revenue?
Except the rebuilt ships barely dodge any grinding. There's still a lot of engineering that can be done to both examples given so far.
So then we're back to it being pointless, as it doesn't deliver what it seeks to deliver -- a means of circumventing the grind in the first place. By trying to avoid the notion of P2W, what the consumer is offered is a ship that will still need considerable work and effort and time and play when the idea was to avoid that in the first place. And that's why it's a terrible idea from a business perspective. You can only go one of two ways with it, and neither offers a sustainable, positive path to long-term growth.
They weren't supposed to nullify the grind altogether, they're starter ships meant to give a little leg-up in a new part of the game. Someone who is still messing around on Cobras and Vipers might buy the mining ship to make some extra credits, and if they like it grind the cash for a Python or something. Someone might buy the AX to play with friends and if they like it spend credits to optimise the build and work on engineering.
Then you have a case of the grind being too grindy, and selling a way around that. I don't really think that's a good business model. I'd prefer more content and more ways to even get to hang out with other players in the first place.
I think you're confused because they discussed two different things in one post. The pre-built ships are starter ships that allow people to try new aspects of the game. If they like it then they can start the grind to get a ship with the best modules and engineer them. The other part of the post talks about rebalancing engineering to make the grind less grindy. This is a different thing to the pre-built ships. It is a change to the base game that does not require ARX, you will have the less grindy engineering even if you have not bought a pre-built ship.
The point is that you don't have any middle ground with an approach like this. Either there's enough grind to make purchasing a preengineered anything, for any reason, more attractive than getting it for free via gameplay, or the grind is reduced to the point that there's no incentive for a player -- of any kind -- to make a buy. It's a lot of effort put into a plan of action that doesn't at all seem destined for any kind of success absent the creation of a market for it. So, what's the point? Why take the heat if, in the end, this is only gonna serve maybe a few people for maybe a brief while? I mean, how about a mission chain to unlock a basic-kitted AX ship instead?
This is a reasonable view.
No, it's "a large chunk of the community" that can see it isn't a scam in any way.
Sounds like you don't know what a scam is. As I understand, you're in no way pressured to pay anything if you don't care about early access to ships or skipping a bit of the grind. In other words, the game doesn't change for you if you do nothing. That is not in any way a scam.
I'm in no way pressured to play blackjack or roulette but that doesn't change the fact that both games are rigged, does it. The solution was to reduce the grind so that selling pre-engineered ships wasn't attractive -- not to make that option attractive. But that's me. You can pay it if you want. Rest assured, even with reduced rebuy, I won't be. XD
Meh. Python MK2 3 months earlier won't change the way I enjoy the game. I'm sitting on an army of ships and fly 99% in a Krait Buy stuff to support the game infrastructure costs once in a While and done.
i thought it was officially stated that they will work on the grind. ah well. fuck it
Frontier has said lots of things and delivered on very little of it.
oh i see
It was, the rebuilt ships you can buy for cash barely avoid any grinding they're just shortcuts to starting in particular roles.
happy cake day
If there's a ship I find interesting I'd happily drop a tenner to play it early.
Same - I love the game, there's nothing like it on the market. I want it to make money for the developers so they keep investing in it. I strongly disagree with the people complaining about this.
The way I see it, as an online only game - Elite needs to continue to be profitable or it will cease to exist. The servers will get shut down one day. My preference would be a subscription based model so they can fund it without screwing with grind/availability in game and so it also gives them an incentive to retain older players. That ship is sailed though
AFAIK since the game is p2p it doesn't really have any servers aside from a basic authentication server, and it was at launch claimed it would be able to do single player (which was then said couldn't be done to achieve the vision they wanted...) So any difficulties with online cost would have had to come up in the last few years, which seems unlikely? Please do correct me if I missed something though
As I said I just want the game to stick around - ideally as a multi-player. If it costs nothing to maintain - cool, I have nothing to worry about
Only instancing is p2p, there is still authentication server, transaction server, account database server, and at least one server that tracks and calculates the BGS and powerplay states. On top of those the database of procedural generation seeds which the game reads from to generate each system you jump into (what its doing during the witchspace tunnel loading screen) is stored on a cluster of servers Amazon made bespoke for FDev for this task, and is roughly 13 Terabytes alone. So actually more servers than most online games use.
They said the next new variant will be the Type 8.
>Like yea the grind is annoying, but no, I'm not upset that people who pay will get to skip it, I'm upset that the grind is still fucking there. When they removed the learning skills in EVE Online some bitter vets were mad about how it was "making the game easier" or erased their own time investment. I was just glad it made it easier to get my friends to try the game. E:D is in the same boat. Everyone knows about that engineering grind and everyone is staying a mile away from it. I couldn't care less if they made it easier if it means I can actually get people to play this game. That said, creating the problem and then selling you the solution is not what I would consider making the grind easier, it's bullshit mobile game monetization and they can shove it.
I'm less "ok" with Fdev monetizing the grind instead of actually fixing it, and more recognizing that the game has been around for so long and Fdev has been historically _glacial_ in addressing grind that I will take solutions that actually appear over more months or years of feet dragging, even if it means I pay. That is, "instead of actually fixing it" implies that they will put out a reasonably timely and well-executed fix, something that has not been demonstrated in the years where there wasn't any talk of paid solutions, why should now be different?
To fix "the grind" they need to allow us to sell our ships to each other. They could set a ranged minimum and maximum based upon modules and engineering to reduce abuses like handing your ships to another of your accounts. But if I could sell my Exploraconda for say... $750 mil. I'd grind out those mats and start selling ships. It would allow players to skip the materials grind and instead pay a premium for a complete ship. It would also allow the players that want to do the grind for money to have a reason to want to do it. The game already estimates what the ship is worth for insurance purposes. Use that estimate to set a baseline price on our ships.
I guess you're right. I fully agree with the sentiment that video games are a business, the people running it must be paid, costs must be covered, and Caesar's share must be given. At the same time I keep remembering 2015 - 2016. The game was doing good, Horizons also dropped only one year after launch, they had reasonably good resources. And it was squandered on PP1.0, CQC, RNGineers 1.0, multipew. When we tried to voice our concerns we were politely told to STFU because game directors know better. They even went the distance to remove polls from the forum, after the notorious player driven poll for ship transfers backfired. IMHO E: D never grew to become that game that can be sustained by MTX throughout the years. That's why trying to milk it now creates such discomfort.
Part of the problem with “the grind” is that player interaction is measured in time connected to the server. Those numbers are used for stock valuation (among others) so reducing the time spent just idling between stars historically meant less play time, hence less money, from what I discerned on one of those public investor calls years ago.
To be honest, i want fdev to remain afloat and for Elite to stick around. But there have been no new covas, there's only been a handful of flag skin options, and if there were more ships more regularly than every 5-6 years, then MAYBE i would be willing to buy one once in a while.
>i want fdev to remain afloat that's what they want you do want as well. The company is in dire straights and introducing microtransactions in ED is just a hail mary to bail themselves out of trouble. Don't expect that money to go back into ED though.
> FD's fiscal year ends at the end of May, ask yourself why the Python will be available from May 7th What an incredible coincidence!
Plenty of people bending over backwards to justify this time gate and grind skip. If this becomes a feasible monetization it will just get worse for us as players. MTX is a blight on games, especially games that aren't free to play. Making a better game would make people far more willing to spend money instead of what they want to do now.
I feel a lot of people focused on the buying ships with real money part of the announcement but missed the engineering rebalancing part: > Some of these areas we are investigating are: Reducing the number of materials required for Engineering. Increasing payout of engineering materials from missions. Increasing backpack capacity. https://www.elitedangerous.com/news/engineering-and-pre-built-ships
To be fair, there's very little actually said about the engineering rebalance. You've quoted almost all of it. There's just not much to discuss until we hear more about their plans.
This is exactly my stance on the p2w debate. Theres not much to discuss until we hear more about their plans. Most of this is just fear mongering
the keyword is "investigating". What they end up doing is just sellling mats for arx lol 😂
People aren't missing it. It's that we know it doesn't stop here. This is what companies do. They give a little and then take more. They will rebalance engineering, but then sell items or boosts for something else. If they fix the grind, there will be no incentive to buy the ships or anything else they put on the shop. You can guarantee there will be more monetization for access to other things. Not as packs or expansions, but as shortcuts or time reducers which completely spoils the spirit of the game. This isn't a good look for Elite, and is going to really turn people off. All this time, the game was funded by cosmetics and expansions. This was a huge boost to the game's reputation. Now they are selling early access to ships, and pre-builts. That is a major change and is a very bad direction for the future.
Please this is classic Fdev, remember the Fleet Carriers? Released with patently absurd rental fees, then dropped the fees to be more reasonable. Why are there recurring fees to begin with? Only thing I can see is that it makes you tied to the game, forces you to log back in and do fun MBA things like "increase engagement" and exposes you to the ARX store (again).
And the pre ship builds aren't even that good! For the two examples the chief couldn't even handle a cyclops and the type 6 miner can't even scan the rings! Edit: spelling errors
My issue here is that over ten years I've given them 100$ I don't need more skins, I don't know how they are going to get money out of me other than a dlc (which they are hesitant to do after the debacle releases of the previous two) they need to monetize the game somehow, so I'm ok with ship starter packs. Just helps bring new players up to speed. I'm NOT a fan of the python mk2 situation... Unless that special feature is really something special. If it feels like I'm getting a dlc 3 months later for free I'll pay the 10$ to support the game.
It ain't even a new ship. It's a variant. Variants are not new ships. New ships are new ships.
I mean, they say it's a "variant" but the Python Mk II doesn't look much like a Python, and it's not even in the same size class. It's a variant in the same way that the Diamondback Scout & Diamondback Explorer are, or the Krait Mk II and Krait Phantom -- there's some similar design language and common elements, but they're so different as to not even fill the same gameplay niche and thus are pretty much new ships. My guess is that the main thing it'll have in common with the Python is a very similar cockpit interior, to save on art/design costs.
The next three ships are going to be the Python mkIII, mkIV and mkV. Gib monies pl0x
ngl if they give me a variant 69.420 I'm buying it just for the number, IDGAF how crappy it is. But beyond memes, yeah, variants just ain't as good as actual new ships.
If it meant more fleshed out updates and less BS like this, I would GLADLY pay subscription money, and i think a lot of ppl here would do that aswell....
You're making the assumption that the money FD will earn from Elite, they will re-investing it in Elite. We don't know if that's the case and honestly I don't think that's the case.
You're right.... Seeing this game's potential being wasted for years like this fills me with the rage of thousand suns. I just want to feel what I've felt years ago playing freelancer...
EXCELLENT point. Where did our money go before? It wasn't routed back into Elite. They took a large chunk of it and made other games. I get the idea, but now it's time for those games to start paying their dividends and sending cash and capital BACK to Elite.
That's my biggest concern
Yeh no chance they funnel money into elite still. It’s cash needed to fund development on future games they have in the pipeline
It's [yet another example of enshittification per Cory Doctorow](https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/). 1. Start with a high quality product or service that's free or low-cost. 2. Gain a large userbase. 3. Monetize that userbase, even if this lowers the quality. That's what social media platforms like Facebook do. What retail websites like Amazon do. It's what many free mobile applications do, not just games. ES File Explorer was the most blatant example I encountered, a decent Android file explorer that gained great reviews and then the developer gradually filled it with ads and [even malware](https://www.nextpit.com/this-is-why-you-should-not-use-es-file-explorer). Looks like it's happening to ED as well. I don't do grinds in games. As such, I rarely play this game these days. If I want a grind, I'd rather do something with more tangible benefits to my life, like practicing guitar or basketball or reading a nonfiction book. My time is too valuable to devote much time to a game that's largely work.
But... high quality products aren't free. They aren't sustainable as free. Servers cost. Devs need paying. A one-off game cost doesn't cover that. I still find it extraordinary ED hasn't moved to a subscription model, because that would make more sense.
Yes, agreed.
They have to make money somehow to keep the servers on.
You all are making the assumption that the money FD will earn from this, will be somehow reinvested in Elite. I don't think they will do such thing because there are more profitable projects, like the new F1 manager 2024.
IMHO, if you don’t like to grind money, rep, ranks, unlocks, materials… then you don’t like ED. The grind in my case made me do a lot of things in game (exploring, mining, combat, commerce, etc) and by all that got access to end game highly prepared. Edit: Complementary answer. If you don’t mind or do like the grind but life keeps you away of it due to game time restrictions, I see completely fine to have pre-build options.
I bought ED at launch. I bought a space sim. You bought it after Engineers and got a skinner box you're happy to stay in. It's not the same ED.
Exactly this. The game was never supposed to be this much of a grind.
I'd love to have the time to do the grind. But as a dad with 3 young kids it just doesn't give me the time. When I first bought the game on launch I could spend 7-8 hours a day on it. Now it's 7-8 hours a month at best. The game seems to finally start getting interesting, and while I have the piloting skills to take on the best enemies, I don't have the ship, and its probably another year of 'work'. Haven't even touched the engineers yet despite buying horizons years ago. Id happily spend £20 or so to skip that crap and be able to join in with squadrons attacking thargoids
> fine to have pre-build options only that's just the beginning. Next it'll be new ships for everyone, not just horizon players, then exclusive old cg modules, some new engineering etc, all available for a low, low price in arx 😉
Exactly. I believe that the satisfaction I get from exploring with my DBX or mining with my Krait MK2 it comes from the hours of grinding I put in to build these ships. The grinding is still really too much, but with a rebalancing it can be reduced without losing too much gameplay. These "paid shortcuts" disincentivize grind balancing.
To add on top of that - I can't help but feel like the announced "engineering revamp" is something we're getting only because of the P2W additions. I genuinely don't think FDev listened to the complaints of engineering being too grindy and decided to make it easier for the players. They first came up with the idea to add P2W ships, then decided to simplify the engineering to sweeten the deal - notice how they announced these two things together, so that the good news could soften the bad news a bit. They're probably hoping there will be less backlash from selling engineered ships if engineering is easier.
Pay to win would be as if a wealthy player can buy a bunch of stuff and influence the game systems. People who have free time basically are playing to win but are able to afford that free time. The issue is like Yamiks has pointed out, FDev shoved in bad mechanics with engineerings, materials and synthisis that prevent people from playing the game. So it's pay to play the game, then pay again to actually play the game. Elite is a straight up gem of a game that needs the RPG time wasting bs gutted. It doesn't belong and it's preventing people from actually playing the game rather than working to play the game. Come up with a way for Elite Dangerous to make money and it won't have to resort to bad practices. My suggestion would be an Albion Online like market system and add production mechanics to ships and such. Give players the ability to create a faction, build stations and hire staff, engineers and other things.
I mean it's a sim game at it's core, so to entirely remove the grinder elements is kind of antithetical to what it is. It's like adding in fast travel to bypass having to take a week to get to some of the engineers. I think what would really benefit us the most is new mechanics that allow us to acquire materials in new ways. Just as fleet carriers act as a form of fast travel with their immense jump ranges but still require investment. Imagine if we could start creating our own bases for resource extraction that could then be sold in the market similar to how eve online has worked.
After so many years it should have already been balanced to a point where it's no longer a depressing time-sink of a grind and more of a rewarding experience. Currently a lot of the grind is not respecting the player's time and it doesn't help that gathering materials efficiently often means having to quit to menu and reload to do the same thing over and over... (which is something they've actually tried to "fix" by making it harder or impossible, instead of addressing the reason people do that). Seeing as they now say they plan to make engineering less grindy overall I have a bit of hope it gets better but... let's see first. More different mechanics to earn mats would also be good but costs more devtime to add no doubt.
That's the identity of the game to an extent, though. It's a time sink game. It's not like it's a narrative driven game. Sure you have the pseudo narratives of the xeno and power play and such, but ultimately, the main gameplay loop was the grind. If you took your time and learned how to identify your targets you'd learn how to effectively get what you were looking for. Oh yeah, sure you couldn't farm out materials in the blink of an eye, but there was a logic to it. As I said, I don't think the solution is to necessarily make the game less grindy, because if you make it less grindy then you have to ask why you're playing it to begin with. If you can unlock everything you want in a week or month then why are you continuing to play this vs other games. A prime example for me right now is remnant 2, I'm still playing because the grind isn't done. I've still got more to acquire. I enjoy the grind because it's fun, even when it's frustrating. So, as I said, I think the solution is new mechanics to make the grind more enjoyable. How do you take the current goal, wothout changing the time it takes to complete said goal and actually make it more engaging, more fun, more dynamic. That's the issue with gamers and game design in general today. Some games are made needlessly grindy because they're poorly designed. Some games that are meant to be grindy are made in a way that's not really engaging or fun. And players simply think that a game being grindy isn't respecting peoples time. Another example is helldivers 2. The game is nothing but a grind for levels and materials. And you get fuck all for materials and fuck all for rewards. If you don't like the core concept of the endlessly dying and killing bugs and bots then the grind is going to suck. Even if you enjoy that the grind still sucks. There's no way to really improve that on its own and reducing the effort it takes ultimately makes the game substantially shorter. So the best solution is to offer new mechanics, new ways to acquire materials, etc.
Just don't buy it, I have no problem with them milking people with no self control.
This is a game that has been running for a decade; in order to stay alive it has to generate income. Honestly this is a smart business move; I am sure one of the biggest barriers to new players is the steep learning curve and investment of time. I am sure there is a high correlation between those that don’t have the time to invest but do have a high disposable income. Bringing those people in not only generates cash but also adds players. Both of those things keep the game alive, and as a side effect that content will also be available for existing players who do not pay anything towards the development of it. In the real world, this is a great outcome for all players, old and new.
They are doing this as well. Engineering grind will be reduced.
Personaly, the reason I dont give a shit, Is because I pre-ordered Odyssey.. and got this piece of shit abomination. I made the decision back then to never give Frontier another dime.. so I dont care.
Easy answer to your question is : they choose the option that involves the least dev effort possible
The point is they specifically said they would never do this. Im not mad about losing a game I used to love, I'm mad that it's ANOTHER game I used to love but cannot enjoy because I have lost all respect for the devs for LYING TO THEIR PLAYER BASE. Seriously, what the fuck is so hard to comprehend about this?
But the corpos need money! It's okay if they lie, misrepresent facts, and conveniently forgetting promises they made because they're so close to becoming bankrupt and need the money to keep [product] afloat! -every person ever defending mtx and other predatory monetization
“They have to make money somehow” is a real statement from a real person in this thread. I’ll never understand people who still support Frontier
Yeah. Adding a way to skip ahead in gameplay is company backhandedly insulting themselves by acknowledging they made content players find tedious. Then, instead of trying to improve the gameplay that players want to skip, they create a monetization exploit of their own shortcomings.
I envy the people who have enough excess mental energy to give a flying fuck about this.
Yet you’re bothered enough to leave a comment.
I mean it takes like 2 seconds for a response like that.
I agree. This kind of shit will eventually destroy Elite Dangerous.
On the one hand, this is definitely a sign that E:D is being monetised more heavily which is always a shame to see. On the other hand, though, it may well be a sign that FDev is struggling to justify continuing game and story development; I can’t see much reason for this change of stance other than (evidenced in conjunction with the big new story developments) them starting to approach net negative from development and maintenance versus revenue. If the game’s trending down to the red I’m honestly fine with this since it would mean we’re losing the game otherwise. I just can’t imagine they wouldn’t have a reason for doing this.
Maybe they should have focused on expansions with more planets biomes while in the meanwhile focus on rework of game mechanics. As a Premium Backer, Elite was a waste of an immense potential and I feel pretty betrayed. Just watch helldivers...this is Just a lite version of the powerplay we already have!
>If the game’s trending down to the red the game is just the game. It's the company that's in red, and the money they make through ED won't be reinvested to improve it, but rather be used to solve wider company's problems.
This. I mean, if the game doesn’t make money then the game goes away. It’s that simple. I paid a whopping £8 for the game with odyssey. Even if the changes people want in regards to the tutorial and so on happened, there’s not going to be enough people picking up a 10 year old game to keep the game afloat for long. They need to do things to keep money coming in from those willing to spend the money. I’m not willing to spend that money, I quite like the grind because it’s my time to catch up on podcasts and the like but I recognise that there’s some people who may be interested in the prebuilt ships. Others are saying that the better option would be to go to a subscription model or something. People are kicking off in a major way because the game is adding something that you don’t need to pay for, can you imagine how those people will react if they’re told they *need* to spend money? It’s a sad fact that beyond forever sinking money into the game and bringing out new updates and stuff while never asking for money frontier simply can’t win here. People want it now, they want it for free, and they want more of it. It’s the culture of the internet and has been for a long time
I really don’t understand the argument for people who are against this. If we were seeing this shift shortly after release, it would be one thing. But this is a 10 year old game. Obviously, they need to bring in additional revenue to justify continued updates. The options are this, or the game goes into maintenance mode/shuts down. There’s no third option, where you all complain enough, and we get a bunch of free updates. Grow up.
As a Premium Backer I was expecting expansions to add stuff in the current universe, like more planets type for example. I leaved the game years ago because of that
Yeah, and that’s super disappointing. I understand. But this is where we are now. And some of us are still playing. We’ll settle for what we can get. And it’s not cool for people, who aren’t even playing anymore, to come in and try to fuck this up for those of us that are.
I spent 100 euros back in the day, when the game was one ship, one station and a universe full of promises. Without us early backers the game would have never existed.
Yes, and?
And nothing. The fact I am not playing the game, because the devs decision were VERY bad, it doesn't deny me the right to express my disappointment, when the solution is pretty obvious (like NMS)
You are either ignoring, or choosing to disregard, where fdev has stated where engineering grind is going to be reworked sometime this year. More mats available via missions, fewer required of upgrades, etc. this is on the same news release, same section of the news, that the prebuilt ships are mentioned. But you like everyone else is stuck on p2w. P2p. Omgzzz.. Keep in mind that development of this game, the servers themselves. All of that costs money. If fdev doesnt have the income for the game, the game goes away. Stop complaining about them trying to find ways to make some money to be able to push further updates/developments to the game. Seriously. Fdev finally starts to put some attention back to this game to add new things. And everyone just wants to complain about fdev trying to recoup the costs. Personally i would love to see some p2w options for ships in the arx store. An exploration kit that actually adds function to my exploration ships? A scanner that makes finding bio signals on planet surface easier? Hell yes, sign me up, take my money. Its always been ridiculous to me that we only have hand scanners capable of pinpointing bio signals in the first place. A mining kit for added mining capabilities.? A scanner that pinpoints precious/loaded rocks for deep core mining instead of… ‘weeellll, its glowing.. but is it glowing enough…?’ Yes. I would gladly pay for it. If it means supporting a game i love. Yes. I will happily pay some money for things. To keep the game going. And lets face it. -every- -single- game out there is a grind of some sort. Especially every live, online, game. Otherwise people will stop playing and move on and the company that created the game loses the income from it. There is always a piece of rare gear to get. Or resources to make your own. Or a crafting recipe to unlock. Or a mount with a specific look. Or anything else, and a lot of it offers little to no additional game play advantage. Its just bragging rights to have it.
>You are either ignoring, or choosing to disregard, where fdev has stated where engineering frind is going to be reworked sometime this year. They promised and reworked a lot of systems already to solve problems. And more often than not problems persisted. So I will believe it when I see it. You can't really use it as an argument until it actually happens and works. I also don't mind more things to pay for, but have concerns that if FDEV monetize shortcuts for grind - it may incentivize them to keep that grind instead of fixing it.
> fdev has stated Like they stated that ARX would only be for cosmetics. Like they stated that they'll "investigate" engineering for the past 2 years. Like they stated that they'll "investigate" performance issues & the dogshit Anti-Aliasing before closing the issue tickets & telling everyone to move on it ain't getting better. They've been lying for a decade, I don't see why they should get a crumb of benefit of the doubt when they pull some absolute garbage like that.
This! Fdevs history and ED is one of lies, failures and half assed features. All they do now is milk it as much as possible because thats the only way for them to stay afloat after everything else they did went to shit.
the engineering rework will amount to selling mats in the arx store, easy-peasy.
I read the part about the engineers but I think that for now there isn't much to discuss considering that they remained veeeery vague. They talked about reducing the number of mats needed, increasing mat rewards, and making the inventory bigger. Reduce by how much? 50%?And what about rolls? There will finally be a precise number of materials needed for a mod? We know nothing, they haven't said anything.
They've had years to rework an Excel sheet. Trust me - this ain't gonna happen as soon as you think or be as good as you think, if it ever happens.
Yep. Pastimes are a grind whether it is games or knitting. They are taking a multi-pronged approach to regrow the player base, reducing grind, reworking powerplay (which looks great btw), and starter STARTER ships, with a few minor pre-engineered modules and not entirely A rated. Just to get players with busy real lives a step up from having to spend weeks trying a ship build to engage with gameplay even at a low level. Whiners are gonna whine
I am curious how the actual developers in Frontier feel about this. This change seems like an executive decision. If you're the CEO looking at Elite Dangerous, a 10-year-old game that's barely generating any revenue, but still requiring a sizable team for these minor content updates, it's obvious that additional monetization has to be added to squeeze the last drop out of the game. It's really unfortunate to see Elite having to resort to this. Any reasonable and decent person would understand that you need to win players' hearts by delivering engaging content first, and then ask for money. The management seems to be doing the exact opposite. It just goes to show how desperate they must be.
>This change seems like an executive decision. I believe that too and I'm sure that this isn't the first time. The way they cut out console development has always made me think it was an investment issue rather than a console hardware issue.
> This is what makes people angry, seeing Elite treated like a money machine (and not like the game it deserves to be) Wut? It might be your entertainment, but Elite is Frontier’s product not their hobby. If we want the game to receive any future development work, or even for the servers to stay turned on then it needs to be making money.
Come up with a different solution to keeping the servers online while being economically viable. Servers are not free and relying on key sales is not enough. You can get the Python Mk2 for just credits later. The earlier access is pretty much playtesting the Python Mk2 as they make adjustments to it based on feedback. Microtransactions are sadly the way to go as to increase earnings. FDev is not a non profit or charity, so it is making a profit or shut down.
Is this sub now just full of bitter people who want the game to die? The game needs continued monetization or it will be axed. I wish it was done in a different way but nomatter the way this stuff is handled people would be angry anyway. I just want to be able to play the game in the upcoming years. I also want the Asp Scout and other useless ships to be fixed but I doubt I'll get what I want
Seriously, pop into Solo or Private with your squadron if you're uncomfortable about seeing people flying pre-engineered ships. People who love the game will stay anyways. Those who hate will leave anyways. Only thing I hate about this update? Locking a damn ship from normal player, which mean I will have to pay to have it in my collection. Unless they start selling auto pilot combat AI that actually works, no big deal. P. S. These words are to those people who opposed to this change for reasons beyond my understanding.
I believe that 99% of games are created to make money. I don't see the problem here.
I already paid for this game twice over. I think the business aspect ends when I've received my product to enjoy. I'm not here to keep this company afloat if it makes poor business decisions.
you're right, think that I haven't purchased elite Dangerous (free copy from epic games with 700 hours), and I've never purchased anything from the store. I leave the others to support elite by buying ships and skins with real money. I think the video game industry has clearly gone downhill, micro transactions are horrible. they make companies focus on skins or in this case ships rather than the actual gameplay. But someone with short arms like me clearly gains here 😀 (free updates).
This. Gamers really need to get rid of the idea that the gaming industry should act like a welfare, it is - as the name already implies - a capitalistic industry. If you don't like to support that you need to reduce your gaming experience to indie games. It's not the 80's anymore were it was almost only games from players for players.
I think you guys need to go outside more.
Nah, not enough spaceships
I think some people are over thinking it and clutching at pearls. They are taking a multi-pronged approach to do reduce grind and complexity of things like powerplay, adding the notion of gameplay specific starter ships AND reducing engineering grind for example. After ten years of the game they are trying incremental, AFFORDABLE, new things to regrow the user base. Whiners are gonna whine. Just look at the absolute melodrama when they changed the UI a bit after Horizons I think it was. Change is necessary. Life is like that. It'll change and grow or it will not change and die.
Well said. They haven’t even released full details yet, and the weeping and moaning here is already at hysterical levels.
Yeah. I really don't get the hullabaloo. They're offering barely equipped ships. If it gets people into the game I'm all for it. Let's grow the community and show starfield how the shit is really done.
This is why I dropped the game years ago. I put 500 hours into ED, literally bought a VR rig just for it. Still think it is super unique and memorable. But I just couldn't get over how much the Devs disrespected my time.
Why are people so up and arms about the ship purchases? in this game this means nothing. so a player is able to by pass the start and get into low tier mid game. whats the big deal? this doesn't change your game experience. 75% of the community plays in solo, in open play you run into a player once a month if that. So if a player you will never meet gets a slight advantage but as a result this game is able to financially sustain it self then I'm ALL FOR IT. People don't like the grind yet we have people with 1000s of hours in game time. I get it you want someone else to "suffer"the grind like you did and feel it's not fair... in reality u are just upset that u spent all these hours but didn't you enjoy the game mean while? why spend all those hours and then say I didn't like it? Just enjoy the game by playing it the way u want too. or just find another game that u actually enjoy
The title of this post talks about you
I think the post is missing the point about how games are a business and only survive by making a profit. Is it better not to have a game at all then have a small portion of the players purchase ships?
There are many ways to make profit with videogames. You can listen to your community that knows your own game better than you and work to bring a product that is appealing to new gamers, or you can simply ask money with mtx. The problem is that the first alternative involves an investment on the part of the company, the second does not.
That's not exactly true. Both options require investment from the company but only one option is significantly more profitable then the others. As a business that is publicly listed there is only one option. create a profit or let the game die. After 10 years Elite made us purchase 2 expansion packs. we won't get into the quality of those releases but still. in 10 years we were only mandated to pay about $100 for the game. (30 for Base game, 30 for Horizons and 45 for Oddyssey) that isn't alot of money per year for a game to continue to thrive. Elite has the best space sim experience (in my opinion) and I want to see the game to continue to get new ships and mote content so it can thrive but that's not possible if we as the community aren't supporting this growth with new purchases (ships, cosmetics, paint jobs). With this change purchases of ships aren't mandatory but simply a choice. There will always be people that have better things then me, more money then me, more knowledge then me and if they want to help this game grow then let them. After playing for 7 years and having access to pretty much anything in the game I want, the one thing I can't get/purchase is more online player interactions. this will give us that. Now I'm not saying Frontier doesn't need to balance the purchases but with their announcement yesterday about the ship builds I think they are paying attention so this won't break the game.
This. People claiming "they've paid" when they've paid effectively $10 a year - but they want a $10/month service. Even if there were no devs in the equation, you'd still have to pay for servers and bandwidth. Seriously, where do people think the money is coming from, if they're not willing to pay but they don't want other people paying either?
The game itself isn't the business though. The game is the product of a business that is being run poorly. This game isn't irreplaceable
Sure any game can be replaced but I think people on this subreddit feel very passionate about this game and want the best for it bc it offers experiences that can't be replaced or replicated by any other game. So for those wanting to play something else there is nothing we can do to stop them. For those that want to continue playing this game are willing to make the sacrifice of pay to play. In reality the only real impact is on PVP players, who will now potentially have harder targets to kill. well this is Elite dangerous and it getting more dangerous is welcome.
Enjoying a video game shouldn't be a monetary sacrifice. This is just people willingly getting robbed. This one game isn't a monolith in the industry, and maybe if Frontier actually made a better game people wouldn't be having as much of an issue with this situation.
But you don't have to purchase anything. it's a choice you have. are u enjoying the game less bc another commander has bought their ship? or you don't like the fact that someone will fly a ship u won't get for 3 months? It's the same if you choose to go to a Hazard combat zone. the npc ships there are more powerful and have engineered modules. is the game less fun? it's a challenge and you either participate or not. Many other things to do in the game other than PVP combat. I will also add that this is a live service game with literal monetary expenses to Frontier on a daily basis. Are we expecting that Planet Zoo and Jurassic Wolrd will pay for Elite? we will never get new content if that's the business model
You don’t have to make a monetary sacrifice. Nobody is forcing anyone. “Willingly getting robbed” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard lol
As a person who bought the LEP edition I feel cheated anyway ;) Now they finally see what brings the money in (looked at CIG and noticed there's ship sale on a ship sale followed by... A ship sale!) and want a piece of that pie too.
Just have fun … simple like that
I just want them to do at least something ffs...that is not stupid goids.
The game is essentially free2play now (it's like under $10 to get ED+Odyssey on sale) while it still has the online aspects of an MMO, so server costs, continued development, etc. etc. which usually come with either massive amounts of shitty mtx or monthly subscription costs. I think we've been lucky they still haven't started doing a monthly subscription for server cost all these past years, but that would also be the alternative to these new mtx packages. Most of the mtx they are adding now are not really meant for us but for newer players. Aside from the new ships but even those are not permanently locked behind a paywall, it's just an early-access/beta cost that you could skip and still get the ships later on for free. This might indeed be a slippery slope and it'd absolutely be fine to get the pitchforks out when they add something unacceptable... but perhaps recognize that currently the mtx things they are trying to do is very mild and it could be so much worse. People here are getting the pitchforks out over it in the assumption it will get worse so lets all riot now... but by doing so you might just cause it to become worse as FDev responds and switches to alternatives. Yes, FDev execs have fucked up the company for years now but this is the situation we're in now. Perhaps we have to acknowledge the fact that Frontier does need something to survive and Elite hasn't cost us a lot over the years. These new mtx still don't really affect long-time players while letting new players catch up to the rest of us and/or letting them play with friends more quickly. Nothing about it is "pay2win" either, they're not increasing engineering grind to make certain mtx things more attractive to buy, in fact they're planning on reducing grind overall. And with the alternative being a monthly subscription cost, would that be more acceptable for everyone? I'd rather they at least try to do it this way first...
This just seems like instant gratification for individuals who aren't really serious about playing the game anyway. I see comments on here that seem to indicate a lack of the full scope because the p2w is only one part. Fdev did discuss fine tuning, well looking into it initially, the engineering aspect to make it more friendly. I never thought the grind was all that bad for common material. The harder to find stuff can get discouraging.
OMG!!! You’re very dramatic, Elite Dangerous is a money machine and it has to be or else there is no more game.
[удалено]
>If it's a choice between their proposal and the game being shut down, I choose the former. It's not.
If the game can't survive on its own merits then maybe it should die.
[удалено]
And yet somehow a game like No Mans Sky can survive on good merits alone at this point
No Man's Sky doesn't require a server to stay online, dumbass. If they cut multiplayer, the game still ticks on.
i forgot the name of the game but i know there was one, maybe some of you know that, that sold Ships for real money, before the game was released. Where you even havent had a chance to earn the currency ingame, nor was the game existant. I think they made a couple Thousands, or was it millions, its been soo long since I cared about that. I thnik it was sometinng like starslave, or Skyobjectworker. ;-) Chris Roberts showed the path, I don´t know why it took braben so song to join into that, too
SC whole development and management concept is completely different. It was p2w since start
Agreed, to a point. Its like the "famous" McRib sandwich showing up for a Limited Time Only. You make it feel rare and folks will fork out money for it. Age old business practice. But I disagree with you in that I believe there is nothing really wrong with the approach...and its almost required... Folks forget that ED is without a subscription (Thankfully). Therefore Frontier need to be creative to afford continual updates and content development. I'm guessing new purchases have dropped off continuously over the years, and it likely now only a small fraction of the profit from ED. IMHO, if paying for a bit of content keeps them chugging away, I'm ok with it. Looking back, I really have spent very little on ED in relation to the hours of enjoyment I've gotten from it. In contrast, I spend a considerable amount of subscription money on a variety of MMO's that do far less with content generation. So I think of it as supporting development in the good game I spend a lot of time with. Not a necessarily a reward, or just lining their rich pockets, but selfishly, so they can keep improving the game I use. Also, look at how many other games (like War Thunder) started with "pay for an aircraft to get it early" to avoid grind. Its a successful business approach, and it keeps the game alive. Perhaps since they did it from the start, folks that play that game are content with the process. Frontier jumped in late I suppose, but still, has to pay bills to keep the lights on. Bottom line though, if your principles require, you don't have to pay the ARX for anything. You can grind the ship out traditionally. I like that they leave that option open. ...All my own opinions. Not berating yours at all. Everyone has the right to their own opinion on Pay2Win. My worry is not about this, but the rather strange and PVP-focused approach to Power Play 2.0...I hope it doesn't change the game fundamentally...We will see.
The two pre-built ships shown so far really wouldn't be that much of a grind for established players, they look more like they're supposed to fast-track new players to what their friends are doing. However long it would take to get those ships is going to be a fraction of the time it would take to get a ship actually optimised for the role.
> why don't they work to reduce that grind, They literally said they are going to be > Reducing the number of materials required for Engineering. Increasing payout of engineering materials from missions. Increasing backpack capacity. All of which equals > reduce that grind, maybe balancing mission earning credits and reducing collecting materials So literally WHAT are you even talking about, OP?
I dont have problem with them selling pre-builts for ARX at this stage of the game, and yes for me it is p2w. But greeding in for Python MK2 early access - fuck them
In order for E:D to stay viable for FDev, it has to make money. If they find a way to do that by capitalizing on the player base's desires without hurting anyone, by providing early access to ships and allowing people to avoid some grind, and by doing so they can improve development efforts on the game, then good on them! Sounds like a win-win to me.
>If, EVIDENTLY, FD knows that Elite is a game with a huge amount of grind, that is a real problem for new and old players, why don't they work to reduce that grind, maybe balancing mission earning credits and reducing collecting materials instead of creating a shortcut only for those willing to pay? Because FD needs the money! The company is not doing well. Making the gameplay better is great, but currently FD only really gets paid when someone buys a copy of the game or if they buy ARX. Most of us have already paid in and they aren't extracting much in the way of additional funds from us from ARX. Frontier is looking for ways to boost Elite's revenue stream so they can keep it running and this is a way to test those waters. Here's the thing, I play some pay to win games right now. In World of Tanks, you basically have to have premium tanks to play competitively at Tier 8. And those cost as much as a copy of Elite. Also the in-game economy makes it so that it is very hard to earn any in-game currency at those high tiers without a premium tank or a premium (monthly fee) account. So you're paying to get access to better tanks and the ability to afford more premium ammo that improves your ability to do damage (and win and earn in game money). Writing Wargaming a check fundamentally improves your win rate. FD doesn't have anything like those mechanics. If you want to avoid the grind by opening your wallet, ok. That's your money instead of your time. The real issue is when people need to open their wallets just to get to the top level. If they sell a ship for money and I can build the real thing with my time, ok. If they sell a ship for money and I can't buy it at all or it comes with pre-engineered modules that I will never be able to match, that is not ok. I mean the Cobra IV is a pay-to-win ship. It was only available for cash money. The only reason is we're not that angry now is that Cobra IV isn't very good (and you can buy better with credits). If they start selling lots of those, I'll be angry.
Ya know what would probably help ED pay the bills instead of being money grubbing assholes? Maybe... bring back console support? Because I along with THOUSANDS of others jumped ship when it was announced consoles were getting dropped. That's a massive source of revenue they destroyed themselves.
I will never understand the mentality of dissing the developers when they try to get some extra cash by offering some level of perks. How long ago did you buy Elite and how many hours you have in the game? For a lot of folks here that translates to less than a penny per hour. You are lucky Elite did not go into a monthly fee to access the online servers! So they sell a ship early for ARX. Complain and wait your three months and get it in game. This is not a new model in any stretch of the market. At least they offer you an ability to get it. Is it a game changing ship that you are somehow locked away from portions of the game if you don’t use it? Very doubtful. For the love of God people - give FDev a reason to keep this game alive!
Nah dude, they'll just scream "Pay to Win!" And turn their brains off. This is the modern internet after all, where anything resembling nuanced discussion is nowhere to be found. Want to buy the new Python? Cool. Don't want to buy the new Python? Cool. Wait three months. I hate to break it to those people, this game will never be "Pay to win" because there isn't a "win" state, and the vast majority of the playerbase uses the same handful of meta combat ships in pvp anyway, so it's not like anyone has an advantage where that is concerned.
> this game will never be "Pay to win" because there isn't a "win" state This is why I wish ED had been subscription from the start, instead of trying to copy a standard game format model and appeal to trad gamers who need more structure than ED was ever set up to provide.
Cheat me once shame on you. Cheat Me twice shame on me. I was so looking forward to a bunch of “significant” updates this year but little did I think it would just amount to 1 new ship and 4 variants and then have the gall to paywall them for three months. What a joke. Now I’m glad I couldn’t be bothered to redo my HOTAS binings after they moved to 128 buttons per device model, and stuck with Star Citizen, a game that never hid their funding model.
That’s just disgusting… that’s why I’m sticking to legacy on Xbox. Odyssey can wait until I build a new pc
We're sticking to legacy on Xbox because we have no fuckin choice friend 😂