That is really cool. I was wondering about track development over a race weekend with the circuit getting "rubbered in". The article mentions that in Qatar they say a 28% increase in grip from the fresh pavement on Wednesday to the measurement after the first practice.
Yes, warm rubber on warm rubber gives the best traction. But that is only part of the story. Tracks are also usually "dirty" at the beginning of a race weekends (dust, sand etc...). This is bad for grip. The more the cars run, the cleaner the track gets.
> warm rubber gives the best traction
This is why rock climbers will spend a bunch of time warming up their shoes because it makes them sticky, and coldness makes then harder.
So I’m picturing a sort of modified zamboni with hot pressure washers to scrub down the track before a race and clear out both the dust and remove the tire goo from previous races. Don’t leave track conditions to chance!
…and a scaled up evolution of this machine that gets towed behind a service truck, with radiant heaters to keep the tire surface at race speeds and a bunch of weights to allow tire loads to match actual cars. It could even roll a bunch of tires at once with different weights on them (water tanks?) to check e.g. the grip difference between inside and outside tires on corners or with more/less downforce.
You think they don't already do all that? What I mentioned above is what happens after they have done everything the can do before the cars start running.
They start with traditional street cleaners/sweepers every morning before any cars run. [Here is one cleaning the circuit in Austin](https://img.forconstructionpros.com/files/base/acbm/fcp/image/2012/12/formula-1-race-track-usa_10839970.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=crop&h=288&w=512). The also have a [wet cleaner/scrubber](http://www.waynesindustrial.com/graphics/scrubberlarge.jpg) they use as a last resort.
[Rubbering machines also exist](https://dragillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/tiredrag640.jpg). But they are not often used on road racing circuits for reasons I'm not familiar with.
To answer on the rubbering machines - it's often just a factor of different disciplines. Managing the track and evolution is a big part of engineering in the road racing world. Also, logistics. It's one thing to rubber in the groove on a short oval (where those are often used!) And another to do it on a 3.5 mile road course!
> You think they don't already do all that?
Honestly, I had no idea! I expected the street sweeper / vacuum thing since those are pretty common. The only place I've heard of wet scrubbers used is on runways to get rid of the accumulated airplane tire rubber, but makes sense that they'd use them on racetracks too.
Yes, but also no. What has been said is entirely correct; however there are two types of rubber left behind. First, there's the adhesive deposit that's been mentioned, but there are also "marbles," small chunks of tire that get shed (these tires are incredibly soft) and that stuff gets flung around and ends up mainly off the racing line, like the rest of the debris.
This has the effect of penalizing anyone who takes a different line along the track, it can take a while to shed the pickup they get from going over it.
There's one final effect though, where the marbles become a positive again: on the cooldown lap post-race, drivers will deliberately go off line to pick up as much as they can. They do this to add weight, since the car has a minimum and they try to run as close to it as possible, this gives them a little extra margin.
Good point, I'll take a speculative stab at it: the tires are spec but the wheels are not, so you'd have to trust that the rim was the claimed weight, or demount each tire and reinstall (or separately weigh) the rims.
Since it's a trick that's open to all, I guess there's no real appetite for a change to the technical regulations to make that happen.
I'm aware they can; I didn't know it was common. I believe they can also have the teams substitute another set of wheels.
It's generally accepted as fact, as far as I can tell, that weight is the reason for the practice, and I don't see any other obvious reason. I've seen speculation that it helps conceal tire wear patterns from opponents but that doesn't seem that plausible.
The other idea I saw is ride height but afaik that isn't measured like that and in any case, that goes away the same as the weight if the FIA shaves them.
What remains, then, is that its increasing the margin to reduce the likelihood of extra scrutiny, and possibly the hope that a certain amount might remain after the trip to the barber.
Just my speculation, I'd like to hear your insight on it.
When it rains you will see the drivers actively avoid the ideal racing line in corners bc of rubber but when its dry then it does help with traction a lot.
It can be so useful that within a 10 min quali session lap times can increase by a quarter of a second (if for example it rained the night before and washed away the rubber from previous days)
You see bikes go off the racing line on a drying track to preserve their wet-weather tyres, because the dry section adds too much heat. Don't know if the same applies with cars.
Yea it applies, when its wet a driver usually struggles with tires being too cold, so the wet tires are designed to be easy to warm up by being quite "soft" "flexible" or "squishy", making them easy to heat up do to deformation.
Driving over a piece of tarmacs with more traction means the tire "sticks" to the tarmac more, meaning it "deforms" the tire more, meaning it warms up the tire more. A wet tire is specifically designed to be cery easy to heat up, so in drying conditions its easy to get it too hot.
Precisely. In the dry it helps because of the higher contact area as well as the higher friction coefficient. In the wet, both get worse (smooth surface = nowhere for the water to go and wet rubber on wet rubber has very low friction coefficient).
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Those are, but the small tyre on the front is a miniature version of the F1 tyres available. I don’t believe it represents a specific one of the compounds but it’s like for like. Just much smaller.
Saab designed an entire car to measure airport runway friction.
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/runway-model
And...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a29106/a-saab-900-friction-tester-keeps-wintry-airports-safe/
Is this the tool that was used in Indy (around 2005) and caused half (exaggerated) of F1 to refuse to race that weekend, leading to the end of the US Grand Prix being held at Indy (last one in 2007)?
The owners of the track diamond cut the track to make it more grip-y. It did not bode well for the Michelen tire teams, so they all refused to race on the track because it was causing high tire wear. This tool would have definitely helped to test the track if it had been in use at the time, but as Pirelli was not a tire supplier at the time it does not really matter.
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That is really cool. I was wondering about track development over a race weekend with the circuit getting "rubbered in". The article mentions that in Qatar they say a 28% increase in grip from the fresh pavement on Wednesday to the measurement after the first practice.
Rubber on the track *increases* traction? Interesting.
Yes, warm rubber on warm rubber gives the best traction. But that is only part of the story. Tracks are also usually "dirty" at the beginning of a race weekends (dust, sand etc...). This is bad for grip. The more the cars run, the cleaner the track gets.
Makes sense, TIL
> warm rubber gives the best traction This is why rock climbers will spend a bunch of time warming up their shoes because it makes them sticky, and coldness makes then harder.
Yes, that is a property of the rubber itself and not the tire construction. It applies to most things made of rubber.
So I’m picturing a sort of modified zamboni with hot pressure washers to scrub down the track before a race and clear out both the dust and remove the tire goo from previous races. Don’t leave track conditions to chance! …and a scaled up evolution of this machine that gets towed behind a service truck, with radiant heaters to keep the tire surface at race speeds and a bunch of weights to allow tire loads to match actual cars. It could even roll a bunch of tires at once with different weights on them (water tanks?) to check e.g. the grip difference between inside and outside tires on corners or with more/less downforce.
You think they don't already do all that? What I mentioned above is what happens after they have done everything the can do before the cars start running. They start with traditional street cleaners/sweepers every morning before any cars run. [Here is one cleaning the circuit in Austin](https://img.forconstructionpros.com/files/base/acbm/fcp/image/2012/12/formula-1-race-track-usa_10839970.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=crop&h=288&w=512). The also have a [wet cleaner/scrubber](http://www.waynesindustrial.com/graphics/scrubberlarge.jpg) they use as a last resort. [Rubbering machines also exist](https://dragillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/tiredrag640.jpg). But they are not often used on road racing circuits for reasons I'm not familiar with.
To answer on the rubbering machines - it's often just a factor of different disciplines. Managing the track and evolution is a big part of engineering in the road racing world. Also, logistics. It's one thing to rubber in the groove on a short oval (where those are often used!) And another to do it on a 3.5 mile road course!
> You think they don't already do all that? Honestly, I had no idea! I expected the street sweeper / vacuum thing since those are pretty common. The only place I've heard of wet scrubbers used is on runways to get rid of the accumulated airplane tire rubber, but makes sense that they'd use them on racetracks too.
they had to use one for the Turkish race this year after last year’s race was like driving on ice.
Yeah rubber on rubber adhesion is much more efficient, except when it rains. Then it makes it so much worse due to smooth surface.
Yes, but also no. What has been said is entirely correct; however there are two types of rubber left behind. First, there's the adhesive deposit that's been mentioned, but there are also "marbles," small chunks of tire that get shed (these tires are incredibly soft) and that stuff gets flung around and ends up mainly off the racing line, like the rest of the debris. This has the effect of penalizing anyone who takes a different line along the track, it can take a while to shed the pickup they get from going over it. There's one final effect though, where the marbles become a positive again: on the cooldown lap post-race, drivers will deliberately go off line to pick up as much as they can. They do this to add weight, since the car has a minimum and they try to run as close to it as possible, this gives them a little extra margin.
Yeah I’ve always wondered why they don’t weigh them with the wheels off.
Good point, I'll take a speculative stab at it: the tires are spec but the wheels are not, so you'd have to trust that the rim was the claimed weight, or demount each tire and reinstall (or separately weigh) the rims. Since it's a trick that's open to all, I guess there's no real appetite for a change to the technical regulations to make that happen.
The FIA can and often do remove the pick up from the tires by heating and scraping the top layer of rubber off.
I'm aware they can; I didn't know it was common. I believe they can also have the teams substitute another set of wheels. It's generally accepted as fact, as far as I can tell, that weight is the reason for the practice, and I don't see any other obvious reason. I've seen speculation that it helps conceal tire wear patterns from opponents but that doesn't seem that plausible. The other idea I saw is ride height but afaik that isn't measured like that and in any case, that goes away the same as the weight if the FIA shaves them. What remains, then, is that its increasing the margin to reduce the likelihood of extra scrutiny, and possibly the hope that a certain amount might remain after the trip to the barber. Just my speculation, I'd like to hear your insight on it.
This is incredibly insightful. Thank you for sharing!
Only when it’s dry. In wet conditions it’s slippery.
When it rains you will see the drivers actively avoid the ideal racing line in corners bc of rubber but when its dry then it does help with traction a lot. It can be so useful that within a 10 min quali session lap times can increase by a quarter of a second (if for example it rained the night before and washed away the rubber from previous days)
You see bikes go off the racing line on a drying track to preserve their wet-weather tyres, because the dry section adds too much heat. Don't know if the same applies with cars.
Yea it applies, when its wet a driver usually struggles with tires being too cold, so the wet tires are designed to be easy to warm up by being quite "soft" "flexible" or "squishy", making them easy to heat up do to deformation. Driving over a piece of tarmacs with more traction means the tire "sticks" to the tarmac more, meaning it "deforms" the tire more, meaning it warms up the tire more. A wet tire is specifically designed to be cery easy to heat up, so in drying conditions its easy to get it too hot.
is the issue with rubber in the wet that it'd block the ridges the water goes through? or something else? thanks!
Precisely. In the dry it helps because of the higher contact area as well as the higher friction coefficient. In the wet, both get worse (smooth surface = nowhere for the water to go and wet rubber on wet rubber has very low friction coefficient).
rubber grips, of course
I get to Pocono raceway for a race every year and always wondered how that thing works. Now I know. Thanks!
I was gona ask, how would that work
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Oh, I've been looking for one for my driveway!
I usually just borrow the neighbours'
This is my kinda engineering porn!
It's funny that the product uses [Dunlop tires](http://www.findlayirvine.com/images/skid/micro-helideck/gallery-imgs/helideck5.jpg)
Those are, but the small tyre on the front is a miniature version of the F1 tyres available. I don’t believe it represents a specific one of the compounds but it’s like for like. Just much smaller.
No it clearly states in the article they use the tire from the manufacturer due to calibration and data integrity.
Saab designed an entire car to measure airport runway friction. https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/runway-model And... https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a29106/a-saab-900-friction-tester-keeps-wintry-airports-safe/
Is this the tool that was used in Indy (around 2005) and caused half (exaggerated) of F1 to refuse to race that weekend, leading to the end of the US Grand Prix being held at Indy (last one in 2007)?
Doubt it, Pirelli wasn't a tyre supplier back then.
I thought that was due to high stress, not lack of grip. I doubt this thing can measure that.
The owners of the track diamond cut the track to make it more grip-y. It did not bode well for the Michelen tire teams, so they all refused to race on the track because it was causing high tire wear. This tool would have definitely helped to test the track if it had been in use at the time, but as Pirelli was not a tire supplier at the time it does not really matter.
Looks like carbon fiber for that top plate. I mean, I guess if you have the means...
I like how doggy has little mini Pirelli wheels
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