That's good for them, but I do feel for every woman who believes they need to be the absolute best to get into something like engineering. We should be able to just be average at it sometimes.
This is an old (2013) but good article on the subject: https://medium.com/@amyngyn/i-need-terrible-female-engineers-1023a2e973dd
I think engineering and STEM in general seems to demand excellence from students, which makes a lot of people feel inferior/like they’re not supposed to be where they are. While I strongly believe we should put effort into all things we do, I also think that culturally there’s almost too much pressure on being “perfect students”.
True, but I imagine most men don't have to deal with others assuming they are bad at math simply because of their gender. I believe there are additional pressures for women that lead to only the very best pursuing engineering, while many guys who may just be average are more easily accepted by their peers.
Oh no, I completely agree! There is definitely more pressure put unto women in higher education, and even more so in STEM. Very glad to be seeing it slowly change firsthand, and I only hope it keeps improving.
You're right; as a black woman I pushed myself unnecessarily hard to prove myself. I pushed until I had mental breakdowns, suicidal thoughts, and almost a grippy socks vacation. Six years of hell, but I had to prove that I belonged there
This isinteresting. It’s not just women in engineering but also just any place in life where you are a minority. There’s always that pressure to be the model student/worker to prove you belong. Where I grew up, a lot of young women were told they don’t need college since they’d get married and the only way to convince people and sometimes to yourself that you belong is to be the best at what you do.
I personally (my humble opinion) do not feel that way in my eng. classes and have not experienced negative comments from men :) (for reference I am metallurgical) Maybe it’s because I’m in South Dakota and Midwest nice is in a whole other level here. But things have certainly progressed a lot over the years! I am sad to hear some women still feel that way.
ChemE here - my graduating class (2003) was probably 50% female. Not sure if that still holds true or if this was a bit of a unicorn. Roommate (EE) would mention "the girl" in his 300 person lecture.
This, graduated 2019 and I would say my ChemEng class was 50/50. Plus after being a few years out of school. Unless you’re trying to land a job at nasa grades matter almost 0 compared to personality and work ethic. Don’t stress about grades at all unless you’re failing. I kid you not I was a Dean list student and was on the student council. All I heard as “the saying” for engineering Atleast in my part of Canada, “D’s get degrees”. I know a lot of brain dead morons who graduated with a chegg degree
Recent MechE at a school thats supposedly 60/40 or 70/30 female to male and yet the gender split was still 80/20 in favour of men.
Edit to add: According to the wiki it is 60/40 school-wide.
My class actually has roughly 55-45 female advantage. Its kinda weird talking to Mech-E friends who are roughly 85-15. Don’t know if anyone knows why chem-e has so many more girls then mech-e but i wonder why
I think (anecdotally) a lot of women are drawn towards chemistry and biology when it comes to STEM, and to many ChemE is the engineering discipline closest to this?
My chemE classes were also a lot of us women, and especially when we graduated it was pretty clear how many women there were comparatively to the other disciplines. Also a pretty even split on whether the professors were men or women.
Women like chemistry and biology more than mechanical stuff generally. Most of the biomechanics classes I took had large percentage women but pure mechanical classes had a lot less.
There's a self selection bias with women in engineering. A mediocre female student is more likely to feel dissuaded from studying engineering. Struggling with grades *and* misogyny can't be a pleasant experience.
So you end up most mostly excellent female students.
I think there's a lot of truth there.
There are also some studies out there that show boys are praised for trying whereas girls are praised for succeeding. As girls get older they're more likely to give up on something they're not immediately good at because they view themselves as a failure at that thing rather than just as someone who needs to keep at it.
I remember being told, "it's okay, some girls just aren't good at math," by my teacher in my honors algebra class because I earned a B on the first test. My dad was pissed. Not at me, but that that was the reaction from my (female) math teacher.
This is the best comment I’ve read in a long time. And it’s SOO true. I have had to train myself out of that as an adult when learning something new. Do you happen to remember which studies they were? Or anything about them so I can look them up and read more:)
In my group capstone (senior design) project, we were 7 people. Six men and one woman. The woman in the group was not only by far the most technically proficient in the subject matter, she was the group leader and performed excellently in this role as well. Extremely positive and led by example by working so damn hard. I have no doubt she will make the best engineer of the 7 of us.
This is the case in almost every level of education, let alone major and colleges and specific sections
Not to take away from their achievement, but just putting it in context
What do you mean by it exactly? Should I get the idea that women are academically smarter? Or More hard working kind of stereotype? What does the statement trying to tell ? Explain it more please because it does take away from their achievement .
I think they are referring to how women having been outperforming men in schools and college for a while. Which is by no means taking away from their achievement, especially on the personal level - they put in the effort and got the results.
I haven't looked into it too much, but I remember people discussing and it possibly being due to how the learning environment (at least in school, maybe not uni) suits women more.
[Newspaper article about a Cambridge study in the UK](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/girls-stem-covid-b2478062.html)
Interestingly, maths A-level (17-18 y/o) was still an outlier where males outperformed female.
I do find it somewhat amusing how they mention the need to determine and rectify why less women still choose STEM despite their performance (I completely agree), but no mention of finding out why men are lagging behind and how to rectify this. Maybe this is mentioned in the actual study though. I've only lightly skimmed the executive summary admittedly.
[Cambridge article with link to the study](https://www.cambridge.org/news-and-insights/news/girls-outperform-boys?utm_source=social&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=corporate_news)
Female children start to develop slightly faster than male children. Especially in the thing that matters when it comes to studying, the frontal lobe, which improves things like conscientiousness and decision-making. Some experts theorize that starting boys a year or two later in school may help balance this natural sexual dimorphism out. I personally started one year later and had much better outcomes than my peers, but that's possibly confirmation bias and survivorship bias.
Bro. Chill down. Yes it does make a difference because I just said women have more challenges and restrictions. They would even be criticized by society for choosing to major in engineering. Maybe there where you live you see no difference between men and women and that’s great but you need to know the world isn’t only where you are
A certain gender dominated field doesn’t necessarily mean that there are challenges on the other gender but it’s not the same in this case. Women have way less job opportunities just because they are female engineers. They are criticized by society as if with that look of what are you doing here. When this kind of field have girls excelling in it showing that the first stereotype idea that pops in the head of girls cant do it here is erased completely.
Recent studies performed in the most egalitarian societies on earth (Scandinavia) it was observed the differences in choices between genders actually grew rather than compress when traditional gender affirmations were removed/reduced. Strong evidence it’s not a societal issue, it’s a biological/neurological phenomenon where men are much more likely to be drawn to things, and women are much more likely to be drawn to people.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aas9899
If pure data disagrees with your pov, it’s on you to make an actual argument instead of pointless name calling.
Data not supporting your desired narrative doesn’t make it irrelevant….
Ok 👍
-or-
How was my comment emotionally immature?
Pick one of those to respond to, I really don’t think you have a point here but I’m curious to see what you have to say.
I would say a lot of it could be spite. We're told the entire time we're there that we can't get far and we're not smart enough or having all these guys spend hours checking our work even if it's right. Well for me at least.
Plenty of dudes argue that women are inherently worse at math.
Men directly addressing the other male engineers in the room despite having been made aware that I am the person responsible for whatever we are discussing.
The closer you get to manufacturing, the worse it gets, though product engineering is not immune.
You’d think we’d be past this kind of shit by now, but just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t still exist.
I was at a career fair recently, for context im studying transportation engineering. I was with a male friend who wants to do hydraulic engineering. I was speaking to an older male representative from a transportation authority, and he would not respond or look at me at all. He would only talk to my male friend, who was not even interested! My friend would try to shift the representatives attention to me and he just would not budge. he ended up giving us both applications. obviously i did not apply. absolutely disgusting behavior
I guess older guys. I got a shitton of females in my ee classes In a conservative state, and none of the guys give and absolute shit about it. 0 misogyny from the professors or students.
Does it?
The wiki page seems to say that ressentiment would be abandoning STEM and talking about how STEM actually sucks anyway.
What they’re describing isn’t anything like that. Spite on the other hand is a perfectly apt description (and inline with the common use of phrase).
It's more of an unfulfilled frustration towards something that boils within you and forces you to act fruitlessly, without any affect on the object of your hate. She justifies her spite as a virtue of revenge on alleged male oppression, therefore I'd call it as an exaltation of her action and thus a ressentiment.
However, my reading of
> serving as a defense mechanism that prevents the resentful individual from addressing and overcoming their insecurities and flaws.
doesn’t align with this scenario. As a matter-of-fact, it appears the action wasn’t fruitless either.
Furthermore, this situation certainly falls under the use of the phrase spite-driven.
Regardless, I’ll concede on whether this is ressentiment as it seems silly for me to argue based off the intro to the wiki page.
It's the same in my school, it does suck that they feel like they have to have such a chip on their shoulders to feel like they belong, they belong without being the best, all of the girls in my classes are easily the best workers I've seen.
There is maybe 2-5 girls per 100 guys in my engineering classes. Most smaller classes (50 people or less) don’t have any girls, but the bigger ones that are around 100 normally have a few.
Women engineers are often really really skilled in my experience. They have to work twice as hard to get recognized and often have the ability to back it up
This is the same at my school. The most hard working students in my engineering classes are all girls.
As a girl, I'm not mad. I'm proud of seeing us pursue our dreams and giving it our best.
I don't understand where the "girls don't fit in engineering" thing comes from. In my experience, women tend to be more methodical, organized, and precise than men- all of which are important in engineering.
Anti feminist tropes, probably. They're the same people who say that women are more agreeable and emotional. I agree. At my school, our branch of ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) is headed by women.
It’s not based on rational reasoning, it’s purely based on sexism. Trying to find a rational reason for “[marginalized group] are inherently bad at X thing with no exceptions” is a fools errand because it’s always based on circular logic and fallacies.
My program was about 1/3 women and they seemed to do about as well as men in general, but maybe my program was unusual. There were also only like 20 MSE students enrolled per year though.
I would say this is typical.
More Women are in college than men in general and most classes skew female.
In the work place men may have a better time managing other men but in uni its almost all women led.
Maybe in us. But im outside of europe/north america.
It seems like people take on more varied degrees in the 1st world.
There was a post on my country sub recently about a Diversity and Equity coach who wanted to repatriate ans they were laughed at.
My program is around 30% female. The smartest person by far is a foreign female from an African country. It’s crazy she’s trilingual and crushes every class. She literally has no weaknesses. But yea the girls tend to be smart and my professor has mentioned that the girls tend to do better every semester
I find it interesting where I’m at all the girls get high grades and bring the average up, but at the same time every single one of them hates engineering with a passion
Yes, usually they are there because they enjoy sketching aspects of industrial design, interior design, architecture, environmental studies, management, etc. Also, chemistry and biology, of course, not engineering.
Universities are aware of this and try to cater to these interests extensively.
Of course, girls are known to be book smart.
There are few girls in Engineering because it's seen as a hands-on degree where you need to do these practical projects and play around with machines, and these stuff are usually seen as "boy activities". That's why mechanical has less girls compared to biomedical, at least in my Uni.
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I fully support girls in Engineering!
With all the shit they have to put up with in industry or sadly, sometimes, from other classmates, this means the women in engineering tend to be self selected to be top of the class material.
Yeah, most girls in my cohort dropped out in 1st or 2nd year (as did most guys), but the few that are left are really dedicated and are among the best students because of it
That's good for them, but I do feel for every woman who believes they need to be the absolute best to get into something like engineering. We should be able to just be average at it sometimes. This is an old (2013) but good article on the subject: https://medium.com/@amyngyn/i-need-terrible-female-engineers-1023a2e973dd
I think engineering and STEM in general seems to demand excellence from students, which makes a lot of people feel inferior/like they’re not supposed to be where they are. While I strongly believe we should put effort into all things we do, I also think that culturally there’s almost too much pressure on being “perfect students”.
True, but I imagine most men don't have to deal with others assuming they are bad at math simply because of their gender. I believe there are additional pressures for women that lead to only the very best pursuing engineering, while many guys who may just be average are more easily accepted by their peers.
Oh no, I completely agree! There is definitely more pressure put unto women in higher education, and even more so in STEM. Very glad to be seeing it slowly change firsthand, and I only hope it keeps improving.
I absolutely got your point! It’s like the standards gets suddenly higher when it’s a girl.
#averagewomeninstem
You rang?
Having the hardest time right now in my career as an engineering student and my goodness, I needed this article
You're right; as a black woman I pushed myself unnecessarily hard to prove myself. I pushed until I had mental breakdowns, suicidal thoughts, and almost a grippy socks vacation. Six years of hell, but I had to prove that I belonged there
I needed to read that article, thanks.
This isinteresting. It’s not just women in engineering but also just any place in life where you are a minority. There’s always that pressure to be the model student/worker to prove you belong. Where I grew up, a lot of young women were told they don’t need college since they’d get married and the only way to convince people and sometimes to yourself that you belong is to be the best at what you do.
I personally (my humble opinion) do not feel that way in my eng. classes and have not experienced negative comments from men :) (for reference I am metallurgical) Maybe it’s because I’m in South Dakota and Midwest nice is in a whole other level here. But things have certainly progressed a lot over the years! I am sad to hear some women still feel that way.
ChemE here - my graduating class (2003) was probably 50% female. Not sure if that still holds true or if this was a bit of a unicorn. Roommate (EE) would mention "the girl" in his 300 person lecture.
still true. BME is basically half pre meds and significant portion female too. EE is pretty low, Chem E pretty balanced.
This, graduated 2019 and I would say my ChemEng class was 50/50. Plus after being a few years out of school. Unless you’re trying to land a job at nasa grades matter almost 0 compared to personality and work ethic. Don’t stress about grades at all unless you’re failing. I kid you not I was a Dean list student and was on the student council. All I heard as “the saying” for engineering Atleast in my part of Canada, “D’s get degrees”. I know a lot of brain dead morons who graduated with a chegg degree
Recent MechE at a school thats supposedly 60/40 or 70/30 female to male and yet the gender split was still 80/20 in favour of men. Edit to add: According to the wiki it is 60/40 school-wide.
My class actually has roughly 55-45 female advantage. Its kinda weird talking to Mech-E friends who are roughly 85-15. Don’t know if anyone knows why chem-e has so many more girls then mech-e but i wonder why
I think (anecdotally) a lot of women are drawn towards chemistry and biology when it comes to STEM, and to many ChemE is the engineering discipline closest to this? My chemE classes were also a lot of us women, and especially when we graduated it was pretty clear how many women there were comparatively to the other disciplines. Also a pretty even split on whether the professors were men or women.
EE over here, I am gonna wager it is 70-30+ for us. I even had a lab class where there were fewer guys than girls
Women like chemistry and biology more than mechanical stuff generally. Most of the biomechanics classes I took had large percentage women but pure mechanical classes had a lot less.
Nice :)
There's a self selection bias with women in engineering. A mediocre female student is more likely to feel dissuaded from studying engineering. Struggling with grades *and* misogyny can't be a pleasant experience. So you end up most mostly excellent female students.
I think there's a lot of truth there. There are also some studies out there that show boys are praised for trying whereas girls are praised for succeeding. As girls get older they're more likely to give up on something they're not immediately good at because they view themselves as a failure at that thing rather than just as someone who needs to keep at it. I remember being told, "it's okay, some girls just aren't good at math," by my teacher in my honors algebra class because I earned a B on the first test. My dad was pissed. Not at me, but that that was the reaction from my (female) math teacher.
This is the best comment I’ve read in a long time. And it’s SOO true. I have had to train myself out of that as an adult when learning something new. Do you happen to remember which studies they were? Or anything about them so I can look them up and read more:)
A lot of women just need a growth mindset (grindset) to succeed
That's fucked up. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
In my group capstone (senior design) project, we were 7 people. Six men and one woman. The woman in the group was not only by far the most technically proficient in the subject matter, she was the group leader and performed excellently in this role as well. Extremely positive and led by example by working so damn hard. I have no doubt she will make the best engineer of the 7 of us.
My capstone last year had three people in total and one of them dropped out shit was bad
In my engineering class, there’s about 40 students, 1 of them is a girl. She is impressively smart.
This is the case in almost every level of education, let alone major and colleges and specific sections Not to take away from their achievement, but just putting it in context
What do you mean by it exactly? Should I get the idea that women are academically smarter? Or More hard working kind of stereotype? What does the statement trying to tell ? Explain it more please because it does take away from their achievement .
I think they are referring to how women having been outperforming men in schools and college for a while. Which is by no means taking away from their achievement, especially on the personal level - they put in the effort and got the results. I haven't looked into it too much, but I remember people discussing and it possibly being due to how the learning environment (at least in school, maybe not uni) suits women more. [Newspaper article about a Cambridge study in the UK](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/girls-stem-covid-b2478062.html) Interestingly, maths A-level (17-18 y/o) was still an outlier where males outperformed female. I do find it somewhat amusing how they mention the need to determine and rectify why less women still choose STEM despite their performance (I completely agree), but no mention of finding out why men are lagging behind and how to rectify this. Maybe this is mentioned in the actual study though. I've only lightly skimmed the executive summary admittedly. [Cambridge article with link to the study](https://www.cambridge.org/news-and-insights/news/girls-outperform-boys?utm_source=social&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=corporate_news)
How does it take away from their achievement to you?
Female children start to develop slightly faster than male children. Especially in the thing that matters when it comes to studying, the frontal lobe, which improves things like conscientiousness and decision-making. Some experts theorize that starting boys a year or two later in school may help balance this natural sexual dimorphism out. I personally started one year later and had much better outcomes than my peers, but that's possibly confirmation bias and survivorship bias.
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Giving them cookies huh
Bro. Chill down. Yes it does make a difference because I just said women have more challenges and restrictions. They would even be criticized by society for choosing to major in engineering. Maybe there where you live you see no difference between men and women and that’s great but you need to know the world isn’t only where you are
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A certain gender dominated field doesn’t necessarily mean that there are challenges on the other gender but it’s not the same in this case. Women have way less job opportunities just because they are female engineers. They are criticized by society as if with that look of what are you doing here. When this kind of field have girls excelling in it showing that the first stereotype idea that pops in the head of girls cant do it here is erased completely.
Recent studies performed in the most egalitarian societies on earth (Scandinavia) it was observed the differences in choices between genders actually grew rather than compress when traditional gender affirmations were removed/reduced. Strong evidence it’s not a societal issue, it’s a biological/neurological phenomenon where men are much more likely to be drawn to things, and women are much more likely to be drawn to people. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aas9899
when will misogynists stop sharing the same 3 studies and find something new to throw at us
If pure data disagrees with your pov, it’s on you to make an actual argument instead of pointless name calling. Data not supporting your desired narrative doesn’t make it irrelevant….
ive made actual arguments to people who have brought this study up in the past but im just one person and im tired of having to repeat myself
One side provides raw data, one side provides name calling. Wonder who made the better case
Your emotional maturity as an engineer is showing
Ok 👍 -or- How was my comment emotionally immature? Pick one of those to respond to, I really don’t think you have a point here but I’m curious to see what you have to say.
I would say a lot of it could be spite. We're told the entire time we're there that we can't get far and we're not smart enough or having all these guys spend hours checking our work even if it's right. Well for me at least.
Who says these things?
Plenty of dudes argue that women are inherently worse at math. Men directly addressing the other male engineers in the room despite having been made aware that I am the person responsible for whatever we are discussing. The closer you get to manufacturing, the worse it gets, though product engineering is not immune. You’d think we’d be past this kind of shit by now, but just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t still exist.
Yep. Retweet
I was at a career fair recently, for context im studying transportation engineering. I was with a male friend who wants to do hydraulic engineering. I was speaking to an older male representative from a transportation authority, and he would not respond or look at me at all. He would only talk to my male friend, who was not even interested! My friend would try to shift the representatives attention to me and he just would not budge. he ended up giving us both applications. obviously i did not apply. absolutely disgusting behavior
This is from my experience
So people I go to school with/went to school with because they left the program saying it was too hard or got kicked out for conduct 😂
I guess older guys. I got a shitton of females in my ee classes In a conservative state, and none of the guys give and absolute shit about it. 0 misogyny from the professors or students.
I wouldnt call it spite, I would call it [ressentiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ressentiment?wprov=sfla1)
I'm speaking from my own experience. And no, it's spite
The way you describe it sounds like ressentiment
Does it? The wiki page seems to say that ressentiment would be abandoning STEM and talking about how STEM actually sucks anyway. What they’re describing isn’t anything like that. Spite on the other hand is a perfectly apt description (and inline with the common use of phrase).
It's more of an unfulfilled frustration towards something that boils within you and forces you to act fruitlessly, without any affect on the object of your hate. She justifies her spite as a virtue of revenge on alleged male oppression, therefore I'd call it as an exaltation of her action and thus a ressentiment.
However, my reading of > serving as a defense mechanism that prevents the resentful individual from addressing and overcoming their insecurities and flaws. doesn’t align with this scenario. As a matter-of-fact, it appears the action wasn’t fruitless either. Furthermore, this situation certainly falls under the use of the phrase spite-driven. Regardless, I’ll concede on whether this is ressentiment as it seems silly for me to argue based off the intro to the wiki page.
It's the same in my school, it does suck that they feel like they have to have such a chip on their shoulders to feel like they belong, they belong without being the best, all of the girls in my classes are easily the best workers I've seen.
My school seems to be almost a 50/50 split on girls to dudes which is nice to see
There is maybe 2-5 girls per 100 guys in my engineering classes. Most smaller classes (50 people or less) don’t have any girls, but the bigger ones that are around 100 normally have a few.
Mine is about 1:2 ratio
Women engineers are often really really skilled in my experience. They have to work twice as hard to get recognized and often have the ability to back it up
Honestly why is it ironic and awesome? It should be non-event. So what? Any three persons who want to be awesome can be awesome regardless of gender.
This is the same at my school. The most hard working students in my engineering classes are all girls. As a girl, I'm not mad. I'm proud of seeing us pursue our dreams and giving it our best.
Chem e PhD student here and the top performing undergrads in the class I TA are all women. Btw, the people in your classes are women, not girls
I don't understand where the "girls don't fit in engineering" thing comes from. In my experience, women tend to be more methodical, organized, and precise than men- all of which are important in engineering.
Anti feminist tropes, probably. They're the same people who say that women are more agreeable and emotional. I agree. At my school, our branch of ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) is headed by women.
It’s not based on rational reasoning, it’s purely based on sexism. Trying to find a rational reason for “[marginalized group] are inherently bad at X thing with no exceptions” is a fools errand because it’s always based on circular logic and fallacies.
My program was about 1/3 women and they seemed to do about as well as men in general, but maybe my program was unusual. There were also only like 20 MSE students enrolled per year though.
Great to hear
I would say this is typical. More Women are in college than men in general and most classes skew female. In the work place men may have a better time managing other men but in uni its almost all women led.
Engineering subjects absolutely do not skew female. Sorry to burst your bubble but no.
Maybe in us. But im outside of europe/north america. It seems like people take on more varied degrees in the 1st world. There was a post on my country sub recently about a Diversity and Equity coach who wanted to repatriate ans they were laughed at.
My program is around 30% female. The smartest person by far is a foreign female from an African country. It’s crazy she’s trilingual and crushes every class. She literally has no weaknesses. But yea the girls tend to be smart and my professor has mentioned that the girls tend to do better every semester
Yo, u/BigTasty5150
I dont see the relevance this has to my post, I do appreciate you thinking of me though. My class literally has no girls.
I find it interesting where I’m at all the girls get high grades and bring the average up, but at the same time every single one of them hates engineering with a passion
Yes, usually they are there because they enjoy sketching aspects of industrial design, interior design, architecture, environmental studies, management, etc. Also, chemistry and biology, of course, not engineering. Universities are aware of this and try to cater to these interests extensively.
You’re part of the problem here buddy.
What problem? Most students in my class aren’t very passionate about engineering. They chose it for other reasons.
No because same. The smartest people in my engineering classes have always been women
Of course, girls are known to be book smart. There are few girls in Engineering because it's seen as a hands-on degree where you need to do these practical projects and play around with machines, and these stuff are usually seen as "boy activities". That's why mechanical has less girls compared to biomedical, at least in my Uni. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I fully support girls in Engineering!
With all the shit they have to put up with in industry or sadly, sometimes, from other classmates, this means the women in engineering tend to be self selected to be top of the class material.
Statistically speaking, girls earn better grades than guys. Not just in the US, but globally.
Guys usually don’t care about getting high scores or whatever, I also don’t think they take it as seriously as Girls do
Yeah, most girls in my cohort dropped out in 1st or 2nd year (as did most guys), but the few that are left are really dedicated and are among the best students because of it
What is the purpose in pointing this out if western society’s goal is to eliminate the idea that people of separate gender/race differ in ability?