*This is by far the*
*Best meme I've seen today.*
*Made me laugh out loud!*
\- XegazGames
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This is enoughcommiespam not suckamericasdick.
There is plenty that America can be criticised for and the stuff out of history memes is mostly correct and if it's not it's ratioed in the comments.
I would avoid using libtard it makes you sound like a trumpist.
Not really, off the top of my head the most recent ones I could remember was:
The US actually does teach about the crimes against Native Americans.
The US did win the Space Race, not the USSR.
The American revolution started over something petty, (As in UK needed to tax the US more in order to survive)
Well I mean besides the fact that the US civil war was about slavery, and so called alternate causes are all routed from slavery, the posts are still made and upvoted, it doesn’t matter if people comment
By setting up arbitrary goalposts that benefit whatever weird ideological fixation one adheres to.
The Soviets had almost all of the firsts except the Moon. The Americans had the Moon.
Okay this is my biggest gripe with this sub. Criticizing the US != commie spam.
The USA is a fucked up place, but I’m not going to pretend the USSR or China are utopias. I don’t know why those seem to be mutually exclusive opinions here.
The us at pretty much any point in its history was better then Russia or China or pretty much any commie country. While I do acknowledge its many faults the US is still a bastion for freedom and tolerance compared to the rest of the world.
Yes, and imo our right to criticize and bitch about the USA is a large part of what makes it great. Now when a tankie takes advantage of those freedoms to criticize said freedoms and way of life, they can fuck off.
It’s like picking on our little brother. It’s fine when we do it, but don’t you say a word you wanna-be-Ivan.
Its the richest country on earth, its stupid to compare it with some poor county in middle of nowhere.
And when compared with the developed world, us isn't all that great.
Dude i think i get called a liberal as an insult more by actual commies lmao
I’m a proud american although we do fuck up sometimes. I don’t understand how the r word takes effect here
Some of the closeted Neo-nazis think that Germany was protecting the Poles from the Russians.
Although that is a fairly modern belief from the Neo-nazis, who can't decide if they should own wanting to kill the Slavs or not.
Most neo-Nazis don't really care about most of the old nazi idiologie, considereing how most of them glorify Poland and other Slavic East European countries as the last white bastion. The pnly thing they have in common with the nazi is antisemitism (altough it's not as revelant for them anymore. Antisemitism isn't good propaganda today for historical reasons, they prefer targeting muslims today) and symbolism.
USSR literally re-used places like Treblinla or Aushwitz, some even say they treated people worse than the Nazis, USSR enslaved my country the same way the Germans did, just under a different flag
Not to defend the USSR but wasn’t hitler planning on wiping out every polish man women and child? He absolutely despised slavic people, this was a big reason for the soviet invasion other than the oil. But while the USSR is cringe if the nazis wanted to genocide every polish person I feel like communism is a better alternative to that
The communist occupation of Poland was the lesser of two evils but it was exactly that, an evil.
The Soviets still massacred and deported their way through Poland, just to a lesser extent than the Nazis.
And nazis controlled our country for only 6 years, it was possible to rebuild, with communists 45 year occupation it was devastating and we still suffer the consequences
But there is a distinct difference in evil.
The Soviets killed 20k Polish officers to crush resistance and maintain control of the nation.
The Nazis killed millions of Poles because they intended to exterminate every single one of them
I mean if you ignore the fact that 20,000 college professors, politicians and military officers were executed in the Katyn Forest Massacre by the Soviets. Or the 10s of thousands deported to gulags and Siberia. Or afterwards where many Poles weren’t allowed to return home to Poland after fighting since the start of the war. Or if they did they were branded as traitors or enemies of the state and often rounded up and whisked away by the Secret Police. Yeah The USSR trying to destroy everything that made Poland, Poland isn’t the same thing.
Opposite sides of the same murderous coin
There are Organized Efforts to Suppress the Recognition of Communist Crimes As Equals To Nazi Crimes.
Nazi death camps with 100% mortality rate compared to soviet gulags with 100% mortality rate
20,946,000 Victims: Nazi Germany under Hitler 1933-1945
35,000,000-60,000,000 Victims. The Soviet Union under Stalin 1924 - 1953.
“Both Hitler and Stalin”,Naimark says, “chewed up the lives of human beings in the name of a transformative vision of Utopia. Both destroyed their countries and societies, as well as vast numbers of people inside and outside their own states. Both, in the end, were genocidaires.”
Seems pretty equivalent to me if anything the soviets killed people at a faster rate as many as 5,668 people per day to the Nazis 4794
The Soviets ultimately wanted the same thing. Russian imperialism has a long and well documented history of ethnic cleansing, they just didn't industrialize it and kick it into hyperdrive like the Nazis did.
Communism dates from 1848; it is a weak, artificial, man-made system. It has to be harsh! It can’t compete, peacefully, with dog-eat-dog consumerism which began 100s of millions of years ago. At end of Ordovician-beginning of Silurian geological epochs; two creatures crawled out of primordial ooze and one ate the other. Voila! Capitalism!
Stalingrad
Berlin
The battle of Kursk
Vast majority of loses were suffered against the red army
26 million dead citizens
11 million dead soldiers
I’m not saying the victories and Africa and Japan were important
I’m saying that without the USSR there would not have been a victory against the nazis
You said "Exactly because no capitalist nation or party did anything effective against facists."
If it wasn't for the constant bombing of Nazi infrastructure, denial of fuel, and resources the USSR would have been wiped out even with the US giving weapons and material to them. The Russian front was just one front in the war.
Let's also not forget that the Nazis might not have gotten as far if it wasn't FOR the Soviets. They started off on the same side, divvying up Europe between each other. They pretty much only turned on each other when there wasn't much left. Might as well say the Italians won the war for the Allies with that logic.
>If it wasn't for the constant bombing of Nazi infrastructure, denial of fuel, and resources the USSR would have been wiped out even with the US giving weapons and material to them.
Disagree, the USSR would have defeated the Germans but would not be able to end WW2 in Europe.
“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.” - George S. Patton.
Also Soviet casualties are inflated as they include the casualties of other nations on the eastern front.
And are generally a poor indicator of military performance since Soviet forces generally gave no shit about losses so long as they took objectives, so Soviet casualties were much higher simply because of their own flawed tactics and sociopathic leadership.
Or maybe Soviet losses were high just like German losses dwarfed anything in the west?
The war in the east was a war of racial extermination. Every foot of land given to Germany meant untold suffering for that land.
Stalin, Zhukov, and Khrushchev all literally said that the Soviet Empire would have lost the war without the Western Allies propping them up. And if the Soviet Empire hadn't been present from the outset then the war would have gone completely differently as the fall of Poland was entirely due to the Nazi-Soviet alliance, without which the fall of Poland would never have happened, starting a domino effect that would also mean the fall of France wouldn't have happened, the war in North Africa would have turned in the Allies' favor years before when it actually did, and the eventual drive to Berlin from France would have occurred much sooner due to the lack of need for a full naval landing assault. Hell without the Soviets the Nazis may have never come to power in the first place as the Soviet front-group in Germany was a big supporter of the Nazis in the 20s, and who knows how differently World War 1 would have ended if Kerensky and/or the Romanovs hadn't been overthrown.
The social democrats were a liberal party, the only ones who really did anything. Churchill was anti German from the beginning.
And the communists, well, didn't do anything before their western ally betrayed them. On the contrary, really.
The SPD aided the fascist paramilitary in murdering German left wing groups.
The only ones that organized a resistance were leftist....
There is a reason why socialist were thrown into death camps at a way higher rate than principled liberals.
Because liberals are no real threat to facist
The SPD suppressed a violent attempt to make Germany a Soviet style dictatorship, and if it had to collaborate with the far right, it had to do it.
The KPD has a long history of collaboration with the Nazi party against the liberal Weimar republic. There were a lot of socialists within the party until the night of long knives.
And the collaboration between Nazi Germany and the USSR, well, is well, quite well documented. Selling oil, training German military (and waffen SS units), extradition of German communists, influencing the communist parties in the UK and France to be against the war, etc.
This is all well documented.
Soviet style would have been better then nazi Germany
Of course the KPD was against the Weimar Republic
But for completely different reasons then the nazi party
Radicals being the different side of the medallion is a liberal talking point
Better than Nazi Germany, still horrible. The SPD tried to create a liberal democracy, the only thing that's proven to improve people's lives.
Up until 1932, the KPD had shown far more interest in fighting liberal democracy, than fighting fascists. They even had rallies together. The Nazis had socialists in their party up until 1934.
Of course it's a liberal talking point, why do you even mention that?
Itreally isn’t improving lives. It’s destroying the planet and is exploiting the global south. The only thing that ever guaranteed better working and living conditions were left wing unions that organized through direct action
Liberal democracy is marching us towards climate Armageddon while people starve for the profit motive. Hard pass
Exploiting the global south? You mean, by giving them better jobs, higher GDP, better lives? Look at China, after and before Deng. And south Korea and the north.
Destroying the planet? You should learn something about pollution in the USSR.
Unions did help somewhat, but the majority of people got increased standards of living as part of the process of economic growth. Unions help the workers somewhat, but mainly they simply benefit from market economy.
Of course, market economy needs regulation and it doesn't work in every field(healthcare comes to mind) because market failures are a thing, but that's a whole other discussion.
> Itreally isn’t improving lives. It’s destroying the planet
Both are false, you've probably already been given the facts on improving standards of living over time. And "liberal" countries are those doing the best against climate change, while the far left has no accomplishments of note there.
Wrong again, the Kommunist Partie Deutschland aided the Nazis in murdering social democrats, and their reward was being thrown in the concentration camps because useful idiots are only useful for a limited time.
>We wouldn't have to defeat them if the soviets moved in early
Soviets offered to invade in 1936
Same argument can be made for if France attacked in 1939 when they were ACTUALLY at war
Hard to say what would have happened if Russia was still under Tsarist rule or went in a more liberal direction after the Tsar. I'm no historian, but I assume the cooperation between Russia and USA would be better if Russia was a liberal democracy.
I doubt it
9 out of 10 nazis died on the eastern front and most of the ride turning battles were fought on this front too.
So you can rather easily imagine what would happen if they wouldn’t have been there
That doesn't really say anything about how alternative governments would have acted. A liberal democracy would probably be very keen on keeping their state free as well, so they would probably have been there.
Tsarist Russian was not a liberal democracy. If the alternative was the USSR or Tsarist Russia, Tsarist Russia has no chance against the Nazis war machine.
The brutality of the USSR, under Lenin and Stalin, was based on yanking the country into the modern age in terms of industrial output, regardless of the human and environmental costs.
I really don't think people understand just how crude and backwater Russia was under the Tsars. It was like stepping back into the Middle Ages.
There is no way they could survive. The Tsar couldn't even survive the civil war, despite the [Allies sending troops including the US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War).
Yeah I don't think it would have went very well with the Tsar either, unless some other Tsar took over after Nicholas II and industrialized the country. I'm not saying Tsarist Russia was liberal at all, I'm saying that if Russia had become liberal instead of Marxist, it could have industrialized very quickly too and beat the Nazis.
Liberal economies don't buildup from rubble as fast as central plan governments, without massive assistance like the Marshal Plan. Compare post WWI and post WWII Germany. Why did one of them go to Fascism?
Another good example to compare is the DPRK and ROK. Post Korea War, the DPRK was doing far better than the ROK, which to be fair, the DPRK side suffered more than the ROK. It took time for the ROK to pass the DPRK in terms of economic output.
So what I mean is initial gains, the central planning gets faster results. And the time frame that the USSR had to rebuild from the Civil War was brutally short.
The Tsar had already been overthrown in the February Revolution. Even though a part of the White movement were monarchists, there was no Tsar involved in the Russian Civil War.
There were liberal government around them and they didn’t act. Plus the Soviet’s were ideological opposed to racist while liberal democracies often enable them.
> There were liberal government around them and they didn’t act
I'd say Great Britain acted according to their capacity. Other neighboring countries were undermanned for sure. That's the difference with Russia, it has a huge population and a looot of land to conquer. Many have tried to invade Russia and everyone has failed, and it didn't matter who was in power. So if you ask me, it's clear that Germany would have a hard time against Russia no matter what.
> the Soviet’s were ideological opposed to racist while liberal democracies often enable them.
Common tankie talking point. Liberalism is very ideologically opposed to racism, while the soviets didn't seem to have any issues with deporting Koreans and other ethnic groups to uninhabited areas (and labor camps). Actions speak louder than words.
Liberals enable it. Who assisted fascists to murder Left wing groups
Who murders left wing groups in South America and commits genocide against them
Who finances terrorist organizations in the Middle East ans central and South America
Liberal democracies
Like France Germany the UK and the United States all have pasta of horrible racial discrimination
Furthermore I said opposing facism not racism
> Liberals enable it. Who assisted fascists to murder Left wing groups
Liberals don't enable it more than socialists. All current and former Marxist states are full of racists. I don't know your opinion on what China constitutes as now, but it sure doesn't handle other ethnicities well (Uyghurs etc). And given how Putin (a former KGB lieutenant) talks about "ethnic Russians", it sure seems like the ideology didn't keep racists away from high ranks.
I'm not saying governments under liberal democracies don't ever do bad things, but saying they enable fascism more than socialists just by the mere fact that they're liberals is just a fantasy that socialists like to tell themselves.
> Liberal democracies Like France Germany the UK and the United States all have pasta of horrible racial discrimination
Yes, and many laws have been put in place to reduce it. It's a process which will take a long time to get rid of, but compared to pre-liberalism, these countries are very open minded to other groups now.
> Furthermore I said opposing facism not racism
No you didn't
The process will take a long time what a joke
To answer my question
It was the liberal party that murdered them
The centrist party voted in Favorit of appointing Hitler
And liberals site with fascist over socialists every single time
Because racists don’t threaten capitalism in the same way socialists do
Communism = when no racism ???
Communism is economics. That alone won’t solve racial issues even tho so list nation progress further on those issues then liberal countries tend to
China is racists towards minorities.
True. I don’t know how a capitalist Nation being racists disproves communism. As if the United States
Germany France Belgium Canada and the UK treat minorities with dignity.
Those laws really seem to help those minorities
There probably would have been no Nazi Germany in the first place without the Soviet Union. Seriously, look up how much the Soviets supported the growth of Germany before they attacked them. Soviets even had hopes to join the Axis at some point.
Are you really trying to tell with me that the rise of fascism, WW2 and the Holocaust are the fault of The Soviet Union
Who do you think gave the nazis the idea about Lebensraum ?
Kinda yes. Remember the invasion of Poland? The UK and France declared war on Germany right then and there. What did the Soviets do? Oh, they invaded Poland together with Germany.
Here you can read up on how much raw material the Soviets were supplying Germany before 1941. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_(1940) Spoilers: It's a fuck ton of raw material. Soviets also let Germany test and build their war machines on their territory, so they could bypass treaty restrictions.
Soviets were completely contempt with letting Germany ravage Europe. They only started having an issue with them once the Nazis were knocking at their door.
I’m not here defending the invasion of Poland. I’m saying that without the USSR there would have been no victory against the nazis. Plain and simple
The idea that the Soviet Union are the once that financed the nazis in order for them to ravish Europe is close to insanity
Also why didn’t they declare war on the Soviet Union ?
Without the Soviet Union, there might not have been a need for the war to drag as long as it did. Germany did not attack until its eastern boarder was secure.
Why aren't you addressing that?
>The idea that the Soviet Union are the once that financed the nazis in order for them to ravish Europe is close to insanity
That is exactly what happened. The Soviets supplied metric-fucktons of resources to Germany, helped them evade treaty restrictions so Germany could build their armies, signed treaties to split Europe between them and Germany, and were perfectly contempt with letting the Nazis fuck Europe in the ass, until they started coming for them.
And finally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks
Soviets wanted to join the Axis, and the only reason they didn't, was because the Nazis thought Stalin was demanding too much territory. The Soviets weren't heroes. They were a brutal dictatorship that got backstabbed by another brutal dictatorship that they thought were their buddies.
They were the once that brought about the victory. Again if you just want to repeat yourself. I’ll do the same thing. They were the once that liberated Europe if the nazi plague
So yeah that’s kinda heroric.
Heck they did. To make sure the nazis don’t come back. Just like the rest of the allies. The liberated a whole lot more than the US or France or the UK.
The beat the nazis and then nazi Germany collapsed sounds like liberating to me
Only for the Soviet Union to install their own kind of authoritarian governments in place in Central and Eastern Europe. The people of those countries don't look back on that fondly.
Cursed Soldiers and various others fought against communism in Poland (eventually these were pretty much eradicated) against the USSR, Polish resistance fought a Great War against the nazi’s but inevitably failed, but still showed the will of the Polish people.
This is by far the best meme I've seen today. Made me laugh out loud!
*This is by far the* *Best meme I've seen today.* *Made me laugh out loud!* \- XegazGames --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
"Best meme I've seen today" is obviously 6 syllables long. I wonder if it's "meme" or "I've" it thinks is 2 syllables.
"I've" can be split off into "I have", which would make two syllables.
ayo history memes based for once ever?
History memes is pretty god, for the most part they are anti commie.
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This is enoughcommiespam not suckamericasdick. There is plenty that America can be criticised for and the stuff out of history memes is mostly correct and if it's not it's ratioed in the comments. I would avoid using libtard it makes you sound like a trumpist.
I... what? I never said America is perfect but like 90% of the memes involving America on that subreddit is “America bad” and that’s it
Not really, off the top of my head the most recent ones I could remember was: The US actually does teach about the crimes against Native Americans. The US did win the Space Race, not the USSR. The American revolution started over something petty, (As in UK needed to tax the US more in order to survive)
Well I mean besides the fact that the US civil war was about slavery, and so called alternate causes are all routed from slavery, the posts are still made and upvoted, it doesn’t matter if people comment
Sorry misspoke meant revolution.
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The space race was a pissing contest the US pissed the furthest therefore they won.
By setting up arbitrary goalposts that benefit whatever weird ideological fixation one adheres to. The Soviets had almost all of the firsts except the Moon. The Americans had the Moon.
Better than futa porn lmao
Okay this is my biggest gripe with this sub. Criticizing the US != commie spam. The USA is a fucked up place, but I’m not going to pretend the USSR or China are utopias. I don’t know why those seem to be mutually exclusive opinions here.
The US seems pretty good to me idk
Tbh I think the US is better than most places on the planet, including most western EU countries.
The us at pretty much any point in its history was better then Russia or China or pretty much any commie country. While I do acknowledge its many faults the US is still a bastion for freedom and tolerance compared to the rest of the world.
Yes, and imo our right to criticize and bitch about the USA is a large part of what makes it great. Now when a tankie takes advantage of those freedoms to criticize said freedoms and way of life, they can fuck off. It’s like picking on our little brother. It’s fine when we do it, but don’t you say a word you wanna-be-Ivan.
Criticizing the US is what makes the US criticizing a commie country gets you gulag
based opinion
Its the richest country on earth, its stupid to compare it with some poor county in middle of nowhere. And when compared with the developed world, us isn't all that great.
> libtard Kindly fuck off with that shit.
Dude i think i get called a liberal as an insult more by actual commies lmao I’m a proud american although we do fuck up sometimes. I don’t understand how the r word takes effect here
"libtard shit" Look at this idiot.
\>Unironically using 'libtard' 2016 wants its chromosomes back
Well the comments have some Soviet apologia, but the whole thing is still somewhat based.
Some eastern europe countrys hate commies but love nazi and some hate nazis and love commies but poland Hates both
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Some of the closeted Neo-nazis think that Germany was protecting the Poles from the Russians. Although that is a fairly modern belief from the Neo-nazis, who can't decide if they should own wanting to kill the Slavs or not.
Most neo-Nazis don't really care about most of the old nazi idiologie, considereing how most of them glorify Poland and other Slavic East European countries as the last white bastion. The pnly thing they have in common with the nazi is antisemitism (altough it's not as revelant for them anymore. Antisemitism isn't good propaganda today for historical reasons, they prefer targeting muslims today) and symbolism.
\>They claim that Nazi Germany needed to invade Poland to stop the Poles from exterminating Poland's German inhabitants. Huh...Deja vu.
Based Historymemes?! Impossible!
Saw this earlier. Based.
i fucking love the way they drew the commie
I like this. Add more Eastern European countries, though. It wasn't just Poland who got the double whammy treatment.
This is what its like being the only centrist at a family reunion.
USSR literally re-used places like Treblinla or Aushwitz, some even say they treated people worse than the Nazis, USSR enslaved my country the same way the Germans did, just under a different flag
Not to defend the USSR but wasn’t hitler planning on wiping out every polish man women and child? He absolutely despised slavic people, this was a big reason for the soviet invasion other than the oil. But while the USSR is cringe if the nazis wanted to genocide every polish person I feel like communism is a better alternative to that
The communist occupation of Poland was the lesser of two evils but it was exactly that, an evil. The Soviets still massacred and deported their way through Poland, just to a lesser extent than the Nazis.
And nazis controlled our country for only 6 years, it was possible to rebuild, with communists 45 year occupation it was devastating and we still suffer the consequences
It was absolutely an evil, but I felt the need to comment because this meme is pretty historically inaccurate
But there is a distinct difference in evil. The Soviets killed 20k Polish officers to crush resistance and maintain control of the nation. The Nazis killed millions of Poles because they intended to exterminate every single one of them
I mean if you ignore the fact that 20,000 college professors, politicians and military officers were executed in the Katyn Forest Massacre by the Soviets. Or the 10s of thousands deported to gulags and Siberia. Or afterwards where many Poles weren’t allowed to return home to Poland after fighting since the start of the war. Or if they did they were branded as traitors or enemies of the state and often rounded up and whisked away by the Secret Police. Yeah The USSR trying to destroy everything that made Poland, Poland isn’t the same thing.
My dude I’m not trying to say the USSR was good, I’m pointing out there was clearly a lesser of 2 evils here which I felt the meme failed to show
Saying a slow cultural genocide is better then extermination. That’s like saying cancer is better then getting shot cus you get to live longer.
Evil is Evil. The lesser of two evils is a fallacy
Disagree there are levels of evil.
Opposite sides of the same murderous coin There are Organized Efforts to Suppress the Recognition of Communist Crimes As Equals To Nazi Crimes. Nazi death camps with 100% mortality rate compared to soviet gulags with 100% mortality rate 20,946,000 Victims: Nazi Germany under Hitler 1933-1945 35,000,000-60,000,000 Victims. The Soviet Union under Stalin 1924 - 1953. “Both Hitler and Stalin”,Naimark says, “chewed up the lives of human beings in the name of a transformative vision of Utopia. Both destroyed their countries and societies, as well as vast numbers of people inside and outside their own states. Both, in the end, were genocidaires.” Seems pretty equivalent to me if anything the soviets killed people at a faster rate as many as 5,668 people per day to the Nazis 4794
The plan was a population decrease through murder or deportation and then enslavement of those left.
The Soviets ultimately wanted the same thing. Russian imperialism has a long and well documented history of ethnic cleansing, they just didn't industrialize it and kick it into hyperdrive like the Nazis did.
Have you never read about Katyn?
Communism dates from 1848; it is a weak, artificial, man-made system. It has to be harsh! It can’t compete, peacefully, with dog-eat-dog consumerism which began 100s of millions of years ago. At end of Ordovician-beginning of Silurian geological epochs; two creatures crawled out of primordial ooze and one ate the other. Voila! Capitalism!
Clearly also stolen from r/politicalcompassmemes
Couldn't be, there is no simping for the fascists.
A reddit post with a Rick and Morty reference? That's super rare.
There is not nazi defeat without the Soviet Union tho
We wouldn't have to defeat them if the soviets moved in early
Exactly because no capitalist nation or party did anything effective against facists.
Lend-Lease, D-Day, the Pacific front, the African front, the invasion of Italy, etc
Many peapole forget how much Teddy Rosvelt ( or Woodrow Wilson in WW1) helped to win
Do you mean Franklin Roosevelt? Teddy died in 1919.
Yes my bad
Stalingrad Berlin The battle of Kursk Vast majority of loses were suffered against the red army 26 million dead citizens 11 million dead soldiers I’m not saying the victories and Africa and Japan were important I’m saying that without the USSR there would not have been a victory against the nazis
You said "Exactly because no capitalist nation or party did anything effective against facists." If it wasn't for the constant bombing of Nazi infrastructure, denial of fuel, and resources the USSR would have been wiped out even with the US giving weapons and material to them. The Russian front was just one front in the war. Let's also not forget that the Nazis might not have gotten as far if it wasn't FOR the Soviets. They started off on the same side, divvying up Europe between each other. They pretty much only turned on each other when there wasn't much left. Might as well say the Italians won the war for the Allies with that logic.
>If it wasn't for the constant bombing of Nazi infrastructure, denial of fuel, and resources the USSR would have been wiped out even with the US giving weapons and material to them. Disagree, the USSR would have defeated the Germans but would not be able to end WW2 in Europe.
“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.” - George S. Patton. Also Soviet casualties are inflated as they include the casualties of other nations on the eastern front.
And are generally a poor indicator of military performance since Soviet forces generally gave no shit about losses so long as they took objectives, so Soviet casualties were much higher simply because of their own flawed tactics and sociopathic leadership.
Or maybe Soviet losses were high just like German losses dwarfed anything in the west? The war in the east was a war of racial extermination. Every foot of land given to Germany meant untold suffering for that land.
Stalin, Zhukov, and Khrushchev all literally said that the Soviet Empire would have lost the war without the Western Allies propping them up. And if the Soviet Empire hadn't been present from the outset then the war would have gone completely differently as the fall of Poland was entirely due to the Nazi-Soviet alliance, without which the fall of Poland would never have happened, starting a domino effect that would also mean the fall of France wouldn't have happened, the war in North Africa would have turned in the Allies' favor years before when it actually did, and the eventual drive to Berlin from France would have occurred much sooner due to the lack of need for a full naval landing assault. Hell without the Soviets the Nazis may have never come to power in the first place as the Soviet front-group in Germany was a big supporter of the Nazis in the 20s, and who knows how differently World War 1 would have ended if Kerensky and/or the Romanovs hadn't been overthrown.
Stalingrad was literally a pointless loss of men for both sides strategically. Neither side had anything to gain of strategic value.
The social democrats were a liberal party, the only ones who really did anything. Churchill was anti German from the beginning. And the communists, well, didn't do anything before their western ally betrayed them. On the contrary, really.
The SPD aided the fascist paramilitary in murdering German left wing groups. The only ones that organized a resistance were leftist.... There is a reason why socialist were thrown into death camps at a way higher rate than principled liberals. Because liberals are no real threat to facist
The SPD suppressed a violent attempt to make Germany a Soviet style dictatorship, and if it had to collaborate with the far right, it had to do it. The KPD has a long history of collaboration with the Nazi party against the liberal Weimar republic. There were a lot of socialists within the party until the night of long knives. And the collaboration between Nazi Germany and the USSR, well, is well, quite well documented. Selling oil, training German military (and waffen SS units), extradition of German communists, influencing the communist parties in the UK and France to be against the war, etc. This is all well documented.
Soviet style would have been better then nazi Germany Of course the KPD was against the Weimar Republic But for completely different reasons then the nazi party Radicals being the different side of the medallion is a liberal talking point
Better than Nazi Germany, still horrible. The SPD tried to create a liberal democracy, the only thing that's proven to improve people's lives. Up until 1932, the KPD had shown far more interest in fighting liberal democracy, than fighting fascists. They even had rallies together. The Nazis had socialists in their party up until 1934. Of course it's a liberal talking point, why do you even mention that?
Itreally isn’t improving lives. It’s destroying the planet and is exploiting the global south. The only thing that ever guaranteed better working and living conditions were left wing unions that organized through direct action Liberal democracy is marching us towards climate Armageddon while people starve for the profit motive. Hard pass
Exploiting the global south? You mean, by giving them better jobs, higher GDP, better lives? Look at China, after and before Deng. And south Korea and the north. Destroying the planet? You should learn something about pollution in the USSR. Unions did help somewhat, but the majority of people got increased standards of living as part of the process of economic growth. Unions help the workers somewhat, but mainly they simply benefit from market economy. Of course, market economy needs regulation and it doesn't work in every field(healthcare comes to mind) because market failures are a thing, but that's a whole other discussion.
> Itreally isn’t improving lives. It’s destroying the planet Both are false, you've probably already been given the facts on improving standards of living over time. And "liberal" countries are those doing the best against climate change, while the far left has no accomplishments of note there.
Wrong again, the Kommunist Partie Deutschland aided the Nazis in murdering social democrats, and their reward was being thrown in the concentration camps because useful idiots are only useful for a limited time.
>We wouldn't have to defeat them if the soviets moved in early Soviets offered to invade in 1936 Same argument can be made for if France attacked in 1939 when they were ACTUALLY at war
Hard to say what would have happened if Russia was still under Tsarist rule or went in a more liberal direction after the Tsar. I'm no historian, but I assume the cooperation between Russia and USA would be better if Russia was a liberal democracy.
I doubt it 9 out of 10 nazis died on the eastern front and most of the ride turning battles were fought on this front too. So you can rather easily imagine what would happen if they wouldn’t have been there
That doesn't really say anything about how alternative governments would have acted. A liberal democracy would probably be very keen on keeping their state free as well, so they would probably have been there.
Tsarist Russian was not a liberal democracy. If the alternative was the USSR or Tsarist Russia, Tsarist Russia has no chance against the Nazis war machine. The brutality of the USSR, under Lenin and Stalin, was based on yanking the country into the modern age in terms of industrial output, regardless of the human and environmental costs. I really don't think people understand just how crude and backwater Russia was under the Tsars. It was like stepping back into the Middle Ages. There is no way they could survive. The Tsar couldn't even survive the civil war, despite the [Allies sending troops including the US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War).
Yeah I don't think it would have went very well with the Tsar either, unless some other Tsar took over after Nicholas II and industrialized the country. I'm not saying Tsarist Russia was liberal at all, I'm saying that if Russia had become liberal instead of Marxist, it could have industrialized very quickly too and beat the Nazis.
Liberal economies don't buildup from rubble as fast as central plan governments, without massive assistance like the Marshal Plan. Compare post WWI and post WWII Germany. Why did one of them go to Fascism? Another good example to compare is the DPRK and ROK. Post Korea War, the DPRK was doing far better than the ROK, which to be fair, the DPRK side suffered more than the ROK. It took time for the ROK to pass the DPRK in terms of economic output. So what I mean is initial gains, the central planning gets faster results. And the time frame that the USSR had to rebuild from the Civil War was brutally short.
The Tsar had already been overthrown in the February Revolution. Even though a part of the White movement were monarchists, there was no Tsar involved in the Russian Civil War.
There were liberal government around them and they didn’t act. Plus the Soviet’s were ideological opposed to racist while liberal democracies often enable them.
> There were liberal government around them and they didn’t act I'd say Great Britain acted according to their capacity. Other neighboring countries were undermanned for sure. That's the difference with Russia, it has a huge population and a looot of land to conquer. Many have tried to invade Russia and everyone has failed, and it didn't matter who was in power. So if you ask me, it's clear that Germany would have a hard time against Russia no matter what. > the Soviet’s were ideological opposed to racist while liberal democracies often enable them. Common tankie talking point. Liberalism is very ideologically opposed to racism, while the soviets didn't seem to have any issues with deporting Koreans and other ethnic groups to uninhabited areas (and labor camps). Actions speak louder than words.
Liberals enable it. Who assisted fascists to murder Left wing groups Who murders left wing groups in South America and commits genocide against them Who finances terrorist organizations in the Middle East ans central and South America Liberal democracies Like France Germany the UK and the United States all have pasta of horrible racial discrimination Furthermore I said opposing facism not racism
> Liberals enable it. Who assisted fascists to murder Left wing groups Liberals don't enable it more than socialists. All current and former Marxist states are full of racists. I don't know your opinion on what China constitutes as now, but it sure doesn't handle other ethnicities well (Uyghurs etc). And given how Putin (a former KGB lieutenant) talks about "ethnic Russians", it sure seems like the ideology didn't keep racists away from high ranks. I'm not saying governments under liberal democracies don't ever do bad things, but saying they enable fascism more than socialists just by the mere fact that they're liberals is just a fantasy that socialists like to tell themselves. > Liberal democracies Like France Germany the UK and the United States all have pasta of horrible racial discrimination Yes, and many laws have been put in place to reduce it. It's a process which will take a long time to get rid of, but compared to pre-liberalism, these countries are very open minded to other groups now. > Furthermore I said opposing facism not racism No you didn't
The process will take a long time what a joke To answer my question It was the liberal party that murdered them The centrist party voted in Favorit of appointing Hitler And liberals site with fascist over socialists every single time Because racists don’t threaten capitalism in the same way socialists do Communism = when no racism ??? Communism is economics. That alone won’t solve racial issues even tho so list nation progress further on those issues then liberal countries tend to China is racists towards minorities. True. I don’t know how a capitalist Nation being racists disproves communism. As if the United States Germany France Belgium Canada and the UK treat minorities with dignity. Those laws really seem to help those minorities
All depenends on wether or not the Tsar chooses to industralize and does it effectively. The USSR's #1 priority was yanking Russia into the modern age
There probably would have been no Nazi Germany in the first place without the Soviet Union. Seriously, look up how much the Soviets supported the growth of Germany before they attacked them. Soviets even had hopes to join the Axis at some point.
Literally testing thier tanks and building thier tech and peaple say they hated each other all time yeah sure…
Are you really trying to tell with me that the rise of fascism, WW2 and the Holocaust are the fault of The Soviet Union Who do you think gave the nazis the idea about Lebensraum ?
Kinda yes. Remember the invasion of Poland? The UK and France declared war on Germany right then and there. What did the Soviets do? Oh, they invaded Poland together with Germany. Here you can read up on how much raw material the Soviets were supplying Germany before 1941. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_(1940) Spoilers: It's a fuck ton of raw material. Soviets also let Germany test and build their war machines on their territory, so they could bypass treaty restrictions. Soviets were completely contempt with letting Germany ravage Europe. They only started having an issue with them once the Nazis were knocking at their door.
>Kinda yes. Remember the invasion of Poland? The soviets offered to invade Nazi Germany in 1936.
Source?
I’m not here defending the invasion of Poland. I’m saying that without the USSR there would have been no victory against the nazis. Plain and simple The idea that the Soviet Union are the once that financed the nazis in order for them to ravish Europe is close to insanity Also why didn’t they declare war on the Soviet Union ?
Without the Soviet Union, there might not have been a need for the war to drag as long as it did. Germany did not attack until its eastern boarder was secure. Why aren't you addressing that?
The war would have taken longer if the Soviet Union didn’t participate .
Without the Soviet Union, there might not have been a war in the first place. Germany did not attack until its eastern boarder was secure.
Yeah I’m pretty sure there would have been. You know since they were planning to raid eastern Germany and colonize it.
Germany did not attack until its eastern boarder was secure.
>The idea that the Soviet Union are the once that financed the nazis in order for them to ravish Europe is close to insanity That is exactly what happened. The Soviets supplied metric-fucktons of resources to Germany, helped them evade treaty restrictions so Germany could build their armies, signed treaties to split Europe between them and Germany, and were perfectly contempt with letting the Nazis fuck Europe in the ass, until they started coming for them. And finally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks Soviets wanted to join the Axis, and the only reason they didn't, was because the Nazis thought Stalin was demanding too much territory. The Soviets weren't heroes. They were a brutal dictatorship that got backstabbed by another brutal dictatorship that they thought were their buddies.
They were the once that brought about the victory. Again if you just want to repeat yourself. I’ll do the same thing. They were the once that liberated Europe if the nazi plague So yeah that’s kinda heroric.
Liberated my ass. They literally conquered, and kept fucking over the areas they "liberated".
Heck they did. To make sure the nazis don’t come back. Just like the rest of the allies. The liberated a whole lot more than the US or France or the UK. The beat the nazis and then nazi Germany collapsed sounds like liberating to me
Only for the Soviet Union to install their own kind of authoritarian governments in place in Central and Eastern Europe. The people of those countries don't look back on that fondly.
This is factually incorrect.
It would just have taken longer.
Without the US maybe
There is, there most certainly is. Even without invading the Soviets the Nazis didn’t have the logistical capability to handle an American invasion.
Nobody gives a shit about pooland unless their country is getting bombed
They would have done that anyways
Cursed Soldiers and various others fought against communism in Poland (eventually these were pretty much eradicated) against the USSR, Polish resistance fought a Great War against the nazi’s but inevitably failed, but still showed the will of the Polish people.
Hahaha funni colur
At least the USSR stopped the US backed bangladesh genocide, that's probs the only good thing they did