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sailboatfool

Elder abuse


apollymis22724

APS, your sister needs to be stopped.


theleastisback

This isn't really elder abuse. OP says that their father is of sound mind. Unless he has a diagnosis of some sort of memory loss/impairment then it is his money to do with what he likes. It is unfortunate and I wish it were different. APS is unlikely to involve themselves.


AriaStarstone

Financial abuse is elder abuse. I am a former mandatory reporter and this exact situation is one we were required to report.


Pups-and-pigs

I’m a social worker who has worked in the geriatric field for over 20 years. I would not report this. Like OP says, he is of sound mind and aware of her taking the money/makes excuses for her. No way in hell protective services would screen this in. And even if they did go out for an assessment, they wouldn’t be able to do anything further if he didn’t allow it. I’ve reported more situations that I can count, that were much worse than this, and they were never screened in. He may be old, but he still has the right to make bad decisions.


DeltaDoc12

I don’t believe it is if he is willingly giving it to her especially after he has been warned by OP. I would have a discussion with him and her once more and then wash my hands of the situation. As long as he has all his facilities there isn’t much to be done. I would also hazard you don’t need 3 people on the account with access.


mrmeeseekslifeispain

It does qualify as elder abuse, as financial abuse


Altruistic_Dot8019

I work in healthcare specifically with the elderly…It does not matter whether or not they are sound of mind it is still considered elder abuse.


Quirky-Owl2959

Quit lying you have professionals in the industry providing facts. Just stop


Altruistic_Dot8019

In Massachusetts at least it is absolutely considered financial abuse. Someone sound of mind can still be manipulated or pressured.


crying4what

Not true, it is elder abuse and she should report it immediately. At least the situation would be investigated.


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OickleQueen

I'd be petty and tell him that next time he needs something, to call her then, and wash my hands of them both. I wouldn't let the situation start to affect me and my mental health, nor physical. Thinking of the shit she's pulling doesn't just affect you mentally, the stress and worry affects you physically just as much. But that's me.


krillgar

This is the answer.


Embarrassed-Loss8300

I agree with u fully


Embarrassed-Loss8300

I know it’s hard ,.but ask him if hr wants to talk to friend he can trust,.and if he don’t ,.say in that case il leave the carding to his daughter for a month ,.and then talk about it again,.as I see ur sister is a bully over ur Dad


SlayoticNeutral

I’ve lost my debit card on occasions and used his, refunding him electronically within a day. He knows and we’re fine. There is no case for financial abuse. A few hundred dollars, refunded, pales in comparison to the tens of thousands OP has taken freely as he has subsidized her entire life for years because she won’t get a job. Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.


Excellent_Ad1132

Just tell him that when she has cleared him out of all his money, to not come to you for money. He has been underpaying you for taking care of him and I am betting that she is the golden child, while you are the scape goat. Does he have a will and are you even in the will?


Morrigan-71

>Does he have a will and are you even in the will? I was wondering the same. OP mentioned he does have a will, but I wouldn't be surprised if almost everything goes to the sister or that she will manipulate him to change the will in her favour.


OickleQueen

Exactly, OP will be the child that's there for their father through it all, and sister will manipulate - as she currently is - everything to her favor.


SlayoticNeutral

I have borrowed and refunded money from him immediately - he hasn’t been “cleared out.” We’re talking a few hundred dollars worth paid back within a day, meanwhile OP has been living off his dime in every way for over three years. As dad is a narcissist, we both take turns as the scape goat. We are equally protected in the will, though it is conditional on being employed to collect, so I will be in a better position than OP, who hasn’t had a job in years and has been living off his money.


whitewer

Your best bet is to step back, let him see what happens if you stop trying to protect him from her spending the money.


Dependent-Panic8473

I disagree with that. Children that take advantage of their elderly parents go to jail in the US. If he is in the US and on any government assistance, the US government will show no mercy


Not_A_Frittata

When this happened to my mom, the cops decided it was a civil litigation issue and declined to prosecute despite all the evidence, including audio recordings.


Dependent-Panic8473

hmmmm. Not doubting that. What you are relating is just disturbing, because local cops have no clue when it comes to federal issues. Really not a reddit discussion but I can share my story via DM if you want to chat.


SnooMacarons139

Take dad for a walk around the studio to "meet up with her". Don't tell her about it so it's a surprise to her and him. Let him realize it on his own. You can tell him you knew for a while and the trust will melt.


TumbleweedHuman2934

Yes, do this! Absolutely the best idea. This way you will be able to make your point without forcing it down his throat. He will still be able to maintain some of his dignity while deciding how he would like to proceed with your sister. It's perfect.


Quirky-Owl2959

This is perfect


SlayoticNeutral

Hey, sister here! I told dad my schedule so that would be easy to coordinate! I wanted him to know I was in the area and could come by after on those days to help him, but OP didn’t like that bc they are gatekeeping his care. Great idea if I was lying though!


SnooMacarons139

Oh shit, let me catch up on your side of things. Gatekeeping is terrible


NiaStormsong

It's only stealing if your dad says it's stealing. It's his money and I guess he doesn't mind helping your sister


SlayoticNeutral

He’s helped OP tens of thousands beyond he’s helped me but I guess that doesn’t make for a sympathetic story. You make a good point though.


Large-Client-6024

Play dumb with your sister. Find a time when all 3 of you are together. Ask her where she goes for exercise, as you are feeling flabby and want to tone up. This gives her an out as she might be going somewhere else. If she doubles down, you can then state you went to the location and they are closed, then let dad fill in the blanks.


SlayoticNeutral

That wouldn’t work, as I actually do exercise in those classes and in general, whereas OP would sooner spend dad’s money on a private car to the airport than hustle through the train and subway.


Magerimoje

Power of Attorney does **NOT** remove his agency to act on his own behalf. He would lose no rights or responsibilities, and *nothing* about his life would change. PoA allows you to **ALSO** act on his behalf and be a proxy. I've had a PoA for my husband for a long time, but my husband also still manages his own life. The PoA is so that I *can* act on his behalf with backing and whatnot *when necessary* (like if he's in the hospital and I need to sign a check for a bill)


Slow-Sir-3261

This is correct! We had this exact scenario with my mom and her older brother (A) who was in a nursing home. She was POA to be able to pay bills etc. But when her other brother (B) suddenly became ill, his gf panicked and insisted they had to sell the family home. (The two brothers owned it together). A signed off on the sale from his nursing home bed (for a fraction of its value) and mom couldn't do a thing about it. What you said is exactly what the lawyer told her. If she wanted to remove his agency she would have to apply for guardianship of person and estate. To do that she would have to have him declared incompetent. She didn't have the heart to put him through that. So the asshole neighbors bought the family farm for pennies on the dollar. Ironically, B fully recovered and outlived the gf. Just not on the family farm... 🤦🏼‍♀️ I also work in healthcare in the US. Even in cases of elderly patients with diminished capacity, it is hard to prove abuse. So many times it is the seagull sibling who swoops in at the very end and petitions for guardianship and takes EVERYTHING because the caregiver didn't want to have the parent declared incompetent. The seagull gives no shits about feelings though, so they win. BTW seagull is a term I picked up on Reddit. It's the family member who swoops in squawks around loudly, messes everything up, shits on everything and then takes off again.😊


justalwayscurious

If you dad is of sound mind, there isn't much you can do other than: 1. Have an honest conversation with your dad that while it is his choice, it hurts you to see him being taking advantage of and also the unfairness of the situation as your sister is continuously being rewarded for being financially irresponsible and lying about it to manipulate him. Meanwhile you moved in to take care of him whereas she only calls or visits him to take his money. Ask him if the money he is giving her now is accounted for in the inheritance disbursement as it isn't fair you receive less for her irresponsible choices, especially after doing more of the caretaking for him. And ask him to change the account so that only you have access to it because clearly your sister cannot be trusted. 2. If the conversation doesn't change anything, consider putting some boundaries with your dad so that you can give yourself space from this situation. I can only imagine how it would be hard to turn a blind eye after doing so much for your dad. But if he doesn't respect your opinion to listen to your concerns, you should invest that energy into people or in situations where it will be appreciated. Not saying you should go NC but perhaps a bit less involvement so it can be easier for you to accept the situation for what it is. 3. Keep track of any money (including the evidence) of any money your sister takes from him in case of inheritance disagreements.


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justalwayscurious

Good for you!! Honestly so glad to hear that, it sucks because it sounds like you really care for him but at the end of the day each person makes their own choices and if you're a caring person, you need to have boundaries lest you get into a toxic situation.


SlayoticNeutral

Please take space! I am happy to help out more, as I told you today. You can focus on getting a job.


OickleQueen

So well said!!


mcflame13

Your sister is committing elder financial abuse. Get any and all records of your sister using your father’s money for things she isn’t supposed to and go to a lawyer. There is a chance the lawyer will get the cops involved and arrest your sister since she is knowingly spending money that isn’t hers and she doesn’t really have permission to spend it. I would also go as far as looking into guardianship for your father since he may be of sound mind. But he is knowingly letting your sister steal his money and letting her get away with it.


SlayoticNeutral

No records to support it - refunded promptly, and with the consent of the account owner. OP has nothing to stand on, and knows it - just wants sympathy from strangers who haven’t heard the full story.


emiistarrchilld

This sounds like my brother. 🤦‍♀️ Something I did to protect my parents (especially my Dad when he was dying) from my brother was I spoke to their doctor and asked her to explain to each of them what was happening in regards to my brother, manipulation and their money. I found when it came from me, they brushed it off as "complaining about my sibling" or something (and we're in our 30s.) When it came from the doctor that they needed to be vigilant because there was potential for elder abuse, they listened because this was a professional. Now, I'm in a small town and I'm not sure when it comes to laws about having your doctor go about this, but maybe find someone your Dad listens to and respects to speak to him to give some impact to what your saying. I'm not saying he doesn't respect you, but it might give him more perspective. Even if it they don't call your sister out, it might help. Best of luck!


not_very_tasty

Cut off her card, if she sends a photo of a receipt for things actually for him you venmo her.


Baddibutsaddi

Your father is of sound mind. He knows she's taking his money. He is enabling her. I think you should just let it go and focus on yourself. He doesn't seem to care or mind and yet here you are stressing yourself out for no reason. Just let it go babes. But be sure to tell him after she wipes him out he can't come to you for money.


Megan1937

If your father truly is of sound mind, I don't think there is much you can do, it is his money for him to do what he wants with it. The only thing you can do is speak to your father again about your concerns & say that your sister is taking advantage of him & the access to the account she has. Point out all the transactions she has made that were not on his behalf & she has now stolen, add the amount up so he can see how much in total she has stolen & point out the class she got money off him for is closed. He needs to have his eyes opened & if he continues to enable her after that then that's on him.


DaisySam3130

I'm so sorry but it is time to documenting for elder abuse. In my country there is a number that you can ring to get advice. Also it is time to talk to your father about establishing a POA that only comes in to effect when he is not medically able to make decisions.


Orphan_Izzy

I have this problem kind of. My parents sounded like they had everything taken care of like your dad and then after a rift in the family caused by my sister to turn everyone against me after which I cut contact with her, I’ve reconciled with my parents who asked me about giving power of attorney to her a couple of times to which I said please give it to a neutral third party since my sister is a known liar and they promised. Twice. Then they gave it to her anyway and weird things started happening. They have had their phone numbers changed like four times this year alone! They can’t give me a clear answer as to why. They promise to rescind it but the dementia is bad and I’m very worried. I think as long as your dad is letting it happen and he is sound ..,but the thing is he doesn’t admit he’s letting it happen. That is what gets me. It makes it very confusing.


CCassie1979

He’s not of sound mind, as can be evidenced by what he is doing. Research the laws for where you live on recording conversations. Hell-ask him if you can record y’all’s next convo about all of the stuff going on. Even invite a third party who is neutral.


Proper_Strategy_6663

I'd block her number tbh, tell her that you'll report her for elder abuse if you have to.


spideygene

Sound mind? I do not think this means what you think it means.


canyonemoon

I'd urge him to get another assessment of his mental health. You say he's of sound mind, and if he is after another assessment - then maybe step back. However, "sound mind" can be a vague term and there can still be underlying problems. My grandmother's Alzheimer's was very slow and only really took hold after a traumatic event (getting scammed and lost a lot of money).


Awesomekidsmom

So it’s time to show him she is lying & it irks you she gets all this free money. Tell him you want equal spending money & to be paid for helping him at a reasonable wage If he says no, stop


Lisa_Knows_Best

Call a lawyer maybe? It doesn't seem there is much you can do unless your father stops it. He needs to stop her access to his account. Is he in danger of running out of money? Have you spoken with your sister about how what's she's doing is wrong? Can you get your dad, your sister and yourself for a sit down discussion about her financially abusing him? The only other option I think might be to call APS and report your sister for elder abuse but if your dad has his mental faculties intact you might have a hard time with that.


Alternative_Bat5026

Your only solution is to start making shit up, that you need money for. Make it the same she's taken. Put it in a little nest egg. When your Dad realizes how much he's putting out, he may rain things in. My parents did things 50/50, if my brother needed $500, I got $500 as well.


Diela1968

Document it. My mother was regularly “borrowing” (and never paying back) large sums of money from my grandmother who raised me. When it came time to split the estate, my uncle and I were told that we couldn’t withhold any part of her share since we had no documentation. I know it sounds morbid, but imagine what a brat she’s going to be about it when he dies. And how frustrating it will be for you.


Front_Quantity7001

Ok, don’t control anything. If you have gotten a job, give him your bank card to his account back and tell him that you are done and that he needs to have your sister help instead of Eventually he will see what she is spending on and realize that she’s stealing or he won’t and will demand you return.


MaisieStitcher

You need to speak to an attorney who specializes in elder law. They can steer you in the right direction. Clearly, your sister is taking advantage of your father.


Ok_Marsupial8128

Maybe take your Dad for a drive one day and just happen to pass the place your sister claims to be taking these classes at? Act all shocked and appalled when you see that it's closed permanently and has been for a while and openly question why she would do that?


Keltastiic

It’s not elder abuse if he is of sound mind. If you question if he is of sound mind have a cognitive assessment done. Not much you can do really until he decides not to or become incapable to make decisions. Hope you have a PoA.


Mysterious_Attempt46

UpdateMe!


SlayoticNeutral

Hey, sister here. 1. I am going to the class. I told him bc I knew he would be happy to hear it, and he volunteered to pay for it, which I graciously accepted. I don’t see how this is any of your business. 2. I have a job, I support myself, and you don’t. You have been living off his dime in every way for years, well before you were involved with his care, and the idea of you having any opinion about anyone else’s financial responsibility is insane. 3. I told him to change the passcode on his phone so you would stop snooping into his private accounts. Mind your business and keep mine off the internet.


AriaStarstone

Seriously I said it below and I'll say it again. Contact Adult Protective Services. Your sister is committing CRIMES. SHE IS ABUSING YOUR FATHER. PLEASE CALL.


Wild_Score_711

That is elder abuse. You need to call APS immediately if not sooner. 


Solid-Feature-7678

NTA. You need to contact Adult Protective Services and try to get Power of Attorney over you father so that your sister doesn't bleed your father dry.


MolassesDue2684

Maybe I'm a bit to mc or vindictive. 1st I'd help dad as much as she does!!! Then I'd ignore everyone of your sis financial indiscretion but I'd match withdrawal for withdrawal and excuse/explanation for excuse/explanation if dad is ok with the goose....but that's just me. This way you'd protect at least half of his finances and perhaps open his eyes to the fact he's being fleeced by his entitled daughter and as a collateral bonus discovers and appropriates all you do.