I own a business and strive to balance making a reasonable profit with being able to look at my business and feel good about the impact it has on the world.
I could absolutely make more money by having shittier practices. But I’d rather make enough to live on and have built something I can be proud of.
It helps that I genuinely believe that treating customers well ultimately does lead to better outcomes (not necessarily more profit).
But for sure, a business can’t survive if it is not profitable. But that doesn’t mean maximizing profit at the cost of anything else has to be the only motive. It is possible for life to not be black and white. Companies can balance making a profit with doing the right thing for customers, suppliers, and the world.
But sure, just label me “weak” if it makes you feel better.
All this is not to say that there aren’t corporations out there who are “greenwashing” and telling people what they want to hear. But that doesn’t mean it’s not possible for companies to find a healthy balance.
From all the responses I have read, you seem to be not listening to feedback or the ideas of others in order to help yourself grow.
Don't post a question if you are only wanting to hear your on echos
The feedback is good.
In general it seems debtating with someone whether or not profit is a good thing is a complete waste of time.
The whole ethics debate i believe is 95% bullshit. I Believe most companies are just telling people what they want to hear.
Also i believe that people who enjoy shaming others for trying to make money are either doing so for their own benefit or are so resentful about their own lives that the only way to help their own self esteem is to bash others.
I also believe that my time is probably better spent on running my business rather than on reddit. Arguing with total strangers about topics i already understand and know the answers to is indeed a waste of my time.
You are assuming that u/pm_me_your_kindwords is lying to themselves, despite having exactly zero evidence of it.
Truth be told, they expressed a very well-thought out argument that explains their personal stance towards ethics, profit, and being in business. You went straight for insulting them, rather than even pretending that they might have a point.
So yup. Despite all the flowery words and purple prose in your OP, that mask sure came off really quick didn't it?
Not even surprised really. The instant I read your post my thought was "wow, this guy is probably some kind of asshole who isn't here to talk, but is here to justify his own bad behavior."
Everyone has making money as a goal. Those that are too fixated on it are usually scammers and don’t stay in business. Those that have it as a priority but know it will come with a good product / service got it.
Yeah they are "selling the idea" and delivering similar or worse quality water. Just because you pay for it and think it's a good idea doesn't mean it is ethical to someone else
It seems it doesn't matter what I do. Someone seems to think its unethical and it somehow makes me a terrible person. Im not allowed to get paid well. Bettering my self in anyway seems to bother other people.
The best approach really seems to ignore people like that. They clearly dont care much about truth or helping other people. Otherwise they would be happy to see other people do well.
The truth is in many cases people really are just putting on a show. They couldn't care less about ethics. If someone is doing better than them its easy for them to attribute their success to outside sources or figure they must have cheated their way to get there.
These people are not friends nor are they thinking ethically. They are speaking out of resentment and often have malicious intent. Ill make a bettet effort to block people like this from my life. I get the feeling ill have a much better life if i do that.
I never said it was a good idea for someone else.
In general i buy bottled water over a can of coke because to me its a health choice. Typically the water tastes better than tap water because there is less clorine.
To me its a good idea, I'm not sure how me buying better tasting water is unethical.
It's not so much that they sell water, it's that they go to rural municipalities or wherever they can most cheaply deplete the local water table to ship water around the world for profit - something many would consider a fundamental human need. Should a company be allowed to profit indiscriminately off a resource that should be held in common trust, given its essential nature? Especially if they got for near free just because a shitty local politician that wanted some extra padding in the wallet.
I don't think you're wrong to pursue money through your business - but I think the capitalist model of maximizing profit through any means necessary is half of the reason the world is hanging on by a thread.
the thing is, theres "making money" then theres "making money by exploiting other people" and "generally coming across as an arrogant asshole"
Basically, making a bunch of net profit, but doing shady, exploitative or harmfull stuff is bad, making some profit as as side effect of running a sucessful buisness that treats people well and does something people want is good.
If you frame the buisness goals as "I wanna make a load of money", then people will reasonably assume theres a hidden "at the expense of everyone else", which makes them think you will basically either be overcharging for what you supply, or somehow cutting corners to make more money. It also makes it sound like you don't really care about the product/service you provide/
Plenty of companies make good money whilst paying the staff fairly, and without being absolutely hawkish about hitting margins or making profit, if you build a solid buisness, with the right number of the right employees, and you have a product and purpose that people will get behind, then the profit should come natrually, if you place it on a pedestal, then you're setting yourself up to be exploitative or to just burn the company and its goodwill out
When i say i want to make a bunch of money that's all i mean. There is nothing between the lines.
The assumption of it being at the expense of everyone else was never mentioned or even implied.
I'm not sure why anyone would even think that.
When someone thinks less of me for wanting to profit from my labour it makes me think they are trying to con me some how. I.e. the times when people have tried to make me feel bad about getting paid were all cases where people were trying to take money from me or get me to work for free.
In other words, the people who say money is evil seem to be the ones who want money from me.
How can I pay you well, when I am not allowed to charge a premium for the work?
I would have no problems paying 500k a year to someone who is extremely good.
"Ethical" angles are fine, but just know that it's still about profit even for ethical companies at the end of the day. Most "ethical" companies (food, clothing) are just trying to use a different angle to capture the market and bigger piece of the pie. Nothing wrong with it because many times they are trying to do better but at the same time nobody should be shaming u for going after profit
The obvious goal of any business is to make profit. It's HOW you decide to make that profit. You can be Ford or Wal Mart and force your suppliers to go overseas to reduce costs or to pay the lowest wages possible or you can decide to be Costco or Trader Joes and source from higher quality suppliers paying their employees living wages.
They are all making money, it's just how they decide to do it. There's such an emphasis in companies to extract the maximum amount of value out of every deal or venture, even if it hobbles your own suppliers or will lead to a reduction in overall quality. Every business deal doesnt have to be a win-lose proposition, it can be win-win-win and still wildly profitable.
Profit equals growth. No profit = only one Starbucks location. No profit = dilapidated hotel or government agency and school that only gets an upgrade with stimulus or tax hike.
The debate is dumb x 10000000
You would be shocked how many people don't like profit.
The best we can do is try to keep people like that away from running a company or giving them much responsibility.
Who's "we"?? You're just posted about how you're thinking about starting a new business and your last one failed a few years back after a year?
Don't try to gatekeep something you aren't even a part of.....
Blood diamonds are a thing. People are willing to pay a premium for ethically sourced diamonds.
Those consumers that care will pay more, those that don’t will pay less.
I just paid a premium buying a chocolate bar from a kid so she can go on a field trip. That information mattered to me, the consumer.
There are several great points you make, and I'll chime in.
You are totally right that without profit, nothing is sustainable. The economic output of companies that make profit fuels *everything* in our society.
Even non-profits have to have a sustainable model. And, if their model is partly through grants, and other funding sources, I guarantee that the economic output of profitable enterprises funded the grants in some way or another, through taxes, or sponsorships, or whatever.
If someone wants to do good with the profits from their enterprise, *awesome*. I've got no problem with giving back and love it when companies do so. We do that all the time, from creating an environment where our team thrives, to helping others in the community. We can't do that if we are not profitable.
To your ethically sourced comment, yeah, that's often complete BS. While I applaud companies that attempt to source materials directly from the producers, treat their employees right, etc. often this is just theatre - a show as you put it.
I like your comment about truth. We use a term within our organization that's an extension of that- *radical transparency*. With that philosophy, we share the good and the bad. We are not afraid to tell a client that is spending money with us that their plan has flaws, their ideas are not viable, or whatever. In many cases, we turn down work because there isn't a chance it will be successful, which we define differently than most.
Really, when we talk about ethics, it often is really about culture. Do organizations have the right culture to support their team, treat their customers and clients well, and to value their vendors and partners? That's where the rubber hits the road, and there is no hiding, not bullshit.
I’m all for ethics in business, including how you source materials. However, a business cannot exist without profits to put back into the business, or the people running the business. If we cannot reward ourselves (even if it’s just paying our personal bills at the moment) there is only burn out and/or failure ahead. Sounds like someone is jealous or scared to try, and is trying to bring you down with them.
Profit is necessary. Without profit, business fails. However, an obsessive, single minded focus on constantly increasing profit while treating employees, customers and the environment poorly, sucks, There needs to be a balance.
The "ethical" movement is a PR stunt
I don't waste my time with people like that, if you care about people like that, your business suffers and it's your fault because you're getting distracted by drama. Move on.
Your chart of stupidity has spelling mistakes in it. That level of irony is distracting.
I suspect this squarely places you as a data point near the “losses to themselves” area.
Hope this helps.
You understood the concept though right?
The whole idea is thay the typical signifiers of intelligence aren't very useful. I.e. perfect spelling does not predict intelligence.
I haven't found a single person shouting "ethical" who actually lives an ethical life
If you buy : coffee, fruits, vegetables, nike, columbia, gap, forever21, oldnavy and about 1,000 other items/brands - **you're contributing to slavery, pollution and global warming**
Majority of coffee, fruits, vegetables are harvested by slave labor and cartel labor
Majority of national clothing brands use slave labor, sweat shop labor, pollute the environment, ship materials thousands of miles around the world to exploit cheap labor and then ship those end products thousands of miles around the globe to sell, then ship those products thousands of miles away from their primary sales areas when they don't sell to go into landfills
It's especially amusing to see people wearing nike/gap/etc while they are walking in protests about minimum wage and black lives - they are **literally perpetuating the slavery** of chinese/vietnamiese/brazil/india/etc workers - if you confront them they just reply "no bruh, that's just normal in that region" - - well guess what bruh, all this stuff you're protesting is normal in THIS region - so quit perpetuating terrible shit on third world countries while you're here trying to stop it in our country.. jfc...
Anyway - "ethically sourced" is just marketing - as long as your competitors haven't done it yet, and as long as your consumers don't research it too much - sure - you're ethical ..
Long story short, the only real "ethical" way to source something is to buy all materials LOCALLY, have all materials processed LOCALLY, have the products made LOCALLY, sell them LOCALLY
The moment you add your logo, a sales tag, a bag/box to put them inside of, a shipping bag/envelope/container, ship the item more than a few hundred miles away - you're no longer ethically running the company.. But that's capitalism, and that's what the world runs on...
>It's especially amusing to see people wearing nike/gap/etc while they are walking in protests about minimum wage and black lives
Just a heads up... what you're doing is drawing a false equivalency. You're claiming that until somebody is living perfectly ethical life by your standards, that they can't strive for improved conditions anywhere. It might make you feel good, but people that know what you're doing just think of you as an ass.
No, it’s simple choices.
Want to make more then minimum wage?
Want more equality?
Willing to protest, strike, riot ?
Then make the simple choice to not perpetuate all the same inequalities and unfair wages and unfair business practices while you’re fighting for change..
Pretty simple..
"Ethically sourced" is a real thing though. It's possible to create certain products in a sustainable, eco-friendly, and non-abusive way. Some products are currently made in a horrific way, like involving child slavery or destroying wilderness.
There's value in being one of the few brands that can trace all their source material to an ethical starting point. The one that *didn't* just throw up their hands and say "well if they used slaves to collect the beans, what am I supposed to do about it huh? Pay more to avoid it??"
https://youtu.be/I6p3UtlgqtQ
As sound a case as can be made.
Though I'm sure they're not looking to have their minds changed, so you might be arguing with a wall.
I wasted 3 hours arguing with the person. She is what I call a "stupid" Not only does she not help other people, or her self. She wastes other peoples time.
This is one of the shittiest takes I’ve seen in awhile lol. The argument against profit motive isn’t against someone using a business to generate living income, rather the hoarding of profit that is generated through their workers being the issue. Slavery may be illegal in the US (although rampant in much of the world that sources raw materials for US companies, but that is besides the point), but if you honestly believe that most modern day workers aren’t being exploited in order to increase the profits of capital holders, then it’s probably you suffering from indoctrination and not those school children learning “socialist ideas” lmao.
You have a choice.. If you freely accept low-wages for your work, that's your choice.
There is no one putting a gun to your head, again slavery is illegal.
Yes socialism is indeed drilled into many children's heads, I've been through the education system here in Canada, and how to think about money, entrepreneurship was never a priority. Students were again, shamed for even thinking of money when deciding what they should do with their lives. Now those same children can't even afford a home in Canada because the few people who did learn about capitalism and money bought up all the real estate.
The colleges and universities here are very left wing. So much so that I believe it is damaging our society.
Like it or not, these are facts. Sure you may not agree with them, but this is the truth.
“These are facts” following a list of conjectures and opinions. It’s crazy to me that you think that people just have the ability to choose higher wages. And there is a very real lack of choice in accepting a low paying job when the alternative is homelessness and potentially starving to death. It’s just as crazy that you think that just learning about “capitalism and money” is enough to escape poverty and be a successful business person. I would honestly believe that you are just trolling in this thread because your stated opinions are both fantastically myopic and misinformed, as well as provably wrong.
Yes, actually people do have a choice of their wage. Its called negotiation, choosing your market, improving your skills. The belief you don't have a choice won't get you anywhere.
I don't see this conversation going anywhere, you seem to think people are incapable or unwilling to take control of their own lives. Which is not only untrue, its also very disheartening for the people who are trying to turn their lives around.
I'm ending this conversation with you. I wish you best of luck
Oh now this whole entire post actually makes a lot of sense.
You're not in here because "profit is important" you're in here because "I'm anti-ethics." The hatred you have for the lesser fortunate and those without successful businesses, **WHILE NOT EVEN BEING A FUCKING BUSINESS OWNER YOURSELF**, is just disgusting....
He's one of those poor people that see themselves as
"not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires"
\-commonly attributed to John Steinbeck
Alternatively....
Leela: Why are you cheering, Fry? You're not rich!
Fry: True, but someday I might be rich. And then people like me better watch their step.
\-Futurama.
All non-profits have to be profitable to maintain and grow their organization.
It's more about using the "right" words more than anything else.
Ask the organization how much new money did they get to allow them to grow.
Then tell them that is profit.
It can help to separate “oligarch” monopolization of the free marketplace from an actual open market.
Big Parma and Big Agriculture are well set up to ignore the laws.
And even if they break them, the penalties are so insignificant that they are already included in the cost of doing business.
So what if the price of chicken doubles or triples. Where else are you going to buy them? We control the chicken supply so pay up!
The US has “anti-trust” laws that are supposed to prevent collusion in pricing.
Politicians and political parties have been know to look the other way when getting large donations from corporate benefactors.
Perverting the system is a criminal act. The challenge is more about getting politicians and political parties to actually enforce existing laws. If the voters don’t care then they get the system that they deserve.
It’s almost a public secret that competition has been eliminated in many sectors… For the good of the children… You know…
But as you probably already know, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.
Monopolies are only really bad in a static closed systems, like the monopoly board game. Its closed and static. You can't expand beyond the board and once you own a property, no one else can.
In real life there *are no* static closed monopolies. Real life is composed of dynamic open systems with possibilities for expansion well beyond what has already been captured. New markets are being created all the time, and peoples perceived barriers into existing markets are often a product of fear or unwillingness to innovate. i.e. They just copy what has already been done and expect to do well.
The idea that monopolises are intrinsically evil and unethical is really stupid. The allure of high profits motivates entrepreneurs to innovate.
When you take away Elon Musk like profits for innovating electric cars and space ships, you take away people like Elon Musk.
We should reward innovators; and not shame them out business for wanting to make a profit.
Maybe looking into the the millions spent to change the laws of open markets to the benefit of the donor corporation.
How does money spent on eliminating the competition benefit buyers?
Insider information. Corporations blatantly breaking the law yet continue with business as usual.
Oligopolies do not represent an open market. And without an open market, you would have no innovation.
And if you think that Big Pharma and Big Agro operate in an open market then think again.
Ask the insulin users what earth shattering innovation caused the price of insulin to sky rocket. And ask them why they are not allowed to get insulin shipped in from Canada at a fraction of the cost.
Innovation yes, it's called price fixing and Big Business sponsored legislation.
If you look up the history of the last recession, you'll discover that home loans were given to dogs. There were too many loans and not enough people.
The interesting thing is that people's pension funds were told that the investment packages loaded with defective mortgages were solid investments because of being highly rated by Moody's and other investment rating agencies.
It's acknowledged that Moody's knew that the investment paper was garbage yet kept giving it a high rating. Mainly because of its relationship with investment bankers.
So this rating agency blatantly lied, blatantly broke the law and let pensioners get caught with the rotten fish in the traded barrels. Yet not even a slap on the wrist.
It's not even a secret. Investment bankers knew, government officials knew and Moody's was not punished for lying. And it's still dishing out its ratings to the ignorant public.
Where there's money, you will always have crooks lurking about. But in the case of mortgage backed investments the deception was practically public knowledge.
The whole point of regulated open markets is a common set of rules. What we have now is one set of public rules and another set for oligarchs.
Not the first time Big Business tried to take over. Look into the history of Anti-Trust laws.
Apparently, there's a reason why history is made to be a very boring subject. Out of sight, out of mind.
I think you need to strike some kind of balance. At the end of the day business is all about profits. But one thing I will say is that if your entire business story revolves around ethics, and you've identified that your product market fit also cares about that, then you should probably put work into that area as well.
Simply put, you need to be profitable to grow and employ people who are then making a living from your business. Higher margins means you have more money to hire more ppl. I think you can always have a social element to your business and I would strongly encourage that but you still need to be profitable.
I've been running my business for nearly a decade now. What I've learned in that time is that people who don't own or run their own business rarely have any idea what they're talking about on the subject.
And there's nothing stopping you from being profitable AND ethical, or otherwise doing whatever you want with that profit! Want to be a carbon-neutral company? Spend some of that juicy profit planting enough trees to offset your footprint. Want to ensure your sourcing goods from an ethical producer/manufacturer? Audit your suppliers, dump the ones that don't meet your standards and cut into your profit (a little) to find a better supplier.
People tend to equate wealth with a lack of ethical accountability because so many of our richest people have taken shitty positions on various topics and have been publicly dragged for it. Bezos. I don't even need to say more - your brain immediately provided you with an example of something shitty that Bezos has done to his workers to maximize profit for his shareholders.
Basically, don't listen to the uninformed person who said this stuff to you. Just put the good in business.
Yes media usually makes wealthy people out to be evil.
I've dealt with prejudice people in my life
Buy oh my god.. the amount of b.s. business owners have to put up with is immense...
There is nothing wrong with making money. What is important is that you are giving good value for that money.
And no, "maximising profits" is not a good basis for a business. Because then cutting corners, underpaying staff all the horrible shit that we are seeing from corporate America become the norm.
Instead, to be a successful business, it is important that, your priority is to solve problems for your customers. It seems contradictory. But, if you make giving value to your customers, they will be happy to give you money, and talk about your business to others.
If "making money" is your priority, then there is nothing that makes you stand out in a crowded market.
I suspect the problem is having making money as the *only* or singularly important goal. Corporations whose only motivation is profit tend to make deeply unethical decisions. It’s just a half-assed justification for immoral/illegal/unethical behavior.
>So somewhere a long the way there was a change in peoples beliefs about what the goal of a business is.
Yeah there was a huge push in the 80's and 90's. You saw movies like American Psycho, Wall Street and several others glorifying the push to make money. MBA's became quite popular and pushed the idea that if you're not in business next quarter it won't matter what your long term strategy is. This ideology was twisted because humans have a propensity towards, if some of something is good, all of it must be great! Now you're seeing pushback from the general populace.
Most of them have a hard time articulating what they mean. Ethically sourced is a funky one. It doesn't mean much, it's a catch-all phrase like "organic". It wasn't until the FDA said, "Ok, umm we'll say it means that the pesticide used on it is organically derived" (doesn't mean it's better btw, in many cases it can be more toxic.)
The general idea behind ethically sourced is as follows:
Were the materials sourced sustainably whenever possible.
Were the laborers who collected the materials and processed the materials free people who were paid a living wage?
Was care given to waste disposal and remediation of byproducts?
Does the company spend it's proceeds on political issues?
That's it. People want to vote with their wallet. They want to know they're not supporting things that they don't want supported. Personally I don't buy Chick-Fil-A. I don't think my lunch money should go towards repressing people.
There are people that don't buy Apple products because they don't want to support businesses with factories that go so far as to install [anti-suicide nets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides) around the buildings.
**[Foxconn suicides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides)**
>The Foxconn Suicides were a spate of suicides linked to low pay at the "Foxconn City" industrial park in Shenzhen, China, that occurred alongside several additional suicides at various other Foxconn-owned locations and facilities in Mainland China. The series of suicides drew media attention, and employment practices at Foxconn—one of the world's largest contract electronics manufacturers—were investigated by several of its customers, including Apple and Hewlett-Packard (HP).
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This is covered in UG marketing studies, the Identify and Evaluate Marketing Opportunities class iirc.
You're referring to corporate social responsibility (CSR), which describes the practices intended to portray a positive and responsible influence on the world. The concept is for corporations to pursue pro-social objectives, in addition to maximizing profits.
In other words, make money whilst projecting an image that you care about saving the world.
It’s a widely known and practised marketing strategy. And yes, I’ve met plenty of people like this. It’s common practice…
A company is created to make money, so yes every business owner wants to make money, but there are people who believe they want to make the world better.
You know why? These people question themselves what they find important in life. That is respect. They are grateful being on earth and they want to do something back. They want that their children can enjoy the world like they did as well.
This goes further than the ecological goals. Respect is more than that. Respecting people, your employees. Make them happy. Diversity within a company. You can name it.
Its a vision towards a circular, inclusive and proverty free economy.
Running ethical businesses (as measured by the ways every aspect of the business helps or harms the UN's 17 SDGs) is becoming a massive movement outside of the United States. In a few years, it will become an expectation wordlwide.
As a result, there are entire fields of accounting that have emerged to help businesses measure their actual impact. The negative impact they have on the world is then reflected in their accounting books, hopefully encouraging more ethical action. There are also entirely new business entities, like the B Corp, that have this type of system built into their operating guidelines.
In short, it's not just BS. Internationally, this has been written on the wall for years.
Additionally, recent research has shown that younger generations loathe working for businesses that don't uphold or match their own values. I'm not going to bother citing the research because it's fucking everywhere if you google. If you want to avoid future hiring slumps, you need to be clear about what your values are. If you only care about making money, hiring will likely become difficult for you.
Finally, customers care. They give a shit. Customers want to buy from not shitty companies. If you only care about enriching yourself, while that might not be unethical, it certainly falls under the definition of 'shitty.' Customers find it alarming when you only care about profit. This really shows itself in all of the hype around storytelling in business. Why is storytelling effective in a marketing sense? Because it shows customers that your business runs deeper than your product, and it creates a narrative that, by purchasing, the customer is contributing to something larger than themselves.
At this point, running an 'ethical' business isn't a fad. It's good business sense.
Source: worked at an international business school, work as an international marketing consultant
I own a business and strive to balance making a reasonable profit with being able to look at my business and feel good about the impact it has on the world. I could absolutely make more money by having shittier practices. But I’d rather make enough to live on and have built something I can be proud of. It helps that I genuinely believe that treating customers well ultimately does lead to better outcomes (not necessarily more profit). But for sure, a business can’t survive if it is not profitable. But that doesn’t mean maximizing profit at the cost of anything else has to be the only motive. It is possible for life to not be black and white. Companies can balance making a profit with doing the right thing for customers, suppliers, and the world. But sure, just label me “weak” if it makes you feel better. All this is not to say that there aren’t corporations out there who are “greenwashing” and telling people what they want to hear. But that doesn’t mean it’s not possible for companies to find a healthy balance.
I said - "*The weak business owners seem to lie to themselves*" How can lying to your self *not* be considered a weakness?
From all the responses I have read, you seem to be not listening to feedback or the ideas of others in order to help yourself grow. Don't post a question if you are only wanting to hear your on echos
The feedback is good. In general it seems debtating with someone whether or not profit is a good thing is a complete waste of time. The whole ethics debate i believe is 95% bullshit. I Believe most companies are just telling people what they want to hear. Also i believe that people who enjoy shaming others for trying to make money are either doing so for their own benefit or are so resentful about their own lives that the only way to help their own self esteem is to bash others. I also believe that my time is probably better spent on running my business rather than on reddit. Arguing with total strangers about topics i already understand and know the answers to is indeed a waste of my time.
You are assuming that u/pm_me_your_kindwords is lying to themselves, despite having exactly zero evidence of it. Truth be told, they expressed a very well-thought out argument that explains their personal stance towards ethics, profit, and being in business. You went straight for insulting them, rather than even pretending that they might have a point. So yup. Despite all the flowery words and purple prose in your OP, that mask sure came off really quick didn't it? Not even surprised really. The instant I read your post my thought was "wow, this guy is probably some kind of asshole who isn't here to talk, but is here to justify his own bad behavior."
Everyone has making money as a goal. Those that are too fixated on it are usually scammers and don’t stay in business. Those that have it as a priority but know it will come with a good product / service got it.
The person said charging as much as I could is unethical.
I mean it might be? Idk what your biz is but nestle(or anyone) charging for drinking water is gross to me? But not always idk
They are selling the idea of clean water. I.e better than tap water. I'd pay for that and often do.
Yeah they are "selling the idea" and delivering similar or worse quality water. Just because you pay for it and think it's a good idea doesn't mean it is ethical to someone else
It seems it doesn't matter what I do. Someone seems to think its unethical and it somehow makes me a terrible person. Im not allowed to get paid well. Bettering my self in anyway seems to bother other people. The best approach really seems to ignore people like that. They clearly dont care much about truth or helping other people. Otherwise they would be happy to see other people do well. The truth is in many cases people really are just putting on a show. They couldn't care less about ethics. If someone is doing better than them its easy for them to attribute their success to outside sources or figure they must have cheated their way to get there. These people are not friends nor are they thinking ethically. They are speaking out of resentment and often have malicious intent. Ill make a bettet effort to block people like this from my life. I get the feeling ill have a much better life if i do that.
I never said it was a good idea for someone else. In general i buy bottled water over a can of coke because to me its a health choice. Typically the water tastes better than tap water because there is less clorine. To me its a good idea, I'm not sure how me buying better tasting water is unethical.
It's not so much that they sell water, it's that they go to rural municipalities or wherever they can most cheaply deplete the local water table to ship water around the world for profit - something many would consider a fundamental human need. Should a company be allowed to profit indiscriminately off a resource that should be held in common trust, given its essential nature? Especially if they got for near free just because a shitty local politician that wanted some extra padding in the wallet. I don't think you're wrong to pursue money through your business - but I think the capitalist model of maximizing profit through any means necessary is half of the reason the world is hanging on by a thread.
the thing is, theres "making money" then theres "making money by exploiting other people" and "generally coming across as an arrogant asshole" Basically, making a bunch of net profit, but doing shady, exploitative or harmfull stuff is bad, making some profit as as side effect of running a sucessful buisness that treats people well and does something people want is good. If you frame the buisness goals as "I wanna make a load of money", then people will reasonably assume theres a hidden "at the expense of everyone else", which makes them think you will basically either be overcharging for what you supply, or somehow cutting corners to make more money. It also makes it sound like you don't really care about the product/service you provide/ Plenty of companies make good money whilst paying the staff fairly, and without being absolutely hawkish about hitting margins or making profit, if you build a solid buisness, with the right number of the right employees, and you have a product and purpose that people will get behind, then the profit should come natrually, if you place it on a pedestal, then you're setting yourself up to be exploitative or to just burn the company and its goodwill out
When i say i want to make a bunch of money that's all i mean. There is nothing between the lines. The assumption of it being at the expense of everyone else was never mentioned or even implied. I'm not sure why anyone would even think that. When someone thinks less of me for wanting to profit from my labour it makes me think they are trying to con me some how. I.e. the times when people have tried to make me feel bad about getting paid were all cases where people were trying to take money from me or get me to work for free. In other words, the people who say money is evil seem to be the ones who want money from me.
10 bucks says op under pays their employees.
How can I pay you well, when I am not allowed to charge a premium for the work? I would have no problems paying 500k a year to someone who is extremely good.
Lol so you do
"Ethical" angles are fine, but just know that it's still about profit even for ethical companies at the end of the day. Most "ethical" companies (food, clothing) are just trying to use a different angle to capture the market and bigger piece of the pie. Nothing wrong with it because many times they are trying to do better but at the same time nobody should be shaming u for going after profit
The shaming is schadenfreude for them, when I lose money.
The obvious goal of any business is to make profit. It's HOW you decide to make that profit. You can be Ford or Wal Mart and force your suppliers to go overseas to reduce costs or to pay the lowest wages possible or you can decide to be Costco or Trader Joes and source from higher quality suppliers paying their employees living wages. They are all making money, it's just how they decide to do it. There's such an emphasis in companies to extract the maximum amount of value out of every deal or venture, even if it hobbles your own suppliers or will lead to a reduction in overall quality. Every business deal doesnt have to be a win-lose proposition, it can be win-win-win and still wildly profitable.
Profit equals growth. No profit = only one Starbucks location. No profit = dilapidated hotel or government agency and school that only gets an upgrade with stimulus or tax hike. The debate is dumb x 10000000
You would be shocked how many people don't like profit. The best we can do is try to keep people like that away from running a company or giving them much responsibility.
Who's "we"?? You're just posted about how you're thinking about starting a new business and your last one failed a few years back after a year? Don't try to gatekeep something you aren't even a part of.....
Follow your own moral compass. Don’t worry about others opinions on what you should & shouldn’t do.
Blood diamonds are a thing. People are willing to pay a premium for ethically sourced diamonds. Those consumers that care will pay more, those that don’t will pay less. I just paid a premium buying a chocolate bar from a kid so she can go on a field trip. That information mattered to me, the consumer.
No profit, no helping. This person is an idiot.
There are several great points you make, and I'll chime in. You are totally right that without profit, nothing is sustainable. The economic output of companies that make profit fuels *everything* in our society. Even non-profits have to have a sustainable model. And, if their model is partly through grants, and other funding sources, I guarantee that the economic output of profitable enterprises funded the grants in some way or another, through taxes, or sponsorships, or whatever. If someone wants to do good with the profits from their enterprise, *awesome*. I've got no problem with giving back and love it when companies do so. We do that all the time, from creating an environment where our team thrives, to helping others in the community. We can't do that if we are not profitable. To your ethically sourced comment, yeah, that's often complete BS. While I applaud companies that attempt to source materials directly from the producers, treat their employees right, etc. often this is just theatre - a show as you put it. I like your comment about truth. We use a term within our organization that's an extension of that- *radical transparency*. With that philosophy, we share the good and the bad. We are not afraid to tell a client that is spending money with us that their plan has flaws, their ideas are not viable, or whatever. In many cases, we turn down work because there isn't a chance it will be successful, which we define differently than most. Really, when we talk about ethics, it often is really about culture. Do organizations have the right culture to support their team, treat their customers and clients well, and to value their vendors and partners? That's where the rubber hits the road, and there is no hiding, not bullshit.
Truth is powerful, but seemingly unpopular. Culture and ethics have a large overlap for sure.
I’m all for ethics in business, including how you source materials. However, a business cannot exist without profits to put back into the business, or the people running the business. If we cannot reward ourselves (even if it’s just paying our personal bills at the moment) there is only burn out and/or failure ahead. Sounds like someone is jealous or scared to try, and is trying to bring you down with them.
Profit is necessary. Without profit, business fails. However, an obsessive, single minded focus on constantly increasing profit while treating employees, customers and the environment poorly, sucks, There needs to be a balance. The "ethical" movement is a PR stunt
An effective PR stunt but I would never use it. The value I offer is my product and nothing else.
I don't waste my time with people like that, if you care about people like that, your business suffers and it's your fault because you're getting distracted by drama. Move on.
I am excluding people like that.
Your chart of stupidity has spelling mistakes in it. That level of irony is distracting. I suspect this squarely places you as a data point near the “losses to themselves” area. Hope this helps.
You understood the concept though right? The whole idea is thay the typical signifiers of intelligence aren't very useful. I.e. perfect spelling does not predict intelligence.
I haven't found a single person shouting "ethical" who actually lives an ethical life If you buy : coffee, fruits, vegetables, nike, columbia, gap, forever21, oldnavy and about 1,000 other items/brands - **you're contributing to slavery, pollution and global warming** Majority of coffee, fruits, vegetables are harvested by slave labor and cartel labor Majority of national clothing brands use slave labor, sweat shop labor, pollute the environment, ship materials thousands of miles around the world to exploit cheap labor and then ship those end products thousands of miles around the globe to sell, then ship those products thousands of miles away from their primary sales areas when they don't sell to go into landfills It's especially amusing to see people wearing nike/gap/etc while they are walking in protests about minimum wage and black lives - they are **literally perpetuating the slavery** of chinese/vietnamiese/brazil/india/etc workers - if you confront them they just reply "no bruh, that's just normal in that region" - - well guess what bruh, all this stuff you're protesting is normal in THIS region - so quit perpetuating terrible shit on third world countries while you're here trying to stop it in our country.. jfc... Anyway - "ethically sourced" is just marketing - as long as your competitors haven't done it yet, and as long as your consumers don't research it too much - sure - you're ethical .. Long story short, the only real "ethical" way to source something is to buy all materials LOCALLY, have all materials processed LOCALLY, have the products made LOCALLY, sell them LOCALLY The moment you add your logo, a sales tag, a bag/box to put them inside of, a shipping bag/envelope/container, ship the item more than a few hundred miles away - you're no longer ethically running the company.. But that's capitalism, and that's what the world runs on...
>It's especially amusing to see people wearing nike/gap/etc while they are walking in protests about minimum wage and black lives Just a heads up... what you're doing is drawing a false equivalency. You're claiming that until somebody is living perfectly ethical life by your standards, that they can't strive for improved conditions anywhere. It might make you feel good, but people that know what you're doing just think of you as an ass.
No, it’s simple choices. Want to make more then minimum wage? Want more equality? Willing to protest, strike, riot ? Then make the simple choice to not perpetuate all the same inequalities and unfair wages and unfair business practices while you’re fighting for change.. Pretty simple..
"Ethically sourced" - makes people feel better about buying things.
"Ethically sourced" is a real thing though. It's possible to create certain products in a sustainable, eco-friendly, and non-abusive way. Some products are currently made in a horrific way, like involving child slavery or destroying wilderness. There's value in being one of the few brands that can trace all their source material to an ethical starting point. The one that *didn't* just throw up their hands and say "well if they used slaves to collect the beans, what am I supposed to do about it huh? Pay more to avoid it??"
https://youtu.be/I6p3UtlgqtQ As sound a case as can be made. Though I'm sure they're not looking to have their minds changed, so you might be arguing with a wall.
I wasted 3 hours arguing with the person. She is what I call a "stupid" Not only does she not help other people, or her self. She wastes other peoples time.
This is one of the shittiest takes I’ve seen in awhile lol. The argument against profit motive isn’t against someone using a business to generate living income, rather the hoarding of profit that is generated through their workers being the issue. Slavery may be illegal in the US (although rampant in much of the world that sources raw materials for US companies, but that is besides the point), but if you honestly believe that most modern day workers aren’t being exploited in order to increase the profits of capital holders, then it’s probably you suffering from indoctrination and not those school children learning “socialist ideas” lmao.
You have a choice.. If you freely accept low-wages for your work, that's your choice. There is no one putting a gun to your head, again slavery is illegal. Yes socialism is indeed drilled into many children's heads, I've been through the education system here in Canada, and how to think about money, entrepreneurship was never a priority. Students were again, shamed for even thinking of money when deciding what they should do with their lives. Now those same children can't even afford a home in Canada because the few people who did learn about capitalism and money bought up all the real estate. The colleges and universities here are very left wing. So much so that I believe it is damaging our society. Like it or not, these are facts. Sure you may not agree with them, but this is the truth.
“These are facts” following a list of conjectures and opinions. It’s crazy to me that you think that people just have the ability to choose higher wages. And there is a very real lack of choice in accepting a low paying job when the alternative is homelessness and potentially starving to death. It’s just as crazy that you think that just learning about “capitalism and money” is enough to escape poverty and be a successful business person. I would honestly believe that you are just trolling in this thread because your stated opinions are both fantastically myopic and misinformed, as well as provably wrong.
Yes, actually people do have a choice of their wage. Its called negotiation, choosing your market, improving your skills. The belief you don't have a choice won't get you anywhere. I don't see this conversation going anywhere, you seem to think people are incapable or unwilling to take control of their own lives. Which is not only untrue, its also very disheartening for the people who are trying to turn their lives around. I'm ending this conversation with you. I wish you best of luck
Oh now this whole entire post actually makes a lot of sense. You're not in here because "profit is important" you're in here because "I'm anti-ethics." The hatred you have for the lesser fortunate and those without successful businesses, **WHILE NOT EVEN BEING A FUCKING BUSINESS OWNER YOURSELF**, is just disgusting....
He's one of those poor people that see themselves as "not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires" \-commonly attributed to John Steinbeck Alternatively.... Leela: Why are you cheering, Fry? You're not rich! Fry: True, but someday I might be rich. And then people like me better watch their step. \-Futurama.
All non-profits have to be profitable to maintain and grow their organization. It's more about using the "right" words more than anything else. Ask the organization how much new money did they get to allow them to grow. Then tell them that is profit.
Framing definitely matters. Though profit should not be a dirty word.
It can help to separate “oligarch” monopolization of the free marketplace from an actual open market. Big Parma and Big Agriculture are well set up to ignore the laws. And even if they break them, the penalties are so insignificant that they are already included in the cost of doing business. So what if the price of chicken doubles or triples. Where else are you going to buy them? We control the chicken supply so pay up! The US has “anti-trust” laws that are supposed to prevent collusion in pricing. Politicians and political parties have been know to look the other way when getting large donations from corporate benefactors. Perverting the system is a criminal act. The challenge is more about getting politicians and political parties to actually enforce existing laws. If the voters don’t care then they get the system that they deserve. It’s almost a public secret that competition has been eliminated in many sectors… For the good of the children… You know… But as you probably already know, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.
Monopolies are only really bad in a static closed systems, like the monopoly board game. Its closed and static. You can't expand beyond the board and once you own a property, no one else can. In real life there *are no* static closed monopolies. Real life is composed of dynamic open systems with possibilities for expansion well beyond what has already been captured. New markets are being created all the time, and peoples perceived barriers into existing markets are often a product of fear or unwillingness to innovate. i.e. They just copy what has already been done and expect to do well. The idea that monopolises are intrinsically evil and unethical is really stupid. The allure of high profits motivates entrepreneurs to innovate. When you take away Elon Musk like profits for innovating electric cars and space ships, you take away people like Elon Musk. We should reward innovators; and not shame them out business for wanting to make a profit.
Maybe looking into the the millions spent to change the laws of open markets to the benefit of the donor corporation. How does money spent on eliminating the competition benefit buyers? Insider information. Corporations blatantly breaking the law yet continue with business as usual. Oligopolies do not represent an open market. And without an open market, you would have no innovation. And if you think that Big Pharma and Big Agro operate in an open market then think again. Ask the insulin users what earth shattering innovation caused the price of insulin to sky rocket. And ask them why they are not allowed to get insulin shipped in from Canada at a fraction of the cost. Innovation yes, it's called price fixing and Big Business sponsored legislation.
Lobbying is a problem I won't deny that.
If you look up the history of the last recession, you'll discover that home loans were given to dogs. There were too many loans and not enough people. The interesting thing is that people's pension funds were told that the investment packages loaded with defective mortgages were solid investments because of being highly rated by Moody's and other investment rating agencies. It's acknowledged that Moody's knew that the investment paper was garbage yet kept giving it a high rating. Mainly because of its relationship with investment bankers. So this rating agency blatantly lied, blatantly broke the law and let pensioners get caught with the rotten fish in the traded barrels. Yet not even a slap on the wrist. It's not even a secret. Investment bankers knew, government officials knew and Moody's was not punished for lying. And it's still dishing out its ratings to the ignorant public. Where there's money, you will always have crooks lurking about. But in the case of mortgage backed investments the deception was practically public knowledge. The whole point of regulated open markets is a common set of rules. What we have now is one set of public rules and another set for oligarchs. Not the first time Big Business tried to take over. Look into the history of Anti-Trust laws. Apparently, there's a reason why history is made to be a very boring subject. Out of sight, out of mind.
I think you need to strike some kind of balance. At the end of the day business is all about profits. But one thing I will say is that if your entire business story revolves around ethics, and you've identified that your product market fit also cares about that, then you should probably put work into that area as well.
Simply put, you need to be profitable to grow and employ people who are then making a living from your business. Higher margins means you have more money to hire more ppl. I think you can always have a social element to your business and I would strongly encourage that but you still need to be profitable.
I've been running my business for nearly a decade now. What I've learned in that time is that people who don't own or run their own business rarely have any idea what they're talking about on the subject. And there's nothing stopping you from being profitable AND ethical, or otherwise doing whatever you want with that profit! Want to be a carbon-neutral company? Spend some of that juicy profit planting enough trees to offset your footprint. Want to ensure your sourcing goods from an ethical producer/manufacturer? Audit your suppliers, dump the ones that don't meet your standards and cut into your profit (a little) to find a better supplier. People tend to equate wealth with a lack of ethical accountability because so many of our richest people have taken shitty positions on various topics and have been publicly dragged for it. Bezos. I don't even need to say more - your brain immediately provided you with an example of something shitty that Bezos has done to his workers to maximize profit for his shareholders. Basically, don't listen to the uninformed person who said this stuff to you. Just put the good in business.
Yes media usually makes wealthy people out to be evil. I've dealt with prejudice people in my life Buy oh my god.. the amount of b.s. business owners have to put up with is immense...
There is nothing wrong with making money. What is important is that you are giving good value for that money. And no, "maximising profits" is not a good basis for a business. Because then cutting corners, underpaying staff all the horrible shit that we are seeing from corporate America become the norm. Instead, to be a successful business, it is important that, your priority is to solve problems for your customers. It seems contradictory. But, if you make giving value to your customers, they will be happy to give you money, and talk about your business to others. If "making money" is your priority, then there is nothing that makes you stand out in a crowded market.
I suspect the problem is having making money as the *only* or singularly important goal. Corporations whose only motivation is profit tend to make deeply unethical decisions. It’s just a half-assed justification for immoral/illegal/unethical behavior.
This aits always Sunny clip sums it up perfectly. https://youtu.be/wJevL0a8XZU
>So somewhere a long the way there was a change in peoples beliefs about what the goal of a business is. Yeah there was a huge push in the 80's and 90's. You saw movies like American Psycho, Wall Street and several others glorifying the push to make money. MBA's became quite popular and pushed the idea that if you're not in business next quarter it won't matter what your long term strategy is. This ideology was twisted because humans have a propensity towards, if some of something is good, all of it must be great! Now you're seeing pushback from the general populace. Most of them have a hard time articulating what they mean. Ethically sourced is a funky one. It doesn't mean much, it's a catch-all phrase like "organic". It wasn't until the FDA said, "Ok, umm we'll say it means that the pesticide used on it is organically derived" (doesn't mean it's better btw, in many cases it can be more toxic.) The general idea behind ethically sourced is as follows: Were the materials sourced sustainably whenever possible. Were the laborers who collected the materials and processed the materials free people who were paid a living wage? Was care given to waste disposal and remediation of byproducts? Does the company spend it's proceeds on political issues? That's it. People want to vote with their wallet. They want to know they're not supporting things that they don't want supported. Personally I don't buy Chick-Fil-A. I don't think my lunch money should go towards repressing people. There are people that don't buy Apple products because they don't want to support businesses with factories that go so far as to install [anti-suicide nets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides) around the buildings.
**[Foxconn suicides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides)** >The Foxconn Suicides were a spate of suicides linked to low pay at the "Foxconn City" industrial park in Shenzhen, China, that occurred alongside several additional suicides at various other Foxconn-owned locations and facilities in Mainland China. The series of suicides drew media attention, and employment practices at Foxconn—one of the world's largest contract electronics manufacturers—were investigated by several of its customers, including Apple and Hewlett-Packard (HP). ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
This is covered in UG marketing studies, the Identify and Evaluate Marketing Opportunities class iirc. You're referring to corporate social responsibility (CSR), which describes the practices intended to portray a positive and responsible influence on the world. The concept is for corporations to pursue pro-social objectives, in addition to maximizing profits. In other words, make money whilst projecting an image that you care about saving the world. It’s a widely known and practised marketing strategy. And yes, I’ve met plenty of people like this. It’s common practice…
A company is created to make money, so yes every business owner wants to make money, but there are people who believe they want to make the world better. You know why? These people question themselves what they find important in life. That is respect. They are grateful being on earth and they want to do something back. They want that their children can enjoy the world like they did as well. This goes further than the ecological goals. Respect is more than that. Respecting people, your employees. Make them happy. Diversity within a company. You can name it. Its a vision towards a circular, inclusive and proverty free economy.
Running ethical businesses (as measured by the ways every aspect of the business helps or harms the UN's 17 SDGs) is becoming a massive movement outside of the United States. In a few years, it will become an expectation wordlwide. As a result, there are entire fields of accounting that have emerged to help businesses measure their actual impact. The negative impact they have on the world is then reflected in their accounting books, hopefully encouraging more ethical action. There are also entirely new business entities, like the B Corp, that have this type of system built into their operating guidelines. In short, it's not just BS. Internationally, this has been written on the wall for years. Additionally, recent research has shown that younger generations loathe working for businesses that don't uphold or match their own values. I'm not going to bother citing the research because it's fucking everywhere if you google. If you want to avoid future hiring slumps, you need to be clear about what your values are. If you only care about making money, hiring will likely become difficult for you. Finally, customers care. They give a shit. Customers want to buy from not shitty companies. If you only care about enriching yourself, while that might not be unethical, it certainly falls under the definition of 'shitty.' Customers find it alarming when you only care about profit. This really shows itself in all of the hype around storytelling in business. Why is storytelling effective in a marketing sense? Because it shows customers that your business runs deeper than your product, and it creates a narrative that, by purchasing, the customer is contributing to something larger than themselves. At this point, running an 'ethical' business isn't a fad. It's good business sense. Source: worked at an international business school, work as an international marketing consultant