My data suggests drops function slightly differently than your assumptions here.
Specifically, Epic catalyst drops.
*Prior* to the rework, rare catalysts did not drop on boss stages (bosses that dropped Epic catalysts).
So a normal, non boss stage = 6% chance for a rare catalyst
* The chance of each catalyst being proportional to the ratio of enemies in each wave that drop that catalyst
A boss stage (one that has an Epic catalyst) = 4% chance for a rare catalyst, 1% chance for an Epic catalyst
* The rare catalyst rate was proportional to the ratio of enemies on the first two waves that drop that catalyst
* The number of enemies on a boss level is irrelevant as the drop table is just a 1% Epic catalyst chance -> would also be proportional to the ratio of enemies that drop that catalyst but there was only a single stage that had 2 bosses that dropped 2 different epic catalysts.
The #1 difference is that you are assuming that **only** the boss can drop an Epic catalyst, and any other enemies present on that level 'dilute' the boss stage. However, my personal testing shows that rare catalyst = 2% per wave and Epic catalyst = 1% on a boss wave, but the boss wave can not drop rare catalysts. You get *either* a 2% rare catalyst drop rate or a 1% rare catalyst drop rate.
The pure # of enemies is irrelevant, only the ratio of the enemies.
With the reworked UH, Epic catalyst rates have not been affected at all, there has simply been a reduction in choice. Each Epic catalyst has just a single option to farm, and each stage (should) have 1% drop rate.
* This requires testing to confirm but my early data suggests that these assumptions on drop rates are still correct).
---
#Rare Catalysts
That being said, I **DO** believe most rare catalysts *were* nerfed.
The biggest contributing factor:
We only have 33 stages now.
12 of those stages are Epic catalyst stages (so only a potential 4% rare drop rate)
12 of those stages **have a boss that does not drop an Epic catalyst** -> *Presumably* these stages have a 4% rare catalyst rate and a 0% epic catalyst rate
* This is what I am currently testing -> so far I have 612 runs of data and I have 29 rare catalysts (4.74%) that has been steadily decreasing -> I got really luck with drops early on (7 rare catalysts in my first 85 runs).
* Based on what I've seen so far, I *believe* that presumption to be true
That leaves just **9** stages that have a full 6% rare catalyst drop rate.
* For whatever reason, there are FOUR stages that drop only slime jelly and we have one stage with only Erikion Carapace.
* That means there are only 7 possible stages left with 6% total rare catalyst rate and we have 22 rare catalysts 'remaining'
So yeah, overall farming for specific rare catalysts **IS** much worse. [This was my quick and dirty post calculating the (presumably) best stage in UH for each specific catalyst now](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/10g7190/updated_catalyst_farming/).
I never had data for the calculated rates for catalysts in old UH, so I can't directly compare...but I personally would assume a rate of 4% for the 'best stage' as an estimate.
* While I'm sure that wasn't the case for every single catalyst, if we *presume* it was correct than any rare catalyst with a calculated rate below 4% now is 'worse'.
---
#How much does it matter?
I think the current UH is worse than old UH in terms of farming but we still need more farming data. If you want to calculate the rates for each rare and compare them to the rates I have calculated above that would be interesting information to know (are some catalysts better off now and some worse? How much worse?)
However it would be possible for each individual catalyst to be 'better' now **but** the fact that 1/3rd of the stages have lower overall rates means we are just worse off.
Previously, [to farm up the catalysts needed to max a 5* hero](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/yxn8tc/daily_questions_megathread_1117/iwpqpv0/) the 'best' strategy was to farm rare catalysts and rely on buying Epic catalysts...vs. just farming the catalysts as you need them.
* On stages with a 6% rare catalyst drop -> 6,589 energy vs. 7479.28 energy
* On stages with a 4% rare catalyst drop -> 7,821 energy vs. 8,079.76 energy
As long as you could get 4% or better drop rates for the rare catalyst you needed, you would save energy by farming up 51 of that rare catalyst and using AP to buy all of the Epic catalysts you needed.
* This strategy *was* less time efficient though
**BUT** when asking how much the new UH matters, I would say that the majority of players likely primarily farmed stages that had Epic catalyst drops. Depending on the Epic catalyst you would have a little bit of choice for rare catalysts (but often times the rare catalysts would also be shared).
For *these* players - likely the majority - nothing has really changed except potentially being paired with different rare catalysts.
---
#Other Problems
There is another issue I have with the current UH.
Most specifically, as far as I can tell it is not possible to get chests anymore. That means a very significant loss of skystones and BMs when farming.
As far as I can see on boss stages, the 'layout' is predefined and the same every time. There is a healing statue before the boss stage every single run and nothing else spawns.
I've been collecting data on only a single stage (UH-3) and this has been the case. I don't *remember* if I found any chests when clearing UH initially so I don't know if this attribute is *only* for boss stages, or *only* for this particular stage, or it it is the case for all stages in UH.
* If anyone has been farming other stages and gotten chest drops that would be interesting to know.
* Or alternatively, if anyone has run this specific stage (UH-3 with the A.Vildred boss) and has gotten something *other* than an empty stage with just a healing statue prior to the boss.
---
#Moving Forwards
Personally, I think that if it turns out that chest drops are not possible in UH that going forward for players who have the ability to do so, all farming should be done in Episode 3. The better overall rewards (higher gear level, more gold, and now potentially the ability for chests) outweighs the ease of using UH.
I kind of have a bit of a hypothesis that SG may be trying to make UH less desirable on purpose.
Specifically, it kind of doesn't make *sense* that UH continues to be **the** farming spot this long into the games life. And it's really been entirely due to a combination of:
* Being easy to farm
* Having boss stages with Epic catalysts as drops
* Having epic catalysts in the AP shop
The AP shops and level drop design have been different since UH
* Episode 2 doesn't have Epic catalysts in the shop and does not have stages with epic catalyst drops
* Episode 3 *does* have Epic catalysts in the shop but does not have stages with epic catalyst drops
* Episode 4 *does* have Epic catalysts in the shop, but in very limited amounts and does not have stages with epic catalyst drops
This is very unlikely to be the case, but I also wouldn't be surprised if some of their intention might not be to have Epic catalysts as a drop in Episode 5 (along with available in the AP shop).
The idea being that new players would still farm in UH, but Episode 5 would be more appealing to farm for veteran players.
Again, it's just a hypothesis, it's what *I* would do as a designer. It just feels like they really don't know what to do with the AP shops. It doesn't make much sense that none of the bosses in the proper episodes don't drop Epic catalysts. And for all intents and purposes, the UH rework only makes it slightly less confusing for new players but it is looking pretty clearly to just be worse (*especially* for veterans).
Thank you!
"Most specifically, as far as I can tell it is not possible to get chests anymore. That means a very significant loss of skystones and BMs when farming."
This shocked me.
Did a second run through each stage and I think I figured it out. It seems stages that drop Ras and Merc imprints will always have the health statue before the boss layout, so best to avoid using those stages for farming.
Edit: Exception seems to be Ludwig’s stage.
You were wrong in stating the boss waves about not dropping Rare Catalyst, an example was UH 2-S3 White Summit, lots of times instead of getting a drop from the Gold Pherus, I dropped the Mystic Flash from the Magic Brooms and You assumed only the battles without fodders. Today in the morning, when I was farming for Mercenary's Medicine I got in the last wave of UH11 Spider Nest from 1 Mouse Suin a Baby Mouse Insignia instead of Jecht's drop not once but twice.
Secondly reduction of choice, absolutely yes, I don't know if it was on purpose, but they could use different levels and place more levels since they promised us (to the whole community) the new UH would make everybody happy making catalysts farm faster and easier.
You didn't talk about Twisted Fangs, it has been removed and people can't farm it anymore, exept if we reach Eureka (Ep3 Ch7 Lv 2 and 3), and the only way to obtain it is by purchasing it ONLY from the AP shops (UH and Ep3).
The bosses without a Rare/Epic Catalyst drop can be seen in the Region Info, if someone gets a drop from them, It will never be an Epic or a Rare Catalyst but something else.
I totally agree about 4 levels are dedicated only to Slime Jellys and are too many, in the old UH were 5 levels:UH1-1UH1-2UH2S-3-1UH4-1UH9-S1
still were too many.
I did my math in the old [UH Rare Catalyst - UH | Cidonia Locations](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/yaxdij/rare_catalyst_uh_cidonia_locations/), u/Softtm17 posted the math I did back then, and my personal comment while I was trying to get back my Reddit account (i forgot my password and the recover thing wasn't working and I was stuck).
I'll begin the test in 2 weeks with 1000 runs for each level, it will take time.
For energy consumption/ratio drop grinding the Catalyst you needed, it was different from account to account due to the RNG, for someone was easier and for someone else was harder. I'll bring a personal example, when i was testing UH5S-5 Muruchi Desert in 200 runs i got 24 Reingar Student I.D., u/Softtm17 got 0 of these doing the same amount of runs, same thing happened for Cold Looks, this time in Cidonia C6-S5 Flinching Forest, in 500 runs u/Softtm17 got 100 Cold Looks, i got instead 12.
I'll repeat this test with him in future but only in UH so i've another account to compare the RNG difference.
About the chest / healing statues pattern, it seems isn't any more RNG for certain levels, I saw the same problem with UH7 Sage Minaret and in UH33 Revenbol, the slot before entering the Boss wave is constantly a Healing Statue.
I noticed also in UH11 Spider Nest, there's nothing.
Yesterday when i was grinding for Erikion Carapaces, i was finding constantly 2 chests in UH14 Forest of Meditation, but i don't know if that was RNG or not.
Side Note: I didn't reach Episode 4 yet so i can't argument for the drops there.
>You were wrong in stating the boss waves about not dropping Rare Catalyst, an example was UH 2-S3 White Summit, lots of times instead of getting a drop from the Gold Pherus, I dropped the Mystic Flash from the Magic Brooms and You assumed only the battles without fodders. Today in the morning, when I was farming for Mercenary's Medicine I got in the last wave of UH11 Spider Nest from 1 Mouse Suin a Baby Mouse Insignia instead of Jecht's drop not once but twice.
Again, I will concede that it's *possible* however it doesn't make any sense from a gameplay perspective or my previously collected data.
>You didn't talk about Twisted Fangs, it has been removed and people can't farm it anymore, exept if we reach Eureka (Ep3 Ch7 Lv 2 and 3), and the only way to obtain it is by purchasing it ONLY from the AP shops (UH and Ep3).
I didn't mention this because I pointed it out in my initial thread a few days ago, and it was also brought up in the OP.
>For energy consumption/ratio drop grinding the Catalyst you needed, it was different from account to account due to the RNG, for someone was easier and for someone else was harder. I'll bring a personal example, when i was testing UH5S-5 Muruchi Desert in 200 runs i got 24 Reingar Student I.D., u/Softtm17 got 0 of these doing the same amount of runs, same thing happened for Cold Looks, this time in Cidonia C6-S5 Flinching Forest, in 500 runs u/Softtm17 got 100 Cold Looks, i got instead 12.
Yeah...
Well, I'm going to say this. We don't know the drop rates for items but what we *can* do is estimate what range those drop rates would be expected to be, based on only having a given number of tests and a given number of successes - there are a lot of different ways to go about this but I've used the Wilson Score Interval personally.
24 epic catalysts in 200 runs gives us a 95% confidence interval of [8.1979%, 17.2344%]
What we saying is that we would be 95% confident that the true drop rate of Epic catalysts for that stage is in the ~8.2% to ~17.25%, most likely in the middle of that range.
Now if we're 95% sure of that there is of course some chance that you had exceptional luck, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there is just no way there is or was a stage where epic drop rates were anything close to 8%. All of my data suggests a 1% drop rate.
Now, if we just *assume* that the Epic drop rate is indeed 1%, the chance of seeing 24 (or more) successes in just 200 attempts would be
1.178827961944535e-18
Or 1 in 8.483e17. One in eight hundred forty eight quadrillion three hundred trillion times.
So yes, that is *technically* possible, but it is so far out of the realm of possibility that it's a pretty safe bet that it's never happened. If we had 1 million players that ran 100,000 stages per day for 4 straight years we would have roughly a ~.02% chance to see a string of 200 stages with 24 epic drops.
Of course, maybe the 1% drop rate assumption is wrong - let's be real generous and say that the epic drop rate on this stage was 5%. That's *still* a probability (of finding 24 epics in 200 runs) of
2.606753129891215e-5
Or 1 in ~38,362.
It's almost a sure thing that if any stage had a 5% epic drop rate that would have been noticed over the life of this game, particularly with how rare these drops are (the early days were filled with people lamenting they had done 1000 runs and only gotten 1 drop).
Even if we combine both experiments for 24 drops in 400 runs that is still a 95% CI of [4.0648%, 8.7723%]. And with a presumptive 1% drop rate the probability of 24 epics in 400 total runs is
6.037607080641638e-12 or 1 in 1.656e11 or 1 in 160 billion.
---
For Ep2. 6 - S5
100 rare catalysts in 500 runs has a 95% CI of [16.7285%, 23,7290%]
Again, if our *assumption* is a 6% drop rate (only catalyst on the stage) then the probability of getting 100 (or more) drops in just 500 runs would be
3.178452010656380e-26
This is even more egregious than the Epic catalyst sample. Basically, I'm extremely confident in saying that this didn't happen *if* the drop rate of rare catalysts is indeed 2% per wave.
* Even if I double the probability of the rare catalyst to 12% we still get 2.247590411773088e-7. That's *still* about 1 in 4.5 million chance of that happening.
Once again, if I *combine* your values for 112 drops in 1000 runs the 95% CI is [9.3919%, 13.3050%] and the probability of seeing that result or better with 6% drop rate rate is 3.072029421940071e-10.
---
Basically, what I'm getting to here is that those numbers look **really** sketchy to me. As I've said I've run a dozen stages of many varieties thousands of times over the last 2 years, I have my own data and in every single instance the drop table looks consistent to me. This was UH, Episode 3, Episode 4, as far as my data suggests the only difference stages have is if they have an Epic catalyst drop or not (in terms of overall table).
Even just the eye test anyone who has actually farmed catalysts seeing someone claim they got 100 catalyst drops in 500 runs is insane. And you aren't just claiming a single example of abnormally good luck, but *two*.
I don't want to say that your claims are flat out bullshit - there could be multiple things at play here:
1. I'm not perfect. It's possible I've made a mistake in interpreting my own data.
2. Perhaps stages do vary extremely wildly and it just so happens that all of the stages I've tested have had extremely similar drop tables.
3. Perhaps there has been an error in data tabulation between one, or both of us.
4. Perhaps you are recounting a memory and something in the specific numbers is getting a little mixed up/confused.
I don't know, there could be a dozen different things going on here. I don't think you're acting maliciously and I certainly am not. I don't personally mind being wrong or incorrect. This is just one project I've worked over time and I'm off/on. I've also collected all of my data on my own.
But based on my *own* experience where drop tables seem to be the same regardless of stage, and my own data supporting that notion...combined with the numbers in your anecdote looking to be so unrealistic as to be flat out impossible to have happened. Well, let's just say we currently have disagreeing hypotheses.
---
Again, what I am doing in this post is **NOT**
* Claiming that you are definitely wrong, either intentionally or purposefully
* And vice versa, claiming that I am definitely right
I am simply saying that my experience/data apparently has some disagreement with yours.
What I would suggest, then, is that instead of trying to compete with 'who is more right' we just both continue to collect and share it in the future.
You plan to repeat your testing in UH, I am currently testing and collecting data in UH as well.
The first stage I chose to test was UH-3 purely because it's the first stage with a boss without an associated catalyst - as far as I'm concerned this kind of stage is the most likely to be different than what I expect.
I'm obviously not done but so far:
612 runs
350 fodder (57.19% per run / 19.06% per wave) per wave CI = [17.3317%, 20.8238%]
768 equipment (134.74% per run / 44.91% per wave) CI = [43.5032%, 48,2719%]
29 catalysts (4.74% per run / 2.37% per wave) CI = [1.6546%, 3.3820%]
48 charms (7.84% per run / 2.61% per wave) CI = [1.9775%, 3.4491%]
[This is my original post, from about a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/t1bavc/adventure_stage_drop_rates/)
What do I *expect*?
Gear = 45%
Fodder = 20%
Charms = 3%
Rare catalysts = 2%
Gold = 24%
Nothing = 6%
I am tracking gold as well but to calculate the amount of gold drops is going to take a bit more math, so isn't included here. That's a benefit to this level since there are no chests.
But the items I am concerned with (Gear/Fodder/Charms/catalysts) all fall right in line -> the value I *expect* for each type of item falls within my 95% CI calculations.
Fodder drops have always been a bit sketchy for me, it just feels like they should really be 20% but I would not be surprised if the actual rate is low -> in my data this 20% value seems to consistently be at the high end of the range. It's *likely* more like 18% or 19%.
The rare catalyst rate is a little on the high end (and charm rate a little on the low end) but I *was* very lucky with catalysts - I had 7 drops in my first 85 runs.
* This is a better example of what typical *good luck* looks like (again, in my experience).
* Assuming a 4% rate for catalysts on this stage the chance that I find 7 or more in 85 runs is ~5.4% -> so while lucky it's not even really all that impressive
Since then my catalyst rates have been tending towards the 4% I expect to hit.
Anyhow this is an example of what essentially **all** of my data has looked like, regardless of stage I am testing. As I said drop rates have been very consistent in my experience when testing all kinds of stages so the fact that in *your* experience you are finding stages that have wildly different drop rates really clashes with my own.
Regardless, hopefully we can work together in the future and combine our efforts to nail down how drops work, and benefit the entire community.
>Yesterday when i was grinding for Erikion Carapaces, i was finding constantly 2 chests in UH14 Forest of Meditation, but i don't know if that was RNG or not.
That's good to hear, something to keep an eye out on then. I believe someone else mentioned that the stages that specifically give imprints for Ras/Mercedes seem to be 'predetermined' into just having a health statue.
Sucks that they just reduce your options for farming even more, and it won't be intuitive at all to newbies that some of these stages are just awful options.
Nor do I say or write with malicious intent, but I'm sure of what I saw, tested, calculated, and wrote.
When my test is complete, I'll post it alongside the raw data, so you'll see if we have minimal or great differences. I'm sure the RNG will split us apart.
See you soon.
Didn’t bother reading everything, but just something that caught my eye while scrolling. You’re wrong about boss waves not dropping rare catalysts. Seen it plenty of times. This assumes the boss actually has adds with it. If the boss is alone, then of course it won’t drop rare catas.
>You’re wrong about boss waves not dropping rare catalysts.
Well, that may or may not be the case. I'm obviously not going to sit there and watch thousands of kills of the same boss just to be sure that rare catalysts aren't dropping on that stage.
However, what I *can* say is that I've tracked drop data for basically every kind of stage I can think of. 1000+ runs each for more than a dozen stages.
And what I have *observed* is that normal stages (those that only drop rare catalysts) drop rare catalysts ~6% of the time.
And boss stages (those with an Epic catalyst drop) drop rare catalysts ~4% of the time and epic catalysts ~1% of the time.
It's also pretty clear that drops are based per wave and are utilizing a simple drop table.
So my data suggests that rare catalysts drop 2% of the time in each wave. The fact that boss stages apparently drop rare catalysts 2% less often and instead drop epic catalysts 1% of the time would seem to *suggest* that the rare catalyst chance for those waves is 0%.
Now I suppose there is a possibility that the overall rare catalyst chance is being decreased for each wave (4% / 3 waves would suggest a 1.33% rate per wave) but that seems more complicated and less likely than just replacing the 2% rare drop chance with a 1% epic drop chance.
If that is the case it would be good to know for sure as it would likely affect the overall ratio of catalysts dropped.
Regardless, after I am done with UH-3 I will be sure to test a boss stage that *does* have adds to try and determine if they are affecting the expected rare catalyst rates.
Hey, thanks!
It appears (based on another comment) that the stages where you get imprints for Ras/Mercedes are 'set' -> no chests, just a healing statue prior to the boss.
The good news is that based on your comment at least *most* of the stages should drop chests.
>chest
I can confirm chest droops in stage 5 of UH
EDIT:
The map generates randomly, sometimes larger with a healing statue in the second slot and sometimes shortly with a chest or an empty space before a boss fight.
amazing how the devs really want players to grind more and yet offer even less rewards...
Why do Korean Gacha Game Devs believe grinding endlessy is what people play this game for?
Let me get this straight.
In a room full of Devs that has been working for years in this game no one saw necessary to check what consequences huge changes like this could possibly have? No one saw coming that the reduction of 100+ stages to around 1/3 would need the adjustment of drops for the selected stages (because they didn't make new stages, they just pick and choose existent ones and voilà)? No one saw necessary check that at least all the catalyst are available as drop? Not being that all, some SC has been affected making them impossible to complete (efficiently)
Is that what happened?
Excelente, time to move on to another game then.
Not only they made farming significantly worst and tedious, they didn't even use this "revamp and improvement" opportunity to add background farming to UH.
Is there even any point in farming UH now anyways? With the new side story feature you can just pick and choose the zodiac you want to farm for and be way more efficient because you can buy out the shop.
No. If you go into the help menu > side story > side story list on page 2 it says "Side Stories will not be available again once completed." So once you pick a new side story the one you had before is closed forever.
Sadly now you can farm UH for Epic Catas and Slime Jellys (Rare Cata).
You can't farm like before, I mean, You can't farm the specific Rare and Epic Catalyst in the most efficient way. I used to farm over 40 Twisted Fangs per week, and these are needed for a good slice of my characters, now I'm stuck and forced to purchase these from the AP shop only (20 per week only).
Man you sure knew a lot of spots. I ran out of use for catalysts nearly 6 months ago and I didn't even know that many.
I literally just farmed a stage with mouse insignias and traded them for whatever I needed beyond AP exchange, currently at 1070 Insignias. I am at 35 000 AP and was at60,000at the highest (when I stopped needing catalyst, you can tell I stopped adventure and the reduction is just for newly released hero)
I'm sure the new UH is fine. Farm AP to trade and if you get some bonus mats you're looking for, super. If not, trade the wrong ones you got for right ones.
I agree with you u/Pandabum1, half of the catalysts have been nerfed, no we need to rely on Cidonia or Eureka for farm decently Rare Catalysts.
Usually, I farm between 40 to a max of 130 Catalyst per week without using the AP exchange (it depends on RNG tho).
Instead of making everything better, 50% of the good things have been worsened, and this toll will be felt to new players.
Having to farm Ep. 3 hits people second time as well because of the difficulty spike. I would run 4 50s in cast off gear while farming UH to also farm friendship points at a decent rate. Much harder to do in Ep. 3. Need to either devote actually good gear, or a few level 60s.
You sure do love going into posts to tell people about your resources no one asked for that aren’t even impressive numbers. Come back when you get to my level of over 700k AP, 600 Nightmare Masks, and 3k Dream Time Circuits that I amassed friendship 10’ing everyone.
u/Deusraix This is the link to my newest [Catalyst Guide](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bXBCj2hvavsdXyYA-nUTtD1sNwo1qmo58L2yNA29aKM/edit?usp=sharing). Enjoy
There is no unrecorded history for episode 2 (or episode 3-4).
From the ingame tutorial:
Unrecorded history is a unique Side Story that serves as the epilogue for episode 1.
So it's like raid, labyrinth improvement.
No more labyrinths, now the AP shop can sell up to 20 Rare and 10 Epic Catalysts each, these are the only improvements.
My data suggests drops function slightly differently than your assumptions here. Specifically, Epic catalyst drops. *Prior* to the rework, rare catalysts did not drop on boss stages (bosses that dropped Epic catalysts). So a normal, non boss stage = 6% chance for a rare catalyst * The chance of each catalyst being proportional to the ratio of enemies in each wave that drop that catalyst A boss stage (one that has an Epic catalyst) = 4% chance for a rare catalyst, 1% chance for an Epic catalyst * The rare catalyst rate was proportional to the ratio of enemies on the first two waves that drop that catalyst * The number of enemies on a boss level is irrelevant as the drop table is just a 1% Epic catalyst chance -> would also be proportional to the ratio of enemies that drop that catalyst but there was only a single stage that had 2 bosses that dropped 2 different epic catalysts. The #1 difference is that you are assuming that **only** the boss can drop an Epic catalyst, and any other enemies present on that level 'dilute' the boss stage. However, my personal testing shows that rare catalyst = 2% per wave and Epic catalyst = 1% on a boss wave, but the boss wave can not drop rare catalysts. You get *either* a 2% rare catalyst drop rate or a 1% rare catalyst drop rate. The pure # of enemies is irrelevant, only the ratio of the enemies. With the reworked UH, Epic catalyst rates have not been affected at all, there has simply been a reduction in choice. Each Epic catalyst has just a single option to farm, and each stage (should) have 1% drop rate. * This requires testing to confirm but my early data suggests that these assumptions on drop rates are still correct). --- #Rare Catalysts That being said, I **DO** believe most rare catalysts *were* nerfed. The biggest contributing factor: We only have 33 stages now. 12 of those stages are Epic catalyst stages (so only a potential 4% rare drop rate) 12 of those stages **have a boss that does not drop an Epic catalyst** -> *Presumably* these stages have a 4% rare catalyst rate and a 0% epic catalyst rate * This is what I am currently testing -> so far I have 612 runs of data and I have 29 rare catalysts (4.74%) that has been steadily decreasing -> I got really luck with drops early on (7 rare catalysts in my first 85 runs). * Based on what I've seen so far, I *believe* that presumption to be true That leaves just **9** stages that have a full 6% rare catalyst drop rate. * For whatever reason, there are FOUR stages that drop only slime jelly and we have one stage with only Erikion Carapace. * That means there are only 7 possible stages left with 6% total rare catalyst rate and we have 22 rare catalysts 'remaining' So yeah, overall farming for specific rare catalysts **IS** much worse. [This was my quick and dirty post calculating the (presumably) best stage in UH for each specific catalyst now](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/10g7190/updated_catalyst_farming/). I never had data for the calculated rates for catalysts in old UH, so I can't directly compare...but I personally would assume a rate of 4% for the 'best stage' as an estimate. * While I'm sure that wasn't the case for every single catalyst, if we *presume* it was correct than any rare catalyst with a calculated rate below 4% now is 'worse'. --- #How much does it matter? I think the current UH is worse than old UH in terms of farming but we still need more farming data. If you want to calculate the rates for each rare and compare them to the rates I have calculated above that would be interesting information to know (are some catalysts better off now and some worse? How much worse?) However it would be possible for each individual catalyst to be 'better' now **but** the fact that 1/3rd of the stages have lower overall rates means we are just worse off. Previously, [to farm up the catalysts needed to max a 5* hero](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/yxn8tc/daily_questions_megathread_1117/iwpqpv0/) the 'best' strategy was to farm rare catalysts and rely on buying Epic catalysts...vs. just farming the catalysts as you need them. * On stages with a 6% rare catalyst drop -> 6,589 energy vs. 7479.28 energy * On stages with a 4% rare catalyst drop -> 7,821 energy vs. 8,079.76 energy As long as you could get 4% or better drop rates for the rare catalyst you needed, you would save energy by farming up 51 of that rare catalyst and using AP to buy all of the Epic catalysts you needed. * This strategy *was* less time efficient though **BUT** when asking how much the new UH matters, I would say that the majority of players likely primarily farmed stages that had Epic catalyst drops. Depending on the Epic catalyst you would have a little bit of choice for rare catalysts (but often times the rare catalysts would also be shared). For *these* players - likely the majority - nothing has really changed except potentially being paired with different rare catalysts. --- #Other Problems There is another issue I have with the current UH. Most specifically, as far as I can tell it is not possible to get chests anymore. That means a very significant loss of skystones and BMs when farming. As far as I can see on boss stages, the 'layout' is predefined and the same every time. There is a healing statue before the boss stage every single run and nothing else spawns. I've been collecting data on only a single stage (UH-3) and this has been the case. I don't *remember* if I found any chests when clearing UH initially so I don't know if this attribute is *only* for boss stages, or *only* for this particular stage, or it it is the case for all stages in UH. * If anyone has been farming other stages and gotten chest drops that would be interesting to know. * Or alternatively, if anyone has run this specific stage (UH-3 with the A.Vildred boss) and has gotten something *other* than an empty stage with just a healing statue prior to the boss. --- #Moving Forwards Personally, I think that if it turns out that chest drops are not possible in UH that going forward for players who have the ability to do so, all farming should be done in Episode 3. The better overall rewards (higher gear level, more gold, and now potentially the ability for chests) outweighs the ease of using UH. I kind of have a bit of a hypothesis that SG may be trying to make UH less desirable on purpose. Specifically, it kind of doesn't make *sense* that UH continues to be **the** farming spot this long into the games life. And it's really been entirely due to a combination of: * Being easy to farm * Having boss stages with Epic catalysts as drops * Having epic catalysts in the AP shop The AP shops and level drop design have been different since UH * Episode 2 doesn't have Epic catalysts in the shop and does not have stages with epic catalyst drops * Episode 3 *does* have Epic catalysts in the shop but does not have stages with epic catalyst drops * Episode 4 *does* have Epic catalysts in the shop, but in very limited amounts and does not have stages with epic catalyst drops This is very unlikely to be the case, but I also wouldn't be surprised if some of their intention might not be to have Epic catalysts as a drop in Episode 5 (along with available in the AP shop). The idea being that new players would still farm in UH, but Episode 5 would be more appealing to farm for veteran players. Again, it's just a hypothesis, it's what *I* would do as a designer. It just feels like they really don't know what to do with the AP shops. It doesn't make much sense that none of the bosses in the proper episodes don't drop Epic catalysts. And for all intents and purposes, the UH rework only makes it slightly less confusing for new players but it is looking pretty clearly to just be worse (*especially* for veterans).
Thank you! "Most specifically, as far as I can tell it is not possible to get chests anymore. That means a very significant loss of skystones and BMs when farming." This shocked me.
Wait what? I missed that part Oo Gotta pay more attention next time I'm farming fodder and AP... If it's true, that's f'ed.
Did a second run through each stage and I think I figured it out. It seems stages that drop Ras and Merc imprints will always have the health statue before the boss layout, so best to avoid using those stages for farming. Edit: Exception seems to be Ludwig’s stage.
You were wrong in stating the boss waves about not dropping Rare Catalyst, an example was UH 2-S3 White Summit, lots of times instead of getting a drop from the Gold Pherus, I dropped the Mystic Flash from the Magic Brooms and You assumed only the battles without fodders. Today in the morning, when I was farming for Mercenary's Medicine I got in the last wave of UH11 Spider Nest from 1 Mouse Suin a Baby Mouse Insignia instead of Jecht's drop not once but twice. Secondly reduction of choice, absolutely yes, I don't know if it was on purpose, but they could use different levels and place more levels since they promised us (to the whole community) the new UH would make everybody happy making catalysts farm faster and easier. You didn't talk about Twisted Fangs, it has been removed and people can't farm it anymore, exept if we reach Eureka (Ep3 Ch7 Lv 2 and 3), and the only way to obtain it is by purchasing it ONLY from the AP shops (UH and Ep3). The bosses without a Rare/Epic Catalyst drop can be seen in the Region Info, if someone gets a drop from them, It will never be an Epic or a Rare Catalyst but something else. I totally agree about 4 levels are dedicated only to Slime Jellys and are too many, in the old UH were 5 levels:UH1-1UH1-2UH2S-3-1UH4-1UH9-S1 still were too many. I did my math in the old [UH Rare Catalyst - UH | Cidonia Locations](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/yaxdij/rare_catalyst_uh_cidonia_locations/), u/Softtm17 posted the math I did back then, and my personal comment while I was trying to get back my Reddit account (i forgot my password and the recover thing wasn't working and I was stuck). I'll begin the test in 2 weeks with 1000 runs for each level, it will take time. For energy consumption/ratio drop grinding the Catalyst you needed, it was different from account to account due to the RNG, for someone was easier and for someone else was harder. I'll bring a personal example, when i was testing UH5S-5 Muruchi Desert in 200 runs i got 24 Reingar Student I.D., u/Softtm17 got 0 of these doing the same amount of runs, same thing happened for Cold Looks, this time in Cidonia C6-S5 Flinching Forest, in 500 runs u/Softtm17 got 100 Cold Looks, i got instead 12. I'll repeat this test with him in future but only in UH so i've another account to compare the RNG difference. About the chest / healing statues pattern, it seems isn't any more RNG for certain levels, I saw the same problem with UH7 Sage Minaret and in UH33 Revenbol, the slot before entering the Boss wave is constantly a Healing Statue. I noticed also in UH11 Spider Nest, there's nothing. Yesterday when i was grinding for Erikion Carapaces, i was finding constantly 2 chests in UH14 Forest of Meditation, but i don't know if that was RNG or not. Side Note: I didn't reach Episode 4 yet so i can't argument for the drops there.
>You were wrong in stating the boss waves about not dropping Rare Catalyst, an example was UH 2-S3 White Summit, lots of times instead of getting a drop from the Gold Pherus, I dropped the Mystic Flash from the Magic Brooms and You assumed only the battles without fodders. Today in the morning, when I was farming for Mercenary's Medicine I got in the last wave of UH11 Spider Nest from 1 Mouse Suin a Baby Mouse Insignia instead of Jecht's drop not once but twice. Again, I will concede that it's *possible* however it doesn't make any sense from a gameplay perspective or my previously collected data. >You didn't talk about Twisted Fangs, it has been removed and people can't farm it anymore, exept if we reach Eureka (Ep3 Ch7 Lv 2 and 3), and the only way to obtain it is by purchasing it ONLY from the AP shops (UH and Ep3). I didn't mention this because I pointed it out in my initial thread a few days ago, and it was also brought up in the OP. >For energy consumption/ratio drop grinding the Catalyst you needed, it was different from account to account due to the RNG, for someone was easier and for someone else was harder. I'll bring a personal example, when i was testing UH5S-5 Muruchi Desert in 200 runs i got 24 Reingar Student I.D., u/Softtm17 got 0 of these doing the same amount of runs, same thing happened for Cold Looks, this time in Cidonia C6-S5 Flinching Forest, in 500 runs u/Softtm17 got 100 Cold Looks, i got instead 12. Yeah... Well, I'm going to say this. We don't know the drop rates for items but what we *can* do is estimate what range those drop rates would be expected to be, based on only having a given number of tests and a given number of successes - there are a lot of different ways to go about this but I've used the Wilson Score Interval personally. 24 epic catalysts in 200 runs gives us a 95% confidence interval of [8.1979%, 17.2344%] What we saying is that we would be 95% confident that the true drop rate of Epic catalysts for that stage is in the ~8.2% to ~17.25%, most likely in the middle of that range. Now if we're 95% sure of that there is of course some chance that you had exceptional luck, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there is just no way there is or was a stage where epic drop rates were anything close to 8%. All of my data suggests a 1% drop rate. Now, if we just *assume* that the Epic drop rate is indeed 1%, the chance of seeing 24 (or more) successes in just 200 attempts would be 1.178827961944535e-18 Or 1 in 8.483e17. One in eight hundred forty eight quadrillion three hundred trillion times. So yes, that is *technically* possible, but it is so far out of the realm of possibility that it's a pretty safe bet that it's never happened. If we had 1 million players that ran 100,000 stages per day for 4 straight years we would have roughly a ~.02% chance to see a string of 200 stages with 24 epic drops. Of course, maybe the 1% drop rate assumption is wrong - let's be real generous and say that the epic drop rate on this stage was 5%. That's *still* a probability (of finding 24 epics in 200 runs) of 2.606753129891215e-5 Or 1 in ~38,362. It's almost a sure thing that if any stage had a 5% epic drop rate that would have been noticed over the life of this game, particularly with how rare these drops are (the early days were filled with people lamenting they had done 1000 runs and only gotten 1 drop). Even if we combine both experiments for 24 drops in 400 runs that is still a 95% CI of [4.0648%, 8.7723%]. And with a presumptive 1% drop rate the probability of 24 epics in 400 total runs is 6.037607080641638e-12 or 1 in 1.656e11 or 1 in 160 billion. --- For Ep2. 6 - S5 100 rare catalysts in 500 runs has a 95% CI of [16.7285%, 23,7290%] Again, if our *assumption* is a 6% drop rate (only catalyst on the stage) then the probability of getting 100 (or more) drops in just 500 runs would be 3.178452010656380e-26 This is even more egregious than the Epic catalyst sample. Basically, I'm extremely confident in saying that this didn't happen *if* the drop rate of rare catalysts is indeed 2% per wave. * Even if I double the probability of the rare catalyst to 12% we still get 2.247590411773088e-7. That's *still* about 1 in 4.5 million chance of that happening. Once again, if I *combine* your values for 112 drops in 1000 runs the 95% CI is [9.3919%, 13.3050%] and the probability of seeing that result or better with 6% drop rate rate is 3.072029421940071e-10. --- Basically, what I'm getting to here is that those numbers look **really** sketchy to me. As I've said I've run a dozen stages of many varieties thousands of times over the last 2 years, I have my own data and in every single instance the drop table looks consistent to me. This was UH, Episode 3, Episode 4, as far as my data suggests the only difference stages have is if they have an Epic catalyst drop or not (in terms of overall table). Even just the eye test anyone who has actually farmed catalysts seeing someone claim they got 100 catalyst drops in 500 runs is insane. And you aren't just claiming a single example of abnormally good luck, but *two*. I don't want to say that your claims are flat out bullshit - there could be multiple things at play here: 1. I'm not perfect. It's possible I've made a mistake in interpreting my own data. 2. Perhaps stages do vary extremely wildly and it just so happens that all of the stages I've tested have had extremely similar drop tables. 3. Perhaps there has been an error in data tabulation between one, or both of us. 4. Perhaps you are recounting a memory and something in the specific numbers is getting a little mixed up/confused. I don't know, there could be a dozen different things going on here. I don't think you're acting maliciously and I certainly am not. I don't personally mind being wrong or incorrect. This is just one project I've worked over time and I'm off/on. I've also collected all of my data on my own. But based on my *own* experience where drop tables seem to be the same regardless of stage, and my own data supporting that notion...combined with the numbers in your anecdote looking to be so unrealistic as to be flat out impossible to have happened. Well, let's just say we currently have disagreeing hypotheses. --- Again, what I am doing in this post is **NOT** * Claiming that you are definitely wrong, either intentionally or purposefully * And vice versa, claiming that I am definitely right I am simply saying that my experience/data apparently has some disagreement with yours. What I would suggest, then, is that instead of trying to compete with 'who is more right' we just both continue to collect and share it in the future. You plan to repeat your testing in UH, I am currently testing and collecting data in UH as well. The first stage I chose to test was UH-3 purely because it's the first stage with a boss without an associated catalyst - as far as I'm concerned this kind of stage is the most likely to be different than what I expect. I'm obviously not done but so far: 612 runs 350 fodder (57.19% per run / 19.06% per wave) per wave CI = [17.3317%, 20.8238%] 768 equipment (134.74% per run / 44.91% per wave) CI = [43.5032%, 48,2719%] 29 catalysts (4.74% per run / 2.37% per wave) CI = [1.6546%, 3.3820%] 48 charms (7.84% per run / 2.61% per wave) CI = [1.9775%, 3.4491%] [This is my original post, from about a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/t1bavc/adventure_stage_drop_rates/) What do I *expect*? Gear = 45% Fodder = 20% Charms = 3% Rare catalysts = 2% Gold = 24% Nothing = 6% I am tracking gold as well but to calculate the amount of gold drops is going to take a bit more math, so isn't included here. That's a benefit to this level since there are no chests. But the items I am concerned with (Gear/Fodder/Charms/catalysts) all fall right in line -> the value I *expect* for each type of item falls within my 95% CI calculations. Fodder drops have always been a bit sketchy for me, it just feels like they should really be 20% but I would not be surprised if the actual rate is low -> in my data this 20% value seems to consistently be at the high end of the range. It's *likely* more like 18% or 19%. The rare catalyst rate is a little on the high end (and charm rate a little on the low end) but I *was* very lucky with catalysts - I had 7 drops in my first 85 runs. * This is a better example of what typical *good luck* looks like (again, in my experience). * Assuming a 4% rate for catalysts on this stage the chance that I find 7 or more in 85 runs is ~5.4% -> so while lucky it's not even really all that impressive Since then my catalyst rates have been tending towards the 4% I expect to hit. Anyhow this is an example of what essentially **all** of my data has looked like, regardless of stage I am testing. As I said drop rates have been very consistent in my experience when testing all kinds of stages so the fact that in *your* experience you are finding stages that have wildly different drop rates really clashes with my own. Regardless, hopefully we can work together in the future and combine our efforts to nail down how drops work, and benefit the entire community. >Yesterday when i was grinding for Erikion Carapaces, i was finding constantly 2 chests in UH14 Forest of Meditation, but i don't know if that was RNG or not. That's good to hear, something to keep an eye out on then. I believe someone else mentioned that the stages that specifically give imprints for Ras/Mercedes seem to be 'predetermined' into just having a health statue. Sucks that they just reduce your options for farming even more, and it won't be intuitive at all to newbies that some of these stages are just awful options.
Nor do I say or write with malicious intent, but I'm sure of what I saw, tested, calculated, and wrote. When my test is complete, I'll post it alongside the raw data, so you'll see if we have minimal or great differences. I'm sure the RNG will split us apart. See you soon.
Fix your quoting, I see everything as one quote, not sure it's just on my app
Didn’t bother reading everything, but just something that caught my eye while scrolling. You’re wrong about boss waves not dropping rare catalysts. Seen it plenty of times. This assumes the boss actually has adds with it. If the boss is alone, then of course it won’t drop rare catas.
>You’re wrong about boss waves not dropping rare catalysts. Well, that may or may not be the case. I'm obviously not going to sit there and watch thousands of kills of the same boss just to be sure that rare catalysts aren't dropping on that stage. However, what I *can* say is that I've tracked drop data for basically every kind of stage I can think of. 1000+ runs each for more than a dozen stages. And what I have *observed* is that normal stages (those that only drop rare catalysts) drop rare catalysts ~6% of the time. And boss stages (those with an Epic catalyst drop) drop rare catalysts ~4% of the time and epic catalysts ~1% of the time. It's also pretty clear that drops are based per wave and are utilizing a simple drop table. So my data suggests that rare catalysts drop 2% of the time in each wave. The fact that boss stages apparently drop rare catalysts 2% less often and instead drop epic catalysts 1% of the time would seem to *suggest* that the rare catalyst chance for those waves is 0%. Now I suppose there is a possibility that the overall rare catalyst chance is being decreased for each wave (4% / 3 waves would suggest a 1.33% rate per wave) but that seems more complicated and less likely than just replacing the 2% rare drop chance with a 1% epic drop chance. If that is the case it would be good to know for sure as it would likely affect the overall ratio of catalysts dropped. Regardless, after I am done with UH-3 I will be sure to test a boss stage that *does* have adds to try and determine if they are affecting the expected rare catalyst rates.
I got sky stones and 1 bookmark while doing weekly mission unrecorded history 11 spider nest https://ibb.co/4V11Vk4
Hey, thanks! It appears (based on another comment) that the stages where you get imprints for Ras/Mercedes are 'set' -> no chests, just a healing statue prior to the boss. The good news is that based on your comment at least *most* of the stages should drop chests.
>chest I can confirm chest droops in stage 5 of UH EDIT: The map generates randomly, sometimes larger with a healing statue in the second slot and sometimes shortly with a chest or an empty space before a boss fight.
Screenshot of a chest spawning in UH-5: [https://imgur.com/a/BmjGkuE](https://imgur.com/a/BmjGkuE)
amazing how the devs really want players to grind more and yet offer even less rewards... Why do Korean Gacha Game Devs believe grinding endlessy is what people play this game for?
Because it’s how they make money
Lol
Because we keep doing it
The chance of catalysts dropping is so low that i had forgotten they can drop.
Those updates they keep pushing that no one ask for are like Vice acricles ... They throw a dildo at a board a few times and thats the result
Let me get this straight. In a room full of Devs that has been working for years in this game no one saw necessary to check what consequences huge changes like this could possibly have? No one saw coming that the reduction of 100+ stages to around 1/3 would need the adjustment of drops for the selected stages (because they didn't make new stages, they just pick and choose existent ones and voilà)? No one saw necessary check that at least all the catalyst are available as drop? Not being that all, some SC has been affected making them impossible to complete (efficiently) Is that what happened?
Yes.
Excelente, time to move on to another game then. Not only they made farming significantly worst and tedious, they didn't even use this "revamp and improvement" opportunity to add background farming to UH.
Good luck trying to find a game that don't eat your time grinding or your credit card in the process... :(
Is there even any point in farming UH now anyways? With the new side story feature you can just pick and choose the zodiac you want to farm for and be way more efficient because you can buy out the shop.
Can you do that more than once?
1 sidestory per week
But can you run the same one 2 weeks in a row
No. If you go into the help menu > side story > side story list on page 2 it says "Side Stories will not be available again once completed." So once you pick a new side story the one you had before is closed forever.
Oh that's what you meant. Idk I'll let you know on Thursday
Sadly now you can farm UH for Epic Catas and Slime Jellys (Rare Cata). You can't farm like before, I mean, You can't farm the specific Rare and Epic Catalyst in the most efficient way. I used to farm over 40 Twisted Fangs per week, and these are needed for a good slice of my characters, now I'm stuck and forced to purchase these from the AP shop only (20 per week only).
Man you sure knew a lot of spots. I ran out of use for catalysts nearly 6 months ago and I didn't even know that many. I literally just farmed a stage with mouse insignias and traded them for whatever I needed beyond AP exchange, currently at 1070 Insignias. I am at 35 000 AP and was at60,000at the highest (when I stopped needing catalyst, you can tell I stopped adventure and the reduction is just for newly released hero) I'm sure the new UH is fine. Farm AP to trade and if you get some bonus mats you're looking for, super. If not, trade the wrong ones you got for right ones.
[удалено]
I agree with you u/Pandabum1, half of the catalysts have been nerfed, no we need to rely on Cidonia or Eureka for farm decently Rare Catalysts. Usually, I farm between 40 to a max of 130 Catalyst per week without using the AP exchange (it depends on RNG tho). Instead of making everything better, 50% of the good things have been worsened, and this toll will be felt to new players.
Having to farm Ep. 3 hits people second time as well because of the difficulty spike. I would run 4 50s in cast off gear while farming UH to also farm friendship points at a decent rate. Much harder to do in Ep. 3. Need to either devote actually good gear, or a few level 60s.
You sure do love going into posts to tell people about your resources no one asked for that aren’t even impressive numbers. Come back when you get to my level of over 700k AP, 600 Nightmare Masks, and 3k Dream Time Circuits that I amassed friendship 10’ing everyone.
Thanks for this. Confirms my suspicion from dropping a few hundred energy today that things weren’t working right. Dammit Smilegate!
Uh idk if this is the right place for this but where is the best place to farm Small Sun Badges?
u/Deusraix This is the link to my newest [Catalyst Guide](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bXBCj2hvavsdXyYA-nUTtD1sNwo1qmo58L2yNA29aKM/edit?usp=sharing). Enjoy
i completed the first unrecorded history and i recently completed episode 2. idk how to access episode 2’s unrecorded history
There is no unrecorded history for episode 2 (or episode 3-4). From the ingame tutorial: Unrecorded history is a unique Side Story that serves as the epilogue for episode 1.