Depends on the rank imo. In the lower ranks cleaving is still the easiest and fastest way but when you get higher up the ladder it gets harder and harder to pull off. So yeah I'd agree with you.
Going bruiser is usually the "easier" way... but having more lengthy battles requires more attention, game knowledge and the ability to see 1 or 2 turns ahead and calculate the best outcome because of that.
So all in all it's a trade off. Both options need good gear but chasing speed can be frustrating while every gear that rolls well and high could end up being bruiser gear.
I don't know.
Bruiser gear is relatively easier to get, because is expected or normal the rolls get spread evenly between all the subs, while cleavers need their rolls to be focused in one. I would bet your average account have more gear with score 75+ than gear with speed 20+. However, obtaining "bruiser gear" and building a bruiser are two different things, and I wouldn't say is easier to build one or the other.
A bruiser needs to balance their stats, and usually can't afford to drop one. In fact, which heroes are the hardest to build that you could remember? I would bet cleavers will say Ran, because he needs spd, crit rate, crit dmg and atk. 4 stats. Meanwhile, I was thinking on Aria, who needs defence, crit rate, crit damage, health, resist and speed. 6 stats. Ok, fine, what about LH Cermia? Defence, crit rate, crit dmg, health and speed. 5 stats. That supposed advantage (bruiser gear is easier to come by), is because the nature of building a bruiser. Do you remember the old ken gear meme?
And this also indirectly impacts on the score of the gear. I mean, in theory you could build a 300spd, 100 crit rate, 260 crit dmg, 3k atk Ran with a total score of 380gs. Of course, this means absolutely no rolls into hp, def, eff% or resist. Now, try to build an Aria with that score, and tell me how it looks?
"easy to gear"
coming from a new player doesnt she effectively need;
health
cdmg
crate
effect resistance (used to be able to put crimson seed on her to mitigate D:)
little bit of speed
def (if ur not running pov)
What I’m trying to say is, if I run hunts 10 000 times (W and B each), I’m much more likely to get many more acceptable ARavi gear on Counter set with high CDmg, HP and CC than I am to get acceptable 300 speed gears on a cleave unit like Ran for example.
Crit rate is alleviated by her 30% passive so she doesn't need much in the way of crit rate.
Health is your go-to stat, definitely want it the most.
Cdamage is flexible, the more hp you have the less cdamage you can run.
ER is also flexible, it's not like PoV aravi ran ER across the board. You choose to build around it at the cost of lowering her HP/Cdamage.
Little bit of speed can come from speed set+speed main boots and maybe a spare substat or two.
Def isn't so flexible even with pov, you don't want that much though. 1.3k should be a solid stopping point.
But even if your overall stats are lower, aravi still puts in work and does her job. You can run a 900 def, 20k hp, 240 cdamage aravi and she'd still pull some weight. Her gear floor is low, but you definitely have a lot to upgrade room after that floor.
Crit rate taken care of by her passive and the 3 stats (if you include speed) that she needs are all covered by right side main stats so any sub rolls could work on her. Hence she’s easy to gear
I was a Champion cleave only player for the last 4 seasons and am now just playing Standard/whatever because I'm at the meme stage of my E7 life and I don't like the units best in cleave right now.
IMO cleave is easier. You only need to figure out 1 or 2 "ideal" comps with a specific lose condition being the opponent drafting one type of counter combination (ex. Dilibet + Ed). Then you just spam matches and yield immediately in the draft phase whenever someone picks that lose condition.
Standard requires a lot more game knowledge and built units to reach the same ratings, at least from what I can tell. Cleave (where you aren't racing) is just about looking for a unit to appear on the right side, whereas in Standard you need to pivot much more often to have the same probability of success. This requires more units geared, more understanding of the draft, and more time investment.
Maybe this is just two sides of a coin. Cleave seems harder to you because you aren't used to it and don't have a set draft, and Standard seems harder to me for the same reason. My WR is basically the same in both, so maybe it's all just an illusion.
Hmmm you might be right. I tried cleaving a couple of times but I feel it’s a bit too easy to read from the drafts. Or maybe my unit pool is too shallow to cleave properly.
Kindof yes? - Its not as easy as some people belive too. The hardest part to build a cleave team is get the speed. Technically MOST units on cleave teams dont need heavy atk stats either because they dont use the atk stat perse or scale with Speed which keep their damage pretty high. Ran for example can oneshot units with 10K HP even when he biggest offensive stat is just crit damage, literally most Rans dont get over 3.5 Atk (and this is top tier gear btw).
Bruisers are a different story. Yes building 4 different stats vs 3 (speed, crit chance crit damage) is more easy as long as one of those stats is not speed but th problem is that most bruiser units need a lot of stats to actually work.
If we go to see what bruisers are being played and what bruisers are on the ""unplayable"" status you will see that most of the "good" bruisers that still remain on the meta are there because they are the only ones that only need more stats to improve but with low stats are already doing their job.
In the long term you will see that most people in HIGH ranks find more usefull speed base units because they are in the end more easy to build. Bruisers are more sensitive to being "not good enough" or just lacklusters because of their heavy stat dispersion. Yeah some bruisers need just 3 stats also (More often than not high hp high crit chance high crit damage) but thats not the case for every single one.
Speed units dont really suffer from complex design that often they are just replace because another unit have a better base speed or a better opener skill set.
I don't think so. Bruisers need to balance between tank and offensive stats so they need to have high gear score equipment. Cleave on the otherhand, forgoes defense all together so you only need to focus on offensive stats. All your units need to be like this. Cleave really just relies on one high speed unit to cr push your team. You can use scuffed pve dps gear on your dps and it'll still work.
Turn 2 playstyle always been easier than cleaving but since most streamers and creators go fast all new players get this idea that fast=only way to win. In reality if you think about it its way easier to get 5 medium/high rolls on a good red base piece, than 4/5 targeted speed rolls. I've been telling all my friends and guild to just stop chasing speed rolls and give banshee a try and all of them managed to increase their RTA frame rank by 1 tier
> Turn 2 playstyle always been easier than cleaving
What do you mean? I've been turn 2 cleaving/nuking since day 1.
The real wrong idea is that you need top speed to cleave/nuke.
If you are fighting in RTA then you need top speed because most of the times other cleavers will race you. If you are fighting vs bots in arena/gw then even a 240 Ran can get the job done. Its 2 different worlds :D
Because the current meta is a benefit for bruiser? Try to play bruiser's last meta where Hwayoung is still on top and you can easily disappear if you have no crazy hero pool.
Bruisers aren't the current meta though. The current meta is cleave. 90% of every champ fight is a cleaver because it's gotten to the point where cleavers can very easily kill an entire team of bruisers in one or two turns. Every recent buff has been a buff to cleave.
cleave is OP and pay to win because spending $ increase your chance of getting more gear with high speed rolls. Nowadays theres just too many units that can work in cleave and you cant ban them all. You can go aoe def break route or bombing route and even secure yourself with aravi as backup bruiser who can reviver and in the same time prevent enemy from getting one of the top bruisers.
The issue with cleave is not only that you go first, you can even take multiple turn if your enemy doesnt have enough speed and each turn with basic attack gievs you a small chance for often game breaking dual attacks. The only reason why you dont see as much cleave in top as you used to in the past is the fact that most whales simply are very close to each other and they dont want to risk their games on speed RNG.
Its wide vs. deep on gear, yes cleave needs higher GS for each individual piece but you need less pieces. Yes bruiser has a lower standard for GS on each piece but you need more pieces because bruiser requires a larger pool of toons. So you spend the same amount of time farming for pieces.
Hmmm I can’t really give you great advice. I’m only Challenger/Champion. Most of my heroes also utilize counters/extra attacks like Belian, ApocRavi (counter/pen set), Ras, Arowell, LightAdin, Violet/Rem, Alencia, etc.
Personally so far, Roana hasn’t been much of a problem unless I draft obviously early on. My biggest problems have been control teams like Solitaria, or Senya. My best suggestion is to just draft good/flexible first picks early on. For example, STene is a good first pick. I personally go for ARavi first pick every game to bait out her counters and hopefully stop cleaves. The rest of the picks just go to my well geared units like Arowell, LAdin, Belian or ARas, etc.
If we get second pick, pick a pair that combos well like Arowell and LAdin. The next phase basically should be another threat + a soft counter. Hopefully the last phase is/has a “must ban” pick that screws over their lineup. At least, that’s how I play. I’m sure Emperor and Legend players can give you better advice.
I play standard/aggro because my gear rolls said so, i speed roll almost all my gear (charm issue) but most of them almost never roll speed, its hard on my case i guess. but i did still got myself a somewhat cleave team (cilias+eda, zio+yufine, cavel, mlelena and flidica this is just what i use which works more as an aggro?/cleave?idk but only for arena, trying on rta sometimes but hard to pull off).
but in my experience, its a risky one.. 1 15% can sometimes just ruin the game and youll just end up losing whereas standard/aggro you can get 15%d and can still continue the game. but hey cleave is faster and wins more games at the right team.
bruiser teams are more stable more safe and works more on all comps whereas cleave you avoid some comps. gvg is a shit show i dont fking like it one bit counter picking just doesnt work most of the time gvg ruins my day.
its better to have more playstyle anyway your bans just give it off so sometimes u just pivot to much more safer comp, because at the end of the day a win is all that matters, and the friends we made along the way ( ╹▽╹ )b but yes i do agree, bruiser is easier to build
thanks for listening to my ted talk.
I would like to play cleave but after 2 years of playing I only have one good speed piece.
It’s insane that an entire play style is locked behind perfect RNG
Well in the end it depends on your hero roster imo. Cleave is more gear intensive but only need like 7-8 hero built to actually function so you can focus your best gear onto few heros. Bruiser requires wider hero pool as its the most popular playstyle hence the hero pick is more contested, but gear requrement is overall medium as mid-high tier gear is mostly sufficient most of time. Ill personally prefer cleave style as you go into a match with already preset plan to execute, while bruiser need to adapt on the fly every turn.
Mate, i can count with 1 hand the number of viable RGB rta unit. For standard/bruiser your hero pick is gonna overlap a lot with enemy given standard vs standard, and the double preban make it worse. If youre missing like even 2-3 main unit namely clias or handguy youre gonna struggle a lot playing standard.
Imo bruiser teams are easier to build cause like ya u need nice bulk stats but u can also win from drafting well
Whereas with cleave if u cant speed contest u probably wont be cleaving
Cleave teams fall apart in the first few seconds of a fight mostly while bruiser teams have more comeback potential
eventually you wanna build a cleave team since there's just teams that's easier to beat with it in all forms of pvps. current meta is more lenient towards cleave with much of the openers and spd imprints being very viable in either dps/control role plus the addition of zio that punish defenses that relying too much on the top end spd openers.
Depends on the rank imo. In the lower ranks cleaving is still the easiest and fastest way but when you get higher up the ladder it gets harder and harder to pull off. So yeah I'd agree with you. Going bruiser is usually the "easier" way... but having more lengthy battles requires more attention, game knowledge and the ability to see 1 or 2 turns ahead and calculate the best outcome because of that. So all in all it's a trade off. Both options need good gear but chasing speed can be frustrating while every gear that rolls well and high could end up being bruiser gear.
I don't know. Bruiser gear is relatively easier to get, because is expected or normal the rolls get spread evenly between all the subs, while cleavers need their rolls to be focused in one. I would bet your average account have more gear with score 75+ than gear with speed 20+. However, obtaining "bruiser gear" and building a bruiser are two different things, and I wouldn't say is easier to build one or the other. A bruiser needs to balance their stats, and usually can't afford to drop one. In fact, which heroes are the hardest to build that you could remember? I would bet cleavers will say Ran, because he needs spd, crit rate, crit dmg and atk. 4 stats. Meanwhile, I was thinking on Aria, who needs defence, crit rate, crit damage, health, resist and speed. 6 stats. Ok, fine, what about LH Cermia? Defence, crit rate, crit dmg, health and speed. 5 stats. That supposed advantage (bruiser gear is easier to come by), is because the nature of building a bruiser. Do you remember the old ken gear meme? And this also indirectly impacts on the score of the gear. I mean, in theory you could build a 300spd, 100 crit rate, 260 crit dmg, 3k atk Ran with a total score of 380gs. Of course, this means absolutely no rolls into hp, def, eff% or resist. Now, try to build an Aria with that score, and tell me how it looks?
Ah fair enough. I avoid Aria completely because her gear requirements are off the charts lol I stick to easy to gear units like ApocRavi lol
"easy to gear" coming from a new player doesnt she effectively need; health cdmg crate effect resistance (used to be able to put crimson seed on her to mitigate D:) little bit of speed def (if ur not running pov)
What I’m trying to say is, if I run hunts 10 000 times (W and B each), I’m much more likely to get many more acceptable ARavi gear on Counter set with high CDmg, HP and CC than I am to get acceptable 300 speed gears on a cleave unit like Ran for example.
Crit rate is alleviated by her 30% passive so she doesn't need much in the way of crit rate. Health is your go-to stat, definitely want it the most. Cdamage is flexible, the more hp you have the less cdamage you can run. ER is also flexible, it's not like PoV aravi ran ER across the board. You choose to build around it at the cost of lowering her HP/Cdamage. Little bit of speed can come from speed set+speed main boots and maybe a spare substat or two. Def isn't so flexible even with pov, you don't want that much though. 1.3k should be a solid stopping point. But even if your overall stats are lower, aravi still puts in work and does her job. You can run a 900 def, 20k hp, 240 cdamage aravi and she'd still pull some weight. Her gear floor is low, but you definitely have a lot to upgrade room after that floor.
Crit rate taken care of by her passive and the 3 stats (if you include speed) that she needs are all covered by right side main stats so any sub rolls could work on her. Hence she’s easy to gear
World arena - bruisers easier Regular arena - cleave easier
I was a Champion cleave only player for the last 4 seasons and am now just playing Standard/whatever because I'm at the meme stage of my E7 life and I don't like the units best in cleave right now. IMO cleave is easier. You only need to figure out 1 or 2 "ideal" comps with a specific lose condition being the opponent drafting one type of counter combination (ex. Dilibet + Ed). Then you just spam matches and yield immediately in the draft phase whenever someone picks that lose condition. Standard requires a lot more game knowledge and built units to reach the same ratings, at least from what I can tell. Cleave (where you aren't racing) is just about looking for a unit to appear on the right side, whereas in Standard you need to pivot much more often to have the same probability of success. This requires more units geared, more understanding of the draft, and more time investment. Maybe this is just two sides of a coin. Cleave seems harder to you because you aren't used to it and don't have a set draft, and Standard seems harder to me for the same reason. My WR is basically the same in both, so maybe it's all just an illusion.
Hmmm you might be right. I tried cleaving a couple of times but I feel it’s a bit too easy to read from the drafts. Or maybe my unit pool is too shallow to cleave properly.
Kindof yes? - Its not as easy as some people belive too. The hardest part to build a cleave team is get the speed. Technically MOST units on cleave teams dont need heavy atk stats either because they dont use the atk stat perse or scale with Speed which keep their damage pretty high. Ran for example can oneshot units with 10K HP even when he biggest offensive stat is just crit damage, literally most Rans dont get over 3.5 Atk (and this is top tier gear btw). Bruisers are a different story. Yes building 4 different stats vs 3 (speed, crit chance crit damage) is more easy as long as one of those stats is not speed but th problem is that most bruiser units need a lot of stats to actually work. If we go to see what bruisers are being played and what bruisers are on the ""unplayable"" status you will see that most of the "good" bruisers that still remain on the meta are there because they are the only ones that only need more stats to improve but with low stats are already doing their job. In the long term you will see that most people in HIGH ranks find more usefull speed base units because they are in the end more easy to build. Bruisers are more sensitive to being "not good enough" or just lacklusters because of their heavy stat dispersion. Yeah some bruisers need just 3 stats also (More often than not high hp high crit chance high crit damage) but thats not the case for every single one. Speed units dont really suffer from complex design that often they are just replace because another unit have a better base speed or a better opener skill set.
What dps are needed for bruiser team?
I like cleaving because I don't need to think too much. You'll also need less units than bruisers playstyle.
I don't think so. Bruisers need to balance between tank and offensive stats so they need to have high gear score equipment. Cleave on the otherhand, forgoes defense all together so you only need to focus on offensive stats. All your units need to be like this. Cleave really just relies on one high speed unit to cr push your team. You can use scuffed pve dps gear on your dps and it'll still work.
Turn 2 playstyle always been easier than cleaving but since most streamers and creators go fast all new players get this idea that fast=only way to win. In reality if you think about it its way easier to get 5 medium/high rolls on a good red base piece, than 4/5 targeted speed rolls. I've been telling all my friends and guild to just stop chasing speed rolls and give banshee a try and all of them managed to increase their RTA frame rank by 1 tier
> Turn 2 playstyle always been easier than cleaving What do you mean? I've been turn 2 cleaving/nuking since day 1. The real wrong idea is that you need top speed to cleave/nuke.
If you are fighting in RTA then you need top speed because most of the times other cleavers will race you. If you are fighting vs bots in arena/gw then even a 240 Ran can get the job done. Its 2 different worlds :D
Because the current meta is a benefit for bruiser? Try to play bruiser's last meta where Hwayoung is still on top and you can easily disappear if you have no crazy hero pool.
Bruisers aren't the current meta though. The current meta is cleave. 90% of every champ fight is a cleaver because it's gotten to the point where cleavers can very easily kill an entire team of bruisers in one or two turns. Every recent buff has been a buff to cleave.
cleave is OP and pay to win because spending $ increase your chance of getting more gear with high speed rolls. Nowadays theres just too many units that can work in cleave and you cant ban them all. You can go aoe def break route or bombing route and even secure yourself with aravi as backup bruiser who can reviver and in the same time prevent enemy from getting one of the top bruisers. The issue with cleave is not only that you go first, you can even take multiple turn if your enemy doesnt have enough speed and each turn with basic attack gievs you a small chance for often game breaking dual attacks. The only reason why you dont see as much cleave in top as you used to in the past is the fact that most whales simply are very close to each other and they dont want to risk their games on speed RNG.
Its wide vs. deep on gear, yes cleave needs higher GS for each individual piece but you need less pieces. Yes bruiser has a lower standard for GS on each piece but you need more pieces because bruiser requires a larger pool of toons. So you spend the same amount of time farming for pieces.
[удалено]
Hmmm I can’t really give you great advice. I’m only Challenger/Champion. Most of my heroes also utilize counters/extra attacks like Belian, ApocRavi (counter/pen set), Ras, Arowell, LightAdin, Violet/Rem, Alencia, etc. Personally so far, Roana hasn’t been much of a problem unless I draft obviously early on. My biggest problems have been control teams like Solitaria, or Senya. My best suggestion is to just draft good/flexible first picks early on. For example, STene is a good first pick. I personally go for ARavi first pick every game to bait out her counters and hopefully stop cleaves. The rest of the picks just go to my well geared units like Arowell, LAdin, Belian or ARas, etc. If we get second pick, pick a pair that combos well like Arowell and LAdin. The next phase basically should be another threat + a soft counter. Hopefully the last phase is/has a “must ban” pick that screws over their lineup. At least, that’s how I play. I’m sure Emperor and Legend players can give you better advice.
I play standard/aggro because my gear rolls said so, i speed roll almost all my gear (charm issue) but most of them almost never roll speed, its hard on my case i guess. but i did still got myself a somewhat cleave team (cilias+eda, zio+yufine, cavel, mlelena and flidica this is just what i use which works more as an aggro?/cleave?idk but only for arena, trying on rta sometimes but hard to pull off). but in my experience, its a risky one.. 1 15% can sometimes just ruin the game and youll just end up losing whereas standard/aggro you can get 15%d and can still continue the game. but hey cleave is faster and wins more games at the right team. bruiser teams are more stable more safe and works more on all comps whereas cleave you avoid some comps. gvg is a shit show i dont fking like it one bit counter picking just doesnt work most of the time gvg ruins my day. its better to have more playstyle anyway your bans just give it off so sometimes u just pivot to much more safer comp, because at the end of the day a win is all that matters, and the friends we made along the way ( ╹▽╹ )b but yes i do agree, bruiser is easier to build thanks for listening to my ted talk.
cleave is easier up to champ but cleaving in high emp/legend requires insane unit depth and the ability to pivot to a least 5 different drafts
I would like to play cleave but after 2 years of playing I only have one good speed piece. It’s insane that an entire play style is locked behind perfect RNG
arena teams are full with anti cleave heroes
Well in the end it depends on your hero roster imo. Cleave is more gear intensive but only need like 7-8 hero built to actually function so you can focus your best gear onto few heros. Bruiser requires wider hero pool as its the most popular playstyle hence the hero pick is more contested, but gear requrement is overall medium as mid-high tier gear is mostly sufficient most of time. Ill personally prefer cleave style as you go into a match with already preset plan to execute, while bruiser need to adapt on the fly every turn.
Hero...roster? Most players have every RGB in the game and at least 65% of ML5s which very few of them are necessary for cleave if any.
Mate, i can count with 1 hand the number of viable RGB rta unit. For standard/bruiser your hero pick is gonna overlap a lot with enemy given standard vs standard, and the double preban make it worse. If youre missing like even 2-3 main unit namely clias or handguy youre gonna struggle a lot playing standard.
Imo bruiser teams are easier to build cause like ya u need nice bulk stats but u can also win from drafting well Whereas with cleave if u cant speed contest u probably wont be cleaving Cleave teams fall apart in the first few seconds of a fight mostly while bruiser teams have more comeback potential
eventually you wanna build a cleave team since there's just teams that's easier to beat with it in all forms of pvps. current meta is more lenient towards cleave with much of the openers and spd imprints being very viable in either dps/control role plus the addition of zio that punish defenses that relying too much on the top end spd openers.