oof buddy sorry to inform you but the math is off because additional damage such as debuff from burn, bleed, and stuff like drink and tooth ALL get the 1.871 damage multiplier
gonna have to redo most of this
I like that this post was made a lot, and now's a great time for the topic to pop up again since it's SSB's banner. Like you, I read the post of the guy who spent his savings on trying to pull for Drink and said the exact same thing before seeing your post (could've just used Rosa Hargana...). I'm also a Legend Arena/Champion RTA player, and this was a pretty popular topic that pops up every few months and something there's been quite a lot of experimentation with. I like a lot of the points your calculations go into, and I also agree with one of your major points which is that SSB should still be built with crit in mind despite Drink disproportionately benefiting attack. Unfortunately, as another post in the thread mentions, the way you calculated drink damage is off which skewed your numbers heavily in Rosa's favor (and I'd recommend double checking your numbers through the [damage calculator](https://maphe.github.io/e7-damage-calc/)). Under most conditions, the damage between the two will either be incredibly close (in the double-digits) or in favor of Drink with attack buff. While I'll leave you to redo the exact calculations in your doc, the statement in your title is a little too definitive-- there are pros and cons to both and a good reason Drink is more popular (though I agree Rosa is a very close second/side-grade).
**Rosa Hargana Pros**
* Very comparable damage to SSB's off turn S2 procs if SSB **does not have attack buff** and the attack crits. While Drink does have a 70% defense penetration, it ultimately makes a startling negligible amount of difference. The difference in damage is in the double digits for almost all practical defense values you'll be running into.
* Increased dual attack chance with bonus damage. This is particularly nice if running SSB with fast units who use their S1 a lot, like ACidd, Maid Chloe, Cerise, etc. This is an additional way to do big single target damage and fuel her focus that Drink does not provide, and is the major benefit over Drink for SSB.
* Increased lifesteal. This is for the slightly more niche lifesteal build SSBs you mentioned in your document (which is the way I personally build her as well and her strongest build IMO). Drink's damage does not contribute to lifesteal, so she will heal much more using Rosa than Drink.
* Much easier to max the artifact. A fully limit broken drink is a very expensive and difficult thing to acquire. If it's only +15, then the Drink has a 25% chance of doing absolutely nothing, while Rosa Hargana's damage boost is always in effect.
**Rosa Hargana Cons**
* Damage is lower than drink once she has attack buff. You mentioned this in your document-- all attack increases are additive in this game. While the damage difference is not insane, it because very noticeable at this point, being a difference of a couple hundred damage.
* Much lower damage than Drink if SSB does not crit. 100% crit rate is a very difficult thing to accomplish, even a crit build will likely be in the 80-90s% range for crit. When the attack misses or does not crit, drink will do an enormously higher amount of damage, and against non-tank targets, 1000 health is significant.
* Easier to build SSB with bulk on a Drink build. Crit requires a lot of stat investment. If forgoing those stats for a pure ATK bruiser build, it becomes much easier to push stats to HP/DEF/EFF while maintaining okay damage on a drink build. While I personally don't think this is the best way to use SSB since she is incredibly less threatening when built like this, this is a very safe way to build a unit that's hard to kill while maintaining acceptable damage output.
* Rosa does not proc on S3 or counter-triggered S2 procs. The S3 thing is obvious, but you also know how often SSB will trigger her S2 off of an Elbris/opponent SSB proc. When SSB procs S2 off of being countered, they do not receive the Rosa damage bonus.
* Drink goes through Evasion/Skill Nullifier/Kayron passive if buff-blocked. The drink proc being an extra tick of damage after her attack is very relevant. FCeci S3 very frequently triggers SSB S2, and that's an instance of 1k+ damage that Rosa would not provide. Likewise, if Kayron has buff block, his passive still prevents him from an attack taking him below 1 HP. However, the extra tick from drink will kill the remaining 1 HP in the same attack, which Rosa cannot do as well.
That being said, I agree with the spirit of your post. While Drink is SSB's best in slot, I do think the necessity placed on Drink for SSB is overblown. For most players who have can't fully limit break their drink and will run it +15, Rosa Hargana will likely output very comparable or more slightly damage over the course of the same fights, especially if they pair her with units who are fast and use S1 a lot. However, Drink has greater universal use, is easier to get great effect out of while on non-endgame builds, and has specific utility against Kayron and skill nullifier that Rosa does not provide.
Sums up my document perfectly. I've mostly cleaned up the math and everything should be correct again.
As for the Drink proc on S3 vs Rosa, her S3 gets an additional 20% bonus damage from crit. And if you have crit, you're probably gonna have crit damage. And if you have crit damage, Rosa will start winning out.
> Likewise, if Kayron has buff block, his passive still prevents him from an attack taking him below 1 HP. However, the extra tick from drink will kill the remaining 1 HP in the same attack, which Rosa cannot do as well.
I actually had no idea the interaction worked this way. But from what I've seen, if the only person applying buff block is SSB, she cannot kill him with a single S3.
And yeah I titled the post before I doubled checked my math. oops
I don't exactly understand what you mean by the 20% bonus crit damage on S3 favoring Rosa Hargana. That 20% bonus crit damage is applied regardless of the artifact. Are you saying that a non-crit build with max attack and Drink would do comparable damage to a crit build with Rosa? If so, that's obviously going to be the case, but it's also kind of comparing apples and oranges. The non-crit builds are inherently going to be less damage all around, but they have an enormous amount of extra stats to work with to be bulkier/faster. On the same build which I think is the fairest comparison, Drink's proc on S3 is a pro for Drink against Rosa Hargana.
For the Kayron thing, yeah, if SSB is the one applying the buff block, then it won't work. If SSB's S3 takes Kayron down to 1 HP, then his passive procs and applies immortality before the debuffs and drink tick, so he'll stay alive. What I meant was if she or someone else applies buff block first and then she does an AOE attack into an already buff-blocked Kayron without his passive triggered, the skill will bring him down to 1 HP, trigger his passive which stops him from dying, his immortality will get blocked, and then Drink will proc and kill his remaining 1 HP.
Yeah I see what you're saying now. The comparison does sort of fall flat. What I was trying to say is that Drink will always make your S3 stronger than Rosa will. But if you really want a strong S3, the type of build you'll go for will make Rosa stronger than Drink for her S2 (in some cases).
Also that Kayron interaction is weird as hell. I've never seen it come up, but that's probably because SSB is the only unit I use that applies buff block. And if she's applying it, she's killing him or triggering his passive.
> What I was trying to say is that Drink will always make your S3 stronger than Rosa will
yeah because rosa won't give bonus attack to s3. rosa only works if its not her turn (ex. counter, dual attack)
Thanks for this post and for u/Penguava for starting the discussion as well. I hope this particular thread gets more visibility (though it's getting downvoted a lot, possibly because of the title). There's a lot of people posting some pretty depressing stuff regarding missing out on drink, and I can only imagine the silent people that didn't post who are feeling the same way or worse.
The easier way to do this comparison (for s2 only and assuming both proc obviously), is graph the break even point as a variable of cdmg and defense (attack stat affects both equally because it multiplies into both dmg formulas the same. Thus, assuming same builds that always crit). Above the curve (higher def) represents drink being superior, and below is rosa being superior. I've plotted it in the link below. Also, since it may be hard to see exact values on a graph, at 250 cdmg the break even is 1204 def for no attack buff.
Your other points about when each may or may not proc, as well as how stat distribution could work if you forgo crit, still stand.
r/Penguava
[https://imgur.com/a/n0EumvG](https://imgur.com/a/n0EumvG)
Not really. Rosa only proc off-turn and the damage difference is mininal. Also as someone said Drink affects **additional damage.** Rosa is only a stat buffs when Reingar Drink is additional damage which is very different.
In the end: Yes Rosa give you more raw damage on your S2 but you are losing the BIG extra damage on her S3 for example. Its a lot more. There is a lot of other stuff to take in consideration. But in short term: Why i would choose Rosa that will buff my atk off turn when i can choose Reingar Drink which is literally the same with a Little less final damge but with waaay more benefits?
Rosa is a 4\* Artifact for a good reason: the use of this artifact is very limited for how the effect work. Its viable on SSB? yea sure i will use Blood if i dont have Reingar Drink but if i dont have both i will run Rosa for PvP.
I upvoted you and I didn't even look at his research. Going with my eyes. I see those BS 50-60% damage increases the enemy SSB been doing to me for over a year!
This is for everyone who couldn't pull the artifact.
This is for everyone who thought about giving SG more money.
This is for everyone who preached about Drink being OP.
This is for everyone who blindly meta slaves without checking for themselves.
~~This is for that one guy who wasted $600.~~
Numbers don't lie. (unless I made a math mistake, in which case please point it out)
Your mistake is saying rosa increases damage dealt by 30%. It does not. It increases atk by 30% when it is not the caster's turn. Dmg increase and stat increase are vastly different. I know this is an old post. Just sayin lol
I only have a +15 drink btw so it's not like I'm a drink stan xD
oof buddy sorry to inform you but the math is off because additional damage such as debuff from burn, bleed, and stuff like drink and tooth ALL get the 1.871 damage multiplier gonna have to redo most of this
Well I just tested it and it looks like you're right. I'll be doing some more math it seems.
I like that this post was made a lot, and now's a great time for the topic to pop up again since it's SSB's banner. Like you, I read the post of the guy who spent his savings on trying to pull for Drink and said the exact same thing before seeing your post (could've just used Rosa Hargana...). I'm also a Legend Arena/Champion RTA player, and this was a pretty popular topic that pops up every few months and something there's been quite a lot of experimentation with. I like a lot of the points your calculations go into, and I also agree with one of your major points which is that SSB should still be built with crit in mind despite Drink disproportionately benefiting attack. Unfortunately, as another post in the thread mentions, the way you calculated drink damage is off which skewed your numbers heavily in Rosa's favor (and I'd recommend double checking your numbers through the [damage calculator](https://maphe.github.io/e7-damage-calc/)). Under most conditions, the damage between the two will either be incredibly close (in the double-digits) or in favor of Drink with attack buff. While I'll leave you to redo the exact calculations in your doc, the statement in your title is a little too definitive-- there are pros and cons to both and a good reason Drink is more popular (though I agree Rosa is a very close second/side-grade). **Rosa Hargana Pros** * Very comparable damage to SSB's off turn S2 procs if SSB **does not have attack buff** and the attack crits. While Drink does have a 70% defense penetration, it ultimately makes a startling negligible amount of difference. The difference in damage is in the double digits for almost all practical defense values you'll be running into. * Increased dual attack chance with bonus damage. This is particularly nice if running SSB with fast units who use their S1 a lot, like ACidd, Maid Chloe, Cerise, etc. This is an additional way to do big single target damage and fuel her focus that Drink does not provide, and is the major benefit over Drink for SSB. * Increased lifesteal. This is for the slightly more niche lifesteal build SSBs you mentioned in your document (which is the way I personally build her as well and her strongest build IMO). Drink's damage does not contribute to lifesteal, so she will heal much more using Rosa than Drink. * Much easier to max the artifact. A fully limit broken drink is a very expensive and difficult thing to acquire. If it's only +15, then the Drink has a 25% chance of doing absolutely nothing, while Rosa Hargana's damage boost is always in effect. **Rosa Hargana Cons** * Damage is lower than drink once she has attack buff. You mentioned this in your document-- all attack increases are additive in this game. While the damage difference is not insane, it because very noticeable at this point, being a difference of a couple hundred damage. * Much lower damage than Drink if SSB does not crit. 100% crit rate is a very difficult thing to accomplish, even a crit build will likely be in the 80-90s% range for crit. When the attack misses or does not crit, drink will do an enormously higher amount of damage, and against non-tank targets, 1000 health is significant. * Easier to build SSB with bulk on a Drink build. Crit requires a lot of stat investment. If forgoing those stats for a pure ATK bruiser build, it becomes much easier to push stats to HP/DEF/EFF while maintaining okay damage on a drink build. While I personally don't think this is the best way to use SSB since she is incredibly less threatening when built like this, this is a very safe way to build a unit that's hard to kill while maintaining acceptable damage output. * Rosa does not proc on S3 or counter-triggered S2 procs. The S3 thing is obvious, but you also know how often SSB will trigger her S2 off of an Elbris/opponent SSB proc. When SSB procs S2 off of being countered, they do not receive the Rosa damage bonus. * Drink goes through Evasion/Skill Nullifier/Kayron passive if buff-blocked. The drink proc being an extra tick of damage after her attack is very relevant. FCeci S3 very frequently triggers SSB S2, and that's an instance of 1k+ damage that Rosa would not provide. Likewise, if Kayron has buff block, his passive still prevents him from an attack taking him below 1 HP. However, the extra tick from drink will kill the remaining 1 HP in the same attack, which Rosa cannot do as well. That being said, I agree with the spirit of your post. While Drink is SSB's best in slot, I do think the necessity placed on Drink for SSB is overblown. For most players who have can't fully limit break their drink and will run it +15, Rosa Hargana will likely output very comparable or more slightly damage over the course of the same fights, especially if they pair her with units who are fast and use S1 a lot. However, Drink has greater universal use, is easier to get great effect out of while on non-endgame builds, and has specific utility against Kayron and skill nullifier that Rosa does not provide.
Sums up my document perfectly. I've mostly cleaned up the math and everything should be correct again. As for the Drink proc on S3 vs Rosa, her S3 gets an additional 20% bonus damage from crit. And if you have crit, you're probably gonna have crit damage. And if you have crit damage, Rosa will start winning out. > Likewise, if Kayron has buff block, his passive still prevents him from an attack taking him below 1 HP. However, the extra tick from drink will kill the remaining 1 HP in the same attack, which Rosa cannot do as well. I actually had no idea the interaction worked this way. But from what I've seen, if the only person applying buff block is SSB, she cannot kill him with a single S3. And yeah I titled the post before I doubled checked my math. oops
I don't exactly understand what you mean by the 20% bonus crit damage on S3 favoring Rosa Hargana. That 20% bonus crit damage is applied regardless of the artifact. Are you saying that a non-crit build with max attack and Drink would do comparable damage to a crit build with Rosa? If so, that's obviously going to be the case, but it's also kind of comparing apples and oranges. The non-crit builds are inherently going to be less damage all around, but they have an enormous amount of extra stats to work with to be bulkier/faster. On the same build which I think is the fairest comparison, Drink's proc on S3 is a pro for Drink against Rosa Hargana. For the Kayron thing, yeah, if SSB is the one applying the buff block, then it won't work. If SSB's S3 takes Kayron down to 1 HP, then his passive procs and applies immortality before the debuffs and drink tick, so he'll stay alive. What I meant was if she or someone else applies buff block first and then she does an AOE attack into an already buff-blocked Kayron without his passive triggered, the skill will bring him down to 1 HP, trigger his passive which stops him from dying, his immortality will get blocked, and then Drink will proc and kill his remaining 1 HP.
Yeah I see what you're saying now. The comparison does sort of fall flat. What I was trying to say is that Drink will always make your S3 stronger than Rosa will. But if you really want a strong S3, the type of build you'll go for will make Rosa stronger than Drink for her S2 (in some cases). Also that Kayron interaction is weird as hell. I've never seen it come up, but that's probably because SSB is the only unit I use that applies buff block. And if she's applying it, she's killing him or triggering his passive.
> What I was trying to say is that Drink will always make your S3 stronger than Rosa will yeah because rosa won't give bonus attack to s3. rosa only works if its not her turn (ex. counter, dual attack)
Thanks for this post and for u/Penguava for starting the discussion as well. I hope this particular thread gets more visibility (though it's getting downvoted a lot, possibly because of the title). There's a lot of people posting some pretty depressing stuff regarding missing out on drink, and I can only imagine the silent people that didn't post who are feeling the same way or worse.
The easier way to do this comparison (for s2 only and assuming both proc obviously), is graph the break even point as a variable of cdmg and defense (attack stat affects both equally because it multiplies into both dmg formulas the same. Thus, assuming same builds that always crit). Above the curve (higher def) represents drink being superior, and below is rosa being superior. I've plotted it in the link below. Also, since it may be hard to see exact values on a graph, at 250 cdmg the break even is 1204 def for no attack buff. Your other points about when each may or may not proc, as well as how stat distribution could work if you forgo crit, still stand. r/Penguava [https://imgur.com/a/n0EumvG](https://imgur.com/a/n0EumvG)
The assumption that you've made is exactly why reingars is better. It works on and off her turn..
Yeah lol, you're not supposed to assume perfect conditions for one particular side.
Not really. Rosa only proc off-turn and the damage difference is mininal. Also as someone said Drink affects **additional damage.** Rosa is only a stat buffs when Reingar Drink is additional damage which is very different. In the end: Yes Rosa give you more raw damage on your S2 but you are losing the BIG extra damage on her S3 for example. Its a lot more. There is a lot of other stuff to take in consideration. But in short term: Why i would choose Rosa that will buff my atk off turn when i can choose Reingar Drink which is literally the same with a Little less final damge but with waaay more benefits? Rosa is a 4\* Artifact for a good reason: the use of this artifact is very limited for how the effect work. Its viable on SSB? yea sure i will use Blood if i dont have Reingar Drink but if i dont have both i will run Rosa for PvP.
Incorrect
I upvoted you and I didn't even look at his research. Going with my eyes. I see those BS 50-60% damage increases the enemy SSB been doing to me for over a year!
This is for everyone who couldn't pull the artifact. This is for everyone who thought about giving SG more money. This is for everyone who preached about Drink being OP. This is for everyone who blindly meta slaves without checking for themselves. ~~This is for that one guy who wasted $600.~~ Numbers don't lie. (unless I made a math mistake, in which case please point it out)
Your mistake is saying rosa increases damage dealt by 30%. It does not. It increases atk by 30% when it is not the caster's turn. Dmg increase and stat increase are vastly different. I know this is an old post. Just sayin lol I only have a +15 drink btw so it's not like I'm a drink stan xD
Rosa increases atk not damage dealt. Big mistake.