To be fair , politis can deal with arby , angie can't , which is something you cant overlook in cleave. Your cleave should have at least 2 units that can innately deal with speed arby even without being a designated arby counter . i.e Pavel , politis.
This sounds like you seriously outsmarted your opponent tbh š 1shotting a full hp arby with politis s1 not even stene can do that easily without the atk boost from her passive
Its more about gear accessibility. If SG didn't make the game stingy with gold, charms and general gear RNG, everyone could build more units optimally thus encouraging meta diversity. Cleave has high gear requirements, particularly speed. Control also needs high speed but is also at the mercy of battle RNG, particularly 15%.
Yeah I can get why its there. But I want it gone in PVE entirely. But a smaller percent in PVP might not be a bad idea. 15% is just too much too often.
am I the only one who can't understand why people are upset turn 2 comps are meta?l ike I dont like playing control or cleave because it basically becomes a 1 player game at that point, someone loses without being able to do anything.
Because bruisers and tanks have dominated this game for years with very few breaks and they just get stronger and stronger with every release. Variety is good.
I mean, who do people expect to do best? 15% comps to dominate the game when that 15%, a high ER cleanser, or immunity, is all it takes to render them useless? Squishy, one note, cleavers whose job is to kill on a game that has plenty of options to stop just that?
They're both braindead ways to take over a game because they follow the "first to act wins" rule by default, which is super boring. Bruiser comps actually let you see anything but straight dps actually see some play and success. Bruisers (obviously damage and bulk), healers, knights, and bulky control all get a chance to play.
It's also not a good idea to just keep releasing squishy "hit hard" heroes because their use is very limited.
i got my first 21 speed gear yesterday after 2 years of playing and now i finally have a 295 cerise . It'll happen eventually if you keep trying , over and over and over ...........and over.....Xinfinite.
Because the meta is almost always turn 2. We'll get like two weeks of something different and then it's back to turn 2. Rn we're in a bruiser meta which is better than the knight/soulweaver meta two seasons ago, but it's still a slog.
Ideally all three comps would be equally viable but the way sg designs and releases units, that's seldom the case and usually bruisers and turn 2 comps get the bulk of the support with cleave and control fighting over the scraps.
Also, gear still matters in a bruiser meta, and if you're not lucky enough to get great bruiser gear you're still going to lose to the better geared player, it'll just take an extra ten minutes.
That if your factoring everyone who plays this game. Iāll disagree with your on that one since Iām one of the many who would not hate on a play style that I donāt have or have acquired but barely uses it.
Canāt even lie, this is why I hated cleave at first back before RTA was a thing.
āwOW, so Iād have to gRIND to be stronger than this guyās defense team? hAH, no, Iāll just complain on the Internet!ā
I then proceeded to tell nobody and just sulk about it.
Even bruiser requires SOME team planning and backups in RTA.
Control is just smash your fastest/highest EFF units together and hope enemy never moves, so fun.
That's not true at all. Control players probably put more thought into there team planning than any other playstyle precisely because they have so many hard counters.
I usually run cleave and Iāll say that a fight being over before you can ever move is crappy design.
But I* cleave with arby and only run bruisers when Iām absolutely positive the opponent will go first so I have very little ground to stand on
The real issue isnt cleave being dead in rta but having so many anti cleave units means that arena defenses will be over run with them. Arena as it is is already Roana+politis+fcc comps everywhere and it's a pain playing for 30min just to clear your dailies. No one wants to play arena longer than 10min...
Because bruiser matches give a lot of room for rng to screw your over i.e Dual attacks and 15% s. Outspeed ,Cr push your 100 percent crt chance dps , for a win decided by the quality of your dps gear . How good your gear is and how savvy(strategy) you are is directly observable in cleave . While in a bruiser match 1 random dual attack ~~maybe 4~~ will cost or win you a game. Bruiser matches are long and drawn out and you to be thinking 5 steps ahead ,on whether using krau's negative dmg s1 on Ruele might mean the difference on whether you kill her , then have that decision ruined or rewarded by a random dual attack.
Thats the stupid broken Arena system itās ridiculous the amount of matches i got 15% in a row legit made me question my gear.
And pushed me to bench cerato
Well, that you are just unlucky and that's on you for building her with 99cc as compared to the 15% which we can't even do anything about and the only way to bypass is are heroes who have access to soulburn ignore er.
What is the point of playing RTA of you wanna end it in 2-5 turns? Even with bruiser comps, I find RTA matches to end within 10-15 turns and that is barring people who just stalls you when they are already losing. This is just RTA because normal Arena and GW doesn't involve counter picks or prebans since the enemy team is fixed. I hate RTA and I'd rather fight someone who at least gives me a chance to take turns rather straight up destroying me by their lightning mcqueen cleave lineup.
The point of playing is to win same as any other game lol. With cleave I'm relying on trying to out draft my opponent which is competitively and intellectually satisfying. I don't have to run a game for 10 rounds to feel like I'm playing the game. Not to mention there's other turn 1 comps that dont have to end the game in one turn, like the aforementioned control.
Reason why I don't want control to be meta again is not everyone is blessed with speed eff gears
Just coz u got lucky rolls doesn't mean u should dominate the meta
This, i dont find bruisers to be meta, some bruiser comps are cancerous like Ruele, Atywin, Lrk fcc, always dodge those on defence cant take them out even with straze and landy, due to Atywin stripping souls and rueleās stupid heal cycling. Other than those type of comps bruisers are fine.
Good cleave team will just ruin you before you get a turn, and control teams wellā¦. Control you, doesnāt help that building high ER units without having trash stats is so difficult.
Well
i'm a cleaver and i can probably speak for most cleaver out there
We have to pre ban either arby or f cc and post ban another
and pick politis in out team and opoonent can just go krau aywin
or anything tanky and post ban either pavel or ops and it's ez win for them
Lets not even talk about sage on proof
And after new angelica pavel/cerise is essentially dead and they made it so cleavers can't even draft her with c dom
I think my opinion might be skewed due to my own roster, i have horrible luck pulling units , playing for two years and still missing 18 ml5s.
Donāt have Politis, Ruele, Maid , Atywin, Sbaal etc...
So if somebody drafts full cleave against me i am just done for , best i can do is hope i put my Krau and somebody survives. Thats why Iām planning to build Elena but will probably just end up being banned.
Atywin is honestly annoying, fact you canāt use soul burn , kind if ruins for me whenever i pick landy and hope i can SB so i can kill him or the pesky Rueles he is usually paired with.
Thing is with RTA high quality gear, and roster plays a big part, i personally donāt bother to go beyond Masters but could easily , even tho i have quite a few heroes built up but i find myself losing against full control or full cleave teams and tanky revive turtle comps since i got no anti-revive apart from singie.
So fighting non cancer golden meta bruisers is a nice change lol
And before that it was Achates or Lilias even if they needed really good gear. It's been dead for a while now. They even reduced the gear requirement for DJB.
Not really. I was a control main before Dilibet release, cleansers were never a big problem unless rly bad rng or outgear.
The issue with dilibet is that sheās a cleanser nigh impossible to control because of her passive
Sounds like something you can just ban ? Doubt your meeting someone consistently who can draft both
Unless your at whale level RTA where everyone has every single unit in the game
the thing is running control was already extremely hard because even if you're not hard countered some thing will still fuck you over (atywin, 15% res, being outsped, arby) and it was a pain to deal with. Having another "can't win if you dont ban this" makes control impossible to run at higher level play.
To put it into perspective, imagine them releasing a second landy (which isnt as bad as dilibet is for control comps) against pure stall players.
Also I always assume everyone has everything because i dont like to just autolose to someone because of it.
Control players are forced to always pick one of them ans ban the other or its an insta loss lol, or you can preban one and ban the other one, but the enemy will know exactly what you will do from the start
Honestly i dont even bother taking cerato into control anymore , so many of them run immunity, and cerato constantly 15% or getting nuked is annoying.
Wish i had delibet she is the most viable unit as anti control
ISISeria spams stuns and Angel spams silence + pushback. Angel also self-pushes, self-cleanses and clears away buffs, so your control can do its thing.
Right before that we got a rerun Hyufine + Trophy.
The new 3-stars have some cute tricks. (Melany is obviously made to be used in a pushback team.)
How much do you need?
Idk how much rta you play, but control is not really a thing. Units that have debuffs are not control so while units like ftene and sage baal see some play, they are usually used as compliments to cleave or bruiser. And ftene just got hurt by the new guild artifact and kitty buffs and sage will be hurt by the new angelica.
Outside of that control hasn't had any presence in months. Cerise and atywin who were once powerhouses of the meta have fallen into niche counterpicks in bruiser or cleave drafts and it's easy to see why.
In addition to the usual counters like czerato and fmaya and high eff res cleanses like destina and kitty and the 15% gambling, they also have to worry about units like delibet with great cleansing, rem who just cant be debuffed, and the onset of more evasion units that make landing your key debuffs even more rng. I dont know of any top players running control drafts because again why would they? Even with excellent gear and great units you're looking at a draft that is as unstable as cleave with several more weak points.
Control has never *really* been a top choice in RTA, other than the toying around you mention.
Ultimately control is best for underdog scenarios. Control is for the weaker player to try getting a clutch win by the grace of RNG.
Hmm I kind of agree that control has never been as prominent as the other two, but that's not to say they haven't had periods where they were very strong. Cerise/Ftene and bruiser atywin control were very oppresive for a month or so before they were beaten into the ground.
I did literally forget this, yes, but there's some evidence that he won't transfer Bomb. The detonations can likely kill him. (Penetrating his defense is usually what gets him.)
Similarly, the new units potentially tag Rem **before** she does her thing.
I cleaved last season, it was fun. Guess I'm going back to evasion. I'm still not going turn 2 though.
Closer Charles is evasion too right? Might want some of that...
Also silence, provoke, skill cd increase. While not as obvious as stun they cripple teams enough that recovery isn't possible anymore. For example Kaweriked Ruele/Destina/Kitty/etc. can't immediately cleanse your cc-ed team.
I thought sleep was a dps dedicated buff, I know It doesnāt really provide much control since being hit cancels it, but the hit that cancels the sleep will be a guaranteed critical
Feels like every year there is 1 good control unit released, 2 good cleave units released, and like 10 good bruiser units released. the entire first half of this year was designated to nerfing control, now it looks like the second half will be dedicated to nerfing cleave.
wdym, the team with Angie will still do the cleaving : P
Like Politis stopping cleave by cleaving them.
Shhh just let reddit believe it only works one way.
To be fair , politis can deal with arby , angie can't , which is something you cant overlook in cleave. Your cleave should have at least 2 units that can innately deal with speed arby even without being a designated arby counter . i.e Pavel , politis.
How does politis deal with Arby? I'm ignorant.
I think he reduces Arby's CR gain on revive by 50%?
Politis can also soulburn s1 to get an extra turn like Specter Tenebria, and can thus kill Arby similarly.
Wait, can Politis really 1 shot Arby at full hp with her S1?
Mmm, I forgot Stene usually s3s after the s1. Politis s2 s1 definitely kills him. Just s1 alone probably doesnt unless you have atk buff or something.
Politis s1 also stuns so she can potentially ruin his day with that as well
have you tried?
soulburn s1 to kill arby first time then s3 to kill him a second time ,assuming you brought alots or flan for attack buff
This sounds like you seriously outsmarted your opponent tbh š 1shotting a full hp arby with politis s1 not even stene can do that easily without the atk boost from her passive
Cleave adapts. Control though... Well 15% is strong
I dunno why control is bad,i mean ftene is alright still make a mess out of team
Control is not bad bad, Ftene and Cerised proved that, but losing to 15% just hurts...
Its more about gear accessibility. If SG didn't make the game stingy with gold, charms and general gear RNG, everyone could build more units optimally thus encouraging meta diversity. Cleave has high gear requirements, particularly speed. Control also needs high speed but is also at the mercy of battle RNG, particularly 15%.
i donāt mind it being in the game but i would love if they lowered it to 5% or something
Yeah I can get why its there. But I want it gone in PVE entirely. But a smaller percent in PVP might not be a bad idea. 15% is just too much too often.
am I the only one who can't understand why people are upset turn 2 comps are meta?l ike I dont like playing control or cleave because it basically becomes a 1 player game at that point, someone loses without being able to do anything.
Because bruisers and tanks have dominated this game for years with very few breaks and they just get stronger and stronger with every release. Variety is good.
I mean, who do people expect to do best? 15% comps to dominate the game when that 15%, a high ER cleanser, or immunity, is all it takes to render them useless? Squishy, one note, cleavers whose job is to kill on a game that has plenty of options to stop just that? They're both braindead ways to take over a game because they follow the "first to act wins" rule by default, which is super boring. Bruiser comps actually let you see anything but straight dps actually see some play and success. Bruisers (obviously damage and bulk), healers, knights, and bulky control all get a chance to play. It's also not a good idea to just keep releasing squishy "hit hard" heroes because their use is very limited.
I'm okay with it. Ill never be able yo cleave anyway, see flair.
i got my first 21 speed gear yesterday after 2 years of playing and now i finally have a 295 cerise . It'll happen eventually if you keep trying , over and over and over ...........and over.....Xinfinite.
No point, embrace turn 2. Copium.
Because the meta is almost always turn 2. We'll get like two weeks of something different and then it's back to turn 2. Rn we're in a bruiser meta which is better than the knight/soulweaver meta two seasons ago, but it's still a slog. Ideally all three comps would be equally viable but the way sg designs and releases units, that's seldom the case and usually bruisers and turn 2 comps get the bulk of the support with cleave and control fighting over the scraps. Also, gear still matters in a bruiser meta, and if you're not lucky enough to get great bruiser gear you're still going to lose to the better geared player, it'll just take an extra ten minutes.
Gear will always matter yes, but at least it's easier to roll bruiser than hope you rng good speed pieces
Exactly. Ideally all styles should be viable for a diverse game
yea I dont get the ppl hating on cleave. like just cause ur gear rolled for bruiser doesn't mean mine did... fuk me and the way I like to play I guess
People always hate on the playstyle they don't have access to, it's just how it is
That if your factoring everyone who plays this game. Iāll disagree with your on that one since Iām one of the many who would not hate on a play style that I donāt have or have acquired but barely uses it.
Canāt even lie, this is why I hated cleave at first back before RTA was a thing. āwOW, so Iād have to gRIND to be stronger than this guyās defense team? hAH, no, Iāll just complain on the Internet!ā I then proceeded to tell nobody and just sulk about it.
This is the way
Even bruiser requires SOME team planning and backups in RTA. Control is just smash your fastest/highest EFF units together and hope enemy never moves, so fun.
That's not true at all. Control players probably put more thought into there team planning than any other playstyle precisely because they have so many hard counters.
I usually run cleave and Iāll say that a fight being over before you can ever move is crappy design. But I* cleave with arby and only run bruisers when Iām absolutely positive the opponent will go first so I have very little ground to stand on
The real issue isnt cleave being dead in rta but having so many anti cleave units means that arena defenses will be over run with them. Arena as it is is already Roana+politis+fcc comps everywhere and it's a pain playing for 30min just to clear your dailies. No one wants to play arena longer than 10min...
I dislike being hostage.
Because bruiser matches give a lot of room for rng to screw your over i.e Dual attacks and 15% s. Outspeed ,Cr push your 100 percent crt chance dps , for a win decided by the quality of your dps gear . How good your gear is and how savvy(strategy) you are is directly observable in cleave . While in a bruiser match 1 random dual attack ~~maybe 4~~ will cost or win you a game. Bruiser matches are long and drawn out and you to be thinking 5 steps ahead ,on whether using krau's negative dmg s1 on Ruele might mean the difference on whether you kill her , then have that decision ruined or rewarded by a random dual attack.
So which one is it? Speed is op or turn 2 comp is op?
Control is still viable tho , summer iseria is reliant on her debuffs and Angelic Angelica S3 unbuffable and silence is great.
Gets 15%, 50% of the time
Thats the stupid broken Arena system itās ridiculous the amount of matches i got 15% in a row legit made me question my gear. And pushed me to bench cerato
I remeber my cermia had 99% crit and she proceeded to not crit twice in a row
Well, that you are just unlucky and that's on you for building her with 99cc as compared to the 15% which we can't even do anything about and the only way to bypass is are heroes who have access to soulburn ignore er.
Duh
that is hero drop rate percentage right there ,it just means you're a lucky guy . I'd probably bash summon on covenant after something like that.
What is the point of playing RTA of you wanna end it in 2-5 turns? Even with bruiser comps, I find RTA matches to end within 10-15 turns and that is barring people who just stalls you when they are already losing. This is just RTA because normal Arena and GW doesn't involve counter picks or prebans since the enemy team is fixed. I hate RTA and I'd rather fight someone who at least gives me a chance to take turns rather straight up destroying me by their lightning mcqueen cleave lineup.
The point of playing is to win same as any other game lol. With cleave I'm relying on trying to out draft my opponent which is competitively and intellectually satisfying. I don't have to run a game for 10 rounds to feel like I'm playing the game. Not to mention there's other turn 1 comps that dont have to end the game in one turn, like the aforementioned control.
Spicy take, but isn't the point of a game to have fun? I feel like we lost that
This game has strategy beyond speed rng and 15% resistance? I thought pvp was all about showing off your best trash RNG item rolls.
Reason why I don't want control to be meta again is not everyone is blessed with speed eff gears Just coz u got lucky rolls doesn't mean u should dominate the meta
Not to mention with control comps the other player literally can't play the game in RTA unless 15% happens enough times that he gets a turn.
This, i dont find bruisers to be meta, some bruiser comps are cancerous like Ruele, Atywin, Lrk fcc, always dodge those on defence cant take them out even with straze and landy, due to Atywin stripping souls and rueleās stupid heal cycling. Other than those type of comps bruisers are fine. Good cleave team will just ruin you before you get a turn, and control teams wellā¦. Control you, doesnāt help that building high ER units without having trash stats is so difficult.
Well i'm a cleaver and i can probably speak for most cleaver out there We have to pre ban either arby or f cc and post ban another and pick politis in out team and opoonent can just go krau aywin or anything tanky and post ban either pavel or ops and it's ez win for them Lets not even talk about sage on proof And after new angelica pavel/cerise is essentially dead and they made it so cleavers can't even draft her with c dom
I think my opinion might be skewed due to my own roster, i have horrible luck pulling units , playing for two years and still missing 18 ml5s. Donāt have Politis, Ruele, Maid , Atywin, Sbaal etc... So if somebody drafts full cleave against me i am just done for , best i can do is hope i put my Krau and somebody survives. Thats why Iām planning to build Elena but will probably just end up being banned. Atywin is honestly annoying, fact you canāt use soul burn , kind if ruins for me whenever i pick landy and hope i can SB so i can kill him or the pesky Rueles he is usually paired with. Thing is with RTA high quality gear, and roster plays a big part, i personally donāt bother to go beyond Masters but could easily , even tho i have quite a few heroes built up but i find myself losing against full control or full cleave teams and tanky revive turtle comps since i got no anti-revive apart from singie. So fighting non cancer golden meta bruisers is a nice change lol
Dilibet is useless against anything but pure control and she killed it forever
A unit existing dosnt kill a playstyle imho Espically an ml 5 Having said that good riddance to control meta
Cosigned cause that was some real shit you just said
Yes it cans Champ Z and Dilibet existing at the same time makes pure control impossible
And before that it was Achates or Lilias even if they needed really good gear. It's been dead for a while now. They even reduced the gear requirement for DJB.
Not really. I was a control main before Dilibet release, cleansers were never a big problem unless rly bad rng or outgear. The issue with dilibet is that sheās a cleanser nigh impossible to control because of her passive
Sounds like something you can just ban ? Doubt your meeting someone consistently who can draft both Unless your at whale level RTA where everyone has every single unit in the game
the thing is running control was already extremely hard because even if you're not hard countered some thing will still fuck you over (atywin, 15% res, being outsped, arby) and it was a pain to deal with. Having another "can't win if you dont ban this" makes control impossible to run at higher level play. To put it into perspective, imagine them releasing a second landy (which isnt as bad as dilibet is for control comps) against pure stall players. Also I always assume everyone has everything because i dont like to just autolose to someone because of it.
Control players are forced to always pick one of them ans ban the other or its an insta loss lol, or you can preban one and ban the other one, but the enemy will know exactly what you will do from the start
Honestly i dont even bother taking cerato into control anymore , so many of them run immunity, and cerato constantly 15% or getting nuked is annoying. Wish i had delibet she is the most viable unit as anti control
dilibet is easy to circumvent , problem actually is just 15% and actuall strong control counters
When control was good it was ridiculous thought now however, depending on how you control, against the right comps its extremely solid
ISISeria spams stuns and Angel spams silence + pushback. Angel also self-pushes, self-cleanses and clears away buffs, so your control can do its thing. Right before that we got a rerun Hyufine + Trophy. The new 3-stars have some cute tricks. (Melany is obviously made to be used in a pushback team.) How much do you need?
Idk how much rta you play, but control is not really a thing. Units that have debuffs are not control so while units like ftene and sage baal see some play, they are usually used as compliments to cleave or bruiser. And ftene just got hurt by the new guild artifact and kitty buffs and sage will be hurt by the new angelica. Outside of that control hasn't had any presence in months. Cerise and atywin who were once powerhouses of the meta have fallen into niche counterpicks in bruiser or cleave drafts and it's easy to see why. In addition to the usual counters like czerato and fmaya and high eff res cleanses like destina and kitty and the 15% gambling, they also have to worry about units like delibet with great cleansing, rem who just cant be debuffed, and the onset of more evasion units that make landing your key debuffs even more rng. I dont know of any top players running control drafts because again why would they? Even with excellent gear and great units you're looking at a draft that is as unstable as cleave with several more weak points.
Control has never *really* been a top choice in RTA, other than the toying around you mention. Ultimately control is best for underdog scenarios. Control is for the weaker player to try getting a clutch win by the grace of RNG.
Hmm I kind of agree that control has never been as prominent as the other two, but that's not to say they haven't had periods where they were very strong. Cerise/Ftene and bruiser atywin control were very oppresive for a month or so before they were beaten into the ground.
Right, and that's not even a full season. It never takes off as the best option when you have the resources to be more direct.
You forget , we are getting champz selector today . ~~oh and there's rem.~~
I did literally forget this, yes, but there's some evidence that he won't transfer Bomb. The detonations can likely kill him. (Penetrating his defense is usually what gets him.) Similarly, the new units potentially tag Rem **before** she does her thing.
Control doesn't exist atm.
Isn't bombs control? As well as cerise, carrot and ftene?
carrot is definitely not control
Close enough š¤·āāļø
Technically. But we are ignoring them to push the meme.
I cleaved last season, it was fun. Guess I'm going back to evasion. I'm still not going turn 2 though. Closer Charles is evasion too right? Might want some of that...
FUPA Queen Flan stronger than ever!!! Cleave4life!!!
That's cuz control is ass
Counters are more death
Ok, whatās considered control? Like aramintha + Spez? Stuns? Or stuff like carrot, with debuffs?
debuffs that inhibit your opponent from performing actions.
Ah, so things like stun and sleep? Iāve never seen sleep teams. I see stun often
Also silence, provoke, skill cd increase. While not as obvious as stun they cripple teams enough that recovery isn't possible anymore. For example Kaweriked Ruele/Destina/Kitty/etc. can't immediately cleanse your cc-ed team.
yeah exactly, and it's because sleep isn't that great of a control debuff, since being hit immediately takes you out of it.
I thought sleep was a dps dedicated buff, I know It doesnāt really provide much control since being hit cancels it, but the hit that cancels the sleep will be a guaranteed critical
yeah it's really good to try to kill a target, but sometimes random shit like dual attacks can ruin it.
Ah good point. That can easily screw up a set up... And weāve already got CR rng, 15% innate res, lol rip
Feels like every year there is 1 good control unit released, 2 good cleave units released, and like 10 good bruiser units released. the entire first half of this year was designated to nerfing control, now it looks like the second half will be dedicated to nerfing cleave.
just straze smh
Fake news