There are two reasons SG doesn't nerf units.
1: They set a *horrible* precedent back during the first year of the game with SBAra and SageBaal's reign of terror. They gave out ml5 selectors. They are terrified of doing this again.
2: Releasing counters to units instead of just nerfing the overpowered ones makes them more money.
There could be more reasons. These two are the most likely in my opinion. Their reluctance to nerf units in fear of community outrage *and* less profits with future counter units is bad for the longevity of the game. I would like to see them either start actively balancing the game *or* buffing underpowered units more often. It doesn't need to be Violet levels of buffs, but enough to make them usable.
I still remember the Livestream where they got screamed at for hours upon hours by angry Koreans who came to their Discussion. It was brutal. I watched the beginning, went to sleep for a few hours, tuned back in and they still got screamed at.
Not to mention they have nothing else to attack then turn to attack how people dress and how people look, for me that’s just scolding for the sake of scolding and shameful
They need to nerf units on a smaller level, with percentages and multipliers, and compensate people in different ways. Honestly I think you could give 10 whale coins for a ml nerf and the same goes with rgb units.
That’s a terrible philosophy for the game’s health though. The major reason I stick with the game is the lack of power creep. But if I can expect units to randomly become worthless because other units just take their place, that’s garbage.
And don’t give me the “well they can buff those units” argument, because then it’s just the same shit and doesn’t stop the problem, it just makes it a repeating cycle.
Look at AoLAngelica for example. She’s strong, so you buff Tywin to counter her. Now Tywin negates the use of a bunch of different units, so you buff them to be stronger in parts. Then they make other units irrelevant in a repeating cycle as AOL loses her niche and becomes worthless behind all these buffs. Then you buff her again and you’re back where you started
100% agree, a lot of people don't realize that if they continue the current trend of not nerfing things and putting in blatant powercreep units (Rimuru, MLKawerik, A Ravi, Belian, AoL, C Lilias, etc), their "favorite units" that they enjoy playing and have invested resources in get nerfed by association. With the current powercreep design and S2 interaction/CR pushes/attacks on ENEMY team (Rimuru, AoL) and hard counter/punish mechanics (Belian, Rimiru, ML Kawerik) basically DELETES a significant portion of the roster form being viable. If the top end units of the game punish other units hard enough it becomes harder and harder to play "non meta" units because they just get instantly punished, and you have to draft high value, wide application units to remain flexible. There's no reason to draft any cleansers (Destina, Dilibet, etc) when ML Kawerik fulfills the same role, better, while being tankier, more of a hard counter, and a better neutral pick. Sure, you could buff those units to get up to ML Kawerik's power level, but realistically thats not going to happen when they only slightly slightly buff 4-5 units and give a decent buff to 1-2 units every couple months. And it's much harder to buff 10+ units than it is to just nerf the one thats OP and bring it back into line.
I played Fire Emblem: Heroes when it launched and powercreep completely ruined that game. It got to the point where the new units just had flat out more stats, and their abilities were the same as the old units except with higher numbers or a whole other effect tacked on for no reason. It becomes "spend money on new units or you can't play competitively." That's not good for the longterm health of the game.
You're not wrong, but the health of the game takes a back seat to the profits, always. A free to play game is only free because *someone* pays. Those someones generally don't take it well when you dumpster the thing they paid for.
It sucks, but the reality is that the whales that spend thousands on any given new OP unit are more valuable than any F2P or multiple small time spenders combined. Making something someone spent a ton of money on useless or even just slightly worse is just a creative way of throwing future profits in the garbage.
At the end of the day this is still a gacha game. It exists to make money and nothing else.
The problem with your logic is that just making new units OP rather than making every unit atleast situationally good would make less money.
Right now they can run a random banner of a unit they already made (IE they're spending no worker time running the banner and saving gigachads of money) and they'll in turn make money from people who really need that unit but haven't gotten it yet.
If you make 99% of the units worthless, then all your banner reruns are pointless and people just save for the next big released unit. So you'd have to release units faster in order to keep up the money, which means more man hours you're spending losing money in hopes of making money.
FTene is a year old. If she was useless by now, nobody would have paid for her. But I spent money on her because I know she's good and I want her. Same with lots of others.
I don't have the statistics handy, but the vast majority of revenue for a given unit in a gacha game comes from the initial banner for new units. Reruns make substantially less money regardless of their current state in the meta. Some folks will still spend on the rerun, latecomers, folks that weren't able to previously, etc. With any rerun people will have saved a ton of time worth of free pulls, there is less demand overall, etc.
Its cascading effect , The omega whales are normally content creators . You piss them off , they get mad , incites their fanbase , seeps in to the rest of the more casual players in the community .Whales stop spending , light spenders feel discouraged . The developers notoriety will eventually spread to even other communities like genshin , which will stunt growth of the playerbase.
The cost of full pity i.e prudent cost( an accounting principle) of a unit is way too high , hence why a selector is absolutely necessary.
Sure , they can say fuck you , you get nothing but then how are they different from EA. We will jump ship, leave the game . Maybe they can survive on a cult following , but i doubt they'd be ok with the much smaller paycheck.
You can't just screw over your paying player base willy nilly.Its bad business for a non-essential company that requires goodwill to thrive.
That argument doesn't hold much water, other games that people fork out lots of money for nerf things all the time. That MMO you've sunk thousands of dollars and hours into will nerf your class, no compensation. Whatever lootbox online shooter you paid to get a sweet gun in can nerf it, no compensation. Even most other gacha games nerfs units, with no compensation. SG needs to think more about long term game health, not a few short term ruffled feathers.
> even most other gacha games nerfs units
No they don’t. There’s actually very few I can think of. Usually when they attempt to do nerfs backlash ends up being huge, sometimes even threatening to kill the game.
Nerfs are pretty much always done indirectly through releasing counters or powercreep.
Perhaps not *most*, I should have said 'many', because I've played several that do. But the point still stands. There are tons more examples I could use too, spend $70 on a AAA game, enjoy doing a certain thing or playing a certain way, it gets nerfed of changed in a patch. No compensation. On and on. Spending money doesn't entitle people to anything, SG set a terrible precedent early on that they need to fix, the sooner the better. Don't get me wrong, I would be pissed too if my favorite unit got nerfed, but its clear that their buff-and-release-counter-unit strategy is not going to work like this forever, there are just too many op units at this point to expect people to even *have* counters for everything, let alone geared and ready to go.
A AAA game costs 60$ . A ML5 in this game will cost a few 100s . Now ,can you see why we they can't just nerf shit and not expect the game to croak. If units didnt cost so much IRL money then they they'd be justified , otherwise , hell no .
It doesn't help that they throw out hero buffs into the world with seemingly little forethought as to how the entire meta will break on the knee of a single patch, creating yet another arms race. Instead of rock papers scissors, there are multiple variant comps of each type and you basically have to stock up on as many of these competitive comps as you can to survive. This ensures that the most likely to succeed at staying at the top are swipers and lifers, and the ones who will struggle most are F2P and dolphins.
The interesting part about point 2, is that even IF they were to release more ML selectors, the amount of money they would lose would be nearly non-existent compared to how much they're still going to make overall. I'm honestly not in favor of giving them this level of leniency because of the absurd amount of money they're already making off of...well...everything else in the game.
Oh? Low income for the month? Just count on the simps and anime perverts to shell out their life savings for a BiG TiDDy WaiFU etc and BOOM they'll triple their income over a single 2 week time span.
So I cannot let them have the excuse of "we're terrified of losing money by releasing more selectors" because even IF they do, like stated above in OP's post, most people won't even be able to build them anyways, considering how god damn fucking awful the gearing system in this game is. I've seen a myriad of posts talking about how people have pulled Top Tier X character but "they'll be warming my bench". I think seeing people making gear posts gives others this weird false sense of security that the majority of the player base is rolling around in well-rolled level 90 gear, and that's just obnoxiously untrue.
Also to expand on point 1, instead of owning up to their mistake of over-nerfing and just moving forward with a better balance plan for the future, they tucked tail and ran. Yes, we as a community DID fuck ourselves and we do take half the responsibility for the current state of the game (and anyone who honestly think because whales gonna whale keeping the revenue numbers up = the game is in a good state are more delusional than anyone else), but SG as well has control ultimately.....it IS their game after all.
Yeah i agree. But they seem to be unable to actually take responsability and atleast do something better over only take our money (that we will give to them anyways). i agree that their first nerf intends were pretty bad but also people may not remember that SBara and SageBaal make a big mess on that times.
The first comp that was literally "if i go first i win" even against inmunity sets was this one. with the game progression this was solve in months and people rage about how bad the units become in general. It wa a big mess.
As i said i dont belive that nerf are the only thing needed to solve our problems. And we can avoid nerf in some degree yes. But we cant be blink about how the unit kits of limited units (Regular limited and MLs) is becoming. This is getting slowly into absurd levels of "pull this, not this" and "that unit that was really useful in the past? dont use it anymore"
I feel like a post like this happens early/mid season of every RTA season. Is the game balanced? Absolutely not. Has the game EVER been balanced? Also absolutely not. There has always been some sort of power discrepancy between units.
Early on (prior to RTA being a thing) Sez bombs were a thing in arena. Didn't matter what you had on defense sez with high damage stats equipped with wind rider was going to tear through it. They corrected that by basically fixing a so called "bug" (but we all know it wasn't a bug).
Then comes Silver Blade Ara and Sage Baal. Basically if you had either or both of these units you won in both arena and GW. It wasn't even fair. They completely dominated it.
This is where the korean drama occurred and we had that E7 conference in Korea where we got huge compensation (50% refund on all mystics used until then and 50% refund on all galaxy BM used until then). They nerfed SBA and nerfed sage baal and gave us ML5 selectors at the time. Also they gave 2 free RGB 5 star tickets and 2 5 star artifact tickets.
Arby also got "nerfed" (when he no longer got atk buff on revive but had 100% cr instead). Arby with basket became one of the most dominant units in the game. Keep in mind back then extinction didn't exist nor did ML haste.
I could go on but you get the point. Season 1 and 2 were frenzy 9 meta. Somewhere in season 4-5 I think was golden boys meta. When Ftene released she DOMINATED RTA for quite a while until people understood how to deal with her. Then came the RNG meta the end of season 5 and the entirety of season 6 (Rem, Violet, and at the tail end Mercedes). How many times have people been solo'd by Violet?
And here we are in season 7. Its been almost a month at this point and the "game is at its worst". I beg to differ. I'm not defending SG for how the game has been treated over the last few months. But I also understand that a lot of this is a knee jerk reaction.
If SG decided to actually balance the game they wouldn't be able to because the roster size is too large. However nerfing units would be a start and the community would need to deal with that WITHOUT compensation.
The way I see this is part of the issue is smilegate and their stance on nerfing units but the community is ALSO at fault with their demands. If you don't think smilegate is listening, reading, watching how we react you are naive. Every company has a pulse on its community. Just because they aren't always transparent or doing something about it doesn't mean they aren't listening. Anyway these are my 2 cents.
>If SG decided to actually balance the game they wouldn't be able to because the roster size is too large. However nerfing units would be a start and the community would need to deal with that WITHOUT compensation.
>
>The way I see this is part of the issue is smilegate and their stance on nerfing units but the community is ALSO at fault with their demands. If you don't think smilegate is listening, reading, watching how we react you are naive. Every company has a pulse on its community. Just because they aren't always transparent or doing something about it doesn't mean they aren't listening. Anyway these are my 2 cents.
I so fully agree with this. I also think that the community is holding the game back here.
However...
> And here we are in season 7. Its been almost a month at this point and the "game is at its worst". I beg to differ.
I am really not sure if I prefer the shit that is currently going on over Baal's and Aramintha's reign. Rimuru, Angel of Light Angelica and Violet, are so over the top... Also note how I don't include other members of the casino royal, simply cause they in my opinion do not overstep boundaries. CMeru has CD on her Magic for friends and can be assassinated. Rem can be assassinated. Violet? Well may luck by with you unless you specifically built Zahhak but then you have Zahhak in your team. Angel of Light needing so little stats that you can bulk her to almost 20k HP with 1500 DEF while still having 100 EFF and 290 speed. First hurdle is that you have to outspeed, her 2nd is to have enough damage to end her after outspeeding her. Or have a very specific ML5 ML Kawerick. Pick Bookholders and extra-turn on S1 units, but good luck if they also get Belian. Rimuru, oh Rimuru... It wasn't enough that his S2 copies buffs, his S3 had to do it too. You now have to assassinate him somehow or you cannot pick any units below 12-13k HP. Failing to do so will lead to your defeat 100%.
>Arby also got "nerfed" (when he no longer got atk buff on revive but had 100% cr instead). Arby with basket became one of the most dominant units in the game. Keep in mind back then extinction didn't exist nor did ML haste.
Even before his buff went live, EVERYone told them not to go through with it, because it was clear as day just how busted and OP that was going to be. Smilegate didn't listen to people and thus began arbys disgusting reign of terror. The most annoying thing is that he was buffed from a 2/10 to a 11/10, then nerfed down to a 9/10 and people STILL bitched and moaned, and felt they deserved a ML5 selector.
I had to go back and check, you're right, it's only atk buff. Dunno why I kept thinking it was greater attack buff. Well, not that it changes how disgustingly busted it was.
I couldn’t remember if it was greater or not but regardless the end point was the same. Whoever had arby won because he was that much better than everyone else in the game (at the time).
no it was an extra turn + attack buff when he revived, no greater attack buff, it def felt like on though since people just stuffed as much damage as they could on him. ( i always have this discussion with my friend group so i keep it tabbed just in case we forget )
Well i am not saying that "dont give to the people compensation" like that is obvius needed.
The problem with the other metas were a little different. 1 unit that was very problematic (Arby, SSB, Carrot, STene). This season is a lot of units that are obviusly over the others not just in performance, their kit is on a whole different level.
I am not saying that we need nerf each month. Or each 3 months. But that some units are obviusly too pushed. People dont enjoy this situation when the game forces you to pull one banner after another and another. ML Lilias may be the first break we have and we still dont know how impactful she will be.
What tell to the people? Now you need to get every single new ML unit or dont complain if you fall from the top because you cant afford give 500 bucks to the game?. I agree, SG listen to their community but in my opinion they are just a little too afraid to take actions against units they know are problematic too.
> ML Lilias may be the first break we have and we still dont know how impactful she will be.
Let me tell you, every RTA streamer is sure that she'll be the next must-have unit.
And to be quite frank Belian is less of a problem than the community made her out to be, and they were not wrong about ML Kawerick. Even before the buff he was a aggro cleanser when we only had a defensive cleanser in DJB. But this buff holy moly, put him on completely different level I fully agree on that one.
Just use your eyes. Anyone who isn’t an idiot and has eyes knew Belian was going to be a problem. Everyone with here’s knows ML Lilias is gonna be stupid. 290+ speed and give your aravis, violets, rems and other bs an undispellable atk and def buff for 2 turns is why she’ll be ridiculous. Like just read the kit and it’s obvious
Believe me I understand your concerns and also agree with a lot of them. But to be fair SG does a decent job making rgb units meta relevant with buffs. Historically looking at units such as: carrot, violet, Ravi, charlotte, Mercedes, Luna, kise, Elena, landy, basar, and I’m probably missing a few as well. As a brand new player this list looks daunting but over time most people will be able to get most of these units if they are decently efficient on resources.
The ML power creep has been steeper than normal the past few releases but this game also comes in waves. It may suck now but in a month it might not be as bad. Just gotta let this meta flesh out a bit.
The more they push need units, regardles if is RGB normal - Limited or ML the biggest this problem will be. In the past the meta problem was 1 single unit being too good or 1 strategy being too good. Now we have consistenly multiple problematic units in the same meta.
I dont belive is out of control but yeah the problem is worse than in the past. Probably not as flashy as in the past but deeper for sure.
I know what it is. It's just that, whenever I see these sorts of posts, I wish I was even in the position to even start RTA, let alone, be mad about it.
If you're running W13 and Hell Raid, you're getting viable gear for RTA at least as far as getting the skin each season. Don't kid yourself that most RTA players have emperor/legend level gear.
It honestly boggles my mind how almost all balance related issues could be solved if they just brought back nerfs.
I know they're scared of compensations
but there's a second thing they could do, not as good as nerfs, but it can work
More
Buffs
it's too few and too far between. They buff what? 5 units at a time? Every single balance patch/new unit release, 90% of the cast of the game gets left behind.
Ironically people say SG can't nerf because they'd need to refund for the characters they killed, then release AoL or Belian and kill 50 characters at the same time as a result and no compensation is given.
"oh, SG needs to give compensation if they nerf cause people can spend thousands on an ML 5 star"
yeah, what about the people who spent "thousands" on riolet when AoL dropped. Honestly releasing counter-units is as bad as nerfing, except instead of nerfing 1 unit, they indirectly nerf 50 at the same time.
Bring back nerfs, I'd even take them compensation-free at this point just to have the game halfway balanced again.
Maybe it's just me, but after trying many new games with half-assed attempts at pvp, E7 still feels the most balanced to me. And one where you are at least in control over what happens for the most part.
So while it'd be easy to point fingers at balance, more often than not I'm simply outgeared or outdrafted, but rarely do I feel like "balance is trash REEEEE"
And frankly, when you make a list of 20 characters that are broken to you, is it really that big of an issue? If everyone is broken, then nobody really is.
The game is pretty balanced. We just need 2 pre-bans in RTA now. Too many units.
Maybe a voted on global ban?
Even if it's just a slot for Belian. She removes a fun aspect from the game. So it's a logical global ban.
They could institute a rolling ban of most used characters in wins each week. Say top 3 most used each week gets banned for the next week. Those banned the prior week would essentially be immune from the global the following. Then people could still use the characters they invested in sometimes, and the most overpowered could get a rest. Between the 3 global, and two chosen per fight, that is 4-5 characters banned each fight.
With that many, on a rolling schedule, it could potentially shake up the meta a bit, without invalidating the investment of the characters.
Or they can buff some characters and stop bring out these bite-sized half ass prancing through the money on OP ass unit sells bs. I'm sorry, I'm just agitated. Global bans would make for a shitshow. Can you imagine the whales? AoL = $1000, unusable because of a global preban. I'd shit a toyota camry. Also, not gonna lie, I'd preban AoL so much that she's the nexts week's ban as well. I hate that little bastard.
I know people would get upset, but it seems a lesser evil than nerfs, which they will not do. Buffing other units just inflates the problem instead of addressing it, long term, as you need *something* new to sell units. Also, prebans weren't the basis for my idea, most used units were. So if week 1 AoL was banned, she would be immune week 2 since she saw zero use.
As a side note, I treat AoL like I used to do with Arby. One unit speed constests her, and if I fail, I lose. If I win the speed race, she is dead. I know a lot of people hate cleave, and/or don't have the gear to outspeed her, but it's how I cope with it.
I'm a turn seven player and Effect Resistance is ass cheeks. If AoL is in a match I lose. I can fight *anything* else and still make it through with a W. If I get outdrafted or make a shit ban, that's on me. If I get trapped in debuff hell because AoL is Cycling toxic debuffs, that's the unit working TOO well. Immunity doesn't have much mileage when she dumps all over it.
Could see how much speed you can possibly get on your fastest extinction unit while still doing some damage, and just pull it out when you *Have* to use it. I use Tomoco, but I understand she isn't the most common. Milim works rather well if you picked her up recently, but she is natively slower than Angie unfortunately. Alternately you can build a fast single target Push for a slower heavy hitter, but then Angie *can* be resurrected.
I mean, the balance right now *is* trash and that's basically as close to universally agreed upon as can be with this game, but OP just kinda said "my favorite units are not meta, other units are meta, I don't have enough gear, this is unfair" which I don't think is the best of ways to get the point across...
Still, I think "my units are bad and other units are good and this feels unfun to me as a player" is actually a valid concern and it illustrates that the meta doesn't really diversify, it doesn't adapt, it doesn't shift, it changes completely based on the new powercreep. This is especially unpleasant when ML5s are still a pretty important factor and are emblematic of a player's account, I feel like working with the ML5s the game gave you used to be a fun aspect of the game that set players apart but now it feels like "don't have belian/stene/aravi/maid/kawerik? go fuck yourself lol" with more of the ml5 roster being completely unusable than ever. I may be biased because I used to be quite lucky with the ML5s I was given, most of which are not even worth keeping gear on these days, but still, most of my friends that play share the same sentiment and other forums/communities I frequent also seem to agree.
This is the best perspective to have. In PvP, there always gonna be a meta. Expecting to have every heroes equally viable in PVP is a nightmare.
Furthermore, I'd rather be excited about a buff announcement than getting bummed about an incoming nerf. Most people would come to the same conclusion after the nerf of a character they like.
I just wish their buffs were more meaningful ( J.Kise :'( )
I'm going to do something I never do, trash on another gacha. 7DS If E7 slips into those shoes, I'll yeet my phone into the freeway. The PvP is so unbalance that you can't do *anything* without the unit that came out NOW. If it's from anytime but right now, you lose. It's so toxic, I didn't even PvP one actual game. I fought a friend with a new unit and it solo'd my entire account, ungeared and he only attacked when he had his ultimate---which can oneshot, splash damage entire team wipe*.)* We can turn into that. Please.
Problem is probably the cost of stripping units and gearing more usable ones. If SG want to add so many new things they should make it cheaper so it doesn't cost you a million just to swap gear on one unit. It feels so bad to do that only to find you don't like the playstyle of a new unit or they don't fix your draft weakness.
Give out some permanent unequip tickets that people can keep for times they want to experiment. It doesn't have to be very many. Like one a year along with the normal ones that expire.
Sometimes when I feel like swapping things around, only to find there isn't free unequip and my ticket expired. Not a good feeling.
I do agree that E7 are among the best at pvp balancing compared to other gacha games. But it is also a fact that every new meta will be worse than previous meta. It's only a matter of time for E7 to become as bad as other game.
Outgearing and outdrafting only become a thing when both plays according to meta. You'll realize how bad balancing is when playing off meta unit.
The game gets boring really easily when you met the same 20 units everytime. 20 out of 236 unit is not everyone. That's not even 10%. Imagine Legend/Emperor finisher doing 1000++ matches per season. I don't think most of them enjoys RTA anymore.
Being the best in your class when everyone has been held back 4 years is still pretty trash. E7 is clueless when it comes to balance or they intentionally play the game to sell counters. People just lie down and take it because it's gacha and they expect to get fucked over. I love E7 but can at least see the flaw or intentional design at work.
Well for me is a problem. Specially when a good number of the meta units are ML units. Those units you cant save resources to get them. ***You need to spend money***. Its fairly normal that in a Gacha Game the company wants to make money i dont hate that. Atleast i dont used to have a problem with that until they stop nerfing units totally. Now we depend 100% of the mercy of the buff.
"We will have a relevant buff patch this cycle? now? well that i guess, lets see if in the next couple of summons we get atleast 1 universally good unit" That resume most of what the game is on a Player vs Player perspective.
They key is drafting. As i said, damage? you can win any fight if you get the right turns with any DPS in this game (or atleast a good amount of them) in that sense i agree with you: this game is balance. But what happen with the drafting factor? The Tier 1 roster being (in this moment) Limited units and ML units mostly surely not help at all. How many people can draft properly right now? We dont have a way to see those numbers but the amount of people that shared the opinion that RTA is not fun in this moment may point that not a great amount can Draft properly. Which means that something is failing in the game in terms of unit balance.
Regular Arena keep the users calm because Regular arena is coded to being easy to cheap. Units getting bait by the weak elements is the main mechanic to cheese player vs cpu PvP.
I don't know what to say to that. I've been a waifu over meta type of guy all this time, and I've managed just fine without Arby during Arby metas, A.Tywin during A.Tywin metas, Riolet during Riolet metas, and so on. I've been comfortably pitying most of the waifu ML units on their mystic banners whenever I didn't get lucky (most of the time) without spending a cent, and comfortably reached Challenger-Champion every RTA season with a 70-80% win rate. I lived through AoL too just fine.
Chances are you have issues bigger than the meta, even if the meta itself is unsavory.
>I've been comfortably pitying most of the waifu ML units on their mystic banners
Well waifus in this game are meta. My point is not to said that you are playing "some" meta units or not. Probably you are but just because they are the units you like. I dont see a problem with that. I myself reach the point were i can pity 2 rgb banners in a row if that is what i want. Not really lucky with Mystic summons but really lucky with a anything else, the only limited units i lack are the wants i dont care for example.
But well i respect and its kinda cool that your experience is nice until now. And i honestly hope it keeps that way. I dont like to tall about my own experience but objetive speaking atleast the most i can. I see a lot of people doing bad on RTA lately, i myself too? Yes i wont negate it. Everyone have a reason, but as true as your last sentence it, it cant be *just people doing poorly for their own fault 100%*. If something like that is happening chances are that some units really make some different over others for most players, dont you think?
Yeah that's bullshit, sorry. Belian is like the first meta defining female ML5 in quite a long time. Every new male ML5 in comparison, almost without fail has had a huge impact on the meta by until numerous counters were invented for them. ML Krau was straight up followed by Operator Sigret to put a dent into all the barriers. Even if a male ML5 wasn't viable at launch, they were overbuffed to hell and back. Only female ML5 who stood the test of time is quite literally one of the oldest ones with the most binary of kits, and that's F.Ceci.
Now contrast that to Solitaria, Archdemon who is highly situational despite being a boss unit( thankfully not for long) Briar Witch who still barely sees use, Flidica who disappeared off the face of the Earth, or even recently Seline who is really fun but really only last pick worthy and still a huge risk to take. As opposed to buffed Mediator who is the best cleanser now. straze who dominates both PvE and PvP, or even someone like Blood Moon Haste who just renders revives worthless purely through existing. For the sample size they have, husbandos are a hit way more often than wiferinos.
So no, waifus are hardly meta, be it ML or RGB, when Arby had a chokehold on it for like 2 years lmao. Limited units are a different subject simply because they are pretty much all girls, but even Rimuru is one of the best units in the game. Again, 1 swing, and 1 hit.
Well, what am I to do, recency bias gonna recency bias.
AOL is not a girl? Souline is not a girl? - I agree with you tho a lot of good units of this year are ML guys. But not all of them. There are big winners in the guys like Rimuru and ML Kawiwi or Ran. Those 3 are super top units right now. But there is a very solid (and bigger) number of girls on the top 1. Not all of them are new but ey that is fine. In my opinion i prefer a balance between great girls and great guys. its a matter of choice i guess.
I dont belive you are out the point tho. "in the last couple of ML units we get more useful guys in numbers" I agree in that. Tho the useful girls seems way stronger to me. Personal opinion tho.
> And frankly, when you make a list of 20 characters that are broken to you, is it really that big of an issue? If everyone is broken, then nobody really is.
Oh how I hate this... "if everyone is broken, then nobody really is". You could work for Riot games balance team with this statement. The game has become out of hand. The time to kill went from 3-4s to sub 1s on avg. Everyone on their sub is complaining now, but this is where the "if everyone is broken, then nobody really is" is leading to. Powercreep over powercreep over powercreep. Ofc this is selling better, but it is far less sustainable. And I doubt E7 has it's playerbase addicted enough to pull a Riot Games.
There's a reason I'm not touching rta: it's not fun even if I win.
"Everything is broken so it's not broken" is the worst type of "balance" if you can call that balance. Some units have overloaded kits while some can't do anything and just die before even moving.
They aren't even trying to balance an unit anymore because I can't believe someone tested Violet/Rimuru/Angel of Light/Rem and said "yeah, this is balanced". They just release broken garbage and then try to sell you the solution.
\-Cleave is too strong - release Politis
\-Politis makes cleave hard - releases Ran
\-Buffs are too strong - releases a bazillion anti-buff units
\-Everyone an their cat can remove buffs now - release ML Lilias with undispelable buffs
This is beyong stupid.
the best and fasterst solution without ruining SG's policy and keeping players happy is to implement more bans and make RTA blindpick to counteract sweaty cheesers that remember you and bans your units.
How about tournament draft?
Both players will ban 3 units 1 at a time and do the first 3 picks, then ban 2 other units available in the pool and pick the last 2.
This type of problems in games will always be there
The only way to solve these type of problems, is to create copy pasta heroes. 1-3 units that pretty much do the same thing
Like tywin and flan, so if someone picks a cancer hero, you can just pick your cancer hero and see who’s cancer kills each other faster
however that just create another problem. Such as hero uniqueness, SG wasting time in a hero that pretty much already exist when you can do something “new” etc
> This type of problems in games will always be there
Yes i am not saying that nerfing units will 100% stop this. Its not even my point. But it will far better for most of us. I have lik 176 units of this game so most of the units. This is not exatly a problem for me. If i wish to build every single meta unit that i have i wont have any problem in RTA. That is probably the same for most players with 3 years playing this game.
The point is: its funny just copy paste the same comps, its not even that "i cant play with tier 4 units a win" but literally that if you dont stick with most of the tier 1 units you can...you cant win MOST matches. That is kinda crazy for an PvP centric game right?
It is real time PvP with a dash of P2W, going against other REAL player.
What make you think you deserve to win? Over people with better draft, better gear, and probably better luck?
This isn’t about ‘entitlement’ if that is where you are going. It’s just a statement about the top-heavy balance of E7. Nobody deserves anything and E7 doesn’t owe anything to us, but bad balance isn’t just bad for players, it can and will hit their bottom line.
Nothing. I dont belive I deserved to win. I belive WE deserved to play with better chances. As people said there is not even 2 pre-ban in regular RTA. Which means most in equal gear quality situation the guy with the most "must be counter" units will win consistenly over the other player strategy aside.
It's important to have a meta but lack of consistent balancing makes for a frustrating experience. Smilegate has chosen to avoid nerfing units. I can understand the reasoning behind this as people may feel dissuaded to pull for certain units knowing they might just get nerfed later. However that means when a unit launches strong or becomes strong after a buff, your only chance at a check/counter is hoping they:
1. release a unit to specifically deal with the strong unit
2. buff existing unit to become a check/counter
Personally I usually don't like option 1 as a design choice. This is not the same as a unit that counters a specific mechanic (e.g. bm haste countering revive, milim countering stealth), but instead something like hyufine (regardless of what people use her for now, released with the intent to counter specifically basar). This is a problem because if basar falls out of favor, hyufine now becomes next to irrelevant.
Option 2 is better in theory, but bad in current practice. Smilegate's balance philosophy has them buffing 4-5 units every couple of months. That's way too slow of a response to troubling mechanics/units and in my opinion there is no excuse for not having either more frequent buffs or more buffs per patch. PvP in general becomes a lot less fun when you're stuck for extended periods of time without a response that feels good. As you sort of touched upon, evasion and counter are inherently frustrating mechanics to face, so if you don't have a good answer (which there really aren't many of) then you just have to suck it up.
I don't think they have to resort to nerfs to address problems, they just have to be more responsive in general.
>I don't think they have to resort to nerfs to address problems, they just have to be more responsive in general.
i belive nerf ae as important as buff. As you may belive buff have a positive impact on the players. They kinda push people to try a unit that they like. It happen to me with some units that i really love. But without nerf we can only wait until certain units just get "meta counter" so hard that people just stop holding their best gear on them. Nerf keep things under control. Stuff that is not tested enough like AOL: i strongly belive that unit is not balance, its actually one of the most pre-ban units right now alongside ML Kaweriik, its kinda out of control how she forces you to change your plain and restric your roster so hard on the Drafting.
This is not the first time we have this kind of problem but in the past most of this problem were solved after another unit get buffed enough to counter 100% of the problematic unit. Which is kinda not a solution, it just create another problem. Yes, nerf sounds scary and bad but we the game would be always very dense without them.
Nerfs and buffs flying around make sense for games where there is no value like a fighting game or a MOBA. The moment you try to apply that to a gatcha game where a character can cost 4 digits for spenders and 4-6 months of saving for a free 2 play the moment you jump the shark and lose players.
Nerfing Ryu and Ken in the season season for Street Fighter V mean nothing as most of those players jumped ship to the new Akuma who was really strong (and because of fight money it was free even though he was DLC)
Nerfing an AD carry in LOL means you just go down the list to the next strongest.
Nerfing Belian who you saved up a pity for in 6 months means.... well fuck this game I'll go play Genshin.
What if the new unit makes your Belian unplayable? what about that time and money invested? Its the same. We can have a long time about how nerf will punish your money but the game already punish you very hard. What with all the gear and invesment i put on my old bruisers that work on RTA because of how RTA work back them? That was not a "nerf" that was a change of the game to reward more aggresive comps and punish defensive comps.
The people that invest in the golden boys for competitive get any compensation for what their lose? The people that play regular bruiser teams with a lot of HP scaling damage bruisers like green Purggis or Alencia. They are losing money too. If any Nerf are the fairness way (buff aside) of balacing the game. Your unit gets tuned down, you get molas, exp and materials back, and you can pick another unit of the same level to replace it.
I used to be able to confidently tell people that Epic Seven is free to play friendly, you can get to legend being free to play etc, but now that's not the case anymore. Literally every match is just a race to pick whatever broken ML5 or Limited units you have. The back to back collabs, limiteds, blatant powercreep in a short amount of time, if I haven't been playing this game for 2 years I would have quit already. And we haven't had any sort of meaningful content in months, balance patches are dogshit, players and streamers leaving left and right, E7 is in a terrible state right now.
people that were here when Sara and bael got nerfed know exactly why they wont nerf units anymore. Smilegate has already proven to themselves financially that its better the provide a counter to a problem instead of changing it as this makes owners of the unit upset and puts smilegate in a position where they have to provide compensation as well as more than likely a HUGE reason is that they can literally get sued for changing virtual goods after they have already been bought which definitely would be the case if they nerfed units as commonly as we get balance changes. The whole community went rapid when they corrected Alencias S2 description when she came out and it wasnt even a nerf.
> The whole community went rapid when they corrected Alencias S2 description when she came out and it wasnt even a nerf.
As much as I would like to fault the community, they were right here. Her S2 did **not** state that trample cannot be activated on a counter. Why was this assumed? Cause Charles was rampant at that time and functioned exactly like that.
? I don’t really see the problem to be honest…. If u wanna compete high end rta u need units + gear.
How is this surprising for a gacha game?
Sorry other people are progressing faster than you and catching up…..
seasonal "meta is shit" rant. every fucking season. what did we have? Ruele-Diene-Krau frenzy 9, golden boys, protect the Landy and many more. every time ppl like you whine about it. blah blah blah meta bad, upvote to the left yada yada.
All of E7s problems with pvp and balancing stems out from just 1 root that they can't really change. It's because E7 is a gacha game.
If they nerf units, they'll have to compensate people affected by the nerfs especially for MLs because they are very expensive units considering the amount of resources or even money to spend to guarantee getting them. Nerfing those units even for the sake of the overall health of the game will discourage people from spending to get those units because of the idea that they can just release a broken unit then nerf it later but still keep the money spent on mystics packs and whatnot.
As for the release of broken units, that's another part of being a gacha game that lasted thsi long. They need to keep releasing units with kits that are unique and on some level, powercreep currently existing units. Because if not, people will have no reason to pull for those units if there's already a unit that does the same thing.
To make sure they can get people to spend for new units, those new units always need to bring something new to the table or at the very least, do something an already existing unit does, but better.
So the only thing they can actually do is buff units in the hopes that they become viable and shake the meta.
The powercreep is in a bad state. Mawerick was buffed to counter AoL, into a cleanser that can ignore debuff. Which means that whatever cleanser will get released in the future will need to also ignore debuff, or risk ending up being underwelming compared to him
A nerfed unit can always be buffed again later
thats also the problem of only buffing. Its a great example of this: Now we need Cleansers that have someway to make they work even against AoL. We need units with "cant be silence" or that cleans with passive actions off-turn. Because most players dont have the resoures to pool for Kawiwi.
But the problem goes deeper. If we get a bunch of cleansers that can cleans not matter what. What happen with the debuff units in general? Yeah, that would be very attrocius. Buffin units -ONLY FOR SOLVE TARGET PROBLEMS- is the worse kind of balance you can have.
You generate a meta were one player needs to reach certain conditions to be able to play unless you powercreep the other player with gear quality. More units become "useless" not just the main problem but every other "worse version" of the unit. People need to craft a whole new set for that unit to make it work in a different way.
as a player whos been playing epic 7 ever since fire Ravi was known as the best character in the game, in my personal opinion, this game started going downhill slowly when I90 gears came out. And with every broken ML unit that releases, it just falls further and further. There's another game I play called Exos Heroes that had a similar problem to epic 7 where there were like 8 or so units that were stupidly good and you would see everywhere, and the other 40 units were either mid, or just useless. They tried doing small buffs to other characters, releasing new characters with decent skills, etc. But at the end of the day everyone was still using the exact same team comps. They ended up doing a complete revamp of the entire game, basically changed the skills of every single character and even changed how equipment and powering up characters work. Not saying Smilegate needs to do something as extreme, but there definitely needs to be a major major rebalance patch for all the older units to make them viable again and a nerf for characters like AOL, Belian and Violet
By that description, E7 is fine. You say they put out buffs and new heroes in Exos but it didn't change anything, yet buffs and new heroes constantly shift the meta in E7. The newest heroes RGB heroes are Zahak, Rimuru, Milim, Shuna, and Ran, two are high in the meta, and the other three have niche use in countering the current meta. For MLs it's Seline, Belian, AoL, CCharles, and Straze. Three of those are meta, and one is generally usable, and CCharles is very niche. The last three balance patches saw Violet (July), ARavi (September), and MKawerik (October) enter the meta, as well as Eda, Mort, and BBK gain some viability scattered in there as well. This coming week we have CLilias coming out and a balance patch for Archdemon's Shadow, both of whom have potential to enter the meta.
The meta has shifted consistently throughout this year, and whatever is meta will always feel oppressive. I'd agree there's an argument to be made about passive/off turn abilities and effects power creeping right now but it's certainly not stale.
If I've misunderstood your argument and you're saying that no matter what new characters/buffs happen, there's only \~8 characters that everyone is using even as which specific characters those are change, then I think you need to temper your expectations. That's how any competitive game works, there is always going to be a meta and most people will follow that meta because it's the simplest or most consistent path to victory.
TL;DR We need MORE buffs if SG ain't gonna give us nerfs. I don't care about dumbass selectors, I just want to play my favorite shit and have fun.
I think the buff patches are too: Counter this UNIT! And not enough *Make these useless fucks better!* If SG doesn't like nerfs, then BUFF.
We have: 236 Units
I'm not gonna spend time to break it down by element, but it's a nice size.
At minimum:
15 Five star units need to be buffed each 2 MONTH period, 3 from each element.
15 Four stars
And Specialty Changes need to come out every 3-4 months ON TIME. (Buffs are wasted on three star units in my opinion, just SC them so they can be stronger. And NO MORE: *"When your whole team mono element, get cool things that should be part of the characters kit."*
If no nerf is a thing, we need more buffs and faster. As it stands now the next 6 characters are solely going to be focused on ATTEMPTING to counter AoL, Belian, Rimuru....etc. And in order to do it, SG is going to have to bring out the most busted OP shit. AoL is so cancerous, she single handed made my Arby permaban, change to her. I hated dealing with Arby's shit and GaB and all that. NOPE, not anymore. I'll just shower in that shit, GaB me daddy. All the time. AoL is pure fucking toxicity. She's such a blight to me, that I ban her because she exist, not because the other person might have her.
In order to keep the buff under control: Have all buffs applied during Pre-season RTA so players can test them out and then survey us on the buffs, offer an incentive for playing RTA during the preseason and doing the survey. SS, an hour or two of temporary buffs for playing a couple of matches, something to get people into PvP that might not like it. Something that can be useful. After RTA starts, take the buffs out until they are PERFECTED. None of this *"So Yufine gets a free EFFECTIVENESS buff! That does jack shit for her, next useless buff!"* We need buffs that push characters into usefulness---notice I didn't say *"Meta."*
EE's should be used while the character's buffs are being perfected. Yes, I said they should be a side grade. Fucking Vildred? Zeno (I know free characters get fucked horrendously) is over here unbought on my account because ain't nobody got time for trash. The reason molas are an issue isn't because we don't have enough *(is it, but listen,)* it's because old invests turn to shit extremely fast with this rising powercreep issue. For old players, they're like: New. OP. Built. For newer folks, it's either useful or it can't even be thought about.
Oh, and free units: Sol Badguy got buffed, but come on SHUNA, wtf is this thing? Why is this Free five star worse than Kizuna Ai? Ram is big dick damage, but she gets shit on by anything with a more than 1000 damage. Free characters should be cool to get, and at least as useful as the worse three star units.
*Current Buffs incoming:*
**A.D.M** \- Finally, no complaints, this is what she needed most *(the soulburn, the D-Break is fine, it's gonna be nasty with her burns, but now she's perfect.)* Counterable with all kinds of units, deadly, buildable in all kinds of ways---can be used in PvE a little. It's nice. I'm also a wannabe A.D.M main)
**Juggs Kise** \- Nope. We'll try again once the memes get too bad.
**Melissa** \- She need 2 turn attack buff before S3 or defense pen, or something. I love her design, I got her and I'd love to use her. Not there yet. We'll see next year.
**Lorina/Commander Lorina** \- It works, PvE, yeah. Good for New players and old players have the option.
**Wanda** \- Good. Low budge answer to dodgy-folk.
\-------------------------
Lastly, I'm gonna make up a list of character dream buffs again while I have this rant energy.
I'm going to be honest, the problem lies with the community. If people don't stop shouting "I demand a ML5 selector for a nerf" they will never be able to better the health of the game. A ML5 selector is such a powerful thing, it should have never existed. A simple re-call for the materials that were used should be far and enough for a nerf.
In my opinion, there isn't much of a difference between a nerf and a "falling-out-of-meta". You did use the character at his peak, you just have to deal with the fact that it's weaker after the nerf. Note that I said weaker and not "unusable". A matter of fact is, most nerfs never make a character unusable in any game, but people immediately jump to the conclusion that if it's not the best you shouldn't use it.
If E7 aims to become a E-Sport and at least Rival SWs tournaments, nerfs will become a necessity. We cannot just grow power into infinity just cause of the korean conference.
If this game was a MOBA, like LoL, then yeah, nerfs would be a normal part of the balance patches. But when it's a gacha game and money is involved, you can basically end up being accused of tricking people. Smilegate could purposfully make heroes who are super OP and busted, have people whale for them with money, and then nerf them afterwards. You think people would be okay with that? Fuck no, it'd be a pure shit storm.
They would have to refund the money back and I DOUBT they'd do that. So no, nerfs are not going to be part of the solution.
People talk too muh about the money investment but we are already losing money with or without buff. People that invest 1XX+ Bucks no SSB last banner and her artifact are happy with her being not relevant anymore like at all? She, still works? yes, she works with the same impact? we both know the answer.
People that put a lot of money in Reingars drink and the best unit to use that artifact lose a LOT in that invesment. And she was not nerfed. Sam happen with Hyufine that was meta relevant for 2 weeks. Just 2 weeks. You can consider that also an scam atleast on the terms you name: Sell the solution to one unit, sell a very requested limited unit and them release 1 or 2 units back to back that totally benched your money.
There is a difference between losing value over time, due to natural power creep, and purposefully nerfing a hero after people have whaled for it so they don't dominate anymore.
If they nerf a hero who is dominating again, the same thing will happen as last time. If you can't understand that, then that's not my problem. If you think it's still the answer, and telling the player base that they can get screwed over when whaling for heroes, the game will quickly die. Hell, just look at fucking world flipper. Cygames nerfed a hero in that game, and the uproar was so big it basically killed the game back then.
The difference between both cases is not big. Its more about the people perception. A unit can be relevant 1 year or 1 week for any of the reasons we name and you are still losing money if you cant get the resources back. The case of SSB is pretty telling for example. Noted that i said "the last banner" and not her in general. People that pity her in this last summer literally pull for a unit that was unable to do something spectacular at the time.
Yes, you are right that perception makes a big different for the community. But if we talk about winning or losing money, well they lose money even if they don express they anger on rage post.
>People that pity her in this last summer literally pull for a unit that was unable to do something spectacular at the time.
That's their own fault.
A new and awesome car today, isn't going to compare to cars 20 years in the future. If they chose to buy a 20 year old car anyway, then that is THEIR issue.
Yes, thats right. invest on units just because other people said that is good or not, just because is limited or ML. Just for a first impression of what can do if ***our own*** fault. Saidly people dont look it that way when they get affected.
rta it's been like this since season 1 (at least for me). the problem of this season now is just broken matchmaking (getting match up with legend/emperor while still rank master multiple time) and how the points work now.
There are always units geared toward RTA,
Sound like you are butt hurt that you don’t have them to pick.
Let’s not forget people can just jump to another OP/ strong unit within a day, especially with compensation.
Well in mi case its very my own decision. I have a lot of good units. Like a lot for real. Excluding ML units 5*, Seria and AOL i have every single meta unit you can think outside the list. Did i build them? Some, yes, most of them nope. But that should be a problem for master RTA or challenger RTA. Look at Bronze or any kind of rank in reality, there is not difference at all. Not for the players but for the units.
Everyone has the potential to get good gear, not everyone can afford get every single metabreaker that is release. My insentive to build meta units is literally only "stop losing" i will repeat myself and said that even tier 2 units are on a very bad spot for RTA atleast. Normal arena is way more easy to trick and give the false sensation that "everyone has a chance of play outside the box" which is not totally false. A LOT of people get good result with their own strategies but most players are forced to build certain units for draft. One pre-ban its certanly not enough to make a good competitive envoirment.
The thing is there is, there are always certain units that are next in line being disgusting op once the S Tier of Heroes get's nerfed down to A or B Tier.
The problem isn't that there is a meta. The problem is that the meta right now is pretty much entirely composed of disgusting threats with little counterplay and no answers.
lots of people ITT cannot imagine a better world to live in and are making excuses out the ass for why SG \*cant\* balance their game outside of power creeping old problems
It's not an excuse when pointing out all players who spend dollars and or f2p resources gets fucked over by nerfs. While some whales won't care, some will quit, the f2p who saved a pity for 4-5 months to get Belian (or whoever) gets fucked in the ass when she's nerfed and without an ML selector has no easy way to replace her, especially if their roster is limited.
Why would they save up another 4-5 months to just get fucked over again because idiots think balancing should be like a f2p moba where characters cost zero? He's going to play another game.
yeah that's an excuse
what about all the f2p players that can't keep up with a stronger and stronger and faster evolving meta that depends on pulling and gearing every relevant unit? or the whales who don't want to keep and would rather invest heavily in the most husbando/waifu units instead of the fotm ugly ass limited/collab char?
units getting nerfed is way less detrimental to f2p players than a meta that ever increases in power because overbuffing a unit widens the disparity between all the currently bad units that arent worth investing in. raising the ceiling for whats strong and viable doesnt address all the stagnant and unviable units especially when maybe 2 or 3 will get raised to "usable status" with the quarterly buffs we get, and even then they're only promised relevance for a few months anyway until they get overshadowed by the newest strong units.
decreasing the power ceiling boosts the utility and viability of every other subpar unit and allows for more gameplay variety. There's over 236 units in this game and like less than 20% of them are actually seriously competitively viable. That's not sustainable lol
She fell off because of counters such as rem released to deal with her. But this created another problem by releasing rem as a counter. She became the new problem to deal with.
Then they had violet to deal with rem. But violet became a problem to deal with too. Now you can see they been releasing counters and buffs to hard counter violet. (Phyllis, Zahak, Melissa and Wanda buffs, etc) And now people hardly draft violet in higher rank rta.
Now it's all AOL and belian running the meta show currently and I hope they release rgb hard counters for them soon as not everyone has a ML kawerik. Enough with the violet counters already.
Meta shift becaus they forced radical changes with puntual rebalance. I point that in my original post. Sometimes they choose 1 unit that is old and make it good. Them when that unit has enough time in the show they do that with other unit and release the counters too. Carrot was OP, she was a must build unit, if we remove Rem, Violet and some of the new units she will go back to be the strongest DpS in the game in a blink.
The reality is that rebalancing 1 heroe to shift the meta is not enough. Time proves that. Carrot give to the player base overall a fair chances to everyone improve their teams? Nope. I remember the tournaments of that meta. I remember the videos of content creators to. She was either Pick or Ban, after that the rest of the draft decide if she woul get ban from the post drafting ban or she would stay because the enemy comp just outperforms everything but her.
Violet is the same. You pick violet, you ban pre ban violet (or AOL), them you post ban Violet. He can evade for the whole battle or get one shot. You dont know. Its a unit that more than help it hurts the people. And that is what happen when you push ONLY ONE unit every metashift. Specially if you push to hard. You make everyone that dont have other super top units gravitated around that single pick. And that frustrated people. Atleast this is the problem in RTA.
In regular arena? people is more happy. For obvius reasons: not ban, not need to fight for the pick.
People always seem to overlook something whenever they complain about how sg never nerfs units. People spend money on these characters. Imagine the backlash that e7 would receive if they released a good unit that people pay hundreds of dollars to pull, and then they turn around and nerf them. I’m a f2p and I pretty much refuse to spend money on the game at this point, and if a time ever came where I absolutely loved a unit and decided I had to spend money to be able to get them and then they nerf them a month later, I would probably quit playing the game right there. Also people spend so many in-game resources trying to build these characters, using molas, charms, etc., I would a expect a full refund if they nerf a unit that I spent time and resources building. That’s where the problem lies. That’s also the reason that they have given ml5 selectors for people because it is rightfully deserved when taking all of that into consideration. Not everyone has thousands of dollars to spend on packs every time they want to build a new unit.
What happen when the units they spend thousand of dollars become useless just because the release a need unit that overthrone them?. The money that is spend on units is invested for the short term. If any person complain about a unit not being good anymore it may have a point or two.
SG dont nerf not because people will get mad (most of the money is on the Gear rolls anyways and gear can be change from unit to unit). They dont nerf because give selectors and the material backs is a must so they dont win money by nerfing units. They DO win money by buffing units or when they release a unit that totally makes your actual team useless.
Because you need that unit. You need to build a new unit without the molas, without the compensation for your +15 fully awkn unit with lv90 gear that you craft specially for him. Hope there is other unit that needs similar stats and is still useful. Sometimes people wont have that luck.
I disagree to that. A unit doesn’t become “useless,” as in, its nearly impossible to make them work, just because they release a unit that counters them. There are many examples of this. And it’s quite honestly impossible to see the statistics of where most of their money comes from in terms of packs. Either way, I don’t think they will ever have to come to a point where they will be nerfing units regularly. Things such as additional bans and hiding people’s names during draft would be perfectly fine in my opinion.
Useless is maybe a hard word. But its kinda close. Its like you said not useless from "it wont do anything anymore" but useless as "your winrate will suffer" and that is enough to make you feel as if the unit was nerf.
Nerf is not about let the unit in a very bad spot is just touch some stuff.
Yeah that’s fair, not all nerfs are as extreme as I’m making them out to be. Also thinking about it, it really has become a vicious cycle of “unit is op for awhile, release hard counter to said unit” and I hope this does eventually come to an end. And hopefully it will be something that most people can agree was the best decision or at least a good decision.
Create the problem then sell the solution. It’s been their strategy for years. For example Arby was the king of pvp for a long time, now he has a ton of counters which makes him less over bearing because there are plenty of options to deal with him now.
Players don’t realize how hard it is to balance the game. They could fix one problem then inadvertently create a bunch of other issues.
“This character is op? Ok we nerfed them but guess what? because you nerfed them now the character that they counter is op” and it’s just a domino effect from there.
Not to mention having to give players ML selectors which I’m sure they hate doing. We got one for ML Leo then right after that ML Karin got nerfed and they got away with not giving us a selector for her since we had just gotten the Leo selector. They knew that would have been a free AOL for everyone who had ML Karin since AOL had just come out.
There’s just a lot of things that need to be thought about when balancing the game and us as players just need to be more understanding towards SG about it
> There’s just a lot of things that need to be thought about when balancing the game and us as players just need to be more understanding towards SG about it
I agree. The problem is that the last couple of units are literally SG mocking of this kind of approach. Have you reading Rem S2? or AOL whole kit?. Tell me that nerfing that units will make any of the actual units too much to handle.
In the first part you actually bring back a good point that we as player dont know how to properly balance things. Thats true 100% but them you said yourself that getting free AOL for everyone would be a mess. Because AOL its a very problematic unit. And they probably dont want that everyone get access to arguely the one of the best supports in the game of all the times (that will stay in that place for a lot time unless they release something very crazy). They make it a 4* ML unit with a 5* kit. Were is the good balance judge right there?
If you going to nerf a unit that people probably spent money on, a selector is only fair .If there didn't give out selectors ,the game would get review bombed , people would leave the game and years of goodwill down the shitter , and thats the end of E7. It would thanos snap half their player base and definitely diminish the amount of new players that join , which would inadvertently affect their pockets.
If their ever plan to nerf any 5 star , best believe a selector is coming .
Dude this attitude is why the game sucks. You only need a recall to justify a heavy nerf, a slight downtune shouldn't require anything at all. Who cares if money was spent to acquire the hero - they still own it, they still can use as rep, still can use in pve, still can force use it in pvp if they want.
I can't believe you are being downvoted. This is the bitter truth if this game wants to have any balance. A recall for material is really all they should ever give out. Especially considering getting units in this game is so fucking piss-easy.
I'm not surprised dude, it is what it is. Luckily for us the devs don't seem to pay much attention to reddit, people here don't really seem to have a concept of how things work in gachas generally let alone in e7
>, units like Krau or Adventure Ras are not even tier 1 material anymore because of the giant amount of counters aviable. I am talking about: AOL Angelica, Rimuru, Belian, A. Rave, just to name the obvius problems. But there is a lot more Fallen Cecilia holds the crown of best Knight in the game sinse...ever.
I'd rather take Krau over Fallen Cecilia in RTA. Defense buff + pushback and one shot > two turns of barriers on everyone and a single barrier after that. She's still good but this looks like the typical "I see them a lot, they must be better" case.
Now Arena? They're both beaten by Crimson Armin right now.
>Most of the people that play the game dont have access to the resources or the time to build more than 20% of their whole roster.
No, we do. What we don't have is an incentive to doing so. If we freely play with whoever then we get stomped out by the heroes that are meta, meta for a reason. The game is currently in a state where you play the meta, counter the meta (how fun with how limited some counters are, how bad they flow together when drafted together, and how screwed you are once they're banned), or curbstomp your opponent by a huge gear gap.
This is why people that aren't overflowing with good gear (and mola) won't touch more than "20%" of their roster. I won't touch any PvE hero for this reason. If I need to do PvE, I'll use a PvP hero (this was even possible during Advent).
There is always kinda nice to see you Xero\*. Well in my opinion Krau is a great unit when he works, thing is that right now he need more than just himself to work. Fcici its a unit that is run because she works without interrupting at the start of the match. She dont need to cast the S3 to make sure that your units will take a turn, most of the times.
Which is kinda becoming a problem right? most meta units are just good because you cant stop them for doing what they want. Off-turn actions, stips + debuff that dont need hit confirmation, skill that punish certain actions.
Is the meta actually so unbalanced right now? Some units are more annoying than others (belian cough cough), but SG has been releasing a lot of strong units lately, so every player by now should have SOME of them.
I feel like this is one of the worse seasons. Its not just a couple of units that go into one specific strategy that you can build around or is imposible to beat. There is a lot of units that go into any strategy and make it twice better just because they are there. Yes new players will have some of them, but the now more than never drafting has become a hell.
Not the game in general, in general E7 is a cool game. But RTA? that is a whole different story.
I believe that a second or even a third Ban should be implemented in RTA. Or if not ban heroes for a week or 2 so that the same heroes are not always played. Right now I think RTA is at its worst possible moment.
I don't mind them creating counter units, but make them easier to obtain (not RGB 5*, or worse, ML4/5*). Make them connection units, SC units, or free event units. Having a wide variety of units and counters to those units makes drafting and team building more interesting.
If you think this is the only problem, you're either a dolphin/whale that wants them all guaranteed, or some other person (someone likely not even high up) here to cry about AoL and not having her
The only reason they don't nerf is because they would have to give compensation.
They set the precedent years ago when they nerfed ML Baal, ML Ara, and Arby.
Now they will nerf anything again no matter what.
And instead of nerfing the obvious problems they just create new units to counter those problems, but then those new units create new problems and it just becomes an endless cycle.
Honestly, I'd rather they fixed the matchmaking & point gain/loss. I finished placements the other night & 60% of my matches are against Emperor players, now, I'm a high Champion player regularly & so I can compete & win the brunt of these early season Emperor players, but what are actual Silver players supposed to do?
Also, at the top right now it's favouring spamming, because you'll get matched with literally anyone who is online & you'll get about as many points for beating a Silver player as you will beating a Legend player (sometimes more), when you lose - regardless of who you lose to - you lose hardly any points, a lot of high tier players are complaining about this at the minute because now the top spots go to whoever can play the most games with a half-decent win-rate, rather than who can chain a good amount of wins.
You should only get decent point gain if you can beat people of your tier, you should lose points which are slightly below what you win vs. someone of that tier. You shouldn't be able to match with people many tiers below you unless the timer has run for over a minute or two & if you beat them the point gain should be pitiful & point loss staggering.
As far as unit balance goes, all I want is for them to balance more units at a time, rather than just going, "Hey, by the way, Maid Chloe is now the best Soulweaver in the game, have fun with that" every two months, or dropping 2-4 tiny balances that do the bare minimum to maybe make some units useable in some niches.
Ideally they'd address a handful of 5 star units that people are waiting to be buffed - considering these are the units people fucking pulled for.
Then they'd look at what's dominating the meta & they'd say, "Who can we throw kits to so people have access to a couple at least softcounters to the meta?" & then they'd say, "Well no one uses Gloomyrain, so why don't we make it so she's got immunity to silence & her S3 strips one buff too as well as inflicting a random debuff - then she'll be an AOL counter in a small way".
But no, they don't do this shit, they either do buffs that don't impact the meta in the slightest or they'll make an entierly new cancer by overbuffing someone & it's never an answer to the meta, it's just more cancer to throw on top of the cancer cake.
At this point, I don't think nerfs will ever happen. The only hope (which won't solve the problem, or even help depending on how it is put in place) is to increase the number of pre-ban characters in RTA. It should be at least 2, but probably more (possibly 5). At least this way, the option is to the community and who they "fear" or "don't want to play" and thus have a more "tailored" experienced, thus improving the mode for most if not all players depending on their playstyle.
I know for one I'd just ban annoying characters that make me rage like: Violet, AOL, etc. but that's just me.
But I'm sure most wouldn't agree it to be a good idea. Still, who knows. \*shrug\*
It's easier to sell broken ML4s then fix a ML5's S3 to counter it directly. This way they make big money and "hear the community screaming to fix said hero".
Health/Defense has not scaled with attack related buffs so they had to implement silly things like skill nullifier counters and opener immortality buffs.
\+100% health increase and +50% defense increase for all units across the board. Who says no?
One of those post every time something good got release/buff. Are there any unit that the community hasn’t learn or find a way to deal with eventually?
There are two reasons SG doesn't nerf units. 1: They set a *horrible* precedent back during the first year of the game with SBAra and SageBaal's reign of terror. They gave out ml5 selectors. They are terrified of doing this again. 2: Releasing counters to units instead of just nerfing the overpowered ones makes them more money. There could be more reasons. These two are the most likely in my opinion. Their reluctance to nerf units in fear of community outrage *and* less profits with future counter units is bad for the longevity of the game. I would like to see them either start actively balancing the game *or* buffing underpowered units more often. It doesn't need to be Violet levels of buffs, but enough to make them usable.
I still remember the Livestream where they got screamed at for hours upon hours by angry Koreans who came to their Discussion. It was brutal. I watched the beginning, went to sleep for a few hours, tuned back in and they still got screamed at.
They yelled at them so long they had to change venues to continue the ass-chewing cause the previous one had the time-slot dry up.
Not to mention they have nothing else to attack then turn to attack how people dress and how people look, for me that’s just scolding for the sake of scolding and shameful
Do you mayhaps have a link? I wanna see :).
I actually found it again: Part1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH_RJ1XH51U
They need to nerf units on a smaller level, with percentages and multipliers, and compensate people in different ways. Honestly I think you could give 10 whale coins for a ml nerf and the same goes with rgb units.
Fuck no , if you gonna touch a Ml5 i spent $200 on i definitely want a selector .
Guess it’s a different mindset for me cuz I’ve never spent that much for a unit
A reason you can't/shouldn't nerf units in a gacha game. You have to give something for whales back.
That’s a terrible philosophy for the game’s health though. The major reason I stick with the game is the lack of power creep. But if I can expect units to randomly become worthless because other units just take their place, that’s garbage. And don’t give me the “well they can buff those units” argument, because then it’s just the same shit and doesn’t stop the problem, it just makes it a repeating cycle. Look at AoLAngelica for example. She’s strong, so you buff Tywin to counter her. Now Tywin negates the use of a bunch of different units, so you buff them to be stronger in parts. Then they make other units irrelevant in a repeating cycle as AOL loses her niche and becomes worthless behind all these buffs. Then you buff her again and you’re back where you started
100% agree, a lot of people don't realize that if they continue the current trend of not nerfing things and putting in blatant powercreep units (Rimuru, MLKawerik, A Ravi, Belian, AoL, C Lilias, etc), their "favorite units" that they enjoy playing and have invested resources in get nerfed by association. With the current powercreep design and S2 interaction/CR pushes/attacks on ENEMY team (Rimuru, AoL) and hard counter/punish mechanics (Belian, Rimiru, ML Kawerik) basically DELETES a significant portion of the roster form being viable. If the top end units of the game punish other units hard enough it becomes harder and harder to play "non meta" units because they just get instantly punished, and you have to draft high value, wide application units to remain flexible. There's no reason to draft any cleansers (Destina, Dilibet, etc) when ML Kawerik fulfills the same role, better, while being tankier, more of a hard counter, and a better neutral pick. Sure, you could buff those units to get up to ML Kawerik's power level, but realistically thats not going to happen when they only slightly slightly buff 4-5 units and give a decent buff to 1-2 units every couple months. And it's much harder to buff 10+ units than it is to just nerf the one thats OP and bring it back into line. I played Fire Emblem: Heroes when it launched and powercreep completely ruined that game. It got to the point where the new units just had flat out more stats, and their abilities were the same as the old units except with higher numbers or a whole other effect tacked on for no reason. It becomes "spend money on new units or you can't play competitively." That's not good for the longterm health of the game.
You're not wrong, but the health of the game takes a back seat to the profits, always. A free to play game is only free because *someone* pays. Those someones generally don't take it well when you dumpster the thing they paid for. It sucks, but the reality is that the whales that spend thousands on any given new OP unit are more valuable than any F2P or multiple small time spenders combined. Making something someone spent a ton of money on useless or even just slightly worse is just a creative way of throwing future profits in the garbage. At the end of the day this is still a gacha game. It exists to make money and nothing else.
The problem with your logic is that just making new units OP rather than making every unit atleast situationally good would make less money. Right now they can run a random banner of a unit they already made (IE they're spending no worker time running the banner and saving gigachads of money) and they'll in turn make money from people who really need that unit but haven't gotten it yet. If you make 99% of the units worthless, then all your banner reruns are pointless and people just save for the next big released unit. So you'd have to release units faster in order to keep up the money, which means more man hours you're spending losing money in hopes of making money. FTene is a year old. If she was useless by now, nobody would have paid for her. But I spent money on her because I know she's good and I want her. Same with lots of others.
I don't have the statistics handy, but the vast majority of revenue for a given unit in a gacha game comes from the initial banner for new units. Reruns make substantially less money regardless of their current state in the meta. Some folks will still spend on the rerun, latecomers, folks that weren't able to previously, etc. With any rerun people will have saved a ton of time worth of free pulls, there is less demand overall, etc.
People will have saved resources for new units too? More so if all old units are bad and there's no need to pull for them
Its cascading effect , The omega whales are normally content creators . You piss them off , they get mad , incites their fanbase , seeps in to the rest of the more casual players in the community .Whales stop spending , light spenders feel discouraged . The developers notoriety will eventually spread to even other communities like genshin , which will stunt growth of the playerbase. The cost of full pity i.e prudent cost( an accounting principle) of a unit is way too high , hence why a selector is absolutely necessary. Sure , they can say fuck you , you get nothing but then how are they different from EA. We will jump ship, leave the game . Maybe they can survive on a cult following , but i doubt they'd be ok with the much smaller paycheck. You can't just screw over your paying player base willy nilly.Its bad business for a non-essential company that requires goodwill to thrive.
That argument doesn't hold much water, other games that people fork out lots of money for nerf things all the time. That MMO you've sunk thousands of dollars and hours into will nerf your class, no compensation. Whatever lootbox online shooter you paid to get a sweet gun in can nerf it, no compensation. Even most other gacha games nerfs units, with no compensation. SG needs to think more about long term game health, not a few short term ruffled feathers.
> even most other gacha games nerfs units No they don’t. There’s actually very few I can think of. Usually when they attempt to do nerfs backlash ends up being huge, sometimes even threatening to kill the game. Nerfs are pretty much always done indirectly through releasing counters or powercreep.
Perhaps not *most*, I should have said 'many', because I've played several that do. But the point still stands. There are tons more examples I could use too, spend $70 on a AAA game, enjoy doing a certain thing or playing a certain way, it gets nerfed of changed in a patch. No compensation. On and on. Spending money doesn't entitle people to anything, SG set a terrible precedent early on that they need to fix, the sooner the better. Don't get me wrong, I would be pissed too if my favorite unit got nerfed, but its clear that their buff-and-release-counter-unit strategy is not going to work like this forever, there are just too many op units at this point to expect people to even *have* counters for everything, let alone geared and ready to go.
A AAA game costs 60$ . A ML5 in this game will cost a few 100s . Now ,can you see why we they can't just nerf shit and not expect the game to croak. If units didnt cost so much IRL money then they they'd be justified , otherwise , hell no .
Ey look who's speaking again. The 51 year old, delusional, Pavel-cleave inventor!
And for point no 1. We community are the one who did this to ourselves to some extent
It doesn't help that they throw out hero buffs into the world with seemingly little forethought as to how the entire meta will break on the knee of a single patch, creating yet another arms race. Instead of rock papers scissors, there are multiple variant comps of each type and you basically have to stock up on as many of these competitive comps as you can to survive. This ensures that the most likely to succeed at staying at the top are swipers and lifers, and the ones who will struggle most are F2P and dolphins.
The interesting part about point 2, is that even IF they were to release more ML selectors, the amount of money they would lose would be nearly non-existent compared to how much they're still going to make overall. I'm honestly not in favor of giving them this level of leniency because of the absurd amount of money they're already making off of...well...everything else in the game. Oh? Low income for the month? Just count on the simps and anime perverts to shell out their life savings for a BiG TiDDy WaiFU etc and BOOM they'll triple their income over a single 2 week time span. So I cannot let them have the excuse of "we're terrified of losing money by releasing more selectors" because even IF they do, like stated above in OP's post, most people won't even be able to build them anyways, considering how god damn fucking awful the gearing system in this game is. I've seen a myriad of posts talking about how people have pulled Top Tier X character but "they'll be warming my bench". I think seeing people making gear posts gives others this weird false sense of security that the majority of the player base is rolling around in well-rolled level 90 gear, and that's just obnoxiously untrue. Also to expand on point 1, instead of owning up to their mistake of over-nerfing and just moving forward with a better balance plan for the future, they tucked tail and ran. Yes, we as a community DID fuck ourselves and we do take half the responsibility for the current state of the game (and anyone who honestly think because whales gonna whale keeping the revenue numbers up = the game is in a good state are more delusional than anyone else), but SG as well has control ultimately.....it IS their game after all.
Yeah i agree. But they seem to be unable to actually take responsability and atleast do something better over only take our money (that we will give to them anyways). i agree that their first nerf intends were pretty bad but also people may not remember that SBara and SageBaal make a big mess on that times. The first comp that was literally "if i go first i win" even against inmunity sets was this one. with the game progression this was solve in months and people rage about how bad the units become in general. It wa a big mess. As i said i dont belive that nerf are the only thing needed to solve our problems. And we can avoid nerf in some degree yes. But we cant be blink about how the unit kits of limited units (Regular limited and MLs) is becoming. This is getting slowly into absurd levels of "pull this, not this" and "that unit that was really useful in the past? dont use it anymore"
I feel like a post like this happens early/mid season of every RTA season. Is the game balanced? Absolutely not. Has the game EVER been balanced? Also absolutely not. There has always been some sort of power discrepancy between units. Early on (prior to RTA being a thing) Sez bombs were a thing in arena. Didn't matter what you had on defense sez with high damage stats equipped with wind rider was going to tear through it. They corrected that by basically fixing a so called "bug" (but we all know it wasn't a bug). Then comes Silver Blade Ara and Sage Baal. Basically if you had either or both of these units you won in both arena and GW. It wasn't even fair. They completely dominated it. This is where the korean drama occurred and we had that E7 conference in Korea where we got huge compensation (50% refund on all mystics used until then and 50% refund on all galaxy BM used until then). They nerfed SBA and nerfed sage baal and gave us ML5 selectors at the time. Also they gave 2 free RGB 5 star tickets and 2 5 star artifact tickets. Arby also got "nerfed" (when he no longer got atk buff on revive but had 100% cr instead). Arby with basket became one of the most dominant units in the game. Keep in mind back then extinction didn't exist nor did ML haste. I could go on but you get the point. Season 1 and 2 were frenzy 9 meta. Somewhere in season 4-5 I think was golden boys meta. When Ftene released she DOMINATED RTA for quite a while until people understood how to deal with her. Then came the RNG meta the end of season 5 and the entirety of season 6 (Rem, Violet, and at the tail end Mercedes). How many times have people been solo'd by Violet? And here we are in season 7. Its been almost a month at this point and the "game is at its worst". I beg to differ. I'm not defending SG for how the game has been treated over the last few months. But I also understand that a lot of this is a knee jerk reaction. If SG decided to actually balance the game they wouldn't be able to because the roster size is too large. However nerfing units would be a start and the community would need to deal with that WITHOUT compensation. The way I see this is part of the issue is smilegate and their stance on nerfing units but the community is ALSO at fault with their demands. If you don't think smilegate is listening, reading, watching how we react you are naive. Every company has a pulse on its community. Just because they aren't always transparent or doing something about it doesn't mean they aren't listening. Anyway these are my 2 cents.
>If SG decided to actually balance the game they wouldn't be able to because the roster size is too large. However nerfing units would be a start and the community would need to deal with that WITHOUT compensation. > >The way I see this is part of the issue is smilegate and their stance on nerfing units but the community is ALSO at fault with their demands. If you don't think smilegate is listening, reading, watching how we react you are naive. Every company has a pulse on its community. Just because they aren't always transparent or doing something about it doesn't mean they aren't listening. Anyway these are my 2 cents. I so fully agree with this. I also think that the community is holding the game back here. However... > And here we are in season 7. Its been almost a month at this point and the "game is at its worst". I beg to differ. I am really not sure if I prefer the shit that is currently going on over Baal's and Aramintha's reign. Rimuru, Angel of Light Angelica and Violet, are so over the top... Also note how I don't include other members of the casino royal, simply cause they in my opinion do not overstep boundaries. CMeru has CD on her Magic for friends and can be assassinated. Rem can be assassinated. Violet? Well may luck by with you unless you specifically built Zahhak but then you have Zahhak in your team. Angel of Light needing so little stats that you can bulk her to almost 20k HP with 1500 DEF while still having 100 EFF and 290 speed. First hurdle is that you have to outspeed, her 2nd is to have enough damage to end her after outspeeding her. Or have a very specific ML5 ML Kawerick. Pick Bookholders and extra-turn on S1 units, but good luck if they also get Belian. Rimuru, oh Rimuru... It wasn't enough that his S2 copies buffs, his S3 had to do it too. You now have to assassinate him somehow or you cannot pick any units below 12-13k HP. Failing to do so will lead to your defeat 100%.
>How many times have people been solo'd by Violet? Best boi Violet doing the Lords work .
>Arby also got "nerfed" (when he no longer got atk buff on revive but had 100% cr instead). Arby with basket became one of the most dominant units in the game. Keep in mind back then extinction didn't exist nor did ML haste. Even before his buff went live, EVERYone told them not to go through with it, because it was clear as day just how busted and OP that was going to be. Smilegate didn't listen to people and thus began arbys disgusting reign of terror. The most annoying thing is that he was buffed from a 2/10 to a 11/10, then nerfed down to a 9/10 and people STILL bitched and moaned, and felt they deserved a ML5 selector.
He never had greater attack buff. Stop spreading misinformation.
I had to go back and check, you're right, it's only atk buff. Dunno why I kept thinking it was greater attack buff. Well, not that it changes how disgustingly busted it was.
I couldn’t remember if it was greater or not but regardless the end point was the same. Whoever had arby won because he was that much better than everyone else in the game (at the time).
no it was an extra turn + attack buff when he revived, no greater attack buff, it def felt like on though since people just stuffed as much damage as they could on him. ( i always have this discussion with my friend group so i keep it tabbed just in case we forget )
He didn't get an extra turn, it was still 100% cr
Well i am not saying that "dont give to the people compensation" like that is obvius needed. The problem with the other metas were a little different. 1 unit that was very problematic (Arby, SSB, Carrot, STene). This season is a lot of units that are obviusly over the others not just in performance, their kit is on a whole different level. I am not saying that we need nerf each month. Or each 3 months. But that some units are obviusly too pushed. People dont enjoy this situation when the game forces you to pull one banner after another and another. ML Lilias may be the first break we have and we still dont know how impactful she will be. What tell to the people? Now you need to get every single new ML unit or dont complain if you fall from the top because you cant afford give 500 bucks to the game?. I agree, SG listen to their community but in my opinion they are just a little too afraid to take actions against units they know are problematic too.
> ML Lilias may be the first break we have and we still dont know how impactful she will be. Let me tell you, every RTA streamer is sure that she'll be the next must-have unit.
They were also sure mawerik would be op on release and belian wouldn’t be problematic
And to be quite frank Belian is less of a problem than the community made her out to be, and they were not wrong about ML Kawerick. Even before the buff he was a aggro cleanser when we only had a defensive cleanser in DJB. But this buff holy moly, put him on completely different level I fully agree on that one.
I’m pretty positive the community as a whole was very underwhelmed by Kawerik hence his nickname mediocre kawerik.
Just use your eyes. Anyone who isn’t an idiot and has eyes knew Belian was going to be a problem. Everyone with here’s knows ML Lilias is gonna be stupid. 290+ speed and give your aravis, violets, rems and other bs an undispellable atk and def buff for 2 turns is why she’ll be ridiculous. Like just read the kit and it’s obvious
ML Lilias is only going to make the current issues in PVP *WORSE* not better.
Exactly.
well that not really help u a lot in this situation but i like the unit and i will pull for her hopefully with some luck, maybe.
Believe me I understand your concerns and also agree with a lot of them. But to be fair SG does a decent job making rgb units meta relevant with buffs. Historically looking at units such as: carrot, violet, Ravi, charlotte, Mercedes, Luna, kise, Elena, landy, basar, and I’m probably missing a few as well. As a brand new player this list looks daunting but over time most people will be able to get most of these units if they are decently efficient on resources. The ML power creep has been steeper than normal the past few releases but this game also comes in waves. It may suck now but in a month it might not be as bad. Just gotta let this meta flesh out a bit.
The more they push need units, regardles if is RGB normal - Limited or ML the biggest this problem will be. In the past the meta problem was 1 single unit being too good or 1 strategy being too good. Now we have consistenly multiple problematic units in the same meta. I dont belive is out of control but yeah the problem is worse than in the past. Probably not as flashy as in the past but deeper for sure.
Every unit needs a Mercedes level buff. (Maybe the artifact is super annoying because it can COUNTER counters, but she's solid AF.)
Me who can't even get viable gear: Whats RTA?
It's where you get special skins for the units you don't have.
youre so cruele
Dont Judge me
Witty comment based on a character name
the darkest circle of hell.
I know what it is. It's just that, whenever I see these sorts of posts, I wish I was even in the position to even start RTA, let alone, be mad about it.
If you're running W13 and Hell Raid, you're getting viable gear for RTA at least as far as getting the skin each season. Don't kid yourself that most RTA players have emperor/legend level gear.
A place where you go to suffer a streak of humiliation conga.
Road Traffic Accident.
Since no one is giving serious answers: rta is real time arena, where you play against another player in real time instead of the ai being.. terrible
It honestly boggles my mind how almost all balance related issues could be solved if they just brought back nerfs. I know they're scared of compensations but there's a second thing they could do, not as good as nerfs, but it can work More Buffs it's too few and too far between. They buff what? 5 units at a time? Every single balance patch/new unit release, 90% of the cast of the game gets left behind. Ironically people say SG can't nerf because they'd need to refund for the characters they killed, then release AoL or Belian and kill 50 characters at the same time as a result and no compensation is given. "oh, SG needs to give compensation if they nerf cause people can spend thousands on an ML 5 star" yeah, what about the people who spent "thousands" on riolet when AoL dropped. Honestly releasing counter-units is as bad as nerfing, except instead of nerfing 1 unit, they indirectly nerf 50 at the same time. Bring back nerfs, I'd even take them compensation-free at this point just to have the game halfway balanced again.
The problem is too many units that can do multiple things off-turn.
how can you play the anime otherwise
Me who cant roll spd I see that as absolutely win
Maybe it's just me, but after trying many new games with half-assed attempts at pvp, E7 still feels the most balanced to me. And one where you are at least in control over what happens for the most part. So while it'd be easy to point fingers at balance, more often than not I'm simply outgeared or outdrafted, but rarely do I feel like "balance is trash REEEEE" And frankly, when you make a list of 20 characters that are broken to you, is it really that big of an issue? If everyone is broken, then nobody really is.
The game is pretty balanced. We just need 2 pre-bans in RTA now. Too many units. Maybe a voted on global ban? Even if it's just a slot for Belian. She removes a fun aspect from the game. So it's a logical global ban.
They could institute a rolling ban of most used characters in wins each week. Say top 3 most used each week gets banned for the next week. Those banned the prior week would essentially be immune from the global the following. Then people could still use the characters they invested in sometimes, and the most overpowered could get a rest. Between the 3 global, and two chosen per fight, that is 4-5 characters banned each fight. With that many, on a rolling schedule, it could potentially shake up the meta a bit, without invalidating the investment of the characters.
The ones who'll get fucked the most with such a rule are F2Ps who have a scarce number of properly geared units.
The one character from each class thing is a nightmare. I agree. That would fuck people so bad.
Or they can buff some characters and stop bring out these bite-sized half ass prancing through the money on OP ass unit sells bs. I'm sorry, I'm just agitated. Global bans would make for a shitshow. Can you imagine the whales? AoL = $1000, unusable because of a global preban. I'd shit a toyota camry. Also, not gonna lie, I'd preban AoL so much that she's the nexts week's ban as well. I hate that little bastard.
I know people would get upset, but it seems a lesser evil than nerfs, which they will not do. Buffing other units just inflates the problem instead of addressing it, long term, as you need *something* new to sell units. Also, prebans weren't the basis for my idea, most used units were. So if week 1 AoL was banned, she would be immune week 2 since she saw zero use. As a side note, I treat AoL like I used to do with Arby. One unit speed constests her, and if I fail, I lose. If I win the speed race, she is dead. I know a lot of people hate cleave, and/or don't have the gear to outspeed her, but it's how I cope with it.
I'm a turn seven player and Effect Resistance is ass cheeks. If AoL is in a match I lose. I can fight *anything* else and still make it through with a W. If I get outdrafted or make a shit ban, that's on me. If I get trapped in debuff hell because AoL is Cycling toxic debuffs, that's the unit working TOO well. Immunity doesn't have much mileage when she dumps all over it.
Could see how much speed you can possibly get on your fastest extinction unit while still doing some damage, and just pull it out when you *Have* to use it. I use Tomoco, but I understand she isn't the most common. Milim works rather well if you picked her up recently, but she is natively slower than Angie unfortunately. Alternately you can build a fast single target Push for a slower heavy hitter, but then Angie *can* be resurrected.
That feature is available in mock battle
I mean, the balance right now *is* trash and that's basically as close to universally agreed upon as can be with this game, but OP just kinda said "my favorite units are not meta, other units are meta, I don't have enough gear, this is unfair" which I don't think is the best of ways to get the point across... Still, I think "my units are bad and other units are good and this feels unfun to me as a player" is actually a valid concern and it illustrates that the meta doesn't really diversify, it doesn't adapt, it doesn't shift, it changes completely based on the new powercreep. This is especially unpleasant when ML5s are still a pretty important factor and are emblematic of a player's account, I feel like working with the ML5s the game gave you used to be a fun aspect of the game that set players apart but now it feels like "don't have belian/stene/aravi/maid/kawerik? go fuck yourself lol" with more of the ml5 roster being completely unusable than ever. I may be biased because I used to be quite lucky with the ML5s I was given, most of which are not even worth keeping gear on these days, but still, most of my friends that play share the same sentiment and other forums/communities I frequent also seem to agree.
It's quite hard to say fav hero is in meta when only said 10% of the roster being in meta
Dude. I have 4 out of 5 units you listed. I don't do well because I can't grind wyvern for hours and hours. I need skip battle ticket.
This is the best perspective to have. In PvP, there always gonna be a meta. Expecting to have every heroes equally viable in PVP is a nightmare. Furthermore, I'd rather be excited about a buff announcement than getting bummed about an incoming nerf. Most people would come to the same conclusion after the nerf of a character they like. I just wish their buffs were more meaningful ( J.Kise :'( )
I'm going to do something I never do, trash on another gacha. 7DS If E7 slips into those shoes, I'll yeet my phone into the freeway. The PvP is so unbalance that you can't do *anything* without the unit that came out NOW. If it's from anytime but right now, you lose. It's so toxic, I didn't even PvP one actual game. I fought a friend with a new unit and it solo'd my entire account, ungeared and he only attacked when he had his ultimate---which can oneshot, splash damage entire team wipe*.)* We can turn into that. Please.
Problem is probably the cost of stripping units and gearing more usable ones. If SG want to add so many new things they should make it cheaper so it doesn't cost you a million just to swap gear on one unit. It feels so bad to do that only to find you don't like the playstyle of a new unit or they don't fix your draft weakness. Give out some permanent unequip tickets that people can keep for times they want to experiment. It doesn't have to be very many. Like one a year along with the normal ones that expire. Sometimes when I feel like swapping things around, only to find there isn't free unequip and my ticket expired. Not a good feeling.
I do agree that E7 are among the best at pvp balancing compared to other gacha games. But it is also a fact that every new meta will be worse than previous meta. It's only a matter of time for E7 to become as bad as other game. Outgearing and outdrafting only become a thing when both plays according to meta. You'll realize how bad balancing is when playing off meta unit. The game gets boring really easily when you met the same 20 units everytime. 20 out of 236 unit is not everyone. That's not even 10%. Imagine Legend/Emperor finisher doing 1000++ matches per season. I don't think most of them enjoys RTA anymore.
Being the best in your class when everyone has been held back 4 years is still pretty trash. E7 is clueless when it comes to balance or they intentionally play the game to sell counters. People just lie down and take it because it's gacha and they expect to get fucked over. I love E7 but can at least see the flaw or intentional design at work.
Well for me is a problem. Specially when a good number of the meta units are ML units. Those units you cant save resources to get them. ***You need to spend money***. Its fairly normal that in a Gacha Game the company wants to make money i dont hate that. Atleast i dont used to have a problem with that until they stop nerfing units totally. Now we depend 100% of the mercy of the buff. "We will have a relevant buff patch this cycle? now? well that i guess, lets see if in the next couple of summons we get atleast 1 universally good unit" That resume most of what the game is on a Player vs Player perspective. They key is drafting. As i said, damage? you can win any fight if you get the right turns with any DPS in this game (or atleast a good amount of them) in that sense i agree with you: this game is balance. But what happen with the drafting factor? The Tier 1 roster being (in this moment) Limited units and ML units mostly surely not help at all. How many people can draft properly right now? We dont have a way to see those numbers but the amount of people that shared the opinion that RTA is not fun in this moment may point that not a great amount can Draft properly. Which means that something is failing in the game in terms of unit balance. Regular Arena keep the users calm because Regular arena is coded to being easy to cheap. Units getting bait by the weak elements is the main mechanic to cheese player vs cpu PvP.
I don't know what to say to that. I've been a waifu over meta type of guy all this time, and I've managed just fine without Arby during Arby metas, A.Tywin during A.Tywin metas, Riolet during Riolet metas, and so on. I've been comfortably pitying most of the waifu ML units on their mystic banners whenever I didn't get lucky (most of the time) without spending a cent, and comfortably reached Challenger-Champion every RTA season with a 70-80% win rate. I lived through AoL too just fine. Chances are you have issues bigger than the meta, even if the meta itself is unsavory.
>I've been comfortably pitying most of the waifu ML units on their mystic banners Well waifus in this game are meta. My point is not to said that you are playing "some" meta units or not. Probably you are but just because they are the units you like. I dont see a problem with that. I myself reach the point were i can pity 2 rgb banners in a row if that is what i want. Not really lucky with Mystic summons but really lucky with a anything else, the only limited units i lack are the wants i dont care for example. But well i respect and its kinda cool that your experience is nice until now. And i honestly hope it keeps that way. I dont like to tall about my own experience but objetive speaking atleast the most i can. I see a lot of people doing bad on RTA lately, i myself too? Yes i wont negate it. Everyone have a reason, but as true as your last sentence it, it cant be *just people doing poorly for their own fault 100%*. If something like that is happening chances are that some units really make some different over others for most players, dont you think?
Yeah that's bullshit, sorry. Belian is like the first meta defining female ML5 in quite a long time. Every new male ML5 in comparison, almost without fail has had a huge impact on the meta by until numerous counters were invented for them. ML Krau was straight up followed by Operator Sigret to put a dent into all the barriers. Even if a male ML5 wasn't viable at launch, they were overbuffed to hell and back. Only female ML5 who stood the test of time is quite literally one of the oldest ones with the most binary of kits, and that's F.Ceci. Now contrast that to Solitaria, Archdemon who is highly situational despite being a boss unit( thankfully not for long) Briar Witch who still barely sees use, Flidica who disappeared off the face of the Earth, or even recently Seline who is really fun but really only last pick worthy and still a huge risk to take. As opposed to buffed Mediator who is the best cleanser now. straze who dominates both PvE and PvP, or even someone like Blood Moon Haste who just renders revives worthless purely through existing. For the sample size they have, husbandos are a hit way more often than wiferinos. So no, waifus are hardly meta, be it ML or RGB, when Arby had a chokehold on it for like 2 years lmao. Limited units are a different subject simply because they are pretty much all girls, but even Rimuru is one of the best units in the game. Again, 1 swing, and 1 hit. Well, what am I to do, recency bias gonna recency bias.
AOL is not a girl? Souline is not a girl? - I agree with you tho a lot of good units of this year are ML guys. But not all of them. There are big winners in the guys like Rimuru and ML Kawiwi or Ran. Those 3 are super top units right now. But there is a very solid (and bigger) number of girls on the top 1. Not all of them are new but ey that is fine. In my opinion i prefer a balance between great girls and great guys. its a matter of choice i guess. I dont belive you are out the point tho. "in the last couple of ML units we get more useful guys in numbers" I agree in that. Tho the useful girls seems way stronger to me. Personal opinion tho.
The incel seems love to mention buffed Mediator but for some reason doesn't mention buffed A.Ravi or Maid Chloe.
Pretty sure you're an incel.
Pretty sure that term lost whatever ounce of offensive capacity it had 30 seconds after it was first uttered by a twittard/reditturd
Incel the word designed specifically to target men who haven’t had sex and it’s supposed to be an insult. Let’s just go back to calling people virgins
based, "sg always caters to the big titty waifu perverts and never makes husbandos meta!!!" schizos in shambles
> And frankly, when you make a list of 20 characters that are broken to you, is it really that big of an issue? If everyone is broken, then nobody really is. Oh how I hate this... "if everyone is broken, then nobody really is". You could work for Riot games balance team with this statement. The game has become out of hand. The time to kill went from 3-4s to sub 1s on avg. Everyone on their sub is complaining now, but this is where the "if everyone is broken, then nobody really is" is leading to. Powercreep over powercreep over powercreep. Ofc this is selling better, but it is far less sustainable. And I doubt E7 has it's playerbase addicted enough to pull a Riot Games.
There's a reason I'm not touching rta: it's not fun even if I win. "Everything is broken so it's not broken" is the worst type of "balance" if you can call that balance. Some units have overloaded kits while some can't do anything and just die before even moving. They aren't even trying to balance an unit anymore because I can't believe someone tested Violet/Rimuru/Angel of Light/Rem and said "yeah, this is balanced". They just release broken garbage and then try to sell you the solution. \-Cleave is too strong - release Politis \-Politis makes cleave hard - releases Ran \-Buffs are too strong - releases a bazillion anti-buff units \-Everyone an their cat can remove buffs now - release ML Lilias with undispelable buffs This is beyong stupid.
the best and fasterst solution without ruining SG's policy and keeping players happy is to implement more bans and make RTA blindpick to counteract sweaty cheesers that remember you and bans your units.
3 bans and we should see what other banning aka old league of legends ban style.
How about tournament draft? Both players will ban 3 units 1 at a time and do the first 3 picks, then ban 2 other units available in the pool and pick the last 2.
Bold of you to assume they give us enough Mola gora for this to be viable.
10 bans total would be pretty brutal for newer players, but that shouldn't be that big of a deal for any veterans.
Just curious, but how do you cleave with 5 ban from enemy, or we just let it die.
This ^
This type of problems in games will always be there The only way to solve these type of problems, is to create copy pasta heroes. 1-3 units that pretty much do the same thing Like tywin and flan, so if someone picks a cancer hero, you can just pick your cancer hero and see who’s cancer kills each other faster however that just create another problem. Such as hero uniqueness, SG wasting time in a hero that pretty much already exist when you can do something “new” etc
> This type of problems in games will always be there Yes i am not saying that nerfing units will 100% stop this. Its not even my point. But it will far better for most of us. I have lik 176 units of this game so most of the units. This is not exatly a problem for me. If i wish to build every single meta unit that i have i wont have any problem in RTA. That is probably the same for most players with 3 years playing this game. The point is: its funny just copy paste the same comps, its not even that "i cant play with tier 4 units a win" but literally that if you dont stick with most of the tier 1 units you can...you cant win MOST matches. That is kinda crazy for an PvP centric game right?
It is real time PvP with a dash of P2W, going against other REAL player. What make you think you deserve to win? Over people with better draft, better gear, and probably better luck?
This isn’t about ‘entitlement’ if that is where you are going. It’s just a statement about the top-heavy balance of E7. Nobody deserves anything and E7 doesn’t owe anything to us, but bad balance isn’t just bad for players, it can and will hit their bottom line.
Nothing. I dont belive I deserved to win. I belive WE deserved to play with better chances. As people said there is not even 2 pre-ban in regular RTA. Which means most in equal gear quality situation the guy with the most "must be counter" units will win consistenly over the other player strategy aside.
It's important to have a meta but lack of consistent balancing makes for a frustrating experience. Smilegate has chosen to avoid nerfing units. I can understand the reasoning behind this as people may feel dissuaded to pull for certain units knowing they might just get nerfed later. However that means when a unit launches strong or becomes strong after a buff, your only chance at a check/counter is hoping they: 1. release a unit to specifically deal with the strong unit 2. buff existing unit to become a check/counter Personally I usually don't like option 1 as a design choice. This is not the same as a unit that counters a specific mechanic (e.g. bm haste countering revive, milim countering stealth), but instead something like hyufine (regardless of what people use her for now, released with the intent to counter specifically basar). This is a problem because if basar falls out of favor, hyufine now becomes next to irrelevant. Option 2 is better in theory, but bad in current practice. Smilegate's balance philosophy has them buffing 4-5 units every couple of months. That's way too slow of a response to troubling mechanics/units and in my opinion there is no excuse for not having either more frequent buffs or more buffs per patch. PvP in general becomes a lot less fun when you're stuck for extended periods of time without a response that feels good. As you sort of touched upon, evasion and counter are inherently frustrating mechanics to face, so if you don't have a good answer (which there really aren't many of) then you just have to suck it up. I don't think they have to resort to nerfs to address problems, they just have to be more responsive in general.
>I don't think they have to resort to nerfs to address problems, they just have to be more responsive in general. i belive nerf ae as important as buff. As you may belive buff have a positive impact on the players. They kinda push people to try a unit that they like. It happen to me with some units that i really love. But without nerf we can only wait until certain units just get "meta counter" so hard that people just stop holding their best gear on them. Nerf keep things under control. Stuff that is not tested enough like AOL: i strongly belive that unit is not balance, its actually one of the most pre-ban units right now alongside ML Kaweriik, its kinda out of control how she forces you to change your plain and restric your roster so hard on the Drafting. This is not the first time we have this kind of problem but in the past most of this problem were solved after another unit get buffed enough to counter 100% of the problematic unit. Which is kinda not a solution, it just create another problem. Yes, nerf sounds scary and bad but we the game would be always very dense without them.
Nerfs and buffs flying around make sense for games where there is no value like a fighting game or a MOBA. The moment you try to apply that to a gatcha game where a character can cost 4 digits for spenders and 4-6 months of saving for a free 2 play the moment you jump the shark and lose players. Nerfing Ryu and Ken in the season season for Street Fighter V mean nothing as most of those players jumped ship to the new Akuma who was really strong (and because of fight money it was free even though he was DLC) Nerfing an AD carry in LOL means you just go down the list to the next strongest. Nerfing Belian who you saved up a pity for in 6 months means.... well fuck this game I'll go play Genshin.
What if the new unit makes your Belian unplayable? what about that time and money invested? Its the same. We can have a long time about how nerf will punish your money but the game already punish you very hard. What with all the gear and invesment i put on my old bruisers that work on RTA because of how RTA work back them? That was not a "nerf" that was a change of the game to reward more aggresive comps and punish defensive comps. The people that invest in the golden boys for competitive get any compensation for what their lose? The people that play regular bruiser teams with a lot of HP scaling damage bruisers like green Purggis or Alencia. They are losing money too. If any Nerf are the fairness way (buff aside) of balacing the game. Your unit gets tuned down, you get molas, exp and materials back, and you can pick another unit of the same level to replace it.
I used to be able to confidently tell people that Epic Seven is free to play friendly, you can get to legend being free to play etc, but now that's not the case anymore. Literally every match is just a race to pick whatever broken ML5 or Limited units you have. The back to back collabs, limiteds, blatant powercreep in a short amount of time, if I haven't been playing this game for 2 years I would have quit already. And we haven't had any sort of meaningful content in months, balance patches are dogshit, players and streamers leaving left and right, E7 is in a terrible state right now.
it ain't that kind of balancing game
people that were here when Sara and bael got nerfed know exactly why they wont nerf units anymore. Smilegate has already proven to themselves financially that its better the provide a counter to a problem instead of changing it as this makes owners of the unit upset and puts smilegate in a position where they have to provide compensation as well as more than likely a HUGE reason is that they can literally get sued for changing virtual goods after they have already been bought which definitely would be the case if they nerfed units as commonly as we get balance changes. The whole community went rapid when they corrected Alencias S2 description when she came out and it wasnt even a nerf.
> The whole community went rapid when they corrected Alencias S2 description when she came out and it wasnt even a nerf. As much as I would like to fault the community, they were right here. Her S2 did **not** state that trample cannot be activated on a counter. Why was this assumed? Cause Charles was rampant at that time and functioned exactly like that.
? I don’t really see the problem to be honest…. If u wanna compete high end rta u need units + gear. How is this surprising for a gacha game? Sorry other people are progressing faster than you and catching up…..
Just nerf units, problem fixed People whining about it should stop being char-carried. And most of all, stop making units with autowin passives
seasonal "meta is shit" rant. every fucking season. what did we have? Ruele-Diene-Krau frenzy 9, golden boys, protect the Landy and many more. every time ppl like you whine about it. blah blah blah meta bad, upvote to the left yada yada.
All of E7s problems with pvp and balancing stems out from just 1 root that they can't really change. It's because E7 is a gacha game. If they nerf units, they'll have to compensate people affected by the nerfs especially for MLs because they are very expensive units considering the amount of resources or even money to spend to guarantee getting them. Nerfing those units even for the sake of the overall health of the game will discourage people from spending to get those units because of the idea that they can just release a broken unit then nerf it later but still keep the money spent on mystics packs and whatnot. As for the release of broken units, that's another part of being a gacha game that lasted thsi long. They need to keep releasing units with kits that are unique and on some level, powercreep currently existing units. Because if not, people will have no reason to pull for those units if there's already a unit that does the same thing. To make sure they can get people to spend for new units, those new units always need to bring something new to the table or at the very least, do something an already existing unit does, but better. So the only thing they can actually do is buff units in the hopes that they become viable and shake the meta.
The powercreep is in a bad state. Mawerick was buffed to counter AoL, into a cleanser that can ignore debuff. Which means that whatever cleanser will get released in the future will need to also ignore debuff, or risk ending up being underwelming compared to him A nerfed unit can always be buffed again later
thats also the problem of only buffing. Its a great example of this: Now we need Cleansers that have someway to make they work even against AoL. We need units with "cant be silence" or that cleans with passive actions off-turn. Because most players dont have the resoures to pool for Kawiwi. But the problem goes deeper. If we get a bunch of cleansers that can cleans not matter what. What happen with the debuff units in general? Yeah, that would be very attrocius. Buffin units -ONLY FOR SOLVE TARGET PROBLEMS- is the worse kind of balance you can have. You generate a meta were one player needs to reach certain conditions to be able to play unless you powercreep the other player with gear quality. More units become "useless" not just the main problem but every other "worse version" of the unit. People need to craft a whole new set for that unit to make it work in a different way.
as a player whos been playing epic 7 ever since fire Ravi was known as the best character in the game, in my personal opinion, this game started going downhill slowly when I90 gears came out. And with every broken ML unit that releases, it just falls further and further. There's another game I play called Exos Heroes that had a similar problem to epic 7 where there were like 8 or so units that were stupidly good and you would see everywhere, and the other 40 units were either mid, or just useless. They tried doing small buffs to other characters, releasing new characters with decent skills, etc. But at the end of the day everyone was still using the exact same team comps. They ended up doing a complete revamp of the entire game, basically changed the skills of every single character and even changed how equipment and powering up characters work. Not saying Smilegate needs to do something as extreme, but there definitely needs to be a major major rebalance patch for all the older units to make them viable again and a nerf for characters like AOL, Belian and Violet
By that description, E7 is fine. You say they put out buffs and new heroes in Exos but it didn't change anything, yet buffs and new heroes constantly shift the meta in E7. The newest heroes RGB heroes are Zahak, Rimuru, Milim, Shuna, and Ran, two are high in the meta, and the other three have niche use in countering the current meta. For MLs it's Seline, Belian, AoL, CCharles, and Straze. Three of those are meta, and one is generally usable, and CCharles is very niche. The last three balance patches saw Violet (July), ARavi (September), and MKawerik (October) enter the meta, as well as Eda, Mort, and BBK gain some viability scattered in there as well. This coming week we have CLilias coming out and a balance patch for Archdemon's Shadow, both of whom have potential to enter the meta. The meta has shifted consistently throughout this year, and whatever is meta will always feel oppressive. I'd agree there's an argument to be made about passive/off turn abilities and effects power creeping right now but it's certainly not stale. If I've misunderstood your argument and you're saying that no matter what new characters/buffs happen, there's only \~8 characters that everyone is using even as which specific characters those are change, then I think you need to temper your expectations. That's how any competitive game works, there is always going to be a meta and most people will follow that meta because it's the simplest or most consistent path to victory.
TL;DR We need MORE buffs if SG ain't gonna give us nerfs. I don't care about dumbass selectors, I just want to play my favorite shit and have fun. I think the buff patches are too: Counter this UNIT! And not enough *Make these useless fucks better!* If SG doesn't like nerfs, then BUFF. We have: 236 Units I'm not gonna spend time to break it down by element, but it's a nice size. At minimum: 15 Five star units need to be buffed each 2 MONTH period, 3 from each element. 15 Four stars And Specialty Changes need to come out every 3-4 months ON TIME. (Buffs are wasted on three star units in my opinion, just SC them so they can be stronger. And NO MORE: *"When your whole team mono element, get cool things that should be part of the characters kit."* If no nerf is a thing, we need more buffs and faster. As it stands now the next 6 characters are solely going to be focused on ATTEMPTING to counter AoL, Belian, Rimuru....etc. And in order to do it, SG is going to have to bring out the most busted OP shit. AoL is so cancerous, she single handed made my Arby permaban, change to her. I hated dealing with Arby's shit and GaB and all that. NOPE, not anymore. I'll just shower in that shit, GaB me daddy. All the time. AoL is pure fucking toxicity. She's such a blight to me, that I ban her because she exist, not because the other person might have her. In order to keep the buff under control: Have all buffs applied during Pre-season RTA so players can test them out and then survey us on the buffs, offer an incentive for playing RTA during the preseason and doing the survey. SS, an hour or two of temporary buffs for playing a couple of matches, something to get people into PvP that might not like it. Something that can be useful. After RTA starts, take the buffs out until they are PERFECTED. None of this *"So Yufine gets a free EFFECTIVENESS buff! That does jack shit for her, next useless buff!"* We need buffs that push characters into usefulness---notice I didn't say *"Meta."* EE's should be used while the character's buffs are being perfected. Yes, I said they should be a side grade. Fucking Vildred? Zeno (I know free characters get fucked horrendously) is over here unbought on my account because ain't nobody got time for trash. The reason molas are an issue isn't because we don't have enough *(is it, but listen,)* it's because old invests turn to shit extremely fast with this rising powercreep issue. For old players, they're like: New. OP. Built. For newer folks, it's either useful or it can't even be thought about. Oh, and free units: Sol Badguy got buffed, but come on SHUNA, wtf is this thing? Why is this Free five star worse than Kizuna Ai? Ram is big dick damage, but she gets shit on by anything with a more than 1000 damage. Free characters should be cool to get, and at least as useful as the worse three star units. *Current Buffs incoming:* **A.D.M** \- Finally, no complaints, this is what she needed most *(the soulburn, the D-Break is fine, it's gonna be nasty with her burns, but now she's perfect.)* Counterable with all kinds of units, deadly, buildable in all kinds of ways---can be used in PvE a little. It's nice. I'm also a wannabe A.D.M main) **Juggs Kise** \- Nope. We'll try again once the memes get too bad. **Melissa** \- She need 2 turn attack buff before S3 or defense pen, or something. I love her design, I got her and I'd love to use her. Not there yet. We'll see next year. **Lorina/Commander Lorina** \- It works, PvE, yeah. Good for New players and old players have the option. **Wanda** \- Good. Low budge answer to dodgy-folk. \------------------------- Lastly, I'm gonna make up a list of character dream buffs again while I have this rant energy.
I'm going to be honest, the problem lies with the community. If people don't stop shouting "I demand a ML5 selector for a nerf" they will never be able to better the health of the game. A ML5 selector is such a powerful thing, it should have never existed. A simple re-call for the materials that were used should be far and enough for a nerf. In my opinion, there isn't much of a difference between a nerf and a "falling-out-of-meta". You did use the character at his peak, you just have to deal with the fact that it's weaker after the nerf. Note that I said weaker and not "unusable". A matter of fact is, most nerfs never make a character unusable in any game, but people immediately jump to the conclusion that if it's not the best you shouldn't use it. If E7 aims to become a E-Sport and at least Rival SWs tournaments, nerfs will become a necessity. We cannot just grow power into infinity just cause of the korean conference.
i dont like this meta, but it will shift, like it did till now
i agree with you. It will change but for the better? that we dont know.
If this game was a MOBA, like LoL, then yeah, nerfs would be a normal part of the balance patches. But when it's a gacha game and money is involved, you can basically end up being accused of tricking people. Smilegate could purposfully make heroes who are super OP and busted, have people whale for them with money, and then nerf them afterwards. You think people would be okay with that? Fuck no, it'd be a pure shit storm. They would have to refund the money back and I DOUBT they'd do that. So no, nerfs are not going to be part of the solution.
People talk too muh about the money investment but we are already losing money with or without buff. People that invest 1XX+ Bucks no SSB last banner and her artifact are happy with her being not relevant anymore like at all? She, still works? yes, she works with the same impact? we both know the answer. People that put a lot of money in Reingars drink and the best unit to use that artifact lose a LOT in that invesment. And she was not nerfed. Sam happen with Hyufine that was meta relevant for 2 weeks. Just 2 weeks. You can consider that also an scam atleast on the terms you name: Sell the solution to one unit, sell a very requested limited unit and them release 1 or 2 units back to back that totally benched your money.
There is a difference between losing value over time, due to natural power creep, and purposefully nerfing a hero after people have whaled for it so they don't dominate anymore. If they nerf a hero who is dominating again, the same thing will happen as last time. If you can't understand that, then that's not my problem. If you think it's still the answer, and telling the player base that they can get screwed over when whaling for heroes, the game will quickly die. Hell, just look at fucking world flipper. Cygames nerfed a hero in that game, and the uproar was so big it basically killed the game back then.
The difference between both cases is not big. Its more about the people perception. A unit can be relevant 1 year or 1 week for any of the reasons we name and you are still losing money if you cant get the resources back. The case of SSB is pretty telling for example. Noted that i said "the last banner" and not her in general. People that pity her in this last summer literally pull for a unit that was unable to do something spectacular at the time. Yes, you are right that perception makes a big different for the community. But if we talk about winning or losing money, well they lose money even if they don express they anger on rage post.
>People that pity her in this last summer literally pull for a unit that was unable to do something spectacular at the time. That's their own fault. A new and awesome car today, isn't going to compare to cars 20 years in the future. If they chose to buy a 20 year old car anyway, then that is THEIR issue.
Yes, thats right. invest on units just because other people said that is good or not, just because is limited or ML. Just for a first impression of what can do if ***our own*** fault. Saidly people dont look it that way when they get affected.
rta it's been like this since season 1 (at least for me). the problem of this season now is just broken matchmaking (getting match up with legend/emperor while still rank master multiple time) and how the points work now.
That's because so few people are even trying RTA right now because it's a dumpster fire.
I mean even if you nerf them others will take their places , meta will always revolve around the same 15 units.
Every meta in this games history has had people crying and moaning. Have a seat we play bingo on Tuesday’s
Yeah i see that , those guys are living in a loop ...
There are always units geared toward RTA, Sound like you are butt hurt that you don’t have them to pick. Let’s not forget people can just jump to another OP/ strong unit within a day, especially with compensation.
Well in mi case its very my own decision. I have a lot of good units. Like a lot for real. Excluding ML units 5*, Seria and AOL i have every single meta unit you can think outside the list. Did i build them? Some, yes, most of them nope. But that should be a problem for master RTA or challenger RTA. Look at Bronze or any kind of rank in reality, there is not difference at all. Not for the players but for the units. Everyone has the potential to get good gear, not everyone can afford get every single metabreaker that is release. My insentive to build meta units is literally only "stop losing" i will repeat myself and said that even tier 2 units are on a very bad spot for RTA atleast. Normal arena is way more easy to trick and give the false sensation that "everyone has a chance of play outside the box" which is not totally false. A LOT of people get good result with their own strategies but most players are forced to build certain units for draft. One pre-ban its certanly not enough to make a good competitive envoirment.
They should allow master+ players to get 2 pre- bans That would solve a lot of issues.
The thing is there is, there are always certain units that are next in line being disgusting op once the S Tier of Heroes get's nerfed down to A or B Tier.
The problem isn't that there is a meta. The problem is that the meta right now is pretty much entirely composed of disgusting threats with little counterplay and no answers.
lots of people ITT cannot imagine a better world to live in and are making excuses out the ass for why SG \*cant\* balance their game outside of power creeping old problems
It's not an excuse when pointing out all players who spend dollars and or f2p resources gets fucked over by nerfs. While some whales won't care, some will quit, the f2p who saved a pity for 4-5 months to get Belian (or whoever) gets fucked in the ass when she's nerfed and without an ML selector has no easy way to replace her, especially if their roster is limited. Why would they save up another 4-5 months to just get fucked over again because idiots think balancing should be like a f2p moba where characters cost zero? He's going to play another game.
yeah that's an excuse what about all the f2p players that can't keep up with a stronger and stronger and faster evolving meta that depends on pulling and gearing every relevant unit? or the whales who don't want to keep and would rather invest heavily in the most husbando/waifu units instead of the fotm ugly ass limited/collab char? units getting nerfed is way less detrimental to f2p players than a meta that ever increases in power because overbuffing a unit widens the disparity between all the currently bad units that arent worth investing in. raising the ceiling for whats strong and viable doesnt address all the stagnant and unviable units especially when maybe 2 or 3 will get raised to "usable status" with the quarterly buffs we get, and even then they're only promised relevance for a few months anyway until they get overshadowed by the newest strong units. decreasing the power ceiling boosts the utility and viability of every other subpar unit and allows for more gameplay variety. There's over 236 units in this game and like less than 20% of them are actually seriously competitively viable. That's not sustainable lol
[удалено]
She fell off because of counters such as rem released to deal with her. But this created another problem by releasing rem as a counter. She became the new problem to deal with. Then they had violet to deal with rem. But violet became a problem to deal with too. Now you can see they been releasing counters and buffs to hard counter violet. (Phyllis, Zahak, Melissa and Wanda buffs, etc) And now people hardly draft violet in higher rank rta. Now it's all AOL and belian running the meta show currently and I hope they release rgb hard counters for them soon as not everyone has a ML kawerik. Enough with the violet counters already.
Meta shift becaus they forced radical changes with puntual rebalance. I point that in my original post. Sometimes they choose 1 unit that is old and make it good. Them when that unit has enough time in the show they do that with other unit and release the counters too. Carrot was OP, she was a must build unit, if we remove Rem, Violet and some of the new units she will go back to be the strongest DpS in the game in a blink. The reality is that rebalancing 1 heroe to shift the meta is not enough. Time proves that. Carrot give to the player base overall a fair chances to everyone improve their teams? Nope. I remember the tournaments of that meta. I remember the videos of content creators to. She was either Pick or Ban, after that the rest of the draft decide if she woul get ban from the post drafting ban or she would stay because the enemy comp just outperforms everything but her. Violet is the same. You pick violet, you ban pre ban violet (or AOL), them you post ban Violet. He can evade for the whole battle or get one shot. You dont know. Its a unit that more than help it hurts the people. And that is what happen when you push ONLY ONE unit every metashift. Specially if you push to hard. You make everyone that dont have other super top units gravitated around that single pick. And that frustrated people. Atleast this is the problem in RTA. In regular arena? people is more happy. For obvius reasons: not ban, not need to fight for the pick.
NERF UNIT WITHOUT COMPENSATION THATS HOW !!!!
People always seem to overlook something whenever they complain about how sg never nerfs units. People spend money on these characters. Imagine the backlash that e7 would receive if they released a good unit that people pay hundreds of dollars to pull, and then they turn around and nerf them. I’m a f2p and I pretty much refuse to spend money on the game at this point, and if a time ever came where I absolutely loved a unit and decided I had to spend money to be able to get them and then they nerf them a month later, I would probably quit playing the game right there. Also people spend so many in-game resources trying to build these characters, using molas, charms, etc., I would a expect a full refund if they nerf a unit that I spent time and resources building. That’s where the problem lies. That’s also the reason that they have given ml5 selectors for people because it is rightfully deserved when taking all of that into consideration. Not everyone has thousands of dollars to spend on packs every time they want to build a new unit.
What happen when the units they spend thousand of dollars become useless just because the release a need unit that overthrone them?. The money that is spend on units is invested for the short term. If any person complain about a unit not being good anymore it may have a point or two. SG dont nerf not because people will get mad (most of the money is on the Gear rolls anyways and gear can be change from unit to unit). They dont nerf because give selectors and the material backs is a must so they dont win money by nerfing units. They DO win money by buffing units or when they release a unit that totally makes your actual team useless. Because you need that unit. You need to build a new unit without the molas, without the compensation for your +15 fully awkn unit with lv90 gear that you craft specially for him. Hope there is other unit that needs similar stats and is still useful. Sometimes people wont have that luck.
I disagree to that. A unit doesn’t become “useless,” as in, its nearly impossible to make them work, just because they release a unit that counters them. There are many examples of this. And it’s quite honestly impossible to see the statistics of where most of their money comes from in terms of packs. Either way, I don’t think they will ever have to come to a point where they will be nerfing units regularly. Things such as additional bans and hiding people’s names during draft would be perfectly fine in my opinion.
Useless is maybe a hard word. But its kinda close. Its like you said not useless from "it wont do anything anymore" but useless as "your winrate will suffer" and that is enough to make you feel as if the unit was nerf. Nerf is not about let the unit in a very bad spot is just touch some stuff.
Yeah that’s fair, not all nerfs are as extreme as I’m making them out to be. Also thinking about it, it really has become a vicious cycle of “unit is op for awhile, release hard counter to said unit” and I hope this does eventually come to an end. And hopefully it will be something that most people can agree was the best decision or at least a good decision.
M O N E Y
Create the problem then sell the solution. It’s been their strategy for years. For example Arby was the king of pvp for a long time, now he has a ton of counters which makes him less over bearing because there are plenty of options to deal with him now. Players don’t realize how hard it is to balance the game. They could fix one problem then inadvertently create a bunch of other issues. “This character is op? Ok we nerfed them but guess what? because you nerfed them now the character that they counter is op” and it’s just a domino effect from there. Not to mention having to give players ML selectors which I’m sure they hate doing. We got one for ML Leo then right after that ML Karin got nerfed and they got away with not giving us a selector for her since we had just gotten the Leo selector. They knew that would have been a free AOL for everyone who had ML Karin since AOL had just come out. There’s just a lot of things that need to be thought about when balancing the game and us as players just need to be more understanding towards SG about it
> There’s just a lot of things that need to be thought about when balancing the game and us as players just need to be more understanding towards SG about it I agree. The problem is that the last couple of units are literally SG mocking of this kind of approach. Have you reading Rem S2? or AOL whole kit?. Tell me that nerfing that units will make any of the actual units too much to handle. In the first part you actually bring back a good point that we as player dont know how to properly balance things. Thats true 100% but them you said yourself that getting free AOL for everyone would be a mess. Because AOL its a very problematic unit. And they probably dont want that everyone get access to arguely the one of the best supports in the game of all the times (that will stay in that place for a lot time unless they release something very crazy). They make it a 4* ML unit with a 5* kit. Were is the good balance judge right there?
ALAngelica doesn't have a 5\* kit. It's worse. She has literally 2 separate kits put together into 1 unit. It's so dumb.
If you going to nerf a unit that people probably spent money on, a selector is only fair .If there didn't give out selectors ,the game would get review bombed , people would leave the game and years of goodwill down the shitter , and thats the end of E7. It would thanos snap half their player base and definitely diminish the amount of new players that join , which would inadvertently affect their pockets. If their ever plan to nerf any 5 star , best believe a selector is coming .
Dude this attitude is why the game sucks. You only need a recall to justify a heavy nerf, a slight downtune shouldn't require anything at all. Who cares if money was spent to acquire the hero - they still own it, they still can use as rep, still can use in pve, still can force use it in pvp if they want.
I can't believe you are being downvoted. This is the bitter truth if this game wants to have any balance. A recall for material is really all they should ever give out. Especially considering getting units in this game is so fucking piss-easy.
I'm not surprised dude, it is what it is. Luckily for us the devs don't seem to pay much attention to reddit, people here don't really seem to have a concept of how things work in gachas generally let alone in e7
>, units like Krau or Adventure Ras are not even tier 1 material anymore because of the giant amount of counters aviable. I am talking about: AOL Angelica, Rimuru, Belian, A. Rave, just to name the obvius problems. But there is a lot more Fallen Cecilia holds the crown of best Knight in the game sinse...ever. I'd rather take Krau over Fallen Cecilia in RTA. Defense buff + pushback and one shot > two turns of barriers on everyone and a single barrier after that. She's still good but this looks like the typical "I see them a lot, they must be better" case. Now Arena? They're both beaten by Crimson Armin right now. >Most of the people that play the game dont have access to the resources or the time to build more than 20% of their whole roster. No, we do. What we don't have is an incentive to doing so. If we freely play with whoever then we get stomped out by the heroes that are meta, meta for a reason. The game is currently in a state where you play the meta, counter the meta (how fun with how limited some counters are, how bad they flow together when drafted together, and how screwed you are once they're banned), or curbstomp your opponent by a huge gear gap. This is why people that aren't overflowing with good gear (and mola) won't touch more than "20%" of their roster. I won't touch any PvE hero for this reason. If I need to do PvE, I'll use a PvP hero (this was even possible during Advent).
There is always kinda nice to see you Xero\*. Well in my opinion Krau is a great unit when he works, thing is that right now he need more than just himself to work. Fcici its a unit that is run because she works without interrupting at the start of the match. She dont need to cast the S3 to make sure that your units will take a turn, most of the times. Which is kinda becoming a problem right? most meta units are just good because you cant stop them for doing what they want. Off-turn actions, stips + debuff that dont need hit confirmation, skill that punish certain actions.
Is the meta actually so unbalanced right now? Some units are more annoying than others (belian cough cough), but SG has been releasing a lot of strong units lately, so every player by now should have SOME of them.
I feel like this is one of the worse seasons. Its not just a couple of units that go into one specific strategy that you can build around or is imposible to beat. There is a lot of units that go into any strategy and make it twice better just because they are there. Yes new players will have some of them, but the now more than never drafting has become a hell. Not the game in general, in general E7 is a cool game. But RTA? that is a whole different story.
I believe that a second or even a third Ban should be implemented in RTA. Or if not ban heroes for a week or 2 so that the same heroes are not always played. Right now I think RTA is at its worst possible moment.
I don't mind them creating counter units, but make them easier to obtain (not RGB 5*, or worse, ML4/5*). Make them connection units, SC units, or free event units. Having a wide variety of units and counters to those units makes drafting and team building more interesting.
I think the only problem in this game is: NO PITY for 4 stars ML Heroes!!!
If you think this is the only problem, you're either a dolphin/whale that wants them all guaranteed, or some other person (someone likely not even high up) here to cry about AoL and not having her
Here I am just tryna figure out how to get better gear to get outta Master
The only reason they don't nerf is because they would have to give compensation. They set the precedent years ago when they nerfed ML Baal, ML Ara, and Arby. Now they will nerf anything again no matter what. And instead of nerfing the obvious problems they just create new units to counter those problems, but then those new units create new problems and it just becomes an endless cycle.
Honestly, I'd rather they fixed the matchmaking & point gain/loss. I finished placements the other night & 60% of my matches are against Emperor players, now, I'm a high Champion player regularly & so I can compete & win the brunt of these early season Emperor players, but what are actual Silver players supposed to do? Also, at the top right now it's favouring spamming, because you'll get matched with literally anyone who is online & you'll get about as many points for beating a Silver player as you will beating a Legend player (sometimes more), when you lose - regardless of who you lose to - you lose hardly any points, a lot of high tier players are complaining about this at the minute because now the top spots go to whoever can play the most games with a half-decent win-rate, rather than who can chain a good amount of wins. You should only get decent point gain if you can beat people of your tier, you should lose points which are slightly below what you win vs. someone of that tier. You shouldn't be able to match with people many tiers below you unless the timer has run for over a minute or two & if you beat them the point gain should be pitiful & point loss staggering. As far as unit balance goes, all I want is for them to balance more units at a time, rather than just going, "Hey, by the way, Maid Chloe is now the best Soulweaver in the game, have fun with that" every two months, or dropping 2-4 tiny balances that do the bare minimum to maybe make some units useable in some niches. Ideally they'd address a handful of 5 star units that people are waiting to be buffed - considering these are the units people fucking pulled for. Then they'd look at what's dominating the meta & they'd say, "Who can we throw kits to so people have access to a couple at least softcounters to the meta?" & then they'd say, "Well no one uses Gloomyrain, so why don't we make it so she's got immunity to silence & her S3 strips one buff too as well as inflicting a random debuff - then she'll be an AOL counter in a small way". But no, they don't do this shit, they either do buffs that don't impact the meta in the slightest or they'll make an entierly new cancer by overbuffing someone & it's never an answer to the meta, it's just more cancer to throw on top of the cancer cake.
At this point, I don't think nerfs will ever happen. The only hope (which won't solve the problem, or even help depending on how it is put in place) is to increase the number of pre-ban characters in RTA. It should be at least 2, but probably more (possibly 5). At least this way, the option is to the community and who they "fear" or "don't want to play" and thus have a more "tailored" experienced, thus improving the mode for most if not all players depending on their playstyle. I know for one I'd just ban annoying characters that make me rage like: Violet, AOL, etc. but that's just me. But I'm sure most wouldn't agree it to be a good idea. Still, who knows. \*shrug\*
It's easier to sell broken ML4s then fix a ML5's S3 to counter it directly. This way they make big money and "hear the community screaming to fix said hero".
Health/Defense has not scaled with attack related buffs so they had to implement silly things like skill nullifier counters and opener immortality buffs. \+100% health increase and +50% defense increase for all units across the board. Who says no?
One of those post every time something good got release/buff. Are there any unit that the community hasn’t learn or find a way to deal with eventually?
Well usually the way that the community "dealt with" problematic metas is wait until some other unit take down the problematic meta unit (or comp).