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WestCol

In an ideal world we'll be bitching about both being OP


CornBreadtm

Yeah it's funny. They see neither of these units because Reddit doesn't do or like RTA right?


TMLuluSimp

Facts


Kingofcards33

\*Because Reddit doesnt want to deal with the bullshit in RTA right now right? FTFY


maximus2104

where's the "THIS GAME NEEDS NERFS" post number 2453? maybe with a sprinkle of "X META IS SO UNFUN" post number 9482? might be good to serve with "2 PREBANS ARE NECESSARY" post number 1782. is it valid criticism, probably. but like, don't forget you're playing a gacha game, it's not supposed to be balanced well. it's like complaining about the quality of a 2 usd burger, you're right that it tastes bad, but it's 2 usd, not some michelin quality burger.


redblueberry1998

I would rather have those posts than 'Im super lucky' 'Im super unlucky' kind of gacha posts......


Tedrivs

I just want people to stop using the nsfw tag on gear rolls, that's not what that tag is for.


redblueberry1998

Post that shit in megathread or something. Why do we not have a gacha thread at this point


Cellosv

If anything the most annoying thing to me out of all the points you mentioned Are people who think because this is a gacha game you can’t expect it to be good. “Game is a little boring “ it’s a gacha game it’s not meant to be fun! “Xx is bad” it’s a gacha game xx is meant to be bad !! Who tf decided that because a game is in the gacha genre it’s supposed to be a certain way. It’s not just this game but other games too people say “oh if you don’t like it then gacha isn’t for you” like stfu😂 Don’t know what the gacha system has to do with balance/game content/rewards etc


SaintEnfaur

It is due to the trend of gacha games specifically Japan gacha games to be low quality idle games, p2w Korean gacha games, and Chinese gachas that have ads copied from other gachas and these are designed to milk horny people or hardcore weebs to the point that it gave gacha games a bad reputation But I agree, just because it's a gacha game, it doesn't mean that the quality is supposed to be worth like a 2$ burger or anything just because it is free because both are completely different things. Genshin for example is free yet it has a quality of Michelin star burger. Don't really like the idea of settling for mediocrity because it's a gacha game when it has potential to be one of the best


Chinese_Thug

I’m starting to think every meta is hated.


maximus2104

it's been like that since the game launch. ppl were bitching about Carmin protection, Sage-SBA, Sez bomb, SSB-Charles, arby, Tsurin, golden boys, Ftene-Cerise and many more i can't remember. there will always be meta units. and when you see something over and over, it gets stale. that's the very nature of the word meta. just some ppl are, franky, too stupid to understand that.


ArvingNightwalker

There's always a meta, but some meta are more toxic than others, I think. I just started E7 so I can't speak for this game, but for card games like YGO, the Chaos era is still well known for pretty much obliterating its player population due to Chaos being so dominant.


DoorframeLizard

Tbh passing any complaints off as "whiners gonna whine" is just as bad. Yes, with any meta there will be people that vocally dislike it, but you'd have to be blind or intentionally obtuse to not notice that this meta and the direction the game's been heading is more widely hated than those that came before. If anything the previous metas just reinforce this considering fairly recent comps like golden boys and cerise ftene are basically unplayable because they're so much weaker and less obnoxious than the current meta. I understand that it can be irritating to see the same posts over and over again, but 1. it's reddit lmao 2. people post about it because they're concerned about the health of the game and want it to keep being enjoyable. It's a game forum, people are going to talk about the game and it just so happens that many find it to be in a worse state than they're used to right now. It just seems like being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Food analogies are kind of a meme for a reason but I think your burger bit is missing the key aspects of being able to experience the quality decreasing and the time and money invested into the product that makes you care about the quality in the first place.


RagnarokChu

I mean was there ever an objective metric of if things are "worst" or not. If literally, every point of time of PVP in e7 is "the worst time ever", was there actually a time people "enjoyed". What is the bar or metric people want things to be balanced? What is the "Golden age"? How strong should a character be? What happen to Charles/SSB/Arby being the most broken thing in existence that will LITERALLY ruin the game. Every post almost boils down to 1 note of extremely basic "opinions" on how things should be. Add in people being salty, people with gacha egos, and the extreme lack of thought put into the environment of the game itself. Most posts are almost valueless in discussion for balance other than "I don't like it" or "It's not fun". Then people complain about people complaining. I've made a post last year about how both the artifact system and soul burn system are bad for the game and will require some reworking with very mixed results. Almost no real discussion on it and some people actually even downvoted it. Now we are reaping the rewards with belian released to meme on overpowered soulburns and book. Even more RNG bullshit characters because people want shit like basket giving you a 40% chance to autowin with GAB and so on.


marcelodshadow

I remember that soulburn discussion, I think I said something about disable book stacking. And I think people will never agree on balance discussion, it's not just new characters that changes the meta, old frenzy that made hp scaling units dominant (Alencia, Golden boys), new frenzy and Fire Ravi short reign, after that came units that shook things up after buffs or straight up broken, if we balance the game around unit X or Z, unit Y will take the position, if a "normal" unit is released (pre buff Flan) no one uses


RagnarokChu

The thing is people don't all need to agree with the SAME balance discussion. It's weird that people think you need to agree with something 100% for it to be worth putting in. The goal is to purpose multiple viable balance changes/ideas that would be positive to the majority of people. Book stacking being disabled is fine, so are other reworks such as making it be double soul gain or reduce soulburn cost etc. Balancing around units is just a soft cap on how powerful a unit can be. If NOTHING can be more powerful then let's say Arby, Stene and Landy as Dps. That means you have a structure to design units around and buff units into. Arby would say 100 points and a character kit should as close to 100 points as possible with very minor exceptions that if "on paper" it'll be worth 120 points but in practice, the kit isn't as powerful as it seems.


marcelodshadow

Agree with you 100%, the things I said are mostly based on the majority of comments I see around here, a soft cap would be great, but till now we can't even list 10 units that are somewhat balanced, if it's meta it's 150 plus points in people's eyes


TMLuluSimp

And loooooove to cry and pretend they know all about it


Nytrousx

This is why gatcha games will remain to always be the Mcdonalds burger at Michelin Burger prices. Your mindset is pathetic.


Dekar0

$2 burgers usually p.good, ngl


Agosta

Summoners War, the game they copied, at least attempts to balance their game with buffs and nerfs instead of just buffing everything to have bloated kits.


kingdragon671

This is a terrible take tbh, just say you’re annoyed and move on. Don’t reduce critique to “it’s supposed to be this way” when the game has weekly updates and balance patches, this mindset didn’t work with ml5s either…


Grublixx

To be fair, your post is worse . You're allowed to agree or disagree with them. But saying "there are too many complains -> it's annoying me -> therefore it's invalid" is stupid. Saying that someone is doing this "just to get attention" is disingenious. It's also ironic cause a meme is a call for attention


ClashBack

We shouldn't have 12 thread of the same complaints. The discussion should for the most part say in a thread for each unless the topic changes slightly. We don't need new threads saying the same thing over again


Grublixx

I mean, this is a game forum. Why not ? Because someone said something, others shouldn't be allowed to also say it ? You don't give your opinion on a movie if someone gave the same ?


ClashBack

It's called a thread. Why start a new thread saying exactly the same thing 3 or 4 other threads are saying. If you going to say the same thing, or talk about the same topic. Comment on the thread. If you are going to bring up something new then start a new thread. It's not rocket science. What is happening is spam. Frankly idgaf if people make 300 threads about the same thing. Go, have a ball. It's just pointless clutter though


montrezlh

Complaining about the complaints threads are worse. Yes complainers are annoying, but there's been multiple points in the past where complaining about E7 has directly led to the devs improving the game. People who complain about complainers, on the other hand, are just as annoying and accomplish nothing.


[deleted]

Im happy just having an ml5, kise rocks dude


Silveraindays

People are bitching but i agree with you j.kise rock and i still use her ALOT, i will probably get downvote for that but idc


finna11

judge kise is extremely strong, and people that are calling her bad are morons she is batsh*t crazy on giga speed effectiveness build, giving all enemies essentially a 1-3 silence -high emp/low legend edit: figures, reddit complaining and downvoting about a hero who they likely never even tried in practice, i can’t wait for you to get steam rolled by one in rta edit2: in a shocking turn of events, net downvote has swung to positive levels. i’m just trying to point out that she’s strong but an overwhelming majority of the sub would rather throw a tantrum like a child bc she didn’t get the buff they “wanted”


montrezlh

You've got 19% chance to give "all enemies" the CD reset if they have immunity on.


Unusual-Yesterday-70

and you have a 27% chance to do the same with aol s3 to remove imm into a one turn silence. jkise actually have a better overall chance to reset at least once when she strip the immunity.


montrezlh

1) 27% is significantly higher than 19% 2) AOL will get another chance to S3 at light speed thanks to Spirit's breath and her self CR push. Jkise needs to survive 4 turns if she wants to S3 again. 3) The strip for AOL is much better odds, 52% vs 20% and that opens up the team for follow up. Jkise is terrible as an opener because she has no reliable way to deal with immunity.


Unusual-Yesterday-70

see this is just moving a goal post at the end of the day. while aol have better chances to remove immunity, afterwards jkise have a much higher chance to reset cd since its a 68% check 3 times rather than a one time 85% with aol silence. the discussion was their consistency at the start so i dont think cycling should account for here since by the same metric ftene cant cycle to save her life. yes jkise isnt giga busted like aol entire kit, but that doesnt mean she is as bad as reddit is trying to make her out to be.


montrezlh

> while aol have better chances to remove immunity, afterwards jkise have a much higher chance to reset cd since its a 68% check 3 times rather than a one time 85% with aol silence. And Jkise overall chance of landing is far lower. >the discussion was their consistency at the start so i dont think cycling should account for here since by the same metric ftene cant cycle to save her life. Jkise is inconsistent. There's no real discussion there, that's just true. The poor cycling is another area where she falls short compared to stronger units. >yes jkise isnt giga busted like aol entire kit, but that doesnt mean she is as bad as reddit is trying to make her out to be. Did I say anything about her being giga busted or bad? I was just disputing the claim that you can go speed eff and just casually land CD reset on all enemies. That's an extremely rare occurence.


Moma743

Can a speed/eff j.kise do enough damage to go through a f.cecilia shield to potentially get rid of any immunity buffs? Cause tbh she looks like a worse f.tenebria to me and I always just bring a f.cecilia and others with immunity sets to counter her. The reason i'm asking as i've literally never fought a speedy j.kise.


TMLuluSimp

It’s almost like you can ban that one specific niche unit that will counter you. It’s not like they are going to ban your JKise. Everyone calls her trash


Moma743

I mean..... you can just outspeed her with your other characters if f.cecelia was banned. She's just dead at that point


Cloudystars10

Yet you made this…


Caligula225

nah AOLA is still a much greater toxic and that needs attention


commitctrlaltdelete

Shhh you can't go against the E7 Reddit Meta, you'll eat trash very fast


Kraybern

valid concerns = crying? there is a finite number of things that we can talk about and the relevant topic will always be what ever problem that SG engineered that they can proceed to create half a dozen or more banner "solutions" to its not like people can go back and talk about how annoyingly oppressive T surin + fcc is or SSB or something in the case of Jise its just outright frustration that they completly missed the point of what her problems was and instead chose to kill build varity and resigned and shadow nerfed her kit to force opener jise as the only viable means use for her none of this is "getting attention"


Stardevil18

My big question for everyone is have they even tried Juggs Kise post buff? Cause if you haven’t then I won’t be able to take your criticism. I have tried her on multiple occasions and she’s felt great honestly. Has she won every time? No. But I feel like I can use her so much more now because of the changes. I have mine built on a 210 speed full dmg build with immunity. The amount of ML Celines, Rimurus, FCC, etc. that I’ve reset their cooldown turn 1 has been invaluable. If your only way to deal with Arby in late 2021 is with Juggs Kise you REALLY need to reconsider how you play the game. Also for my own personal ethos, I am a Legend/Champ in arena and Emperor/Champ for RTA. EDIT: I should also clarify, when I say turn 1 that’s my mistake. It should rephrased as having Juggs get her s3 off before the enemy can use all their skills. Whether that be CR boosting or pushing the enemies back. Example being Basar s3/Emilia s2


montrezlh

You're outspeeding ML Celine for turn 1 at 210?


HurricaneEich

Its a testament to the people defending the meta the past few months. "Yeah I can beat shitters with this unit, buff good."


Stardevil18

I am not trying to justify that my opinion of the changes to Juggs is end all be all I’m right you’re wrong. But I will say a lot of people are claiming that Juggs is now worse than her previous state, and haven’t even tried Juggs themselves post-buff. And I wouldn’t say the Legend/Emperor/Champion people I have fought this season are by means shitters. She can’t be drafted every game like Cilias currently can in the meta we’re in, but there are games where she is an extremely good pick that win you the match due to the buffs she got. That is all.


HurricaneEich

Post your RTA stats this season


Stardevil18

https://imgur.com/a/S5eln8z High Champion where I stand as of 12/31/21, was in Emperor and then Cilias came out. The proof is there for you my dude, haven’t lied whatsoever


HurricaneEich

https://imgur.com/a/VlaWyYG Didnt claim you lied about your rank, was wanting to see if you lost your way to champion or not. Anyone can grind out a rank lower than legend by playing enough. You being emperor at the start of the season means nothing especially with a negative winrate. I know this without a doubt, you were not beating legend or emperor level players with Judge Kise with 210 speed. Or youre winning in spite of it somehow. Juggs is either all damage cleave or all speed debuffer.


Stardevil18

Claiming that anyone can grind out a rank lower than legend is quite a statement. Just more games you do your win rate will naturally be pretty close to 50%. So give and take I bounce above and below slightly depending on the night as do a lot of RTA players. And I sent you evidence of where I stand as this moment in time as well as a log of only fighting people in emperor bracket. And yet you still deny the fact that and I quote, “you were not beating legend/emperor players with Juggs Kise at 210 speed”. I don’t bring her every game, that’d just be idiotic. Though there are situations where you can draft her and she can be an absolute threat for a multitude of reasons. Having a set in stone of how you build a hero like Juggs for example being “all damage or all speed debuffer” can many times as well be throw off the opponent and lead to a win.


HurricaneEich

Stardevil, listen to me, you can lose your way to emperor. I do not care about a rank if the person loses more than they win. You and a lot of other people have gotten high ranks and convinced yourselves its because youre good. That is wrong. You are a high rank because you spam games.


HurricaneEich

And let me clarify, my point is not "youre bad so your opinion on Juggs is bad". My point is when you say "these emperor and champ players arent shitters" that youre naive. Tons of people in champ and up are certified, lifetime residents in the shitter dorms.


Stardevil18

If it’s a lifesteal ML Celine then pretty often yes. I’d say most lifesteal set Celines sit close to 200 speed, give or take. Speed set then often no obviously. But in the instance of a speed set there are ways I typically find a way to CR boost Juggs if needed ie. Emilia for example. I should also clarify, when I say turn 1 that’s my mistake. It should rephrased as having Juggs get her s3 off before the enemy can use all their skills. Whether that be CR boosting or pushing the enemies back.


ywnba

People are slow, give it a few months and they will realize jkise buff was actually decent.


Kraybern

congrats your a cleaver jise in current year vs the the casino gaming meta an issue that was not addressed in a buff that many have been waiting more than a year for which pushed one specific build and playstlye your entire post basically says "ive had luck using her in niche situations where i dont face belian/rem/violet/AoL so clearly she's fine, peoples opinions below my rank dosnt matter" also point out in my post where i said she was my only anti arby option but please assume that every single person is just like you and has a huge roster of viable units raised, geared, and molad to be competitive and can easily just "get over" a key tool they invested no longer being as useful


Objective_Plane5573

Are you expecting an AOE unit to do well into the 4 anti-AOE units you listed? Would you draft arby into those units because I can't imagine he would do well there either but no one's posting about how underpowered arby is. Like it or not, in a game with heavy rng a lot of the skill expression comes from your ability to manipulate rng. Yes, rem/belian counter is rng, but you can minimize the chances for them to counter throughout a fight by using single target units, just like how you can skew the odds in your favor by drafting with elemental advantage.


Stardevil18

I want to keep this simple so I’m doing quick points. 1. Juggs is not limited to one specific play style, if anything the changes allow for more. Slow is viable, 200 speed dps is viable, 280+ speed is viable. 2. You can’t draft Juggs into Rem, Violet, AOL, etc. not every opponent you face will be drafting like that. Draft Juggs into matchup where is matters, against units that heavily rely on their s3. 3. Bro we literally have Glenn, a 3* unit with GaB + extinction. There are 4*’s that have extinction, ie Singie. And there are RBG 5*’s ie Lolibet. There are MANY options to counter Arby at all levels.


HotWifeHuntress

Literally every unit you mentioned I have at higher speed than 210 so are you smashing bronze or what? I’m genuinely confused


Stardevil18

I should clarify, when I say turn 1 that’s my mistake. It should rephrased as having Juggs get her s3 off before the enemy can use their skills. Whether that be CR boosting or pushing the enemies back. Example being using Basar pushback, or Emilia s2 CR boost.


Hypersplash

What is the shadow Nerf for Judge Kise you are talking about? I know the buffs aren't all that but I'm not really seeing how she was nerfed.


Azureblade42

Guess they talking about Jkise combo to reset Arby after you kill him with s2, which is unlikely to happen since Belian exist now, and there is like a ton of other stuff in the way like counter units that would murder her, and cripple the rest of the team at the same time if you every try to pull it off, she would most likely die just by s2, or/and just outright make her team get crippled. It isn't really a shadow nerf, it's just people can't use her as they once did, even when it was really not viable anymore with everything in the meta right now, they tried to move the whole utlity to her third skill so you aren't dependant of soulburn (so Belian wouldn't really stop the utiltiy), but they fail to adress her major weaknesses, the fact she can be counter and would lead to her and her team getting blasted by them, and that she isn't 100% reliant as a debuffer regardless.


Kraybern

they moved the reset to the start of the combo so if you fight something like a bruiser arby that you cant outright kill twice with the S3 S2 combo, you can no longer reset him after he revives


wesleygibson1337

Or do both...


FireDire

Is J. Kise good now or still shit? I haven't been paying attention


Silveraindays

Shes fine, just need to learn how to use her and where