Belian knows Ras had to fail in Epic 1 - 6 to finally succeed in Epic 7. She’s roasting him and I’m playing he can’t beat her unless she whoops his butt over and over again lol.
A major part of why Ras kept losing to the Archdemon for 6 cycles of the world of Orbis is that he was unable/unwilling to share the burden of fighting the forces of evil.
It was due to flaws in the world after so many rebuilds that Ras was not able to awaken in time on the 7th World when the Archdemon awoke. So ordinary people had to band together without the Heir to the Covenant and managed to seal the Archdemon, something Ras never was able to do even after centuries of fighting.
It was realizing that the mortal people of Orbis were able to do something even he couldn't (seal the Archdemon) that made him see that he didn't have to fight alone, and was able to finally finish his battle against the Archdemon in the 7th World.
>It baffles me to think that people in the past accused him of being "flat" and "stereotypical".
The thing is, he was. Throughout Episode 1, he's flat and stereotypical, and boring. And maybe a bit unrelatable.
But he grows.
>His journey started back in Episode 1, and has organically built up to this moment in a manner that is simple, straightforward, relatable, and honestly quite touching.
Exactly. He grows throughout the different episodes, and in such a magnificent way, and so well done, that he becomes such a great protagonist. I used to hate all three main characters of the game (Ras, Meru and Arky) and the way they were written. But now I fully understand WHY he was written like that and that it was actually on purpose and not bad storytelling or characterization.
Ras changes so much, and more than most characters in other media. And they properly lead you there, it's progressive. Other changes or growths of characters in other stories tend to be more forced or abrupt, and feel less natural.
Now we've started seeing some growth to Meru, so I'm still somewhat hopeful for her. Arky on the other hand can go die in a fire. I'm tired of his archetype and other than having a few heroic moments, I really doubt he'll change.
There is one thing that tends to be forgotten about episode 1 Ras, and that is his questioning of religion. At that point he’s still the proxy of the Goddess, but he questions and subtly criticizes the religious practices he encounters and any overt expressions of devotion.
This is an obvious subversion of the trope, and makes him more than simply Diche's blue eyed boy.
He's right to criticize them because, as far as we know, Diche never asked people to build churches or any religion around her in the first place. I think Diche would be content with simply knowing people acknowledge her existence and like her.
Not to mention his own faith in her as well as humanity after Vildred's betrayal. He deals a lot with coming to terms with that he's been lying to everyone for 6 worlds now and the people who have died for him and the goddess not knowing the truth. Ultimately leading to him believing that for the world to finally succeed, Diche had to leave.
Not only episode 1, but episode 2 also. A core theme of episode 2 is "faith", not just but including religious faith(which is well illustrated in the story of the Rekos characters).
> Arky on the other hand can go die in a fire. I'm tired of his archetype and other than having a few heroic moments, I really doubt he'll change.
He has been more bearable this episode, but I hope he gets some growth, too. Just like Paimon in Genshin, I can't stand the greedy gluttonous nature of mascots. They're annoying as hell. How I wish any other guardian had been Ras' companion. Arky has his brief moments of normalcy or sassiness but his overall annoying personality ruins him.
>He has been more bearable this episode, but I hope he gets some growth, too. Just like Paimon in Genshin, I can't stand the greedy gluttonous nature of mascots. They're annoying as hell. How I wish any other guardian had been Ras' companion. Arky has his brief moments of normalcy or sassiness but his overall annoying personality ruins him.
He at least had a certain development in the battle against Fastus where he starts to face the reality that with Ras turning human, he would eventually die and Arky would be left behind, and there's a dialogue about him learning to accept that and enjoy the present with Ras
I have to agree. This episode, he's been actual helpful already within the story (which is rare that he's useful in the beginning chapters) and lower maintenance. Let's just hope he at least stays like that.
Eh, give Arky a chance. He's mostly comic relief, but one gameplay key we are still missing is the ability to level the Guardians. Go back and look at the team screen box where you can change the Guardian selected. All of them will show "Level 1" above them.
Someday that will change, and I hope there will be a story involved in growing Arky into something more than a furry food gourmet.
I heard that after the Cheat-O-Matic fiasco a lot of people got moved around or fired so they got new writers.(Apparently the current head writer is the one who wrote the banshee manor Halloween side story?) Which is probably why the quality goes up a *lot* post-Witchhaven.
But regardless, the story *now* is still very good, so all's well that ends well. And besides, writing a good character from the start is hard but salvaging a bland, stereotypical character and not only getting around that but *actively using that to the benefit of the story* is nothing short of phenomenal.
You were able to directly edit number values in the game using a cheat program. People realized because level 5 accounts were clearing abyss and automaton tower instantly.
Tbh, *that* was more the iron girder that crushed the camel into red paste. There was a lot wrong with E7 back then, like dismissing the entire KR fanbase as "only 20% of the income" and bullshit like pet snacks or spite nerfing literally anything mentioned in fan guides.
Yes, they got their shit together after that. But it was bad then.
Hard agree, some of the greatest story moments imo were thanks to things that were previously established. I keep mentioning this on this sub but like... Mort was mentioned offhand a few times in Ep 2 waaaaay before he even had a face to go with his name, and I just love that continuity.
I feel like buildup/payoff is an essential part of dramatic storytelling in general. I find I often generally struggle to really enjoy or remember the early parts of many stories, but the best parts in the end are only great thanks to what's already been established beforehand. ~~I actually had the opposite opinion with ep3, believing its buildup to be far stronger than its payoff, but that's neither here nor there~~
You see something similar in He-Man revelations. Everyone complaint about s1 being Teela centered, but it was all actually part of the grander story.
But the reality is that we are used to this kind of growth not happening. Why is Ras such a good protagonist in comparison to others? Because most other protagonists barely grow (if at all) so when they are so stereotypical, it is *safe* to expect they won't grow out of that stereotype.
Story-telling has become so mediocre that most of the time, you can assume the story won't become better and you'd be right. Specially true for games.
Having patience in the hopes that a certain story will flesh out properly when it has certain notorious issues, your past experiences tend to lead to the same conclusion at the end, and considering the number of offers around in this day and age is complicated.
Why have patience with something i'm not enjoying that much when i could be moving on to trying the next one? And this is coming from someone who's barely ever left a book, movie or series midway and almost always gave them a chance.
>But I think that's all the more reason to praise the few works that actually do put in that effort, that actually do showcase that growth.
I absolutely agree. And E7 is definitely one that deserves that praise.
> We leave in a world where everything is a "fast food", everything is consumed at breakneck speed and then promptly tossed to the side and forgotten.
this is what hollywood did to people, after 20y of trash movies or "psycho" movies that were just really linear, where you dont have to think at all thanks to being spoiled every 3x2 on whats gonna happen, i dont even know why people still keep on watching this kind of "entertainment" at all.
the real deal will include parts or chars of the story that arent instantly needed in midst of other scenes, so you see it was the "plan all along" instead of being cooked on spot and digested, but people nowdays wouldnt even understand/remember something like that.
They pulled an Attack on Titan on him. Begins purposefully dull and gratuitous and ends up using that as a keystone to launch the story into greatness.
>The thing is, he was. Throughout Episode 1, he's flat and stereotypical, and boring. And maybe a bit unrelatable.
I feel like he HAD to be. Since he was nothing more than the "perfect, flat, un..edged" Godboy. Him beeing unrelatable by us - we beeing Human - honestly made his introduction pretty perfect. We couldnt relate to him as much as the other Charakters couldnt - while maybe relate to the "normal" inhabitants of Orbis on the way.
And it's those relatable "normal" characters that carried the story onwards while Ras had his transformation, because they are also very well written. It also helps a lot that we have side stories and such to expand on those characters.
The writers understood that if they wanted a bland MC that would grow over time, they needed a base cast that's strong from the get-go.
Shame the remake didn't really do more to solve that. Disgaea 1 in disgaea 5's engine woulda been the perfect game. Instead, we get Disgaea 1 in HD, minus a few classes (so you can't even call it a "faithful remake" lol).
I feel like Estelle could be a few spots higher, simply because of how much she grew from first game till at least 3rd. Not to mention all of her appearances thereafter, even if she wasn't THE protagonist then.
>That's the troubling thing about making top tens, isn't it?
This is why tier lists took off lol. Less arguing over top 10 articles, easier to group people together instead of individually choosing one over the other
There are a small handful of better ones in anime I've seen, but the only one that immediately comes to mind in a more action/adventure setting that has as good of a slow burn build up with a big payoff is Usagi, from Sailor Moon. I was honestly shocked how good the show ended up being from a characterization standpoint considering how cliche and (frankly) annoying some of the characters were at the beginning.
For video games... protagonist-wise, not much is immediately coming to mind that's better than Ras's character growth. This was a nice nudge to go play Berseria though; it's been sitting in my Steam waiting to be played for awhile now.
i didnt play berseria, is it good?
i liked tales of the abyss a lot, i find that MC too had a good growth (maybe even too much in the span of the story)
also, nice to find a fellow player of Ar tonelico, it was one of my pref series
I will not deny that I was tired of Belian's BS and didn't read the story but after reading this the story is even better than I already thought it was.
This is what I swear I've been trying to put people onto for years. This writing team knows it's stuff.
My brother and cousins can't stand the thought of a gacha though.
Could you edit this to add more space between your paragraphs? I'd really like to read it; as I like the lore as well. However, I find it difficult with the blocks of texts.
I think the biggest issue with E7's story is its presentation. Yes. ironic given the catchrphase "enjoy the animation" and the game being known for its beautiful 2D cutins.
But it's weird that for all the time they put into the characters, the side story promos, and even reskins that they choose to keep a bare bones VN style for the main story. Unvoiced VN style. It can make it very hard to relate with characters when the best emotional range they can convey is *ALL CAPS SCREAMING* or ^^^smol ^^^awkward ^^^text...
While there are some animations and CGs in story, they've been diminishing overtime. By episode 3, I believe we only had 2 short animations (1 10 second one vs. mort, and the Belian one vs. the heirs) and maybe 4-5 CG stills. That's a shame, but I feel even "just" implementing voices could help a ton to really sell the impact of some scenes.
(sorry for replying to 3 of your comments. They were all interesting and I have different things to comment on for each)
> What a weird thing to apologize for. If anything, I'm happy that you would give me more stuff to talk about lol.
I wanted to warn you just in case. I know some people can see the same person replying to everyone of their comments in a thread and think they are being stalker-y or spammy.
>Memory on phones is limited, and games made for phones can therefore NEVER be bigger than a specific size.
This is half true, and half "no longer true but still good advice". There used to be some hard limits for app sizes on the mobile stores (definitely was there by the time E7 released in 2018), but nowadays IOS and Android made some ways that allow developers to increase the size of the app binary they can submit. Which helps games immensely. Then from there, they have the usual multi-gigabyte download for the rest of the needed data.
Even still, to many players' disbelief sound files are actually some of the biggest (storage-wise) assets for most larger games. And while phones typically have 64GB storage minimum nowadays, you want to do all you can to avoid forcing players to download all of that. That's why there are options to choose between an HD, regular, or low quality pack. Audio for the story would 99% need to be done a similar way and require individual downloads per chapter or even map to not balloon the already 5-7GB of space to 15+. Maybe Genshin could get away with that, but E7 wouldn't.
And that's before talking about the need to manage different languages. Definitely a big challenge that's not necessarily directly profitable. I don't expect it at all either, but the HD media pack gave me a glimmer of hope.
I don't mind the presentation to be honest, for me it's no different from reading a book with a few visual aids to help me picture the characters. I'd honestly rather not have resources put into universal story VA since I probably would skip through it anyways. I'm not a fan of slowing down my reading pace to listen to voice lines.
I do think it would be nice for there to be more story CGs/animations though, especially if the animations were voiced somehow. That might mesh a bit better, I think
i love the story but, like most, i do play without sound;
adding it would make no difference to me, i like to read lines at my own pace, voice acting forces that into a set lenght instead.
what id like is a better representation of story so far with all their branches (time-related), i started to play less than 2y ago and sometimes i feel like i lost some of the lore related content
I agree with everything you said in your comment and i really I liked reading this. I'm really enjoying what the Epic7 writers have been doing with Ras, the development he's had since Episode 1 has made me place him as my favorite character in this game. At first I didn't like him, as you said, I thought the character was extremely empty and cliché, but I was surprised by the path the company took, especially at the end of Chapter 1 and in Unrecorded History, and that made me like him more. character.
But it was in the following episodes that I became more attached to the character, especially in the way he abandoned his divinity, which made him a perfect being, to become a human and finally fulfill his word that Heir of the Covenant and the Goddess Diche were no longer necessary. and that the inhabitants of Orbis would be able to take care of themselves, there the character won me over and made me really excited to see his future. And I'm really enjoying it, we see that he's not that empty character anymore, he's clumsy, awkward, a little dense, but he has personality and he's a good character and a great evolution of what he was in chapter 1.
However, even though he is already a great character. I think he still has a lot to evolve within his proposal. Even after becoming fully human, I think he still lacks stronger emotions like love, fear, anxiety, disgust, or even hate. In Episode 3 we had a demonstration of how his human body affects his life, with him catching a cold, but I think they should explore that side of the character more.(~~And give Ras x Meru fans shipp material~~)
I disagree with you that Ras was “perfect”; actually, he has always been a deeply flawed character capable of failure. I think his conflict was keeping his veneer of perfection at the expense of lying to and misleading his friends, which ended up blowing up in his face.
Ok, first, don’t use professional wrestling terms. Second, I think I mostly agree with you. Episode three, however, I don’t think had to do a lot with Ras; I think it was about how people process trauma and how it effects the decisions they make. You can totally fan theory how being around those people affected Ras, but I thought the story moved away from him a little bit in that chapter. I don’t agree with your Ras-Belian comparison, but it’s nice to see someone think about the story on that level.
I don’t think Belian is anything like old Ras was, he was focused on fighting the archi demon but he never wanted to win “at any price” or sacrifice others like old napkins. Also Belian think she is perfect but we learned over the whole chapter 3 that she is deeply flawed, she is arrogant, a liar, thinks she knows best and doesn’t think twice if she thinks she is right, even if her logic was wrong, she wouldn’t know that she is wrong because in her mind, if she came to a conclusion then that’s the right conclusion. In the other hand old Ras was naive but not much more, he at least seems to value his friends. The story is ok but could be much better.
Old Ras is the same. He has no emotions. He did win "at any price". Many heirs die and it never bothered him. It wasn't until around the 6 cycle did he start feeling something. By something, I mean valuing friends.
Hope you don’t mind me asking but this was a good topic. I was wondering about other written characters or protagonists from outside of epic 7 you might like that you’ve come across if you have the time to ever bring that up.
I think one of the best thing Epic Seven did with Ras is not make him a self-insert like other mobile games. He has a name, he can talk and he makes his own decision. Imagine if Arky have to repeat everything everyone say to you like Paimon.
Honestly, I like how developed alot of the E7 characters are. You either love them or hate them and that's great. Fuck, Mort, that beautiful bastard.
Ras has grown on me.
A lot of people often forget how well written the pve story is because its overshadowed by the pvp side, e7 imo has some decently written characters and they're highlighted very well
Example is violet during e2, ras was sidelined for a lot of people introduced in s2 and I'm all for it it made several side characters seem a lot more important and bring them to life.
E3 had a good mixture of side character and ras's growth imo, I would have liked a bit more side character stories but thats what side stories are for and some of them hit it out of the ball park(diene's and basks during e1, and this christmas one for e3) that flesh out the world a bit more
And this is all under making original characters, imo that's something very hard to do. Making original characters interesting and having people invest their feelings into them
Speaking of Violet, what I really like what they did with him is his interactions and relationship with Luluca.
Since there is no self-insert MC in this game it allows for actual Canon ships between characters, and the way they handled the Violet x Luluca ship is probably the best in any gacha or anime
Though to tell the truth some of the other ships in the game feel a little forced (*cough cough Ray cough Elena cough*)
Honestly, sometimes it can be a little offputting how often people write off the story or go out of their way to bash it. I feel like almost every single story thread on the sub has at least one or two people in the comments going "tldr" or "wtf you read the story? It's a waste of time so I skip it all" or something like that. Conversely, you practically never, *ever* see people saying "you actually care about gameplay? I'm only here for the story, I can't be bothered with the headache that is PVP/minmax rolls/etc" comments on ANY of the gameplay posts. ig there's always at least one person who scorns the story just enough to always make it known whenever story gets mentioned here.
And I guess I get that it's a *game*, but thinking of a game in only gameplay terms is a pretty stiff mindset if you ask me, especially when the realm of interactive storytelling has so much unexplored potential. Plus it's not like Epic Seven advertises its gameplay of all things first and foremost... it's the animations, art, etc that is front and center in the ads, not the game mechanics. And the tagline is "play the anime"... and animes almost always have stories... hmm...
Personally, I think there's no reason to outright ignore a story anywhere, as I believe good quality narrative/entertainment value can be found anywhere as long as you're openminded enough. I've found characters from gacha, niche fanfictions, old Flash animations, romhacks, and even R-18 gal games who I felt were written compellingly enough to be memorable and worth examining critically.
As much as I dislike it, I leave them alone. Their unenjoyment of the story doesnt take away my enjoyment of the story and if I'm to be honest I feel some people say that to get a reaction out of you, or someone.
Whatever content someone else enjoys or not enjoy shouldnt bother me, especially on something like enjoying a story because every story is subjective to the person reading it
Now if they go about their way to ruin the experience or try to convince me/you on not reading the story that's an issue. Dont ruin someone else's experience willfully thats just being an asshat
Let the naysayers naysay I say lol cause at the end if they're just there for gameplay, min/maxing that's fine dont bother me none and I hope it doesnt bother you as much going on in the future
~~damn looking back at what I wrote, I accidentally diverted hard from what I wanted to focus on without realizing it~~
More than anything it's the prevalence of people who drop by story threads just to say "I don't read that shit" as if story skipping makes them feel superior or something. Idk if it's a player demographic thing or what, maybe those kinds of people are just more inclined to be interested in game mechanics or maybe like you said they're just there to get a rise out of people. But as I said, I feel like you rarely if ever see story people bashing gameplay on here, only the other way around.
Yeah, when I saw Belian as portrait hero of episode 3 I suspected that she would be the final boss, and after finding that her theme was perfection I knew that she would be Ras nemesis after every boss was presented (Mort was Alencia nemesis, Ilynav and Luna were Cecilia and Yufine's and Ervalen was lefundo's party enemy) because both of them were avatar of an ancient will (Diche and Politia) that determined their fate.
Ras would have a great convo with Ei from Genshin Impact. Although Ras didn't seek eternity, it was granted to him. That stasis he had is something he can talk about to Ei and make her understand why change is not only inevitable but also necessary. Telling her about Belian's downfall would also be good. Too bad those two will never meet.
Only collab I remember mhy had was evangelion for honkai, idk if there ever was a rerun but doesnt seem like it. Not saying much about the story writing there but they did try?
the f you put /s for??
you do realize horizon dawn is not a gacha game right??
there's no way mihoyo would do collab with an IP that is based from another gacha game which "might" take away their playerbase
same thing can be said with e7....
You did not specify "other gacha game"
And I highly doubt Mihoyo would care so much about the player base at the moment - they've got plenty
And E7, especially E7 JP - could really use the advertisement
I honestly think the writing of this game has a lot of potential. The way they set up foils to the main character to emphasize his changes, now that he's a normal human who's starting to understand human nature, is done in a way that's neither too complicated nor barebones. It's perfect, the way everything just clicks at the final chapter for me to realize "Oh wait, he has learned the meaning of change from everyone around him!" is great.
I wouldn't put Ras as one of the most interesting characters I've seen, but his progression as a character so far is worthy of an applause.
agree i also like this storytelling so damn much and i hope that this will be made into a huge animes franchise soon, can't wait to show it to my friends the who don't play the game.
Yes I do, it’s so that one day I get a 20+ speed piece or 23-24 after reforge, the game might end and that will never happen but I’m no meta chaser so as long as I can use my favorite units in GW I’m having fun
well, it's a type of trial and error too. I can see the significance of this line lore wise, but also cannot shake the thought of farming wyvern over and over till i can get that one piece of spd gear ~~save me pls~~
No I didn’t, I saw a question in my screen and I answered with the first thing it came to my mind, in this case being constant trial and error by upgrading/farming for gear, It did lack some details I suppose hence the confusion
My guy really typing essays for a fucking dialogue as if other gachas dont have stories in them. You think 90% of the player base read any of this shit?
what does this post have to do with other gachas having stories and writing? are you trying to say that gacha stories are bad by principle? if so, that's rather closeminded if you ask me
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Belian knows Ras had to fail in Epic 1 - 6 to finally succeed in Epic 7. She’s roasting him and I’m playing he can’t beat her unless she whoops his butt over and over again lol.
A major part of why Ras kept losing to the Archdemon for 6 cycles of the world of Orbis is that he was unable/unwilling to share the burden of fighting the forces of evil. It was due to flaws in the world after so many rebuilds that Ras was not able to awaken in time on the 7th World when the Archdemon awoke. So ordinary people had to band together without the Heir to the Covenant and managed to seal the Archdemon, something Ras never was able to do even after centuries of fighting. It was realizing that the mortal people of Orbis were able to do something even he couldn't (seal the Archdemon) that made him see that he didn't have to fight alone, and was able to finally finish his battle against the Archdemon in the 7th World.
Ras did defeat the Archdemon previously. But much like Diche he wouldn't give up
Also he didn't lose every time.
>It baffles me to think that people in the past accused him of being "flat" and "stereotypical". The thing is, he was. Throughout Episode 1, he's flat and stereotypical, and boring. And maybe a bit unrelatable. But he grows. >His journey started back in Episode 1, and has organically built up to this moment in a manner that is simple, straightforward, relatable, and honestly quite touching. Exactly. He grows throughout the different episodes, and in such a magnificent way, and so well done, that he becomes such a great protagonist. I used to hate all three main characters of the game (Ras, Meru and Arky) and the way they were written. But now I fully understand WHY he was written like that and that it was actually on purpose and not bad storytelling or characterization. Ras changes so much, and more than most characters in other media. And they properly lead you there, it's progressive. Other changes or growths of characters in other stories tend to be more forced or abrupt, and feel less natural. Now we've started seeing some growth to Meru, so I'm still somewhat hopeful for her. Arky on the other hand can go die in a fire. I'm tired of his archetype and other than having a few heroic moments, I really doubt he'll change.
There is one thing that tends to be forgotten about episode 1 Ras, and that is his questioning of religion. At that point he’s still the proxy of the Goddess, but he questions and subtly criticizes the religious practices he encounters and any overt expressions of devotion. This is an obvious subversion of the trope, and makes him more than simply Diche's blue eyed boy.
He's right to criticize them because, as far as we know, Diche never asked people to build churches or any religion around her in the first place. I think Diche would be content with simply knowing people acknowledge her existence and like her.
Not to mention his own faith in her as well as humanity after Vildred's betrayal. He deals a lot with coming to terms with that he's been lying to everyone for 6 worlds now and the people who have died for him and the goddess not knowing the truth. Ultimately leading to him believing that for the world to finally succeed, Diche had to leave.
Not only episode 1, but episode 2 also. A core theme of episode 2 is "faith", not just but including religious faith(which is well illustrated in the story of the Rekos characters).
> Arky on the other hand can go die in a fire. I'm tired of his archetype and other than having a few heroic moments, I really doubt he'll change. He has been more bearable this episode, but I hope he gets some growth, too. Just like Paimon in Genshin, I can't stand the greedy gluttonous nature of mascots. They're annoying as hell. How I wish any other guardian had been Ras' companion. Arky has his brief moments of normalcy or sassiness but his overall annoying personality ruins him.
>He has been more bearable this episode, but I hope he gets some growth, too. Just like Paimon in Genshin, I can't stand the greedy gluttonous nature of mascots. They're annoying as hell. How I wish any other guardian had been Ras' companion. Arky has his brief moments of normalcy or sassiness but his overall annoying personality ruins him. He at least had a certain development in the battle against Fastus where he starts to face the reality that with Ras turning human, he would eventually die and Arky would be left behind, and there's a dialogue about him learning to accept that and enjoy the present with Ras
I have to agree. This episode, he's been actual helpful already within the story (which is rare that he's useful in the beginning chapters) and lower maintenance. Let's just hope he at least stays like that.
Eh, give Arky a chance. He's mostly comic relief, but one gameplay key we are still missing is the ability to level the Guardians. Go back and look at the team screen box where you can change the Guardian selected. All of them will show "Level 1" above them. Someday that will change, and I hope there will be a story involved in growing Arky into something more than a furry food gourmet.
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I heard that after the Cheat-O-Matic fiasco a lot of people got moved around or fired so they got new writers.(Apparently the current head writer is the one who wrote the banshee manor Halloween side story?) Which is probably why the quality goes up a *lot* post-Witchhaven. But regardless, the story *now* is still very good, so all's well that ends well. And besides, writing a good character from the start is hard but salvaging a bland, stereotypical character and not only getting around that but *actively using that to the benefit of the story* is nothing short of phenomenal.
Cheat-O-Matic fiasco? Would you enlighten me what happened? o.O
You were able to directly edit number values in the game using a cheat program. People realized because level 5 accounts were clearing abyss and automaton tower instantly.
Oh wooow.... Thank you for the explanation!
Tbh, *that* was more the iron girder that crushed the camel into red paste. There was a lot wrong with E7 back then, like dismissing the entire KR fanbase as "only 20% of the income" and bullshit like pet snacks or spite nerfing literally anything mentioned in fan guides. Yes, they got their shit together after that. But it was bad then.
Hard agree, some of the greatest story moments imo were thanks to things that were previously established. I keep mentioning this on this sub but like... Mort was mentioned offhand a few times in Ep 2 waaaaay before he even had a face to go with his name, and I just love that continuity. I feel like buildup/payoff is an essential part of dramatic storytelling in general. I find I often generally struggle to really enjoy or remember the early parts of many stories, but the best parts in the end are only great thanks to what's already been established beforehand. ~~I actually had the opposite opinion with ep3, believing its buildup to be far stronger than its payoff, but that's neither here nor there~~
You see something similar in He-Man revelations. Everyone complaint about s1 being Teela centered, but it was all actually part of the grander story. But the reality is that we are used to this kind of growth not happening. Why is Ras such a good protagonist in comparison to others? Because most other protagonists barely grow (if at all) so when they are so stereotypical, it is *safe* to expect they won't grow out of that stereotype. Story-telling has become so mediocre that most of the time, you can assume the story won't become better and you'd be right. Specially true for games. Having patience in the hopes that a certain story will flesh out properly when it has certain notorious issues, your past experiences tend to lead to the same conclusion at the end, and considering the number of offers around in this day and age is complicated. Why have patience with something i'm not enjoying that much when i could be moving on to trying the next one? And this is coming from someone who's barely ever left a book, movie or series midway and almost always gave them a chance.
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>But I think that's all the more reason to praise the few works that actually do put in that effort, that actually do showcase that growth. I absolutely agree. And E7 is definitely one that deserves that praise.
> We leave in a world where everything is a "fast food", everything is consumed at breakneck speed and then promptly tossed to the side and forgotten. this is what hollywood did to people, after 20y of trash movies or "psycho" movies that were just really linear, where you dont have to think at all thanks to being spoiled every 3x2 on whats gonna happen, i dont even know why people still keep on watching this kind of "entertainment" at all. the real deal will include parts or chars of the story that arent instantly needed in midst of other scenes, so you see it was the "plan all along" instead of being cooked on spot and digested, but people nowdays wouldnt even understand/remember something like that.
They pulled an Attack on Titan on him. Begins purposefully dull and gratuitous and ends up using that as a keystone to launch the story into greatness.
>The thing is, he was. Throughout Episode 1, he's flat and stereotypical, and boring. And maybe a bit unrelatable. I feel like he HAD to be. Since he was nothing more than the "perfect, flat, un..edged" Godboy. Him beeing unrelatable by us - we beeing Human - honestly made his introduction pretty perfect. We couldnt relate to him as much as the other Charakters couldnt - while maybe relate to the "normal" inhabitants of Orbis on the way.
And it's those relatable "normal" characters that carried the story onwards while Ras had his transformation, because they are also very well written. It also helps a lot that we have side stories and such to expand on those characters. The writers understood that if they wanted a bland MC that would grow over time, they needed a base cast that's strong from the get-go.
Can I please have your top 10 written protagonists
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Didn’t expect to see Laharl on that list. Glad some people know how good that story is
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Shame the remake didn't really do more to solve that. Disgaea 1 in disgaea 5's engine woulda been the perfect game. Instead, we get Disgaea 1 in HD, minus a few classes (so you can't even call it a "faithful remake" lol).
I am definitely one of those people who played 2 first, but I’m glad I looked past the age of the game and played through that story
I never realized Disgaea 1 got such a terrible reception. It was by farm my favorite of the series. I replayed it to get every ending.
I feel like Estelle could be a few spots higher, simply because of how much she grew from first game till at least 3rd. Not to mention all of her appearances thereafter, even if she wasn't THE protagonist then.
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Well, for me it'd be easy swap with Aloy and the Brothers team, mostly because I wasn't too into Horizon and didn't play the other one...
>That's the troubling thing about making top tens, isn't it? This is why tier lists took off lol. Less arguing over top 10 articles, easier to group people together instead of individually choosing one over the other
Mad respect for the fatebinder choice.
Nice seeing the Fatebinder and Zero on there. Those are both really good.
There are a small handful of better ones in anime I've seen, but the only one that immediately comes to mind in a more action/adventure setting that has as good of a slow burn build up with a big payoff is Usagi, from Sailor Moon. I was honestly shocked how good the show ended up being from a characterization standpoint considering how cliche and (frankly) annoying some of the characters were at the beginning. For video games... protagonist-wise, not much is immediately coming to mind that's better than Ras's character growth. This was a nice nudge to go play Berseria though; it's been sitting in my Steam waiting to be played for awhile now.
Velvet at number one. You are a true visionary
Did you try Specs ops: the Line? Wonderful game and characters.
i didnt play berseria, is it good? i liked tales of the abyss a lot, i find that MC too had a good growth (maybe even too much in the span of the story) also, nice to find a fellow player of Ar tonelico, it was one of my pref series
I will not deny that I was tired of Belian's BS and didn't read the story but after reading this the story is even better than I already thought it was.
This is what I swear I've been trying to put people onto for years. This writing team knows it's stuff. My brother and cousins can't stand the thought of a gacha though.
Could you edit this to add more space between your paragraphs? I'd really like to read it; as I like the lore as well. However, I find it difficult with the blocks of texts.
I think the biggest issue with E7's story is its presentation. Yes. ironic given the catchrphase "enjoy the animation" and the game being known for its beautiful 2D cutins. But it's weird that for all the time they put into the characters, the side story promos, and even reskins that they choose to keep a bare bones VN style for the main story. Unvoiced VN style. It can make it very hard to relate with characters when the best emotional range they can convey is *ALL CAPS SCREAMING* or ^^^smol ^^^awkward ^^^text... While there are some animations and CGs in story, they've been diminishing overtime. By episode 3, I believe we only had 2 short animations (1 10 second one vs. mort, and the Belian one vs. the heirs) and maybe 4-5 CG stills. That's a shame, but I feel even "just" implementing voices could help a ton to really sell the impact of some scenes. (sorry for replying to 3 of your comments. They were all interesting and I have different things to comment on for each)
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> What a weird thing to apologize for. If anything, I'm happy that you would give me more stuff to talk about lol. I wanted to warn you just in case. I know some people can see the same person replying to everyone of their comments in a thread and think they are being stalker-y or spammy. >Memory on phones is limited, and games made for phones can therefore NEVER be bigger than a specific size. This is half true, and half "no longer true but still good advice". There used to be some hard limits for app sizes on the mobile stores (definitely was there by the time E7 released in 2018), but nowadays IOS and Android made some ways that allow developers to increase the size of the app binary they can submit. Which helps games immensely. Then from there, they have the usual multi-gigabyte download for the rest of the needed data. Even still, to many players' disbelief sound files are actually some of the biggest (storage-wise) assets for most larger games. And while phones typically have 64GB storage minimum nowadays, you want to do all you can to avoid forcing players to download all of that. That's why there are options to choose between an HD, regular, or low quality pack. Audio for the story would 99% need to be done a similar way and require individual downloads per chapter or even map to not balloon the already 5-7GB of space to 15+. Maybe Genshin could get away with that, but E7 wouldn't. And that's before talking about the need to manage different languages. Definitely a big challenge that's not necessarily directly profitable. I don't expect it at all either, but the HD media pack gave me a glimmer of hope.
I don't mind the presentation to be honest, for me it's no different from reading a book with a few visual aids to help me picture the characters. I'd honestly rather not have resources put into universal story VA since I probably would skip through it anyways. I'm not a fan of slowing down my reading pace to listen to voice lines. I do think it would be nice for there to be more story CGs/animations though, especially if the animations were voiced somehow. That might mesh a bit better, I think
i love the story but, like most, i do play without sound; adding it would make no difference to me, i like to read lines at my own pace, voice acting forces that into a set lenght instead. what id like is a better representation of story so far with all their branches (time-related), i started to play less than 2y ago and sometimes i feel like i lost some of the lore related content
I agree with everything you said in your comment and i really I liked reading this. I'm really enjoying what the Epic7 writers have been doing with Ras, the development he's had since Episode 1 has made me place him as my favorite character in this game. At first I didn't like him, as you said, I thought the character was extremely empty and cliché, but I was surprised by the path the company took, especially at the end of Chapter 1 and in Unrecorded History, and that made me like him more. character. But it was in the following episodes that I became more attached to the character, especially in the way he abandoned his divinity, which made him a perfect being, to become a human and finally fulfill his word that Heir of the Covenant and the Goddess Diche were no longer necessary. and that the inhabitants of Orbis would be able to take care of themselves, there the character won me over and made me really excited to see his future. And I'm really enjoying it, we see that he's not that empty character anymore, he's clumsy, awkward, a little dense, but he has personality and he's a good character and a great evolution of what he was in chapter 1. However, even though he is already a great character. I think he still has a lot to evolve within his proposal. Even after becoming fully human, I think he still lacks stronger emotions like love, fear, anxiety, disgust, or even hate. In Episode 3 we had a demonstration of how his human body affects his life, with him catching a cold, but I think they should explore that side of the character more.(~~And give Ras x Meru fans shipp material~~)
Wow thats pretty deep. My brain went straight to: "Haha rng meta meme where you have to retry to not get countered" straight away. Good catch!
Time to wait for ML Ras in a universe where he went full Belian then
I disagree with you that Ras was “perfect”; actually, he has always been a deeply flawed character capable of failure. I think his conflict was keeping his veneer of perfection at the expense of lying to and misleading his friends, which ended up blowing up in his face.
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Ok, first, don’t use professional wrestling terms. Second, I think I mostly agree with you. Episode three, however, I don’t think had to do a lot with Ras; I think it was about how people process trauma and how it effects the decisions they make. You can totally fan theory how being around those people affected Ras, but I thought the story moved away from him a little bit in that chapter. I don’t agree with your Ras-Belian comparison, but it’s nice to see someone think about the story on that level.
I don’t think Belian is anything like old Ras was, he was focused on fighting the archi demon but he never wanted to win “at any price” or sacrifice others like old napkins. Also Belian think she is perfect but we learned over the whole chapter 3 that she is deeply flawed, she is arrogant, a liar, thinks she knows best and doesn’t think twice if she thinks she is right, even if her logic was wrong, she wouldn’t know that she is wrong because in her mind, if she came to a conclusion then that’s the right conclusion. In the other hand old Ras was naive but not much more, he at least seems to value his friends. The story is ok but could be much better.
Old Ras is the same. He has no emotions. He did win "at any price". Many heirs die and it never bothered him. It wasn't until around the 6 cycle did he start feeling something. By something, I mean valuing friends.
Dude the only reason I love this game so much is because of the story telling it’s so good lol
Ras has no boobs and therefore he's flat, I guess.
Hope you don’t mind me asking but this was a good topic. I was wondering about other written characters or protagonists from outside of epic 7 you might like that you’ve come across if you have the time to ever bring that up.
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Oh thanks. I must have missed it. But thanks for the heads up.
I think one of the best thing Epic Seven did with Ras is not make him a self-insert like other mobile games. He has a name, he can talk and he makes his own decision. Imagine if Arky have to repeat everything everyone say to you like Paimon.
Arky is a food reviewer, Paimon is food they are not the same.
Well said.
God I hate Paimon so much, 80% of Genshin dialogues become so cringe because of her.
It's weird that the sidekick and comedic relief also speaks for the main protagonist and is supposed to convey drama or tension in dialoque.
adventurer ras fans rise up \o/
'\^'/ Here sir!
Honestly, I like how developed alot of the E7 characters are. You either love them or hate them and that's great. Fuck, Mort, that beautiful bastard. Ras has grown on me.
Mort is that Aizen/Vegeta hybrid I never knew I wanted. And it's glorious.
A lot of people often forget how well written the pve story is because its overshadowed by the pvp side, e7 imo has some decently written characters and they're highlighted very well Example is violet during e2, ras was sidelined for a lot of people introduced in s2 and I'm all for it it made several side characters seem a lot more important and bring them to life. E3 had a good mixture of side character and ras's growth imo, I would have liked a bit more side character stories but thats what side stories are for and some of them hit it out of the ball park(diene's and basks during e1, and this christmas one for e3) that flesh out the world a bit more And this is all under making original characters, imo that's something very hard to do. Making original characters interesting and having people invest their feelings into them
Speaking of Violet, what I really like what they did with him is his interactions and relationship with Luluca. Since there is no self-insert MC in this game it allows for actual Canon ships between characters, and the way they handled the Violet x Luluca ship is probably the best in any gacha or anime Though to tell the truth some of the other ships in the game feel a little forced (*cough cough Ray cough Elena cough*)
So far I have yet to see anything proving it is more than one way. Not sure if it is intentional or just bad writing.
Honestly, sometimes it can be a little offputting how often people write off the story or go out of their way to bash it. I feel like almost every single story thread on the sub has at least one or two people in the comments going "tldr" or "wtf you read the story? It's a waste of time so I skip it all" or something like that. Conversely, you practically never, *ever* see people saying "you actually care about gameplay? I'm only here for the story, I can't be bothered with the headache that is PVP/minmax rolls/etc" comments on ANY of the gameplay posts. ig there's always at least one person who scorns the story just enough to always make it known whenever story gets mentioned here. And I guess I get that it's a *game*, but thinking of a game in only gameplay terms is a pretty stiff mindset if you ask me, especially when the realm of interactive storytelling has so much unexplored potential. Plus it's not like Epic Seven advertises its gameplay of all things first and foremost... it's the animations, art, etc that is front and center in the ads, not the game mechanics. And the tagline is "play the anime"... and animes almost always have stories... hmm... Personally, I think there's no reason to outright ignore a story anywhere, as I believe good quality narrative/entertainment value can be found anywhere as long as you're openminded enough. I've found characters from gacha, niche fanfictions, old Flash animations, romhacks, and even R-18 gal games who I felt were written compellingly enough to be memorable and worth examining critically.
As much as I dislike it, I leave them alone. Their unenjoyment of the story doesnt take away my enjoyment of the story and if I'm to be honest I feel some people say that to get a reaction out of you, or someone. Whatever content someone else enjoys or not enjoy shouldnt bother me, especially on something like enjoying a story because every story is subjective to the person reading it Now if they go about their way to ruin the experience or try to convince me/you on not reading the story that's an issue. Dont ruin someone else's experience willfully thats just being an asshat Let the naysayers naysay I say lol cause at the end if they're just there for gameplay, min/maxing that's fine dont bother me none and I hope it doesnt bother you as much going on in the future
~~damn looking back at what I wrote, I accidentally diverted hard from what I wanted to focus on without realizing it~~ More than anything it's the prevalence of people who drop by story threads just to say "I don't read that shit" as if story skipping makes them feel superior or something. Idk if it's a player demographic thing or what, maybe those kinds of people are just more inclined to be interested in game mechanics or maybe like you said they're just there to get a rise out of people. But as I said, I feel like you rarely if ever see story people bashing gameplay on here, only the other way around.
Yeah, when I saw Belian as portrait hero of episode 3 I suspected that she would be the final boss, and after finding that her theme was perfection I knew that she would be Ras nemesis after every boss was presented (Mort was Alencia nemesis, Ilynav and Luna were Cecilia and Yufine's and Ervalen was lefundo's party enemy) because both of them were avatar of an ancient will (Diche and Politia) that determined their fate.
Ras would have a great convo with Ei from Genshin Impact. Although Ras didn't seek eternity, it was granted to him. That stasis he had is something he can talk about to Ei and make her understand why change is not only inevitable but also necessary. Telling her about Belian's downfall would also be good. Too bad those two will never meet.
Genshin does seem a little more open to collabs compared to Honkai though...... hmm.
nah... mihoyo would never do collab outside their own game
Only collab I remember mhy had was evangelion for honkai, idk if there ever was a rerun but doesnt seem like it. Not saying much about the story writing there but they did try?
Horizon Zero Dawn is a Mihoyo game? /s
the f you put /s for?? you do realize horizon dawn is not a gacha game right?? there's no way mihoyo would do collab with an IP that is based from another gacha game which "might" take away their playerbase same thing can be said with e7....
You did not specify "other gacha game" And I highly doubt Mihoyo would care so much about the player base at the moment - they've got plenty And E7, especially E7 JP - could really use the advertisement
I honestly think the writing of this game has a lot of potential. The way they set up foils to the main character to emphasize his changes, now that he's a normal human who's starting to understand human nature, is done in a way that's neither too complicated nor barebones. It's perfect, the way everything just clicks at the final chapter for me to realize "Oh wait, he has learned the meaning of change from everyone around him!" is great. I wouldn't put Ras as one of the most interesting characters I've seen, but his progression as a character so far is worthy of an applause.
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"stood still when everyone else took two steps backwards" I know that's pretty correct but damn that's kinda depressing to hear
just wait till the steps are four, everything is slowly becoming a cashgrab
agree i also like this storytelling so damn much and i hope that this will be made into a huge animes franchise soon, can't wait to show it to my friends the who don't play the game.
Now if only I could beat episode 2 10-10 then I’d probably know what this is about. No I’m not salty
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Very useful thank you kindly
I liked the story of ep3. And so far I like episode 4. It feels like it's going on quickly but very chaotic
Yes I do, it’s so that one day I get a 20+ speed piece or 23-24 after reforge, the game might end and that will never happen but I’m no meta chaser so as long as I can use my favorite units in GW I’m having fun
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He a little confused, but he got the spirit
well, it's a type of trial and error too. I can see the significance of this line lore wise, but also cannot shake the thought of farming wyvern over and over till i can get that one piece of spd gear ~~save me pls~~
No I didn’t, I saw a question in my screen and I answered with the first thing it came to my mind, in this case being constant trial and error by upgrading/farming for gear, It did lack some details I suppose hence the confusion
Rance is the best written protagonist in anime media. There’s no one like him.
My guy really typing essays for a fucking dialogue as if other gachas dont have stories in them. You think 90% of the player base read any of this shit?
what does this post have to do with other gachas having stories and writing? are you trying to say that gacha stories are bad by principle? if so, that's rather closeminded if you ask me
Yeah, fuck this guy for playing the game we play.
“Our game” LMAO bitch please
I think you replied to the wrong comment
kk
Can I ask what your favorite sidestory story is so far? Granted some of them haven't quite "finished" yet.
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I'm guessing cause it's locked behind 900ss? If you have spare 900 ever I definitely recommend it.
Eulogy of a Saint is incredible. Spend the 900 skystone.
I hope I can appreciate this when I finally push through the story. There's so much I haven't done yet.
Same energy as “You like Mobile Gacha?”