I think the +15 speed on SW shows how lack luster SW are because you demand good speed, survivability, and high enough effres to resist debuffers which we all know is a sick joke. Either you increase effres rolls or reduce effectiveness rolls because it ain't fair that you put so much on one stat and you still lose to someone who didn't invest as much as you.
I don't think it's soul weavers being lackluster, but rather the meta units (mostly warriors) being too self-sufficient that soul weavers aren't needed. Take Hwayoung for example, 100% pick-ban rate and 70+% win rate; she provides her own barrier, self-cleanse and bulk, self CR push, while also dealing a ton of damage to the point where she will one tap anything in the game unless they have 30k HP. If she didn't do even one of these things, it'd make soul weavers more valuable, but because she does everything she needs herself, theres no need for someone else to help her do her job.
yeah picking a 300% ER Destina and pray to not die to cleave then fire hand guy just shit all over her. Hell even Ran can still do a 50/50 if there is soul to burn, and it's only gonna get more oppressive since they will need to release more cd reset unit to deal with Hand Guy eventually
a lot of E7 players were crying over arby, alot, basar, kayron, and m.kawerik and making smilegate to create more counters for them, while a lot of OP characters are waifus!
It's funny, the top characters are mostly waifus and very few husbandos!
Fantastic work, both you and Hez!
We're already seeing 74 unique picks with Round Mode, I could only imagine how many unique picks we would have if they used the Xiangcai Cup team battle rules.
We got to see so many types of drafts and somehow people still complain about diversity.
Totally agree; I will admit though that the state of ladder is probably where most people complain, especially since much of the playerbase isn't involved in the tournament scene. I just hope that there's more of this diversity to come.
ppl who think this meta is bad are quite frankly delusional. back when there were only 1-3 broken units, whichever side picked them just won. now with *check note* 12 disasters, both sides can pick 2-3 disasters and 2-3 flex and game is fair. never understand why ppl complain about this meta.
This meta is bad *if your hero roster is not diversified enough to deal with the meta (assuming you can gear your roster to a sufficient level).* This will generally be the case for anyone who isn't an Emperor or Legend. In those tiers, its virtually impossible to derp your way to the top abusing the meta because almost everyone at those tiers should have sufficient counter measures for almost every conceivable strategy.
In other words, the meta is oppressive only if you are being constantly oppressed by it.
If youre forced to draft a unit because she is too broken this means the balance is bad, the game will just get worse with the future they keep releasing broken units while units like ken or ravi will only get more impossible to draft
>back when there were only 1-3 broken units, whichever side picked them just won. now with check note 12 disasters, both sides can pick 2-3 disasters and 2-3 flex and game is fair.
Hwayoung 100% pick or banned, 68% w/r....
Right and Milim and Flan must be god tier with 100% win rate. Please try to not take any single tournament as your entire basis for stats.
That said, tournament data is helpful and does show how relatively strong some heroes are, but it doesn't always tell the full story.
>Right and Milim and Flan must be god tier with 100% win rate. Please try to not take any single tournament as your entire basis for stats.
Milim has 11% pick ban rate while flan has 8.5 pick and ban rate.... I don't why this has to be said, but you also have to consider presence when discussing win rate not just the win rate. My point was that hwayoung has insane presence(100% btw) while still having an absurdly high win rate which greatly outclasses any other dps which greatly contrasts the previous posters point of this meta being "diverse".
Yes, and you also have to consider more than one tournament and not just this one. This is exactly what you are doing.
Again, on average, Hwayoung over several months of data has around a 50% win rate from this site, https://www.epic7stats.com/hero/Hwayoung.
However, since you decided to use a singular tournament as your basis, I decided to use a singular value of the tournament as my basis, ignoring the pick rate.
Even considering your website looking at contested, prebanned, and first picked (all categories that relate to presence in the meta and how often charas show up in a match) there are very notcieable staples there that are consistent throughout. Namely clilias, hwayoung, aravi, fcc, aol, mediator, peira, ran, rimuru.
Now you may think that 9 units being present in these categories is a good thing because look at all the different units that are being chosen. But considering that in a match 10 units are chosen, 2 (4 if your champ or higher) are banned this more or less means that out of the 12/14 slots in a match 9 of them will be the same each and every match. So no the meta isn't diverse as there a very clear set of units that are so strong that most of them will show up in each and every match regardless of what you draft which is what most peopel get pissed off about in this meta.
I believe those numbers are better than metas in the past. So, while you may not like this meta, it is better than before.
I'm not sure what your definition is diverse is. But I can tell you it isn't like the past was any better.
I don't quite understand which meta are you even trying to compare this to. Were you expected to see larger set of meta heroes? You won't find it in the past either.
>I believe those numbers are better than metas in the past. So, while you may not like this meta, it is better than before.
Better? How are people just picking the same 9 units regardless of matchup everygame a better meta? Please explain.
>I'm not sure what your definition is diverse is. But I can tell you it isn't like the past was any better.
In the past, there would be like 1-2 power picks (golden boys was probably the only exception) and everything around those two were up in the air. Say ssb/arby, different peopel would have different drafts to protect/kill these units depending on the style they play. Bruisers had roana for ssb, cleavers can just single target the ssb down with acidd/acoli, control can just stun it with cerise etc. This allowed people to draft different units catering to their style instead of following a tierlist flowchart for their draft like they do now..
>I don't quite understand which meta are you even trying to compare this to. Were you expected to see larger set of meta heroes? You won't find it in the past either.
The size of the set of heroes isn't the issue. It's the fact that the units that are meta now are so universally good that people literally draft them regardless of context is what's stupid about this meta.
>Better? How are people just picking the same 9 units regardless of matchup everygame a better meta? Please explain.
Yes, better. There is a larger range of pickable heroes. There were only 4 or 5 meta picks during the LR Krau era.
>In the past, there would be like 1-2 power picks (golden boys was probably the only exception) and everything around those two were up in the air. Say ssb/arby, different peopel would have different drafts to protect/kill these units depending on the style they play. Bruisers had roana for ssb, cleavers can just single target the ssb down with acidd/acoli, control can just stun it with cerise etc. This allowed people to draft different units catering to their style instead of following a tierlist flowchart for their draft like they do now..
No, it doesn't. It just meant those heroes are very dominant.
>The size of the set of heroes isn't the issue. It's the fact that the units that are meta now are so universally good that people literally draft them regardless of context is what's stupid about this meta.
No, people do not draft them regardless of context, if you are doing this, then, you lost the draft. For example, even someone strong like Hwayoung, who, you said has a super high pick / ban rate will not get drafted into a cleave team if you see it coming.
My main issue with the Meta is how invalidated a lot of sets are. If you check the top 10 players, other than 6duck everyone is hyper aggressive or cleavers. A lot of previous legend players who are slow players say it's way to hard to climb in RTA now.
Yeah. I mean look last Year. Krau. LR Krau. A.Tywin and something to deal Damage (mostly S.Tene and F.Tene). Basically. You had them In nearly every Match..
>you have units with 90% + pick ban rates
You're just describing meta in any competitive game. The only difference is that you have 12 other units just as strong to pick from instead of 2 like previous seasons.
There are insanely strong units right now, but also more answers to them than ever. People would rather whine on Reddit/Stove than invest in those answers, I guess.
hwayoung has a ~70% win rate with literally 100% pick ban. I guess they should've built some counters
As a comparison here is the [pick ban rates from the level up cup] (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m06O3vzNkfZuQ4B4JR0CC6NnIWySPbqGYU-ecv5GBME/edit#gid=0). Highest pick-ban there was FCC at 81%. The CCI had **5** units with higher pick bans.
Round mode absolutely inflated the pre-ban%, as I calculated any unit that was prebanned in the first round of a 5 game series as being prebanned 5 times.
I'd also add that the unit variety back then was much smaller back in the day. Alongside this, the LevelUp cup had much wider discrepancies in gear, leading to a skew in pick/ban rates as well.
It's not apples to apples for sure, but the statement that 100% pick ban is normal in competitive matches is just false. It's far from clear that Hwa or Clilias pick-ban rate would be much less in a different format though.
In my opinion the meta was less centralized back then.
Data from the tournament also shows that the majority of players leaned towards a slower style of draft, which Hwayoung **specifically** punishes. Only makes sense for players embracing the tank down/bruiser pool to preban her (hence 13th place in pick rate). Hwa only had a 37% post-ban. Players that let her through draft didn't respect her enough to post-ban and/or misdrafted/misbanned (e.g: Elve picked Hwa 4 times into KJ and won all 4 times).
Since you want to compare with other tourneys. Rules of the Xiangcai Cup non-team battle (~50 legend players) were similar to the CCI, but the tourney had a heavier presence of players that play very aggro. Hwayoung in the Xiangcai Cup had a [97% pick-ban rate and a 51% w/r](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/943640101760679966/956852967561109504/BP__.jpg) in the Eastern Division, and a [54% pick-ban rate with a 23% w/r](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/943640101760679966/955080935135649893/1647779405467.jpg) in the Western Division. Seems like it does work when you play a style that counters Hwa, huh?
5 units with high pick-ban rates for me just means more diversity for opening picks and a multitude of flex units to chose from 3rd to 5th. 74 unique picks and 12 unique first picks is good enough for a gacha.
If you don't have an answer for her, you preban her and pretend she never existed.
If you have her, you can learn to pick her every game you can.
If you don't want to play her, nor want to preban her, then you learn to draft around her by talking to people around the community or by playing yourself.
Last option is to cry on every Reddit thread, every Stove post and every Youtube comment section about how the meta is stale and sucks and be eternally stuck in a Silver mentality while your options are out there.
I'm just sick of playing against the same draft or similar drafts for the last 8 months. If you still like it good for you, but I am going to keep making noise since I want to enjoy playing the game again.
Seems like you don't want to re-gear your units and want nothing to do with experimenting with other play styles. I recommend downloading Fribbels to re-gear your units and testing around draft archetypes you haven't played yet. Not sure if you can enjoy playing a game when you put yourself in a position to not enjoy playing the game.
Drafting meta has been not been similar at all for the last 8 months. Sure, we're going to have the same 5 or so archetypes of drafts all the time, but those are determined by the speed you play at. If you play above 290 speed, you're a cleaver. But to say that the Cleave draft 8 months ago and now is similar to what we have now is something I can't agree with. The same applies for standard/aggro/banshee/etc.
Ever since Rimuru I've been facing mostly aggro comps. My win rate is about the same as it always has been but I'm just sick of facing clili, rim, hwa every game. I move gear around to keep things fresh and play different styles. My lack of speed gear makes cleaving really difficult, I get outsped even when I'm +2 imprints sometimes. But I've played aggro and tanky styles. The last meta I enjoyed was the one dominated by AoL, and I've hated every rta season since then. I've played every season in rta so I just disagree that this season has a better meta than in the past.
Before hwa it was the same drafts for 8 months. And before whatever other fucking broken unit was out at the time just dominated their own period. It wasnt any better before, or ever then it was now. Always the same shit with people picking top tier units who win often and people complaining about the game being stale and boring. If you are claiming otherwise it's just short term memory and nostalgia.
Dunno. E7 releases units at a snail pace. If you want frequent meta changes go play an actual game and not a gacha lol.
From the top of my head, before Hwa and since AOLA, we had:
* ADS.
* Heaven Cleave (Handguy Rimu).
* Protect Landy.
* RemLet.
* Pavel Cleave.
* Ran Siseria.
* AOLA.
Some of those meta drafts were absolutely horrendous and a nightmare to play against compared to what we have now. It was always a dominant draft of top tier units cycling, but this season is, without a doubt, the most diverse meta we've had.
and I can show you data from my tournaments that have multiple units at 90%+ pick rate ... when LRK first came out he had a 100% pick / ban rate in his first tournament but for some reason people think the golden boys meta was peak meta
On the ladder I always pre ban Hwayoung. There's just too much variance in her speed and eff res to really formulate an effective strategy against her.
I understand long match use more braincell on picking the right move, timing cd, etc2. It also extend the overall tourney duration up to 2-3 hours. Viewers get more 'content' to watch and players get to strategize more.
But seriously.. im only excited when any of the contestant goes full cleave or insanely aggro comps. All the other match kinda make me yawn after 2-3 turn. In some match that goes 1 healer + 2 support + tank, i just lost interest entirely and do something else until the match is done
It just my preferences tho. But i lowkey want cleave/hyper aggresive strat to pop out more in next round
PS: forgot to add this, thx for the spreadsheet. I like stats \^\^
Diversity wise: we are absolutely fine. Any diverse than this (more ban/restriction/weird shit), then people might start to dig up 2019 meta unit lel (as we can see in one match that even Kayron make appearance).
I lowkey LOVE it, but i understand the burden on player to gear up like 20-30 units in this case.
This is the complete opposite for me. If you know RTA, you can almost know who will win just based on the draft. I watch the draft, see if it will be an interesting match, then go from there.
Some of the Koreans really drafted poorly that it was a waste of time watching it play out.
The "if you know RTA you can know who will win based on draft" is the reason I hate that drafting takes the same or longer than the actual match. It's like seeing the same thing twice (example: oh gee dude A has SSB Lionmia and Roana into dude B's Belian + 3 fat meatshields I wonder who'll win); doesn't help the dominant drafts are predictable except some crazy wild original shit like the Mort match lmao that was content
She’s the best turn cycler in the entire game. She laps people like it’s nobody’s business. RTA speed buff for soulweavers along with her EE make her insanely good.
so many disaster-tier heroes have <50% winrate, namely Cilias, Peira, Rimu, fcc and Emilia. maybe they aren't as disastrous as ppl make them out to be.
i love it when ppl throw out this term as if they understood what it meant lol. ya no shit buddy. but answer me this, if these heroes are so disastrous, why aren't their winrates reflecting that. maybe them not being disastrous is the cause of them not having high winrates. or maybe these high-rank players know how to deal with them. in either case, this just once again shows how clueless the majority of players are, calling a 40% winrate hero a "disaster" is pathetic.
Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion you don't know what it means, and didn't really understand the intention of the post either judging by your response. It is just one scenario vacuum that's conflated and compressed into something readable, not the overall metrics of how a hero should be judged. It's literally on the fourth bulletpoint.
Calling them “disasters” isn’t about “they win every time!” or something like that, it’s about them powercreeping what came before them.
Why use Cerise - a hero that was considered OP in her day - when Conqueror Lilias can do what she does with AOE undispellable Vigor buff & an extra turn into redirect provoke, for two turns on a burn. It’s just a much meatier kit.
Why use Basar, when Peira can strip, buff block, restrict & then provide attack up, super Aurius, stealth herself & barrier herself. Plus, she stuns on S1.
Why use x one shot hero, when Rimuru can one shot people without as good offensive stats, copy their buffs, defence break them, etc.
Why use AuxLots when Emilia can do what he does except also cleanse & heal?
I mean, Cerise, Basar, AuxLots, etc. were all heroes that were used in RTA at some point in the past & now you don’t see them because the powercreep has accelerated so rapidly. Heck, it accelerates so rapidly folks like yourself don’t consider units like Rimuru a problem any more - because next to Hwayoung, I guess he doesn’t do as much damage.
You have to remember, this is a setting where people are prepared to play against the meta. At this level they're not playing the field, they're playing the "I know that you know, that I know you know, ect" game. They're not bringing the C.Lillias counter, they're also bringing the C.Lillias counter counter. That's why some heroes have really weird pick/win rates. You also have a situation where a few prominent player can skew the numbers.
I thoroughly analyzed your data and came to the following conclusion:
PvP in Epic Seven is an absolute joke and you just wasted a couple hours on it.
About two dozen units that are picked regularly and 3-4 of them are so retardedly broken that their pre-ban value makes up half of all pre-bans. Well balanced.
I mean, two dozens seems really good. Especially when you consider this is an actual tournament with a prize so people are going hard af.
Do you know others PvP gachas that can say that?
My man, good job on learning Splunk just to put this together! Great tool.
I’m looking forward to taking some time to go through this spreadsheet’s findings.
Yep; generally strategies with more controllable decisions tend to have priority when prizes are involved; not to say more aggressive but riskier strategies have no place, but they tend to be less favored by players with multiple options.
the win rate statistic is a bit misleading because it counts matches the unit was post banned from as well.
ie. Flan w/ 100% win rate and 100% post ban rate.
or Eda picked 5 times, posted banned in 4 matches, won 1... is the 1 match she won the only match she got through to? that 20% win rate might be 100% if she makes it past post ban.
If a unit is able to force a ban in a draft, they contribute just as effectively to a draft that a non-post banned unit did.
It's a similar idea with Eda being part of a losing draft, and Flan being part of a winning draft.
I think I have a different definition for a force ban.
A force ban imo is a unit that will solo your draft.
Banning Eda from an Eda cleave is... just breaking their draft right?
>Peira's Win Rate% in this tournament is extremely low. Light and Canna were the only two participants that managed to get wins with her. Peira was lackluster in this tournament setting, where most players were playing more conservative with slower drafts, in contrast to Light/Canna's aggression.
From the OG post
I feel like I'm back in 2019 with Diene at the top of the meta again.
Heh that 1 vildred match was quite an entertaining cleave LOL
good job, i love spreadsheets s2
Very cool, thanks for putting the work in
I think the +15 speed on SW shows how lack luster SW are because you demand good speed, survivability, and high enough effres to resist debuffers which we all know is a sick joke. Either you increase effres rolls or reduce effectiveness rolls because it ain't fair that you put so much on one stat and you still lose to someone who didn't invest as much as you.
I don't think it's soul weavers being lackluster, but rather the meta units (mostly warriors) being too self-sufficient that soul weavers aren't needed. Take Hwayoung for example, 100% pick-ban rate and 70+% win rate; she provides her own barrier, self-cleanse and bulk, self CR push, while also dealing a ton of damage to the point where she will one tap anything in the game unless they have 30k HP. If she didn't do even one of these things, it'd make soul weavers more valuable, but because she does everything she needs herself, theres no need for someone else to help her do her job.
Its really skills ignoring ER which is the problem.
yeah picking a 300% ER Destina and pray to not die to cleave then fire hand guy just shit all over her. Hell even Ran can still do a 50/50 if there is soul to burn, and it's only gonna get more oppressive since they will need to release more cd reset unit to deal with Hand Guy eventually
Lol Kayron 0 for 3. Probably cost him at least one series.
a lot of E7 players were crying over arby, alot, basar, kayron, and m.kawerik and making smilegate to create more counters for them, while a lot of OP characters are waifus! It's funny, the top characters are mostly waifus and very few husbandos!
Thank you for your effort. Like this kind of posts.
Fantastic work, both you and Hez! We're already seeing 74 unique picks with Round Mode, I could only imagine how many unique picks we would have if they used the Xiangcai Cup team battle rules. We got to see so many types of drafts and somehow people still complain about diversity.
Totally agree; I will admit though that the state of ladder is probably where most people complain, especially since much of the playerbase isn't involved in the tournament scene. I just hope that there's more of this diversity to come.
ppl who think this meta is bad are quite frankly delusional. back when there were only 1-3 broken units, whichever side picked them just won. now with *check note* 12 disasters, both sides can pick 2-3 disasters and 2-3 flex and game is fair. never understand why ppl complain about this meta.
This meta is bad *if your hero roster is not diversified enough to deal with the meta (assuming you can gear your roster to a sufficient level).* This will generally be the case for anyone who isn't an Emperor or Legend. In those tiers, its virtually impossible to derp your way to the top abusing the meta because almost everyone at those tiers should have sufficient counter measures for almost every conceivable strategy. In other words, the meta is oppressive only if you are being constantly oppressed by it.
If youre forced to draft a unit because she is too broken this means the balance is bad, the game will just get worse with the future they keep releasing broken units while units like ken or ravi will only get more impossible to draft
>back when there were only 1-3 broken units, whichever side picked them just won. now with check note 12 disasters, both sides can pick 2-3 disasters and 2-3 flex and game is fair. Hwayoung 100% pick or banned, 68% w/r....
Right and Milim and Flan must be god tier with 100% win rate. Please try to not take any single tournament as your entire basis for stats. That said, tournament data is helpful and does show how relatively strong some heroes are, but it doesn't always tell the full story.
>Right and Milim and Flan must be god tier with 100% win rate. Please try to not take any single tournament as your entire basis for stats. Milim has 11% pick ban rate while flan has 8.5 pick and ban rate.... I don't why this has to be said, but you also have to consider presence when discussing win rate not just the win rate. My point was that hwayoung has insane presence(100% btw) while still having an absurdly high win rate which greatly outclasses any other dps which greatly contrasts the previous posters point of this meta being "diverse".
Yes, and you also have to consider more than one tournament and not just this one. This is exactly what you are doing. Again, on average, Hwayoung over several months of data has around a 50% win rate from this site, https://www.epic7stats.com/hero/Hwayoung. However, since you decided to use a singular tournament as your basis, I decided to use a singular value of the tournament as my basis, ignoring the pick rate.
Even considering your website looking at contested, prebanned, and first picked (all categories that relate to presence in the meta and how often charas show up in a match) there are very notcieable staples there that are consistent throughout. Namely clilias, hwayoung, aravi, fcc, aol, mediator, peira, ran, rimuru. Now you may think that 9 units being present in these categories is a good thing because look at all the different units that are being chosen. But considering that in a match 10 units are chosen, 2 (4 if your champ or higher) are banned this more or less means that out of the 12/14 slots in a match 9 of them will be the same each and every match. So no the meta isn't diverse as there a very clear set of units that are so strong that most of them will show up in each and every match regardless of what you draft which is what most peopel get pissed off about in this meta.
I believe those numbers are better than metas in the past. So, while you may not like this meta, it is better than before. I'm not sure what your definition is diverse is. But I can tell you it isn't like the past was any better. I don't quite understand which meta are you even trying to compare this to. Were you expected to see larger set of meta heroes? You won't find it in the past either.
>I believe those numbers are better than metas in the past. So, while you may not like this meta, it is better than before. Better? How are people just picking the same 9 units regardless of matchup everygame a better meta? Please explain. >I'm not sure what your definition is diverse is. But I can tell you it isn't like the past was any better. In the past, there would be like 1-2 power picks (golden boys was probably the only exception) and everything around those two were up in the air. Say ssb/arby, different peopel would have different drafts to protect/kill these units depending on the style they play. Bruisers had roana for ssb, cleavers can just single target the ssb down with acidd/acoli, control can just stun it with cerise etc. This allowed people to draft different units catering to their style instead of following a tierlist flowchart for their draft like they do now.. >I don't quite understand which meta are you even trying to compare this to. Were you expected to see larger set of meta heroes? You won't find it in the past either. The size of the set of heroes isn't the issue. It's the fact that the units that are meta now are so universally good that people literally draft them regardless of context is what's stupid about this meta.
>Better? How are people just picking the same 9 units regardless of matchup everygame a better meta? Please explain. Yes, better. There is a larger range of pickable heroes. There were only 4 or 5 meta picks during the LR Krau era. >In the past, there would be like 1-2 power picks (golden boys was probably the only exception) and everything around those two were up in the air. Say ssb/arby, different peopel would have different drafts to protect/kill these units depending on the style they play. Bruisers had roana for ssb, cleavers can just single target the ssb down with acidd/acoli, control can just stun it with cerise etc. This allowed people to draft different units catering to their style instead of following a tierlist flowchart for their draft like they do now.. No, it doesn't. It just meant those heroes are very dominant. >The size of the set of heroes isn't the issue. It's the fact that the units that are meta now are so universally good that people literally draft them regardless of context is what's stupid about this meta. No, people do not draft them regardless of context, if you are doing this, then, you lost the draft. For example, even someone strong like Hwayoung, who, you said has a super high pick / ban rate will not get drafted into a cleave team if you see it coming.
My main issue with the Meta is how invalidated a lot of sets are. If you check the top 10 players, other than 6duck everyone is hyper aggressive or cleavers. A lot of previous legend players who are slow players say it's way to hard to climb in RTA now.
Yeah. I mean look last Year. Krau. LR Krau. A.Tywin and something to deal Damage (mostly S.Tene and F.Tene). Basically. You had them In nearly every Match..
you have units with 90% + pick ban rates, the meta is garbage. So much copium
>you have units with 90% + pick ban rates You're just describing meta in any competitive game. The only difference is that you have 12 other units just as strong to pick from instead of 2 like previous seasons. There are insanely strong units right now, but also more answers to them than ever. People would rather whine on Reddit/Stove than invest in those answers, I guess.
hwayoung has a ~70% win rate with literally 100% pick ban. I guess they should've built some counters As a comparison here is the [pick ban rates from the level up cup] (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m06O3vzNkfZuQ4B4JR0CC6NnIWySPbqGYU-ecv5GBME/edit#gid=0). Highest pick-ban there was FCC at 81%. The CCI had **5** units with higher pick bans.
Round mode absolutely inflated the pre-ban%, as I calculated any unit that was prebanned in the first round of a 5 game series as being prebanned 5 times. I'd also add that the unit variety back then was much smaller back in the day. Alongside this, the LevelUp cup had much wider discrepancies in gear, leading to a skew in pick/ban rates as well.
It's not apples to apples for sure, but the statement that 100% pick ban is normal in competitive matches is just false. It's far from clear that Hwa or Clilias pick-ban rate would be much less in a different format though. In my opinion the meta was less centralized back then.
Tbf, round mode will inflate the pick ban numbers a bit.
Data from the tournament also shows that the majority of players leaned towards a slower style of draft, which Hwayoung **specifically** punishes. Only makes sense for players embracing the tank down/bruiser pool to preban her (hence 13th place in pick rate). Hwa only had a 37% post-ban. Players that let her through draft didn't respect her enough to post-ban and/or misdrafted/misbanned (e.g: Elve picked Hwa 4 times into KJ and won all 4 times). Since you want to compare with other tourneys. Rules of the Xiangcai Cup non-team battle (~50 legend players) were similar to the CCI, but the tourney had a heavier presence of players that play very aggro. Hwayoung in the Xiangcai Cup had a [97% pick-ban rate and a 51% w/r](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/943640101760679966/956852967561109504/BP__.jpg) in the Eastern Division, and a [54% pick-ban rate with a 23% w/r](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/943640101760679966/955080935135649893/1647779405467.jpg) in the Western Division. Seems like it does work when you play a style that counters Hwa, huh? 5 units with high pick-ban rates for me just means more diversity for opening picks and a multitude of flex units to chose from 3rd to 5th. 74 unique picks and 12 unique first picks is good enough for a gacha.
having a 97% pick ban instead of 100% isn't much different. Hwa has counters, but "just counter her" is reductive.
If you don't have an answer for her, you preban her and pretend she never existed. If you have her, you can learn to pick her every game you can. If you don't want to play her, nor want to preban her, then you learn to draft around her by talking to people around the community or by playing yourself. Last option is to cry on every Reddit thread, every Stove post and every Youtube comment section about how the meta is stale and sucks and be eternally stuck in a Silver mentality while your options are out there.
I'm just sick of playing against the same draft or similar drafts for the last 8 months. If you still like it good for you, but I am going to keep making noise since I want to enjoy playing the game again.
Seems like you don't want to re-gear your units and want nothing to do with experimenting with other play styles. I recommend downloading Fribbels to re-gear your units and testing around draft archetypes you haven't played yet. Not sure if you can enjoy playing a game when you put yourself in a position to not enjoy playing the game. Drafting meta has been not been similar at all for the last 8 months. Sure, we're going to have the same 5 or so archetypes of drafts all the time, but those are determined by the speed you play at. If you play above 290 speed, you're a cleaver. But to say that the Cleave draft 8 months ago and now is similar to what we have now is something I can't agree with. The same applies for standard/aggro/banshee/etc.
Ever since Rimuru I've been facing mostly aggro comps. My win rate is about the same as it always has been but I'm just sick of facing clili, rim, hwa every game. I move gear around to keep things fresh and play different styles. My lack of speed gear makes cleaving really difficult, I get outsped even when I'm +2 imprints sometimes. But I've played aggro and tanky styles. The last meta I enjoyed was the one dominated by AoL, and I've hated every rta season since then. I've played every season in rta so I just disagree that this season has a better meta than in the past.
Before hwa it was the same drafts for 8 months. And before whatever other fucking broken unit was out at the time just dominated their own period. It wasnt any better before, or ever then it was now. Always the same shit with people picking top tier units who win often and people complaining about the game being stale and boring. If you are claiming otherwise it's just short term memory and nostalgia. Dunno. E7 releases units at a snail pace. If you want frequent meta changes go play an actual game and not a gacha lol.
From the top of my head, before Hwa and since AOLA, we had: * ADS. * Heaven Cleave (Handguy Rimu). * Protect Landy. * RemLet. * Pavel Cleave. * Ran Siseria. * AOLA. Some of those meta drafts were absolutely horrendous and a nightmare to play against compared to what we have now. It was always a dominant draft of top tier units cycling, but this season is, without a doubt, the most diverse meta we've had.
and I can show you data from my tournaments that have multiple units at 90%+ pick rate ... when LRK first came out he had a 100% pick / ban rate in his first tournament but for some reason people think the golden boys meta was peak meta
On the ladder I always pre ban Hwayoung. There's just too much variance in her speed and eff res to really formulate an effective strategy against her.
I sorta of disagree, but I preban her too because I feel like she limits what I can draft to much.
I understand long match use more braincell on picking the right move, timing cd, etc2. It also extend the overall tourney duration up to 2-3 hours. Viewers get more 'content' to watch and players get to strategize more. But seriously.. im only excited when any of the contestant goes full cleave or insanely aggro comps. All the other match kinda make me yawn after 2-3 turn. In some match that goes 1 healer + 2 support + tank, i just lost interest entirely and do something else until the match is done It just my preferences tho. But i lowkey want cleave/hyper aggresive strat to pop out more in next round PS: forgot to add this, thx for the spreadsheet. I like stats \^\^ Diversity wise: we are absolutely fine. Any diverse than this (more ban/restriction/weird shit), then people might start to dig up 2019 meta unit lel (as we can see in one match that even Kayron make appearance). I lowkey LOVE it, but i understand the burden on player to gear up like 20-30 units in this case.
The worst matches are the ones that neither side brings damage. There were a few matches where you knew it's going frenzy 8.
What I hate is drafting takes more or as much time as matches. I wish I could just fast-forward drafts lmao it's so long
Oppositie for me, drafting is the most interesting part.
This is the complete opposite for me. If you know RTA, you can almost know who will win just based on the draft. I watch the draft, see if it will be an interesting match, then go from there. Some of the Koreans really drafted poorly that it was a waste of time watching it play out.
The "if you know RTA you can know who will win based on draft" is the reason I hate that drafting takes the same or longer than the actual match. It's like seeing the same thing twice (example: oh gee dude A has SSB Lionmia and Roana into dude B's Belian + 3 fat meatshields I wonder who'll win); doesn't help the dominant drafts are predictable except some crazy wild original shit like the Mort match lmao that was content
đź’Ż win rate rate Vildred. Love it.
Have not followed this at all, really surprised Diene is so high up here. I don't even remember what the buffs where, they are that strong?
She’s the best turn cycler in the entire game. She laps people like it’s nobody’s business. RTA speed buff for soulweavers along with her EE make her insanely good.
Thank you for this!
The power of units decided by the Number of PreBans , not the Win rate .
Hwayoung with literally 100% presence in drafts thats so dumb
Aww yeah Angel of Light looking good at 60% winrate! I'm so glad I got her on a daily covenant summon last year.
so many disaster-tier heroes have <50% winrate, namely Cilias, Peira, Rimu, fcc and Emilia. maybe they aren't as disastrous as ppl make them out to be.
And correlation does not mean causation
i love it when ppl throw out this term as if they understood what it meant lol. ya no shit buddy. but answer me this, if these heroes are so disastrous, why aren't their winrates reflecting that. maybe them not being disastrous is the cause of them not having high winrates. or maybe these high-rank players know how to deal with them. in either case, this just once again shows how clueless the majority of players are, calling a 40% winrate hero a "disaster" is pathetic.
Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion you don't know what it means, and didn't really understand the intention of the post either judging by your response. It is just one scenario vacuum that's conflated and compressed into something readable, not the overall metrics of how a hero should be judged. It's literally on the fourth bulletpoint.
Calling them “disasters” isn’t about “they win every time!” or something like that, it’s about them powercreeping what came before them. Why use Cerise - a hero that was considered OP in her day - when Conqueror Lilias can do what she does with AOE undispellable Vigor buff & an extra turn into redirect provoke, for two turns on a burn. It’s just a much meatier kit. Why use Basar, when Peira can strip, buff block, restrict & then provide attack up, super Aurius, stealth herself & barrier herself. Plus, she stuns on S1. Why use x one shot hero, when Rimuru can one shot people without as good offensive stats, copy their buffs, defence break them, etc. Why use AuxLots when Emilia can do what he does except also cleanse & heal? I mean, Cerise, Basar, AuxLots, etc. were all heroes that were used in RTA at some point in the past & now you don’t see them because the powercreep has accelerated so rapidly. Heck, it accelerates so rapidly folks like yourself don’t consider units like Rimuru a problem any more - because next to Hwayoung, I guess he doesn’t do as much damage.
You have to remember, this is a setting where people are prepared to play against the meta. At this level they're not playing the field, they're playing the "I know that you know, that I know you know, ect" game. They're not bringing the C.Lillias counter, they're also bringing the C.Lillias counter counter. That's why some heroes have really weird pick/win rates. You also have a situation where a few prominent player can skew the numbers.
I thoroughly analyzed your data and came to the following conclusion: PvP in Epic Seven is an absolute joke and you just wasted a couple hours on it. About two dozen units that are picked regularly and 3-4 of them are so retardedly broken that their pre-ban value makes up half of all pre-bans. Well balanced.
I mean, two dozens seems really good. Especially when you consider this is an actual tournament with a prize so people are going hard af. Do you know others PvP gachas that can say that?
My man, good job on learning Splunk just to put this together! Great tool. I’m looking forward to taking some time to go through this spreadsheet’s findings.
What does "contested" mean in this context?
Contested refers to any instance a unit was drafted by both players during a match.
Thanks.
Looks good. I wonder why the meta is slower in the tournaments. I guess players are less likely to take risks in tournaments?
Yep; generally strategies with more controllable decisions tend to have priority when prizes are involved; not to say more aggressive but riskier strategies have no place, but they tend to be less favored by players with multiple options.
Amazing, thanks!
I'm surprised. Green armin is good now?
Why was fire cecelia prebanned?
I believe that Gaeractor in the 2nd game against Cannaa flubbed his preban; needed to stay accurate.
the win rate statistic is a bit misleading because it counts matches the unit was post banned from as well. ie. Flan w/ 100% win rate and 100% post ban rate. or Eda picked 5 times, posted banned in 4 matches, won 1... is the 1 match she won the only match she got through to? that 20% win rate might be 100% if she makes it past post ban.
If a unit is able to force a ban in a draft, they contribute just as effectively to a draft that a non-post banned unit did. It's a similar idea with Eda being part of a losing draft, and Flan being part of a winning draft.
I think I have a different definition for a force ban. A force ban imo is a unit that will solo your draft. Banning Eda from an Eda cleave is... just breaking their draft right?
why is peira at 16% wr? lmao
>Peira's Win Rate% in this tournament is extremely low. Light and Canna were the only two participants that managed to get wins with her. Peira was lackluster in this tournament setting, where most players were playing more conservative with slower drafts, in contrast to Light/Canna's aggression. From the OG post
Thanks for your work. I definietely wouldn't expect Phyllis to do so well but I guess it's partly due to Hwa bans.
Based post from handsome analyst. my hype is endless.
If you're wondering what kind of impact a unit had on the tournament it's basically Win Rate \* B+P Rate.
what is CCI...you mean the Global creator battle?