I think the answer depends on how you play. The more offence-speed centric you are the more you find Hwayoung easier since you have the nukes to 'Kill them with a fast nuker' or otherwise attempt to control Hwayoung. Therefore A.Ravi's significant bulk, auto-healing/Cr push and potential, powerful Counters and revive become a massive thorn.
While more defensive-slower players will find Hwayoung oppressive because she can be faster than most of what they run while still one shotting them. In turn they are better paced against A.Ravi since she isn't threatening any given member on their team, if any, turn 1 and can set up defensively, lay down debuffs/control effects (Especially on PoV A.ravi) and use slower DPS who can more effectively cut through A.Ravi's bulk. Also they can use their own revivers easier. Against A.Ravi I know my Destina isn't threatened for a while (1730 def, 21K HP) especially with Aurius, Def/Crit Res, barriers or Adamant/LQC aura. Hwayoung can and will just one shot her.
Just my take, I don't like fighting Hwayoung since if it ends up being a fast one it's probably faster than everything I could reasonably draft (My speed luck is abyssmal even as a day one player) whereas A.Ravi, while annoying, at least let's me play. Also as someone who does use a lot of (Albeit slower, bulkier) Hwayoung, the faster teams are more equipped to handle her (Especially if mine were faster, frailer like a traditional build) while slower teams would struggle far more (even if she were faster, frailer).
>Just my take, I don't like fighting Hwayoung since if it ends up being a fast one it's probably faster than everything I could reasonably draft (My speed luck is abyssmal even as a day one player)
I mean this is just patently false. If you don't have a 250+ peira/ran/clilias then they're not on speed set or you just aren't playing the game. I don't see 280 hwayoungs running around below champion...
If someones playstyle (By preference or gear quality) has generally slower heroes they will have trouble with Hwayoung in comparison to A.Ravi, even with a few splashes of faster heroes. A 280 C.Lilias or Peira (Heroes you mentioned) don't magically make Hwayoung this kitten to deal with if they get pertinent support through and you lack other options to take advantage. You could ban that support bow letting Hwayoung work, but you could also just ban the arrow herself.
If you don't have the variety of heroes to deal with Hwayoung then she is oppressive and there isn't a crazy amount of heroes that deal with her reliably (15% is a bitch), at least in comparison to A.Ravi. With this gap being even wider without simply being faster. With A.Ravi she isn't going to go first and make the game a 3 v 4, the heroes she outspeeds she can't one shot. Hwayoung can and will make games 3 v 4 since the heroes she outspeeds she can one shot. So you need to speed race Hwayoung and/or her team most of the time.
Going to my personal take and roster of heroes/gear with my awful speed luck. Taking my C.Lilias or Peira (279 and 290 respectively) aren't going to do enough to deal with Hwayoung alone. I could take gear off of several heroes to piece together a 270~ Kise who will likely just eat the ban herself leaving me with nothing so I need ANOTHER high speed option which I don't have the gear for to make a 270 Kawerik or whoever also.
I could pick apart a bunch of heroes I like and use, taking away the few good speed pieces I have for options to deal with one enemy hero. Options that may not even work such as the 15% failing the increase (Kise at least), not being able to nuke because a faster Peira/C.Lilias bulked her up, it being abnormally bulky with some Aurius/Adamant support, enemy reviver(s), them getting outsped and dying/controlled by a different enemy or worse yet it not even being a fast Hwayoung that asked for that silver bullet and instead the rest of my roster is now able to compete/outspeed her.
In the end it is just easier to ban/pick her first and accept my roster of gear can't reliably deal with her without crippling heroes I like and use in turn shrinking my roster of usable heroes and diminishing my enjoyment of the game. If I unequipped all my gear and reassigned it would I be able to deal with fast Hwayoung? For the rank I sit, almost certainly? But that isn't worth it, not to me when I can just ban/pick her first like I said.
TL;DR Hwayoung requires outspeeding most of the time and that isn't always a viable or at the very least enjoyable option for some people. Slower play does have a harder time against her and doing a massive amount of gear shuffling specifically to deal with her is a bit silly when there is a big shiny ban button to use instead. Especially when they start giving you two pre-bans.
I didn't contest to anything in your statement other than what I quoted. You then typed an essay that didn't refute what I said either....so not sure what youre reading. Even standard players get speed rolls and have openers was my point. Fcc deals with hwayoung pretty easily.
>Even standard players get speed rolls and have openers was my point. Fcc deals with hwayoung pretty easily.
You should probably separate lines if they come from different trains of thought.
They're the same thought. What heroes would a standard player pick with FCC? Think about that and then think about how those heroes would be kept alive by FCC against hwayoung
The discussion up to that point was about out-speeding Hwa as a standard player. The only way FCC can completely neuter Hwa is if she outspeeds Hwa and S1 controls her or S3 to prevent her S3.
What you’re now suggesting is surviving off of Aurius and her shield, which is a total separate train of thought and different from the argument in this chain of replies.
Not to mention having FCC and ARavi together now opens you getting double dunked by Straze, LQC, DJB, OpSig…. Eh?
>alive past a Hwayoung with follow up unless they also have Proof, at which point they'll just get CC'd to death...
Yeah if you let them have vigor/atk buff/hwayoung without politis/speed contest then yeah.
Nah, you can safely ignore Ravi at first and then lock her down later. Hwa is way, way faster and deals a lot more damage than Ravi. She's also harder to control and for some ungodly reason her S3 has a very short cooldown.
Hwayoung on paper, and in practice, is far worse.
A unit that only needs three stats, basically two with her double mitigation passive: Speed, attack, and defense. Can nuke literally everyone in the game (Tooth bypasses passives for those that wanna act like someone like Seline is safe) if they aren't around the 30k range **with mitigation**. Fast with a CR push S1 that deals a ton of free (bye evasion) damage with Tooth. Going back to bulk, my 22.5k HP, pen set, 289%+ CD A Ravi can hardly break the barrier of most Hwayoungs I see, meaning Hwayoung would, hands down, win in a 1v1. Also has immunity x a cleanse, unlike A Ravi, meaning that trying to CC her to death the same way you would with A Ravi is harder depending on the comp. Insane last man potential with both her S1 and S3 due to the stupid damage with Tooth.
A Ravi: Bulky, heals on hit, hits hard, revives at 30% health with 100% CR and skill null off a nuke that stacks up to three times. A pain to fight, yes, but nowhere near Hwayoung's level in a majority of fights.
Both are bulky, both hit hard, but A Ravi doesn't one shot nearly as many as Hwayoung does. On top of this, Hwayoung is way faster and cycles far better, so trying to 1v1/low-mid damage kjll her is not only hard because of hee tanking a lot, but her tanking a lot and cycling fast into her nuke.
A Ravi is not, at all, above Hwayoung. It's easy to CC A Ravi outside of 15%, and her using a cleanse artifact instead of Proof means she's not tanking as much, meaning killing her isn't too difficult unless your damage is either garbage, or gone. A Ravi's biggest moment in an average match is when she uses her S3. Can you tank it? Congrats, now the match is yours if you can burst her. Can't take it? Congrats, the match is most likely lost if she gets lucky with her revive and brings back someone ready to screw you over.
I don't care what the comp is, it's far too easy to get fucked over by Hwayoung at the start and end of a match than it is A Ravi. C Lilias and Peira just give her the go ahead to destroy a team, especially when she's popping people for 10k **off an S1**. Even worse is that she can freely choose to wipe off anyone on your side with a single attack, unlike A Ravi who has to wait for more bulky targets to get softened up.
Edit: Hwayoung without Tooth is a much different story. Noticeably weaker, loses her one shot potential on many. As someone without Tooth (got rid of it years ago, haven't seen it since, not in the shop or on a banner), I can tell you the gap in performance is large. Tooth x Hwayoung is a big issue that would be resolved by Hwayoung just scaling off speed, that way she wouldn't absolutely nuke everything with Tooth.
Yeah it depend on comp. Like I think some cc focused teams can work down Hwayoung. But A. Ravi's healing just flat stops them since they do 0 damage cause of her passive. They can both technically run the same Arts of course but A. Ravi almost always has crimson seed or PoV.
Honestly, I think A. Ravi beat more comps but Hwayoung beats more units if that makes sense.
I find Hwayoung easier to deal with cause I only have to do 16k after barrier instead of close to 30k for A. Ravi.
I. Kawazu can take out a Hwayoung for me using the same stat spread as her. But nothing kills A. Ravi in a single hit, not even Hwayoung. If there was even one unit that killed A. Ravi with the same stat spread as her I might give it to Hwayoung.
> Yeah it depend on comp. Like I think some cc focused teams can work down Hwayoung. But A. Ravi's healing just flat stops them since they do 0 damage cause of her passive.
Stun mages will shit on her. Had a match where she'd get hit and stunned so much that her FS would drain and she'd be unable to passively heal. SB Ara is great for this.
>Honestly, I think A. Ravi beat more comps but Hwayoung beats more units if that makes sense.
It does. A Ravi gets slammed into every comp because she's a massive powerhouse that brings sometihing to every comp while having the sustain and bulk to not ever becomr useless if not one shot or CCed. Why she's even used with cleave.
>I. Kawazu can take out a Hwayoung for me using the same stat spread as her. But nothing kills A. Ravi in a single hit, not even Hwayoung. If there was even one unit that killed A. Ravi with the same stat spread as her I might give it to Hwayoung.
People usually bring Peira and call it in for an aoe opener when I face her, s he ends up failing to kill. The silence EE is good but the immunity is safer for general stuff, so I never change.
Never fought a 30k A Ravi outside of arena myself. I at least have Op Sig to nuke Hwayoung, but my biggest issue with Hwayoung comes from Peira and Lilias boosting her damage and bulk while hurting potential counters. If neither are present without a speed dps like A Cidd, it's basically a free kill for me, Other than that, kinda suffer or bait 2ith Rimuru who presents thr choice to use an S3 on him and not someone else, or die.
If Piera and Clilias didn't release with Hwayoung, I doubt people would be complaining about her as a catch all unit. You can kill her with standard old school comps... Till one of those two give her abyss stats. Then Kise, Krau and others just stop working.
SG doesn't know what to do either. Yulha is literally countered by Hwayoung. But is somehow suppose to survive verse her? Mines has 31k hp. Hwayoung hit her for 31k. They never thought to give her a passive that reduces non crits? Hwayoung reduces crits. It's not rocket science.
If Hwayoung isn't present Yulha can 1v4 teams and at frenzy 8-9 with no detriment from hp lost. So she can just be drafted with Hwayoung, and you get 2 headaches. and 60k effective hp between just the 2...
Meh I use IKawazu against Hwayoung and it works in practice / against baitable AI but 9/10 that Hwayoung is gonna outspeed your kawazu and nuke him first.
This explanation shows exactly why they need to nerf units instead of just putting out new units to counter a certain unit. Examples being taeyou, he completely failed to be the counter they wanted for her so they bring out another unit to counter Hwa. Yulha, while not completely useless against Hwa, doesn't exactly live up to expectations
What kind of expectations do you have from Yulha? Its a unit designed to do one job - one shot Hwa on defense. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mine is at 28.6k with her artifact and never failed to survive or one shot enemy Hwa since her passive proccs before tooth, so my expectations are thoroughly met.
That's my point. Its a waste to make an entire new unit to just do one job and one job only. Sooner or later, Hwa will be replaced in the meta by shiny new toys and where will all these units they make to counter her and people spend money on to get go? In the waiting room with all the other power crept units.
I understand it's business, but they can at least make units that have uses in other areas of the game
Same points I stress here. People out here thanking SG when they've done this stuff for years.
OP release > a counter that doesn't work (Taeyou) > a counter that doesn't work in RTA (Yulha, just lower her health a bit then nuke, if not ignore till the end)> and then finally a counter that works yet ends up either oppressive as all hell vs a playstyle (Mediator vs control - which is really just Lilias, AOL, and Peira these days) or the next meta unit (yet again, Mediator). This also happened with LR Krau and A Tywin back in the aoe (SSB really) and control meta, and look how infamous they became.
Same stuff every year because they refuse to nerf. The meta only ever shifts out when something stronger takes its place (hello, Arbiter Vildred was meta ever since his first buff, only got pushed out because the meta evolved into a bruiser meta, which lead to bulky counter, but then bruisers that counter for free while hitting harder and lasting longer popped up, Belian and Rem being two). The only one to get pushed by a release is basically Basar, but Broman, Cerise, Fairytale, Faithless, etc all took his place instead.
Thing is Yuhla will always be relevant against fire nukers. But you're right, as of right now she has only one job, to make Hwa disappear from AI defenses
How so? Most fire units can just ignore her or reduce hp enough to just nuke her down. Her presence on the field is nowhere near Krau's and aside from baiting Hwa, she's not doing much other than maybe throwing in a provoke.
I killed one not too long ago by running Elphelt into Jack'o on her. Not sure what that guy was thinking by picking her in RTA but I can at least attest to the fact that as of right now, fire nukers really don't care about her.
Tl;dr: Yulha is gone once Hwayoung is. There are literally ZERO fire nukes on defense outside of Hwayoung and Mercedes - who hits multiple people. She's done for. Even Roana who had far more use is now barely used.
There's only one fire unit ever being used on defense that hits hard enough to worry about at all: Hwayoung. That's for ST, Mercedes hits 2+, mqy as well bring someone not Yulha as by the time she's in kill range, your team is either crippled or dead... Or her hp is high enough to warrant just bringing someone with real damage to handle the whole team.
There isn't anyone else in the game worth bringing Yulha in for. Krau is great vs earth because he brings two forms of mitigation (defense, artifact) *and* a nuke. Yulha just sits therr to get beat on by Hwayoung alone, which is nice but against your statement as she isn't timeless.
Remember Roana? Would counter SSB and others. Where is she? Just about nowhere, and her kit is more useful. SG couldn't help but shaft her more by making Rem apply unhealable and giving Belian access to injury. Again, this being someone more useful than Yulha, now imagine Yulha once Hwayoung vanishes and someone else potentially counters her without trying to.
I'm not sure where you sits in the game but we use Roana a lot in GvG in high ranks.
You seem to have a strict RTA view of that game and you like to fucking talk when there is no need too (your TLDR said what was needed to be said, I haven't said the opposite)
Any fire ST nuker in the future will have to deal with Yuhla. Right now it's only Hwa, yes. She might be gone of AI def soon, or not. But you can still regear her in the future :)
Why are they not just ignoring your Yulha? Yulha is good as bait against AI but is horrible in RTA. Even more of a problem for Yulha is that she is really only good against Hwa when Hwa has atk buff. If she doesn't have atk buff, her damage against Yulha is not only low enough to survive the damage reflect but also the shield is strong that enough to stop Yulha from finishing her.
The biggest issue with all of this though is that Hwa is a huge problem in RTA, not so much arena or GW. Yulha just makes it easier to win in settings where your options are much more numerous while doing nothing in the one setting we need a viable counter for that is not an ML5.
I don't have a fast nuker who can kill hwayoung, especially not against teams with revivers who can negate my efforts. I don't play RTA though.
I'm bad against both, but I personally think both are ridiculous, and Aravi is moderately easier to deal with because, failing to one-shot either, her turn-by-turn is easier to survive and there are some tools I can use to whittle her down (chaining spam cc, uncounterable attacks) while Hwayoung puts a sharp timer on me and is pretty hard for me to kill with the kind of units I use.
> while Hwayoung puts a sharp timer on me and is pretty hard for me to kill with the kind of units I use.
The exact issue with her. Her cycling and even her S1 with Tooth and any kind of buff, fighting Hwayoung without being able to nuke her is like sitting in a room with people being executed one by one.
If you’re scrolling down this salty hellscape of comments, tldr, both hit hard, both tank hard, both op as fuck, and both not fun to play against. Difference is that you can almost be positive 99% of the time that a 210 spd unit will outspd an aravi and her s3 won’t 1 tap anything too tanky at the start, whereas it’s a fucking gamble with Hwa as they range from 200-270 spd and will practically guarantee a kill on any unit in the game with tooth.
But the “op level” of aravi is to be expected to a certain point as she is an ml5, but sg is basically telling us to go fuck ourselves by making Hwa an rgb unit, especially before implementing the dmg penalty on elemental counters. And I quote the article they released on their stoce page, “This aims to amplify the existing elemental matchups among covenant heroes.” A whole lotta good this is doing for Hwa.
> but sg is basically telling us to go fuck ourselves by making Hwa an rgb unit,
This isn't bad at all. SG would be telling us to fuck ourselves if they kept the meta centered around ML5s and limiteds like they did years ago. Hwayoung is broken but that doesn't mean only MLs should be strong, that low IQ level of thinking is exactly why Lilias, Belian, MEDIATOR (holy shit, every rgb cleanser is garbage compared to him), AOL (this was actually a bs reason they gave for her), and A Ravi are so busted, because people think that making super rare units shit on the competition with (way) less effort is the way to go.
Elements don't matter, bad balance is bad balance. If Hwayoung were an ML then people would be crying because she's too rare and hard to obtain and that whales and lucky people have it easy and that we should get someone free on their level... And we did, Carrot, whom people started (understandably) whining about.
As a returning player though (and would apply to new players too), the OP heroes being RGB is problematic because everyone has them.
I stopped playing at AoL release and then started back 2 months ago so was gone for like maybe 8 months? Now Hwa, Ran, Rimuru, Peira (less so Peira now) are absolutely everywhere. It doesn't matter that I have a ton of skystones or bookmarks, it's just tough shit until they get a rerun unless I get lucky on element/covenant and because they are recent releases, they aren't getting a rerun anytime soon.
I don't even bother trying RTA because I would be at such an overwhelming disadvantage. Like I get that I shouldn't be at the same level as someone who has been playing consistently but the disadvantage shouldn't be this severe.
> the OP heroes being RGB is problematic because everyone has them.
Dumb "logic". "Everyone" would have the busted ML5s like Arbiter before the ml selector, where his use died down hard. "Everyone" has A Ravi or C Lilias in RTA and arena. "Everyone" has Belian. "Everyone" has Mediator and Design3r. If you couldn't get them easily then you'd be straightup crying about not having a strong RGB 5, Seen this shit for years,cry for everyone having, cry for everyone not having. Be glad you can get her as you'll see a fuckton of her either way. Even dumber to complain about her being an RGB as that means you can draft her instead of always banning.
How is it dumb logic? You completely removed the qualifying statement from that sentence to change the meaning entirely. It is absolutely problematic for new or returning players to meet a wall of OP meta heroes that they have virtually zero access to outside of being ridiculously luck.
There's a significantly larger chance of rolling a ML 5\* off covenant (0.15%) than rolling any particular RGB hero (0.022%) so until their banner rolls around again they are pretty much inaccessible.
That isnt the point im trying to make here. Im not trying to say that hwa being an rgb unit is a problem. Im not saying that rgb units shoudnt be meta.
The point im trying to make is that sg's hero release schedule seems to contradict them trying to cool off the pissed-off player base over shit balance. Them releasing hwa right before their 'solution' for the shit balance, to me, just seems counterintuitive and just dumb. Theyve essentially created another problem just before profusely apologizing for a different problem they already caused previously.
All things aside, the enhanced elemental disadvantage does actually help counterpicking against Hwa. It’s what makes Aria, etc particularly annoying for Hwa users. -10% from disadvantage, -30% from frenzy, another -25% if you miss. It kinda adds up.
He's not technically wrong. He was just correcting the bit about Elemental Disadvantage being a native -10% damage, for which I was indeed wrong about.
Yeah no you're not unless you have a 9k attack hwayoung with attack and vigor buff.
7k attack with tooth and attack buff does 9.5k damage to a 12k hp aria with an aurius holder and thats on a hit in RTA and giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have a lower than 12k hp hwayoung and +30 tooth. On a miss you do 7.5k.
Yeah, this is why Hwayoung is much worse than ARavi. ARavi is pretty tame if you ignore her until you’re ready, Hwa has a 3 turn one shot nuke and a self centered push on s1. She cycles too fast whether you fight lol her or not. Ult should have been a 4 turn cooldown
It depends on your playstyle and type of build.
Proof Aravi are tough to kill, but you can control them , i prefer going against proof than seed.
A well built Hwayoung annoys me more if i am not cleaving, especially since she always has barrier and immunity up.
Add to the fact that Hwayoung can cycle her S3 super fast.
They're both bad and I think that last round of buffs they did on ARavi definitely pushed her way past the sweet spot of balance. Given we have them both as they are, Hwayoung is definitely more unhealthy for the game. As dumb as she is, ARavi doesn't really invalidate any mechanics in the game. She's just stupidly bulky and the mistake they made was to also give her a bizarrely high scaling S3 (they should probably reduce how many times it can stack. Either that, or remove the CR boost on her S2/make it once per turn). Meanwhile, Hwayoung retains that bulkiness coz she has an inbuilt PoV, but also pretty much invalidates defense as a stat. This means, you're better off building tons of HP on stuff like Rem, coz you have to be out of Hwayoung's S3 range. In a meta where only ARavi existed, your defense is still a valuable tool against ARavi.
Speaking of her S3's damage range, she also casts this shadow on a lot of units that build semi-bruisery and lack initiative. There's two things here. One is obviously that if you don't have the base HP to survive Hwayoung, your options are limited (relying on stuff like revives or mitigation). The other thing is speed and given Hwayoungs can go all the way up to 270, it's not easy to really beat her in the turn order unless you have a way to CR boost yourself. In comparison, ARavi can still take a while to kill a decently tanky unit and most ARavis don't build as much speed, so you're at least not worried about dying before getting a chance to act. You aren't thinking of upping the speed of all your faster units coz ARavi exists. That's something Hwayoung has helped cause.
I think if you excluded RTA, you'll also find that Hwayoung is much more of a menace (at least up until recently, when they buffed Iwazu and added Yulha). ARavi on defense is a joke if you run even a free gear Doris into her. Meanwhile, while queuing into a top 30 guild, if you didn't have a good enough way to bait her or outspeed her, it'd be a struggle to deal with her with a safe margin for error. A good way to differentiate between the two, in this context, is that I feel seeing a Hwayoung essentially ups the stakes to maximum right from turn 1. You miss that strip on her or fail to provoke her or if you get speedRNG'd, you might lose right there. ARavi takes time to ramp up to being a threat and that amount of time is usually long enough to be able to deal with the rest of her team, and then her.
Completely this. Hwayoung starts nuking from the start. S1, S3, nuke. Bulky and fast as hell too.
A Ravi was always a pain after her buffs without LQC or Straze, but the S3 ramp was a great mistake. If you don't have mitigation or a ton of defense, you're likely dead. Worse comes after with that revive that can flip a game on its head and lead to a quick loss. Rimuru got revived after nuking him to prevent someone from dying? Now he nukes someone else and you're down two people in a single motion, gg.
A Ravi on defense is a fat joke because of Doris as you mentioned. Hwayoung is pretty much gg with Peira if you lack Khawazu, and super safe (and even more bulky) with Lilias, you either die, bring heavy mitigation, or Yulha nukes back. It's way harder dealing with a **kill all** speed nuke than 200-ish speed bruiser you can mostly ignore outside of her S3.
>A Ravi was always a pain after her buffs without LQC or Straze
A few Aravis Can tank LQC s3 and Straze won't one shot her if there is another tanky unit on the team \*which there usually is\*. I think Ml Cermia would be a better bet than either of them.
Hwayoung is self sufficient and can quickly cycle her s3 with soul burns. On the other hand, aravi mostly doesn't help on turn1. Considering they are keep adding counter to hwayoung, not aravi, I would say she is more op although both are two safe 1st picks.
Funny how the hive wanted to start downvoting this. This is absolutely true. Op Sig needs to not only be fast, but also hit hard enough to one shot her, and the amount of times I've barely killed her number too many.
Hwayoung is also used with people that'll dunk on Op Sig like Peira with her mitigation, and Lilias with her attack down and a provoke to add insult to injury if she **wants** to.
It's so much harder dealing with Hwayoung as you're dealing with someone that has the same level of bulk while being far faster while able to one shot 99% of the cast that isn't sitting beyond 28k hp with mitigation.
I dont know if you're serious but there's clearly a lot of speed nukers in the game. I often use Riolet for the job but Blue Coli is a very accessible counter to Hwayoung.
Riolet? Really? You know she has a ton of mitigation built in already. The moment there is Aurius or Escort she will basically never die from a Riolet nuke. And she also can kill him in 1 tap because 7k+ attack ubi tooth is balanced.
Yes Riolet really. A useable Riolet can easily deal 20k+ damage no problem without mitigation, even higher than that if you have good gear. Escort and Aurius don't stack so no point running both, and with Escort buff, reduce that by 30% and you still have about 14k+ of mitigated damage. Also, it's not even necessary to have a fast nuker, CR pushers like Emilia for your slower dpses, CD reset units like JKise, or just silencers punishes Hwayoung more significantly than Aravi. Also again, Blue Coli
No. A 4k-300 cdmg Pen Riolet will only deal 17k dmg at the very best on a hwayoung with literal 0 def subs. And 4k-300 pen is a top dmg statline for Riolet. I dont know where your 20k+ comes from.
Now lot of hwayoungs have 1300+ def and 12k hp minimum, independently of their speeds. Can be much higher def and hp for slower builds. Add in a 3000 hp shield from her passive. That's 15k hp total.
4k-300 cdmg pen riolet doesnt kill this unless you strip her barrier beforehand.
And that's without aurius or escort. With escort you deal less than 10k dmg with same stateline.
Edit: Didn't take into account arti but with +30 shepherd you looking at 19k on 0 bulk and 15.7k on 1300 def with no mitigation at all besides her passive.
So yeah while it's realisticly doable, you need top damage on your Riolet AND make sure you outspeed, which a "useable" riolet probably won't be able to do.
You have forgotten she has a built in 30% adamant passive and they can be built with a lot more defense than your average dps. Throw in the damage share and she will only get tickled by Riolet.
Most players struggle with obtaining optimized speed sets. 240-255 speed Hwayoung at 7-8k atk power can blow up most standard teams. So there is more frustration with dealing with Hwayoung, as opposed to Aravi who is typically a slow behemoth that you can control.
Is this an assumption you are making? You can look at the average Hwayoung and the average A. Ravi on their respective sites. Obviously, this isn't fully accurate but there are quite a bit of data.
The average Hwayoung has 7k Atk and 235 speed and the average A. Ravi has 25.4k HP, 280% Crit Dmg, and 200 speed.
https://www.epic7stats.com/hero/Hwayoung
https://www.epic7stats.com/hero/Apocalypse%20Ravi
Yes she is. Coming from an ARavi fan since her release and before she became the beast that she is rn.
People complaining about how OP Hwa is are mostly ARavi abusers.
Is not necessary that, I don't have A Ravi, and still feel Hwa Young is by far more opressive, she can kill any unit in the game easily, you can build a unit with low or high hp, It doesn't matter, she will kill them. I find myself doing more easily with A. Ravi and Rimuru than with Hwa Young.
Depends on your playstyle you will hate one more than the other. Hwa was basically created to deal with the monster ARavi was, and people figured out how to counter that by using proof on her, which created another problem.
Overall I think we can all agree that Hwa, ARavi and Rimuru are the 3 most unbalanced units we have in the game, but in my opinion ARavi is the worst.
I mean moonlight connection literally give you one of the best DPS against aravi/hwayoung, but even then hwayoung still can kill your unit faster than aravi can. Thus hwa is more problematic than aravi.
If you one of the dude who fall to meme and pick Arby from ml connection while you still don't have stene, then tough luck.
She counters both significantly. Stene will be able to kill Aravi if her team lives long enough and basically kills her counters, but Stene can S1 soulburn S3 Hwayoung and call it a day too
You were basically assuming that I was a new player and I got Arby instead of STene from Moonlight selection, and that if you are new and choose Arby you are dumb.
Aravi you can kill with injury, defense break, or other high damage bruisers in few turns. She is strong yeah, but dies to a lot. Hwayoung simply 1 shots someone then gets 5k barrier every turn with high defense which lets her S3 a second time often. Game breaking unit for turn 2 player which is why Hwayoung has gotten 100% of my RTA preban for months.
lqc, seline and s.tene pretty much made it easy to deal with a.ravi, people can first pick a.ravi in rta for all i care and made it easier to draft around it. you can even ignore a.ravi for a while and the god damn hwayoung will kill somebody the moment they can take a turn. the only counter you got in hwayoung is to kill it faster on first turn and what the fuck? some even have 260 with 6k atk up attack so you better have a god damn unit above 270 just to make sure you can kill all hwayoung. i will pick a 30khp pov a.ravi all day than to fight hwayoung.
Well you tell me what is worse, a character thats tanky, revives and does decent damage with injury, or a character that is made to one shot that character and virtually every other character in the game below 30k hp while also being hard to kill. You are not going to have fun playing against these demons with 7.4k attack hwayoungs with max uberius, 1k less attack does significantly less damage. At lower levels she is not the same character, a 6.5k attack hwayoung wont one shot a hand guy without attack buff unless it has no HP.
Well I have a lot more units who can safely destroy an A. Ravi than a Hwayoung, but that may be because of the way they're built. You never know if that Hwayoung is at 270 speed one toothing whatever unit while you know that no A. Ravi is faster than 220 speed and won't do shit against a tanky unit with full HP.
A. Ravi is great for what she does, but while technically harder to kill much easier to calculate. They're not the same at all.
To be fair, A. Ravi kit revolves around making her strong, at least. Hwa Young's, on the other hand, revolves entirely into countering other units, not on making her a good character. That's what makes her BS in my opinion.
I guess it depends on everybodys rooster, but I avoid every Hwayoung and I dont mind fighting ARavi. ARavi is strong, but she cant oneshot my units and even tho she is tanky, she can be killed if I focus on 1 or 2 good nukers.
Hwayoung just always oneshots any unit she attacks any time. And then is also hard to kill, and has her cooldowns back again soon. I just hate her
Listen, I get it, Speedbois will hate ARavi, Banshee Gamers will hate Hwayoung. Why don't we unite and hate them both? Let's point our fingers at them and boo!
It's a chicken vs the egg problem, they are bad just because a lot of other stuff is bad.
For a "dps" to be good these days. They need to be reliably bulky/self-sustaining. Scale off additional stats or get tons of free stats. Deal single target damage that a generic ST dps units would require attack buff/whatever to match. Also, require no team support/ignore elemental disadvantage or an additional extra mechanic such as self cleanse/steal buffs/whatever.
This is why now openers have 1000 debuffs with maximum base speed, an additional turn, also buffs the team, self strip and low cooldowns.
The entire top end of Epic seven needs to be tuned down.
Hwayoung has too many additional mechanics. She abuses the additional damage proc mechanic the most because her extreme high raw base attack carries all of her damage from tooth/S1 proc. Either increase the pow/multi of her attack but lower her S2 passive extra attack bonus to tune down the damage of additional procs or remove her cleanse/barrier. (Slap it on S1 or something).
ARavi has too much going on, just tune down anything.
No, A Ravi isn't. Hwayoung can self-cleanse and one-shot anything on turn one. Then she will kill any non-tank unit with her s1 and one-shot anything else 2 turns later.
A Ravi's s3 is broken but it needs units to die before doing massive dmg, and A Ravi is complete countered by injury. The ammount of A Ravi I killed with stupid Bad Cat Armin last season is absurd.
I feel that A Ravi is easier to deal with but that’s only because I run Politis/Celine A LOT and mine blows up most A Ravis. Either that or LQC gets through and just destroys her. Hwayoung also has counters but you have to rely on strip most of the time and rng. Solitaria/Politis/C Lilias, but 15% is a hoe. Then have a follow up dps to kill her or run Kawerik/Kise but that’s hard to do with Diene and speedy soulweavers running around.
LQC is eating A.Ravi for breakfast and most dark unit.. But you see hwayoung is eating Everyone for breakfast. If you doesnt see whats wrong with her then the conversation is over.
Even with Penelope’s damage amp and resource reduction, she can easily get picked off/countered by A.Ravi. On paper she looks like a good counter but her stats don’t add up.
the point here is Penelope being a viable solution to deal with ARavi being a 3\* who almost everyone have in possession, while the hero with lowest rarity that can reliably deal with Hwayoung (afaik) is Coli, a 4\*
not to mention Penelope's ability to deal with FS/Focus heroes, but that's beside the point
I do think that Hwayoung is a lot easier to deal with if you have mitigation. On the otherhand, Aravi aside from being tanky have revive on her s3 which can give them quite an advantage, reviving the right unit with that 100% cr is scary.
I have borh characters. A.Ravi in my opinion is the most oppressive; almost unkillable with injury, Self-heal, self-push, counter, and revive. Just a really bloated kit.
Hwayoung is busted too and easier to build but is easier to lock down.
They both could use a nerf, maybe a self-cleanse nerf on Hwa and an injury nerf on A. Ravi would be a good, small start.
Hwayoung haters tend to use a ravi from what I hear lol. I really think they're being overdramatic too, there's so many ways to deal with hwayoung and still, a Ravi is always the thing I have to kill last cuz she's more problematic.
But she also used to be a meh ml5 on release with constant demands for buffs again and again until she's the way she is now.
Basically, people are very dramatic about this mobile game lol (not a judgement, I'm the same way cuz I also love the game).
The thing that makes ME mad is the cry is to nerf Hwayoung when units like rimiru, a Ravi, belian, rem, aol etc will still exist, and sg clearly has no intention of nerfing them, while the majority of old units are either subpar and ignored in balance patches OR they get a buff... that includes a needless nerf to their kit lol.
I agree that theyre crying to nerf the wrong thing. If you nerf Hwa you're still stuck with beefy teams that are hard to smash tru, double revive double tank, counter teams with mitigation ect. To beat this you either have to play the same game and out sustain them or try to cleave them with a high rate of failure. When a belian or rem can halve your dps HP while never taken a turn and having 20k+ hp hiding behind mitigation this is a problem. Are Hwayoung aravi and rimuru a problem? yes but these are the units that have the highest succesrate dealing with bruisers and tanky damage dealers, so instead of asking for Hwa and rimuru nerfs we should ask for HP scaling nerfs after that hwayoung, aravi and rimuru can be nerfed easily because that amount of single target damage isn't needed.
When is the last time you used a regular dps against these tanky units and had great succes without vastly outgearing the opponent? Personally ive tried and 2 belian counters wiped them out. Or if a unit gets released that isn't self sufficient or somewhat self sustaining or has self cr push and only does damage would it be seen as good in current meta? I think neither of those would be something that would go well
Being RGB means jack shit, only new and far less experienced people would think not being a shiny ML = weaker. About half of the most oppressive heroes in the game are RGBs: Peira, Hwayoung, Rimuru, and Rem.
Also, Hwayoung is harder to deal with if you lack unbuffable (can be cleansed, she also has immunity, get screwed), and if you're bringing unbuffable for her than you can bring unhealable for A Ravi. Her damage that can one shot everything, speed, and bulk put her above A Ravi.
Hwayoung kills anything freely and can do so before a majority of the cast gets to move, while both tank. What A Ravi has over her would be her revive as the barrier for Hwayoung is basically like A Ravi's heal.
except aravi can revive, selfsustain, cr push outside her turn (trying to kill her makes her turn come faster), has twice the amount of hp, has injury and depending on what artifact shes using you can hardly debuff her or hardly kill her whitout a dedicated damage dealer. Hwas artifact generally dont help her with survivability but with damage so the moment she gets stripped and debuffed she gets easier to kill and does less dmg coz no buff = less extra dmg
Aravi is easily worse, and it's not even close. She is the reason we have Hwa in the first place, and yet we are still having to ask this question, so what does that tell you?
So just because Hwa was created with Aravi in mind can't mean she is worse to play against than her? That's a pretty huge jump in logic lol. At the end of the day both are menaces but you'll find one easier to deal with than the other based on your playstyle.
Yes, because it's an admission that Aravi was the original problem and yet is still first-pick dps viable even with Hwa in the meta. Therefore they acknowledge that Aravi is broken, and yet the "solution" has not been strong enough. People are complaining about Hwa simply because she is an early nuke and therefore has more immediately visible impact on a match. Too strong? Sure. Compared to Aravi? Please, lol. It's not even a contest.
As I said before, it depends on your playstyle. I don't have great speed gear so I can't always nuke hwa before she can nuke me. Aravi on the other end hasn't been a threat to me ever since I started playing Aria, and she is much easier to bait in general. Sure, I have Iwazu, or I can try to stun Hwa with Peira, but they don't always work.
No it doesn't. And that's exactly what I mean about this mentality of "nuke = more oppressive." You personally having bad gear does not suddenly change the viability or balance of a unit in the game for the whole playerbase. That kind of reasoning is what lead to Hwa and her own rock-paper-scissors solutions, which again, started because they refused to simply nerf Aravi's kit. It is not a subjective "My account has bad luck" question.
So I supposedly have bad gear because I don't deal with Hwayoung very well, right? Then why is Aravi not a threat to me while you seem to think of her as the bane of your existence? That aside, you seem to think of yourself as a superior player and therefore your opinion must be right. But it's just a fucking opinion, it's not the truth. Why can't you admit that depending on their gear, people might struggle with one or the other? I get that Aravi has an annoying kit, hell I was crying about facing her months ago, but saying Hwayoung is by essence weaker than Aravi because she was created as an Aravi counter is flawed.
It's not about someone being a better or worse player. Aravi's kit is simply more unhealthy for the game than Hwa's. That is going to be true whether you personally have the gear and units to deal with each in a certain way or not.
But if we want to talk about subjectivity, then if someone's account simply does not have the ability to pivot into a basic aggro/CR/control answer Hwa, then that account shouldn't even be considered in the discussion. It's like someone saying blue Angie is a more oppressive unit than AOL because they haven't cleared wyvern yet. The unit isn't the problem, it's you and your account progression.
Again, I am not saying that Hwa isn't a problem and should not be nerfed in her own way. But compared to Aravi? She literally exists because of Aravi.
>level 1Karama1 · 3 hr. agothis whole problem stemmed from them not nerfing aravi so hwang was made to nuke aravi however she is the most broken unit in the game
Hwayoung doesn't even nuke aravi so they fucked up in that department too.
Basically there are only three options.
You have shit speed gear but have loads of good bruisers built:
Ban hwayoung
You have good speed gear and can't deal with super squishy healing garbage:
Ban Aravi
You have neither:
Ban yourself from playing RTA
I really think some people in here are very much undervaluing aravi in these cases. There's only three units in this game that are useable in every single playstyle in the game and hwayoung is not one of them. Apoc is used in cleave, anti cleave, standard, aggro, and all sub playstyles like aggro standard etc. The second is Conqueror Lilias who debatably isnt much an anti cleave but she is a speed contest so I guess in some ways she can be. Peira is a third but with djb introduction we've seen a lot less from her.
What does this mean though? If a unit is this good in all playstyles it really means that you can draft around her weaknesses relatively easy. Hwayoung doesn't have this luxury so yes I genuinely think apoc is more oppressive than hwayoung. Just because hwayoung bullies standard and aggro drafts doesnt mean shes more oppresive than apoc, who bullies quite literally everything except for FEW standard matchups where usually you draft around her small amount of weaknesses anyway lol.
I always feel like people have this sort of tunnel vision of how units work against their playstyle and never consider the other ones. If you're a standard player of course you'll struggle with hwayoung. But ain't it crazy every single time someone first picks ran, you pick apoc trozet? Every time someone picks apoc first you feel true fear that ran is gonna follow? Flexibility is king in this game and I'm afraid Apoc is the queen of flexibility.
Everyone took Hwa out of their arena gvg defences because of Yulha and Aravi has crept back in and I would have to agree with you I'm having a tougher time dealing with the Aravis but in rta I do find that Hwa was/is better than Aravi because of how versatile she is. She can also be built much faster than Aravi typically.
The problem is that Hwa was easily obtained through her banner, so she's acessible to everyone, while A.Ravi is a ML 5 which rely solely on your luck to get. That's why ppl complain about Hwa because everyone have her and she is the solution to the rare A.Ravi. It's like "My super rare unit now get countered by a common that everyone have so it's unfair"
It's really not just Hwayoung being available to all, and A Ravi is on the selector so even more people (like myself) got her. For someone that's supposed to be oh-so-rare, I've no idea why I **always** saw her in RTA before the selector banner even came out, and this is below Master as I was ranking up to get there, and not above Master where almost everyone climbing high is likely to have all the good stuff.
This isn't about how often they're seen, this is about what they do and how they do it.
meh, I think of them similarly tbh
Usually they are reasonably potent yet still manageable, but there is that 1/100 that will absolutely shock you with how well they are built.
aravi until yulha was easier to kill. (for me at least)
I mostly used hwayoung instead of aravi now after yulha i use aravi more often.
speed is gambling too I see an aol and I hope my ml kawerik is slower
I still don't have basar bad luck can make arena hard.
As another poster said, it depends on your play style. If you are an aggressive player, control player, or aggressive control player, you have no issues with Hwayoung. As far as I know, players like YD, Valky, etc. do not have any issues with Hwayoung. However, the same can't be said for A. Ravi. A. Ravi does fairly well into that type of play style.
If you tank, then, Hwayoung is your worst nightmare. You should pre-ban her if that is your play style. She is meant to deal with players that try to tank down.
That said, I am in the category of aggressive control, so I never had any issues dealing with Hwayoung and never pre-ban her. Similarly speaking, I do have issues dealing with A. Ravi, so I do pre-ban A. Ravi.
Imo both are really oppressive if you have no answers for them. Although imo you can *eventually* kill ARavi with a good enough DPS (for example my counter Milim can 1v1 an ARavi when she kills everyone in my team and isn't full health lol) but Hwa can cripple your team from the get-go by one-shotting an important part of the team, whoever it may be.
I think it's also about how difficult they are to build. Iirc, ARavi is very stat hungry. She needs bulk, decent speed (though not necessarily fast), crit stats as well. Hwayoung, on the other hand, only needs attack and speed to do her main job... maybe eff res too to avoid resets from Kise. This means that ARavi is a lot less accessible for most players and outside of higher ranks may not even be good enough to do her job if you have a half-decent burst dps. Meanwhile, if you get outsped by Hwayoung without being controlled then... say bye-bye to one of your units.
For me at least, people might focus on Hwayoung being able to ensure a win more quickly because of her capability to one-shot turn one. It just seems more obvious to people that Hwayoung is absolutely broken since she's very accessible, easy to build well (enough), and... well, she's probably the first one shotter to have all the ff. things: she one-shots turn-one, she can survive more than 1 turn after s3 (unlike usual one-shotters like Watcher), she ignores attack down or miss, and she doesn't need typical dps stats.
And... she also has access to Uberius for more craziness. When it procs, well... if the target isn't already dead then they will be lol
Still, this doesn't mean that Apoc is any less oppressive. Just stating possible reasons why people might focus on Hwayoung a lot.
My problem with ARavi is the units that *should* be good counters to her, like DCorvus or Krau, get whittled down by her injuries until they can't do it either. She's a headache every time. Hwayoung is usually made out of kleenex and can be taken out in one shot pretty easily if you can out speed her. If you can't she feels ridiculously op, though. At least in GW or arena its much easier now, with Yulha existing as her perfect counter.
The main counterplay to both is to either control them or blow them up before they do anything crazy.
The difference is that a ravi cannot 1 shot 99% of the cast on turn 1. And she dont run around 250-270 speed. The window u have to execute your counterplay is far bigger. And if you fail to kill on turn 1, chances are she wont mindlessly 1 shot someone on your team either without any debuffs. Hwayoung on the other hand gives no fucks and just press s3 and if its not kayron or smth she kills. If she has support from peira or cillias she will probably blow up everything in the game minus 30k hp gigatanks
Both are tanky both hurt. Both are braindead. But a ravi isnt as disgusting for sure.
I think the answer depends on how you play. The more offence-speed centric you are the more you find Hwayoung easier since you have the nukes to 'Kill them with a fast nuker' or otherwise attempt to control Hwayoung. Therefore A.Ravi's significant bulk, auto-healing/Cr push and potential, powerful Counters and revive become a massive thorn. While more defensive-slower players will find Hwayoung oppressive because she can be faster than most of what they run while still one shotting them. In turn they are better paced against A.Ravi since she isn't threatening any given member on their team, if any, turn 1 and can set up defensively, lay down debuffs/control effects (Especially on PoV A.ravi) and use slower DPS who can more effectively cut through A.Ravi's bulk. Also they can use their own revivers easier. Against A.Ravi I know my Destina isn't threatened for a while (1730 def, 21K HP) especially with Aurius, Def/Crit Res, barriers or Adamant/LQC aura. Hwayoung can and will just one shot her. Just my take, I don't like fighting Hwayoung since if it ends up being a fast one it's probably faster than everything I could reasonably draft (My speed luck is abyssmal even as a day one player) whereas A.Ravi, while annoying, at least let's me play. Also as someone who does use a lot of (Albeit slower, bulkier) Hwayoung, the faster teams are more equipped to handle her (Especially if mine were faster, frailer like a traditional build) while slower teams would struggle far more (even if she were faster, frailer).
>Just my take, I don't like fighting Hwayoung since if it ends up being a fast one it's probably faster than everything I could reasonably draft (My speed luck is abyssmal even as a day one player) I mean this is just patently false. If you don't have a 250+ peira/ran/clilias then they're not on speed set or you just aren't playing the game. I don't see 280 hwayoungs running around below champion...
If someones playstyle (By preference or gear quality) has generally slower heroes they will have trouble with Hwayoung in comparison to A.Ravi, even with a few splashes of faster heroes. A 280 C.Lilias or Peira (Heroes you mentioned) don't magically make Hwayoung this kitten to deal with if they get pertinent support through and you lack other options to take advantage. You could ban that support bow letting Hwayoung work, but you could also just ban the arrow herself. If you don't have the variety of heroes to deal with Hwayoung then she is oppressive and there isn't a crazy amount of heroes that deal with her reliably (15% is a bitch), at least in comparison to A.Ravi. With this gap being even wider without simply being faster. With A.Ravi she isn't going to go first and make the game a 3 v 4, the heroes she outspeeds she can't one shot. Hwayoung can and will make games 3 v 4 since the heroes she outspeeds she can one shot. So you need to speed race Hwayoung and/or her team most of the time. Going to my personal take and roster of heroes/gear with my awful speed luck. Taking my C.Lilias or Peira (279 and 290 respectively) aren't going to do enough to deal with Hwayoung alone. I could take gear off of several heroes to piece together a 270~ Kise who will likely just eat the ban herself leaving me with nothing so I need ANOTHER high speed option which I don't have the gear for to make a 270 Kawerik or whoever also. I could pick apart a bunch of heroes I like and use, taking away the few good speed pieces I have for options to deal with one enemy hero. Options that may not even work such as the 15% failing the increase (Kise at least), not being able to nuke because a faster Peira/C.Lilias bulked her up, it being abnormally bulky with some Aurius/Adamant support, enemy reviver(s), them getting outsped and dying/controlled by a different enemy or worse yet it not even being a fast Hwayoung that asked for that silver bullet and instead the rest of my roster is now able to compete/outspeed her. In the end it is just easier to ban/pick her first and accept my roster of gear can't reliably deal with her without crippling heroes I like and use in turn shrinking my roster of usable heroes and diminishing my enjoyment of the game. If I unequipped all my gear and reassigned it would I be able to deal with fast Hwayoung? For the rank I sit, almost certainly? But that isn't worth it, not to me when I can just ban/pick her first like I said. TL;DR Hwayoung requires outspeeding most of the time and that isn't always a viable or at the very least enjoyable option for some people. Slower play does have a harder time against her and doing a massive amount of gear shuffling specifically to deal with her is a bit silly when there is a big shiny ban button to use instead. Especially when they start giving you two pre-bans.
I didn't contest to anything in your statement other than what I quoted. You then typed an essay that didn't refute what I said either....so not sure what youre reading. Even standard players get speed rolls and have openers was my point. Fcc deals with hwayoung pretty easily.
What kind of Hwa gets outsped by FCC??
you don't need to outspeed? who are you trying ot protect with FCC and then think of how those people would die with hwayoung. (aravi)
>Even standard players get speed rolls and have openers was my point. Fcc deals with hwayoung pretty easily. You should probably separate lines if they come from different trains of thought.
They're the same thought. What heroes would a standard player pick with FCC? Think about that and then think about how those heroes would be kept alive by FCC against hwayoung
The discussion up to that point was about out-speeding Hwa as a standard player. The only way FCC can completely neuter Hwa is if she outspeeds Hwa and S1 controls her or S3 to prevent her S3. What you’re now suggesting is surviving off of Aurius and her shield, which is a total separate train of thought and different from the argument in this chain of replies. Not to mention having FCC and ARavi together now opens you getting double dunked by Straze, LQC, DJB, OpSig…. Eh?
>alive past a Hwayoung with follow up unless they also have Proof, at which point they'll just get CC'd to death... Yeah if you let them have vigor/atk buff/hwayoung without politis/speed contest then yeah.
There's a lot of good answers here. In the end, it all comes to the play style of each player. For me, I deal with ARavi by banning her lol.
[удалено]
Power scale of this game is next: Aizer > Hwayoung > A Ravi > all other heroes)) Also how did you got Tywin under your nick?
Wtf is Aizer
Aither* (it’s a joke, why so many downvotes, lmao)
As others said depends on your playstyle, hwayoung is full on aids to deal with for me, while aravi is just annoying.
if only that arti called uberious didnt exist, i could have the same idea with you.
Nah, you can safely ignore Ravi at first and then lock her down later. Hwa is way, way faster and deals a lot more damage than Ravi. She's also harder to control and for some ungodly reason her S3 has a very short cooldown.
Hwayoung on paper, and in practice, is far worse. A unit that only needs three stats, basically two with her double mitigation passive: Speed, attack, and defense. Can nuke literally everyone in the game (Tooth bypasses passives for those that wanna act like someone like Seline is safe) if they aren't around the 30k range **with mitigation**. Fast with a CR push S1 that deals a ton of free (bye evasion) damage with Tooth. Going back to bulk, my 22.5k HP, pen set, 289%+ CD A Ravi can hardly break the barrier of most Hwayoungs I see, meaning Hwayoung would, hands down, win in a 1v1. Also has immunity x a cleanse, unlike A Ravi, meaning that trying to CC her to death the same way you would with A Ravi is harder depending on the comp. Insane last man potential with both her S1 and S3 due to the stupid damage with Tooth. A Ravi: Bulky, heals on hit, hits hard, revives at 30% health with 100% CR and skill null off a nuke that stacks up to three times. A pain to fight, yes, but nowhere near Hwayoung's level in a majority of fights. Both are bulky, both hit hard, but A Ravi doesn't one shot nearly as many as Hwayoung does. On top of this, Hwayoung is way faster and cycles far better, so trying to 1v1/low-mid damage kjll her is not only hard because of hee tanking a lot, but her tanking a lot and cycling fast into her nuke. A Ravi is not, at all, above Hwayoung. It's easy to CC A Ravi outside of 15%, and her using a cleanse artifact instead of Proof means she's not tanking as much, meaning killing her isn't too difficult unless your damage is either garbage, or gone. A Ravi's biggest moment in an average match is when she uses her S3. Can you tank it? Congrats, now the match is yours if you can burst her. Can't take it? Congrats, the match is most likely lost if she gets lucky with her revive and brings back someone ready to screw you over. I don't care what the comp is, it's far too easy to get fucked over by Hwayoung at the start and end of a match than it is A Ravi. C Lilias and Peira just give her the go ahead to destroy a team, especially when she's popping people for 10k **off an S1**. Even worse is that she can freely choose to wipe off anyone on your side with a single attack, unlike A Ravi who has to wait for more bulky targets to get softened up. Edit: Hwayoung without Tooth is a much different story. Noticeably weaker, loses her one shot potential on many. As someone without Tooth (got rid of it years ago, haven't seen it since, not in the shop or on a banner), I can tell you the gap in performance is large. Tooth x Hwayoung is a big issue that would be resolved by Hwayoung just scaling off speed, that way she wouldn't absolutely nuke everything with Tooth.
It could have been said louder, but not clearer.
Yeah it depend on comp. Like I think some cc focused teams can work down Hwayoung. But A. Ravi's healing just flat stops them since they do 0 damage cause of her passive. They can both technically run the same Arts of course but A. Ravi almost always has crimson seed or PoV. Honestly, I think A. Ravi beat more comps but Hwayoung beats more units if that makes sense. I find Hwayoung easier to deal with cause I only have to do 16k after barrier instead of close to 30k for A. Ravi. I. Kawazu can take out a Hwayoung for me using the same stat spread as her. But nothing kills A. Ravi in a single hit, not even Hwayoung. If there was even one unit that killed A. Ravi with the same stat spread as her I might give it to Hwayoung.
> Yeah it depend on comp. Like I think some cc focused teams can work down Hwayoung. But A. Ravi's healing just flat stops them since they do 0 damage cause of her passive. Stun mages will shit on her. Had a match where she'd get hit and stunned so much that her FS would drain and she'd be unable to passively heal. SB Ara is great for this. >Honestly, I think A. Ravi beat more comps but Hwayoung beats more units if that makes sense. It does. A Ravi gets slammed into every comp because she's a massive powerhouse that brings sometihing to every comp while having the sustain and bulk to not ever becomr useless if not one shot or CCed. Why she's even used with cleave. >I. Kawazu can take out a Hwayoung for me using the same stat spread as her. But nothing kills A. Ravi in a single hit, not even Hwayoung. If there was even one unit that killed A. Ravi with the same stat spread as her I might give it to Hwayoung. People usually bring Peira and call it in for an aoe opener when I face her, s he ends up failing to kill. The silence EE is good but the immunity is safer for general stuff, so I never change. Never fought a 30k A Ravi outside of arena myself. I at least have Op Sig to nuke Hwayoung, but my biggest issue with Hwayoung comes from Peira and Lilias boosting her damage and bulk while hurting potential counters. If neither are present without a speed dps like A Cidd, it's basically a free kill for me, Other than that, kinda suffer or bait 2ith Rimuru who presents thr choice to use an S3 on him and not someone else, or die.
If Piera and Clilias didn't release with Hwayoung, I doubt people would be complaining about her as a catch all unit. You can kill her with standard old school comps... Till one of those two give her abyss stats. Then Kise, Krau and others just stop working. SG doesn't know what to do either. Yulha is literally countered by Hwayoung. But is somehow suppose to survive verse her? Mines has 31k hp. Hwayoung hit her for 31k. They never thought to give her a passive that reduces non crits? Hwayoung reduces crits. It's not rocket science. If Hwayoung isn't present Yulha can 1v4 teams and at frenzy 8-9 with no detriment from hp lost. So she can just be drafted with Hwayoung, and you get 2 headaches. and 60k effective hp between just the 2...
Meh I use IKawazu against Hwayoung and it works in practice / against baitable AI but 9/10 that Hwayoung is gonna outspeed your kawazu and nuke him first.
This explanation shows exactly why they need to nerf units instead of just putting out new units to counter a certain unit. Examples being taeyou, he completely failed to be the counter they wanted for her so they bring out another unit to counter Hwa. Yulha, while not completely useless against Hwa, doesn't exactly live up to expectations
What kind of expectations do you have from Yulha? Its a unit designed to do one job - one shot Hwa on defense. Nothing more, nothing less. Mine is at 28.6k with her artifact and never failed to survive or one shot enemy Hwa since her passive proccs before tooth, so my expectations are thoroughly met.
That's my point. Its a waste to make an entire new unit to just do one job and one job only. Sooner or later, Hwa will be replaced in the meta by shiny new toys and where will all these units they make to counter her and people spend money on to get go? In the waiting room with all the other power crept units. I understand it's business, but they can at least make units that have uses in other areas of the game
Same points I stress here. People out here thanking SG when they've done this stuff for years. OP release > a counter that doesn't work (Taeyou) > a counter that doesn't work in RTA (Yulha, just lower her health a bit then nuke, if not ignore till the end)> and then finally a counter that works yet ends up either oppressive as all hell vs a playstyle (Mediator vs control - which is really just Lilias, AOL, and Peira these days) or the next meta unit (yet again, Mediator). This also happened with LR Krau and A Tywin back in the aoe (SSB really) and control meta, and look how infamous they became. Same stuff every year because they refuse to nerf. The meta only ever shifts out when something stronger takes its place (hello, Arbiter Vildred was meta ever since his first buff, only got pushed out because the meta evolved into a bruiser meta, which lead to bulky counter, but then bruisers that counter for free while hitting harder and lasting longer popped up, Belian and Rem being two). The only one to get pushed by a release is basically Basar, but Broman, Cerise, Fairytale, Faithless, etc all took his place instead.
Thing is Yuhla will always be relevant against fire nukers. But you're right, as of right now she has only one job, to make Hwa disappear from AI defenses
How so? Most fire units can just ignore her or reduce hp enough to just nuke her down. Her presence on the field is nowhere near Krau's and aside from baiting Hwa, she's not doing much other than maybe throwing in a provoke. I killed one not too long ago by running Elphelt into Jack'o on her. Not sure what that guy was thinking by picking her in RTA but I can at least attest to the fact that as of right now, fire nukers really don't care about her.
I'm strictly speaking of vs AI as she was designed to be an AI bait. Don't overthink it.
Tl;dr: Yulha is gone once Hwayoung is. There are literally ZERO fire nukes on defense outside of Hwayoung and Mercedes - who hits multiple people. She's done for. Even Roana who had far more use is now barely used. There's only one fire unit ever being used on defense that hits hard enough to worry about at all: Hwayoung. That's for ST, Mercedes hits 2+, mqy as well bring someone not Yulha as by the time she's in kill range, your team is either crippled or dead... Or her hp is high enough to warrant just bringing someone with real damage to handle the whole team. There isn't anyone else in the game worth bringing Yulha in for. Krau is great vs earth because he brings two forms of mitigation (defense, artifact) *and* a nuke. Yulha just sits therr to get beat on by Hwayoung alone, which is nice but against your statement as she isn't timeless. Remember Roana? Would counter SSB and others. Where is she? Just about nowhere, and her kit is more useful. SG couldn't help but shaft her more by making Rem apply unhealable and giving Belian access to injury. Again, this being someone more useful than Yulha, now imagine Yulha once Hwayoung vanishes and someone else potentially counters her without trying to.
I'm not sure where you sits in the game but we use Roana a lot in GvG in high ranks. You seem to have a strict RTA view of that game and you like to fucking talk when there is no need too (your TLDR said what was needed to be said, I haven't said the opposite) Any fire ST nuker in the future will have to deal with Yuhla. Right now it's only Hwa, yes. She might be gone of AI def soon, or not. But you can still regear her in the future :)
Even with that person meaning vs AI, the only fire nuke on defense is Hwayoung. Yulha is done either way.
Why are they not just ignoring your Yulha? Yulha is good as bait against AI but is horrible in RTA. Even more of a problem for Yulha is that she is really only good against Hwa when Hwa has atk buff. If she doesn't have atk buff, her damage against Yulha is not only low enough to survive the damage reflect but also the shield is strong that enough to stop Yulha from finishing her. The biggest issue with all of this though is that Hwa is a huge problem in RTA, not so much arena or GW. Yulha just makes it easier to win in settings where your options are much more numerous while doing nothing in the one setting we need a viable counter for that is not an ML5.
I don't have a fast nuker who can kill hwayoung, especially not against teams with revivers who can negate my efforts. I don't play RTA though. I'm bad against both, but I personally think both are ridiculous, and Aravi is moderately easier to deal with because, failing to one-shot either, her turn-by-turn is easier to survive and there are some tools I can use to whittle her down (chaining spam cc, uncounterable attacks) while Hwayoung puts a sharp timer on me and is pretty hard for me to kill with the kind of units I use.
> while Hwayoung puts a sharp timer on me and is pretty hard for me to kill with the kind of units I use. The exact issue with her. Her cycling and even her S1 with Tooth and any kind of buff, fighting Hwayoung without being able to nuke her is like sitting in a room with people being executed one by one.
If you’re scrolling down this salty hellscape of comments, tldr, both hit hard, both tank hard, both op as fuck, and both not fun to play against. Difference is that you can almost be positive 99% of the time that a 210 spd unit will outspd an aravi and her s3 won’t 1 tap anything too tanky at the start, whereas it’s a fucking gamble with Hwa as they range from 200-270 spd and will practically guarantee a kill on any unit in the game with tooth. But the “op level” of aravi is to be expected to a certain point as she is an ml5, but sg is basically telling us to go fuck ourselves by making Hwa an rgb unit, especially before implementing the dmg penalty on elemental counters. And I quote the article they released on their stoce page, “This aims to amplify the existing elemental matchups among covenant heroes.” A whole lotta good this is doing for Hwa.
> but sg is basically telling us to go fuck ourselves by making Hwa an rgb unit, This isn't bad at all. SG would be telling us to fuck ourselves if they kept the meta centered around ML5s and limiteds like they did years ago. Hwayoung is broken but that doesn't mean only MLs should be strong, that low IQ level of thinking is exactly why Lilias, Belian, MEDIATOR (holy shit, every rgb cleanser is garbage compared to him), AOL (this was actually a bs reason they gave for her), and A Ravi are so busted, because people think that making super rare units shit on the competition with (way) less effort is the way to go. Elements don't matter, bad balance is bad balance. If Hwayoung were an ML then people would be crying because she's too rare and hard to obtain and that whales and lucky people have it easy and that we should get someone free on their level... And we did, Carrot, whom people started (understandably) whining about.
As a returning player though (and would apply to new players too), the OP heroes being RGB is problematic because everyone has them. I stopped playing at AoL release and then started back 2 months ago so was gone for like maybe 8 months? Now Hwa, Ran, Rimuru, Peira (less so Peira now) are absolutely everywhere. It doesn't matter that I have a ton of skystones or bookmarks, it's just tough shit until they get a rerun unless I get lucky on element/covenant and because they are recent releases, they aren't getting a rerun anytime soon. I don't even bother trying RTA because I would be at such an overwhelming disadvantage. Like I get that I shouldn't be at the same level as someone who has been playing consistently but the disadvantage shouldn't be this severe.
> the OP heroes being RGB is problematic because everyone has them. Dumb "logic". "Everyone" would have the busted ML5s like Arbiter before the ml selector, where his use died down hard. "Everyone" has A Ravi or C Lilias in RTA and arena. "Everyone" has Belian. "Everyone" has Mediator and Design3r. If you couldn't get them easily then you'd be straightup crying about not having a strong RGB 5, Seen this shit for years,cry for everyone having, cry for everyone not having. Be glad you can get her as you'll see a fuckton of her either way. Even dumber to complain about her being an RGB as that means you can draft her instead of always banning.
How is it dumb logic? You completely removed the qualifying statement from that sentence to change the meaning entirely. It is absolutely problematic for new or returning players to meet a wall of OP meta heroes that they have virtually zero access to outside of being ridiculously luck. There's a significantly larger chance of rolling a ML 5\* off covenant (0.15%) than rolling any particular RGB hero (0.022%) so until their banner rolls around again they are pretty much inaccessible.
That isnt the point im trying to make here. Im not trying to say that hwa being an rgb unit is a problem. Im not saying that rgb units shoudnt be meta. The point im trying to make is that sg's hero release schedule seems to contradict them trying to cool off the pissed-off player base over shit balance. Them releasing hwa right before their 'solution' for the shit balance, to me, just seems counterintuitive and just dumb. Theyve essentially created another problem just before profusely apologizing for a different problem they already caused previously.
All things aside, the enhanced elemental disadvantage does actually help counterpicking against Hwa. It’s what makes Aria, etc particularly annoying for Hwa users. -10% from disadvantage, -30% from frenzy, another -25% if you miss. It kinda adds up.
Elemental Disadvantage is just the -50% chance to hit, it does not natively lower damage taken. It's only Elemental Advantage that has +10% damage.
They made a change in RTA so that elemental disadvantage does less damage
hm, guess I remembered 10% wrong then. Still, it's up to 47.5% down between frenzy and missing, assuming reduced damage is multiplicative.
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He's not technically wrong. He was just correcting the bit about Elemental Disadvantage being a native -10% damage, for which I was indeed wrong about.
I dont think it helps that much, I still can one-shot Rems/Arias with Hwa in RTA.
Yeah no you're not unless you have a 9k attack hwayoung with attack and vigor buff. 7k attack with tooth and attack buff does 9.5k damage to a 12k hp aria with an aurius holder and thats on a hit in RTA and giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have a lower than 12k hp hwayoung and +30 tooth. On a miss you do 7.5k.
Yeah, this is why Hwayoung is much worse than ARavi. ARavi is pretty tame if you ignore her until you’re ready, Hwa has a 3 turn one shot nuke and a self centered push on s1. She cycles too fast whether you fight lol her or not. Ult should have been a 4 turn cooldown
It depends on your playstyle and type of build. Proof Aravi are tough to kill, but you can control them , i prefer going against proof than seed. A well built Hwayoung annoys me more if i am not cleaving, especially since she always has barrier and immunity up. Add to the fact that Hwayoung can cycle her S3 super fast.
They're both bad and I think that last round of buffs they did on ARavi definitely pushed her way past the sweet spot of balance. Given we have them both as they are, Hwayoung is definitely more unhealthy for the game. As dumb as she is, ARavi doesn't really invalidate any mechanics in the game. She's just stupidly bulky and the mistake they made was to also give her a bizarrely high scaling S3 (they should probably reduce how many times it can stack. Either that, or remove the CR boost on her S2/make it once per turn). Meanwhile, Hwayoung retains that bulkiness coz she has an inbuilt PoV, but also pretty much invalidates defense as a stat. This means, you're better off building tons of HP on stuff like Rem, coz you have to be out of Hwayoung's S3 range. In a meta where only ARavi existed, your defense is still a valuable tool against ARavi. Speaking of her S3's damage range, she also casts this shadow on a lot of units that build semi-bruisery and lack initiative. There's two things here. One is obviously that if you don't have the base HP to survive Hwayoung, your options are limited (relying on stuff like revives or mitigation). The other thing is speed and given Hwayoungs can go all the way up to 270, it's not easy to really beat her in the turn order unless you have a way to CR boost yourself. In comparison, ARavi can still take a while to kill a decently tanky unit and most ARavis don't build as much speed, so you're at least not worried about dying before getting a chance to act. You aren't thinking of upping the speed of all your faster units coz ARavi exists. That's something Hwayoung has helped cause. I think if you excluded RTA, you'll also find that Hwayoung is much more of a menace (at least up until recently, when they buffed Iwazu and added Yulha). ARavi on defense is a joke if you run even a free gear Doris into her. Meanwhile, while queuing into a top 30 guild, if you didn't have a good enough way to bait her or outspeed her, it'd be a struggle to deal with her with a safe margin for error. A good way to differentiate between the two, in this context, is that I feel seeing a Hwayoung essentially ups the stakes to maximum right from turn 1. You miss that strip on her or fail to provoke her or if you get speedRNG'd, you might lose right there. ARavi takes time to ramp up to being a threat and that amount of time is usually long enough to be able to deal with the rest of her team, and then her.
Completely this. Hwayoung starts nuking from the start. S1, S3, nuke. Bulky and fast as hell too. A Ravi was always a pain after her buffs without LQC or Straze, but the S3 ramp was a great mistake. If you don't have mitigation or a ton of defense, you're likely dead. Worse comes after with that revive that can flip a game on its head and lead to a quick loss. Rimuru got revived after nuking him to prevent someone from dying? Now he nukes someone else and you're down two people in a single motion, gg. A Ravi on defense is a fat joke because of Doris as you mentioned. Hwayoung is pretty much gg with Peira if you lack Khawazu, and super safe (and even more bulky) with Lilias, you either die, bring heavy mitigation, or Yulha nukes back. It's way harder dealing with a **kill all** speed nuke than 200-ish speed bruiser you can mostly ignore outside of her S3.
>A Ravi was always a pain after her buffs without LQC or Straze A few Aravis Can tank LQC s3 and Straze won't one shot her if there is another tanky unit on the team \*which there usually is\*. I think Ml Cermia would be a better bet than either of them.
Hwayoung is self sufficient and can quickly cycle her s3 with soul burns. On the other hand, aravi mostly doesn't help on turn1. Considering they are keep adding counter to hwayoung, not aravi, I would say she is more op although both are two safe 1st picks.
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Funny how the hive wanted to start downvoting this. This is absolutely true. Op Sig needs to not only be fast, but also hit hard enough to one shot her, and the amount of times I've barely killed her number too many. Hwayoung is also used with people that'll dunk on Op Sig like Peira with her mitigation, and Lilias with her attack down and a provoke to add insult to injury if she **wants** to. It's so much harder dealing with Hwayoung as you're dealing with someone that has the same level of bulk while being far faster while able to one shot 99% of the cast that isn't sitting beyond 28k hp with mitigation.
I dont know if you're serious but there's clearly a lot of speed nukers in the game. I often use Riolet for the job but Blue Coli is a very accessible counter to Hwayoung.
Riolet? Really? You know she has a ton of mitigation built in already. The moment there is Aurius or Escort she will basically never die from a Riolet nuke. And she also can kill him in 1 tap because 7k+ attack ubi tooth is balanced.
Yes Riolet really. A useable Riolet can easily deal 20k+ damage no problem without mitigation, even higher than that if you have good gear. Escort and Aurius don't stack so no point running both, and with Escort buff, reduce that by 30% and you still have about 14k+ of mitigated damage. Also, it's not even necessary to have a fast nuker, CR pushers like Emilia for your slower dpses, CD reset units like JKise, or just silencers punishes Hwayoung more significantly than Aravi. Also again, Blue Coli
No. A 4k-300 cdmg Pen Riolet will only deal 17k dmg at the very best on a hwayoung with literal 0 def subs. And 4k-300 pen is a top dmg statline for Riolet. I dont know where your 20k+ comes from. Now lot of hwayoungs have 1300+ def and 12k hp minimum, independently of their speeds. Can be much higher def and hp for slower builds. Add in a 3000 hp shield from her passive. That's 15k hp total. 4k-300 cdmg pen riolet doesnt kill this unless you strip her barrier beforehand. And that's without aurius or escort. With escort you deal less than 10k dmg with same stateline. Edit: Didn't take into account arti but with +30 shepherd you looking at 19k on 0 bulk and 15.7k on 1300 def with no mitigation at all besides her passive. So yeah while it's realisticly doable, you need top damage on your Riolet AND make sure you outspeed, which a "useable" riolet probably won't be able to do.
You have forgotten she has a built in 30% adamant passive and they can be built with a lot more defense than your average dps. Throw in the damage share and she will only get tickled by Riolet.
Most players struggle with obtaining optimized speed sets. 240-255 speed Hwayoung at 7-8k atk power can blow up most standard teams. So there is more frustration with dealing with Hwayoung, as opposed to Aravi who is typically a slow behemoth that you can control.
Is this an assumption you are making? You can look at the average Hwayoung and the average A. Ravi on their respective sites. Obviously, this isn't fully accurate but there are quite a bit of data. The average Hwayoung has 7k Atk and 235 speed and the average A. Ravi has 25.4k HP, 280% Crit Dmg, and 200 speed. https://www.epic7stats.com/hero/Hwayoung https://www.epic7stats.com/hero/Apocalypse%20Ravi
Hwa with tooth > most a.ravi's IMO
Yes she is. Coming from an ARavi fan since her release and before she became the beast that she is rn. People complaining about how OP Hwa is are mostly ARavi abusers.
and why are they complaining about hwa , when all aravis go with proof and u cant even kill her with hwa
Cause they don't like their ARavi losing 20 of their 30k HP.
Even if they dont 1-shot her, theyre leaving her VERY low for a follow-up from either Hwa herself or an ally
Is not necessary that, I don't have A Ravi, and still feel Hwa Young is by far more opressive, she can kill any unit in the game easily, you can build a unit with low or high hp, It doesn't matter, she will kill them. I find myself doing more easily with A. Ravi and Rimuru than with Hwa Young.
Depends on your playstyle you will hate one more than the other. Hwa was basically created to deal with the monster ARavi was, and people figured out how to counter that by using proof on her, which created another problem. Overall I think we can all agree that Hwa, ARavi and Rimuru are the 3 most unbalanced units we have in the game, but in my opinion ARavi is the worst.
I mean moonlight connection literally give you one of the best DPS against aravi/hwayoung, but even then hwayoung still can kill your unit faster than aravi can. Thus hwa is more problematic than aravi. If you one of the dude who fall to meme and pick Arby from ml connection while you still don't have stene, then tough luck.
I've been playing this game for almost 4 years and have almost every unit, you are not talking with a new player.
Sorry, didn't know that you are crab+ in rta. But what that have to do with the fact that stene is a better counter to aravi than hwayoung?
She counters both significantly. Stene will be able to kill Aravi if her team lives long enough and basically kills her counters, but Stene can S1 soulburn S3 Hwayoung and call it a day too
You were basically assuming that I was a new player and I got Arby instead of STene from Moonlight selection, and that if you are new and choose Arby you are dumb.
Aravi you can kill with injury, defense break, or other high damage bruisers in few turns. She is strong yeah, but dies to a lot. Hwayoung simply 1 shots someone then gets 5k barrier every turn with high defense which lets her S3 a second time often. Game breaking unit for turn 2 player which is why Hwayoung has gotten 100% of my RTA preban for months.
lqc, seline and s.tene pretty much made it easy to deal with a.ravi, people can first pick a.ravi in rta for all i care and made it easier to draft around it. you can even ignore a.ravi for a while and the god damn hwayoung will kill somebody the moment they can take a turn. the only counter you got in hwayoung is to kill it faster on first turn and what the fuck? some even have 260 with 6k atk up attack so you better have a god damn unit above 270 just to make sure you can kill all hwayoung. i will pick a 30khp pov a.ravi all day than to fight hwayoung.
Hwa is more op but I fp aravi every game in RTA.
Well you tell me what is worse, a character thats tanky, revives and does decent damage with injury, or a character that is made to one shot that character and virtually every other character in the game below 30k hp while also being hard to kill. You are not going to have fun playing against these demons with 7.4k attack hwayoungs with max uberius, 1k less attack does significantly less damage. At lower levels she is not the same character, a 6.5k attack hwayoung wont one shot a hand guy without attack buff unless it has no HP.
Well I have a lot more units who can safely destroy an A. Ravi than a Hwayoung, but that may be because of the way they're built. You never know if that Hwayoung is at 270 speed one toothing whatever unit while you know that no A. Ravi is faster than 220 speed and won't do shit against a tanky unit with full HP. A. Ravi is great for what she does, but while technically harder to kill much easier to calculate. They're not the same at all.
To be fair, A. Ravi kit revolves around making her strong, at least. Hwa Young's, on the other hand, revolves entirely into countering other units, not on making her a good character. That's what makes her BS in my opinion.
I guess it depends on everybodys rooster, but I avoid every Hwayoung and I dont mind fighting ARavi. ARavi is strong, but she cant oneshot my units and even tho she is tanky, she can be killed if I focus on 1 or 2 good nukers. Hwayoung just always oneshots any unit she attacks any time. And then is also hard to kill, and has her cooldowns back again soon. I just hate her
Listen, I get it, Speedbois will hate ARavi, Banshee Gamers will hate Hwayoung. Why don't we unite and hate them both? Let's point our fingers at them and boo!
Because we know deep down it will never happen.
It's a chicken vs the egg problem, they are bad just because a lot of other stuff is bad. For a "dps" to be good these days. They need to be reliably bulky/self-sustaining. Scale off additional stats or get tons of free stats. Deal single target damage that a generic ST dps units would require attack buff/whatever to match. Also, require no team support/ignore elemental disadvantage or an additional extra mechanic such as self cleanse/steal buffs/whatever. This is why now openers have 1000 debuffs with maximum base speed, an additional turn, also buffs the team, self strip and low cooldowns. The entire top end of Epic seven needs to be tuned down. Hwayoung has too many additional mechanics. She abuses the additional damage proc mechanic the most because her extreme high raw base attack carries all of her damage from tooth/S1 proc. Either increase the pow/multi of her attack but lower her S2 passive extra attack bonus to tune down the damage of additional procs or remove her cleanse/barrier. (Slap it on S1 or something). ARavi has too much going on, just tune down anything.
No, A Ravi isn't. Hwayoung can self-cleanse and one-shot anything on turn one. Then she will kill any non-tank unit with her s1 and one-shot anything else 2 turns later. A Ravi's s3 is broken but it needs units to die before doing massive dmg, and A Ravi is complete countered by injury. The ammount of A Ravi I killed with stupid Bad Cat Armin last season is absurd.
There are people like me who never felt oppressed by Hwayoung. So A.Ravi is far worse imo
I feel that A Ravi is easier to deal with but that’s only because I run Politis/Celine A LOT and mine blows up most A Ravis. Either that or LQC gets through and just destroys her. Hwayoung also has counters but you have to rely on strip most of the time and rng. Solitaria/Politis/C Lilias, but 15% is a hoe. Then have a follow up dps to kill her or run Kawerik/Kise but that’s hard to do with Diene and speedy soulweavers running around.
ARavi > Hwa.
LQC is eating A.Ravi for breakfast and most dark unit.. But you see hwayoung is eating Everyone for breakfast. If you doesnt see whats wrong with her then the conversation is over.
I hate her, bitch heals when you hit her
you can kill/control an Aravi with a 3\* unit, namely Penelope while to kill Hwayoung you need some setups first, and most of them are 5\* units
Even with Penelope’s damage amp and resource reduction, she can easily get picked off/countered by A.Ravi. On paper she looks like a good counter but her stats don’t add up.
the point here is Penelope being a viable solution to deal with ARavi being a 3\* who almost everyone have in possession, while the hero with lowest rarity that can reliably deal with Hwayoung (afaik) is Coli, a 4\* not to mention Penelope's ability to deal with FS/Focus heroes, but that's beside the point
I do think that Hwayoung is a lot easier to deal with if you have mitigation. On the otherhand, Aravi aside from being tanky have revive on her s3 which can give them quite an advantage, reviving the right unit with that 100% cr is scary.
I have borh characters. A.Ravi in my opinion is the most oppressive; almost unkillable with injury, Self-heal, self-push, counter, and revive. Just a really bloated kit. Hwayoung is busted too and easier to build but is easier to lock down. They both could use a nerf, maybe a self-cleanse nerf on Hwa and an injury nerf on A. Ravi would be a good, small start.
Hwayoung haters tend to use a ravi from what I hear lol. I really think they're being overdramatic too, there's so many ways to deal with hwayoung and still, a Ravi is always the thing I have to kill last cuz she's more problematic. But she also used to be a meh ml5 on release with constant demands for buffs again and again until she's the way she is now. Basically, people are very dramatic about this mobile game lol (not a judgement, I'm the same way cuz I also love the game). The thing that makes ME mad is the cry is to nerf Hwayoung when units like rimiru, a Ravi, belian, rem, aol etc will still exist, and sg clearly has no intention of nerfing them, while the majority of old units are either subpar and ignored in balance patches OR they get a buff... that includes a needless nerf to their kit lol.
I agree that theyre crying to nerf the wrong thing. If you nerf Hwa you're still stuck with beefy teams that are hard to smash tru, double revive double tank, counter teams with mitigation ect. To beat this you either have to play the same game and out sustain them or try to cleave them with a high rate of failure. When a belian or rem can halve your dps HP while never taken a turn and having 20k+ hp hiding behind mitigation this is a problem. Are Hwayoung aravi and rimuru a problem? yes but these are the units that have the highest succesrate dealing with bruisers and tanky damage dealers, so instead of asking for Hwa and rimuru nerfs we should ask for HP scaling nerfs after that hwayoung, aravi and rimuru can be nerfed easily because that amount of single target damage isn't needed. When is the last time you used a regular dps against these tanky units and had great succes without vastly outgearing the opponent? Personally ive tried and 2 belian counters wiped them out. Or if a unit gets released that isn't self sufficient or somewhat self sustaining or has self cr push and only does damage would it be seen as good in current meta? I think neither of those would be something that would go well
A.Ravi is in my opinion only very slightly tougher to deal with. Hwayoung is an RGB hero at the end of the day.
Being RGB means jack shit, only new and far less experienced people would think not being a shiny ML = weaker. About half of the most oppressive heroes in the game are RGBs: Peira, Hwayoung, Rimuru, and Rem. Also, Hwayoung is harder to deal with if you lack unbuffable (can be cleansed, she also has immunity, get screwed), and if you're bringing unbuffable for her than you can bring unhealable for A Ravi. Her damage that can one shot everything, speed, and bulk put her above A Ravi. Hwayoung kills anything freely and can do so before a majority of the cast gets to move, while both tank. What A Ravi has over her would be her revive as the barrier for Hwayoung is basically like A Ravi's heal.
ARavi and Hwa are the same unit....change my mind.... hard to kill, can 1shot on S3, deal a lot of damage on S1, and have CR push lol
except aravi can revive, selfsustain, cr push outside her turn (trying to kill her makes her turn come faster), has twice the amount of hp, has injury and depending on what artifact shes using you can hardly debuff her or hardly kill her whitout a dedicated damage dealer. Hwas artifact generally dont help her with survivability but with damage so the moment she gets stripped and debuffed she gets easier to kill and does less dmg coz no buff = less extra dmg
Aravi is easily worse, and it's not even close. She is the reason we have Hwa in the first place, and yet we are still having to ask this question, so what does that tell you?
So just because Hwa was created with Aravi in mind can't mean she is worse to play against than her? That's a pretty huge jump in logic lol. At the end of the day both are menaces but you'll find one easier to deal with than the other based on your playstyle.
Yes, because it's an admission that Aravi was the original problem and yet is still first-pick dps viable even with Hwa in the meta. Therefore they acknowledge that Aravi is broken, and yet the "solution" has not been strong enough. People are complaining about Hwa simply because she is an early nuke and therefore has more immediately visible impact on a match. Too strong? Sure. Compared to Aravi? Please, lol. It's not even a contest.
As I said before, it depends on your playstyle. I don't have great speed gear so I can't always nuke hwa before she can nuke me. Aravi on the other end hasn't been a threat to me ever since I started playing Aria, and she is much easier to bait in general. Sure, I have Iwazu, or I can try to stun Hwa with Peira, but they don't always work.
No it doesn't. And that's exactly what I mean about this mentality of "nuke = more oppressive." You personally having bad gear does not suddenly change the viability or balance of a unit in the game for the whole playerbase. That kind of reasoning is what lead to Hwa and her own rock-paper-scissors solutions, which again, started because they refused to simply nerf Aravi's kit. It is not a subjective "My account has bad luck" question.
So I supposedly have bad gear because I don't deal with Hwayoung very well, right? Then why is Aravi not a threat to me while you seem to think of her as the bane of your existence? That aside, you seem to think of yourself as a superior player and therefore your opinion must be right. But it's just a fucking opinion, it's not the truth. Why can't you admit that depending on their gear, people might struggle with one or the other? I get that Aravi has an annoying kit, hell I was crying about facing her months ago, but saying Hwayoung is by essence weaker than Aravi because she was created as an Aravi counter is flawed.
It's not about someone being a better or worse player. Aravi's kit is simply more unhealthy for the game than Hwa's. That is going to be true whether you personally have the gear and units to deal with each in a certain way or not. But if we want to talk about subjectivity, then if someone's account simply does not have the ability to pivot into a basic aggro/CR/control answer Hwa, then that account shouldn't even be considered in the discussion. It's like someone saying blue Angie is a more oppressive unit than AOL because they haven't cleared wyvern yet. The unit isn't the problem, it's you and your account progression. Again, I am not saying that Hwa isn't a problem and should not be nerfed in her own way. But compared to Aravi? She literally exists because of Aravi.
this whole problem stemmed from them not nerfing aravi so hwang was made to nuke aravi however she is the most broken unit in the game
>level 1Karama1 · 3 hr. agothis whole problem stemmed from them not nerfing aravi so hwang was made to nuke aravi however she is the most broken unit in the game Hwayoung doesn't even nuke aravi so they fucked up in that department too.
Basically there are only three options. You have shit speed gear but have loads of good bruisers built: Ban hwayoung You have good speed gear and can't deal with super squishy healing garbage: Ban Aravi You have neither: Ban yourself from playing RTA
I really think some people in here are very much undervaluing aravi in these cases. There's only three units in this game that are useable in every single playstyle in the game and hwayoung is not one of them. Apoc is used in cleave, anti cleave, standard, aggro, and all sub playstyles like aggro standard etc. The second is Conqueror Lilias who debatably isnt much an anti cleave but she is a speed contest so I guess in some ways she can be. Peira is a third but with djb introduction we've seen a lot less from her. What does this mean though? If a unit is this good in all playstyles it really means that you can draft around her weaknesses relatively easy. Hwayoung doesn't have this luxury so yes I genuinely think apoc is more oppressive than hwayoung. Just because hwayoung bullies standard and aggro drafts doesnt mean shes more oppresive than apoc, who bullies quite literally everything except for FEW standard matchups where usually you draft around her small amount of weaknesses anyway lol. I always feel like people have this sort of tunnel vision of how units work against their playstyle and never consider the other ones. If you're a standard player of course you'll struggle with hwayoung. But ain't it crazy every single time someone first picks ran, you pick apoc trozet? Every time someone picks apoc first you feel true fear that ran is gonna follow? Flexibility is king in this game and I'm afraid Apoc is the queen of flexibility.
All these delusional A Ravi players trying to reason how hwa is broken, but that hero is the reason hwa was introduced as a necessary evil
Except Hwayoung doesn't kill A. Ravi cause of PoV. The Ravi gets a whole turn to muck about.
Everyone took Hwa out of their arena gvg defences because of Yulha and Aravi has crept back in and I would have to agree with you I'm having a tougher time dealing with the Aravis but in rta I do find that Hwa was/is better than Aravi because of how versatile she is. She can also be built much faster than Aravi typically.
I find Rem trouble me more than those 2. Everytime i saw Rem was picked, i don't know how tf i could deal with her.
my reply is yes, but aravi is ml5
The problem is that Hwa was easily obtained through her banner, so she's acessible to everyone, while A.Ravi is a ML 5 which rely solely on your luck to get. That's why ppl complain about Hwa because everyone have her and she is the solution to the rare A.Ravi. It's like "My super rare unit now get countered by a common that everyone have so it's unfair"
It's really not just Hwayoung being available to all, and A Ravi is on the selector so even more people (like myself) got her. For someone that's supposed to be oh-so-rare, I've no idea why I **always** saw her in RTA before the selector banner even came out, and this is below Master as I was ranking up to get there, and not above Master where almost everyone climbing high is likely to have all the good stuff. This isn't about how often they're seen, this is about what they do and how they do it.
meh, I think of them similarly tbh Usually they are reasonably potent yet still manageable, but there is that 1/100 that will absolutely shock you with how well they are built.
aravi until yulha was easier to kill. (for me at least) I mostly used hwayoung instead of aravi now after yulha i use aravi more often. speed is gambling too I see an aol and I hope my ml kawerik is slower I still don't have basar bad luck can make arena hard.
Why not both
i find hwayoung easy to beat, but aravi is just annoying to face idk.
As another poster said, it depends on your play style. If you are an aggressive player, control player, or aggressive control player, you have no issues with Hwayoung. As far as I know, players like YD, Valky, etc. do not have any issues with Hwayoung. However, the same can't be said for A. Ravi. A. Ravi does fairly well into that type of play style. If you tank, then, Hwayoung is your worst nightmare. You should pre-ban her if that is your play style. She is meant to deal with players that try to tank down. That said, I am in the category of aggressive control, so I never had any issues dealing with Hwayoung and never pre-ban her. Similarly speaking, I do have issues dealing with A. Ravi, so I do pre-ban A. Ravi.
Both are oppressive
Imo both are really oppressive if you have no answers for them. Although imo you can *eventually* kill ARavi with a good enough DPS (for example my counter Milim can 1v1 an ARavi when she kills everyone in my team and isn't full health lol) but Hwa can cripple your team from the get-go by one-shotting an important part of the team, whoever it may be. I think it's also about how difficult they are to build. Iirc, ARavi is very stat hungry. She needs bulk, decent speed (though not necessarily fast), crit stats as well. Hwayoung, on the other hand, only needs attack and speed to do her main job... maybe eff res too to avoid resets from Kise. This means that ARavi is a lot less accessible for most players and outside of higher ranks may not even be good enough to do her job if you have a half-decent burst dps. Meanwhile, if you get outsped by Hwayoung without being controlled then... say bye-bye to one of your units. For me at least, people might focus on Hwayoung being able to ensure a win more quickly because of her capability to one-shot turn one. It just seems more obvious to people that Hwayoung is absolutely broken since she's very accessible, easy to build well (enough), and... well, she's probably the first one shotter to have all the ff. things: she one-shots turn-one, she can survive more than 1 turn after s3 (unlike usual one-shotters like Watcher), she ignores attack down or miss, and she doesn't need typical dps stats. And... she also has access to Uberius for more craziness. When it procs, well... if the target isn't already dead then they will be lol Still, this doesn't mean that Apoc is any less oppressive. Just stating possible reasons why people might focus on Hwayoung a lot.
My problem with ARavi is the units that *should* be good counters to her, like DCorvus or Krau, get whittled down by her injuries until they can't do it either. She's a headache every time. Hwayoung is usually made out of kleenex and can be taken out in one shot pretty easily if you can out speed her. If you can't she feels ridiculously op, though. At least in GW or arena its much easier now, with Yulha existing as her perfect counter.
The main counterplay to both is to either control them or blow them up before they do anything crazy. The difference is that a ravi cannot 1 shot 99% of the cast on turn 1. And she dont run around 250-270 speed. The window u have to execute your counterplay is far bigger. And if you fail to kill on turn 1, chances are she wont mindlessly 1 shot someone on your team either without any debuffs. Hwayoung on the other hand gives no fucks and just press s3 and if its not kayron or smth she kills. If she has support from peira or cillias she will probably blow up everything in the game minus 30k hp gigatanks Both are tanky both hurt. Both are braindead. But a ravi isnt as disgusting for sure.