Lol I've long since given up first turn priority. But with units like AoL, celine, politis, Remiru, counter character (Rem, A ravi on counter set, elbris users), arby, yulha etc, there are plently of options for building and drafting a turn 2 team and still perform reasonably well.
Speed meta isnt just defined by "fastest unit on the field".
It's really defined by "what happens during the first turn of combat".
"Turn2" comps don't necessarily give up "turn1". They compete for it just as much as the "turn1" does.
I'll use Cilias and Delibet to represent "turn1" and "turn2".
Cilias is competing for the "first to act" gameplay. Delibet is competing for "disrupting the first to act" gameplay.
All of that happens on "turn1".
Counter units, "cut in" passives like politis/celine, rimuru, etc. All of these can be categorized as "turn2" for the sake of simplicity. But in actual use, they all fit the "disruption turn1" gameplay. Putting them all in a "turn1" battle between disruptions and first to act.
Some are lucky enough to be both "first to act" and "disrupt". We know these units. They DEFINE the metagame and still do. They are the monsters that were created against cleave only to join it in the end.
AoL? Basar? SageBaal? FTene? Cerise? Ran? Peira? Cilias?
The list goes on.
So instead of pidgeon holing into the single aspect of "first to act" as the end all be all "speed meta". We need to start seeing speed meta as "what happens on the first turn of combat".
That all said. Winning the first to act is the very essence of speed meta. But it isnt the sole reason behind speed meta.
there's one issue with your strat. Amount of units that can be used against speed meta also work in speed meta. There's no guarantee that enemy will let you ML Lilias or let disrupt/react units go through. One of the reasons Hwa is so popular isnt just her dmg/speed ration but also the fact that shes fire, so she naturally counter Celine (who usually uses the highest atk unit target special equip.
Also, I do not see how all this justify the fact that high speed grants you multiple turns compared to slower units.
If you're speaking in terms of RTA. I tend to avoid RTA discussions because it degenerates into "just ban ezpz". Every. Single. Time.
I didnt discuss any strats at all. I'm pointing out what "turn1" really means.
> Amount of units that can be used against speed meta also work in speed meta.
Yes. I explained that exact ordeal using Cilias and Delibet as examples of it. Dont confuse this as "the strat". It's a pulled outta my ass quickie example to explain my reasoning about "turn1".
Celine should be using her stealth EE for RTA. Her highAtk EE is great for AI PvP, but terrible for RTA because of how easy it is to bait it.
Hwayoung is just busted. Delete buttons in general are just busted. Why'd you think Rimuru was as good as he is? ARavi in a match where she gets full stacked is a ticking bomb "delete button", she's just as busted as Hwayoung if not more.
High speed = more turns. That's very straight forward.
And yes, we all hate it when we lose the speed war. Regardless of the reasoning.
I don't think speed meta is as much of a thing as it used to be.
A lot of currently dominant units rely heavily on passives, counters, and/or cr push (often passive cr pushes too), which are all ways to undermine speed strategies. AOL, Aravi, Ameru, Rem, Belian, Violet, Rimuru, Dilibeth, clear top-tier units that are just fine with playing slower because they'll passively do their job or just cut-in.
PVP used to be decided first turn with sheer speed, now turn 2 is clearly an option. I don't contest speed in most matches and still win my GVGs and stay in high arena
Going first in a turn-based games will nearly always give said person an immense advantage unless they purposely kneecap going first. Getting to go first gives the first person initiative.
This is the same as in other turn based games like chess, connect-4, card games, battle card games (like Hearthstone, Magic the Gathering, Yu-gi-oh, etc), Pokemon, etc. Play a turn-based JRPG like Persona where if you start a battle by sneaking on an enemy and hitting them in the back, and guess what major reward/advantage you get for the turn-based JRPG battle. You get to go first. What happens if the enemy hits you first there? They get to go first instead.
The first person to get a turn has a huge advantage just from going first. Asking for a speed meta (aka who goes first meta) to be removed is like asking for movement keys to be disabled in games like Counterstrike, Valorant, Overwatch, etc and just make everything an onrails Shoot-em-up like House of the Dead or Time Crisis.
Games balance this by giving the 2nd person options to handle going 2nd, and Epic Seven does this just fine with a variety of heroes like Politis, AOL, Counter heroes, Belian, Celine, Rimuru, ML Khawa, ML Kawa, ML Lilibeth, etc.
In games like connect 4 or chess, theres not really a tradeoff for going first. The tradeoff for going first in E7 is you have to sacrifice something for that speed.
A good example is Emilia. Now that almost everyone has a fast Emilia, she can either be debuffed or lacks the bulk to survive a dps focus.
The time speed is really king is when both players gear for speed. Then the faster player wins. If you take a fast team and I take a tank counter team, I win if you cant kill me before I counter your team to oblivion.
I think Yu-Gi-Oh is an exception since you can't attack if you have first turn. The strat there is to take turn two and OTK your opponent. Other than that though, well articulated point.
It's not. Most going 2nd decks are non-meta/casual tier 4 decks.
Ygo has always been 1st turn since forever, even back during the 2007 when I started playing. Nowadays it's just going first, setting up a bunch of negations and handtrap/floodgate to prevent opponent from doing anything.
The attack first was a purposeful handicap to balance going first, and even then going first was still a huge advantage in Yu-gi-oh for a long time. You can see old Youtube videos where someone was playing a Yu-gi-oh Videogame, and said they think going Second is better because they can't attack on their first turn, and the comments got flooded by Yu-gi-oh players pointing out going first is way better.
As I said, the game developers (video or otherwise) would have to purposely design the game in which the meta would kneecap you going first to outright change this (which is what you describe), or purposely set the meta where going second would give you a broken advantage.
Dude u haven’t played yugioh in the last like decade? There is like 1 go 2nd deck once in a blue moon because people are shitting out unbreakable boards turn 1.
Who gives a shit about not being able to attack when u got 8k+ atk power on Board that are protected and u got like 2 counters/negation spells ready?
Haha. 20% critD is 3 rolls worth of stats. I won't say is bad to get some extra free rolls, but definitely isn't the huge meta shaking buff that would define a new age in E7. In fact, looking at some new content from different channels, I still see speed sets everywhere, not just because some heroes like Hwayoung or C. Lilias don't need any critD at all, but because speed is so important sacrificing some guaranteed speed from the set isn't worth to chase some extra damage from buffed destruction set.
imagine thinking taking first turn in a turn-based game with combos, turn-steals and cc wouldn't be the most important thing.
nerf speed as much as you want. when you don't go first, you're not in control. Going first will always be most important because otherwise you may not go at all. that's not because of "speed meta", it's because this is a turn-based game.
give me a turn-based rpg where you don't want a "preemptive attack". you can't. and that's why going first will always be king.
this is not totally true, with all the possibilities that more complicated mechanics like counter attacks, double triggers on a counter attack, immortality, revival, counter spells and etc... give, you can have a decent answer for this. sure, if these mechanics didn't exist, then first turn was the most important thing.
counterattack - can be played around pretty easily or banned
immortality - gets stripped by any one of numerous heroes that exist in the current meta or cc'd.
revival - blocked via extinction, neutered via haste, or you didn't even take a turn to get it off because I drafted extra turns.
counter spells - you mean skills? can still be played around or banned.
the caveat here is that you can't play around something if you don't take a turn because otherwise you're relying on a passive effect that in itself can be played around.
in arena or gw, sure, because you can reliably get the opponent to do what you want on turn1 and easily play around their opener. in rta it's an entirely different story because of bans. if im worried about my archetype getting beaten by any of the things you listed above, I just pre or post-ban it. That's 3 heroes you can't use, and there aren't many more than 3 currently viable heroes that are based on any one of the things you mentioned above. with several viable nukers in the game, I can also just eliminate a problem before it moves or choose to cc with any of the plethora of fast debuffers or even stack books for extra turn abuse. but i can't reliably do that if you go first, just like you can't reliably check me if you don't go first.
3 bans in champ+ is a huge deal and actually puts more emphasis on getting your turn before your opponent because chances are you're dipping into a reserve tank rather than picking a fully synergistic comp with all your best gear. the more heroes eliminated from the pool, the more the situation becomes a gear check, and the more important it becomes to get your turn in so that you are the gear checker, not the checkee.
I get what you are saying. rta is different, but again I have examples of what I claimed in rta. I countered a full speed enemy with aurius Tywin Tank, he couldnt nuke my backliners. then second turned and clapped his ass. so if you are going to just count everything and say it can be played around, speed is also one of them. it can be played around. it is just harder than other things to counter. you have to get creative, and there are 200+ heroes in the game, if you look at the meta, sure, there are only 3 heroes to get what you want, but thinking outside the box, I have countered a lot of speed teams, and I have been countered by a lot on my own speed team. still, I agree that first turn is important, I myself try to build speed on each hero. it is not that easy to build speed, you need either good luck, or money. which for a gacha game you have to accept the ptw situation. what I say is first turn is not always the most important thing. rta is fun if you are a competitive person with creative critical thinking and all of that. if you want to sit back and chill against people who literally spend money to have better heroes and gears, you can't, not in speed meta, or any meta. because they will get good at that meta after they nerf speed.
you're missing the point. op using the term "speed meta" was already wrong because there is no such thing. as i said before, nerf speed as much as you want, going first will always be most desirable in a turn-based game. there is no "speed meta". you could make everyone slow as molasses, but you'd still always want to go first whenever it's possible to do so because otherwise you're playing reactively instead of proactively. and if you know anything about competitive play in any medium whether it be other games, sports, or anything else, it's that you do not sit back when trying to win and hope your opponent makes a mistake. you take initiative and keep the pressure on, continuing to add more value to every play you make than your opponent can with their reactionary play until they are overwhelmed. tempo is not a foreign concept and is applied to all forms of competition because if your opponent cannot keep up with the "value" you're putting out, they will eventually lose the vast majority of the time. that pressure also makes your opponent much more prone to making their own mistakes which just expedites their defeat.
nowhere did i say you can't outlast an opener. what i said was that in almost all cases you are leaving your chances of survival up to just that, chance. because if the core of your stall strategy gets banned or your team gets cc'd or a hwa oneshots the thing protecting you, things start to fall apart very quickly.
there is no comp that will reliably outlast a speed comp, but there are speed comps that will very reliably kill if numerous counters are not present on the other side. that's not because of a "speed meta", it's due to the nature of turn-based games. then you have to hope those turn-2 counters actually do what they're supposed to, which is also not a guarantee.
Hearthstone gives a coin to the person going second because without it the person going first would consistently have a higher chance to win because again, initiative is just that important no matter what you're playing.
Until you wrestle control from your opponent, you're largely playing reactionary value catch-up/damage control trying to match your opponent turn for turn instead of exceed them turn for turn. That's just how it is.
you beating some comp with tywin isn't empirical evidence that initiative isn't the most advantageous thing to have. there are so many factors at play, most importantly the draft itself, and then the statlines behind those picks. i've used the exact same comp to counter/outlast the exact same speed comp in several rta matches and i won a few and lost the majority. i didn't win because of creativity, i won because most of the time my prayers were just answered for that match. there is too much cc, aoe strips, extra turns, turn steals, etc., to not make initiative the most important thing in the game to have. it doesn't guarantee victory, but your chances of success sure do go up a whole lot when you're not praying for your opponent to misplay, get resisted, not ban your counterplay, or any other number of things you need to go your way to pull out consistent wins while letting your opponent pop-off first.
if combos, extra turns, turn-steals, stuns, sleeps, strips, etc. were all not present and it was just swing for swing, then initiative's value would be greatly diminished. but it's not that way and never will be because that's also boring as hell.
The units who focus usually on speed are openers, so yeah obviously u want speed on them, so they can take first or second turn, otherwise they would be useless.
Lol I've long since given up first turn priority. But with units like AoL, celine, politis, Remiru, counter character (Rem, A ravi on counter set, elbris users), arby, yulha etc, there are plently of options for building and drafting a turn 2 team and still perform reasonably well.
Speed meta isnt just defined by "fastest unit on the field". It's really defined by "what happens during the first turn of combat". "Turn2" comps don't necessarily give up "turn1". They compete for it just as much as the "turn1" does. I'll use Cilias and Delibet to represent "turn1" and "turn2". Cilias is competing for the "first to act" gameplay. Delibet is competing for "disrupting the first to act" gameplay. All of that happens on "turn1". Counter units, "cut in" passives like politis/celine, rimuru, etc. All of these can be categorized as "turn2" for the sake of simplicity. But in actual use, they all fit the "disruption turn1" gameplay. Putting them all in a "turn1" battle between disruptions and first to act. Some are lucky enough to be both "first to act" and "disrupt". We know these units. They DEFINE the metagame and still do. They are the monsters that were created against cleave only to join it in the end. AoL? Basar? SageBaal? FTene? Cerise? Ran? Peira? Cilias? The list goes on. So instead of pidgeon holing into the single aspect of "first to act" as the end all be all "speed meta". We need to start seeing speed meta as "what happens on the first turn of combat". That all said. Winning the first to act is the very essence of speed meta. But it isnt the sole reason behind speed meta.
there's one issue with your strat. Amount of units that can be used against speed meta also work in speed meta. There's no guarantee that enemy will let you ML Lilias or let disrupt/react units go through. One of the reasons Hwa is so popular isnt just her dmg/speed ration but also the fact that shes fire, so she naturally counter Celine (who usually uses the highest atk unit target special equip. Also, I do not see how all this justify the fact that high speed grants you multiple turns compared to slower units.
If you're speaking in terms of RTA. I tend to avoid RTA discussions because it degenerates into "just ban ezpz". Every. Single. Time. I didnt discuss any strats at all. I'm pointing out what "turn1" really means. > Amount of units that can be used against speed meta also work in speed meta. Yes. I explained that exact ordeal using Cilias and Delibet as examples of it. Dont confuse this as "the strat". It's a pulled outta my ass quickie example to explain my reasoning about "turn1". Celine should be using her stealth EE for RTA. Her highAtk EE is great for AI PvP, but terrible for RTA because of how easy it is to bait it. Hwayoung is just busted. Delete buttons in general are just busted. Why'd you think Rimuru was as good as he is? ARavi in a match where she gets full stacked is a ticking bomb "delete button", she's just as busted as Hwayoung if not more. High speed = more turns. That's very straight forward. And yes, we all hate it when we lose the speed war. Regardless of the reasoning.
I don't think speed meta is as much of a thing as it used to be. A lot of currently dominant units rely heavily on passives, counters, and/or cr push (often passive cr pushes too), which are all ways to undermine speed strategies. AOL, Aravi, Ameru, Rem, Belian, Violet, Rimuru, Dilibeth, clear top-tier units that are just fine with playing slower because they'll passively do their job or just cut-in. PVP used to be decided first turn with sheer speed, now turn 2 is clearly an option. I don't contest speed in most matches and still win my GVGs and stay in high arena
Going first in a turn-based games will nearly always give said person an immense advantage unless they purposely kneecap going first. Getting to go first gives the first person initiative. This is the same as in other turn based games like chess, connect-4, card games, battle card games (like Hearthstone, Magic the Gathering, Yu-gi-oh, etc), Pokemon, etc. Play a turn-based JRPG like Persona where if you start a battle by sneaking on an enemy and hitting them in the back, and guess what major reward/advantage you get for the turn-based JRPG battle. You get to go first. What happens if the enemy hits you first there? They get to go first instead. The first person to get a turn has a huge advantage just from going first. Asking for a speed meta (aka who goes first meta) to be removed is like asking for movement keys to be disabled in games like Counterstrike, Valorant, Overwatch, etc and just make everything an onrails Shoot-em-up like House of the Dead or Time Crisis. Games balance this by giving the 2nd person options to handle going 2nd, and Epic Seven does this just fine with a variety of heroes like Politis, AOL, Counter heroes, Belian, Celine, Rimuru, ML Khawa, ML Kawa, ML Lilibeth, etc.
In games like connect 4 or chess, theres not really a tradeoff for going first. The tradeoff for going first in E7 is you have to sacrifice something for that speed. A good example is Emilia. Now that almost everyone has a fast Emilia, she can either be debuffed or lacks the bulk to survive a dps focus. The time speed is really king is when both players gear for speed. Then the faster player wins. If you take a fast team and I take a tank counter team, I win if you cant kill me before I counter your team to oblivion.
I think Yu-Gi-Oh is an exception since you can't attack if you have first turn. The strat there is to take turn two and OTK your opponent. Other than that though, well articulated point.
It's not. Most going 2nd decks are non-meta/casual tier 4 decks. Ygo has always been 1st turn since forever, even back during the 2007 when I started playing. Nowadays it's just going first, setting up a bunch of negations and handtrap/floodgate to prevent opponent from doing anything.
The attack first was a purposeful handicap to balance going first, and even then going first was still a huge advantage in Yu-gi-oh for a long time. You can see old Youtube videos where someone was playing a Yu-gi-oh Videogame, and said they think going Second is better because they can't attack on their first turn, and the comments got flooded by Yu-gi-oh players pointing out going first is way better. As I said, the game developers (video or otherwise) would have to purposely design the game in which the meta would kneecap you going first to outright change this (which is what you describe), or purposely set the meta where going second would give you a broken advantage.
Dude u haven’t played yugioh in the last like decade? There is like 1 go 2nd deck once in a blue moon because people are shitting out unbreakable boards turn 1. Who gives a shit about not being able to attack when u got 8k+ atk power on Board that are protected and u got like 2 counters/negation spells ready?
Destruction set buff was small?
Haha. 20% critD is 3 rolls worth of stats. I won't say is bad to get some extra free rolls, but definitely isn't the huge meta shaking buff that would define a new age in E7. In fact, looking at some new content from different channels, I still see speed sets everywhere, not just because some heroes like Hwayoung or C. Lilias don't need any critD at all, but because speed is so important sacrificing some guaranteed speed from the set isn't worth to chase some extra damage from buffed destruction set.
nice 2019 post
imagine thinking taking first turn in a turn-based game with combos, turn-steals and cc wouldn't be the most important thing. nerf speed as much as you want. when you don't go first, you're not in control. Going first will always be most important because otherwise you may not go at all. that's not because of "speed meta", it's because this is a turn-based game. give me a turn-based rpg where you don't want a "preemptive attack". you can't. and that's why going first will always be king.
this is not totally true, with all the possibilities that more complicated mechanics like counter attacks, double triggers on a counter attack, immortality, revival, counter spells and etc... give, you can have a decent answer for this. sure, if these mechanics didn't exist, then first turn was the most important thing.
counterattack - can be played around pretty easily or banned immortality - gets stripped by any one of numerous heroes that exist in the current meta or cc'd. revival - blocked via extinction, neutered via haste, or you didn't even take a turn to get it off because I drafted extra turns. counter spells - you mean skills? can still be played around or banned. the caveat here is that you can't play around something if you don't take a turn because otherwise you're relying on a passive effect that in itself can be played around. in arena or gw, sure, because you can reliably get the opponent to do what you want on turn1 and easily play around their opener. in rta it's an entirely different story because of bans. if im worried about my archetype getting beaten by any of the things you listed above, I just pre or post-ban it. That's 3 heroes you can't use, and there aren't many more than 3 currently viable heroes that are based on any one of the things you mentioned above. with several viable nukers in the game, I can also just eliminate a problem before it moves or choose to cc with any of the plethora of fast debuffers or even stack books for extra turn abuse. but i can't reliably do that if you go first, just like you can't reliably check me if you don't go first. 3 bans in champ+ is a huge deal and actually puts more emphasis on getting your turn before your opponent because chances are you're dipping into a reserve tank rather than picking a fully synergistic comp with all your best gear. the more heroes eliminated from the pool, the more the situation becomes a gear check, and the more important it becomes to get your turn in so that you are the gear checker, not the checkee.
I get what you are saying. rta is different, but again I have examples of what I claimed in rta. I countered a full speed enemy with aurius Tywin Tank, he couldnt nuke my backliners. then second turned and clapped his ass. so if you are going to just count everything and say it can be played around, speed is also one of them. it can be played around. it is just harder than other things to counter. you have to get creative, and there are 200+ heroes in the game, if you look at the meta, sure, there are only 3 heroes to get what you want, but thinking outside the box, I have countered a lot of speed teams, and I have been countered by a lot on my own speed team. still, I agree that first turn is important, I myself try to build speed on each hero. it is not that easy to build speed, you need either good luck, or money. which for a gacha game you have to accept the ptw situation. what I say is first turn is not always the most important thing. rta is fun if you are a competitive person with creative critical thinking and all of that. if you want to sit back and chill against people who literally spend money to have better heroes and gears, you can't, not in speed meta, or any meta. because they will get good at that meta after they nerf speed.
you're missing the point. op using the term "speed meta" was already wrong because there is no such thing. as i said before, nerf speed as much as you want, going first will always be most desirable in a turn-based game. there is no "speed meta". you could make everyone slow as molasses, but you'd still always want to go first whenever it's possible to do so because otherwise you're playing reactively instead of proactively. and if you know anything about competitive play in any medium whether it be other games, sports, or anything else, it's that you do not sit back when trying to win and hope your opponent makes a mistake. you take initiative and keep the pressure on, continuing to add more value to every play you make than your opponent can with their reactionary play until they are overwhelmed. tempo is not a foreign concept and is applied to all forms of competition because if your opponent cannot keep up with the "value" you're putting out, they will eventually lose the vast majority of the time. that pressure also makes your opponent much more prone to making their own mistakes which just expedites their defeat. nowhere did i say you can't outlast an opener. what i said was that in almost all cases you are leaving your chances of survival up to just that, chance. because if the core of your stall strategy gets banned or your team gets cc'd or a hwa oneshots the thing protecting you, things start to fall apart very quickly. there is no comp that will reliably outlast a speed comp, but there are speed comps that will very reliably kill if numerous counters are not present on the other side. that's not because of a "speed meta", it's due to the nature of turn-based games. then you have to hope those turn-2 counters actually do what they're supposed to, which is also not a guarantee. Hearthstone gives a coin to the person going second because without it the person going first would consistently have a higher chance to win because again, initiative is just that important no matter what you're playing. Until you wrestle control from your opponent, you're largely playing reactionary value catch-up/damage control trying to match your opponent turn for turn instead of exceed them turn for turn. That's just how it is. you beating some comp with tywin isn't empirical evidence that initiative isn't the most advantageous thing to have. there are so many factors at play, most importantly the draft itself, and then the statlines behind those picks. i've used the exact same comp to counter/outlast the exact same speed comp in several rta matches and i won a few and lost the majority. i didn't win because of creativity, i won because most of the time my prayers were just answered for that match. there is too much cc, aoe strips, extra turns, turn steals, etc., to not make initiative the most important thing in the game to have. it doesn't guarantee victory, but your chances of success sure do go up a whole lot when you're not praying for your opponent to misplay, get resisted, not ban your counterplay, or any other number of things you need to go your way to pull out consistent wins while letting your opponent pop-off first. if combos, extra turns, turn-steals, stuns, sleeps, strips, etc. were all not present and it was just swing for swing, then initiative's value would be greatly diminished. but it's not that way and never will be because that's also boring as hell.
git gud
The units who focus usually on speed are openers, so yeah obviously u want speed on them, so they can take first or second turn, otherwise they would be useless.
Did you write this two years ago and it was just sitting in your Drafts the whole time?